Re: [Tagging] Attendant on amenity=fuel

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello Dave,

As this is a thing country specific, people typically expect the norm. So no 
need to tag this explicitly.

Question is how to tag it.

self_service sounds like the right key to tag exceptions from the norm. It can 
also be used with the same meaning for example for car wash. These come as well 
as stations where you insert coins in a machine to get pressurized water or 
with staff doing the car wash for you, eg while you are shopping in the 
supermarket.

Stephan


On March 30, 2018 12:08:44 PM GMT+07:00, Dave Swarthout 
<daveswarth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In the U.S. almost all service stations are unattended these days. The
>pumps are automated and accept only credit cards. Persons needing to
>pay
>cash have to go to a separate office or shop to pay. Oregon used to be
>the
>only state I visit regularly in which customers were not allowed to
>fuel
>their vehicles. Attendants did everything; filled the tank, cleaned the
>windshield, checked the oil. IIRC, that law just recently changed.
>
>Dave
>
>On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Stephan Knauss
><o...@stephans-server.de>
>wrote:
>
>> It is the norm that you have an attendant coming and filling up the
>tank
>> for you.
>>
>> Some places will always clean the windscreen while waiting for the
>refill,
>> but don't this is something to tag special as you can always ask the
>> attendant to clean them.
>>
>> In some countries it differs, so I suggest to tag things not
>following the
>> norm of the country.
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>> On March 29, 2018 5:58:51 PM GMT+07:00, "Javier Sánchez Portero" <
>> javiers...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, english is not my first languange and I'm not sure of have
>been
>>> used the correct word in the subject. I'm looking for a key to
>denote if
>>> you have to refuel by your self or not. I meant if the station
>operates on
>>> self service mode.
>>>
>>> Didn't found nothing in the wiki or taginfo.
>>>
>>> I'm confused also about the use of Key:tenant. The description in
>the
>>> wiki is to short for a non native English speaker. Could any one
>give me
>>> further details?
>>>
>>> Thank you, Javier.
>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>-- 
>Dave Swarthout
>Homer, Alaska
>Chiang Mai, Thailand
>Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Attendant on amenity=fuel

[Stephan Knauss]

It is the norm that you have an attendant coming and filling up the tank for 
you.

Some places will always clean the windscreen while waiting for the refill, but 
don't this is something to tag special as you can always ask the attendant to 
clean them.

In some countries it differs, so I suggest to tag things not following the norm 
of the country.

Stephan


On March 29, 2018 5:58:51 PM GMT+07:00, "Javier Sánchez Portero" 
 wrote:
>Sorry, english is not my first languange and I'm not sure of have been
>used
>the correct word in the subject. I'm looking for a key to denote if you
>have to refuel by your self or not. I meant if the station operates on
>self
>service mode.
>
>Didn't found nothing in the wiki or taginfo.
>
>I'm confused also about the use of Key:tenant. The description in the
>wiki
>is to short for a non native English speaker. Could any one give me
>further
>details?
>
>Thank you, Javier.
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Re: [Tagging] Nicknames

[Stephan Knauss]

Why not using loc_name for it?

Stephan 



On October 25, 2017 8:08:22 AM GMT+02:00, "Daniel Koć"  
wrote:
>I think it'd be good to add "Big Apple" nickname as a popular (and 
>searchable) kind of placename for a New York:
>
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/61785451
>
>
>However nicknames are not defined on the wiki nor used too much as 
>"nickname" (just 44 objects):
>
>https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/nickname
>
>
>The currently stored names (tags without language codes) are:
>
>alt_name=New York City
>
>name=New York
>
>official_name=City of New York
>
>short_name=NYC
>
>
>Should we add "nickname" as another standard naming scheme in wiki 
>definition?
>
>
>-- 
>"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Neutral" language for objects in international areas

[Stephan Knauss]

Use name:en for English, name:fr for French and so on. No "name" tag. 

