Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Warin]

On 11/11/18 17:49, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 at 12:34, Eugene Alvin Villar > wrote:


Just a suggestion. Under the "Additional tags routinely used would
include" section, name=* and country=* are listed. I think the
target=* tag (for the receiving country) should also be included
since it is already documented in the amenity=embassy page. (I am
not sure if "target" is a good term for this tag but it is already
in use so it might be okay to just adopt it as is.)


Would "host" be a nicer word?

But wouldn't it be covered by the name eg "Australian Embassy to Russia"?



Think you will find the name on the front of the embassy is "Australian 
Embassy" ... no to anything.


https://russia.embassy.gov.au/



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 at 12:34, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:

> Just a suggestion. Under the "Additional tags routinely used would
> include" section, name=* and country=* are listed. I think the target=* tag
> (for the receiving country) should also be included since it is already
> documented in the amenity=embassy page. (I am not sure if "target" is a
> good term for this tag but it is already in use so it might be okay to just
> adopt it as is.)
>

Would "host" be a nicer word?

But wouldn't it be covered by the name eg "Australian Embassy to Russia"?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Reversible Road tagging

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 2:06 PM Richard  wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 07:59:22PM +0100, yo paseopor wrote:
> > One little point
> >
> > Untill now GPS navigation is orientative, not compulsory, obligatory or
> > have-to-do. So instead your Osmand says you go in opposite direction, you
> > drive, you decide. No kamikaze please.
>
> correct, but it is not our intention to produce data that is better suited
> for
> kamikaze drivers than normal users.. is it?
>

Some misguided moron who thinks autonomous cars are less than 50 years away
(*cough*Musk*cough*) might try using a map in such a way with unwitting
customers.
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Re: [Tagging] Reversible Road tagging

[Paul Johnson]

Are we talking a 1 lane or a 3 lane road?  Because that looks like it's
describing a 3 lane road.

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 1:00 PM yo paseopor  wrote:

> One little point
>
> Untill now GPS navigation is orientative, not compulsory, obligatory or
> have-to-do. So instead your Osmand says you go in opposite direction, you
> drive, you decide. No kamikaze please.
>
> yopaseopor
> PD: conditional lanes tagging situation would be interesting with a new
> tag (forward/backward/reversible), for example...
>
> lanes:forward=1
> lanes:backward=1
> lanes:reversible=1
> reversible:forward=Mo-Su 07:00-09:00,15:30-17:30
> reversible:backward=Mo-Su 9:00-15:30
> reversible:closed=Mo-Su 17:30-07:00
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:12 PM Richard  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 08, 2018 at 04:05:49PM -0500, Jack Burke wrote:
>>
>> > Following the KISS principle, barrier node tagging might be the way to
>> go,
>> > at least initially.
>> >
>> > Barrier tagging Pros:
>> > * Easy to implement in routing (e.g., OsmAnd's routing.xml can process a
>> > node as barrier=1 or barrier=-1 based on the opening_hours times).
>>
>>
>> note that OsmAnd doesn't do any time dependent routing, or at it least it
>> didn't do it for a very long time.
>>
>> > Barrier tagging Cons:
>> > * Having a hard time thinking of any.
>>
>> might work to some extent but I see it as important deficit that the
>> directionality
>> of the road isn't modelled.. sooner or later it will cause disaster.
>> Imagine routers
>> to issue commands like "turn around and follow the road in opposite
>> direction" when the
>> diver missed an exit for example.
>> Also, just one single entry point that someone has forgotten to tag with
>> a barrier
>> or has the wrong time information and the router will send kamikaze
>> drivers in the wrong
>> direction into the expressway.
>>
>> My thought would be to have a variable time dependent number of lanes in
>> each
>> direction.
>>
>> Or "oneway" with conditional restrictions
>>  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions
>>
>> Richard
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Allan Mustard]

Good catch, Eugene, thanks.  Especially useful for missions to
multilateral organizations (e.g., EU, NATO, UN, WTO, Shanghai
Cooperation Organization, etc.)

On 11/11/2018 7:33 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> Just a suggestion. Under the "Additional tags routinely used would
> include" section, name=* and country=* are listed. I think the
> target=* tag (for the receiving country) should also be included since
> it is already documented in the amenity=embassy page. (I am not sure
> if "target" is a good term for this tag but it is already in use so it
> might be okay to just adopt it as is.)
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:25 PM Allan Mustard  > wrote:
>
> Kind folks,
>
> Comments on the proposal tapered off after Eugene's November 4
> post, so
> I plowed through the comments and have rewritten and moved the
> amenity=consulate proposal to office=diplomatic.  You may find the
> rewritten proposal here:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/office%3Ddiplomatic
>
> Now, unless there is consensus that we need another two weeks of
> comment, I intend within the next two days to submit this proposal
> for a
> vote.  If you object to this and believe we need another two weeks of
> comments since amenity=consulate was moved to office=diplomatic,
> please
> say so!  I'm happy either way, and thank you all for your interest,
> ideas, and comments.
>
> Very best regards to all,
> apm-wa
>
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Re: [Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Dave Swarthout]

