[Talk-transit] Line diagrams
Hello everybody, to encourage mapping public transport, Tiziano and I have developed a line diagram generator that displays nice diagrams from (sufficiently properly mapped) bus routes. A showroom example is http://78.46.81.38/misc/showroom.svg generated by the URL http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch- line?network=APS%20Mobilit%C3%A0ref=22style=paduamax-cors- below=12correspondences=100 (takes about a minute) The tool is documented at http://78.46.81.38/public_transport.html Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
[Talk-transit] RFC on interchanging data
Hello everybody, What is the consensus on how to map interchange data? I would like connect two (or more) bus stops and/or railway stations to indicate that you can preferably change vehicles there (e.g. the bus stop(s) that is/are intended to change into a nearby train station). This is often indicated by sharing the same name, but not always. I haven't found anything useful about this neither on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_Transport and its connected pages nor on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema and I want to know which data model (or models) I hard-code into my software and use for the data I map. I think that membership within a relation public_transport=stop_area fits best for this purpose but I'm not sure whether I can interpret all existing stop areas in this way. Thus, I would be grateful for any comments. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] RFC on tram stops
Hello Roland, My first reply would be: public_transport=stop_position/platform tram=yes If you want to keep backward compatibility definitely go for railway=tram_stop because trams are considered part of the railway network. I've never heard about nor seen any actually tagged as highway=tram_stop. I only know highway=bus_stop. Claudius Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:14:22 +0100 Von: Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de An: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics talk-transit@openstreetmap.org Betreff: [Talk-transit] RFC on tram stops Hello everybody, What is the consensus on how to map tram stops? I've found highway=tram_stop as well as railway_tram_stop. The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trams says nothing about that. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Line diagrams
Wow, well done! 2010/2/24 Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de Hello everybody, to encourage mapping public transport, Tiziano and I have developed a line diagram generator that displays nice diagrams from (sufficiently properly mapped) bus routes. A showroom example is http://78.46.81.38/misc/showroom.svg generated by the URL http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch- line?network=APS%20Mobilit%C3%A0ref=22style=paduamax-cors- below=12correspondences=100http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch-%0Aline?network=APS%20Mobilit%C3%A0ref=22style=paduamax-cors-%0Abelow=12correspondences=100 (takes about a minute) The tool is documented at http://78.46.81.38/public_transport.html Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] RFC on interchanging data
On 24 Feb 2010, at 17:24, Claudius Henrichs wrote: Hello Roland, you hit the nail on the head: public_transport:stop_area relations are the way to go. At least I keep mapping stations/stops with interchange possibilities like that. Please do not forget about stop_area_group as well as these relations are used to denote interchanging possibilites between nearby stop_areas :) Here is a proposed scheme for interchanges that a few of us developed from Oxomoa's page with the main difference being that it is in the public wiki space so that other people can work on it (Oxoma's scheme remains in his private space where etiquette says ut should not be edited by others) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Stop_Area Should we put this one to a vote and work up something that we can agree on that is on the proper wiki? Regards, Peter Claudius Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:09:52 +0100 Von: Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de An: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics talk-transit@openstreetmap.org Betreff: [Talk-transit] RFC on interchanging data Hello everybody, What is the consensus on how to map interchange data? I would like connect two (or more) bus stops and/or railway stations to indicate that you can preferably change vehicles there (e.g. the bus stop(s) that is/are intended to change into a nearby train station). This is often indicated by sharing the same name, but not always. I haven't found anything useful about this neither on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_Transport and its connected pages nor on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/ Public_transport_schema and I want to know which data model (or models) I hard-code into my software and use for the data I map. I think that membership within a relation public_transport=stop_area fits best for this purpose but I'm not sure whether I can interpret all existing stop areas in this way. Thus, I would be grateful for any comments. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Public Transport Plugin
Hi all, Slightly off-topic post for this list, but Ive been looking at using something like this plugin to map bus routes and similar in my area, as I have an unlocked PNA which is perfectly suited for the purpose. Unfortunately (afaik) there has never existed a JVM/JRE for pocket devices such as pretty much any GPS on the market today. In order to use these packages to plot bus routes, is my only option to carry a laptop around, or do these plugins and tools exist for PNAs? David On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 17:32 +0100, Roland Olbricht wrote: Hello everybody, the Public Transport Plugin for JOSM has been updated and has now a comprehensive documentation at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/public_transport Any comment welcome. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [talk-ph] Announcing: OSM-PH Marikina Mapping Party
Hi, I updated the Marikina Mapping Event Page for the proposed cake slices, let me know if the chunks are manageable especially for newbies. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Mapping_Party/Marikina My estimate is the data collection would take around maximum of two hours. I suggest we allot more time for editing and socials :) On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:02 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: hi, Here's my short blurb announcing our first mapping party for this year. Please forward to any mailinglist/group whom you think will be interested. A list of yahoogroups I posted the announcement is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Mapping_Party/Marikina#Event_Announcement If there is a good number of newbies, we might need to have several GPS units for loan. Anyone willing to loan their own units just send me a message or add your name and GPS in the marikina page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Mapping_Party/Marikina === OSM-PH Marikina Mapping Party We will have our Openstreetmap Philippines Marikina City Mapping Party on March 20, 2010. Invite your friends. We will teach you how to map using GPS, paper, on foot, car or bike. Let's make Marikina City the best mapped city in OSM. It's fun. It's free. You can help. Please watch this page for more details: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Mapping_Party/Marikina If anyone is willing to join, help in the preps or sponsor the event just PM me: emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com cheers, maning === -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] City in well city names
