date:20221003

The guideline refers to a list of "primary features" which lists all features 
with main key and values. No explanotion or list of non-primary features. The 
text of the guideline says a primary feature is the key-value pair remaining 
when all the attributes are gone. 

In short, "primary feature" does not seem to have any other meaning then just 
feature.

Peter Elderson

> Op 3 okt. 2022 om 23:17 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
>> Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 12:40 Uhr schrieb martianfreeloader 
>> :
>> 2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".
> 
> 
> 
> hm, this seems strange, OSMF has the term in their collective database 
> guideline, it could be seen as important to understand whether the license 
> applies to your usecase and what the consequences are: 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/index.php?oldid=3980#The_Guideline
> The term is used 7 times.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Is this a drinking fountain?

Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 10:07 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> I don't think this is a drinking fountain, another mapper does.. what is
> your opinion?
>
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg/375px-Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg
>
>

IMHO it is. There is even a picture showing a glass of water, one of the
typical symbols for potable water.

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Dave F via Tagging




On 03/10/2022 09:11, Warin wrote:





2 primary features, identified by feature tags, represented by one 
OpenStreetMap element. Main key for stream is waterway, for road it 
is highway. In the osm2pgsql standard style, both are primary keys.





The guide says 'one feature = one OSM entry'. I would try to map each 
feature as one entry (node/way/what ever).




Isn't that a bit antiquated from the days OSM-Carto said they couldn't 
render multiple objects in one OSM way such as 
landuse=farmland/barrier-hedge etc, which they've now sorted.






A stream would not normal start and finish on a road .. so that would 
be a separate way compared to the road.. and I'd put ford on that 
section of road.




Occasionally they do:

ttps://snipboard.io/TVdf7A.jpghttps://snipboard.io/TVdf7A.jpghttps://snipboard.io/TVdf7A.jpg

If you map them as separate ways the ford & waterway tags aren't conjoined.

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 12:40 Uhr schrieb martianfreeloader <
martianfreeloa...@posteo.net>:

> 2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".



hm, this seems strange, OSMF has the term in their collective database
guideline, it could be seen as important to understand whether the license
applies to your usecase and what the consequences are:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/index.php?oldid=3980#The_Guideline
The term is used 7 times.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 10:17 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> what about cases where multiple features are tagged on one object?
>
> For example stream + road tagged on one line?
>
>
> 2 primary features, identified by feature tags, represented by one
> OpenStreetMap element. Main key for stream is waterway, for road it is
> highway. In the osm2pgsql standard style, both are primary keys.
>
>
>
> The guide says 'one feature = one OSM entry'. I would try to map each
> feature as one entry (node/way/what ever).
>


I know this, but it is somehow arbitrary, because it is us who define the
tags and decides their meaning, hence we define what a feature is.
Example river + highway, it could be 2 objects, a highway and a river, or
it could be a single object with a specific tag for a highway that is also
a river / runs in a dry/intermittent/frozen river bed.

Another example: cyleway=track. This means, 1 osm object represents 2
features, a road and a cycleway, or it could be seen as a road with a
cycleway (one feature, i.e. one element is right).

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Dave F via Tagging




On 03/10/2022 12:55, Volker Schmidt wrote:



On Mon, 3 Oct 2022, 12:20 Marc_marc,  wrote:

imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.

OT, but I cannot let it pass:
Roads, in most cases, are dedicated to vehicles (including bicycles), 
pedestrians, horse riders, ..., unless there are suitable sidewalks 
(for pedestrians), or suitable cycle paths (for bicycles). Most roads 
are not motorroads.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Citadels

2022-10-03 Thread Casper Kersten

P.s. Citadels and fortresses were complementary for a city's defence, but
do not always coexist. Also, some fortresses have been (partially)
demolished but the citadel have been left largely intact, as is the case in
Lille, France.

Op ma 3 okt. 2022 om 22:49 schreef Casper Kersten :

> @Martin Koppenhoefer That's a good question, and one I will surely address
> on the proposal page.
>
> The short answer is that a fortress is the fortified city centre with its
> city walls and defensive towers, and a citadel is a stand-alone
> fortification inside or on the edge of it.
>
> A good example is Saint-Martin-de-Ré (
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.2026/-1.3657), where the
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/308616 is the fortress and
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35814333 is the citadel.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vestingwerken_schema.svg shows
> essentially the same thing.
>
> Op ma 3 okt. 2022 om 22:38 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>>
>> Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 22:30 Uhr schrieb Casper Kersten <
>> casperkerst...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I just created a proposal page to tag citadels:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Citadel
>>> The proposed tag is castle_type=citadel.
>>>
>>> All feedback is welcome. Feel free to share it here, but I prefer to
>>> discuss the proposal on the Community Forum and on the discussion page on
>>> the Wiki.
>>>
>>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-proposal-to-tag-citadels/3570
>>>
>>
>>
>> can you explain how it relates to
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:castle_type%3Dfortress ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Citadels

2022-10-03 Thread Casper Kersten

@Martin Koppenhoefer That's a good question, and one I will surely address
on the proposal page.

