Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/8 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: so that whether it's a shop, an amenity, a landuse a 'something' can appear in more than one list +1 lists of things in buildings a building=xy (typology) tag is not substituting a amenity/culture/etc. tag that describes a service or function. I think that it is important to keep this distinction. lists of things in towns don't understand this. Do you propose a new key town? lists of historic things historic is another key that is not very clear, as the only meaning it has is referring to something in the past (could be from prehistoric times to last year). But mostly if the feature is not there any more (or if the feature is referring to an event in the past). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Lunes 08 Noviembre 2010 08:20:06 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer escribió: 2010/11/8 Noel David Torres Taño env...@rolamasao.org: I think we can simply say that culture=museum is for every building or intitution that names itself as, and let it have other key, subordinated, like museum=art, museum=history, museum=technology, museum=anthropology, museum=natural_history, museum=science. Thse cover almost all possible museum uses, While this is probably true it would still be useful to subtag with finer grained tags. The military museum you mentioned should be identificable directly (but not necessary as a main museum-genre-subtag. Also art can of course be extended to different types like print-room, paintings, sculpture, new media (mostly audio/video), ... As this is concerning subtagging for museums I don't think we should include the discussion about the details here but do it in a museum-dedicated thread (proposal). Agree I was only showing that we can have a tag culture=museum that we can discuss later, and proposing a definition for it: culture=museum is every building or intitution that names itself as. Art galleries are not museums, they are shops. If an institution SELLS art works, it has to expose them in order for potential buyers to see, so it is shop=something. If it does NOT SELL, it is culture=museum (even if it sells reproductions, booklets, guides, postals and the such, which in turn can be a subsection on the main bulding like shop=kiosk or the like). So, MOMA (New York) or Museo del Prado (Madrid) are culture=museum, and David Zwirner Gallery (New York) or CFA (Berlin) are not (shop=something). Noel er Envite ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 09:33:39 +0100 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: lists of things in towns don't understand this. Do you propose a new key town? absolutely not but a useful list of what someone might find in a town public buildings toilets parks bbq playground residential areas schools shops traffic lights ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 08:24, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: Well, what is your definition of museum? I don't have to follow slavishly wikipedia but I took this as a first indication. This reminds me of turning to the dictionary for a definition of democracy when debating political philosophy. There have been thousands of years of debate and disagreement over the arts - what constitutes art, what gives it meaning, what makes somebody an artist, what we mean by the art world, and so on. That is why I don't think we should turn to Wikipedia for guidance, even for a first indication. We might consult the Dewey system to see how it categorised things, though recognising we have a more powerful tool in our hands. We shouldn't expect something so resistant to definition to easily fit into a short dictionary definition or worst of all a Wikipedia decision. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 08:35, Noel David Torres Taño env...@rolamasao.orgwrote: Art galleries are not museums, they are shops. If an institution SELLS art works, it has to expose them in order for potential buyers to see, so it is shop=something. If it does NOT SELL, it is culture=museum (even if it sells reproductions, booklets, guides, postals and the such, which in turn can be a subsection on the main bulding like shop=kiosk or the like). So, MOMA (New York) or Museo del Prado (Madrid) are culture=museum, and David Zwirner Gallery (New York) or CFA (Berlin) are not (shop=something). This illustrates very well why a culture=art_gallery value is needed. A great many artists would be grossly offended by your suggestion that the galleries they exhibit their work in are simply shops for the purchase of art! I can accept that MOMA in New York, the National Gallery in London, the Reina Sofia in Madrid and the Louvre in Paris might be considered museums with permanent exhibitions of art. I agree that places whose primary purpose is to sell prints, paintings by local artists and framing services should be marked as shop=art. But there are many tens of thousands of art galleries that fit neither definition. They exhibit contemporary art in temporary exhibitions, much of which may be for sale but they are also for the exhibition of works of art. Selling the art is NOT their primary purpose. To add to Noel's list, they include famous galleries such as the Saatchi Gallery (http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk) and White Cube ( http://www.whitecube.com/) and galleries known only really by those in the art world like the Rebecca Hossack Gallery (http://www.r-h-g.co.uk/) and local to me the Hannah Barry Gallery (http://hannahbarry.com/). These are not museums in any sense of the word. They are also emphatically not shops. It is on behalf of these galleries, who comprise the majority of the art world, that I am arguing for the value culture=art_gallery. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/8 Noel David Torres Taño env...@rolamasao.org: culture=museum is every building or intitution that names itself as. Art galleries are not museums, they are shops. If an institution SELLS art works, it has to expose them in order for potential buyers to see, so it is shop=something. yes, we already have a shop value for art galleries that generally sell the exposed works, but Tom was saying that we should distinguish between museums that expose art but don't call themself an art gallery and others that don't sell either but do only exhibitions and call themself an art gallery. If it does NOT SELL, it is culture=museum (even if it sells reproductions, booklets, guides, postals and the such, which in turn can be a subsection on the main bulding like shop=kiosk or the like). sometimes (say on rare occasions) also museums sell some of their works to another museum, we shouldn't exclude this totally, but focus on generally or something similar. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 10:25, Noel David Torres Taño env...@rolamasao.orgwrote: On Lunes 08 Noviembre 2010 10:09:03 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer escribió: yes, we already have a shop value for art galleries that generally sell the exposed works, but Tom was saying that we should distinguish between museums that expose art but don't call themself an art gallery and others that don't sell either but do only exhibitions and call themself an art gallery. So the difference here is between permanent exhibition (+ temporary ones) and only temporary exhibitions? You could have: culture=museum and museum=art (or similar) for museums that mainly have permanent exhibitions of art (I don't know anywhere that only has permanent exhibitions, as you note) culture=art_gallery for art galleries that mainly have temporary exhibitions (many do have some small permanent collections) shop=art for shops that simply sell art works with no exhibitions I would guess that in the UK there might be a tendency to use culture=art_gallery where other nationalities might expect to see culture=museum. So the wiki will need some clear cross-referencing. I myself will have a hard time deciding whether some places in London are museums or art galleries! Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Lunes 08 Noviembre 2010 10:33:32 Tom Chance escribió: On 8 November 2010 10:25, Noel David Torres Taño env...@rolamasao.orgwrote: On Lunes 08 Noviembre 2010 10:09:03 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer escribió: yes, we already have a shop value for art galleries that generally sell the exposed works, but Tom was saying that we should distinguish between museums that expose art but don't call themself an art gallery and others that don't sell either but do only exhibitions and call themself an art gallery. So the difference here is between permanent exhibition (+ temporary ones) and only temporary exhibitions? You could have: culture=museum and museum=art (or similar) for museums that mainly have permanent exhibitions of art (I don't know anywhere that only has permanent exhibitions, as you note) culture=art_gallery for art galleries that mainly have temporary exhibitions (many do have some small permanent collections) shop=art for shops that simply sell art works with no exhibitions I know places where art works are in exhibition with the purpose of selling. All works are exhibited from date 1 to date 2, and as well as works are being sold, they are marked with a red dot in the wall by their side, where numbers are. So they are shops, but have temporary exhibitions. I would guess that in the UK there might be a tendency to use culture=art_gallery where other nationalities might expect to see culture=museum. So the wiki will need some clear cross-referencing. I myself will have a hard time deciding whether some places in London are museums or art galleries! Cross-referencing yes, but a hard rule too: Option a) name If it is named Museum tag as museum, otherwise tag as art_gallery. Option b) permanent exhibition If it has a permanent exhibition (along with any possible temporary exhibitions) tag as museum, otherwise tag as art_gallery. These options mostly run together, at least in Spain, and not only for art places: I can not remember a single place named museum without permanent exhibitions, from small houses devoted to a famous habitant (Casa Museo de Colón - Columbus Museum House or Casa Museo Tomás Morales - Poet Tomás Morales Museum House, both in Las Palmas) to the big ones we all have in mind, through non-art big museums like Museo de La Ciencia y El Cosmos (Science and Cosmos Museum in La Laguna). Regards Noel er Envite ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/8 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: I can accept that MOMA in New York, the National Gallery in London, the Reina Sofia in Madrid and the Louvre in Paris might be considered museums with permanent exhibitions of art. fine, then we agree, I didn't have this impression so far. I agree that places whose primary purpose is to sell prints, paintings by local artists and framing services should be marked as shop=art. Thin ice IMHO. You are saying that original art by local artists is on the same level then framing services and prints ? I don't agree (or only on an individual basis which makes it hard to give a good undisputed and unambiguous definition. But there are many tens of thousands of art galleries that fit neither definition. They exhibit contemporary art