Martin's example illustrates what I've been doing with bays and straits in
Alaska lately. Before I started doing this, all the bays in Alaska were
marked with simple nodes that were imported many years ago from GNIS or
somewhere. I hated that because they were all but invisible on most map
renderings. Now, I split the coastlines that define the bay into ways which
then become the boundaries of the bays, exactly as Mariusz Staniszewski did
with the Bay of Biscay. Finally, after looking at the bay's extent on the
USGS Topo map, I close the multipolygon with a way defining the end of the
bay. I copy the GNIS node tags to the multipolygon and then delete the
node.  Now, the GNIS data, the names and extent show up beautifully on the
OSM slippy map and presumably many other maps.

Straits were not marked in any way, neither by nodes from GNIS or other
mappers (Alaska has very few mappers and I'm the top OSM contributor
there). Now, with the help of multipolygons, I have a way to define straits
or narrows and to have the names render nicely. Take a look at the simple
multipolygon for Sitkalidak Passage (id:8891978) here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8891978#map=14/57.2123/-153.2423

So, it seems that label rendering is a function of both how a place like a
bay or strait is mapped as well as the realities of displaying labels in a
readable fashion. I'm excited to have put into place a system that works
quite nicely and doesn't duplicate any nodes to accomplish something I've
wanted to do since I started using OSM.

Cheers,

Dave



On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 3:14 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 10. Nov 2018 14:52 by hubais...@outlook.com:
>
> For OpenStreetMap rendrer:
>
> *https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?whereami=1=-1.406%2C0.220#map=3/-18.56/24.43
> *
>
> *Somalia, Madagasikara,Yemen **اليمن, Oman **عمان will be best if they
> have a rotate angle*
>
> *India does not appear, Kynia has a chance to appear if Somalia has rotate
> angle also Ghana have chance to appear if down vertically*
>
>
> Note that Default map style  on the OSM main page is not using place nodes
> for rendering countries.
>
>
> It is using relations like https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/305138
>
>
> And, yes it is ignoring label role as it is a horrible idea.
>
>
> --
>
>
> Different map styles require different label placement (as different map
> styles display
>
>
> different objects, may use labels in different languages, labels may use
> different style
>
>
> and it may be desirable to avoid blocking some objects with label - for
> example standard map
>
>
> may prefer label of coastal town to be placed on sea, map displaying sea
> routes would prefer
>
>
> to place town label inland). As result placement of this nodes is
> optimized for specific map styles,
>
>
> making them form of tagging for the renderer. )
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

Just a suggestion. Under the "Additional tags routinely used would include"
section, name=* and country=* are listed. I think the target=* tag (for the
receiving country) should also be included since it is already documented
in the amenity=embassy page. (I am not sure if "target" is a good term for
this tag but it is already in use so it might be okay to just adopt it as
is.)

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:25 PM Allan Mustard  wrote:

> Kind folks,
>
> Comments on the proposal tapered off after Eugene's November 4 post, so
> I plowed through the comments and have rewritten and moved the
> amenity=consulate proposal to office=diplomatic.  You may find the
> rewritten proposal here:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/office%3Ddiplomatic
>
> Now, unless there is consensus that we need another two weeks of
> comment, I intend within the next two days to submit this proposal for a
> vote.  If you object to this and believe we need another two weeks of
> comments since amenity=consulate was moved to office=diplomatic, please
> say so!  I'm happy either way, and thank you all for your interest,
> ideas, and comments.
>
> Very best regards to all,
> apm-wa
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

Mateusz,

The problem is how to get enough agreement and understanding to correct the
Wiki. You can see how difficult that would be when even the regular
contributors to the tagging list can't agree on what's correct. Imagine how
overwhelmed new mappers must feel when they work on their first relations.
Hell, until a few weeks ago, I tried never to get involved with any but the
simplest ones. I have created many riverbank multipolygons and grouped a
few geographic features, like the Groble ponds that began this thread, but
even those uses involved lots of back and forth among us.

Yes, the Wiki is far from perfect. That's a big reason we have these
endless debates. But how should we go about fixing it? An additional issue
for me is the difficulty of adding information to the Wiki. I've been a
programmer in my earlier life so I'm not a newbie when it comes to looking
at and interpreting code but the markup language for the Wiki is, IMHO,
simply horrible.  Someone once suggested I write up a Proposal for a tag I
was thinking about. No thanks. I have better things to do with my time than
to try to learn how that infernal formatting works.

Best,
Dave

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 3:21 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 8. Nov 2018 02:59 by daveswarth...@gmail.com:
>
> Another part of the problem is the Wiki that we treat as our bible.
>
>
> I  am not sure whatever anyone present on this mailing list is doing this.
> In case that someone is doing it: remember that WIki is missing plenty of
> documentation
> and many parts are outdated or represent rather who was last editor rather
> than reality.
>
> Anyway, I encourage everybody to improve problematic pages.
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

8. Nov 2018 02:59 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :


> Another part of the problem is the Wiki that we treat as our bible. 