The short answer is that a fortress is the fortified city centre with its
city walls and defensive towers, and a citadel is a stand-alone
fortification inside or on the edge of it.

A good example is Saint-Martin-de-Ré (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/46.2026/-1.3657), where the
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/308616 is the fortress and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35814333 is the citadel.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vestingwerken_schema.svg shows
essentially the same thing.

Op ma 3 okt. 2022 om 22:38 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 22:30 Uhr schrieb Casper Kersten <
> casperkerst...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I just created a proposal page to tag citadels:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Citadel
>> The proposed tag is castle_type=citadel.
>>
>> All feedback is welcome. Feel free to share it here, but I prefer to
>> discuss the proposal on the Community Forum and on the discussion page on
>> the Wiki.
>>
>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-proposal-to-tag-citadels/3570
>>
>
>
> can you explain how it relates to
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:castle_type%3Dfortress ?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Citadels

Am Mo., 3. Okt. 2022 um 22:30 Uhr schrieb Casper Kersten <
casperkerst...@gmail.com>:

> I just created a proposal page to tag citadels:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Citadel
> The proposed tag is castle_type=citadel.
>
> All feedback is welcome. Feel free to share it here, but I prefer to
> discuss the proposal on the Community Forum and on the discussion page on
> the Wiki.
>
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-proposal-to-tag-citadels/3570
>


can you explain how it relates to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:castle_type%3Dfortress ?

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Citadels

2022-10-03 Thread Casper Kersten

I just created a proposal page to tag citadels:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Citadel
The proposed tag is castle_type=citadel.

All feedback is welcome. Feel free to share it here, but I prefer to
discuss the proposal on the Community Forum and on the discussion page on
the Wiki.

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-proposal-to-tag-citadels/3570
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Re: [Tagging] (no subject)

2022-10-03 Thread martianfreeloader


I strongly support this.


On 03/10/2022 16:04, Sebastian Martin Dicke wrote:



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Healthcare 1.1

2022-10-03 Thread Robin Burek




Am 03.10.2022 um 08:26 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:

I used to consider deprecating of amenity=hospital as clearly bad
idea, even
if done in far future

But healthcare tag seems to be a good idea to me and I even ended using it
in one of tags that I promoted/proposed/invented.

But note that over half of amenity=hospital is without healthcare=hospital
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity%3Dhospital#combinations

It seems to me that it is may be too early to deprecate it.
See
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/doppeltagging-amenity-doctors-healthcare-doctor/2602/7
for dynamics in tag use.


In 2010 poposal there were also a mechanical edit proposed and approved.
So only deprecate it is a slow working move to change the variation over
a longer time. When deprecated only new-tagging is discouraged. The old
tags don't simply disapear.
Renderer will also have time to implement usage until amenity=* is no
longer used



And amenity=healthcare is definitely bad idea and it is not worth adding.


This is the conclusion I also drew from the wiki. I have therefore now
decided to use option B.


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[Tagging] (no subject)

2022-10-03 Thread Sebastian Martin Dicke





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - migration to use belarusian as default language in Belarus for tagging

2022-10-03 Thread Marc_marc


Hello,

Le 03.10.22 à 12:27, Mariusz a écrit :

they cannot write the most frequently displayed text tag (name) in Belarusian?


I have no idea which of you is right about the main language of the 
signs (especially if you read the same paragraph from WP to the end, 
about the main mother tongue)


but it has nothing to do with the proposal : if you see a sign
in a language you are able to retranscribe, you can retranscribe
it in osm, and this no matter which of the 2 languages you prefer
and no matter the result of the vote.
if you can't transcribe the signs you read, you obviously can't
add them in osm, no matter the result of the vote (which doesn't
prevent you from setting up a rendering project using the language
of your choice, see the fr or br style for example

the proposal concerns, from what I understand, how the names
will be retranscribed in the name tag when an object has
a name in 2 languages at least.
if McDonald's only has a trademark in one language,
the proposal will not affect the brand tag e.g.