Map renderer will pick up the right one. See the map of openstreetmap.de on how 
this can be done. 

Stephan 


On April 7, 2017 3:26:15 AM GMT+07:00, "Nelson A. de Oliveira" 
 wrote:
>Which is the most appropiated/neutral language for international
>objects? (outside countries, in ocean, etc)
>
>For example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47301187
>
>When I first created the Point Nemo
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_inaccessibility#Oceanic_pole_of_inaccessibility
>object I left it with name and alt_name in English (as I considered it
>"neutral"/international enough).
>
>But then it was changed to Esperanto (in the above changeset).
>
>While I like and believe in Esperanto, somehow I think that it's not
>the most appropriated language there.
>Somebody could even argue that Interlingua
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua is as valid as Esperanto,
>for example, and start changing such objects.
>
>
>So what should we use for such cases, please?
>
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[Tagging] Starbucks or Starbucks Coffee

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello,

most of you know that place with the green mermaid logo serving coffee.

But what is it's name/brand to be tagged in OSM?

There is a wiki page suggesting "Starbucks Coffee". No references listed 
how it was decided to be. It also mentioned that "Starbucks" was more 
common.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/POI:Starbucks_Coffee
As of today there are 5565 "Starbucks" and 1191 "Starbucks Coffee".

The group of POI brand name pages involved also suggests doing automated 
edits using overpass to keep them uniform.


But is it really called like this? Some shops have "Starbucks Coffee" 
written outside. The company itself removed the words from their logo a 
while ago.


Wikipedia lists the page as "Starbucks" and not "Starbucks Coffee". 
Actually it describes "Starbucks Corporation".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starbucks

Starbucks company website itself has a listing of their brands. There 
they call it always "Starbucks", never "Starbucks Coffee".

https://www.starbucks.com/careers/brands

Their website always uses "Starbucks (r)" to indicate a registered 
trademark of that name. A lookup on the US Patent office finds live 
registrations of them of the mermaid logo and "Starbucks coffee".


For franchise partners they also advertise their brand name to be 
"Starbucks" (TM)

https://solutions.starbucks.com/our-brands/starbucks

So most of this indicate it is "Starbucks", not "Starbucks Coffee".

Are there other sources available? In the light of this, is it really a 
good idea to encourage mass-retagging into "Starbucks Coffee"?


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Start of a river

[Stephan Knauss]

how about extending the waterway relation with a member role which can 
indicate either the "spring" or the "source" in case of a "creation" of 
a river by multiple tributary rivers?


Not sure how it would best be called. Source? Origin? Confluence? Is 
there a specific hdyrology term for this?


Wikipedia might indicate that "source" is the right word to use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confluence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_source

If this is also suitable for a spring, then changing the role spring to 
source would do the trick.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway

While you update the wiki: I feel the "tributary" role also deserves to 
be documented in the wiki page. It is used nearly 7.000 times.


Stephan


On 26.02.2017 09:41, Dave Swarthout wrote:

That's interesting. I wonder if the tagging of tourism=attraction is
totally appropriate but surely a waterway=source tag is. Presumably the
mapper was trying to indicate that the source of that stream is where
that node is.

I'm going to start using the tag myself and let data consumers figure it
out if they wish. After a while I'll consider adding it to the Wiki.
There are a few instances of the tag in use already.

On Feb 26, 2017 2:23 PM, "Martin Koppenhoefer" > wrote:
The point where it starts doesn't (yet) have any meaningful tags,
just a property disguised as a
feature: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/135500355



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag beginning of a river

[Stephan Knauss]

On 25.02.2017 04:28, Dave Swarthout wrote:

I'm wondering if it's possible to tag in some meaningful way, the place,
usually a node, where a river begins. It seems this would be of interest
to people besides myself but I don't think there is currently a way to
tag such a place.


This mentions to optionally add a role "spring" for the "spring" node.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway

Is this usable?

