Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
sorry, didn't see your email earlier. On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 09:27:03AM +0100, Andreas Goss wrote: The club page seems to suggest that club=sport + sport=cycling type tagging should be used for competitive sports. Which in my optinion is a bad idea, too. There is really no generel agreement as far as I know that club=sport is for competitive stuff only. I also don't think it's a good idea, because it would confuse a lot of people. I think subtagging makes a lot more sense. why should everything that is remotely related to sports go under club=sport+sport= ? According to the approved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club chess has an own club=chess, as has fishing, automobile, hiking - all of which can be either leisure type or sport type activities. Bicycle was apparently added later but it makes as much or little sense as the other cases. So this is not a new exception for diving. Tag:sport=scuba_diving as divespot has been in use for a long time already and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/scuba_diving2 has been approved. It just makes no sense to allow exceptions like this. If we allow this then everybody will find exceptions for other sports and you won't be able to combine them. Like even now how would you tag a sport shop that sells e.g. sailing and scuba diving gear? You can't tag it sport=sailing;scuba_diving ... so what now? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop list a whole range of values. So I don't see any technical problem for example with shop=computer;cheese;bicycle;scuba_diving;water_sports How would you tag this particular shop with your favorite tagging.. perhaps shop=computer;cheese;sport + sport=bicycle;scuba_diving;water_sports ? Imho this looks rather arbitrary, the computers sold there are probably related to the sports offered there but treated completely differently. That does not mean I am happy with current tagging of part-sport-part-leisure activities such as swimming and diving. It is broken to tag garden pools, kiddie beaches or dangerous oceans beaches with sport=swimming. There is no way to tag swimming routes and areas in water, hazardous areas etc. Most outdoor sports are in reality outdoor *activities* (whether leisure or sport) and rather bad match for tagging with key:sport. Clearly in need of a sane proposal. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
2014-11-24 13:57 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: According to the approved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club chess has an own club=chess, as has fishing, automobile, hiking - all of which can be either leisure type or sport type activities. I think club=automobile for a motorsport / racing club would not be very well chosen as this might really mean a lot of different things, some of them clearly neither leisure nor sport, e.g. the ADAC (biggest German automobile club, almost every 4th German is a member, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC ) does organize also some racing event, but is mostly seen as kind of insurance if your car breaks down (and as very strong political lobbyist advocating mainly individual motorized traffic). Documentation of the club tag is very scarse at the moment: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club and I am not sure how it can be improved, e.g. if I wanted to write something about club=automobile, would I have to write to all the mappers that have put these 127 club=automobile on the map, to ask what they have used the tag for? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 02:13:07PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-11-24 13:57 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: According to the approved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club chess has an own club=chess, as has fishing, automobile, hiking - all of which can be either leisure type or sport type activities. I think club=automobile for a motorsport / racing club would not be very well chosen as this might really mean a lot of different things, some of them clearly neither leisure nor sport, e.g. the ADAC (biggest German automobile club, almost every 4th German is a member, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC ) does organize also some racing event, but is mostly seen as kind of insurance if your car breaks down (and as very strong political lobbyist advocating mainly individual motorized traffic). Documentation of the club tag is very scarse at the moment: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club and I am not sure how it can be improved, e.g. if I wanted to write something about club=automobile, would I have to write to all the mappers that have put these 127 club=automobile on the map, to ask what they have used the tag for? I think much the same problem exists with other club=value as well like club=chess? Nevertheless.. you may walk by a building with a tag something like a chess-club and if it is mapped as club=chess it is correct. It is also fairly un-informative but we are supposed to map what we see and not do background checks of clubs with google or wikipedia? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
