Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

> On May 19, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> I would suggest another wording for this, as courier service ships could be 
> misread as ship e.g.: https://www.iereexpress.com/images/banner16.jpg

Accepts_items / item_pickup? 

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. May 2017, at 23:46, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> Courier:service:ships=yes/no


I would suggest another wording for this, as courier service ships could be 
misread as ship e.g.: https://www.iereexpress.com/images/banner16.jpg

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On May 19, 2017, at 12:36 AM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> If they have a package window I would definitely tag that with shop=courier, 
> but not the whole warehouse.

This is why I wanted to add

Courier:service:ships=yes/no
Courier:service:pickup=yes/no

To the mix. It allows you to specify if this building that is primarily doing 
one job has a window or something for customers to visit.

A "box shop" (like a FedExKinkos or a UPS store) is a retail location. It is a 
retail building on a retail landuse. 

A delivery_centre, with a tiny front office on the front of a tiny warehouse to 
handle a few customers, but is mainly used for package transfer to/from the 
local_hub to tiny trucks for a village is a landuse commercial with a 
commercial building. You aren't going to tag "part" of that building a retail. 
Maybe there is an adjacent part that is building=office, but that is still a 
commercial building. 

A massive warehouse, a local_hub, such as a UPS sort facility for a major city 
like this one 
Dropped Pin
near 7925 Ronson Rd, San Diego, CA 92111, USA
https://goo.gl/maps/5BNsUPdz4XS2

Is a landuse=commercial building=commercial commercial=warehouse 
It has a tiny little customer service place on the front (which is mapped in 
google as a "customer center" ), but that building is _not_ landuse=retail. And 
you can't slice off the little bit on the front and say this "part" is retail. 
You can drop a pin, but that is not very descriptive of the rest of the 
building. 

UPS maps that customer-facing office in the larger warehouse complex, but the 
full facility probably has the same address and a different name; just that 
customer service office has a special name. 

My idea of how to map that was to just put that 

Courier:service:ships=yes/no
Courier:service:pickup=yes/no

Onto the warehouse, but that falls down in this situation, where the office is 
named and listed like it is a separate business. 

Perhaps we need to have 

Shop=courier
Courier=service_office

You can put on a pin and drop on the warehouse where the customer service 
center is or tag a tiny building in the complex).  

I don't want to confuse a customer service counter with a box shop. 

Thoughts? 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> In that respect UPS is not any different from a supermarket or a dry
> cleaner. You go to the shop=supermarket or shop=dry clener but not Tesco's
> warehouse or the central dry cleaning facility.

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about, where an extremely simple solution
yields a big fraction of the benefit. If someone else wants to go mapping
the logistics network, they're welcome, but I suspect that most users who
are asking for this are looking for a simple answer to, "I have a package
(or an overnight letter) to send, where can I go to send it?" They may
want that query to be answered with post offices in addition to couriers,
but ordinarily aren't looking for the other government services that post
offices usually provide. (I might take a post office for mailing a parcel,
but won't take a courier if I need to renew my passport or accept
Poste Restante.)

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

>IMHO The problem at hand is how does a regular OSM user find a courier. At
least for me I need a courier less often than a supermarket but
significantly more often than a pharmacy. So from my viewpoint we should
really focus on the shop aspect for now.

Thinks the same

Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 16.05.2017 um 23:42 schrieb John Willis:

On May 16, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

May I suggest to focus the proposal on the frontend for now?

The front end is the most difficult part, and having a proposal that covers the 
chain and many permutations is important.

For example, I would _never_ go to a UPS sort facility to ship a package, but I 
imagine some do in other countries.
In that respect UPS is not any different from a supermarket or a dry 
cleaner. You go to the shop=supermarket or shop=dry clener but not 
Tesco's warehouse or the central dry cleaning facility.



But tagging a giant commercial warehouse with a package window as 
"shop=courier" seems wrong.
If they have a package window I would definitely tag that with 
shop=courier, but not the whole warehouse.



People may come to the courier=* wiki page to tag a courier's warehouse that 
they see their package is at. Being able to tag it is important. I have added 
regional_hub warehouses in google Maps when I find my package is first accepted 
into the tracking system there. People search for where those facilities are 
all the time.
So that's why a propose shop or amenity. That's clearly the place a 
regular customer goes. The warehouse/sorting hub could get a 
building=warehouse or whatsoever. Taggers should be able to make that 
differentiation. They don't tag the cold storage warehouse around as 
supermarket, either.

After thinking about it a bit, I think we should limit this to 
non-freight/logistics and create a separate logistics=*for trucking/freight/etc 
later. But you should be able to tag a commercial warehouse as part of the 
courier=* tag.


IMHO The problem at hand is how does a regular OSM user find a courier. 
At least for me I need a courier less often than a supermarket but 
significantly more often than a pharmacy. So from my viewpoint we should 
really focus on the shop aspect for now. You now suggest to later 
introduce a logistics=* structure. I think in the backend the 
distinction between courier and freight services gets more complicated 
to not doable. I would really like to not think about that at all for now.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On May 16, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> May I suggest to focus the proposal on the frontend for now?

The front end is the most difficult part, and having a proposal that covers the 
chain and many permutations is important. 

For example, I would _never_ go to a UPS sort facility to ship a package, but I 
imagine some do in other countries. But tagging a giant commercial warehouse 
with a package window as "shop=courier" seems wrong. 

People may come to the courier=* wiki page to tag a courier's warehouse that 
they see their package is at. Being able to tag it is important. I have added 
regional_hub warehouses in google Maps when I find my package is first accepted 
into the tracking system there. People search for where those facilities are 
all the time. 

How people use these different services is really complicated too. I would 
never go to a 7-11 in the US to ship a package, but in Japan, people do. 

In the US, there are no local delivery centers (at least with FedEx/UPS - they 
do local sorting on the trucks themselves; they meet in random parking lots and 
trade packages) the local hub is the last place you will find a big group of 
trucks. In Japan, they have many tiny delivery centers, where tiny trucks 
deliver packages and customers can also ship packages at a small retail 
counter. This is in place of a shop=courier. In urban Tokyo, I imagine they 
have shop=courier,  but out here in suburban/rural we do not. We have a 
"village hub" and a small retail office combined (for each service), called 
delivery_centres. A box shop may offer many shipping options, but a 
delivery_centre is part of the courier's infrastructure, so it is for a single 
operator. 

Having all these pieces laid out allows you to choose the pieces your country 
and region uses and add options to existing businesses to fit local situations 
as well. Choosing one aspect and one way means people will shoehorn other 
things into narrow definitions. (I.E.: shop=courier on a warehouse). 

So shop=courier for "retail" locations, but then you would also need the 
ability to tag a completely separate business that also accepts or acts as a 
shipping counter or pick-up point for a courier. I can ship my Amazon package 
to any combini near my house and pick it up from them when I want. 

Name=FamilyMart 
Shop=convenience
Courier:ships:kuronekoyamato=yes
Courier:ships:sagawa=no
Courier:pickup:kuronekoyamato=yes
Courier:pickup:sagawa=yes
Courier:pickup:Amazon=yes

(Amazon is doing more and more shipping itself and also is "the courier" for 
more and more goods in some countries lately). 

Guy on a bike service (I imagine they have an storefront somewhere that serves 
as their little rest stop or the scheduling office, the smallest location we 
could map).

Name=speedy bike messengers
Shop=courier
Courier:type=messenger
Courier:service=local 
Courier:maxweight=5kg 

I thought about splitting messengers out to shop=messengers, but I imagine the 
line between a messenger And a guy doing courier work in a car is so thin that 
they should be included. 


After thinking about it a bit, I think we should limit this to 
non-freight/logistics and create a separate logistics=*for trucking/freight/etc 
later. But you should be able to tag a commercial warehouse as part of the 
courier=* tag. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

>
I would use amenity=courier for this, maybe a subtag which says something
about scope (local, regional, national, international) and about kind of
shipped goods (parcel, letters/documents, medicine, etc.).