Hi everybody I put back the City in some city names in cebu : Mandaue City, Lapu-Lapu City and Danao City They were removed some time ago, and while it makes sense (unlike Cebu City, there is no Mandaue island or province...), the road signs indicate Mandaue City and Lapu-Lapu City. The address of the company I work also shows Lapu-Lapu City. These websites also mention the City in the name : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Cebu http://www.mandauecity.gov.ph/ http://www.cebu.gov.ph/ and even : http://openstreetmap.org.ph/viewall.php !!! I was not able to find anything regarding this in the wiki. Probably because European names/road signs usually don't include city (as far as I know) What is your opinion ? Should we ignore the City in most of the names or add it to all? Should we add City as stated on the road signs only? Is there an official name list ? (I never heard of Manila City :) How about Carcar, Naga, Toledo, Bogo and Talisay ? Happy mapping. Totor ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] Announcing: OSM-PH Marikina Mapping Party
Suggestion for announcing the event to get maximum exposure. Go to facebook and become 'Fans' of Philippine tech and mapping related fan pages, I mean relative groups, not something like a cooking page and post a wall post there with the link to the event. Remember its not spam if its related to the fan page :) ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] City in well city names
Yes interesting topic. In my research on this for the OSM page, I found that its subjective to include the City in the name, usually it makes sense to include it for places where there is a province or municipality of the same name. technically speaking the official name is 'Lungsod ng Manila etc' which should translate to City of So yes including City in the Name is the right way to do it, but its not necessary in regular real life applications. Any other opinions? ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] City in well city names
Hi Totor, We are having the same problem in Wikipedia. The current naming convention there is to add the City but there's a proposal to drop the City in most of them. Except for those cities that share names with other prominent places (Iloilo, Cebu, Davao, Cotabato, Isabela, Quezon, Sorsogon etc.), people usually refer to these places by just the name without the City. In OSM, we have the convention to remove Barangay in barangay names and similarly, City in most city names. The reason why you'll see signs that add the word City is because achieving city status is a badge of honor. The city governments would like to proclaim that they are a city (which implies a more developed places) every chance they get! So I wouldn't put too much weight on those signs and government websites. ;-) My two centavos, Eugene (osm:seav) On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Totor totor_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi everybody I put back the City in some city names in cebu : Mandaue City, Lapu-Lapu City and Danao City They were removed some time ago, and while it makes sense (unlike Cebu City, there is no Mandaue island or province...), the road signs indicate Mandaue City and Lapu-Lapu City. The address of the company I work also shows Lapu-Lapu City. These websites also mention the City in the name : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Cebu http://www.mandauecity.gov.ph/ http://www.cebu.gov.ph/ and even : http://openstreetmap.org.ph/viewall.php !!! I was not able to find anything regarding this in the wiki. Probably because European names/road signs usually don't include city (as far as I know) What is your opinion ? Should we ignore the City in most of the names or add it to all? Should we add City as stated on the road signs only? Is there an official name list ? (I never heard of Manila City :) How about Carcar, Naga, Toledo, Bogo and Talisay ? Happy mapping. Totor -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] City in well city names
We should follow the Philippine Standard Geographic Codes (PSGC) which is available at http://www.nscb.gov.ph/ACTIVESTATS/PSGC/default.asp The official city names are listed there in the quick table. So the official name will either be City of or City as indicated in the table there. For example, Taguig City is the official name, not City of Taguig. On the other hand, City of Makati is the official name, not Makati City. It will be the same for Barangays as well as for other geographic units. On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Totor, We are having the same problem in Wikipedia. The current naming convention there is to add the City but there's a proposal to drop the City in most of them. Except for those cities that share names with other prominent places (Iloilo, Cebu, Davao, Cotabato, Isabela, Quezon, Sorsogon etc.), people usually refer to these places by just the name without the City. In OSM, we have the convention to remove Barangay in barangay names and similarly, City in most city names. The reason why you'll see signs that add the word City is because achieving city status is a badge of honor. The city governments would like to proclaim that they are a city (which implies a more developed places) every chance they get! So I wouldn't put too much weight on those signs and government websites. ;-) My two centavos, Eugene (osm:seav) On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Totor totor_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi everybody I put back the City in some city names in cebu : Mandaue City, Lapu-Lapu City and Danao City They were removed some time ago, and while it makes sense (unlike Cebu City, there is no Mandaue island or province...), the road signs indicate Mandaue City and Lapu-Lapu City. The address of the company I work also shows Lapu-Lapu City. These websites also mention the City in the name : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Cebu http://www.mandauecity.gov.ph/ http://www.cebu.gov.ph/ and even : http://openstreetmap.org.ph/viewall.php !!! I was not able to find anything regarding this in the wiki. Probably because European names/road signs usually don't include city (as far as I know) What is your opinion ? Should we ignore the City in most of the names or add it to all? Should we add City as stated on the road signs only? Is there an official name list ? (I never heard of Manila City :) How about Carcar, Naga, Toledo, Bogo and Talisay ? Happy mapping. Totor -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- Eric Manuel Pareja (eric.par...@gmail.com) LPIC-2, NCLP | PGP/GPG Key 0xB82E42D9 Coordinator for Technology - National Telehealth Center University of the Philippines Manila Senior Linux Trainer - International Open Source Network - ASEAN+3 Ang mundo ay aklat, at iisang pahina lamang ang nababasa ng hindi naglalakbay. - San Agustin わかよたれぞ つねならむ ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] City in well city names