in temporary exhibitions, much of which may be for sale but they are also for the exhibition of works of art. Selling the art is NOT their primary purpose. OK, it might be true (or not) that selling is not their primary purpose (this is a philosophic discussion and AFAIK they are all businesses), and we might discuss this for ages without a conclusion. I can accept that there is a thing between a museum and an art shop, which we might call gallery and which sells all/most of the exposed works, but has x times more visitors not interested and/or capable of buying who come for personal interest in the art and see it as an exposition rather then a shop), but this distinction is not done by the name the location gives itself (there are museums that call themselfs gallery but will be culture=museum in OSM). We would be moving on thin ice anyway, see above. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 10:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: I agree that places whose primary purpose is to sell prints, paintings by local artists and framing services should be marked as shop=art. Thin ice IMHO. You are saying that original art by local artists is on the same level then framing services and prints ? I don't agree (or only on an individual basis which makes it hard to give a good undisputed and unambiguous definition. We are on thin ice in every distinction in the culture category, frankly. As I wrote earlier, thousands of years of debate and linguistic ambiguity can't be condensed into a completely clear tagging schema. Let me try to restate the distinction. The use of the word primary is all important, because of course on can buy art works at all three, and all three in some sense exhibit art works. shop=art: a shop whose owners' primary purpose is to sell individual art works (and often prints, postcards, framing services) culture=art_gallery: a place where the primary purpose is the temporary exhibition of art works for artistic appreciation culture=museum, museum=art (or similar): a place where the primary purpose is to hold permanent exhibitions of art works for artistic appreciation and study I'm willing to concede on culture=museum only because it helps us arrive at a consensus. On a more general note, relying too heavily on the name of a place would be very bad practice. In the UK at least there are very few places that fit your definiton of an art museum with museum in the name. There are also some shops I know of with gallery in the name, but that shouldn't be considered art galleries. On an even more general note, this thread demonstrates why a handful of people on a mailing list is such a bad why to come up with a good tagging schema! :) Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/8 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: On 8 November 2010 10:53, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: We are on thin ice in every distinction in the culture category, frankly. As I wrote earlier, thousands of years of debate and linguistic ambiguity can't be condensed into a completely clear tagging schema. agreed Let me try to restate the distinction. The use of the word primary is all important, because of course on can buy art works at all three, and all three in some sense exhibit art works. +1 shop=art: a shop whose owners' primary purpose is to sell individual art works (and often prints, postcards, framing services) +1 culture=art_gallery: a place where the primary purpose is the temporary exhibition of art works for artistic appreciation _and_ who nevertheless sell art? saatchi for instance I'm not sure if the do it principally for artistic appreciation. culture=museum, museum=art (or similar): a place where the primary purpose is to hold permanent exhibitions of art works for artistic appreciation and study I don't agree on permanent. Many museums have changing exhibitions. But the also have a collection. Maybe this could be the key: do the expose the art which they own or lend from other museums, or do the expose on commission (until someone buys it, it remains property of the artist- gallery). I would consider tate britain or tate modern museums and not galleries for instance. On a more general note, relying too heavily on the name of a place would be very bad practice. In the UK at least there are very few places that fit your definiton of an art museum with museum in the name. There are also some shops I know of with gallery in the name, but that shouldn't be considered art galleries. +1 cheers, Martin PS: I invited the italian and german mailing list subscribers to join this discussion to hopefully augment the participation. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 11:41, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: 2010/11/8 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: culture=art_gallery: a place where the primary purpose is the temporary exhibition of art works for artistic appreciation _and_ who nevertheless sell art? saatchi for instance I'm not sure if the do it principally for artistic appreciation. I think it would be rather cynical to suggest even their gallery is primarily for flogging a product, rather than exhibiting art for appreciation ;-) We also shouldn't document that all art galleries must always sell the art they exhibit - sometimes exhibited art works aren't for sale. culture=museum, museum=art (or similar): a place where the primary purpose is to hold permanent exhibitions of art works for artistic appreciation and study I don't agree on permanent. Many museums have changing exhibitions. But the also have a collection. Maybe this could be the key: do the expose the art which they own or lend from other museums, or do the expose on commission (until someone buys it, it remains property of the artist- gallery). I would consider tate britain or tate modern museums and not galleries for instance. That distinction works for me. Museums of art, including the Tate galleries, aim to preserve and exhibit works for public appreciation and study that they own or have on loan from other museums. Art galleries aim to exhibit art works without that role of preservation and ownership. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 8 November 2010 13:14, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: a gallery doesn't have to be a building by it self, it doesn't have to be focused on selling (a false distinction in my book), it can be 2 or 3 walls in a library For the moment Martin's proposal doesn't offer anything for those cases. As with all features, it's important to remember that we are concerned with the primary purpose or use for a feature. Just because museums have cafes, shops, toilets, libraries, etc. doesn't necessarily mean we should add all of those sub-features. i don't really have any tagging suggestions to offer right this minute, but i do think geek instincts are leading this discussion in the direction of looking for bright shiny lines in the sand between different things, whereas from experience i can tell you it's a fuzzy continuum. As somebody with experience curating and organising art exhibitions, music festivals and similar, I agree! Unfortunately we are in the game of developing tagging schemas rather than elegant essays! We must do our best to approximate some lines that make sense across linguistic boundaries. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/8 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: On 8 November 2010 13:14, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: a gallery doesn't have to be a building by it self, it doesn't have to be focused on selling (a false distinction in my book), it can be 2 or 3 walls in a library For the moment Martin's proposal doesn't offer anything for those cases. I disagree: as culture is orthogonal to amenity (or food / drink) you could combine culture=art_gallery with all of the mentioned (besides arts_centre, which might already be comprising a gallery aspect). And of course it doesn't have to be a building, noone ever suggested this in this discussion AFAIR. As with all features, it's important to remember that we are concerned with the primary purpose or use for a feature. Just because museums have cafes, shops, toilets, libraries, etc. doesn't necessarily mean we should add all of those sub-features. don't know how you do this in your area, but I think it is general practise in the area where I have been to do it: why not map a public toilet or a cafe inside a museum? Simply draw a polygon to locate it (and hope there is no need for a 3D-modell to understand what it's about). different things, whereas from experience i can tell you it's a fuzzy continuum. As somebody with experience curating and organising art exhibitions, music festivals and similar, I agree! Of course I plainly agree as well --- as long as we want to add more information than amenity=fuzzy_continuum this doesn't really help us though. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
Hi, Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would helpfull. although there needs to be a clear difference from 'tourism' key. perhaps 'tourism' is reserved for things that are designed primarly for the benifit of visitors to the area, were 'culture' is more for locals 'cultural activities/things/places. I'll have a better answer in a few weeks. cheers, sam On 11/7/10, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to invite you to take part in the discussion for a new key culture. The first draft is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/culture the discussion should mainly take place on the mailing list IMHO, because I consider it more suitable for discussions. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans IRC: irc://irc.oftc.net #osm-ca Canadian OSM channel (an open chat room) @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net wrote: On 7 November 2010 13:04, Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com wrote: Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would helpfull. On this particular suggestion, I think community centers are definitely amenities. All the culture=* tags describe amenities. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
Am 07.11.2010 14:04, schrieb Sam Vekemans: Hi, Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would helpfull. although there needs to be a clear difference from 'tourism' key. perhaps 'tourism' is reserved for things that are designed primarly for the benifit of visitors to the area, were 'culture' is more for locals 'cultural activities/things/places. I came to the conclusion, that deciding if e.g. a museum better fits in tourism or leisure is pointless - as it is both and the decision will largely depend on your personal bias and the museum in question. I'll have a better answer in a few weeks. You may have a look at recent versions of JOSM. I have spend quite some time thinking about how to put these into the preset menu so that it makes sense. The solution that made most sense to me (and doesn't take care too much about the existing tags) is: - tourism - culture - leisure Limit tourism to signposts, information bureaus and alike. Deciding between culture and leisure is a lot easier then ... Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