The scope of area of service will be a very helpful subtag, may be we could
decide one which could be reused for other features(like taxi service) too.

cheers

Kelvin

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

> Am 16.05.2017 um 12:20 schrieb Warin:
>
> On 16-May-17 06:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> The tag in the first proposal wasn't chosen badly, it was insufficiently 
> defined. Office is not a good tag for the public facing frontend with 
> counters etc.
>
>
> I disagree.
>
> Shops frequently have counters etc for the public facing front end.
>
> Some offices do too... lawyers, accountants, insurance, etc... have a counter 
> for customers to arrive at.
>
> Should all these things be lumped in to the key amenity??? I think not!
>
> Office is the correct place for it. *"A place predominantly selling 
> services." *Nothing here about how it is configured.
>
> I generaly agree with an office being *"a place **predominantly selling
> services"* but maybe the definition is not specific enough. Let's have a
> look at some examples. Laundries, dry cleaners, hairdressers, massage
> shops, tattoo parlours, money lenders, lottery shops, ticket shops,
> copyshops all predominantly sell services, yet they are all classified
> being shops. Banks and post offices are amenities. I would say a courier
> outlet is much more like a laundry or a copyshop than like a lawyer or
> inscurance. On the other hand it is very close to a post office. So amenity
> and shop come to my mind way before an office.
>
> In another post Andrew Davidson has correctly identified 'Post Office' and
> they are, I would, think to most people around the world viewed differently 
> from couriers.
>
> I will quote it here to save you looking:*The Universal Postal Union is an 
> international organisation
>  that coordinates postal policies among its 192 member countries.
> **One of the requirements of membership is that countries must nominate
> the "operator or operators officially designated to operate postal services" 
> on their territory
> (**http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/questionnaireNotificationOfTheEntityResponsibleCircularLetterEn.pdf
>  
> **).
>  *
>
> Well, times are changing and I wouldn't use UPU for any definition on our
> side. Would you call a DHL parcel outlet a post office? DHL being a brand
> of Deutsche Post is the German operator officially designated to operate
> postal services as defined by UPU.
>
> While a post office seems to still be a certain institution in many
> countries in many others it is not. I cannot even recall when I have been
> to one the last time. All these other available places that have sprung up
> over the past years (couriers, postal shops inside shops, private mail
> operators etc.) take up most of the post office functions. So I am very
> reluctant to treat them any differently.
>
> Tobi
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 16.05.2017 um 12:20 schrieb Warin:

On 16-May-17 06:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


The tag in the first proposal wasn't chosen badly, it was insufficiently 
defined. Office is not a good tag for the public facing frontend with counters 
etc.


I disagree.
Shops frequently have counters etc for the public facing front end.
Some offices do too... lawyers, accountants, insurance, etc... have a counter 
for customers to arrive at.
Should all these things be lumped in to the key amenity??? I think not!
Office is the correct place for it./"A place predominantly selling services." 
/Nothing here about how it is configured.
I generaly agree with an office being /"a place //predominantly selling 
services"/ but maybe the definition is not specific enough. Let's have a 
look at some examples. Laundries, dry cleaners, hairdressers, massage 
shops, tattoo parlours, money lenders, lottery shops, ticket shops, 
copyshops all predominantly sell services, yet they are all classified 
being shops. Banks and post offices are amenities. I would say a courier 
outlet is much more like a laundry or a copyshop than like a lawyer or 
inscurance. On the other hand it is very close to a post office. So 
amenity and shop come to my mind way before an office.



In another post Andrew Davidson has correctly identified 'Post Office' and
they are, I would, think to most people around the world viewed differently 
from couriers.

I will quote it here to save you looking:
/The Universal Postal Union is an international organisation  that 
coordinates postal policies among its 192 member countries. One of the requirements of membership is that countries must nominate 
the "operator or operators officially designated to operate postal 
services" on their territory (//http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/questionnaireNotificationOfTheEntityResponsibleCircularLetterEn.pdf//). /


Well, times are changing and I wouldn't use UPU for any definition on 
our side. Would you call a DHL parcel outlet a post office? DHL being a 
brand of Deutsche Post is the German operator officially designated to 
operate postal services as defined by UPU.


While a post office seems to still be a certain institution in many 
countries in many others it is not. I cannot even recall when I have 
been to one the last time. All these other available places that have 
sprung up over the past years (couriers, postal shops inside shops, 
private mail operators etc.) take up most of the post office functions. 
So I am very reluctant to treat them any differently.


Tobi
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Warin]

On 16-May-17 06:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 16. May 2017, at 09:29, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

May I suggest to focus the proposal on the frontend for now? Let's find a 
proper tagging for the place a customer goes to drop of his parcel, mail his 
letter, buy his stamp, collect his poste restante, do his banking staff or 
whatever. Let's worry about the backend (warehouses, hubs, sorting offices, 
...) at a later time. It's complicated enough and the backend is suitably 
different from amenity/shop/office that worries us now.


I would use amenity=courier for this, maybe a subtag which says something about 
scope (local, regional, national, international) and about kind of shipped 
goods (parcel, letters/documents, medicine, etc.).

The tag in the first proposal wasn't chosen badly, it was insufficiently 
defined. Office is not a good tag for the public facing frontend with counters 
etc.


I disagree.

Shops frequently have counters etc for the public facing front end.

Some offices do too... lawyers, accountants, insurance, etc... have a counter 
for customers to arrive at.

Should all these things be lumped in to the key amenity??? I think not!

Office is the correct place for it./"A place predominantly selling services." 
/Nothing here about how it is configured.

In another post Andrew Davidson has correctly identified 'Post Office' and
they are, I would, think to most people around the world viewed differently 
from couriers.

I will quote it here to save you looking:
/The Universal Postal Union is an international organisation  that 
coordinates postal policies among its 192 member countries. One of the requirements of membership is that countries must nominate 
the "operator or operators officially designated to operate postal 
services" on their territory (//http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/questionnaireNotificationOfTheEntityResponsibleCircularLetterEn.pdf//). /


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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 16.05.2017 um 10:27 schrieb Marc Gemis:

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:

For shops that offer courier services as a minor part / not primarily, it 
should be a property for the shop, maybe with the carrier in the key, e.g. 
amenity=fuel, courier:UPS=yes?

Maybe it's a silly idea, but why do not we map this as 2 nodes  ? This
way, we do not have to come up with 2 sets of keys (one for
amenity=courier and one on anything else).
Both nodes could be connected via a "shop"-relation or whatever you
want to name it.


We need to differentiate a bit more. Here in Germany and I believe it 
happened elsewhere we have former post offices (Deutsche Post) that were 
integrated into other shops keeping almost all of their former functions 
and services, except providing PO boxes and extended business services 
(mass mailing etc.). But then their is a high varity of different 
service combinations. Some offer (some) banking services, some don't. 
Some offer registered mail, others don't. Some just ship parcels, some 
have also regular mail. All of these offer Deutsche Post (incl. DHL) 
services. And then there are the competitors, too.


What I want to say is it's not just placing a second node somewhere. We 
need to define where post_office stops and where courier begins or how 
we describe the situations otherwise.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> For shops that offer courier services as a minor part / not primarily, it 
> should be a property for the shop, maybe with the carrier in the key, e.g. 
> amenity=fuel, courier:UPS=yes?

Maybe it's a silly idea, but why do not we map this as 2 nodes  ? This
way, we do not have to come up with 2 sets of keys (one for
amenity=courier and one on anything else).
Both nodes could be connected via a "shop"-relation or whatever you
want to name it.

m

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Andrew Davidson]

On 15/5/17 22:36, Tobias Wrede wrote:

The bigger concerns focused indeed
around how to reasonably differentiate and use a=post_office and
a/o=courier, especially in worlds where there is no clear
differentiation (any more).


I wouldn't have thought that this would be too hard to do. The Universal 
Postal Union is an international organisation that coordinates postal 
policies among its 192 member countries.


One of the requirements of membership is that countries must nominate 
the "operator or operators officially designated to operate postal 
services" on their territory 
(http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/questionnaireNotificationOfTheEntityResponsibleCircularLetterEn.pdf). 



In the EU the designated operator also seems to be the provider of the 
universal service required under the EU directive.