I  am not sure whatever anyone present on this mailing list is doing this.In 
case that someone is doing it: remember that WIki is missing plenty of 
documentationand many parts are outdated or represent rather who was last 
editor rather than reality.
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Re: [Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10. Nov 2018 14:52 by hubais...@outlook.com :


>
> For OpenStreetMap rendrer:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?whereami=1=-1.406%2C0.220#map=3/-18.56/24.43
>  
> 
>
> Somalia, Madagasikara,Yemen> اليمن> , Oman> عمان>  will be best if they have 
> a rotate angle
>
> India does not appear, Kynia has a chance to appear if Somalia has rotate 
> angle also Ghana have chance to appear if down vertically
>




Note that Default map style  on the OSM main page is not using place nodes for 
rendering countries.




It is using relations like https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/305138 





And, yes it is ignoring label role as it is a horrible idea.




--





Different map styles require different label placement (as different map styles 
display 





different objects, may use labels in different languages, labels may use 
different style 





and it may be desirable to avoid blocking some objects with label - for example 
standard map 





may prefer label of coastal town to be placed on sea, map displaying sea routes 
would prefer




to place town label inland). As result placement of this nodes is optimized for 
specific map styles, 





making them form of tagging for the renderer. )


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 110, Issue 70

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Jack Burke  wrote:

>
> Unfortunately, there *are* people out there who seem to blindly follow
> instructions from their GPS navigation system and don't really do much
> in the way of thinking
>

This is a point worth remembering.  Every couple of years there's a story
about somebody who
drove his car up a goat track with nowhere to turn around because he
blindly followed his GPS.
Or who drove off a cliff, same reason.

The newspapers usually conclude that this is a fault in the GPS software.
I'd bet that in most
(probably all) cases this is a fault in the operator.  Many in-car GPS
units have three modes of
operation: shortest route, fastest route, and walking route.  Guess which
one of those three leads
to being stuck up a goat track or driving off a cliff.  PEBSWAG (steering
wheel and GPS).

People DO blindly assume the GPS is right.  Even when reality appears to
contradict it.  So it's
a good idea to ensure that the GPS is right.  Especially when lane
reversals are involved.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 110, Issue 70

[Jack Burke]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:02 AM  wrote:
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 21:04:57 +0100
> From: Richard 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Reversible Road tagging
> Message-ID: <20181109200457.GA3881@rz.localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 07:59:22PM +0100, yo paseopor wrote:
> > One little point
> >
> > Untill now GPS navigation is orientative, not compulsory, obligatory or
> > have-to-do. So instead your Osmand says you go in opposite direction, you
> > drive, you decide. No kamikaze please.
>
> correct, but it is not our intention to produce data that is better suited for
> kamikaze drivers than normal users.. is it?

Unfortunately, there *are* people out there who seem to blindly follow
instructions from their GPS navigation system and don't really do much
in the way of thinking

> > yopaseopor
> > PD: conditional lanes tagging situation would be interesting with a new tag
> > (forward/backward/reversible), for example...
> >
> > lanes:forward=1
> > lanes:backward=1
> > lanes:reversible=1
> > reversible:forward=Mo-Su 07:00-09:00,15:30-17:30
> > reversible:backward=Mo-Su 9:00-15:30
> > reversible:closed=Mo-Su 17:30-07:00
>
> Imho conditional restrictions have everything we need, it provides perhaps a 
> little
> bit more than that and we should pick one preferred method.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions#Evaluation_of_conflicting_restrictions
> - mentions lanes and directional restrictions explicitly
>
> so perhaps
> lanes=0
> lanes:forward:conditional=2 @ (09:00-17:00)
> lanes:backward:conditional=2 @ (17:01-8:59)

Well...this might work.

> I suspect there might be some places already tagged somehow similar like this
> but can't find them now..

If you do find them, please let me know, because I'd love to see
exactly how the tagging is done, and how routers handle it.

> As it has not been implemented in any routers that I know about it might be
> good to ask in the issue trackers of some routers if they have an idea what
> would be reasonably easy to implement.
>
> Richard

That's exactly what I intend to do.  I wanted to get a discussion
going here, first, with ideas, so that they'd have something to think
about.

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Re: [Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Kevin Kenny]

On 11/10/18 8:52 AM, دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar Alathar-Yemen 
wrote:


For OpenStreetMap rendrer:

*https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?whereami=1=-1.406%2C0.220#map=3/-18.56/24.43*

*Somalia, Madagasikara,Yemen **اليمن, Oman **عمانwill be best if they 
have a rotate angle*


*India does not appear, Kynia has a chance to appear if Somalia has 
rotate angle also Ghana have chance to appear if down vertically*


**

*In MAPS.ME android*

*Seas: Red sea, Persian Gulf and many other seas will be view better 
with rotate angle*


**

*In All map renderers name of Sweden and Norway can be in middle if it 
have a rotate angle*


**

We all agree that rotated labels - or even better, curved labels - would 
improve the rendering.Most of us are arguing that having mappers tag 
place=* nodes with an angle is the wrong way to achieve this.