Thanks, I'll have a look at the latest version of josm, and see your menu tree structure, before commenting further :) poke me if i dont :) cheers, sam On 11/7/10, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 07.11.2010 14:04, schrieb Sam Vekemans: Hi, Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would helpfull. although there needs to be a clear difference from 'tourism' key. perhaps 'tourism' is reserved for things that are designed primarly for the benifit of visitors to the area, were 'culture' is more for locals 'cultural activities/things/places. I came to the conclusion, that deciding if e.g. a museum better fits in tourism or leisure is pointless - as it is both and the decision will largely depend on your personal bias and the museum in question. I'll have a better answer in a few weeks. You may have a look at recent versions of JOSM. I have spend quite some time thinking about how to put these into the preset menu so that it makes sense. The solution that made most sense to me (and doesn't take care too much about the existing tags) is: - tourism - culture - leisure Limit tourism to signposts, information bureaus and alike. Deciding between culture and leisure is a lot easier then ... Regards, ULFL ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans IRC: irc://irc.oftc.net #osm-ca Canadian OSM channel (an open chat room) @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/7 Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com: Hi, Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would helpfull. although there needs to be a clear difference from 'tourism' key. I think the current definition of tourism is not too bad: Places and things of specific interest to tourists: places to see, places to stay, things and places providing support. I'd adjust the definition to reality: Places and things provided mainly or exclusively for tourists and visitors. Places to stay have never been part of tourism in OSM, things of specific interest might be OK, but might be of specific interests to locals as well. places to see is also not the point of a definition IMHO. It is OK for tourism=attraction (which itself might merit a subtag to get a finer graduation of hierarchy, say 3 levels) to flag otherwise already described elements. E.g. a fountain, a church, an opera, a museum, a lake, a waterfall, a statue, a square, ... But besides an interesting for tourists-flag I don't see a point in putting any of these in tourism. perhaps 'tourism' is reserved for things that are designed primarly for the benifit of visitors to the area, were 'culture' is more for locals 'cultural activities/things/places. I don't think culture has to be reduced according to an expected or supposed audience. It would not really help IMHO. I'm fine with your tourism-definition. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/7 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: In general I like this proposal, but given that this changes a substantial number of very well used tags that go back to almost the beginning of the project it is essential to describe how existing data will be migrated across, tools updated, mappers notified, etc. some IMHO we could simply start using it. Tools will get amended automatically, as soon as a substancial number of items is tagged with it. If there is a general agreement we could also use a bot to add the tag to existing items. As soon as all (or most) major applications have added the tag we could mark deprecated the old tags in the wiki and discourage usage. This has been done for e.g. highway=gate The other job, similar to the shop key, will be to elaborate a longer list of values and to clearly disambiguate between them. For example, how does one draw the line between art_gallery / museum Yes, I committed a mistake here, was in a hurry, it better should be museum:genre=art_gallery actually. This is the way it is done in theatre and it works well. , between nightclub / music_venue, are they relevant here? between historical monuments/memorials and art_works, etc. there doesn't have to be any distinction: if it is a memorial, tag it historic=memorial, if it qualifies at the same time for artwork, tag it with culture=artwork as well. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
Am 7. November 2010 14:21 schrieb Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: Hi Martin, In my opinion it would be a good step to unite the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Tagging_guidelines I don't understand this. How is it related to this proposal? The linked page looks at first glance like an attempt to document different best practise -modells. I rather prefer to try to get _one_ documentation instead of several. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/7 Anthony o...@inbox.org: All the culture=* tags describe amenities. It is true that they are at least partly a subgroup of amenity, which is by general judgement quite overcrowded at the moment. A subgroup that incorporates objects that share a certain aspect and can therefore be moved to this key (as amenity doesn't really tell you something more then POI currently). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/7 Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com: I came to the conclusion, that deciding if e.g. a museum better fits in tourism or leisure is pointless - as it is both and the decision will largely depend on your personal bias and the museum in question. yes, and both is not suitable to give a good description, as leisure and tourism both mean almost nothing: leisure is everything you do when you are not payed, tourists do all kind of stuff according to their personal inclination. It could also be tourism=beach which most Germans would maybe find OK, while if you live somewhere with a beach you would say that the beach is yours (as well). You may have a look at recent versions of JOSM. I have spend quite some time thinking about how to put these into the preset menu so that it makes sense. The solution that made most sense to me (and doesn't take care too much about the existing tags) is: - tourism - culture - leisure this sounds reasonable. I wanted for a long time to have culture, but my last attempts couldn't find support some time ago... Limit tourism to signposts, information bureaus and alike. +1. Not sure for tourism=viewpoint. Is OK IMHO, but could also become a key (viewpoint=yes/some more explicit value) Deciding between culture and leisure is a lot easier then ... IMHO leisure is not a very good key either and the definition is too inclusive (is a Key for all the places where people go for recreation/leisure.), because some people go to the library, others to the beach, others in the mountains, some like to read, some go cycling, some go mapping, ... I'd say the key (definition) is weak because you can put almost everything into it by this definition. But in reality it almost works, there is few stuff that doesn't belong to a similar group of items: Currently leisure lists the following main tags: dog_park sports_centre golf_course stadium track pitch water_park marina slipway (is clearly a technical facility for boats and has nothing to do with leisure IMHO). fishing nature_reserve park playground garden common ice_rink miniature_golf dance swimming_pool So I don't want to touch leisure at the moment, though I see it less general then all you can do or need in your spare time and more focussed on sports and official leisure activities like fishing and going to the park. I would not object on putting garden and park in landuse though. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On 7 November 2010 17:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: 2010/11/7 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: In general I like this proposal, but given that this changes a substantial number of very well used tags that go back to almost the beginning of the project it is essential to describe how existing data will be migrated across, tools updated, mappers notified, etc. some IMHO we could simply start using it. Tools will get amended automatically, as soon as a substancial number of items is tagged with it. As somebody who makes substantial use of the data, I would really prefer to see a proactive effort to update existing nodes/ways. OSM data becomes quite useless when you get tagging this mixed. Since this wouldn't be a destructive edit - you just, for example, add culture=museum to a feature already tagged with tourism=museum - I don't have a problem with a bot or efforts to mass-update certain cities. I'd certainly do the whole of London in the absence of a bot. The other job, similar to the shop key, will be to elaborate a longer list of values and to clearly disambiguate between them. For example, how does one draw the line between art_gallery / museum Yes, I committed a mistake here, was in a hurry, it better should be museum:genre=art_gallery actually. This is the way it is done in theatre and it works well. We have to find some resolution to this! I completely disagree and think it may be a linguistic difference - nobody in the British art world would find your solution appropriate :-) , between nightclub / music_venue, are they relevant here? Well one is an accepted amenity but is arguably better placed in culture (nightclub), the other is another long-dormant proposal that is also a cultural venue. So yes, they're relevant. between historical monuments/memorials and art_works, etc. there doesn't have to be any distinction: if it is a memorial, tag it historic=memorial, if it qualifies at the same time for artwork, tag it with culture=artwork as well. That is true, we will also need to describe for the avoidance of doubt when it is appropriate to mark a memorial as an art work and vice versa. Regards, Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
2010/11/7 Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net: On 7 November 2010 17:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO we could simply start using it. Tools will get amended automatically, as soon as a substancial number of items is tagged with it. As somebody who makes substantial use of the data, I would really prefer to see a proactive effort to update existing nodes/ways. fine, then do it. I support this. of values and to clearly disambiguate between them. For example, how does one draw the line between art_gallery / museum Yes, I committed a mistake here, was in a hurry, it better should be museum:genre=art_gallery actually. This is the way it is done in theatre and it works well. We have to find some resolution to this! I completely disagree and think it may be a linguistic difference - nobody in the British art world would find your solution appropriate :-) don't know. It seems that the british art world is not very active on wikipedia then, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery redirects to art_museum ;-) The museum article gives this definition that fits well with my own one: A museum is a building or institution that houses and cares for a collection of artifacts and other objects of scientific, artistic, or historical importance and makes them available for public viewing through exhibits that may be permanent or temporary. As you can see, artistic is included. , between nightclub / music_venue, are they relevant here? Well one is an accepted amenity but is arguably better placed in culture (nightclub), the other is another long-dormant proposal that is also a cultural venue. So yes, they're relevant. well, not sure for nightclub if it is well placed in culture. We could discuss about this, I'm not completely against but next you will propose pubs to be entered as culture? Well, actually could be fine as well. What do the others think? That is true, we will also need to describe for the avoidance of doubt when it is appropriate to mark a memorial as an art work and vice versa. no, we will not have to IMHO, and we cannot. This has to be done on a case-by-case judgement and there might always be room to see it either way. I don't see this as a problem actually. The more details you add the better a data consumer would be able to filter it out or in. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