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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. May 2017, at 02:10, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> Courier:handles:automobiles=yes


I would use a different main tag for shipping trade and couriers. There's a lot 
of shipping going on via cargo trains, ships (container, tanker, etc.), air 
freight and trucks, as well as special transports (heavy/bulky industrial 
goods/machinery, etc.), and it wouldn't be helpful to mix these with the 
courier business where you can ship letters or parcels or other small items. If 
we did it, you'd have to look at the subtags and completely forget about the 
courier tag because it would have all kinds of quite different (for the 
customer) companies/businesses crammed inside which alone would become 
meaningless. It would be like tagging a convenience store and an internet mail 
order with the same main tag.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. May 2017, at 09:29, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> May I suggest to focus the proposal on the frontend for now? Let's find a 
> proper tagging for the place a customer goes to drop of his parcel, mail his 
> letter, buy his stamp, collect his poste restante, do his banking staff or 
> whatever. Let's worry about the backend (warehouses, hubs, sorting offices, 
> ...) at a later time. It's complicated enough and the backend is suitably 
> different from amenity/shop/office that worries us now.


I would use amenity=courier for this, maybe a subtag which says something about 
scope (local, regional, national, international) and about kind of shipped 
goods (parcel, letters/documents, medicine, etc.).

The tag in the first proposal wasn't chosen badly, it was insufficiently 
defined. Office is not a good tag for the public facing frontend with counters 
etc.

For shops that offer courier services as a minor part / not primarily, it 
should be a property for the shop, maybe with the carrier in the key, e.g. 
amenity=fuel, courier:UPS=yes?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On May 15, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> What you write makes a lot of sense. Just, that a lot of that exactly applies 
> to post offices/postal services as well. So why should post_office be an 
> amenity and courier a shop? I still suggest to somehow unify post_office and 
> courier,

Because the infrastructure is similar to _many businesses_, but the "customer 
facing side" of the business - the "post office" - is considered culturally 
different. 

A dentist is a tooth doctor. 
A McDonalds is a restaurant 
A convenience store is a market. 

But we tag them differently based on cultural separation of different things. 
This is difficult sometimes (when is a stream a river?) - but we have to be 
flexible to allow for this. Maybe it _is_ tagged all the same and it is 
presented differently by the data customer rendering it differently in their 
maps, but OSM usually represents these differences in the tag data - the lowest 
level - because OSM's issue is getting people to map the "the ground truth", 
which requires it to cater to people like me: a noob who is not a data consumer 
who wants to map. This requires a tagging system (or very good abstracted 
WYSIWYG editors) for the taggers. This means tagging systems should be 
noob-compliant as much as possible. Representing cultural differences in the 
lowest level of tagging is a good place to start. 

~

I would say a good place to connect courier and the postal services is not at 
the office level, but at the service level. 

My parents ship packages via a box shop because they don't want to mess up the 
customs forms, so they have someone else do it. This box shop ships via many 
services, including the USPS. 

I would say including them in the service when it goes beyond [amenity=mailbox] 
(however you tag a public mail drop box), such as a place that sells parcel 
postage and ships it for you:

Name=overpriced box shop
Building=retail
Shop=courier
Courier:service:USPS=yes. 
Courier:service:UPS=yes
Courier:service:FedEx=no 


The post offices - the culturally separate building - is kept separate, and the 
service is tied into the courier system where it is useful. 

Tagging the back-end of the post system with the same tags (warehouse=courier) 
is probably fine too, but I wouldn't touch "post office" with a 10 foot pole. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 18:51, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> The default resolution to many tagging questions appears to be that the 
> mapper eventually gives up.



you can always add a tag like amenity=courier + name and/or operator=foo and be 
done.

(and later these can eventually be refined).

If you make a proposal it is because you look for a good solution that 
satisfies yours _and others_ needs. If the others find it appropriate (and this 
is where you might or not have been including their comments in your proposal), 
it gets documented as a standard.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is correct that "perfect is the enemy of the good", but if you don't
> even try to make it good, it will very likely be bad ;-)
>

I don't often see that happen in the 'tagging' mailing list. But I've seen
- a good many times by now - people come in with tagging questions, have
the discussion wander off into excessive detail in search of the perfect
tagging scheme, and see the original person simply decide not to map the
feature in question or even leave the community altogether. The default
resolution to many tagging questions appears to be that the mapper
eventually gives up.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-15 16:49 GMT+02:00 Kevin Kenny :

> It may be a difficult idea for a German - I understand that you really
> don't have courier offices over there separate from Bundespost since DHL
> was nationalized - but in the US, we have a common type of shop, with names
> like "FedEx Store" (some are still branded FedEx/Kinko's), "UPS Store",
> "Mail Boxes Etc.", that offer only, or mostly, parcel services (most have
> related services like photocopying).



actually in Germany as in Italy there are a lot of different "big" courier
services besides Deutsche Post/DHL and Poste Italiane (federal Bundespost
is long gone, was split into several parts and privatized 25 years ago),
like UPS, FedEx, TNT, Hermes, GLT, Bartolini, ... There are also 20 or so
"Mailboxes Etc." in Rome. That was never my point, thing is, there are also
lots of very small courier services (like John wrote, a guy and his bike)
and a lot of in-between businesses.

We also have to distinguish between internal logistics centers (sorting,
etc.) and public facing "shops", and possibly combinations of both, and
other businesses like shops/petrol stations etc. offering courier services
besides others (i.e. it will be a property in OSM). "Recently" there are
also new couriers which specialize in sending letters (as opposed to
parcels), e.g. Pin AG in Germany https://www.pin-ag.de/ who have their own
stamps, or "Posta Express" in Italy
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3803189115 http://www.postaexpress.it/

All this said, there are even more services traditional post offices offer,
like banking (sometimes/often), in Italy this includes special kind of very
common money transfer (is used to pay bills like telephone, water,
electricity and more) which is also offered by third parties as a service
(mostly tobacco shops do it, it's called "Bollettino"), and you can usually
also put money there on debit cards issued by the post office ("Poste
pay"). And you can send money to people via the post (not via a bank
account, but with name and address, and the postman will deliver it.
"vaglia postale"). You can also get insurances at the post office. In
Germany you can use the post office for identification purposes ("Post
Ident"). These are just a few examples that come to mind, and surely not an
exhaustive list of available services, but they are good arguments to
distinguish between "real" post offices and other courier offices which
don't offer all those features, so I am not in the "we don't need a new
tag" boat. I'm rather in the "we need more" section.

It is correct that "perfect is the enemy of the good", but if you don't
even try to make it good, it will very likely be bad ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1, these cases should all be addressed and differentiated. Additionally
> it could be needed to separately address letters and parcels. The proposals
> I have seen so far didn't solve this in any way, they didn't even describe
> a subset of these, but rather proposed simply a new word/tag without
> sufficiently defining or differentiating it.
>

It may be a difficult idea for a German - I understand that you really
don't have courier offices over there separate from Bundespost since DHL
was nationalized - but in the US, we have a common type of shop, with names
like "FedEx Store" (some are still branded FedEx/Kinko's), "UPS Store",
"Mail Boxes Etc.", that offer only, or mostly, parcel services (most have
related services like photocopying).

Right now, there doesn't seem to be any way to tag such a shop - and in the
US, at least, we do indeed need one. No USAian would call such a thing a
post office, so force-fitting that tag does not sit well here.

Can we come up with a partial solution to allow these shops to be tagged,
so that mappers can get on with that part, without trying to boil the
ocean? Those that are interested in using OSM as a business directory can
continue working on a taxonomy of services offered, surely. But let's at
least get the things on the map!