Stephan



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Jewellery shop

[Stephan Knauss]

The approved way of tagging is using the AE spelling. 
Approved by the use of the tag by thousands of mappers. 
Spelling it different could be treated as a misspelled tag. So "fixing" it is 
not that surprising. 

Bad luck for those who invented it in the wrong spelling. Now it is too late 
for changing it giving very little benefit. 

Stephan 

On January 26, 2016 12:08:59 PM GMT+01:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:
>2016-01-26 12:01 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer
>:
>
>> against another one with 187, then the decision has already been
>> made by the mappers.
>>
>
>
>btw: there seem to be people changing the spelling of these from BE to
>AE,
>I have in the past added shop=jewellery and looking at them now shows
>they
>have been changed in the meantime.
>
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Jewelry/jewellery shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 13.01.2016 23:46, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

We currently use British English for almost all OSM tags. Jewellery
shops however are typically tagged with the American English variant
shop=jewelry (20083 occurrences), and hardly ever with the British
English variant shop=jewellery (187 occurrences). Editors and data
consumers only support the American variant.


so I propose to accept it as it is. It is accepted tagging. Keep in mind 
that we don't have any formal "approval" process for tagging. If 
something is in active use then it is considered approved.


The benefit to have any different spelling is small to non-existent.

Situation would be different if it would cause conflicts or 
misinterpretation (think of the "gym" tagging). But here I don't see any 
such conflict.


And as others already mentioned: It is recommended to use, BE, not required.

Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello Robin, 

thanks for referring to the previous discussion. Seems I had missed that. 

As a "global" default won't work due to the arguments mentioned, how about 
making it easier for the data consumers? 

We still face the problem that a lot of opening hours are incompletely 
specified.  So for example the opening hours js library could display a warning 
in case of a public holiday and missing explicit specification in the tags. 
Would give a heads up notice to be more cautious with the data. 

Is there already an osmose category existing to find incomplete opening hours? 

Stephan 


On November 20, 2015 12:35:42 AM GMT+07:00, Robin Schneider <y...@riseup.net> 
wrote:
>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>Hash: SHA512
>
>On 19.11.2015 13:01, Stephan Knauss wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> the wiki page describes that "PH off" is required in case something
>is 
>> closed on a public holiday.
>> 
>> This page confirms it: 
>> http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?setLng=de a
>facility
>> tagged with "Mo-Fr 10:00-18:00" would be open on Christmas Friday.
>> 
>> Wouldn't it be much more meaningful to assume a default of "PH off"
>and 
>> just specify situations in which this is not the default? Likely the 
>> majority of amenities with tagged opening hours are closed on public 
>> holidays.
>> 
>> Check of OSM data: Out of 445 banks in Bavaria with opening hours 417
>would
>> be open on a public holiday (which is certainly always wrong).
>> 
>> Having the need to add PH off to every single entry would make it
>explicit,
>>  but is contrary to the typical common understanding of opening
>hours. And
>>  we also don't add oneway=no to the highways to make it explicit.
>> 
>> So I suggest to adopt a default understanding of "PH off" unless
>tagged 
>> otherwise.
>> 
>> Would it be worth opening a ticket here? 
>> https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js
>
>
>Good evening Stephan
>
>You are not the first one with this idea. It has already be discoursed
>and it
>was rejected. Such a proposal would make sense when looking only at
>Germany
>but it does not work so well when applied worldwide …
>
>Refs:
>
>- - (Assuming you speak German):
>https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/#comment-143413
>- -
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_default_PH_off
>
>- -- 
>Live long and prosper
>Robin `ypid` Schneider
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[Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Stephan Knauss]

Hi,

the wiki page describes that "PH off" is required in case something is  
closed on a public holiday.


This page confirms it:
http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?setLng=de
a facility tagged with "Mo-Fr 10:00-18:00" would be open on Christmas  
Friday.