The renderer that I use for my personal experiments doesn't even use 
place=* nodes if there is a corresponding administrative boundary, 
because it has more flexibility in label placement if it ignores them.


I do intend at some point to experiment with implementing a Mapnik 
symbolizer that can do curved labels on area features - they'd be ideal 
for island chains (Japan, Hawai`i), chains of lakes, and mountain 
ranges, as well as for elongated countries like Chile or Norway, or 
elongated waterbodies such as the Adriatic Sea, the Gulf of Bothnia or 
Lake Nyasa.


If mappers were to specify rotation on place nodes, it would only get in 
the way of doing it right - for instance, the renderer would no longer 
be free to choose a different layout to avoid collisions.


It's awkward, too, for alternative renderers, such as navigation 
displays, that are not always north-at-the-top. I've done one (very 
simple) rendering at one point for a talk about a fire tower - it showed 
the plotting board of an Osborne alidade, with labels oriented to face 
the observer - labels at the near edge of the map would be upside down! 
A simple rotation of labels would not have been easy to compute, since 
the device also does not use anything resembling spherical Mercator, but 
rather a general perspective projection.




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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Allan Mustard]

John and Warin are correct.  These are not government offices.  They are
either contractors (private firms with a government contract) or
lawyers/paralegals offering visa application assistance.

When I was posted to Istanbul three decades ago, before computers took
over, some enterprising fellows with typewriters set up folding tables
and chairs on the sidewalk across the street from the American Consulate
General in Tepebashi.  For a fee they would type up visa applications in
English for Turks who spoke no English and had no access to a
typewriter.  They were certainly not U.S. government employees but they
provided visa application services.  A photo studio around the corner
specialized in visa photos that met U.S. requirements.  The offices you
want to tag are rather similar in terms of the services offered and
rendered.  They just have real offices, digital cameras, dactylographic
scanners, and desktop computers connected to the Internet these days.

On 11/8/2018 5:05 AM, John Willis wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government
>> authority/branch/department/etc
>> 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
>> 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
>> 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
>> 5) it is not within the country where the visa is used
> if they don’t issue visas, they are immigration or travel
> paralegals/lawyers. this sounds like people assisting tourists. An
> office assisting people trying to get *residence* in a country is
> certainly an immigration lawyer.  
>
> This does sound like something completely different than the
> amenity=immigration I am thinking of. 
>
> I am unsure of a tag - but simply office=visa should be out.
> office=travel assistance or visa assistance or something. 
>
> Javbw
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Allan Mustard]

This is a contractor, so it is not a government office.  The U.S.
government does this also in high-volume consular districts. 
Application is made through a contractor, though the interview takes
place in the consulate.  Office=visa_application would be more accurate,
since visa adjudication still takes place in the consulate.


On 11/8/2018 12:37 PM, Johnparis wrote:
> I tagged one of these office=visa the other day.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4374770543
>
> The offices I'm thinking of are private companies that have government
> contracts to provide services that the government itself would
> normally provide. In many cases they are indistinguishable from a
> government office, so the question of verifiability enters my mind.
>
> For instance, the UK visa office in Paris has big signs outside and
> inside reading "Welcome to Great Britain". I'm frankly not sure if the
> space is rented by the UK or by TLS Contact, which holds the contract.
>
> https://corp.tlscontact.com
>
> Their staff members gather the information for your application,
> including fingerprints, photos, etc., as well as your passport. They
> then seal this in a clear plastic container. After it is sealed, you
> cannot add or remove anything. The fee is set by the UK and paid to
> TLS Contact.
>
> The dossier then goes to London, where a decision is made on your visa
> and the entire dossier is returned to Paris. You pick it up next door
> to the original office from someone behind bulletproof glass. (You
> don't learn the nature of the decision till you look at your
> passport.) This is the only way to get a UK visa in Paris. If you go
> to the UK Embassy or Consulate, they will direct you to the visa office.
>
> Is this an "office=government"? It certainly is quasi-governmental. Do
> they provide visa services? Surely yes, in my mind. In fact, they are
> the only place in Paris that provide visa services for the UK. If you
> want to get any kind of visa -- long term (expat), tourist, transit --
> that's where you go.
>
> So (agreeing with John Willis) I'd say office=visa for these.
>
> John
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 6:16 AM John Willis  > wrote:
>
> Is the office full of people who you pay to help you apply? Or are
> they contracted to be the front-otfice of the agency (acceptance &
> distribution)? В 
>
> It seems to be the latter.В 
>
> Think of taxes.В 
>
> The office where you submit taxes, and an office where a
> professional helps you prepare the forms are two different places.В 
>
> Office=tax_preparation and office=tax are different.В 
>
>
> If this is some office (public or private) with an official
> mandate to accept applications and distribute visas (whether
> approved onsite immidately or approved elsewhere and mailed to the
> office for distribution), that does sound like office=visa.В 
>
> If it is some private business who you pay to help you prepare the
> form, and you mail it to the government and get your visa
> directly, it sounds like office=visa_preperation or
> office=immigration_lawyer.В 
>
> I am unfamiliar with the situation you described - so please
> choose the best tag that suits your needs.В 
>
> Javbw
>
> On Nov 8, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:29 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government
 authority/branch/department/etc
 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
>>
>> It is an office you go to. You present documents, they ask
>> questions, you answer, you pay a fee,
>> the office fills out forms using that information provided
>> (and they then send it off to an embassy/consulate)
>> and then some time later you get a visa back from the office
>> (but the visa itself is actually from the embassy/consulate).
>>
>> In the above situation, what is wrong with office=visa ? You
>> apply to the office, they (usually) get you a visa.
>>
>>
>> Here, the Japanese consulate never accepts direct visa
>> application and instructs people to only submit visa applications
>> through accredited travel agencies.
>>
>> On the other hand, many European consulates here contract a
>> 3rd-party visa processing company such as the aforementioned VFS
>> Global to handle all visa applications. These companies even have
>> equipment to collect biometric data such as photographs and
>> fingerprints that will be forwarded to the consulates together
>> with the visa applications.
>>
>>  

