[Tagging] amenity=kennel

[Alberto]

Ok, because according to English native speakers there isn't a single word
that indicates "a facility where animals are kept and the staff feeds them
and cares of them", I propose to change from "amenity=kennel" to
"amenity=animal_shelter".
In Italy there are centers for dogs only, cats  only, dogs and cats, wild
animals in general, wild sea animals only, wild birds only and so on. Any
combination is potentially allowed, so adding a tag "dog=yes", "cat=yes",
"wild_animals=yes", "wild_birds=yes" and so on is useful.

"pet_keeping" is not used according to taginfo and it is too restrictive:
there are facilities that don't held pets but wild animals.

"building=asylum" is not intuitive and it's not used according to taginfo.
Moreover the key "building" is too restrictive for a center that can include
buildings, meadows, courtyards.

"Amenity=animal_boarding" is too restrictive: there are kennels that take
stray dogs, catteries for stray cats, rescue centers for wounded wild
animals.

On the other hand "amenity=animal_shelter" is intuitive and already in use
according to taginfo. Also "animal=shelter" is already in use: in the wiki
animal page it's suggested to use it, but on what basis? There isn't any
proposal page and it hasn't been voted.
Ultimately I think we have to unify "amenity=animal_shelter" and
"animal=shelter" in one tag, refine and officialize it. I think that with a
feature page and with a preset in editors, one of these could become an
universally used tag.
Then we can refine it and add one or more additional tags for the purpose of
the facility.
I prefer "amenity=animal_shelter" to "animal=shelter" because according to
wiki "amenities are an assortment of community facilities" and an animal
shelter is one of them.
On the other hand the key "animal" is not defined on the wiki and according
to taginfo it's often used to indicate a species of animal or simply
"animal=yes".
We have already "amenity=veterinary" and not "animal=veterinary", so why not
"amenity=animal_shelter"?
Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2012-09-13 23:38,  Steve Doerr wrote :
On
  13/09/2012 21:00, St Niklaas wrote:
  
  
  What about Asylum, for all animals and a
tag for the spieces, cats, dags, horses or guinea pigs ?

  
  
  That word has different connotations in English: either a lunatic
  asylum (outdated term for a hospital or home for the mentally ill)
  or political asylum (meaning the protection afforded by one
  country to refugees fleeing political oppression in their home
  countries).
  
  


If you look at its translations, asylum is certainly a word that
will be understood by all Indo-European languages. But not the
Russian, Ukrainian Bulgarian triplet.
But I don't see well which of your meanings applies to animals ;-)
Fortunately, in addition to the same "asile d'aliénés" and "asile
politique", French has "asile de paix" that's just a calm, resting
place without any restriction regarding the guests and their need
for protection.
BTOW, French étable (stable) is just for cows, not horses.

André.


  

  


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[Steve Doerr]

On 13/09/2012 21:00, St Niklaas wrote:

What about Asylum, for all animals and a tag for the spieces, cats, 
dags, horses or guinea pigs ?


That word has different connotations in English: either a lunatic asylum 
(outdated term for a hospital or home for the mentally ill) or political 
asylum (meaning the protection afforded by one country to refugees 
fleeing political oppression in their home countries).


--
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=kennel

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/9/13 Sax-Barnett, Melelani :
add additional tags like dogs=yes, cats=yes, etc., since these
facilities sometimes do take more than one kind of animal.


+1, we should do this, and it is already done ;-), you will find this
documented in the wiki and there is also data:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dog

One aspect we might talk about: will this better be tagged in the
singular (as suggested in the wiki = dog) or in the plural form (like
you suggested = dogs).

Looking at the above taginfo results it seems to be more popular to
use the singular form, but there is at least one big problem:  for
"horse" this doesn't work, as it is already in use for legal
access-restrictions (bridleways, ...).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

Am 13.09.2012 um 22:25 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer :

> 2012/9/13 Martin Vonwald :
>> Am 13.09.2012 um 21:30 schrieb "John F. Eldredge" :
>> Obviously there is no tag for it ;-) So I'll try to find some english 
>> speaking horse experts which may confirm or deny if this kind of area is in 
>> fact called open stable in english.
> the most important google hits are from german sites, I guess "open
> stable" is a translation of "Offenstall" that doesn't seem to work
> (sorry, just interpreting the comments from native English speakers in
> this thread).