Let's look at the entity relations in play here. Surely a club IS an organisation, not a building. The club MAY USE one or more buildings, and MAY OWN one or more buildings. A club HAS a contact address, HAS members, HAS a board etc etc. So following the rules of one object, one set of tags, putting club=chess on a building could be considered to be wrong, as the building may be used by several clubs. Bearing in mind how some people hate multi-valued tags with semicolons, how about club:chess=meeting_place? Then multiple clubs could use the same building, each with a different role if required. Otherwise use a simple node (per club) within the building to indicate some relationship between the club and the building. Colin On 2014-11-24 14:36, Richard Z. wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 02:13:07PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-11-24 13:57 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: According to the approved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club [1] chess has an own club=chess, as has fishing, automobile, hiking - all of which can be either leisure type or sport type activities. I think club=automobile for a motorsport / racing club would not be very well chosen as this might really mean a lot of different things, some of them clearly neither leisure nor sport, e.g. the ADAC (biggest German automobile club, almost every 4th German is a member, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC [2] ) does organize also some racing event, but is mostly seen as kind of insurance if your car breaks down (and as very strong political lobbyist advocating mainly individual motorized traffic). Documentation of the club tag is very scarse at the moment: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club [3] and I am not sure how it can be improved, e.g. if I wanted to write something about club=automobile, would I have to write to all the mappers that have put these 127 club=automobile on the map, to ask what they have used the tag for? I think much the same problem exists with other club=value as well like club=chess? Nevertheless.. you may walk by a building with a tag something like a chess-club and if it is mapped as club=chess it is correct. It is also fairly un-informative but we are supposed to map what we see and not do background checks of clubs with google or wikipedia? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [4] Links: -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC [3] http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club [4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 02:53:32PM +0100, Colin Smale wrote: Let's look at the entity relations in play here. Surely a club IS an organisation, not a building. The club MAY USE one or more buildings, and MAY OWN one or more buildings. A club HAS a contact address, HAS members, HAS a board etc etc. So following the rules of one object, one set of tags, putting club=chess on a building could be considered to be wrong, as the building may be used by several clubs. Bearing in mind how some people hate multi-valued tags with semicolons, how about club:chess=meeting_place? Then multiple clubs could use the same building, each with a different role if required. Otherwise use a simple node (per club) within the building to indicate some relationship between the club and the building. ++1 Richard Colin On 2014-11-24 14:36, Richard Z. wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 02:13:07PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-11-24 13:57 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: According to the approved http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club [1] chess has an own club=chess, as has fishing, automobile, hiking - all of which can be either leisure type or sport type activities. I think club=automobile for a motorsport / racing club would not be very well chosen as this might really mean a lot of different things, some of them clearly neither leisure nor sport, e.g. the ADAC (biggest German automobile club, almost every 4th German is a member, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC [2] ) does organize also some racing event, but is mostly seen as kind of insurance if your car breaks down (and as very strong political lobbyist advocating mainly individual motorized traffic). Documentation of the club tag is very scarse at the moment: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club [3] and I am not sure how it can be improved, e.g. if I wanted to write something about club=automobile, would I have to write to all the mappers that have put these 127 club=automobile on the map, to ask what they have used the tag for? I think much the same problem exists with other club=value as well like club=chess? Nevertheless.. you may walk by a building with a tag something like a chess-club and if it is mapped as club=chess it is correct. It is also fairly un-informative but we are supposed to map what we see and not do background checks of clubs with google or wikipedia? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [4] Links: -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Club [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAC [3] http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:club [4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
