Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Dave Swarthout]

Haha, you should see how Google Translate mangles Thai to English or
vice-versa!

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 25.09.2015 um 12:02 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > There is little trouble caused by an automatic translation these days.
>
>
> automatic translations can sometimes work surprisingly well, but often
> they are completely insufficient. It may depend on the languages involved
> but often between English, German and Italian it doesn't make any sense
> what google translate suggests.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:52:31 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> I believe the primary page should always be English and the other
> languages for the same page should be translations. Actually I
> thought this was already decided.

I am pretty sure that English is already treated as a primary page.

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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 25/09/2015 5:12 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:52:31 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:


I believe the primary page should always be English and the other
languages for the same page should be translations. Actually I
thought this was already decided.

I am pretty sure that English is already treated as a primary page.




There was far more detail on the Russian page than on the English page,

leading me to believe that the Russians are leading .. at least on this tag.

Personally I see no reason why English has to be the primary page.


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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-09-25 11:00 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> There was far more detail on the Russian page than on the English page,
>
> leading me to believe that the Russians are leading .. at least on this
> tag.
>
> Personally I see no reason why English has to be the primary page.
>


because English seems to be the language most of us can understand. If tags
get developed in a different language, people will not be able to
participate in the discussion and if the details of tags are not available
in English, many people will not be aware of these details and will not be
able to use a tag according to its definition. This can be nonetheless an
option if a tag is only relevant in a certain geographical region, but for
globally significant tags it is clearly not desirable.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[johnw]

> On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> Here in Thailand there are many nationalities beside English speakers that 
> make use of these offices, among them are large numbers of  Burmese, 
> Cambodians, Germans, and Japanese.


here in Japan it would be mostly non-english speakers as well (Brazillians, 
Chinese, Koreans, and then English speakers) - but English is the common 
language we all have studied, so all the signs (like most throughout Japan) are 
printed in Japanese and English. I’m pretty sure the common language between 
all those people you listed (besides Thai) would be English as well. 

Support for mulit-language rendering in general is severely lacking.  Most 
signage in Japan is shown in Japanese and English (every single tollway sign, 
road sign and train station - hundreds of thousands of signs), so the default 
-carto render should render both as well, but doesn't.  In this case, -carto 
renders the map with less detail than real life. A JA version of the map can be 
JA only, but for scripts that can’t be parsed by english speakers (like most 
asian scripts), -carto should render their EN tag below the name=* label - as 
that would properly reflect “the ground truth” 

This lack of being able to properly reflect the ground truth led to the JA(EN) 
tag issue in Japan, as Foreign resident mappers who use English attempted to 
show this duality in the real life signs in the name tag field [ name=Japanese 
(English) ], but ultimately is is not good data policy for the name=* tag, so 
it is banned.  But  nothing is done to render both languages (currently), 
creating a crappy situation for the default -carto there. 

Which is why, for a building almost exclusively used by foreigners, in a place 
where the native script is hard to read, I suggest the name field be something 
parsable to those foreigners, whatever common language that is. 

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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 24/09/2015 2:25 PM, Warin wrote:

On 24/09/2015 12:56 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I too have wanted to raise the level of consciousness about these 
offices. There are many in Thailand but their tagging is not uniform 
and that makes them difficult to find.


amenity=immigration_office might be a better choice IMO but either 
would help the current situation.


office=immigration ?

There is already office=government ... but no sub tags! and the 
document for office=administrative suggest that office=government is 
for state government things. This is an American view.. the British do 
not do this - they have a 'central government' 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_Kingdom.



Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base .. 
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is 
used for.


I have 'synced' the wiki page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment with the 
Russian source page.
It now reflects the use of the sub tag government= as documented on the 
Russian page.


I have also added some words to the wiki page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dadministrative  to 
better reflect its relation to office=government.


Any errors are mine. Thoughts?
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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 24.09.2015 08:18, Warin wrote:
> I have 'synced' the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment with the Russian
> source page.
> It now reflects the use of the sub tag government= as documented on the
> Russian page.

Why does the yellow box say that the English version is a an out-of-sync
translation of itself?

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 25/09/2015 6:33 AM, Blake Girardot wrote:




Thank you for all the help with this topic everyone.


On 9/24/2015 6:25 AM, Warin wrote:


Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base ..
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is
used for.



I like where these two suggestions are going. What are the next steps?

This is an important topic at the moment in Europe and people are 
mapping border and immigration related items in several countries.




Firstly
As it is the Russians who are 'driving' this ... I think they should be 
consulted (on the Russian talk group).