The reason for this is that an open stable is very uncommon in the UK, maybe 
none exists there due to legal restrictions.


>> Assuming it is the correct term: what would be the most fitting key? I would 
>> use landuse.
> 
> -1, IMHO it would be better to tag a less specific landuse (like
> farmland or farmyard for instance). A suitable key might be "animal"
> (look it up in the wiki), together with horse=yes.

-1-1

An open stable is not a farm. Also it is clearly a land-use.

Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/9/13 Martin Vonwald :
> Am 13.09.2012 um 21:30 schrieb "John F. Eldredge" :
> Obviously there is no tag for it ;-) So I'll try to find some english 
> speaking horse experts which may confirm or deny if this kind of area is in 
> fact called open stable in english.


the most important google hits are from german sites, I guess "open
stable" is a translation of "Offenstall" that doesn't seem to work
(sorry, just interpreting the comments from native English speakers in
this thread).


> Assuming it is the correct term: what would be the most fitting key? I would 
> use landuse.


-1, IMHO it would be better to tag a less specific landuse (like
farmland or farmyard for instance). A suitable key might be "animal"
(look it up in the wiki), together with horse=yes.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20, 9

[St Niklaas]

> From: tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Tagging Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:13:53 +0100
> 
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> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:13:39 +0900
> From: Andrew Errington 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)
> Message-ID: <201209131813.39872.erringt...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:00:19 Martin Vonwald wrote:
> > 2012/9/13  :
> > > Thank you for your proposal.
> > > Couldn't we have some more general tagging for this purpose? Such
> > > facilities can generally keep other kinds of animals (like "SPA",
> > > "Soci?t? Protectrice des Animaux" in France) so why having a specific tag
> > > for dogs?
> >
> > Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first
> > thought was to simply use stables= until someone with much
> > better english language skills pointed out that stables usually only
> > refer to horses. I would also like to see one common tag for "some
> > place where animals are kept and taken care of". Any suggestions from
> > native speakers?
> 
> I'm not sure if a common tag would be ideal.
> 
> Off the top of my head we have 'stables', 'kennels' and 'cattery'.  Each name 
> is very specific.  Also, they are not limited to welfare (lost, abandoned or 
> abused animals), there are commercial businesses which look after animals 
> while their owners go on vacation.  Since they generally look after the same 
> kind of animal (not mixed), this should be indicated by the tag, i.e. 
> amenity=kennels, amenity=stables, amenity=cattery
> 
> For the welfare situation I suppose we could have amenity=animal_shelter, or 
> animal_sanctuary.  These generally do have a mix of animals, but of course 
> dogs and cats are most common.  There are also specialist shelters for birds, 
> seals, otters etc., but probably "animal_shelter" would cover those too.
> 
> Just my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Andre
>Hi Andrew & Co,What about Asylum, for all animals and a tag for the spieces, 
>cats, dags, horses or guinea pigs ?As follows, Building - asylum, (latin for 
>pension) that would not give much confusion.horses - yesYou dont have to tag 
>if the animal was found or just placed out of its home for a holiday ? With 
>fee - yes, value - weekGreetz Hendrik ___
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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

Am 13.09.2012 um 21:30 schrieb "John F. Eldredge" :

> At a guess, "open stable" probably refers to a shelter that has permanently 
> open doorways

No, but a stable/shelter is part of an open stable.
An open stable is characterised by 
* a large open-air area
* one or more shelters, accessible all the time
* feeding stations
* watering places

This whole area is an open stable. It's important that the different structures 
(shelter, feeding stations, ...) are not close to each other, so that the 
horses are forced to go more often and not stand still all day. 

Obviously there is no tag for it ;-) So I'll try to find some english speaking 
horse experts which may confirm or deny if this kind of area is in fact called 
open stable in english.

Assuming it is the correct term: what would be the most fitting key? I would 
use landuse.

BTW: paddock is one of the most horrible terms in english. Not even all native 
speakers agree with each other what I means. But that's a different story ;-)

Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

Am 13.09.2012 um 20:30 schrieb Dudley Ibbett :

> [1], [2], & [3] she would call a paddock.  The shelters in [1] and [2] she 
> would call "field shelters".
> 
> The small area in [4] would be a "turn out".
> 
> Not sure this helps!

What I'm looking for is a name/tag for the complete area, not the individual 
parts. That would be then the next step.

Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[John F. Eldredge]

SomeoneElse  wrote:

> Martin Vonwald wrote:
> > How would you tag an open stable? landuse=open_stable?
> > And how the feeding stations within the open stable?
> amenity=feeding_station?
> 
> You might want to link to a picture of an example - as an English 
> speaker I'm not sure exactly what an "open_stable" would be.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 

At a guess, "open stable" probably refers to a shelter that has permanently 
open doorways, or one side completely open, so that animals can move into and 
out of it at will.  Feed troughs are often located in such a structure to 
protect the feed from rain.

-- 
John F. Eldredge --  j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Dudley Ibbett]

Hi

I decided to get the wife to look at these.  She's the horse "expert".

[1], [2], & [3] she would call a paddock.  The shelters in [1] and [2] she 
would call "field shelters".

The small area in [4] would be a "turn out".

Not sure this helps!

Dudley



> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:11:39 +0200
> From: imagic@gmail.com
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station
> 
> 2012/9/13 Dudley Ibbett :
> > Hi
> >
> > In the UK we have field shelters for horses.  It can be very difficult to
> > get planning permission for a fixed building in a field so people have these
> > shelters that are movable.  This gets round the planning restriction.  Some
> > people do move them around to protect their fields so they would probably
> > need remapping on a regular basis.
> 
> What you describe is not an open stable. See below
> 
> > Our horse has an open stable (I think).  The door is left open and he is
> > free to come and go.  In this context I would probably map the area into
> > which he can go according to the tag landuse=meadow
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation
> >
> > Could this be a paddock or pen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddock
> > Paddocks are generally small fenced off areas.  I'm not sure when a Paddock
> > becomes a field!
> 
> No. A paddock is (usually) simply an area for grazing. But this term
> is also sometimes used for a small, fenced open-air area without any
> grass. An open stable may or may not contain an area for grazing, but
> always contains feeding stations, watering places and shelters. Have a
> look at the attached photos.
> In [1] you see two feeding stations in the background. In [2] you see
> the area for grazing. This area is usually not accessible for horses;
> otherwise there won't be any grass within days. In [3] you see another
> feeding station in the background. In [4] you see a watering place. In
> the background of [4] you see paddock boxes, i.e. stables with an
> attached small, fenced open-air area.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> Martin
> 
> [1] 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8PSzD0F9AEF5015wGlJtvcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
> [2] 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cqzX0WjoIvRLJbQHNoguxcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
> [3] 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FfGptElSx0d0RfNbIsHjfcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
> [4] 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gAIgfmz53PI2qVI1Y0tsbMw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

2012/9/13 Dudley Ibbett :
> Hi
>
> In the UK we have field shelters for horses.  It can be very difficult to
> get planning permission for a fixed building in a field so people have these
> shelters that are movable.  This gets round the planning restriction.  Some
> people do move them around to protect their fields so they would probably
> need remapping on a regular basis.

What you describe is not an open stable. See below

> Our horse has an open stable (I think).  The door is left open and he is
> free to come and go.  In this context I would probably map the area into
> which he can go according to the tag landuse=meadow
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation
>
> Could this be a paddock or pen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddock
> Paddocks are generally small fenced off areas.  I'm not sure when a Paddock
> becomes a field!

No. A paddock is (usually) simply an area for grazing. But this term
is also sometimes used for a small, fenced open-air area without any
grass. An open stable may or may not contain an area for grazing, but
always contains feeding stations, watering places and shelters. Have a
look at the attached photos.
In [1] you see two feeding stations in the background. In [2] you see
the area for grazing. This area is usually not accessible for horses;
otherwise there won't be any grass within days. In [3] you see another
feeding station in the background. In [4] you see a watering place. In
the background of [4] you see paddock boxes, i.e. stables with an
attached small, fenced open-air area.

Hope this helps!
Martin

[1] 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8PSzD0F9AEF5015wGlJtvcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
[2] 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cqzX0WjoIvRLJbQHNoguxcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
[3] 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FfGptElSx0d0RfNbIsHjfcw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink
[4] 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gAIgfmz53PI2qVI1Y0tsbMw9hZXChpmM2FaSiVFaMJw?feat=directlink

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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Dudley Ibbett]

Hi

In the UK we have field shelters for horses.  It can be very difficult to get 
planning permission for a fixed building in a field so people have these 
shelters that are movable.  This gets round the planning restriction.  Some 
people do move them around to protect their fields so they would probably need 
remapping on a regular basis.