Wouldn't it be much more meaningful to assume a default of "PH off" and  
just specify situations in which this is not the default? Likely the  
majority of amenities with tagged opening hours are closed on public  
holidays.


Check of OSM data:
Out of 445 banks in Bavaria with opening hours 417 would be open on a  
public holiday (which is certainly always wrong).


Having the need to add PH off to every single entry would make it explicit,  
but is contrary to the typical common understanding of opening hours. And  
we also don't add oneway=no to the highways to make it explicit.


So I suggest to adopt a default understanding of "PH off" unless tagged  
otherwise.


Would it be worth opening a ticket here?
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js

Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 23.03.2015 21:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2015-03-23 15:27 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de
mailto:o...@stephans-server.de:

The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used
when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that
they are a small independent firm.
Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/Tag:operator%__3Dindependent
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent

no, I think he wants a tag that says: this petrol station is not
associated with one of the big mineral oil companies. The proposed tag
operator=independent is a hack by putting something different than an
operator into the operator value, IMHO nothing we should encourage, and
this information will be lost as soon as someone adds a proper operator
to the POI.


That given wiki page is quite new. And operator=independent not that 
much in use. Maybe get rid of that wiki page then and replace the 
tagging with something more appropriate?


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 22.03.2015 20:29, fly wrote:

some independent petrol stations are organized in associations and use
these as their brand, see e.g. here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverband_freier_Tankstellen
So it is a brand. Maybe just small, but a brand of that association of 
fuel stations.



not being part of a mineral oil corporation doesn't necessarily mean you
don't use a brand name.


So, we need an additional tag for independent shops/petrol stations as
brand=* and operator=* might be already used.
Do we need company_chain=* or does independent=yes work ?


The wiki describes operator=independent as he value has been used 
when exact details of the operator are not known, other than that they 
are a small independent firm.

Sounds like that's exactly what we are looking for.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:operator%3Dindependent

Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 23.03.2015 14:50, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:

 amenity=fuel
 fuel=bottled
Which would render indistinguishable from a full service fuel station.


That's fine, because selling fuel is what makes it a fuel station.


You have missed the point of this thread. The world is not perfect. 
amenity=fuel is broken. It is so much established as a tag for proper 
fuel stations for cars that it's utopic to expect the tagging to change 
and people know to tag and evaluate sub-tags.


I like the idea of shop=fuel and sub-tags because it gives us the 
opportunity to make it better this time.


Legacy software and rendering still works. also legacy tagging of 
amenity=fuel still works.
But we can add advanced tagging of the fuel-types to get more (and more 
detailed) information to the database.


Exactly the small places in Asia and Africa selling fuel from bottles. 
Or the places in Japan selling kerosene for heating. Or shops sellign 
firewood and coal. Or shops selling small amounts of fuel for 
sport/fishing boats near lakes.


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 20.03.2015 11:44, John Willis wrote:

As long as distribution is non-traditional, a shop selling fuel oil and
cordwood for heating is fine with me (I have to read up on fuel= tagging )


shop=fuel sounds reasonable.

It seems to be used for coal, heating oil and kerosine. And a hand full 
of mistaggings of amenity=fuel)


http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/8iB

as it's a new tag it can be properly refined by additional tags. 
amenity=fuel was introduced as car-fuel and is so wide understood as 
this that it's not realistic to expect this to change. and amenity is 
overloaded already.


think of it similar as amenity=place_of_worship. This is also a key that 
needs evaluation of at least the religion sub-key to be reasonably rendered.


Similar can be done with shop=fuel.

It can be differentiated into the kind of fuel available as well as 
taking into account quantity limitations if needed.


If we include tagging for proper petrol stations it could also replace 
amenity=fuel in the long term.

Keeping the sub-key tagging compatible would allow to tag it simultaneous.

Modern data consumer and renderer evaluate shop=fuel and subkeys, legacy 
only the amenity and miss out the newer features like coal or bottled fuel.