The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 14:46, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> 
> "Tag" level - a business that does something else ( a convenience store, a 
> strawberry farm, a department store) that offers courier service in some 
> manner. Be it local delivery or international shipping. 
> 
> "Retail" level:  a shop that is just for people to come in and mail stuff or 
> pick up something. You see this a lot in the US (the UPS Store) they might 
> serve several different courtiers as one (a Box shop).
> 
> Commercial Level:  a local or regional distribution hub with a retail service 
> window/office. Tons of delivery trucks and a big warehouse that manages the 
> local package flow. 
> 
> Commercial warehouse level - regional sort facilities and staging offices. 
> These massive shipping distribution warehouses are private and gigantic. 
> 
> A tiny courier service my just be a guy and his bike. 
> 
> It may be a box shop shipping all services. 
> 
> It may be a regional courier with a single commercial distribution hub where 
> you can still stop by and send packages. 
> 
> It may be a giant sort facility that is private.
> 
> Amenity=* doesn't really cover any of these (unless it is a service offered 
> at a larger business, like a courier window at the airport) and office=* 
> covers *even less* - it would cover the corporate offices of these services - 
> but as I understand office, would not be used to tag any of the other 
> buildings. 
> 
> You also want to tag some information that is helpful, but not perishable. A 
> soft facility is always there. A shop that ships your purchases often does so 
> for a long time. The exact services, pricing, method, times, etc probably 
> often changes *a lot*. I don't think that is worth mapping - but mapping that 
> a shop can let you pickup a UPS delivery or let you ship a DHL package at a 
> convenience store is worth mapping


+1, these cases should all be addressed and differentiated. Additionally it 
could be needed to separately address letters and parcels. The proposals I have 
seen so far didn't solve this in any way, they didn't even describe a subset of 
these, but rather proposed simply a new word/tag without sufficiently defining 
or differentiating it.




cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 15.05.2017 um 14:59 schrieb John Willis:

My email accidentally got sent before I was finished, but I think you see where 
I am going.

What you write makes a lot of sense. Just, that a lot of that exactly 
applies to post offices/postal services as well. So why should 
post_office be an amenity and courier a shop? I still suggest to somehow 
unify post_office and courier, but I admit I don't have a good solution 
to do that.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

My email accidentally got sent before I was finished, but I think you see where 
I am going. 

Shop=courier for a box shop or other retail outlet that "sells" shipping is a 
great place to start. 

The rest is such a big mess of combinations or it is mapping the commercial 
facilities that the service operates. To do it decently and to have enough 
flexibility to map all the different kinds of businesses, as well as the 
various buildings a large service runs  requires tags from different existing 
tags and a top level courier=tag. You can't make a foo=courier tag and think 
that handles the needs of what different people want to see from "how to map a 
courier" 

Javbw 

> On May 15, 2017, at 9:46 PM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> 
> Courier=regional 
> Courier=
> 
> 
> 
> Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

The fact that office=courier doesn't attempt to replace post office seems a 
step in the right direction. 

So let's think of a massive courier - linked a regional or national one. 

This combination will vary, but:

"Tag" level - a business that does something else ( a convenience store, a 
strawberry farm, a department store) that offers courier service in some 
manner. Be it local delivery or international shipping. 

"Retail" level:  a shop that is just for people to come in and mail stuff or 
pick up something. You see this a lot in the US (the UPS Store) they might 
serve several different courtiers as one (a Box shop).

Commercial Level:  a local or regional distribution hub with a retail service 
window/office. Tons of delivery trucks and a big warehouse that manages the 
local package flow. 

Commercial warehouse level - regional sort facilities and staging offices. 
These massive shipping distribution warehouses are private and gigantic. 

A tiny courier service my just be a guy and his bike. 

It may be a box shop shipping all services. 

It may be a regional courier with a single commercial distribution hub where 
you can still stop by and send packages. 

It may be a giant sort facility that is private.
 
Amenity=* doesn't really cover any of these (unless it is a service offered at 
a larger business, like a courier window at the airport) and office=* covers 
*even less* - it would cover the corporate offices of these services - but as I 
understand office, would not be used to tag any of the other buildings. 

You also want to tag some information that is helpful, but not perishable. A 
soft facility is always there. A shop that ships your purchases often does so 
for a long time. The exact services, pricing, method, times, etc probably often 
changes *a lot*. I don't think that is worth mapping - but mapping that a shop 
can let you pickup a UPS delivery or let you ship a DHL package at a 
convenience store is worth mapping. 

You need a "courier" set:

Courier=*
Shop=courier  (a retail location) 
Commercial=courier
Warehouse=courier 

Courier=yes means there is some courier related services offered, but the 
nature is unknown. 

Courier:type=

=point 
Offers courier services at their shop
=shop 
is a retail shop for courier service (or many) 
=delivery_centre 
(the "last mile" office of some courier services, which have many "local" 
delivery centers , rather than having 2-3 large ones for a big city. For 
example, there are 30 or more kurokeno centers in Japan for every 1 UPS local 
sort warehouse in the US. They are tiny and small and cover maybe 2-4 sq km per 
office in suburban areas.) 

=local_hub 
the main sorting hub for a city or a few towns together. 
=regional_hub (for connecting regional)
=national hub (unneeded?) 
=international_hub (for international services at an airport or border 
facilities on the "inside" of customs. 


(Each higher one includes the smaller one; only one needed) 
Courier:service:local=yes 
Courier:service:regional=yes
Courier:service:national=yes 
Courier:service:international=yes 

Courier:service:*=purchases they will ship items purchased at their shop (very 
common for tourists areas) 

For any building where the brand or operator tag is the shipping service: 
Courier:ship=yes
Courier:pickup=yes. 

For business that offer shipping as an amenity or multiple brands
Courier:__brand__:ship=yes
Courier:__brand__:pickup=yes
For business that do business as a shipping and/or pickup point for a carrier 
(like picking up a package at a convenience store). 



Courier=regional 
Courier=



Javbw

> On May 15, 2017, at 7:45 PM, muzirian  wrote:
> 
> I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to scrap the 
> proposal and use post office instead?
> 
> Regards

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi,

Am 15.05.2017 um 12:45 schrieb muzirian:
I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to 
scrap the proposal and use post office instead?


Regards


Well, when reading through the comments of the no voters (and the 
comments here in the thread) I believe that it was only a small concern 
that office would fit better than amenity. Actually, I myself find 
amenity much better than office. The bigger concerns focused indeed 
around how to reasonably differentiate and use a=post_office and 
a/o=courier, especially in worlds where there is no clear 
differentiation (any more).


I'm totally for introducing some new tagging allowing for describing 
courier services. But I am at the same time against setting another 
narrowly defined tag into stone where we need a broader approach. I 
believe we need something that
a) is able to describe a "traditional" postal service as it is still 
found in many countries by whatever that means there,

b) is able to describe outlets of private/new mail services,
c) is able to describe outlets of private/new parcel/courier services,
d) is able to describe any mixture or subset thereof,
e) is able to describe mail and courier related services offered by 
other amenities on behalf of the mail/courier companies (shipping 
parcels in a grocery store, mailing letters in a tobacco shop, ...).


I don't propose any ready solution for that. It could mean we stay with 
just amenity=post_office and add appropriate sub tags (something like 
post_office:mail=yes/no/shipping, 
post_office_parcels=yes/no/shipping/receiving, 
post_office:banking=yes/no, ). Or something else.


Coming back to your original question: I don't see how mainly changing 
the proposal from a=courier to o=courier addresses any of those raised 
questions I just described.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to scrap the
proposal and use post office instead?

Regards

On Monday, May 15, 2017, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

> Hi  Kelvin,
>
> I still don't see how this proposal addresses any of the many concerns
> brought forward in the previous amenity=courier voting or this thread. Just
> changing amenity to office doesn't make the whole post-office/courier
> tagging any better (quite the opposite in my opinion).
>
> Tobi
>
>
> Am 12.05.2017 um 11:43 schrieb muzirian:
>
> Is it okay to push this to voting again?
>
> Regards
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, John Willis  > wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede > > wrote:
>>
>> Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:
>>
>> If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.
>>
>>
>> I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's
>> brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store.
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the message he
>> is quoting from in it’s entirety
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>>
>> ~
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede > > wrote:
>>
>> a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the
>> assortment of the store.
>>
>>
>> This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional assumption
>> of what goods/services are available varies not only by "brand", but what
>> each type of shop offers varies by culture - similar to what is available
>> at a "drug store" and a "pharmacy". A drug store in the US often has a
>> prescription pharmacy in the back.
>> What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to the
>> regional variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or a post
>> office, but at least there is a clear separation between OTC and
>> prescription drugs in most countries.
>>
>> A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a drug
>> store offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other cultures, for
>> cultural or legal reasons, they might be separated, like here in Japan. So
>> there is a need for both a "pharmacy" (chemist?) and a "drug store".
>>
>> Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription pharmacy
>> as an amenity offered by a drug store or a department store.
>>
>> I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception medication
>> and nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly) always part of a
>> larger drug store that sells chocolate and vitamins and OTC drugs and other
>> not-drug stuff the Prescription drugs are just another thing they offer.
>> But in Japan, the OTC stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a
>> prescription shop is very tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions,
>> nothing else _at all_.
>>
>> Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and "we can
>> separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we need to tag them
>> in a different manner" breaks the tagging system for all of them
>> completely, and does little to address the need for the "amenity" tag
>> needed to add it onto larger businesses that offer an entire business'
>> service as a department in their store - like a garden center at DIY shop,
>> a custom-order cake shop inside a supermarket, or package drop-off
>> for a courier at a convenience store.
>>
>> Javbw.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi  Kelvin,

I still don't see how this proposal addresses any of the many concerns 
brought forward in the previous amenity=courier voting or this thread. 
Just changing amenity to office doesn't make the whole 
post-office/courier tagging any better (quite the opposite in my opinion).