Hi Eric, There's actually a tag for the official name: official_name=* For the name=* tag itself, it should be what casual people expect to see on maps. So it could be something like: name=Makati City official_name=City of Makati name:tl=Lungsod ng Makati official_name:tl=Lungsod ng Makati or name=Makati official_name=City of Makati name:tl=Makati official_name:tl=Lungsod ng Makati On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:19 PM, eric pareja eric.par...@gmail.com wrote: We should follow the Philippine Standard Geographic Codes (PSGC) which is available at http://www.nscb.gov.ph/ACTIVESTATS/PSGC/default.asp The official city names are listed there in the quick table. So the official name will either be City of or City as indicated in the table there. For example, Taguig City is the official name, not City of Taguig. On the other hand, City of Makati is the official name, not Makati City. It will be the same for Barangays as well as for other geographic units. On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Totor, We are having the same problem in Wikipedia. The current naming convention there is to add the City but there's a proposal to drop the City in most of them. Except for those cities that share names with other prominent places (Iloilo, Cebu, Davao, Cotabato, Isabela, Quezon, Sorsogon etc.), people usually refer to these places by just the name without the City. In OSM, we have the convention to remove Barangay in barangay names and similarly, City in most city names. The reason why you'll see signs that add the word City is because achieving city status is a badge of honor. The city governments would like to proclaim that they are a city (which implies a more developed places) every chance they get! So I wouldn't put too much weight on those signs and government websites. ;-) My two centavos, Eugene (osm:seav) On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Totor totor_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi everybody I put back the City in some city names in cebu : Mandaue City, Lapu-Lapu City and Danao City They were removed some time ago, and while it makes sense (unlike Cebu City, there is no Mandaue island or province...), the road signs indicate Mandaue City and Lapu-Lapu City. The address of the company I work also shows Lapu-Lapu City. These websites also mention the City in the name : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Cebu http://www.mandauecity.gov.ph/ http://www.cebu.gov.ph/ and even : http://openstreetmap.org.ph/viewall.php !!! I was not able to find anything regarding this in the wiki. Probably because European names/road signs usually don't include city (as far as I know) What is your opinion ? Should we ignore the City in most of the names or add it to all? Should we add City as stated on the road signs only? Is there an official name list ? (I never heard of Manila City :) How about Carcar, Naga, Toledo, Bogo and Talisay ? Happy mapping. Totor -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- Eric Manuel Pareja (eric.par...@gmail.com) LPIC-2, NCLP | PGP/GPG Key 0xB82E42D9 Coordinator for Technology - National Telehealth Center University of the Philippines Manila Senior Linux Trainer - International Open Source Network - ASEAN+3 Ang mundo ay aklat, at iisang pahina lamang ang nababasa ng hindi naglalakbay. - San Agustin わかよたれぞ つねならむ -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] Bacolod
http://osm.org/go/4n8s7ZJ but no trace: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mgarrucho/traces -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Import of Korea from Yahoo
Andrew Errington, CC'd, hosts talk-ko and may also be able to help. Thank you, he quickly replied, but could not help yet. I created a entry for open discussion: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue#Strange_imports So i wont create to much traffic about that on the Mailinglist. Kind regards, -- Jonas Stein n...@jonasstein.de ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Semantic GIS site based on dbpedia, freebase, openstreetmaps, etc.
Looks like an app we could use as well, where is the source code? thanks, mike On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:30 PM, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: sounds very exciting! will check it out! On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Paul Houle p...@ontology2.com wrote: Hello, We just launched a new site at http://ny-pictures.com/nyc/photo/ which is based on data from dbpedia and freebase and uses openstreetmaps for mapping. Behind it all is a 'semantic GIS' engine that combines the ability to represent traditional GIS with the ability to make assertions such as The Empire State Building is in Manhattan. A particularly remarkable feature is that very few of the images are geotagged: we're able to establish the locations of the photographs based on text and other available evidence. Any thoughts? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
2010/2/23 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2010/2/24 Tomáš Tichý t.ti...@post.cz: I have tried BTC mapper and it is almost unusable (doesn´t work without GPS signal, can´t place POI to another place than my location, weird and uneditable presets). It's being worked on at present, the current preset system didn't work out as well as we first thought they might. Any plan to make it compatible with the HTC TATTOO? I've tried to download it from the android market, but with no success. -- -S ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
On 24 February 2010 18:48, Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com wrote: Any plan to make it compatible with the HTC TATTOO? I've tried to download it from the android market, but with no success. Is this due a problem with smaller screen sizes? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 09:58, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Any plan to make it compatible with the HTC TATTOO? I've tried to download it from the android market, but with no success. Is this due a problem with smaller screen sizes? I bet so. But actually there is no way to tell (no errors, just a notice that the package was not found in the android market). -- -S ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Thanks for your thoughtful comments... And I hope you've taken some of them on board. You don't seem to make any realistic suggestions for moving forward and just, instead, suggest potlatch is fine as is the front page. That doesn't seem to be in touch with the reality of every newbie who encounters the project, does it? That's not what I said, and it's not what I believe either. Please don't misrepresent me. You should know both from the time you employed me to work on these issues, and discussions we've had since, that your accusation here is false. But it's a nice sidestep of the issue I was discussing. Sure, you don't like the way I communicate sometimes Hmm. It sounds to me like you don't think you've done anything wrong? I notice you don't write Sure, I'm grossly offensive without due cause sometimes, but instead infer that the issue isn't the way you behave, instead it's that other people dislike your behaviour. but do you have any ideas at all on improving things other than the status quo and pissing on someone for doing anything? Yes I do. You should know, since I've discussed them with you before. But since you disagree with them, it's probably easier for you to accuse me of suggesting that everything is fine, and then portray me as a malcontent holding the project back. Alternatively: * Steve goes and reads Art of Community * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work * Steve re-reads http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Developer_community , which he originally wrote * We all work constructively on motivating our developers and nurturing new ones. * We acknowledge that the developers actually know what they are talking about. On the user experience: * Work continues on Potlatch2 * We make available the rails_port in a DVCS (e.g. git), to encourage experimentation * We implement the ideas on branches and see what works: ** this redesign, ** the previous redesign from CloudMade ** OSB integration, ** the minor UI improvements list ** Integrating Walking Papers into the main site ** Integration of routing ** More layers on the map ** and other suggestions * Add a javascript click-tracker to see what people actually press * Focus redesigns on making things easier to understand, rather than removing options * Run multiple hack weekends, with the aims of encouraging new rails_port contributors, and existing developers to work on these topics If you want to spend money on achieving the above, then sponsoring existing developers to do the work, or sponsor someone to aid new developers (through documentation and engagement etc) would be my recommendation. Or hire a venue for hack weekends, buy pizza, fund travel and so on. These are all things that have worked great before. If you want to spend time on the above, then engaging with the existing developers and finding out what they want help with would be my recommendation. and everyone of 'our' generation is intensely negative. Not surprising, given that it appears that the more work you've done for the project, the more likely it is to be attacked for their efforts. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: * Freeze PL1 (TomH enforces no more updated on the server) and work on PL2 Wow. You'd really try to prevent any improvements that have been coded from being deployed? That's a bad idea. Sure, encourage people to work on P2 instead of P1 by all means, but not by getting OSMF sysadmins to prevent the mapping community from using any improved version of P1. As I said but Andy largely ignored, paying people is probably the worst option from a community point of view but at least it might move us forward. Given that the community is the most important thing, by far, then I'd expect you to have dismissed this idea already. One step forward doesn't warrant 40 steps back. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
On 24 February 2010 19:13, Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 09:58, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Any plan to make it compatible with the HTC TATTOO? I've tried to download it from the android market, but with no success. Is this due a problem with smaller screen sizes? I bet so. But actually there is no way to tell (no errors, just a notice that the package was not found in the android market). I'll take this off list... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
I tried Navit on Android yesterday, at least on my phone (HTC Magic) it was unusable, the map didnt update properly or follow my movements, and crashed a few times. I also could not find out how to actually set a route On 23/02/2010 22:42, John Smith wrote: For routing/using, there is navit which is OS and you can download current navit data files from few places. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk attachment: p_weber.vcf___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Andy Allan wrote: ... But I haven't seen any reference to www.openstreetmap.de, where it's strengths are, or what could be improved or learned from. The most interesting bit of www.openstreetmap.de to me is this - Fehler in der Karte? Selbst korrigieren (Anleitung) oder hier melden. - right underneath the map in the middle of the screen. Essentially Is there an error in the map? You can fix it yourself* (instructions**) or click here*** * link to Potlatch edit at current zoom level ** link to simple step-by-step instructions http://www.openstreetmap.de/123/index.html / http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=enie=UTF-8sl=detl=enu=http://www.openstreetmap.de/123/index.htmlprev=_ttwu=1 *** link to Openstreetbugs at current zoom level. Cheers, Another Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira was flooded http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100222/tsc-breakneck-development-blamed-for-mad-b1f5339.html We should get the charter. It seems that unplanned development is something that we can track with OSM. That is the leading cause of fatalities from disasters. mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How inaccurate was the mapnik distance/scale marker?
Hi Thanks for your replies Egil Hjelmeland wrote: I assume you are referring to the OpenLayers based slippy map at openstreetmap.org? The Openlayers 2.8 ScaleLine class has the the problem that it does not handle that the map-scale is not constant accoss the map. The slippy map uses mercators projection, where the scale increases with 1/cos(lattiude). So the scaleline is correct at equator, but a over factor 2 off where I am at 62 north. Excuse my ignorance, are you saying that it's 2x inaccurate at all zoom levels? But it is trivial to make a mercator-specific variant of ScaleLine. I have made one here: http://www.egil-hjelmeland.no/kart/mercatorScaleLine.js. Anyone are free to use it. View it in action at my playground: http://www.egil-hjelmeland.no/kart/ . So one of the mapnik guys could implement it quite easily then? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
SteveC wrote: [snip] Right up front we have the school of thought that everything is perfect the way it is. That uservoice is some kind of inherently crappy system (see the uservoice ideas page at http://osm.uservoice.com/ ). That we shouldn't allow people to use tools which make fixing the map easier (see @chilly on twitter), that people are inherently stupid and there should be a barrier to entry to editing in OSM because it's complicated. This school of thought is essentially still living in 1991 and I'll call this school the Game Haters: everything is wrong, even talking about it is wrong. [snip] The first time I tried to use UserVoice, it hung. When I tried later in the day I got an HTML error. I call that crappy for a live system. I have NOT said that we shouldn't allow people to use tools which make fixing the map easier. The quote was: Pushing people (newbies) to use KeepRight is a recipe for havoc. You need experience to use KeepRight so you know what to ignore. You clearly agreed with me Steve, you even created a video to try to give people help in using it. Your video still assumes that people are experienced users, but hey, you tried. If you had researched a little before your latest explosion, you would have realised that I'm not against feedback (just against crappy bolt-ons). The suggestion to improve your mock-up, once I'd managed to get it into UserVoice, is currently top of the list. You believe that feedback is a good thing, but, it seems, only if the feedback confirms your own ideas. You have railed against the UI, against hard-working volunteer contributors and against anyone who disagrees with you, who's left? I do think that there are many things to improve in OSM, but upsetting people is not going to achieve any of them. One thing you might like to try to rebuild is your personal Interface with the Community, which looks broken to me, probably crushed under your ego. One more thing, the stuff you write on blogs and published email will remain permanently on the Internet, so before you make disparaging remarks or write untruths about people on a public forum consider the impact you might have on reputations. Chris (twitter:@chillly) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] fwd: Two thirds of mobile users want driving ANDwalking navigation
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:29:10 + Graham Jones grahamjones...@googlemail.com wrote: You are both right. RF absorption is a combination of amount of material and its properties. I think the issue with trains is limited to newer ones with special windows (I think they are conductive - some cars have them too). The combination of shielding from the roof and windows makes it practically impossible to get a fix. I was surprised that I managed to get a fix in a jet aircraft a few months ago - I would have expected this to be a good shield too. [...] You were probably sitting in a window seat, right? Getting a fix from a window seat is usually not a problem, but I was not able to get a fix elsewhere. I have tracks from several flights in India. As long as the windows are glass, or transparent to radio-frequency waves, the GPS signal will diffract in, as the wavelength is much larger than the size of the window. However, there are probably issues like reflections within the cabin, how many satellites are visible from the window, etc. Regards, Gora ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How inaccurate was the mapnik distance/scale marker?