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] OSM Wiki

2022-10-03 Thread Volker Schmidt

A practical comment from an end user: it is helpful to know if a
drinking-water point can be used to fill water bottles. Bubblers are tricky
in that regard.

BTW: a shower in many parts of the world may not "waste" drinking water,
for example by using rain water.

On Mon, 3 Oct 2022, 13:47 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> An interesting collective of comments on 'bubbler' from Australia
>
>
> https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/resources/aus/word/map/search/word/bubbler/The%20Riverina/
>
>
> On 1/10/22 11:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >> On 1 Oct 2022, at 02:38, stevea  wrote:
> >>
> >> There's water_tap, there's fountain (water fountains, same as drinking
> fountains / bubblers, not the same as big fountains in the park or Las
> Vegas), there's bubblers, are we (largely?) on the same page about these?!
> Good discussion so far!
> >
> > there is also a whole tagging scheme for all of this.
> >
> > amenity=drinking_water
> > fountain=drinking/bubbler/…
> > drinking_water=yes/no/…
> > man_made=water_tap
> > amenity=watering_place
> > amenity=fountain
> > …
> >
> > the tags can be combined to get to a useful description.
> >
> > FWIW, the water tap tag is often used for water that is not potable
> (because otherwise the standard is amenity=drinking_water
>
>
> amenity=drinking_water does not signify a tap, nor a bubbler nor a
> stream, nor a spring nor a pond .. it could be any of those and more ..
> a 'well' for instance.
>
> All amenity=drinking_water implies is 'drinking_water=yes', and
> hopefully the legal status too.
>
>
> Only ~16% of man_made=water_tap carry the tag 'drinking_water=no'. I
> don't think that supports the comment 'often used for water that is not
> potable'.
>
> See
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made%3Dwater_tap#combinations
> for more.
>
>
> A bubbler would normally be drinking water and have a tap. A shower too
> would normally be drinking water and have one or more taps. I don't
> think that the tag 'man_made=water_tap' should be applied to these things.
>
>
> A web comparison of 'bubbler' vs 'drinking  fountain'
>
> https://www.dictionary.com/compare-words/bubbler-vs-water%20fountain?root=bubbler
>
>
> I do like the distinction that a bubbler 'spouts water' where as a
> drinking fountain 'supplies water'. It is the "upward" 'spout' that
> makes human drinking easier.
>
>
> 
>
> Tagging combinations can get overly verbose?
>
>
> man_made=water_tap
> drinking_water=yes
> material=brass
>
> should not need added tags to further describe the water  .. such as
>
> amenity=drinking_water ... I think this is just tagging for the render,
> possibly necessary for some.
>
> And then adding
>
> fountain=drinking ... adds no new information?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - migration to use belarusian as default language in Belarus for tagging

2022-10-03 Thread Paveł Tyślacki

Most of places I would say on the ground presented in belarusian if we talk
about toponims: cities and villages, rivers. Streets depends, for example,
in Minks (capital of Belarus) it mostly belarusian on the ground.
Government offices mostly has shields with two languages. For toponims
using belarusian will meet ground truth in most cases. For POI proposal
suggest to use ground truth directly. You just can open mapillary or google
street view or yandex street view to check it.

There are different resources provided about language usage during
discussion for last few years as census, laws where for new toponims should
have belarusian name at first and then transliterated to russian, usage on
shields, paper maps and so one. It's true that russian used widelly, but
belarusian also used a lot. Personally I didn't have any issue with
communication on belarusian in Belarus.

For most of OSM users nothing significant should be changed, applications
as maps.me, organic maps, osmand will use language from settings, renders
which support languages also allows you to choose language you want, search
will work same way.

For OSM contributors some can be changed depends what type of objects they
will map. Toponims mapped very well and new added rare. Street quite
actively updated in general has duplicate names. POI added more
frequitently will not be affected. It's can be hard extrapolate your
statistic to OSM contributors, instead lets contributors decide what
language most comfortable for them.