Tobi


Am 12.05.2017 um 11:43 schrieb muzirian:

Is it okay to push this to voting again?

Regards


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, John Willis > wrote:




On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede > wrote:

Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:

If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.


I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a
supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the
assortment of the store.


I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the
message he is quoting from in it’s entirety

Javbw


~




On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede > wrote:

a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards
the assortment of the store.


This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional
assumption of what goods/services are available varies not only by
"brand", but what each type of shop offers varies by culture -
similar to what is available at a "drug store" and a "pharmacy". A
drug store in the US often has a prescription pharmacy in the back.
What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to
the regional variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or
a post office, but at least there is a clear separation between
OTC and prescription drugs in most countries.

A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a
drug store offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other
cultures, for cultural or legal reasons, they might be separated,
like here in Japan. So there is a need for both a "pharmacy"
(chemist?) and a "drug store".

Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription
pharmacy as an amenity offered by a drug store or a department store.

I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception
medication and nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly)
always part of a larger drug store that sells chocolate and
vitamins and OTC drugs and other not-drug stuff the Prescription
drugs are just another thing they offer. But in Japan, the OTC
stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a prescription
shop is very tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions, nothing
else _at all_.

Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and
"we can separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we
need to tag them in a different manner" breaks the tagging system
for all of them completely, and does little to address the need
for the "amenity" tag needed to add it onto larger businesses that
offer an entire business' service as a department in their store -
like a garden center at DIY shop, a custom-order cake shop inside
a supermarket, or package drop-off for a courier at a
convenience store.

Javbw.

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

Is it okay to push this to voting again?

Regards


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, John Willis  wrote:

>
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
>
> Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:
>
> If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.
>
>
> I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's
> brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store.
>
>
>
> I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the message he
> is quoting from in it’s entirety
>
> Javbw
>
>
> ~
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
>
> a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the
> assortment of the store.
>
>
> This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional assumption
> of what goods/services are available varies not only by "brand", but what
> each type of shop offers varies by culture - similar to what is available
> at a "drug store" and a "pharmacy". A drug store in the US often has a
> prescription pharmacy in the back.
> What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to the
> regional variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or a post
> office, but at least there is a clear separation between OTC and
> prescription drugs in most countries.
>
> A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a drug
> store offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other cultures, for
> cultural or legal reasons, they might be separated, like here in Japan. So
> there is a need for both a "pharmacy" (chemist?) and a "drug store".
>
> Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription pharmacy as
> an amenity offered by a drug store or a department store.
>
> I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception medication
> and nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly) always part of a
> larger drug store that sells chocolate and vitamins and OTC drugs and other
> not-drug stuff the Prescription drugs are just another thing they offer.
> But in Japan, the OTC stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a
> prescription shop is very tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions,
> nothing else _at all_.
>
> Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and "we can
> separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we need to tag them
> in a different manner" breaks the tagging system for all of them
> completely, and does little to address the need for the "amenity" tag
> needed to add it onto larger businesses that offer an entire business'
> service as a department in their store - like a garden center at DIY shop,
> a custom-order cake shop inside a supermarket, or package drop-off
> for a courier at a convenience store.
>
> Javbw.
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis: 
>> If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed. 
> 
> I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's 
> brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store. 

I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the message he is 
quoting from in it’s entirety

Javbw


~



> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede  > wrote:
> 
> a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment 
> of the store.

This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional assumption of 
what goods/services are available varies not only by "brand", but what each 
type of shop offers varies by culture - similar to what is available at a "drug 
store" and a "pharmacy". A drug store in the US often has a prescription 
pharmacy in the back.
What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to the regional 
variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or a post office, but at 
least there is a clear separation between OTC and prescription drugs in most 
countries. 

A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a drug store 
offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other cultures, for cultural or 
legal reasons, they might be separated, like here in Japan. So there is a need 
for both a "pharmacy" (chemist?) and a "drug store".

Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription pharmacy as an 
amenity offered by a drug store or a department store. 

I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception medication and 
nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly) always part of a larger drug 
store that sells chocolate and vitamins and OTC drugs and other not-drug stuff 
the Prescription drugs are just another thing they offer. But in Japan, the OTC 
stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a prescription shop is very 
tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions, nothing else _at all_. 

Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and "we can 
separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we need to tag them in 
a different manner" breaks the tagging system for all of them completely, and 
does little to address the need for the "amenity" tag needed to add it onto 
larger businesses that offer an entire business' service as a department in 
their store - like a garden center at DIY shop, a custom-order cake shop inside 
a supermarket, or package drop-off for a courier at a convenience store. 

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:

If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.

Post offices have different scopes in different places, ways we 
usually separate by tag, because we separate "duckiness" by tag. This 
varies by region, so we need a way to represent both, and we have 
existing tags as well.
[...] This is not something left to "operator". Brand is for 
separating similar items - a Burger King vs a McDonalds - not to 
separate steakhouses from a butcher shop. We are deciding where to 
draw the lines on scope, like convenience stores, markets, 
supermarkets, and malls.


I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's 
brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store.



The sticky point seems to be that because nationalized post services 
and commercial courier services are available in different places 
*beyond* the traditional offices - buying stamps at a gas station, box 
shops that ship via post and courier systems, etc, that the "amenity" 
of a location that offers post/courier service is blurred in many 
places, or the post''s importance in some places has dwindled, 
relegating it to be a courier. We should be figuring out how to handle 
assigning the "amenity" of those services (similar to how a hotel has 
a workout room, but that doesn't make the hotel a gym) to other kinds 
of businesses, in a way where we can have multiple values. A hotel has 
parking, a pool, gym, etc, but it is foremost a "hotel" with various 
amenities. Having a dedicated courier or post office tag isn't so much 
of an issue - in many places with a traditional post system, it is 
still different enough to warrant separate tags. it's adding these 
courier/post options to other businesses or shops that needs to be 
worked out. Mashing post offices and courier services together is not 
going to solve that issue nor improve OSM tagging in any appreciable way.


[...]
Having a tagging system to add that onto another shop sounds like that 
is what people are looking for, if I understand correctly.


At least that is part of it. Along the convenience store supermarket 
analogy maybe we need something like the amenity=post_office for the 
traditional ones and an amenity=shipping_services (just a working title) 
for everything else, not just couriers. That would work at least for the 
dedicated shops. For the in-shop services provided in kiosks etc. it 
might be a different tagging.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Marc Gemis:
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Tobias Wrede  
wrote:

With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers
registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass 
mail
and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post 
office".

amenity=courier ; brand = ...
or
amenity=postal_office ; brand=...


Yes. But which?

What I want to say is that simply introducing a *=courier  along the 
already existing amenity=post_office opens more questions for me than it 
answers.


Don't get me wrong. I am totally in favor of a tag I can attach to a UPS 
store or a kiosk shipping DHL parcels. I just think that leaving 
post_office as it is and simply adding a courier tag ignores the 
situation of changing ways theses services are delivered today.


Tobi

resending to the list. darned. How do I get Thunderbird to answer to the 
list automatically?



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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers
> registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass mail
> and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post office".

amenity=courier ; brand = ...
or
amenity=postal_office ; brand=...

+ website to see which services they offer at which prices and under
which conditions.