The club page seems to suggest that club=sport + sport=cycling type tagging should be used for competitive sports. Which in my optinion is a bad idea, too. There is really no generel agreement as far as I know that club=sport is for competitive stuff only. I also don't think it's a good idea, because it would confuse a lot of people. I think subtagging makes a lot more sense. Tag:sport=scuba_diving as divespot has been in use for a long time already and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/scuba_diving2 has been approved. That's great and everything, but that's still nothing compared to sport= used 70x where everywhere all tags have additional tags for physical locations. It just makes no sense to allow exceptions like this. If we allow this then everybody will find exceptions for other sports and you won't be able to combine them. Like even now how would you tag a sport shop that sells e.g. sailing and scuba diving gear? You can't tag it sport=sailing;scuba_diving ... so what now? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 03:42:35PM +0200, Andreas Goss wrote: Can you please stop trying to come up with exceptions for the sport= tag? Just saw this on scuba diving: Should be used to mark a place for scuba diving, preferably as an attribute of natural=beach, natural=stone natural=cliff or a fitting segment of a coastline or lake. For dive bases or dive shops see: amenity=dive_centre or shop=scuba_diving How do you tag a store shop=sports now? How do you tag a club=sport now? See also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:sport%3Dscuba_diving#Divespot_:_sport.3D.2A_non-physical_tag seen your message on the talk page. The main page has apporved suggestions how to tag dive shops and centers. For dive clubs I don` been 't see why club=scuba_diving should not be sufficient. The club page seems to suggest that club=sport + sport=cycling type tagging should be used for competitive sports. Not seen a scuba diving competition club for a very long time. Perhaps this should be added to the summary of the scuba_diving page? Tag:sport=scuba_diving as divespot has been in use for a long time already and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/scuba_diving2 has been approved. So changing divespots to leisure=* is not a good idea at this point. I have added the scuba_diving:divespot=yes to the summary although it is not seen as obligatory in the proposal. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
I like this tagging, but as an ex-diver I do feel it needs some expansion. compressor=yes/no To indicate whether there is air available to refill tanks or not. recompression_chamber=yes/no To indicate if there is a recompression chamber on-site. Other possible facilities, are diving schools, interesting things placed under the water. My old haunt is here http://www.stoneycove.com/ Its an old quarry that was, or maybe still is, used to train divers for the North Sea during the week and is used by recreational divers at the weekend. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 01:46:45PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote: I like this tagging, but as an ex-diver I do feel it needs some expansion. compressor=yes/no To indicate whether there is air available to refill tanks or not. this would be mostly covered by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dscuba_diving and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddive_centre What other places would you attach scuba_diving:filling* to? recompression_chamber=yes/no To indicate if there is a recompression chamber on-site. nothing like hyperbaric chamber mapping on OSM yet? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Thu Oct 23 2014 14:03:57 GMT+0100 (BST), Richard Z. wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 01:46:45PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote: I like this tagging, but as an ex-diver I do feel it needs some expansion. compressor=yes/no To indicate whether there is air available to refill tanks or not. this would be mostly covered by http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dscuba_diving and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddive_centre What other places would you attach scuba_diving:filling* to? Would add it to dive shops, tourist accommodation which caters for divers may too. Phil(trigpoint ) recompression_chamber=yes/no To indicate if there is a recompression chamber on-site. nothing like hyperbaric chamber mapping on OSM yet? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
2014-10-21 2:04 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: +1 for leisure=scuba_diving_attraction or better yet, leisure=divespot and define the attraction or divespot further with subkeys I prefer leisure=divespot or dive_spot (?) or leisure=dive_site This could still be coupled with tourism=attraction for relevant cases to transport the attraction meaning. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
2014-10-18 15:42 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Can you please stop trying to come up with exceptions for the sport= tag? would you mind rephrasing this? I don't understand what you want to tell us, and I guess others feel similar, given that nobody has replied in the past 2 days... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
would you mind rephrasing this? I don't understand what you want to tell us, and I guess others feel similar, given that nobody has replied in the past 2 days... Using sport=scuba_diving for a dive spot. That would be like using sport=soccer for a soccer field without using leisure=pitch. And it's not the only case. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
2014-10-20 19:16 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: would you mind rephrasing this? I don't understand what you want to tell us, and I guess others feel similar, given that nobody has replied in the past 2 days... Using sport=scuba_diving for a dive spot. That would be like using sport=soccer for a soccer field without using leisure=pitch. And it's not the only case. sport=scuba_diving only makes sense with shop=sports (and maybe leisure=swimming_pool for specialized swimming pools to learn diving). I mean, all waters can be used for scuba diving. What people probably want to tag are waters that are interesting to scuba divers. Maybe we should make a tag like leisure=scuba_diving_attraction. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