On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 at 11:33, Mariusz  wrote:

> On 02.10.2022 23:44, Paveł Tyślacki wrote:
>
>
> There are link to proposal and voiting (belarusian)
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Be:Belarus_language_issues/Migration_proposal#%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B5
>
> There are many disturbing opposing votes claiming Belarusian language to
> be language of minority,  in many places not present on the ground, and
> Russian language to be widely used and known.
> According to Wikipedia, 30% of Belarusian can write Belarusian, 50% can
> speak and read.
>
> How can 70% of the population actively contribute to OSM if they cannot
> write the most frequently displayed text tag (name) in Belarusian?
> --
>
> Mariusz
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Volker Schmidt

On Mon, 3 Oct 2022, 12:20 Marc_marc,  wrote:

> imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
> and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.
>
OT, but I cannot let it pass:
Roads, in most cases, are dedicated to vehicles (including bicycles),
pedestrians, horse riders, ..., unless there are suitable sidewalks (for
pedestrians), or suitable cycle paths (for bicycles). Most roads are not
motorroads.







> but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
> the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
> describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
> this is not perfect
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] OSM Wiki

An interesting collective of comments on 'bubbler' from Australia

https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/resources/aus/word/map/search/word/bubbler/The%20Riverina/

On 1/10/22 11:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone

On 1 Oct 2022, at 02:38, stevea wrote:

There's water_tap, there's fountain (water fountains, same as drinking
fountains / bubblers, not the same as big fountains in the park or Las Vegas),
there's bubblers, are we (largely?) on the same page about these?! Good
discussion so far!

there is also a whole tagging scheme for all of this.

amenity=drinking_water
fountain=drinking/bubbler/…
drinking_water=yes/no/…
man_made=water_tap
amenity=watering_place
amenity=fountain
…

the tags can be combined to get to a useful description.

FWIW, the water tap tag is often used for water that is not potable (because
otherwise the standard is amenity=drinking_water

amenity=drinking_water does not signify a tap, nor a bubbler nor a
stream, nor a spring nor a pond .. it could be any of those and more ..
a 'well' for instance.

All amenity=drinking_water implies is 'drinking_water=yes', and
hopefully the legal status too.

Only ~16% of man_made=water_tap carry the tag 'drinking_water=no'. I
don't think that supports the comment 'often used for water that is not
potable'.

See
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made%3Dwater_tap#combinations
for more.

A bubbler would normally be drinking water and have a tap. A shower too
would normally be drinking water and have one or more taps. I don't
think that the tag 'man_made=water_tap' should be applied to these things.

A web comparison of 'bubbler' vs 'drinking fountain'
https://www.dictionary.com/compare-words/bubbler-vs-water%20fountain?root=bubbler

I do like the distinction that a bubbler 'spouts water' where as a
drinking fountain 'supplies water'. It is the "upward" 'spout' that
makes human drinking easier.

Tagging combinations can get overly verbose?

man_made=water_tap
drinking_water=yes
material=brass

should not need added tags to further describe the water .. such as

amenity=drinking_water ... I think this is just tagging for the render,
possibly necessary for some.

And then adding

fountain=drinking ... adds no new information?

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..



On 3/10/22 21:14, Marc_marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 03.10.22 à 07:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

power pole + street lamp + stork's nest?


having more than one main tag on an object is in my opinion
a practice not to be encougered, it's again one feature = one object: 
you add the information that it is made of aluminum or yellow color... 
what does it refer to? the pole? the lamp?


highway=street_lamp support=pole + power=pole seems better to me. 
moreover their geometry is not necessarily the same (if we reduce

the lamp to a point, the most logical is to put this point in
the center of the lamp, not on the outside of its pole)



:)

Apart from when cars run into them the center of the pole is outside the 
centre of the lamp around here, possibly a metre.



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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

On 3/10/22 22:01, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would avoid "primary key", because that is a term from database 
management systems. It means the identifying attribute (Id) of an 
entity, usually a unique identifier with an index (primary index), 
used to retrieve records and to link the entity (table) to other 
tables. Something else entirely.

Main key is better.

Further: the main key gives the type of object, the main tag gives a 
category within that type of object. That is an important difference, 
in documentation.

semantics (nit picking) An OSM 'tag' is both a key and a value, example 
{{tag|colour|yellow}}. So it gives both 'object' and 'category'. Ok?

Feature tag, I think it means the tag that gives the object type (the 
main key)  and the category within the object type (the value). So, 
equivalent to main tag.
I think the term secondary tag(s) and secondary key(s) are often used 
for the extra attributes of a feature, implying there should be a main 
tag first, to give the secondary tags meaning.

If we use 'main key'/'main tag'  then secondary key/tag is logical.

Peter Elderson

Op ma 3 okt. 2022 om 12:40 schreef martianfreeloader 
:

Thank you all for the many insightful replies to my question!

What I've learnt so far:

1) A feature is something in the physical world. This is well
documented
in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Features

2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".