Dave F. wrote: Excuse my ignorance, are you saying that it's 2x inaccurate at all zoom levels? At lattitude 60: yes. So one of the mapnik guys could implement it quite easily then? I don't think it is related to mapnik. It is the javascript code served by the web-site that wraps up the map rendered by mapnik, osmarender or what so ever. It is part of the javascript code running in your browser which handles panning, zooming and selection of map-layer. If you are thinking of the map on openstreetmap.org, that would have be done by the maintainers of that site. Cheers Dave F. Egil H ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:27 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Thanks for your thoughtful comments... And I hope you've taken some of them on board. You don't seem to make any realistic suggestions for moving forward and just, instead, suggest potlatch is fine as is the front page. That doesn't seem to be in touch with the reality of every newbie who encounters the project, does it? That's not what I said, and it's not what I believe either. Please don't misrepresent me. You should know both from the time you employed me to work on these issues, and discussions we've had since, that your accusation here is false. But it's a nice sidestep of the issue I was discussing. Sure, you don't like the way I communicate sometimes Hmm. It sounds to me like you don't think you've done anything wrong? I notice you don't write Sure, I'm grossly offensive without due cause sometimes, but instead infer that the issue isn't the way you behave, instead it's that other people dislike your behaviour. Andy all I'm doing is repeating what I get from newbies all the time, and adding another sentence that you ignore because below you just want to evolve things, and I think it needs a step change. Sentence 1: the UI/UX is crap I think we all know it is Then the Sentence I add is: Let's fix it. but do you have any ideas at all on improving things other than the status quo and pissing on someone for doing anything? Yes I do. You should know, since I've discussed them with you before. But since you disagree with them, it's probably easier for you to accuse me of suggesting that everything is fine, and then portray me as a malcontent holding the project back. Alternatively: * Steve goes and reads Art of Community Andy, building community and moving things on is not just be nice to everyone all the time. Sometimes it's also about being honest and saying, this is wrong, we can fix it. * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work You're not seriously suggesting the PL user experience is non-crap and the codebase is non-crap right? Because I think that's all I said. * Steve re-reads http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Developer_community , which he originally wrote * We all work constructively on motivating our developers and nurturing new ones. Have you tried getting a flash developer to work on PL? It's very, very hard. * We acknowledge that the developers actually know what they are talking about. On the user experience: * Work continues on Potlatch2 * We make available the rails_port in a DVCS (e.g. git), to encourage experimentation * We implement the ideas on branches and see what works: ** this redesign, ** the previous redesign from CloudMade ** OSB integration, ** the minor UI improvements list ** Integrating Walking Papers into the main site ** Integration of routing ** More layers on the map ** and other suggestions * Add a javascript click-tracker to see what people actually press * Focus redesigns on making things easier to understand, rather than removing options * Run multiple hack weekends, with the aims of encouraging new rails_port contributors, and existing developers to work on these topics All of those are slightly evolutionary, will take forever, and won't improve things a whole lot. I think it's much more useful to step change things. Some of them, of course, are super good things like git and continuing PL2.. but 'adding more layers' doesn't do anything for a new user. A better UX, less is more, and a very clear up front help page and a clear feedback tab will help hugely. That's a step change we can just get done very easily. If you want to spend money on achieving the above, then sponsoring I tried and tried with Richard. I tried hiring him, sponsoring him, sponsoring him to learn AS3 and all kinds of other things. existing developers to do the work, or sponsor someone to aid new developers (through documentation and engagement etc) would be my recommendation. Or hire a venue for hack weekends, buy pizza, fund travel and so on. These are all things that have worked great before. If you want to spend time on the above, then engaging with the existing developers and finding out what they want help with would be my recommendation. Andy, the point is the existing developers are holding things up and aren't listening to the thousands of newbies who throw themselves at the site every day, then give up. You can pour cold water over my $70 design all you want, but the fact is it's the only major step in ages and you might not like it, but just go and read from all the newbies who *do*. The point is you're not the intended audience, and the intended audience is coming up with all kinds of cool stuff on uservoice while you're saying here let's take 12 months and fix a few bugs when they want something entirely
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:37 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: * Freeze PL1 (TomH enforces no more updated on the server) and work on PL2 Wow. You'd really try to prevent any improvements that have been coded from being deployed? That's a bad idea. Sure, encourage people to work on P2 instead of P1 by all means, but not by getting OSMF sysadmins to prevent the mapping community from using any improved version of P1. But that's *exactly* what is holding back PL2! Constant tweaking to PL1, as you know because you said it yourself! Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Chris On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:16 AM, Chris Hill wrote: SteveC wrote: [snip] Right up front we have the school of thought that everything is perfect the way it is. That uservoice is some kind of inherently crappy system (see the uservoice ideas page at http://osm.uservoice.com/ ). That we shouldn't allow people to use tools which make fixing the map easier (see @chilly on twitter), that people are inherently stupid and there should be a barrier to entry to editing in OSM because it's complicated. This school of thought is essentially still living in 1991 and I'll call this school the Game Haters: everything is wrong, even talking about it is wrong. [snip] The first time I tried to use UserVoice, it hung. When I tried later in the day I got an HTML error. I call that crappy for a live system. I have NOT said that we shouldn't allow people to use tools which make fixing the map easier. The quote was: Pushing people (newbies) to use KeepRight is a recipe for havoc. You need experience to use KeepRight so you know what to ignore. You clearly agreed with me Steve, you even created a video to try to give people help in using it. Your video still assumes that people are experienced users, but hey, you tried. I think your comments on user voice and twitter are and were intensely negative, and you were calling for newbies not to be able to edit. I don't really think I actually misrepresented you there did I, as you say it all again here? If you had researched a little before your latest explosion, you would have realised that I'm not against feedback (just against crappy bolt-ons). The suggestion to improve your mock-up, once I'd managed to get it into UserVoice, is currently top of the list. Look, if you can see that uservoice is a 'crappy bolt on' then you can see our UI and editor are 'crappy cobbled together bolt ons' right? You believe that feedback is a good thing, but, it seems, only if the feedback confirms your own ideas. You have railed against the UI, against hard-working volunteer contributors and against anyone who disagrees with you, who's left? Oh that's easy - the vast majority of people out there who use the site every day. And I don't think I particularly railed against the volunteers, it's almost exclusively about the crappy UI. And it is crappy. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time admitting that, the sooner we do, the sooner we can fix it. I do think that there are many things to improve in OSM, but upsetting people is not going to achieve any of them. One thing you might like to try to rebuild is your personal Interface with the Community, which looks broken to me, probably crushed under your ego. Oh get over yourself, if you can't take a sentence like the UI is crappy or Richard is holding up PL2 that's just because you're too tied to the people and not the ideas. Yet again - everyone here is awesome - but that doesn't mean we're all immune from critique and everything we do is perfect. Don't think that because potlatch is crappy and the UI is crappy for the site I don't have any respect for Richard, Mikel or TomC or many others... but come on, it is crappy guys, and the current and previous plans for fixing it were either not happening or very slow. That's the first thing to understand, the second is that the intended audience for any useful update *is not us*. It feels like I really am going to have to do a UI review and get joe publics off the street to show you how powerful things like uservoice are to people out there and not just a 'crappy bolt on'. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:08 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:37 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: * Freeze PL1 (TomH enforces no more updated on the server) and work on PL2 Wow. You'd really try to prevent any improvements that have been coded from being deployed? That's a bad idea. Sure, encourage people to work on P2 instead of P1 by all means, but not by getting OSMF sysadmins to prevent the mapping community from using any improved version of P1. But that's *exactly* what is holding back PL2! Constant tweaking to PL1, as you know because you said it yourself! Yeah, I remember that. I think I said I would spend some time on P2 that Sunday, and I then implemented drag and drop POIs. I think you said you would set up the P2 dev environment. How did you get on with that? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:06 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:27 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Sure, you don't like the way I communicate sometimes Hmm. It sounds to me like you don't think you've done anything wrong? I notice you don't write Sure, I'm grossly offensive without due cause sometimes, but instead infer that the issue isn't the way you behave, instead it's that other people dislike your behaviour. Andy all I'm doing is repeating what I get from newbies all the time, and adding another sentence that you ignore because below you just want to evolve things, and I think it needs a step change. but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss doesn't sound like all you're doing is repeating what you get from newbies. Andy, building community and moving things on is not just be nice to everyone all the time. Sometimes it's also about being honest and saying, this is wrong, we can fix it. If you can't be nice when you criticise, then don't criticise. And please learn the difference between being honest and being rude. * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work You're not seriously suggesting the PL user experience is non-crap and the codebase is non-crap right? Because I think that's all I said. Nice apology. I like the way you've learned to show respect for other people's work. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How inaccurate was the mapnik distance/scale marker?
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Egil Hjelmeland pri...@egil-hjelmeland.no wrote: Dave F. wrote: So one of the mapnik guys could implement it quite easily then? I don't think it is related to mapnik. It is the javascript code served by the web-site that wraps up the map rendered by mapnik, osmarender or what so ever. It is part of the javascript code running in your browser which handles panning, zooming and selection of map-layer. If you are thinking of the map on openstreetmap.org, that would have be done by the maintainers of that site. Egil, perhaps you would contribute your Mercator Scaleline to OpenLayers? http://trac.openlayers.org/wiki/FilingTickets ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:08 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:37 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: * Freeze PL1 (TomH enforces no more updated on the server) and work on PL2 Wow. You'd really try to prevent any improvements that have been coded from being deployed? That's a bad idea. Sure, encourage people to work on P2 instead of P1 by all means, but not by getting OSMF sysadmins to prevent the mapping community from using any improved version of P1. But that's *exactly* what is holding back PL2! Constant tweaking to PL1, as you know because you said it yourself! Yeah, I remember that. So, note everyone, Andy agrees but we just disagree on the implementation. I think we need a step change as PL1 has been sitting around for multiple years, things like a freeze to make sure it happens. Andy believes the softly softly approach. I think I said I would spend some time on P2 that Sunday, and I then implemented drag and drop POIs. I think you said you would set up the P2 dev environment. How did you get on with that? It was nauseating so I decided to figure out other, deeper, changes we can make. Additionally, easy changes which cost much less time/effort but would connect us with the lost newbies, like a feedback tab. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:06 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:27 AM, Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Sure, you don't like the way I communicate sometimes Hmm. It sounds to me like you don't think you've done anything wrong? I notice you don't write Sure, I'm grossly offensive without due cause sometimes, but instead infer that the issue isn't the way you behave, instead it's that other people dislike your behaviour. Andy all I'm doing is repeating what I get from newbies all the time, and adding another sentence that you ignore because below you just want to evolve things, and I think it needs a step change. but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss I also said 'that's fine' doesn't sound like all you're doing is repeating what you get from newbies. yes, I'm going a step further is pointing out the cause. Andy, building community and moving things on is not just be nice to everyone all the time. Sometimes it's also about being honest and saying, this is wrong, we can fix it. If you can't be nice when you criticise, then don't criticise. And please learn the difference between being honest and being rude. * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work You're not seriously suggesting the PL user experience is non-crap and the codebase is non-crap right? Because I think that's all I said. Nice apology. I like the way you've learned to show respect for other people's work. Dude - *my work* was crap! Just go and look at the code! Then people like Matt and Frederik came and Shaun and you added/fixed things. Can't you just get over yourself and admit that a newbie coming to OSM has a crap time? It's not hard! Stop defending it all. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Something I'd like to see in either PL1 or whatever replaces it is a tutorial mode that then corrects people's mapping efforts or makes suggestions on what they could have done better etc. Getting stuff displayed on a map, but getting instant feedback about mapping by newbies would go a long way, especially with subtle mistakes. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:44 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Can't you just get over yourself and admit that a newbie coming to OSM has a crap time? It's not hard! Stop defending it all. Steve, I don't think anyone on this list has said No, I don't understand why newbies are having a hard time. Everything on OSM is as simple as it could be and we should stop trying to spend time making it simpler. I think people are (a) upset with the *way* you brought up the point (repeated personal attacks) and then (b) trying to figure out what you're saying in between all the inane and negative banter so that we can work as a community to solve things. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Chill guys. I still just about remember being a newbie, and I didn't find Potlatch crap. Not knowing what the + button did was crap. The endless contradictory wiki is crap. It's a bit too easy to do something too dramatic in Potlatch by inadvertantly using the wrong keyboard shortcut (merging ways, in particular), and relations are painful. But most of that is invisible to the newbie; it's something you find out later. It's easy enough to create nodes and new ways. I think the biggest reason newbies don't contribute is that when they look where they live, most of them find either a blank canvas or something that looks pretty good enough already, and don't hang around long enough to think I could add x or y is wrong; I'll fix it. Whereas, looking at Google Maps overlaid on aerial photos, I keep finding labelling errors - but I can't fix them. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Yours c. Steve On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:56, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:44 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Can't you just get over yourself and admit that a newbie coming to OSM has a crap time? It's not hard! Stop defending it all. Steve, I don't think anyone on this list has said No, I don't understand why newbies are having a hard time. Everything on OSM is as simple as it could be and we should stop trying to spend time making it simpler. Er see frederiks email and Andys decline to agree :-) I think people are (a) upset with the *way* you brought up the point (repeated personal attacks) and then (b) trying to figure out what you're saying in between all the inane and negative banter so that we can work as a community to solve things. Ian I think if you go back and check I've only made one personal attack, against Richard, which you will also find an apololgy for. Whereas most of the name calling has been actually against me. But as you note I've actually been building thins too.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On 25 February 2010 01:06, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: Chill guys. I still just about remember being a newbie, and I didn't find Potlatch crap. I have a fairly technical background, and it took a 2nd look 6 months later for me to do anything of significance. When I originally signed up I found the whole thing a tad daunting and overwhelming originally, nothing was very clear about what it was I was supposed to be doing, beyond fixing simple mistakes, or how to use GPS traces to enter data that wasn't available from imagery. I over came this, but how many others just don't bother? I've also spent a fair amount of time explaining a lot of the concepts and such surrounding OSM and most people don't get or don't care for higher ideals and when the editor is not intuative to boot they just don't bother doing anything or coming back after a few days. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:21 AM, SteveC wrote: You believe that feedback is a good thing, but, it seems, only if the feedback confirms your own ideas. You have railed against the UI, against hard-working volunteer contributors and against anyone who disagrees with you, who's left? Oh that's easy - the vast majority of people out there who use the site every day. Steve, you keep saying some variation of this, but at some point you're going to need to Show Us The Newbies. These disembodied, confused masses have to be given their own voice, because I don't think that the way you invoke their opinions here is particularly credible. You're summarizing their opinions when I think a much more effective way to make your point might be to come back with specific things about the site they found confusing, and what they were trying to do when they got confused, and *whether people who try to do those things are the audience that OpenStreetMap is built to serve*. If you don't do this, it will continue to seem like you're paraphrasing phantom newbies to support what's basically a turf war here on the list. And I don't think I particularly railed against the volunteers, it's almost exclusively about the crappy UI. And it is crappy. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time admitting that, the sooner we do, the sooner we can fix it. You're definitely railing against volunteers. I don't get involved on this list much, but I read it when I can and I've honestly been shocked at your combative and frankly rude tone. Fix it, get help, whatever, but do it soon. On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:41 AM, SteveC wrote: So, note everyone, Andy agrees but we just disagree on the implementation. I think we need a step change as PL1 has been sitting around for multiple years, things like a freeze to make sure it happens. Andy believes the softly softly approach. PL1 has visibly improved in the years that I've been using it. It's got problems, sure, but the plain dumb fact of the matter is that editing vectors and tending metadata is a *complicated and difficult interface problem*. Adobe Illustrator has a similar basic feature set to what a general purpose OSM editor needs, and it takes designers months if not years to learn how to use it. OSM layers on the additional complication of negotiated key/value metadata that's frequently invisible. Vector editing is hard. Metadata is hard. OSM is both. It seems clear to me that another general purpose editor is not going to solve the newbie editing problem. It also seems clear to me that Potlatch fills an important niche in the project, in that there's nothing else at a comparable level of completeness that I can use in a web browser. It also seems clear to me that segmenting the audience into consumers of the map and producers of the map is worthwhile, so I appreciate your work with the Peruvian designer who simplified the design of the site. The reason people here are questioning that proposal is that it's not exactly clear what specific deficiencies it's addressing - it's just kinda simpler, closer in appearance to maps.google.com, maps.bing.com , and maps.yahoo.com. So, here's a constructive suggestion on how to move forward. You need to expose the newbie voice directly, and you need to communicate which newbie activities are the ones you would like for OSM to support. I think there's a path in OSM, from using the map (e.g. Haiti), to fixing a problem (e.g. bumping into Potlatch for the first time when you see a street name is wrong), to proactive involvement. If you can articulate what it is that all these people get hung up on, then you will engage specific feedback. Right now, all I'm hearing is Potlatch sucks invoking the difficulty of the codebase and problems getting Richard to work on what you want. This is all back office stuff, nobody in the outside world cares and AS3 or version control! Make a case for improvements to the UI of Potlatch. I'll close with this excerpt from a recent conversation I had with Stamen's creative director Eric, about his time working on a mountain climbing project at the late 90's sports website Quokka.com: We had people in for user testing, under two scenarios. The first, the event was just getting started, we brought them in cold, showed them the stuff, asked them what we could do better. They tore it apart: the text was too small, the expectations weren't clear, they didn't know what to click on. To a person all of them said they'd never come back to visit. The second scenario, we paid people $5/day to visit the site, the event was already going on, and asked them to come in after a week. After asking them a few basic questions to verify that they'd actually visited the site, we asked them what we could do better. The suggestions were constructive, delightful, helpful. When asked whether they'd
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