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Allan Mustard]

Sometimes, you can.  It depends on the type of liaison office.  AIT and
TECRO both issue visas.  The State of Virginia office in New Delhi,
obviously not.


On 11/10/2018 9:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> You can not usually get a visa from a liaison office, or can you?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Nov 2018, at 06:23, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
> I plowed through the comments and have rewritten and moved the
> amenity=consulate proposal to office=diplomatic.  You may find the
> rewritten proposal here:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/office%3Ddiplomatic


There has been a lot of discussion and it certainly is impossible to satisfy 
everyone. The current iteration of the proposal in my eyes would seem like a 
step back, if we look only at the main tag.

Currently we can identify embassies with just one standard tag, and although it 
is not perfect because consulates are mixed in, which have a different 
diplomatic status, I would say it “works” for most applications (also because 
the name and further tags often make it clear what kind of diplomatic 
representation it is). If you are in need of a visa, a consulate might work 
just as well.

If we start moving these into a new tag office=diplomatic, with the definition 
“Diplomatic, consular, or non-diplomatic representation of a foreign country or 
subnational government in a host country as defined by the Vienna Convention on 
Diplomatic Relations, Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, UN Charter, 
other multilateral agreement on diplomatic missions, or bilateral agreement.”, 
in other words it now includes also non-diplomatic representations, i.e. has 
become a broader category, hence less information, at least with basic tagging. 
You can not usually get a visa from a liaison office, or can you?

Plus the potential confusion with private companies that offer support or 
consultancy for diplomatic procedures (e.g. visa applications), as were 
mentioned in this thread before.

Even if I don’t agree with the main choice, I still see good value in the 
proposal. You have documented a lot of useful subtags, thank you for this! 
Provided a lot of these properties are added on an object, it wouldn’t really 
matter what the main tag is, but in reality many mappers just add one tag and a 
name, so it may take time until we reach at a decent level of dissemination, 
and in the meantime we’d sometimes not be able to distinguish facilities which 
offer diplomatic services to citizens from those that don’t.

The subtags work with any main tag, so this part is much appreciated anyway. ;-)


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Dave F]

On 10/11/2018 15:08, Greg Troxel wrote:

Dave F  writes:


On 10/11/2018 14:46, Greg Troxel wrote:

Dave F  writes:


Every tag is for the renderer, otherwise all maps would be black lines
& dots. As your link clearly states:
/"Don't deliberately enter data *incorrectly* for the renderer"
/

The tag 'layer' is purely to aid renderings.

That's not true.  It represents things being above and below each other,

And is used solely by renders to distinguish what you said. However
'Layer' provides no real world interpretation of height distance
between objects.

It does not provide height, but it provides ordering.


...for the renderer. Who else do you think uses this data


   Which is still
real world data, just less granularity.


In the case of tag saying what angle to draw something, that's a
specific drawing instruction, and I don't think it belongs.

Along with an angle, a position tag for the label would be useful to
avoid annoyances where it renders outside the perimeter of
irregular.shaped polygons.

So would saying that a particular object should be green.  Once you add
specific drawing instructions, I don't see how to draw the line.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:colour

but that doesn't make it compulsory. These meta tags are a *aid* or 
suggestion.




Can this really not be computed by renderers?   It just seems like an
optimization problem.



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Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Nov 2018, at 07:01, دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar Alathar-Yemen 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am talking about nodes not areas or ways. Most of seas in OSM are tagged on 
> node element. Also countries most of them are tagged on node element


these country nodes come from the old days when we hadn’t administrative 
boundaries. Today we have all or maybe almost all countries as detailed 
boundaries.