3) The terms "main key", "primary key" and "feature tag" are
synonymous,
except for the tag/key distinction.

4) None of the above terms is official OSM terminology.

5) None of these terms is well documented in the wiki.

---

It looks like a couple of things would be good to get done:

A) We should get rid of the term "primary feature" in the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features

B) It would be useful if we agree on *one* official term for "main
key",
"primary key" or "feature tag". (I think "primary key/tag" is the
most
popular one)

C) We should document what we mean by this.

--

Open questions:
Q1) Which term should we choose as official term? ("main
key"/"primary
key"/"feature tag")

Q2) Should one OSM object hold multiple "primary tags"? (ongoing
discussion between Mateusz, Martin, Warin, Marc et al.)

On 03/10/2022 12:16, Marc_marc wrote:
> Le 03.10.22 à 10:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
>> there are cases where road is going in stream bed
>
> imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
> and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.
>
> but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
> the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
> describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
> this is not perfect
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..



On 3/10/22 21:37, martianfreeloader wrote:

Thank you all for the many insightful replies to my question!

What I've learnt so far:

1) A feature is something in the physical world. This is well 
documented in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Features


2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".

3) The terms "main key", "primary key" and "feature tag" are 
synonymous, except for the tag/key distinction.


4) None of the above terms is official OSM terminology.

5) None of these terms is well documented in the wiki.

---

It looks like a couple of things would be good to get done:

A) We should get rid of the term "primary feature" in the wiki page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features


B) It would be useful if we agree on *one* official term for "main 
key", "primary key" or "feature tag". (I think "primary key/tag" is 
the most popular one)


C) We should document what we mean by this.

--

Open questions:
Q1) Which term should we choose as official term? ("main key"/"primary 
key"/"feature tag")



Not "feature tag"! ... I have no preference for either of the others, 
which ever is most understandable/easy to translate should be chosen. .




Q2) Should one OSM object hold multiple "primary tags"? (ongoing 
discussion between Mateusz, Martin, Warin, Marc et al.)



Ha! Too complex!

Desirable to have "one real world feature=one OSM entry"  ... but when a 
single real world shop occupies all of a real work building ... then we 
have can have problems!


The building could have a name that is different from the shop, and have 
a different start date .. If things are simple then things are easy.


May possibly get out of this by using undocumented tags .. the 
undocumented one being the one the mapper does not want/need 
rendered..such as


building:name=*

building:start_date=*

The shop name is more important as the shop is probably what most people 
want.


No, I don't want to explain that to a novice mapper.





On 03/10/2022 12:16, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 03.10.22 à 10:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

there are cases where road is going in stream bed


imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.

but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
this is not perfect



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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

I would avoid "primary key", because that is a term from database
management systems. It means the identifying attribute (Id) of an entity,
usually a unique identifier with an index (primary index), used to retrieve
records and to link the entity (table) to other tables. Something else
entirely.

Main key is better.

Further: the main key gives the type of object, the main tag gives a
category within that type of object. That is an important difference, in
documentation.

Feature tag, I think it means the tag that gives the object type (the main
key)  and the category within the object type (the value). So, equivalent
to main tag.
I think the term secondary tag(s) and secondary key(s) are often used for
the extra attributes of a feature, implying there should be a main tag
first, to give the secondary tags meaning.

Peter Elderson


Op ma 3 okt. 2022 om 12:40 schreef martianfreeloader <
martianfreeloa...@posteo.net>:

> Thank you all for the many insightful replies to my question!
>
> What I've learnt so far:
>
> 1) A feature is something in the physical world. This is well documented
> in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Features
>
> 2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".
>
> 3) The terms "main key", "primary key" and "feature tag" are synonymous,
> except for the tag/key distinction.
>
> 4) None of the above terms is official OSM terminology.
>
> 5) None of these terms is well documented in the wiki.
>
> ---
>
> It looks like a couple of things would be good to get done:
>
> A) We should get rid of the term "primary feature" in the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features
>
> B) It would be useful if we agree on *one* official term for "main key",
> "primary key" or "feature tag". (I think "primary key/tag" is the most
> popular one)
>
> C) We should document what we mean by this.
>
> --
>
> Open questions:
> Q1) Which term should we choose as official term? ("main key"/"primary
> key"/"feature tag")
>
> Q2) Should one OSM object hold multiple "primary tags"? (ongoing
> discussion between Mateusz, Martin, Warin, Marc et al.)
>
>
>
> On 03/10/2022 12:16, Marc_marc wrote:
> > Le 03.10.22 à 10:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
> >> there are cases where road is going in stream bed
> >
> > imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
> > and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.
> >
> > but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
> > the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
> > describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
> > this is not perfect
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] OSM Wiki



On 1/10/22 09:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 at 09:32, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:



I would not  expect
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Bubbler.jpg
to be a water tap, but I am not a native speaker.