The details you mention fall in the same category as a product price
list of supermarkets or any other shop and do not belong in OSM IMHO.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Apr 2017, at 05:13, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> I still believe that for the feature at hand it is enough to have
> amenity=courier, just so we can distinguish it from the traditional
> postal_office.


I also believe we should have a tagging scheme for various kinds of couriers, 
but I don't think the presented proposal was sufficient for this, as did a 
majority of voting mappers.


> Do we need subtags for courier yet ? I do not think so.
> 
> We are mapping supermarkets/convenience stores which offer different
> products/services for more than 10 years without subtags to
> differentiate between hypermarkets, discounters, supermarkets that
> offer a services of a licensed butcher, etc.


it would also be nice to have these details codified, my guess is locals don't 
need it because they know what to expect by name and brand, so this wasn't 
dealt with yet. Generally it isn't an argument to point at other 
insufficiencies.

10 years ago, the situation was different, if food retail would be proposed 
now, people would likely request a more refined scheme.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 05:13 schrieb Marc Gemis:

I still believe that for the feature at hand it is enough to have
amenity=courier, just so we can distinguish it from the traditional
postal_office. Do we need subtags for courier yet ? I do not think so.

We are mapping supermarkets/convenience stores which offer different
products/services for more than 10 years without subtags to
differentiate between hypermarkets, discounters, supermarkets that
offer a services of a licensed butcher, etc. Any attempt on adding
detail to this was seen as unneeded for OSM, yet we demand this level
of detail from a 1.0 proposal for courier services ?

If we are mapping supermarkets with different services and that is 
enough why do we need to distinguish between a "traditional post office" 
and a courier?


From reading the posts to this list I understand countries like Japan 
and UK still have a very distinct separation between the two. OK. If 
there is the Royal Mail and the Japan Post they can be tagged as 
operator or brand to make that clear then in my opinion.


But in many countries, including Germany there are so many shades of 
gray between a full service traditional post office and a pure parcel 
drop-off/pick up service I wouldn't know how to draw the line. All the 
"traditional" post offices are couriers as well. And they are banks 
("Postbank" in Germany, which belongs to Deutsche Bank nowadays). On the 
extreme side there are offices of different postal services fully 
dedicated to letter related services, there are couriers (various 
companies) and there are Postbank "financial centers". And then there is 
everything between, as stand-alone shops or embedded into a convenience 
store, kiosk, bakery etc.


With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers 
registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass 
mail and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post 
office".


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

Thanks Marc Gemis, I would also suggest the same.But I just don't wish this
to be rejected because it isn't included.

Cheers
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

I still believe that for the feature at hand it is enough to have
amenity=courier, just so we can distinguish it from the traditional
postal_office. Do we need subtags for courier yet ? I do not think so.

We are mapping supermarkets/convenience stores which offer different
products/services for more than 10 years without subtags to
differentiate between hypermarkets, discounters, supermarkets that
offer a services of a licensed butcher, etc. Any attempt on adding
detail to this was seen as unneeded for OSM, yet we demand this level
of detail from a 1.0 proposal for courier services ?

m.




On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:15 PM, John Willis  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Javbw
>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
>>
>> In my area in Germany only the big main "Deutsche Post" offices of a city 
>> have survived.
>
> This is true in the US - I have maybe 3 post offices I can think of in 4-5 KM 
> of my old house in San Diego.
>
> I went to google maps on my phone and set the zoom to the smallest map where 
> the scale still shows 2KM as the legend of the scale (roughly 10x20km) on a 
> large phone.
>
> In La Mesa & El Cajon, I had 7 post offices. In Kiryu & Omama, I had 17. 
> There is one about every KM downtown and one every 4 KM in the more rural 
> area.
>
> So distribution is going to vary wildly by country.
>
> This might make it more important where there are fewer ones - if I am 
> looking for a post office in particular in the US - I will have a more 
> limited selection, so showing the closest one is most important. In Japan, 
> unless you are in a very rural/uninhabited area, drive for 10 minutes in any 
> direction and you will hit a post office along a secondary road.
>
> Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Apr 24, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> In my area in Germany only the big main "Deutsche Post" offices of a city 
> have survived.

This is true in the US - I have maybe 3 post offices I can think of in 4-5 KM 
of my old house in San Diego.  

I went to google maps on my phone and set the zoom to the smallest map where 
the scale still shows 2KM as the legend of the scale (roughly 10x20km) on a 
large phone. 

In La Mesa & El Cajon, I had 7 post offices. In Kiryu & Omama, I had 17. There 
is one about every KM downtown and one every 4 KM in the more rural area. 

So distribution is going to vary wildly by country. 

This might make it more important where there are fewer ones - if I am looking 
for a post office in particular in the US - I will have a more limited 
selection, so showing the closest one is most important. In Japan, unless you 
are in a very rural/uninhabited area, drive for 10 minutes in any direction and 
you will hit a post office along a secondary road. 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

> there are even more different kinds of businesses, e.g. in big cities
there are often courier services that only operate locally, with cars,
bicycles or light motorcycles. It is not clear which kind of courier is
addressed with the current proposal and I would also expect the suggestion
of subtags to differentiate between the various kinds of services

+1 It would be nice to include more sub tags to differentiate between
different types of courier services.Can you please add more ideas on that
to the talk page?

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Apr 2017, at 16:50, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> So, disapproving of amenity/office=courier does not mean I ignore other 
> countries' traditions and tagging needs. I disapprove because this pair of 
> post_office and courier would polarize the services where there is no clear 
> differentiation anymore in many places. Keeping post_office and courier as 
> two distinct amenities/offices would in the same way ignore some countries' 
> traditions and tagging needs.


+1, and there are even more different kinds of businesses, e.g. in big cities 
there are often courier services that only operate locally, with cars, bicycles 
or light motorcycles. It is not clear which kind of courier is addressed with 
the current proposal and I would also expect the suggestion of subtags to 
differentiate between the various kinds of services 

cheers 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 16.04.2017 um 17:30 schrieb muzirian:
>And (speaking as an American), if someone asked me to direct them to 
a post office, unless they were obviously about to send a parcel, I 
wouldn't send them to FedEx or the local copy shop (most of which 
offer shipping services, and some of which also offer a mailbox service).


Thanks for clarifying the case for US, I guess this is the same for 
most places.


Regards
Kelvin
Since sending someone to the nearest post office from here (in Germany) 
would require quite a bit of walking I'd rather ask if the person could 
also do with a Deutsche Post (DHL) parcel shop (in the same street) 
where they can send parcels and buy stamps, a Hermes parcel shop (two 
blocks away) where they can end parcels or a Deutsche Post franchised 
branch (500 m away) where they can send parcels and letters, buy stamps, 
send registered mails. But maybe they want to rent a PO Box or like to 
submit commercial mail (at discount) either for which they need the real 
post office 5km away. Which of those is amenity post_office now?


Tobi
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 15.04.2017 um 20:04 schrieb Marc Gemis:

As I wrote before, it is not because something does not exists in one
country, that one has to vote against a proposal. One has to try to
understand that different countries with different traditions and
tagging needs.


Exactly, but these proposals do no help in that respect, either.


So in case there would be a office of one of those couriers where one
can only bring parcels, it would be nice to have a different key.

I also do not understand why people do not want that there are 2
different "top" level tags for those two concepts. If you need to use
the data, you can still merge the 2 features. That is much easier than
trying to split them, especially since the proposed tagging is
amenity=post_office and amenity=post_office + courier=yes. Which means
that the current data consumers will make no difference between the
two.

We have different words for the two concepts in many languages, so why
can't we use those two words in mapping/tagging ?
Ten years ago I would have agreed. Today there are not two (2) concepts 
anymore but there is a wide range of different marketing channels used 
offering the discussed services to varying degrees. It has been noted 
several times in this thread what people would point to if asked for the 
nearest post office. I must admit I would really have to think hard 
where to find the nearest "traditional" one.


In my area in Germany only the big main "Deutsche Post" offices of a 
city have survived. All the rural and suburban offices have been closed 
and their services are now carried out in so called Deutsche Post 
branches by tobacco shops, bakeries, laundries, kiosks, you name it. I 
guess most of them offer letter and parcel related services but not all 
of them offer banking related services, none have PO boxes. Then there 
are parcel shops of Deutsche Post located in the same kind of amenities 
that focus more on the parcel business but some of them also sell stamps 
for letters (but you would fail to leave a registered mailing there). 
Poste restante for letters and parcels is possible in some but not in 
others.