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Fuel shops

[Stephan Knauss]

On 19.03.2015 20:31, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

However I can see nothing wrong with amenity=fuel, that is what it is in that 
part of the world . What turns amenity=fuel into a regular filling station is 
the building=roof.


There is a huge difference. You'll notice that if you end up with your 
Diesel pickup in front of a amenity=fuel shelf out of Whiskey bottles 
filled with gasoline. The quantity is even too small to substantially 
fill up a car.


Those pumps from a barrel are fine for a car. We used them recently on a 
trip near Doi Inthanon. Filling up 500 Baht of Diesel was no issue at all.


There is operator=independent.
I suggest this along with amenity=fuel for everything which is suitable 
for filling up a car or small truck/pickup.


This is to differentiate from big brands like PTT which usually also 
come with a convenience store/coffee shop.


Vending machines selling petrol for cars also fine.

The problem are vending machines only serving for motorbikes and those 
bottle-shops.
I would like to avoid them being amenity=fuel as it is hard to convince 
every western map-maker to query additional tags before deciding how to 
render them. That tag is already too established without extra tags.


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Stephan Knauss]

On 29.09.2014 05:14, Никита wrote:

Should we discourage usage of this tag(s) outside Korea and Japan? (I
will vote yes for this part)


a lot of people in Thailand will be mad at you then...

Having named junctions is quite common.

Stephan



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Stephan Knauss]

On 29.09.2014 12:21, Никита wrote:

  Having named junctions is quite common.
Do you mean personal name? There very-very few named junctions in Russia
and almost all of them are local names, not official. Ex:


Thailand has official signs naming the junctions/intersections. These 
names are also used when you give directions.


This is an example of what these road signs look like. Image is not the 
best I have of junction signs but the first I found:

http://s29.postimg.org/yboj3n4xj/named_junction.jpg

Stephan



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Re: [Tagging] (Soapy) Massage Parlour

[Stephan Knauss]

On 21.09.2014 11:04, Dan S wrote:

It looks like there's this tag, including a tag suggested for your
specific issue:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmassage


please don't use shop=massage for this kind of places.

I really don't want them to show up on a map next to Wat Pho massage 
just because the map creator does not take into account some additional 
tagging which says yes, it's tagged as a massage, but this tag tells 
you it isn't.


Additional tags can specify something further, but should not change the 
meaning in general.


Think of amenity=place_of_worship. They are all sort of religious place. 
If your map cares, it can distinguish between Buddhist, Christian or 
Muslim. But still it's a place of worship.



Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] English translations in non-english countries

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello,

On 13.09.2014 07:49, johnw wrote:

Is there in OSM wide set for this? pulling all the default (English) labels 
off of an internationally focused map seems truly backwards.
Whats the deal there?


in OSM we focus on ground truth and having a local (!) community taking 
care of the data and keeping it in shape.


The standard in OSM is to put the local name of a feature in the name 
tag. There are exceptions for countries with multiple languages in use 
or for disputed areas. But typically there is one language and the 
feature's name in that language is in the name tag.


If the name exists in different languages or there is the need for some 
romanized writing this is in the respective name:* tags.


Due to the main site's map commitment to the local community and thus 
displaying each feature in it's local name some people abused the name 
tag to implement bilingual (local/English) rendering.


This is certainly an abuse as it makes processing the data for various 
purposes much more difficult. And the decision which name to show on a 
map is a cartographic decision and should not be made in the data.


As of today there exist many alternatives on how to make a map 
multi-lingual. My own map is doing this since four years, Mapquest is 
also showing a local/English naming (world-wide).


So while in principle it's correct to fix the name tag to include only 
the local name (in your case in Japanese), due to the widespread misuse 
of the name tag especially in Japan it is a decision of the local 
community how to go on with it.


Personally I would favor a mechanical edit to rectify the majority of 
the name tags, then continue with the local/name:* scheme.


But this is a decision which needs to be made by the local community.