Yes, quite definitely a water tap!

How you would then distinguish
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Bubbler.jpg
and

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg


I wouldn't! I'd call them both a tap.

(upward tiny flow vs downward flow that basically always is more
significant)


For the purpose of a water tap, the amount of flow is basically 
irrelevant, just so long as you can get water from it as required.




A shower too would have a water tap. We don't add that tag to the shower 
.. so why would we to a bubbler? Should we not try to keep it simple?


Decorative fountains (what I would simply call a fountain) would also 
have a tap .. but not normally used by the public .. and plumbers would 
call it a 'stop cock' in Australia.
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread martianfreeloader


Thank you all for the many insightful replies to my question!

What I've learnt so far:

1) A feature is something in the physical world. This is well documented 
in the wiki: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Features


2) There is no such thing as a "primary feature".

3) The terms "main key", "primary key" and "feature tag" are synonymous, 
except for the tag/key distinction.


4) None of the above terms is official OSM terminology.

5) None of these terms is well documented in the wiki.

---

It looks like a couple of things would be good to get done:

A) We should get rid of the term "primary feature" in the wiki page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features


B) It would be useful if we agree on *one* official term for "main key", 
"primary key" or "feature tag". (I think "primary key/tag" is the most 
popular one)


C) We should document what we mean by this.

--

Open questions:
Q1) Which term should we choose as official term? ("main key"/"primary 
key"/"feature tag")


Q2) Should one OSM object hold multiple "primary tags"? (ongoing 
discussion between Mateusz, Martin, Warin, Marc et al.)




On 03/10/2022 12:16, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 03.10.22 à 10:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

there are cases where road is going in stream bed


imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.

but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
this is not perfect



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - migration to use belarusian as default language in Belarus for tagging

2022-10-03 Thread Mariusz


On 02.10.2022 23:44, Paveł Tyślacki wrote:


|There are link to proposal and voiting (belarusian) 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Be:Belarus_language_issues/Migration_proposal#%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B5|


There are many disturbing opposing votes claiming Belarusian language to 
be language of minority,  in many places not present on the ground, and 
Russian language to be widely used and known.
According to Wikipedia, 30% of Belarusian can write Belarusian, 50% can 
speak and read.


How can 70% of the population actively contribute to OSM if they cannot 
write the most frequently displayed text tag (name) in Belarusian?


--

Mariusz

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Marc_marc


Hello,

Le 03.10.22 à 07:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

power pole + street lamp + stork's nest?


having more than one main tag on an object is in my opinion
a practice not to be encougered, it's again one feature = one object: 
you add the information that it is made of aluminum or yellow color... 
what does it refer to? the pole? the lamp?


highway=street_lamp support=pole + power=pole seems better to me. 
moreover their geometry is not necessarily the same (if we reduce

the lamp to a point, the most logical is to put this point in
the center of the lamp, not on the outside of its pole)

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Marc_marc


Le 03.10.22 à 10:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

there are cases where road is going in stream bed


imho only one main feature/objet : the stream bed
and car use it, a bit like a bicycle uses a road.

but we don't really have a secondary tag to say that
the stream bed is usable by a car... so we end up
describing this secondary use with a 2nd main tag...
this is not perfect



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Re: [Tagging] Is this a drinking fountain?

2022-10-03 Thread stevea

On Oct 3, 2022, at 1:55 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:
> It seems that entire drinking water scheme is a horrific mess 
> and filled with confusing terms, many of them misinterpreted
> by mappers, what makes it even more confusing :)
> 
> The mentioned discussion concerns 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_tap examples

It has been “messy,” but it does get better as we share more of the subtle 
aspects of “tap,” “drinking water,” “fountain” and others in English.  Slowly 
better, but that’s better, so eventually, I think we can hammer this out so 
everybody at least agrees in the wiki.  Perhaps we tackle what we mean to say 
in the wiki first (to wide agreement / consensus), then apply what we all agree 
upon to “better tagging in the map."
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Dave F via Tagging




On 03/10/2022 06:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:




Oct 2, 2022, 23:30 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:



sent from a phone

On 2 Oct 2022, at 19:40, martianfreeloader
 wrote:

- primary feature [1]
- main key [2]
- primary key [3]
- feature tag [4]

1) Are these synonyms (except for the key/tag distinction)?



yes

what about cases where multiple features are tagged on one object?