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ru

I am subscribing .. and will be raising an issue I have with government 
vs administration subject office=government vs. office=administration.
I raise the issue there as that is I think where it originates, so 
directly engaging rather than through another group is better IMO.
Looks like the list subscription is not automatic .. so I will wait for 
manual approval.



Secondly.
Create a proposal for the key 'government' ... and let people comment on 
it.


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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 25.09.2015 um 00:21 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Personally I think the wiki pages should say which language page is the 
> 'primary' page.
> That would help those who want to check or comment on the page.


I believe the primary page should always be English and the other languages for 
the same page should be translations. Actually I thought this was already 
decided.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Blake Girardot]

Thank you for all the help with this topic everyone.


On 9/24/2015 6:25 AM, Warin wrote:


Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base ..
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is
used for.



I like where these two suggestions are going. What are the next steps?

This is an important topic at the moment in Europe and people are 
mapping border and immigration related items in several countries.


Cheers
blake


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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 25/09/2015 12:09 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:

On 24.09.2015 08:18, Warin wrote:

I have 'synced' the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment with the Russian
source page.
It now reflects the use of the sub tag government= as documented on the
Russian page.

Why does the yellow box say that the English version is a an out-of-sync
translation of itself?



Because it is a dumb template.

Personally I think the wiki pages should say which language page is the 
'primary' page.

That would help those who want to check or comment on the page.

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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 24/09/2015 12:56 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I too have wanted to raise the level of consciousness about these 
offices. There are many in Thailand but their tagging is not uniform 
and that makes them difficult to find.


amenity=immigration_office might be a better choice IMO but either 
would help the current situation.


office=immigration ?

There is already office=government ... but no sub tags! and the document 
for office=administrative suggest that office=government is for state 
government things. This is an American view.. the British do not do this 
- they have a 'central government' 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_Kingdom.



Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base .. 
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is 
used for.


As for the name tag, I think it best to defer to the standard OSM 
practice which is to provide the name in the local language and use 
the name:en tag for the translated variety. Here in Thailand there are 
many nationalities beside English speakers that make use of these 
offices, among them are large numbers of  Burmese, Cambodians, 
Germans, and Japanese.


+1


Cheers,
Dave

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 7:38 AM, johnw > wrote:


I’ve been wanting to make a amenity=immigration because usually
foreign residents (and only foreign residents) go to such
facilities - so local mappers are usually unaware of their
existence or importance.



-1 for amenity.



These are places where people apply for new visas, extensions to
existing visas, and change from one visa type to another. Usually
regional ones cover mostly visa extensions for residents, whereas
a main office would cover the gamut from people looking for asylum
to people applying for new visas to be come residents in some
manner for work or marriage.

Finding the regional offices in your host country can be very
difficult if there is a language barrier - sometimes they are in a
giant government complex, sometimes they are a standalone facility
- but they should be very clearly marked. My old office was hidden
on the 3rd floor of a non-descript building next to a clothing
shop. Almost no signage helped you find it, until you were in the
lobby of the building.

These facilities are *not* border control nor passport
applications offices - as they deal only with the foreign people
living in their area. They might be in the same complex, but often
times they are not, and warrant their own tag.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/36.32304/139.00155

This the building I have to visit in Japan for my residence visa
now. It is a small building run by the Justice Ministry, as the
program was recently transferred from customs to Justice (AFAIK).

They also have a small prisoner transfer center there, which gets
a rendered icon. This is the only office within 2 hours of travel
- so many thousands of foreigners have to come to this one office
every year or so from all over the region.

As an aside, I think we should suggest the name=* field to be the
defacto “foreign" language for the country, which would be English
for most of Asia (they standardize on english as a common
“foreign" language), which would be very helpful for the
foreigners having to visit there - as (in my case) no Japanese
citizen ever needs to visit nor care about the office (unless
married to a foreigner) - and the asian language scripts are often
unreadable to new foreign residents who are looking for the office
to visit.

The native language and others can of course be tagged as well,
but I think the facility should have it’s "foreign" language name
rendered first and foremost.

Javbw




On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:10 AM, Blake Girardot > wrote:

Hi all,

I am looking through taginfo and the wiki, but I don't see a good
clear tag for immigrant/asylum/refugee "reception" centers.

These are usually government type facilities that process
immigrants and refugees.

Some are also holding facilities, and some are just government
offices.

They are separate and distinct from standard passport control or
border check points.

Any suggestions?


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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Dave Swarthout]

I too have wanted to raise the level of consciousness about these offices.
There are many in Thailand but their tagging is not uniform and that makes
them difficult to find.

amenity=immigration_office might be a better choice IMO but either would
help the current situation.  As for the name tag, I think it best to defer
to the standard OSM practice which is to provide the name in the local
language and use the name:en tag for the translated variety. Here in
Thailand there are many nationalities beside English speakers that make use
of these offices, among them are large numbers of  Burmese, Cambodians,
Germans, and Japanese.