You can compare the tagging in other parts of the world which follow 
this tagging.


For example here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/48.0147/11.5645layers=Q

it is name=München, name=en=Munich

No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should 
Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map?


The style on osm.org respects local mapper and always shows the local name.
Specific rendering exists for international maps. Switch to the 
mapquest layer and you can read it bi-lingual.


Other maps like that on openstreetmap.de try to show always the German 
name or a romanized form.



Stephan



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Re: [Tagging] Ablution area

[Stephan Knauss]

On 31.08.2014 01:24, André Pirard wrote:

On 2014-08-30 10:55, Dave Swarthout wrote :

FWIW, I traveled extensively in New Zealand a few years ago and there
an ablution block (or ablution area) is a place in a campground
where one washes things — dishes, clothing, etc. That definition of
ablution is also a sort of purification, I reckon.

In French, ablution means hygienic body washing. Misleading.
Purification is a secondary meaning.


I think the intended use is for use in a religious context.

The tag should be in a way that it's not used for dish-washing and 
ritual purification the same time.


Do you think the word is too generic? or the amenity key not suitable 
for it?


Stephan




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Re: [Tagging] default value for oneway

[Stephan Knauss]

Xavier Noria writes:


In the European cities and towns I know the majority of streets are
one-way.


In not a single EU city I know of there is something close to a majority  
of streets being one-way. Even more. In most of the villages the roads are  
not one-way. Based on this it's a good rationale to assume a street is non  
one-way by default.


This also applies to the cities in Asia i know of.

Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - No votes for proposals opening_hours_holiday_select and opening_hours_open_until

[Stephan Knauss]

Hi Robin,

On 07.04.2014 22:11, Robin `ypid` Schneider wrote:

I created two proposals for which the time to vote is over but there are no
votes :(. Should we open the voting once again or what is the usual procedure in
such a case? The proposals are:


that voting for a proposal is nothing more than a rough indication of 
the opinion of the people actually stated their opinion.
You could have asked at your local regular's table, in the forum or the 
mailing list.


It's just a different tool to do the community communication process of 
getting a common understanding about the meaning of specific tags.


If no one is interested in your tags, then probably it's of no use to 
the community.
And we're too much of a Do-ocracy in this case. No one is interested in 
people solving problems which only exist in theory.


If your tool can evaluate a specific patter, then do it and document it. 
If it's reasonable then people will follow that tagging. If not a 
discussion will arise in the future.


I would imagine most people would handle places without a specific 
opening hour similar I would do. If it's not possible to specify some 
core hours which are certainly open, I would not specify at all.
It's simply not possible to evaluate it automatically with a reasonable 
effort. So if a business refuses to tell me when they're open, then they 
have to accept that software giving hints about open now won't list 
them. Similar to the open as long as customers are there closing time...


Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Stephan Knauss]

Robin `ypid` Schneider writes:


I mean the correction
'0930-0630' - '09:30-06:30'*
seams quite straight forward and I guess if someone aware of the wiki page about
opening_hours will find such a value he/she will change it by hand anyway.
I assume that this will improve the data quality and will not lead to opposite.
* value unlikely for this facility: added fixme node:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2600853055/history


This is a perfect example of a change which should *NOT* be automated.

with the 0930-0630 syntax it's easy to highlight on a quality check tool  
as the syntax is wrong.
By checking the syntax a human would likely notice that the opening hour  
might be fine for a fast-food restaurant, but not for a government passport  
office.
So a human mapper would not only fix the syntax, but also fix the wrong  
usage of a 12 hour time format and write 09:30-18:30, probably even  
noticing it's not open every day and writing Mo-Fr 09:30-18:30.


When your bot would have changed it to 09:30-06:30 it's a lot more  
difficult to actually spot this suspicious data.


Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Study area

[Stephan Knauss]

Andrew Errington writes:


We have them here in Korea.  Students pay per month and use the room
to study in.  The main reason they exist is because of the dense
housing here it's sometimes hard for students to get a quiet place to
study.