It is true the seas are mostly mapped as nodes although there are some parts 
mapped as polygons, e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7156290

From a data point of view, adding an angle to a node to specify a label 
orientation will likely be rejected as tagging meta information that is not 
objectively observable, but one could say the tag is about the principal 
orientation of the represented waterbody and it would be much harder to 
question it ;-)

As a node doesn’t have orientation nor extent, the information could be 
valuable.

From a practical point of view, for rendering, a line for label placing seems a 
better solution as it gives indications about scale, orientation but also shape 
(e.g. curved). There are tools around that can calculate the line from areas. 
Drawing them yourself would also be an option, there are not so many of these 
if you are only interested in seas and oceans. It might be interesting to see 
alternatives to osm for those, e.g. Natural Earth has global simplified water 
areas with names.

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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Greg Troxel]

Dave F  writes:

> On 10/11/2018 14:46, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> Dave F  writes:
>>
>>> Every tag is for the renderer, otherwise all maps would be black lines
>>> & dots. As your link clearly states:
>>> /"Don't deliberately enter data *incorrectly* for the renderer"
>>> /
>>>
>>> The tag 'layer' is purely to aid renderings.
>> That's not true.  It represents things being above and below each other,
>
> And is used solely by renders to distinguish what you said. However
> 'Layer' provides no real world interpretation of height distance
> between objects.

It does not provide height, but it provides ordering.  Which is still
real world data, just less granularity.

>> In the case of tag saying what angle to draw something, that's a
>> specific drawing instruction, and I don't think it belongs.
>
> Along with an angle, a position tag for the label would be useful to
> avoid annoyances where it renders outside the perimeter of
> irregular.shaped polygons.

So would saying that a particular object should be green.  Once you add
specific drawing instructions, I don't see how to draw the line.

Can this really not be computed by renderers?   It just seems like an
optimization problem.

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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 2:47 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

In the case of tag saying what angle to draw something, that's a
> specific drawing instruction, and I don't think it belongs.


Not on labels.  On (some) objects such as benches and tourist maps we
already have tags to
represent the direction they face.  Those directional tags currently have
no effect on the standard
carto but could do so in the future (particularly if we move to vector
tiles).  Those direction tags
describe reality on the ground in greater detail and may or not be
reflected by the renderer.  Labels
are not reality on the ground but a cosmetic feature which should be up to
the renderer, not the
tagger.  The fix to labels, if one is necessary, should be implemented in
the renderer, not by tagging.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Dave F]

On 10/11/2018 14:46, Greg Troxel wrote:

Dave F  writes:


Every tag is for the renderer, otherwise all maps would be black lines
& dots. As your link clearly states:
/"Don't deliberately enter data *incorrectly* for the renderer"
/

The tag 'layer' is purely to aid renderings.

That's not true.  It represents things being above and below each other,


And is used solely by renders to distinguish what you said. However 
'Layer' provides no real world interpretation of height distance between 
objects.




In the case of tag saying what angle to draw something, that's a
specific drawing instruction, and I don't think it belongs.


Along with an angle, a position tag for the label would be useful to 
avoid annoyances where it renders outside the perimeter of 
irregular.shaped polygons.



Cheers
DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Greg Troxel]

Dave F  writes:

> Every tag is for the renderer, otherwise all maps would be black lines
> & dots. As your link clearly states:

> /"Don't deliberately enter data *incorrectly* for the renderer"
> /
>
> The tag 'layer' is purely to aid renderings.

That's not true.  It represents things being above and below each other,
which is useful for more than drawing.

In the case of tag saying what angle to draw something, that's a
specific drawing instruction, and I don't think it belongs.  The right
angle depends on the map designer's intent and a lot of other things.
It seems far better for renderers to decide 1) if they want angled text
at all -- which is a major design choice and 2) hwo to choose the angle.


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Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Dave F]

Every tag is for the renderer, otherwise all maps would be black lines & 
dots. As your link clearly states:


/"Don't deliberately enter data *incorrectly* for the renderer"
/

The tag 'layer' is purely to aid renderings.

Cheers

DaveF


On 09/11/2018 18:04, OSMDoudou wrote:


Looks like encouraging “tagging for the renderer”.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:25 AM Allan Mustard  wrote:

>
> Now, unless there is consensus that we need another two weeks of
> comment, I intend within the next two days to submit this proposal for a
> vote.
>

Go for it.

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar Alathar-Yemen]

For OpenStreetMap rendrer:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?whereami=1=-1.406%2C0.220#map=3/-18.56/24.43
Somalia, Madagasikara,Yemen اليمن, Oman عمان will be best if they have a rotate 
angle
India does not appear, Kynia has a chance to appear if Somalia has rotate angle 
also Ghana have chance to appear if down vertically

In MAPS.ME android
Seas: Red sea, Persian Gulf and many other seas will be view better with rotate 
angle

In All map renderers name of Sweden and Norway can be in middle if it have a 
rotate angle


من: OSMDoudou
إرسال: ‏السبت,‏ ‏02 ‏ربيع الأول,‏ ‏1440 ‏11:15 ‏ص
إلى: Tag discussion, strategy and related 
tools
الموضوع: Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

Can you show an example of where it’s not appearing properly ?