Am 20.10.2014 20:37, schrieb Janko Mihelić: What people probably want to tag are waters that are interesting to scuba divers. Maybe we should make a tag like leisure=scuba_diving_attraction. . I beg to differ, there is a fairly wide range of restrictions at least on inland bodies of water in the world, including dedicated (allowed) entry points and so on. I suspect depending on the protection status the same goes for salt water too. The question is really if we should only map such entry points etc that are marked or if we go further than that. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: What people probably want to tag are waters that are interesting to scuba divers. Maybe we should make a tag like leisure=scuba_diving_attraction. I haven't followed this thread but Janko's comment reminded me that of dive sites that I'm aware of. We have numerous dive sites in Washington State, in the US. Edmonds Marine Park[1] is one of the most popular with about 25K divers visiting each year. It's not tagged in OSM but probably should be. Other park facilities are used by divers as one of their many recreational offerings, such as boating, fishing, etc. I like the leisure=scuba_diving_attraction, especially for sites that offer underwater attractions for divers. I'm not sure it fits well with sites that allow diving, but no particular attractions. For example, the US National Parks Service indicates on their maps sites that offer diving. In those cases it might scuba=yes Clifford 1. http://www.edmondswa.gov/services/education/discovery-programs/edmonds-underwater-park.html -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
Leisure=scuba_diving would be ok to me. Let the divers refine the particular attraction according to their practice. Le 20 octobre 2014 22:19:14 CEST, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us a écrit : On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: What people probably want to tag are waters that are interesting to scuba divers. Maybe we should make a tag like leisure=scuba_diving_attraction. I haven't followed this thread but Janko's comment reminded me that of dive sites that I'm aware of. We have numerous dive sites in Washington State, in the US. Edmonds Marine Park[1] is one of the most popular with about 25K divers visiting each year. It's not tagged in OSM but probably should be. Other park facilities are used by divers as one of their many recreational offerings, such as boating, fishing, etc. I like the leisure=scuba_diving_attraction, especially for sites that offer underwater attractions for divers. I'm not sure it fits well with sites that allow diving, but no particular attractions. For example, the US National Parks Service indicates on their maps sites that offer diving. In those cases it might scuba=yes Clifford 1. http://www.edmondswa.gov/services/education/discovery-programs/edmonds-underwater-park.html -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Yves From my phone___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
+1 for leisure=scuba_diving_attraction or better yet, leisure=divespot and define the attraction or divespot further with subkeys On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:18 AM, Yves yve...@gmail.com wrote: Leisure=scuba_diving would be ok to me. Let the divers refine the particular attraction according to their practice. Le 20 octobre 2014 22:19:14 CEST, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us a écrit : On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: What people probably want to tag are waters that are interesting to scuba divers. Maybe we should make a tag like leisure=scuba_diving_attraction. I haven't followed this thread but Janko's comment reminded me that of dive sites that I'm aware of. We have numerous dive sites in Washington State, in the US. Edmonds Marine Park[1] is one of the most popular with about 25K divers visiting each year. It's not tagged in OSM but probably should be. Other park facilities are used by divers as one of their many recreational offerings, such as boating, fishing, etc. I like the leisure=scuba_diving_attraction, especially for sites that offer underwater attractions for divers. I'm not sure it fits well with sites that allow diving, but no particular attractions. For example, the US National Parks Service indicates on their maps sites that offer diving. In those cases it might scuba=yes Clifford 1. http://www.edmondswa.gov/services/education/discovery-programs/edmonds-underwater-park.html -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch -- Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Yves From my phone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...
Can you please stop trying to come up with exceptions for the sport= tag? Just saw this on scuba diving: Should be used to mark a place for scuba diving, preferably as an attribute of natural=beach, natural=stone natural=cliff or a fitting segment of a coastline or lake. For dive bases or dive shops see: amenity=dive_centre or shop=scuba_diving How do you tag a store shop=sports now? How do you tag a club=sport now? See also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:sport%3Dscuba_diving#Divespot_:_sport.3D.2A_non-physical_tag There is a reason we combine all other tags with pitch or different leisure tags. If a sport= tag on it's own is supposed to be a sports site then you can't use it for anything else to indicated a relation to that sport. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