Our horse has an open stable (I think).  The door is left open and he is free 
to come and go.  In this context I would probably map the area into which he 
can go according to the tag landuse=meadow  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vegetation

Could this be a paddock or pen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddock  Paddocks 
are generally small fenced off areas.  I'm not sure when a Paddock becomes a 
field!

Interestingly if you search on the OSM documentation on "paddock" it takes you 
to the Vegetation webpage.  

Dudley






> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:03:03 +0200
> From: imagic@gmail.com
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station
> 
> 2012/9/13 SomeoneElse :
> > Martin Vonwald wrote:
> >>
> >> How would you tag an open stable? landuse=open_stable?
> >> And how the feeding stations within the open stable?
> >> amenity=feeding_station?
> >
> >
> > You might want to link to a picture of an example - as an English speaker
> > I'm not sure exactly what an "open_stable" would be.
> 
> Open stable aka free stall barn aka loose barn. Contrary to a stable
> the animals have free access to a large open-air area. Within the open
> stable there are usually some watering places and feeding stations to
> provide food and water at any time.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:branch

[David ``Smith'']

On Sep 13, 2012 6:54 AM, "Andrew Errington"  wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> This is my first proposal for a key that I feel is missing.  I have
searched,
> but I couldn't find anything to suggest it has been rejected before, but I
> could be wrong.
>
> You will find the details here, but is basically a place to put the branch
> name for an office/bank/restaurant/store etc.:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:branch
>
> I think I've done the first steps for this proposal right, and I am quite
> happy to hear all comments, positive and negative.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andrew
>
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I like this idea.  Right off the bat I can think of several local use
cases, one of which is:
amenity=library
name=Hilliard Library
operator=Columbus Metropolitan Library
branch=Hilliard

Of course, it may be more correct to put some combination of operator and
branch into name, and then set loc_name=Hilliard Library because that's
what everyone calls it in casual speech.  But this tagging scheme provides
for a consistent, unambiguous, and obvious way to tag CML's various
locations apart from the broader problem of what to put in the name tag.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=kennel

[Sax-Barnett, Melelani]

Native speaker here too. How about amenity=animal_boarding instead of kennel? 
"Boarding" typically refers to places you can pay to leave your dogs, cats, 
horses, etc. for a period and have them be cared for. One could also add 
additional tags like dogs=yes, cats=yes, etc., since these facilities sometimes 
do take more than one kind of animal.

Sanctuaries and humane societies, as well as training facilities, etc. would be 
different tags.

Just my two cents!
-Mele Sax-Barnett

-Original Message-
Martin wrote:
> Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first 
> thought was to simply use stables= until someone with much 
> better english language skills pointed out that stables usually only 
> refer to horses. I would also like to see one common tag for "some 
> place where animals are kept and taken care of". Any suggestions from native 
> speakers?

I'm a native speaker...

Only few types of animal have specific names for where they are kept; the rest 
would come under "farm", "zoo", "wildlife park", "animal rescue" and perhaps 
"nature reserve".  Also, some countries have animal quarantine facilities.

The only ones that I can think of at short notice are:
 horse, donkey: stable
 dog: kennel
 cat: cattery
 birds: aviary, dovecote
 bees: apiary

There are several types of kennel, including boarding (for looking after pet 
dogs while you are away) and hunt kennels for hounds; also other working dogs 
e.g. police dogs, military dogs.  (Catteries are for boarding.)

Historically, rabbits were kept in artificial warrens that people built for 
them!  But now, commercial rearing of rabbits probably comes under "farm".  
There's probably a special word for where working ferrets are kept (English 
tends to have words like that), but I don't know what it is, and it might vary 
between dialects anyway.

__John



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End of Tagging Digest, Vol 36, Issue 21
***

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:branch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/9/13 Andrew Errington :
> You will find the details here, but is basically a place to put the branch
> name for an office/bank/restaurant/store etc.:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:branch


this seems to be already in wider use (more than 3000 times):
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/branch#values

Not all values seem to use the same classification, there is really a
lot of significations for "branch", e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_(disambiguation)

If I get your proposal right then I think this is also tagged with
"brand" (used ten times more):
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/brand#values
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

2012/9/13 SomeoneElse :
> Martin Vonwald wrote:
>>
>> How would you tag an open stable? landuse=open_stable?
>> And how the feeding stations within the open stable?
>> amenity=feeding_station?
>
>
> You might want to link to a picture of an example - as an English speaker
> I'm not sure exactly what an "open_stable" would be.