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Re: [Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Marc Gemis]

Because all countries are mapped with relations of type boundary...

Op za 10 nov. 2018 12:12 schreef دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar
Alathar-Yemen  I think I did not understand you, because in https://overpass-turbo.eu/
>
> Query:
>
> node
>
>   [place=country];
>
> out;
>
>
>
> outputs nearly all countries
>
> and query
>
> area
>
>   [place=country]
>
>   ;
>
> out;
>
>
>
> outputs only 3 countries
>
>
> --
> *من:* Mateusz Konieczny 
> *‏‏تم الإرسال:* Saturday, November 10, 2018 12:59:29 PM
> *إلى:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> *‏‏الموضوع:* Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle
>
> Can you give example of a country not
>
> mapped as an area and incorrectly
>
> mapped as a node?
>
> 10. Nov 2018 07:01 by hubais...@outlook.com:
>
> I am talking about nodes not areas or ways. Most of seas in OSM are tagged
> on node element. Also countries most of them are tagged on node element
>
>
> --
> *من:* Kevin Kenny 
> *‏‏تم الإرسال:* 01/ربيع الأول/1440 09:09 م
> *إلى:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> *‏‏الموضوع:* Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle
>
> ‪On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 12:06 PM ‫دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar
> Alathar-Yemen‬‎  wrote:‬
>
> I suggest new tag to tell map render to draw the node name with a
> specified rotate angle not horizontal. We need this for some seas like Red
> Sea, and Suez Gulf in Egypt.
>
>
> I have serious doubts whether encoding the rendering in the map in such a
> way is a good idea.
>
> A renderer that wished to label an area with an angled label could readily
> determine the angle for itself, by computing the principal axes of the
> area, and if its eccentricity exceeds a specified value, rotating the label
> to align with the major axis.
>
> An even better rendering could be achieved by computing the morphological
> skeleton of the area, and placing the label along some smooth curve that
> approximates the medial axis.
>
> There are also algorithms that handle curved label placement in the
> presence of interfering labels, although they are somewhat less well
> developed. One such is described in Mathieu BARRAULT, "A methodology for
> placement and evaluation of area map labels." _Computers, Environment and
> Urban Systems_ 25 (2001), pp. 33-52.
>
> http://geoinformatics.ntua.gr/courses/admcarto/lecture_notes/name_placement/bibliography/barrault_2001.pdf
>
> Barrault describes the process of choosing a family of circular arcs that
> well approximate the general contour of an area feature. Figure 3 of the
> paper is informative about what criteria his heuristic takes into account
> for 'goodness' of placement. Figures 10 and 11 show what the algorithm
> achieves on sample elongated figures and Figures 13-14 show what it can do
> in the presence of interfering labels.
>
> To place this task on the mapper forecloses on the possibility that a
> renderer can do it better.
>
> ___
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>
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[Tagging] رد: رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar Alathar-Yemen]

I think I did not understand you, because in https://overpass-turbo.eu/
Query:
node
  [place=country];
out;

outputs nearly all countries
and query
area
  [place=country]
  ;
out;

outputs only 3 countries


من: Mateusz Konieczny 
‏‏تم الإرسال: Saturday, November 10, 2018 12:59:29 PM
إلى: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
‏‏الموضوع: Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

Can you give example of a country not

mapped as an area and incorrectly

mapped as a node?

10. Nov 2018 07:01 by hubais...@outlook.com:

I am talking about nodes not areas or ways. Most of seas in OSM are tagged on 
node element. Also countries most of them are tagged on node element




من: Kevin Kenny mailto:kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>>
‏‏تم الإرسال: 01/ربيع الأول/1440 09:09 م
إلى: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
‏‏الموضوع: Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

‪On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 12:06 PM ‫دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar 
Alathar-Yemen‬‎ mailto:hubais...@outlook.com>> wrote:‬
I suggest new tag to tell map render to draw the node name with a specified 
rotate angle not horizontal. We need this for some seas like Red Sea, and Suez 
Gulf in Egypt.

I have serious doubts whether encoding the rendering in the map in such a way 
is a good idea.

A renderer that wished to label an area with an angled label could readily 
determine the angle for itself, by computing the principal axes of the area, 
and if its eccentricity exceeds a specified value, rotating the label to align 
with the major axis.

An even better rendering could be achieved by computing the morphological 
skeleton of the area, and placing the label along some smooth curve that 
approximates the medial axis.