For example stream + road tagged on one line?

Or power pole + street lamp + stork's nest?


That's irrelevant to the question that was asked.

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Re: [Tagging] OSM Wiki

2022-10-03 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging

Added "no drinking" water tap example at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_tap#Examples

(if someone has a better photo: feel free to replace this example, water
tap is not well visible there

or reply to this posting with link of freely licensed image, preferably already
uploaded to Wikimedia Commons
)


Oct 1, 2022, 02:07 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> With those, no need to say potable/drinkable, yeah.  I do see signs that say 
> "using recycled water" or "not drinkable, use for radiator only" signs (fewer 
> of the latter, but I do recall those from decades ago).  This might be marked 
> with a "do not drink" glyph / red circle-with-slash over a human drinking, 
> too.
>
> So, yeah, a tap might be only for "golf course irrigation only," for example, 
> and unfit for drinking.
>
> Thanks for the additional inputs.
>
>> On Sep 30, 2022, at 4:56 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 5:53 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick  
>> wrote:
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is this a drinking fountain?

2022-10-03 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging

As the another mapper who was mentioned
I am not entirely sure is it drinking fountain, but what I know:

- it is intended to directly provide drinking water to people in city center
- it is possible to drink directly from it (but that may be unfeasible for
example for someone older and with reduced mobility)
- it is easy to fill bottle etc from it
- what about example at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Ddrinking
- mapped at https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10052493601

It seems that entire drinking water scheme is a horrific mess 
and filled with confusing terms, many of them misinterpreted
by mappers, what makes it even more confusing :)

The mentioned discussion concerns 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_tap examples

Oct 3, 2022, 10:02 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> HI,
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't think this is a drinking fountain, another mapper does..  what is 
> your opinion? 
>
>
>
>
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg/375px-Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
> Not .. not after water quality nor if it is a tap etc.. just if  it is a 
> 'drinking fountain'. 
>
>
>
>
>
> Humm looking at > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Ddrinking>  and  oxford 
> dictionary "> a device that supplies water  for drinking in public 
> places" 
>
>
>
>
>
> It looks like any tag  (with potable water) is a 'drinking fountain' 
> .. indeed most  amenity=drinking_water, man_made=water_well, etc will 
> also be  drinking fountains. 
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

2022-10-03 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging




Oct 3, 2022, 10:11 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> A stream would not normal start and finish on a road .. so that  would be 
> a separate way compared to the road.. and I'd put ford on  that section 
> of road.. 
>
>
Normally yes, but there are cases where road is going in stream bed.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1085340593#map=19/50.14411/19.79109

Mapping this as two features would be actually more incorrect:
as in this case road and stream are actually a single feature.
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

On 3/10/22 19:01, Peter Elderson wrote:

A feature is not a tag or a key, it's an object in the OSM database. I don't
know which features are primary, secondary, ... and why. Anyway, the term
primary feature is not equivalent to main key or main tag.

Feature = real world object.

Real world features are 'translated' into OSM using tags.

In OSM the real world feature would have a single tag to say 'what it
is', a highway, a building etc. This would be the main tag (main key +
main value)

Other tags such as colour, height, elevation as descriptive details of
the real world feature.

That make some sense?

Talking about e.g. roads, the main key is highway= because that key defines the
feature as a road or road component. Talking about a particular road, the
highway=* tag is the main tag because it defines the type of the road or road
component.

So main key and main tag are more or less alike, but not equivalent.
Tag to me is the combination of the key and the value .. eg {tag |
highway | service }

Feature tag is a vague term. I suppose it means: an attribute of an object, as
opposed e.g. to an attribute of a changeset.

I'd try not to use 'feature' and 'tag' together like that, keeping
'feature' for the real world and 'tag' for OSM.

Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 3 okt. 2022 om 04:06 heeft Minh Nguyen het
volgende geschreven:

Vào lúc 10:36 2022-10-02, martianfreeloader đã viết:

Hi,
I'm unsure if I'm using correct terminology. I have come across these terms in
the OSM ecosystem:
- primary feature [1]
- main key [2]
- primary key [3]
- feature tag [4]
1) Are these synonyms (except for the key/tag distinction)?
2) Is *one* of these terms "official" OSM speek with a clear definition?
(as is the case for things like "node", "way", "relation", "key", "value", "tag",
"changeset")

"Primary feature" appears in the Collective Database Guideline Guideline [sic] and
Geocoding community guideline, which clarify the terms of use under the ODbL. [1][2] "Feature
type" appears in the Horizontal Map Layers community guideline. [3]

[1] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3980#The_Guideline
[2]
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/4907#How_does_the_guideline_relate_to_other_existing_guidelines?
[3] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3982#The_Guideline

--
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..