Open stable aka free stall barn aka loose barn. Contrary to a stable
the animals have free access to a large open-air area. Within the open
stable there are usually some watering places and feeding stations to
provide food and water at any time.

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Re: [Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[SomeoneElse]

Martin Vonwald wrote:

How would you tag an open stable? landuse=open_stable?
And how the feeding stations within the open stable? amenity=feeding_station?


You might want to link to a picture of an example - as an English 
speaker I'm not sure exactly what an "open_stable" would be.


Cheers,
Andy


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[Tagging] Open stable / feeding station

[Martin Vonwald]

Hi!

How would you tag an open stable? landuse=open_stable?
And how the feeding stations within the open stable? amenity=feeding_station?

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[André Pirard]

In French, we'd use the word *garderie*, garder=keep, like for keeping 
children for a while after school.

*Pet keeping* seems to only mean owning one at home.
The word *crèche* is used for daytime keeping, that is, preliminary school.
I see that /*pet crèche*/ is often used in English (most often after 
removing the accent).

Sounds very expressive to me.
The word *nursery* (a translation of crèche) doesn't seem adequate.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[Craig Wallace]

On 13/09/2012 10:13, Andrew Errington wrote:

Off the top of my head we have 'stables', 'kennels' and 'cattery'.  Each name
is very specific.  Also, they are not limited to welfare (lost, abandoned or
abused animals), there are commercial businesses which look after animals
while their owners go on vacation.  Since they generally look after the same
kind of animal (not mixed), this should be indicated by the tag, i.e.
amenity=kennels, amenity=stables, amenity=cattery


Not necessarily - many of the places I know will look after a mix of 
animals. Usually dogs and cats, sometimes also smaller animals, eg 
rabbits, guinea pigs etc. Though this may vary by country/area, but I 
think a mixture of animals is pretty common in the UK.
So I think a more generic tag would be best for this, eg 
amenity=animal_boarding, plus tags for what animals are looked after.


Plus that avoids confusion with kennels used for other purposes, eg 
breeding, or a group of working dogs.


 > For the welfare situation I suppose we could have 
amenity=animal_shelter, or

animal_sanctuary.  These generally do have a mix of animals, but of course
dogs and cats are most common.  There are also specialist shelters for birds,
seals, otters etc., but probably "animal_shelter" would cover those too.


Yes, animal shelters / animal rescue places are a different thing, so 
should have their own tag. amenity=animal_shelter makes sense for this.


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Re: [Tagging] Map for surface/smoothness?

[sylvain letuffe]

Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote
> 
> Am 11.09.2012 um 16:10 schrieb Georg Feddern :
> 
>> http://roads.osm4people.org/?zoom=7&lat=49.60305&lon=10.72137&layers=B0TFF
> 
> Thanks! This covers surface, but smoothness isn't supported as far as I
> can see.
> 

http://maps.refuges.info does have partial support for the smoothness tag,
however, rendering only does something on tracks and only for values "bad"
and worse

--
sly



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View this message in context: 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=kennel

[John Sturdy]

Martin wrote:
> Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first thought
> was to simply use stables= until someone with much better english
> language skills pointed out that stables usually only refer to horses. I
> would also like to see one common tag for "some place where animals are kept
> and taken care of". Any suggestions from native speakers?

I'm a native speaker...

Only few types of animal have specific names for where they are kept;
the rest would come under "farm", "zoo", "wildlife park", "animal
rescue" and perhaps "nature reserve".  Also, some countries have
animal quarantine facilities.

The only ones that I can think of at short notice are:
 horse, donkey: stable
 dog: kennel
 cat: cattery
 birds: aviary, dovecote
 bees: apiary

There are several types of kennel, including boarding (for looking
after pet dogs while you are away) and hunt kennels for hounds; also
other working dogs e.g. police dogs, military dogs.  (Catteries are
for boarding.)