There are also algorithms that handle curved label placement in the presence of 
interfering labels, although they are somewhat less well developed. One such is 
described in Mathieu BARRAULT, "A methodology for placement and evaluation of 
area map labels." _Computers, Environment and Urban Systems_ 25 (2001), pp. 
33-52.
http://geoinformatics.ntua.gr/courses/admcarto/lecture_notes/name_placement/bibliography/barrault_2001.pdf

Barrault describes the process of choosing a family of circular arcs that well 
approximate the general contour of an area feature. Figure 3 of the paper is 
informative about what criteria his heuristic takes into account for 'goodness' 
of placement. Figures 10 and 11 show what the algorithm achieves on sample 
elongated figures and Figures 13-14 show what it can do in the presence of 
interfering labels.

To place this task on the mapper forecloses on the possibility that a renderer 
can do it better.
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Re: [Tagging] Slipways (for boats)

[Andrew Harvey]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 20:58, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>  leisure=splipway is perfectly fine

+1, I'm in favour of leaving things as they are.

What's the point in changing it now given it's already extensively
used for non-leisure purposes? The leisure key is just an historical
artefact now, and it shouldn't be taken literally as only for leisure
purposes.

You can use the access tag to note if it's a slipway that the public
can use or if it's only for private use. To mark the type of craft I
use tags like: canoe=designated.

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Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Can you give example of a country not
mapped as an area and incorrectly
mapped as a node?

10. Nov 2018 07:01 by hubais...@outlook.com :


> I am talking about nodes not areas or ways. Most of seas in OSM are tagged on 
> node element. Also countries most of them are tagged on node element
>
>
>
>
>
> من:>  Kevin Kenny <> kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com 
> > >
> ‏‏تم الإرسال:>  01/ربيع الأول/1440 09:09 م
> إلى:>  Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> ‏‏الموضوع:>  Re: [Tagging] New rag to draw node name with rotate angle>  > 
> ‪On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 12:06 PM ‫دار الآثار للنشر والتوزيع-صنعاء Dar 
> Alathar-Yemen‬‎ <> hubais...@outlook.com > > 
> wrote:‬
>
>> I suggest new tag to tell map render to draw the node name with a specified 
>> rotate angle not horizontal. We need this for some seas like Red Sea, and 
>> Suez Gulf in Egypt. 
>
> I have serious doubts whether encoding the rendering in the map in such a way 
> is a good idea.
> A renderer that wished to label an area with an angled label could readily 
> determine the angle for itself, by computing the principal axes of the area, 
> and if its eccentricity exceeds a specified value, rotating the label to 
> align with the major axis.
> An even better rendering could be achieved by computing the morphological 
> skeleton of the area, and placing the label along some smooth curve that 
> approximates the medial axis.
> There are also algorithms that handle curved label placement in the presence 
> of interfering labels, although they are somewhat less well developed. One 
> such is described in Mathieu BARRAULT, "A methodology for placement and 
> evaluation of area map labels." _Computers, Environment and Urban Systems_ 25 
> (2001), pp. 33-52.  > 
> http://geoinformatics.ntua.gr/courses/admcarto/lecture_notes/name_placement/bibliography/barrault_2001.pdf
>  
> 
> Barrault describes the process of choosing a family of circular arcs that 
> well approximate the general contour of an area feature. Figure 3 of the 
> paper is informative about what criteria his heuristic takes into account for 
> 'goodness' of placement. Figures 10 and 11 show what the algorithm achieves 
> on sample elongated figures and Figures 13-14 show what it can do in the 
> presence of interfering labels.
> To place this task on the mapper forecloses on the possibility that a 
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Re: [Tagging] Slipways (for boats)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

9. Nov 2018 18:58 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
:


> The wiki tells us to use "leisure=slipway":
>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dslipway 
> 
>
> but many slipways are primarily for search-and-rescue, fishing craft,
> small ferries or other non-leisure uses.
>
> What would be a better tag?




 leisure=splipway is perfectly fine




in perfect world it would be man_made=slipway,




but given effort to migrate tags it is better to start with ones fundamentally 
broken
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Allan Mustard]

Office=visa_application would handle that.  Or office=company, 
company=visa_application. Such offices are not diplomatic facilities, but 
rather are commercial (they are contractors). Thus they don’t fit under 
office=diplomatic anyway and don’t fall under the scope of this proposal.  That 
said, if you want another week, that’s ok. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/11/18 17:12, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> As far as I'm concerned, it can go to vote!
> 
> I to am fairly happy.
> 
> However there is no need to rush.
> 
> -
> The spectre of office=visa hangs.
> If embassies/consulates remained in the 'amenity' key then there would be the 
> opportunity of tagging inside the embassies/consulates with office=visa ..
> 
> An office within an office poses problems.
> 
> Still thinking.
> 
> Another week?
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (consulate)-->(office=diplomatic)

[Warin]

On 10/11/18 17:12, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, it can go to vote!


I to am fairly happy.

However there is no need to rush.

-
The spectre of office=visa hangs.
If embassies/consulates remained in the 'amenity' key then there would 
be the opportunity of tagging inside the embassies/consulates with 
office=visa ..


An office within an office poses problems.

Still thinking.

Another week?

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Re: [Tagging] رد: New rag to draw node name with rotate angle

[OSMDoudou]

Can you show an example of where it’s not appearing properly ?

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