On 3/10/22 18:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 3 Oct 2022, at 07:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:



- primary feature [1]
- main key [2]
- primary key [3]
- feature tag [4]

1) Are these synonyms (except for the key/tag distinction)?



yes

what about cases where multiple features are tagged on one object?
For example stream + road tagged on one line?



2 primary features, identified by feature tags, represented by one 
OpenStreetMap element. Main key for stream is waterway, for road it is 
highway. In the osm2pgsql standard style, both are primary keys.





The guide says 'one feature = one OSM entry'. I would try to map each 
feature as one entry (node/way/what ever).



A stream would not normal start and finish on a road .. so that would be 
a separate way compared to the road.. and I'd put ford on that section 
of road..
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

I guess Primary key and Main key are the same. 

Peter Elderson

> Op 3 okt. 2022 om 04:06 heeft Minh Nguyen  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Vào lúc 10:36 2022-10-02, martianfreeloader đã viết:
>> Hi,
>> I'm unsure if I'm using correct terminology. I have come across these terms 
>> in the OSM ecosystem:
>> - primary feature [1]
>> - main key [2]
>> - primary key [3]
>> - feature tag [4]
>> 1) Are these synonyms (except for the key/tag distinction)?
>> 2) Is *one* of these terms "official" OSM speek with a clear definition?
>> (as is the case for things like "node", "way", "relation", "key", "value", 
>> "tag", "changeset")
> 
> "Primary feature" appears in the Collective Database Guideline Guideline 
> [sic] and Geocoding community guideline, which clarify the terms of use under 
> the ODbL. [1][2] "Feature type" appears in the Horizontal Map Layers 
> community guideline. [3]
> 
> [1] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3980#The_Guideline
> [2] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/4907#How_does_the_guideline_relate_to_other_existing_guidelines?
> [3] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3982#The_Guideline
> 
> -- 
> m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Tagging] Is this a drinking fountain?


HI,


I don't think this is a drinking fountain, another mapper does.. what is 
your opinion?



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg/375px-Water_flowing_from_drinking_water_tap.jpg


Not .. not after water quality nor if it is a tap etc.. just if it is a 
'drinking fountain'.



Humm looking at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fountain%3Ddrinking and oxford 
dictionary "a device that supplies water for drinking in public places"



It looks like any tag (with potable water) is a 'drinking fountain' .. 
indeed most amenity=drinking_water, man_made=water_well, etc will also 
be drinking fountains.
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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..

A feature is not a tag or a key, it's an object in the OSM database. I don't 
know which features are primary, secondary, ... and why. Anyway, the term 
primary feature is not equivalent to main key or main tag.

Talking about e.g. roads, the main key is highway= because that key defines the 
feature as a road or road component. Talking about a particular road, the 
highway=* tag is the main tag because it defines the type of the road or road 
component.

So main key and main tag are more or less alike, but not equivalent.

Feature tag is a vague term. I suppose it means: an attribute of an object, as 
opposed e.g. to an attribute of a changeset.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 3 okt. 2022 om 04:06 heeft Minh Nguyen  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Vào lúc 10:36 2022-10-02, martianfreeloader đã viết:
>> Hi,
>> I'm unsure if I'm using correct terminology. I have come across these terms 
>> in the OSM ecosystem:
>> - primary feature [1]
>> - main key [2]
>> - primary key [3]
>> - feature tag [4]
>> 1) Are these synonyms (except for the key/tag distinction)?
>> 2) Is *one* of these terms "official" OSM speek with a clear definition?
>> (as is the case for things like "node", "way", "relation", "key", "value", 
>> "tag", "changeset")
> 
> "Primary feature" appears in the Collective Database Guideline Guideline 
> [sic] and Geocoding community guideline, which clarify the terms of use under 
> the ODbL. [1][2] "Feature type" appears in the Horizontal Map Layers 
> community guideline. [3]
> 
> [1] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3980#The_Guideline
> [2] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/4907#How_does_the_guideline_relate_to_other_existing_guidelines?
> [3] 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/3982#The_Guideline
> 
> -- 
> m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: [Tagging] Terminology primary feature, main tag, etc..