Historically, rabbits were kept in artificial warrens that people
built for them!  But now, commercial rearing of rabbits probably comes
under "farm".  There's probably a special word for where working
ferrets are kept (English tends to have words like that), but I don't
know what it is, and it might vary between dialects anyway.

__John

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:branch

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

This is my first proposal for a key that I feel is missing.  I have searched, 
but I couldn't find anything to suggest it has been rejected before, but I 
could be wrong.

You will find the details here, but is basically a place to put the branch 
name for an office/bank/restaurant/store etc.:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:branch

I think I've done the first steps for this proposal right, and I am quite 
happy to hear all comments, positive and negative.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[Tagging] amenity=kennel

[Alberto]

I don't think stable is a good tagging for all animal shelters, as you and
other people say, stable is for horses.

In addition the proposal was to add a tag stable to a building or a part of
it. But a kennel for example is a wider area that includes buildings,
courtyards and meadows.

We can add a tag amenity=kennel (or any more general if we can find it) to
the whole area and then within it you can add building=yes, landuse=grass
and so on.

I think that the key amenity should be used, and do not introduce a new key.

About the more general tagging, what do you think about
amenity=animal_shelter with dog=yes or cat=yes or wild_animals=yes and so
on?

In this case a tag for each animal species accepted should be added, because
in the same structure you can host dogs and cats or different wild animal
species. So for example you cannot set at the same time stable=dog and
stable=cat.

In this way we could use amenity=animal_shelter also for animal recovery
centers held by WWF or any other associations. You can also add a tag
operator=*.

Last but not least, why don't we move to the Discussion Page, so anyone can
see this discussion, not only people subscribed to this mailing list?

Any suggestion from native speakers is welcome.

Alberto 

 

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:00:19 +0200

From: Martin Vonwald 

To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"



Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

Message-ID:

 


Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 

2012/9/13  <  te...@free.fr>:

> Thank you for your proposal.

> Couldn't we have some more general tagging for this purpose? Such
facilities can generally keep other kinds of animals (like "SPA", "Soci?t?
Protectrice des Animaux" in France) so why having a specific tag for dogs?

 

Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first thought
was to simply use stables= until someone with much better english
language skills pointed out that stables usually only refer to horses. I
would also like to see one common tag for "some place where animals are kept
and taken care of". Any suggestions from native speakers?

 

Martin

 

[1]  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Stable

 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/9/13 Andrew Errington :
> I'm not sure if a common tag would be ideal.
>
> Off the top of my head we have 'stables', 'kennels' and 'cattery'.  Each name
> is very specific.  Also, they are not limited to welfare (lost, abandoned or
> abused animals), there are commercial businesses which look after animals
> while their owners go on vacation.  Since they generally look after the same
> kind of animal (not mixed), this should be indicated by the tag, i.e.
> amenity=kennels, amenity=stables, amenity=cattery
>
> For the welfare situation I suppose we could have amenity=animal_shelter, or
> animal_sanctuary.  These generally do have a mix of animals, but of course
> dogs and cats are most common.  There are also specialist shelters for birds,
> seals, otters etc., but probably "animal_shelter" would cover those too.


There are already some tags in (sparse) use:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=animal%3Dshelter
The animal tag seems to be used also in an animal= way
( http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/animal#values ) but to avoid
multiple values this doesn't make much sense and is also documented
differently in the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Animal  (has an example for
animal=shelter, dog=yes)

And there is some amenity=animal_shelter in the db:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=animal_shelter

As there are differences between an animal_shelter for dogs and a
breeding kennel I agree that a new tag can be introduced. The proposal
should explain the differences and when to use which. The word
"kennel" seems to have several meanings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennel_(disambiguation) so I suggest to
be more explicit in the wording.

What about changing the kennel-proposal in order to introduce 2 new tags:
animal=breeding_kennel (for places where dogs are propagated) and
animal=boarding_kennel (for "dog hotels" that don't have a welfare
component and do not propagate animals)

and to propose unification of amenity=animal_shelter and animal=shelter to
animal=shelter (which is the suggested tagging according to several
wiki pages) for welfare related structures.
There is already a suggestion to add the animal that is dealt with
(dog=yes, cat=yes, ...) on the animal page in the wiki.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:00:19 Martin Vonwald wrote:
> 2012/9/13  :
> > Thank you for your proposal.
> > Couldn't we have some more general tagging for this purpose? Such
> > facilities can generally keep other kinds of animals (like "SPA",
> > "Société Protectrice des Animaux" in France) so why having a specific tag
> > for dogs?
>
> Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first
> thought was to simply use stables= until someone with much
> better english language skills pointed out that stables usually only
> refer to horses. I would also like to see one common tag for "some
> place where animals are kept and taken care of". Any suggestions from
> native speakers?