Cheers,
Dave

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 7:38 AM, johnw  wrote:

> I’ve been wanting to make a amenity=immigration because usually foreign
> residents (and only foreign residents) go to such facilities - so local
> mappers are usually unaware of their existence or importance.
>
> These are places where people apply for new visas, extensions to existing
> visas, and change from one visa type to another. Usually regional ones
> cover mostly visa extensions for residents, whereas a main office would
> cover the gamut from people looking for asylum to people applying for new
> visas to be come residents in some manner for work or marriage.
>
> Finding the regional offices in your host country can be very difficult if
> there is a language barrier - sometimes they are in a giant government
> complex, sometimes they are a standalone facility - but they should be very
> clearly marked. My old office was hidden on the 3rd floor of a non-descript
> building next to a clothing shop. Almost no signage helped you find it,
> until you were in the lobby of the building.
>
> These facilities are *not* border control nor passport applications
> offices - as they deal only with the foreign people living in their area.
> They might be in the same complex, but often times they are not, and
> warrant their own tag.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/36.32304/139.00155
>
> This the building I have to visit in Japan for my residence visa now. It
> is a small building run by the Justice Ministry, as the program was
> recently transferred from customs to Justice (AFAIK).
>
> They also have a small prisoner transfer center there, which gets a
> rendered icon. This is the only office within 2 hours of travel - so many
> thousands of foreigners have to come to this one office every year or so
> from all over the region.
>
> As an aside, I think we should suggest the name=* field to be the defacto
> “foreign" language for the country, which would be English for most of Asia
> (they standardize on english as a common “foreign" language), which would
> be very helpful for the foreigners having to visit there - as (in my case)
> no Japanese citizen ever needs to visit nor care about the office (unless
> married to a foreigner) - and the asian language scripts are often
> unreadable to new foreign residents who are looking for the office to visit.
>
> The native language and others can of course be tagged as well, but I
> think the facility should have it’s "foreign" language name rendered first
> and foremost.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:10 AM, Blake Girardot  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am looking through taginfo and the wiki, but I don't see a good clear
> tag for immigrant/asylum/refugee "reception" centers.
>
> These are usually government type facilities that process immigrants and
> refugees.
>
> Some are also holding facilities, and some are just government offices.
>
> They are separate and distinct from standard passport control or border
> check points.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
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>
>
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[johnw]

I’ve been wanting to make a amenity=immigration because usually foreign 
residents (and only foreign residents) go to such facilities - so local mappers 
are usually unaware of their existence or importance. 

These are places where people apply for new visas, extensions to existing 
visas, and change from one visa type to another. Usually regional ones cover 
mostly visa extensions for residents, whereas a main office would cover the 
gamut from people looking for asylum to people applying for new visas to be 
come residents in some manner for work or marriage.

Finding the regional offices in your host country can be very difficult if 
there is a language barrier - sometimes they are in a giant government complex, 
sometimes they are a standalone facility - but they should be very clearly 
marked. My old office was hidden on the 3rd floor of a non-descript building 
next to a clothing shop. Almost no signage helped you find it, until you were 
in the lobby of the building.

These facilities are *not* border control nor passport applications offices - 
as they deal only with the foreign people living in their area. They might be 
in the same complex, but often times they are not, and warrant their own tag. 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/36.32304/139.00155 


This the building I have to visit in Japan for my residence visa now. It is a 
small building run by the Justice Ministry, as the program was recently 
transferred from customs to Justice (AFAIK). 

They also have a small prisoner transfer center there, which gets a rendered 
icon. This is the only office within 2 hours of travel - so many thousands of 
foreigners have to come to this one office every year or so from all over the 
region.

As an aside, I think we should suggest the name=* field to be the defacto 
“foreign" language for the country, which would be English for most of Asia 
(they standardize on english as a common “foreign" language), which would be 
very helpful for the foreigners having to visit there - as (in my case) no 
Japanese citizen ever needs to visit nor care about the office (unless married 
to a foreigner) - and the asian language scripts are often unreadable to new 
foreign residents who are looking for the office to visit.

The native language and others can of course be tagged as well, but I think the 
facility should have it’s "foreign" language name rendered first and foremost.

Javbw



> On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:10 AM, Blake Girardot  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I am looking through taginfo and the wiki, but I don't see a good clear tag 
> for immigrant/asylum/refugee "reception" centers.
> 
> These are usually government type facilities that process immigrants and 
> refugees.
> 
> Some are also holding facilities, and some are just government offices.
> 
> They are separate and distinct from standard passport control or border check 
> points.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> 
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