If you say that studying is also some kind of work, then co-working if  
still in the scope for these places.

Maybe not needed to have too many different main keys for them.

all are co-working spaces. some cost money, others are free. Some cater  
students, other different businesses. Some offer also mail handling,  
beaverages, etc , others don't...

operator might be university in case of on-campus places.

Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Study area

[Stephan Knauss]

Dave Swarthout writes:


I agree. This is not a typical office. Here is a link, with photos, etc.
http://www.mayashoppingcenter.com/store/detail/C.A.M.P/4.html


I would not focus too much on the office in the key name. A footpath is  
also a highway. But everyone would agree it is not a highway at all.


We treat the combination of key+values as a tag, often the exact meaning  
needs a second sub-tag es well.


Question is whether a place where people come together to work (either  
business or work for their study) is a co-working space and how to tag it.


Based on your pictures and description I would tag it the same as the paid  
co-working places like punspace (never been there, but know pictures) and  
guru-box (seen in person).


Having it free might be just some form of promotion of the mall to bring in  
more people and hope they spent some money there as well.


Do you remember the ground floor of kad suan kaew where we had a mini-osm  
meeting last year? Quite common to have these social meeting points in  
malls. Still kad suan kaew differs as it was much more a general meeting  
place than the place you brought up which focuses on getting actual work  
(study) done.


So if we distinguish we should make a difference on the purpose whether it  
focuses on getting work done (coworking) or social meeting (meeting_place).



Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Study area

[Stephan Knauss]

Dave Swarthout writes:


It is a large area inside a multi-storey shopping
complex that is very similar to a college study hall. It is an enclosed and
air conditioned area equipped with tables and chairs, desks, couches,
cushions, even individual glassed in rooms which can be used for meetings
and conversation.


how about tagging it the same way as the co-working spaces? Can't look it  
up right now, but how is Punspace or Guru's Box tagged?


Stephan

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Re: [Tagging] Study area

[Stephan Knauss]

On 27.02.2014 01:48, Dave Swarthout wrote:

@Martin, I'm not sure about the status of the books but that's not the
prominent feature of this place. I will go back for more details later
but it is definitely not a library.
@Stephan - neither Punspace or Guru's Box are tagged. I brought that
fact up during the meeting we had there and nobody had any ideas.
Punspace is similar to the place I'm reporting here except it is not
free and available for short term rental only.


a while ago it was suggested to use office=coworking for coworking 
places. with fee=yes/no you could also distinguish the free and paid ones.


In the co-working thread is sounded like office is the better key and 
should be preferred over amenity. Still in February a wiki page for the 
amenity key was created.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dcoworking_space

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-November/015668.html

Taginfo:
Count   Key Value
48  amenity coworking_space
15  office  coworking
6   office  coworking_space
2   amenity coworking_place

Stephan


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Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use

[Stephan Knauss]

Hi Richard,

On 28.03.2013 21:21, Richard Welty wrote:

in rural areas, these are predetermined locations for helicopters to set
down to airlift out
urgent medical cases. they are not generally official helipads, just
level grassy areas where
they have arrangements with the landowner.  generally they also have
agreed upon names.



aeroway=helipad
name=Fred's LZ
access=no
emergency=yes
surface=grass

does this seem reasonable?


This rendering would cause all maps which do not evaluate your special 
tagging to show up a helipad at these locations.


I have no problem with some special case tagging. But I prefer it in a 
way in which only software evaluating these special cases also renders it.


Make the default case easy. All applications following your idea and 
creating special purpose maps can evaluate more tags. But you can't 
request every data consumer world-wide to know that your new tag is not 
a helipad in the established way but something else, just because it has 
some additional tags which had not been used in this context before.


Could it be stored inside the emergency key?
so leave away the aeroway and store as emergency=helipad?


Stephan


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