Then there are several competitors of Deutsche Post in the latter 
business, many only operating in certain regions. They have offices, 
too. Are these post offices? But many (all?) of those do not offer 
parcel services let alone banking services.


The couriers also operate via parcel shops like Deutsche Post. I haven't 
seen a real UPS or other brand's outlet around here but thy might exist.


Stamps can be bought and sometimes letters can be mailed in many 
souvenir and tobacco shops, too, without any affiliation to a post office


So, disapproving of amenity/office=courier does not mean I ignore other 
countries' traditions and tagging needs. I disapprove because this pair 
of post_office and courier would polarize the services where there is no 
clear differentiation anymore in many places. Keeping post_office and 
courier as two distinct amenities/offices would in the same way ignore 
some countries' traditions and tagging needs.


Rather than having this new proposal for a courier office tweaked and 
pressed through I would prefer a generally revised tagging scheme in 
that context.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

>And (speaking as an American), if someone asked me to direct them to a
post office, unless they were obviously about to send a parcel, I wouldn't
send them to FedEx or the local copy shop (most of which offer shipping
services, and some of which also offer a mailbox service).

Thanks for clarifying the case for US, I guess this is the same for most
places.

Regards
Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On 04/16/2017 06:01 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:


On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:54 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



My impression is that worldwide the branding of 'Post Office'
implies a government run service with international links to other
'Post Offices'.
A 'posted' item would be through the 'Post Office' no mater the
sending or receiving countries. 



That's where it gets messy again, since Federal Express was previously 
an internal government service, and got spun off and privatized, yet 
still handles the USPS's international services, evidently in a way 
that parallels the DHL situation.


Where on Earth did you get that?  Federal Express was founded as a 
private corporation in 1971 by a gentleman by the name of Fred Smith. It 
is and has always been privately owned.


US Postal Service has outsourced its air carriage since the passage of 
the Contract Air Mail Act of 1925. FedEx does indeed hold an exclusive 
contract for international overnight express service at the moment (it's 
up for negotiation again in five years). Domestically, United, UPS, 
Eagle Express, Kalitta Air, Delta and American are the largest mail 
carriers.


The Boeing 727 aircraft you used to see with USPS livery were in fact 
contract aircraft, owned and operated by UPS.


FedEx is not and has never been a government agency nor under government 
ownership.


And (speaking as an American), if someone asked me to direct them to a 
post office, unless they were obviously about to send a parcel, I 
wouldn't send them to FedEx or the local copy shop (most of which offer 
shipping services, and some of which also offer a mailbox service).



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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>> I doubt people will go to DHL/UPS/... to send their Christmas cards.
>
>
> why? Maybe those mentioned offer only parcel shipping but there are also 
> private letter mail operators in some places

I cannot find anything on the DHL about letters, only about parcels.
And also the price, it costs at least 4 EUR for sending a parcel to a
shop, 6 EUR for home delivery.
Sending a letter via regular post (which might take longer to be
delivered) is cheaper.

Of course this can change in the future and maybe one day there is no
difference anymore. But now there is a IMHO a clear difference in
Belgium. But
we map the current situation, not the future :-)


m.

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:54 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> My impression is that worldwide the branding of 'Post Office' implies a
> government run service with international links to other 'Post Offices'.
> A 'posted' item would be through the 'Post Office' no mater the sending or
> receiving countries.


That's where it gets messy again, since Federal Express was previously an
internal government service, and got spun off and privatized, yet still
handles the USPS's international services, evidently in a way that
parallels the DHL situation.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Warin]

On 16-Apr-17 05:34 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:



On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Marc Gemis > wrote:


On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson > wrote:
> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an
operator other than
> the state?

So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
that you send me to a DHL office ?


If it's not unambiguous by context that one is expecting a US Post 
Office specifically, I might point you in the direction of a Postal 
Annex, UPS Store, FedEx Office or Lone Star Express, since they all 
offer approximately the same services (passport photos, shipping and 
packaging being the common elements) and are probably closer than a US 
Post Office.  Now, if someone were to ask me "Where's the post office 
for 74137", then I'd give 'em directions to the US Post Office in 
downtown Jenks, Oklahoma, which serves that town and adjacent 
neighborhoods in Tulsa.




When I ask for a 'post office' in Australia, New Zealand or the UK ... I 
get directed to a government run official Post Office (Australia Post, 
New Zealand Post or Royal Mail).
It has been some time, but when I was last in Greece and asked for a 
'post office' the directions then were also to a government run official 
Post Office.

I would find it most strange to be directed to a courier!

I have had some difficulty in getting some American internet firms to 
'post' stuff rather than 'courier' it.
Once they do it though they seam less reluctant the next time, once I 
even got a email saying how efficient the USPS was for the dispatch.
There are some US firms that only send by USPS! There are others that 
refuse to do so and therefore lack my custom.


My impression is that worldwide the branding of 'Post Office' implies a 
government run service with international links to other 'Post Offices'.
A 'posted' item would be through the 'Post Office' no mater the sending 
or receiving countries.


A 'couriered' item could be dispatched by one firm and then delivered by 
another firm as some firms do not have worldwide coverage but rely on 
agreements with other firms.


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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

> I would expect from the proposal to define which places are to get the
tag:

Made them clear on proposal.



On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>> I doubt people will go to DHL/UPS/... to send their Christmas cards.
>
>
> Not to sound contrarian, but why not?  When I was homeless, my "permanent
> address" was a rental box at a UPS Store by where I went to high school.
> FedEx Office is the only courier office that doesn't accept US Mail to send
> out and the only one that comes to mind other than Lone Star Express that
> doesn't typically have mailboxes to rent.
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> I doubt people will go to DHL/UPS/... to send their Christmas cards.


Not to sound contrarian, but why not?  When I was homeless, my "permanent
address" was a rental box at a UPS Store by where I went to high school.
FedEx Office is the only courier office that doesn't accept US Mail to send
out and the only one that comes to mind other than Lone Star Express that
doesn't typically have mailboxes to rent.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> > How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other
> than
> > the state?
>
> So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
> that you send me to a DHL office ?
>

If it's not unambiguous by context that one is expecting a US Post Office
specifically, I might point you in the direction of a Postal Annex, UPS
Store, FedEx Office or Lone Star Express, since they all offer
approximately the same services (passport photos, shipping and packaging
being the common elements) and are probably closer than a US Post Office.
Now, if someone were to ask me "Where's the post office for 74137", then
I'd give 'em directions to the US Post Office in downtown Jenks, Oklahoma,
which serves that town and adjacent neighborhoods in Tulsa.

I don't believe DHL has customer-facing locations in the US at this point,
though; I seem to recall since they're Germany's national courrier that
they had a bit of a terf spat with the USPS, our national courier.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Apr 2017, at 20:04, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> We have different words for the two concepts in many languages, so why
> can't we use those two words in mapping/tagging ?


is it really 2 different concepts and not maybe more?

Ciao, Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Apr 2017, at 20:04, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> In Belgium you can e.g buy tax stamps in a post office, and not in a
> courier office.


this could change any time though. In Italy you can buy tax stamps at tobacco 
shops.


> I doubt people will go to DHL/UPS/... to send their Christmas cards.


why? Maybe those mentioned offer only parcel shipping but there are also 
private letter mail operators in some places 


> We also know that you  can do certain money transactions in a post
> office, etc.


technically in the places I am aware, these operations are done in a "bank" 
section of the post office, and not every office does them, and it should be 
considered to tag these parts as banks.

I would expect from the proposal to define which places are to get the tag:

- is public access/a counter required? Or is this also e.g. for an office where 
you would call to have someone pick up your mail?

- what about distribution centers (e.g. huge distribution and sorting 
warehouses alongside big roads and motorways)?

etc.

Currently this is not defined, and would lead to quite different places 
(functionally) getting the same tag

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> In Germany this is the same :
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post

As I wrote before, it is not because something does not exists in one
country, that one has to vote against a proposal. One has to try to
understand that different countries with different traditions and
tagging needs.