someone tried to change the meaning of culture=arts_centre by amending the text to a meaning different of the one of amenity=arts_centre and added also a new tag culture=community_arts_centre (without specifying what this should be, but I guess it is our good old arts_centre). Please do not do this in this proposal for a new culture key! Changing the meaning of well established tags should go to another proposal. This proposal is mainly about introducing a new key, and not about redefining of already in use values. I removed culture=community_arts_centre as I don't see the point in it. We already have community centre and arts centre. If you want to introduce new values, please elaborate on a definition and probably make a different proposal for this change. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:43:28 -0500 Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: It is true that they are at least partly a subgroup of amenity, which is by general judgement quite overcrowded at the moment. Overcrowded? Less than 0.1% of possible values are taken. How about containing too many to search effectively? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 19:18:33 + Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net wrote: don't know. It seems that the british art world is not very active on wikipedia then, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery redirects to art_museum ;-) Ah, Wikipedia, that well known internationally agreed source of definitions for words ;-) I forgot that we need to slavishly follow anything we spot in Wikipedia or that other well-worn blind alley one's online dictionary of choice. One can edit Wikipedia if it doesn't suit - I've seen that used to solve an argument on osm already. As I wrote on the wiki, we have separate amenity values for bar, pub and nightclub instead of amenity=drinking_establishment; we have shop values for butcher, baker and grocer instead of a generic shop=food followed by a sub-tag to define the type of food. There is no rule that says, because art galleries are often considered a sort of museum, we must relegate art gallery to a sub-type of culture=museum. I don't have a problem with permanent art exhibitions being labelled as a type of museum. Indeed many museums concentrate on cultural artifacts. I'm thinking of one in Athens full of cultural artifacts from the height of the Athenian city state. We call it a museum, but it is an art gallery devoted to a particular time period, so the logic of the two terms overlaps considerably. an art gallery in English does not clearly distinguish between the shop where art is sold and the permanent exhibition. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Domingo 07 Noviembre 2010 13:04:31 Sam Vekemans escribió: Hi, Adding 'culture=community_center' and culture=community_centre' would Independeltly of if they are culture or not, should only one of these two be used. We do not need two tags for exactly the same thing, do we? Noel er Envite signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
I think we can simply say that culture=museum is for every building or intitution that names itself as, and let it have other key, subordinated, like museum=art, museum=history, museum=technology, museum=anthropology, museum=natural_history, museum=science. Thse cover almost all possible museum uses, since the Honey House Museum we have at Tenerife will be museum=anthropology, since it describes how thing were done by our ancestors and are done today, and the (not yet build) Carnival Museum will be museum=art and museum=history at the same time, since it will show art pieces (the Carnival Queen dresses) and some historic pieces from the ongoing of those acts. Similarly, most military museums would be =history (mostly with =technology and or =anthropology) and can be additionally tagged with military=yes (as they probably actually are). Noel er Envite ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] I started a draft on a new main key culture
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 16:13:52 -0500 Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Is is really obvious to everyone but me which of (archaeological_site, art_gallery, artwork, bar, bookstore, cafe, cinema, dance, garden, library, memorial, monument, museum, park, pub, sports_centre, stadium, theatre, theme_park, and zoo) are supposed to be culture and which are supposed to be some other key? no, it's not apparent. but the amenity space is still overcrowded and difficult to search perhaps a job for the wiki-fiddlers institute recategorise on the wiki only so that whether it's a shop, an amenity, a landuse a 'something' can appear in more than one list lists of things in buildings lists of things in towns lists of historic things ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