I'm not sure if a common tag would be ideal.

Off the top of my head we have 'stables', 'kennels' and 'cattery'.  Each name 
is very specific.  Also, they are not limited to welfare (lost, abandoned or 
abused animals), there are commercial businesses which look after animals 
while their owners go on vacation.  Since they generally look after the same 
kind of animal (not mixed), this should be indicated by the tag, i.e. 
amenity=kennels, amenity=stables, amenity=cattery

For the welfare situation I suppose we could have amenity=animal_shelter, or 
animal_sanctuary.  These generally do have a mix of animals, but of course 
dogs and cats are most common.  There are also specialist shelters for birds, 
seals, otters etc., but probably "animal_shelter" would cover those too.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [Tagging] Clarify tag access doc

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/9/13 Janko Mihelić :
> I think all those designated/official/yes are the same thing. They allow
> something to go through a certain way. What is different is the source of
> that allowance. If the source is law (access=yes, access:source=de:law) then
> it's official. If you have a "access:source=sign", then it's designated. If
> you don't have a source, then it's just "yes, you can pass here, don't ask
> me how I know".


I am not sure if introducing even more tagging variants really helps
us to make this issue easier.

If you want to tag some source I'd prefer to use the scheme
source:access=value, but "law" doesn't anyway make much sense to me
(there is always some law applicable, regardless of the
access-situation, e.g. also signs are defined by law.) and "de:law"
even less. Shouldn't that be "de:Gesetz"? Or "law:DE"? Then do we need
the country in the tag? Will there be cases where German law would be
applied outside Germany? How would you abbreviate a local "law" (e.g.
from the municipality)? Otherwise a simple "law" would be sufficient
to tag the applicable law for this kind of object (could also be
international treaties, local law, ...).

In the end it seems easier to stick a restricted set of a few well
defined (and already used) values instead of introducing new
confusion.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[Martin Vonwald]

2012/9/13  :
> Thank you for your proposal.
> Couldn't we have some more general tagging for this purpose? Such facilities 
> can generally keep other kinds of animals (like "SPA", "Société Protectrice 
> des Animaux" in France) so why having a specific tag for dogs?

Actually I just revived an old proposal for stables [1]. My first
thought was to simply use stables= until someone with much
better english language skills pointed out that stables usually only
refer to horses. I would also like to see one common tag for "some
place where animals are kept and taken care of". Any suggestions from
native speakers?

Martin

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Stable

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Re: [Tagging] Clarify tag access doc

[Martin Vonwald]

2012/9/13 Janko Mihelić :
> I think all those designated/official/yes are the same thing. They allow
> something to go through a certain way. What is different is the source of
> that allowance. If the source is law (access=yes, access:source=de:law) then
> it's official. If you have a "access:source=sign", then it's designated. If
> you don't have a source, then it's just "yes, you can pass here, don't ask
> me how I know".

This makes a lot of sense to me. However I doubt that we are able to
reduce the number of possible access-values: I expect too much
opposition.

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)

[teuxe]

Hi Alberto,

Thank you for your proposal.
Couldn't we have some more general tagging for this purpose? Such facilities 
can generally keep other kinds of animals (like "SPA", "Société Protectrice des 
Animaux" in France) so why having a specific tag for dogs?

We could add "dogs=yes" next to a more generic tag (that I don't know already).
Regards,

Teuxe


- Mail original -
De: "Alberto" 
À: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Envoyé: Jeudi 13 Septembre 2012 00:43:44
Objet: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (amenity=kennel)





Here the link to the proposal: 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kennel 

Thank you for any comment. 
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Re: [Tagging] Clarify tag access doc

[Janko Mihelić]

I think all those designated/official/yes are the same thing. They allow
something to go through a certain way. What is different is the source of
that allowance. If the source is law (access=yes, access:source=de:law)
then it's official. If you have a "access:source=sign", then it's
designated. If you don't have a source, then it's just "yes, you can pass
here, don't ask me how I know".

Janko
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