In Belgium you can e.g buy tax stamps in a post office, and not in a
courier office.
I doubt people will go to DHL/UPS/... to send their Christmas cards.
We also know that you  can do certain money transactions in a post
office, etc.

So in case there would be a office of one of those couriers where one
can only bring parcels, it would be nice to have a different key.

I also do not understand why people do not want that there are 2
different "top" level tags for those two concepts. If you need to use
the data, you can still merge the 2 features. That is much easier than
trying to split them, especially since the proposed tagging is
amenity=post_office and amenity=post_office + courier=yes. Which means
that the current data consumers will make no difference between the
two.

We have different words for the two concepts in many languages, so why
can't we use those two words in mapping/tagging ?

m.

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

If made simple, Deutsche Post is the brand name for postal serives and DHL
is the name for logistics/courier services from what I understand from the
wiki.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

Deutsche Post DHL Group still has different divisions. check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post#Post.2C_ecommerce.2C_Parcel_division
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post_(brand).
I think they should come under post office tag.

While  DHL Express can be counted as courier service.

"The postal division delivers approximately 59 million letters every
working day in Germany,[14]
 and provides
services across the entire mail value chain, including production
facilities at central hubs, sales offices and production centers on four
continents." "The Express division offers worldwide courier, express and
parcel shipment service, combining air and ground transport, under the DHL
brand." (from the wiki u mentioned)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post#Post.2C_ecommerce.2C_Parcel_division
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DHL_Express

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
>
> In Germany this is the same :
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post
>
>
> Am 15.04.2017 um 17:04 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson 
wrote:
> >> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator
other than
> >> the state?
> > So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
> > that you send me to a DHL office ?
> >
> > m
> >
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Thilo Haug OSM]

In Germany this is the same :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post


Am 15.04.2017 um 17:04 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other than
>> the state?
> So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
> that you send me to a DHL office ?
>
> m
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other than
> the state?

So if I ask you "where is the nearest post office?" , it is possible
that you send me to a DHL office ?

m

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

This has been addressed several times on the list for the previous proposal
as well as on the main page and discuss page of previous proposal.And this
same thing is mentioned on the last few mails of the main thread for this
rfc,if you are following.
I hope you are following,If not please check the main thread and please
continue the discussion there.

Regards
Kelvin

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:00 AM, muzirian  wrote:
>
>> I have been trying to address all the suggestions mentioned on the other
>> problem, if you feel I missed something.Please feel to talk about it.It
>> will help greatly if you can explain it in bit more detail or mention it on
>> the talk page.
>>
>
> How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other
> than the state?
>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:00 AM, muzirian  wrote:

> I have been trying to address all the suggestions mentioned on the other
> problem, if you feel I missed something.Please feel to talk about it.It
> will help greatly if you can explain it in bit more detail or mention it on
> the talk page.
>

How is it not a post office that just happens to have an operator other
than the state?
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

Also looks like you have started another thread on the topic.

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:30 PM, muzirian  wrote:

> I have been trying to address all the suggestions mentioned on the other
> problem, if you feel I missed something.Please feel to talk about it.It
> will help greatly if you can explain it in bit more detail or mention it on
> the talk page.
>
> Regards
> Kelvin
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Looks like bike-shedding the previous proposal without addressing the
>> root problem.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:48 AM, muzirian  wrote:
>>
>>> The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another
>>> suggestion office=courier.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Kelvin
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

I have been trying to address all the suggestions mentioned on the other
problem, if you feel I missed something.Please feel to talk about it.It
will help greatly if you can explain it in bit more detail or mention it on
the talk page.

Regards
Kelvin

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Looks like bike-shedding the previous proposal without addressing the root
> problem.
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:48 AM, muzirian  wrote:
>
>> The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another
>> suggestion office=courier.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier
>>
>> Regards
>> Kelvin
>>
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

>Would you clarify how to use "courier:brand=yes/office/subsidiary"?
It was taken from a a suggestion on the other previos proposal, i will add
more info on that.

Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Paul Johnson]

Looks like bike-shedding the previous proposal without addressing the root
problem.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:48 AM, muzirian  wrote:

> The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another
> suggestion office=courier.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier
>
> Regards
> Kelvin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:02 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> I'm surprised people can't see the separation (or understand it might be
> different in other countries), similar to how police and fire services are
> different from a armored truck service or a home security company.


Yes, it seems sometimes hard to convince people that the situation is one
country (or continent) can be totally different from the rest of the world.
And since the voting process is dominated by certain groups, anything that
is not common to the UK-US-Germany is harder  to get accepted, at least
that is my impression. I am thinking e.g. about the named junctions, as
well as this proposal. That's a pity.

Maybe as a community we should try harder to understand the cultural
differences before casting a vote ? Sometimes we try to generalize to hard
in our tagging definitions I think. Let the generalization to the data
consumer and allow the mappers to map specific stuff.


m

p.s. I probably have made that same mistake myself and might easily make it
again. It's too easy to project your local situation to similar, yet
different concepts existing elsewhere.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Apr 15, 2017, at 7:48 AM, muzirian  wrote:
> 
> But still many vote against just because they think post office tag is enough 
> for this

I'm surprised people can't see the separation (or understand it might be 
different in other countries), similar to how police and fire services are 
different from a armored truck service or a home security company. There are 
some overlap - but if you confused a post office and a Local kuroneko delivery 
branch with similar signage/iconography/etc here in Japan, people would en 
masse abandon your map - they are used so much more often than a US post office 
and treated so differently. 

They have a written character (a variant of テ) in their language that is only 
used for post offices:  〒 using it for anything else is actively trying to 
break the map. You can find it on the "post  office" emoji(at least in iOS).  
there is a reason it is in Unicode as "postal mark" 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_postal_mark

Recently they added a "European post office" with a little horn, I imagine it 
is a different business than DHL.  

I know it would be pretty easy use operator or another tag value to add 
different icon to the map, but beyond moving proper tagging /rendering from the 
data users to the OSM dataset, I'm using this to show that people differentiate 
the post office from other services and that should be reflected in the tagging 
from the start. Maybe the USPS and FedEx offer similar services in the US 
(besides some government forms), but there big differences between them in 
other countries, and that should be able to be represented. 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[tomoya muramoto]

To muzirian,

Would you clarify how to use "courier:brand=yes/office/subsidiary"?

muramoto

2017-04-15 8:19 GMT+09:00 muzirian :

> edit:  so I don't know if it will be approved even after that.
>
> Kelvin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

edit:  so I don't know if it will be approved even after that.

Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

edit:  so I don't know if it will approved even after that.

Kelvin

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:18 AM, muzirian  wrote:

> This page is mostly copied from the other one :P
> If you guys can help with definitions or suggest additions to be made, may
> be we could revote the other one (or just improve this). But still many
> vote against just because they think post office tag is enough for this, so
> do know if it will approved even after that.
>
> Regards,
> Kelvin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[muzirian]

This page is mostly copied from the other one :P
If you guys can help with definitions or suggest additions to be made, may
be we could revote the other one (or just improve this). But still many
vote against just because they think post office tag is enough for this, so
do know if it will approved even after that.

Regards,
Kelvin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2017, at 16:17, Mark Bradley  wrote:
> 
> Personally I am disappointed this proposal was rejected.  I read the section 
> of the wiki that talks about offices, and I think amenity fits a courier 
> business better.


I agree, personally, I voted no because there was no actual 
definition/description what should or not be tagged with amenity=courier, not 
because I thought amenity was not a good key for this.

cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)

[Mark Bradley]

> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:18:40 +0530
> From: muzirian <muzir...@gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"
> 
> The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another 
> suggestion
> office=courier.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier
> 
> Regards
> Kelvin


Personally I am disappointed this proposal was rejected.  I read the section of 
the wiki that talks about offices, and I think amenity fits a courier business 
better.  For a courier, the important stuff happens out in the field 
(delivering packages), not in the office, as in the other types of offices 
listed in the wiki.  The fact that a courier has an office is secondary to its 
principal purpose.  But if people will support office=courier, I will support 
it, as I definitely think a courier deserves its own tag value.

Mark



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[Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

The proposal for amenity=courier was rejected, so going on with another
suggestion office=courier.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Office%3Dcourier

Regards
Kelvin
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