I'd like to say a few words on the home page and editor. 1. Home Page: while I think Steve's proposal addresses some of the criticisms of the way the home page functions, I don't think it takes a holistic view of the project. What someone coming to it will initially see is essentially a me too for Google maps: it offers a service not a project. I do think it is essential to have _a_ map on the home page, but I don't think it need take up the whole page. It need only be a representative map, and for the first time visitor well zoomed out area, so detail is low and it doesn't need to be that big. Once someone searches, clicks on the map, drags, presses the relevant button or whatever, we could go to a page like Steve's where you can also get search results and other direct services like export. But I think on the home page we would do better to have a smaller map and more information visible without clicking tabs links or buttons - a (brief) introduction to the project and link to more, - how to get involved + link, - especially links to all the services, products, projects and innovative ways people have based things around the project that aren't hosted on the site as well as those that are, - contact info for who can help provide services based around OSM (or at least an indication that there are such people and a link to where you can find out about them), - and space for a prominent Report a problem button. At the moment, Mapnik rendering *is* OpenStreetMap as far as the casual visitor is concerned, and I'd rather see that dominance reduced (not taken away, as it is a really good showcase for the outcome of the project, but it is only one), not emphasised even more. 2. Editor: Potlatch (and JOSM) address a different market from a feedback system, OpenStreetBugs or whatever. The latter only works if there is enough context on the map to make an observation about the content. If you're starting on virgin territory, that's not nearly enough. There's a place for both kinds and both kinds need to be improved. I find it hard to envisage a system for near-virgin territory editing which doesn't need at least some of the kind of graphics manipulation you need in products like Adobe Illustrator; but that's far too hard for someone who just notices an error in a well mapped area, so an alternative point and say type interface is definitely needed for these people. Off the main stage, I think it would be helpful for those who are acting on the information such a system provides to have a means of seeing and tracking it, which can be more complex than the reporting UI. OpenStreetBugs corrections in my area seem to fall into three categories: 1. my street/village is not there which is usually not helpful as it hasn't been surveyed yet, 2. incorrect changes: someone goes down a street every day and thinks the map is wrong. But they haven't actually gone and looked for the purpose, or they don't understand the signs, 3. helpful, valuable corrections. Sometimes 2 and 3 are hard to distinguish and need a visit. If someone new does make a change in my area, I usually make a point of checking it if I'm doubtful about it - and many times it does turn out it was my error, but very often not: the original survey was looking in detail and that often beats someone's casual memory. But then OSB is a rarely used tool as no one really knows it is there. I also think a feedback system needs at least the option of someone providing a contact or for them to receive info back - either a thank you, we've corrected the problem (so they get a nice fuizzy feeling of contribution) and/or a question to clarify their contribution (which I've needed more often than not for OSB contributions but have no way to do for anonymous entries, which is most because that's the default). Formal registration is way OTT though. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On 24 February 2010 16:19, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: I'd like to say a few words on the home page and editor. 1. Home Page: while I think Steve's proposal addresses some of the criticisms of the way the home page functions, I don't think it takes a holistic view of the project. What someone coming to it will initially see is essentially a me too for Google maps: it offers a service not a project. This issue is basically our main holy way. And while I can see why you take this view, I disagree with you. It comes back to the issue of users - who they (mostly) are and whether they are like us. When OSM was mostly a lot of spidery lines and even more empty space, it would probably have been a mistake to have a front door that invited users to see us as a Google Maps wannabe that just happened to have crappy maps. Far better to fess up to the fact that we're trying to build something and that you'd better be prepared to get your hands dirty if you want to be involved. I think, and I know many will disagree, that in a lot of the world we now have a much better story to tell the kind of people that don't want dirty hands. These people measure our offering feature for feature against what they already have from Google. Most of the things they care about aren't that difficult to deliver, we just need to decide as a community that we should be delivering them in the first place. Any web site should optimise its top level for the kinds of people it wants to appeal to. Up until now, we've only catered to people broadly like ourselves that will help us to grow the map _in_the_ways_we've_grown_it_to_date_. And I think we have broad agreement that people of that sort need to have an attention span long enough to linger on the site, read bits of the wiki, register and so on. So the proposition is that we find a way on the home page to funnel the curious geeks into the hardcore area of the site - something quite like what we have now, but even for this target group there is surely plenty we can improve. This I would see in the form of a teaser - constantly evolving map: you can help! or similar. But the home page real-estate should otherwise be utterly devoted to user-level features of the sort that non-expert users enjoy elsewhere. User waypoints. User lines and areas. .kml overlays, tracklog imports - we can argue over what these user applications are and which will serve our purpose best, but our goal is first to hook users on our maps and demonstrate that they can be used to solve their actual problems. Because if we don't establish this value, then these users will never feed us their missing street names or mark their local post box or fast food joint. It will seem a shame to us that we're letting people assume that the map _is_ the Mapnik layer or that routing can only be as good as whatever engine we decide to make default. But the fact is that, if we want the world using our map rather than others, way less than 1% of our users will ever render a custom map or crack open a full-features map editor. Our challenge, summarised into two simple points: All those people who, having visited today's site, become contributors: make sure they quickly find the good stuff we already have. The much larger group of people who spend 2 minutes (if that long) trying to work out why they should use OSM rather than Google: show them why. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On 24/02/10 16:58, Dermot McNally wrote: But the home page real-estate should otherwise be utterly devoted to user-level features of the sort that non-expert users enjoy elsewhere. User waypoints. User lines and areas. .kml overlays, tracklog imports - we can argue over what these user applications are and which will serve our purpose best, but our goal is first to hook users on our maps and demonstrate that they can be used to solve their actual problems. Because if we don't establish this value, then these users will never feed us their missing street names or mark their local post box or fast food joint. I completely disagree. We're running a project to map the world, not a project to provide an end user site to compete with google maps. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On 24 February 2010 17:19, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 24/02/10 16:58, Dermot McNally wrote: I completely disagree. We're running a project to map the world, We agree on that - but I claim that to do so effectively we have to harness the power of all those people who don't yet get what we're trying to achieve... not a project to provide an end user site to compete with google maps. ...whereas they _do_ understand google maps and what it can do for them. They need to get over the misconception that OSM can't do those things, a misconception that is reinforced by our current default slippy map. Furthermore, it's a win-win. We don't have to (indeed, we shouldn't) stop all the good stuff we're doing already. We just need to do some extra things, probably with different people working on them. Voluntary projects are like that, of course - you can't go around telling a highly motivated person to stop the worthy task he cares about and work on one he doesn't. Instead, you find someone else who wants to do it. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
I have been very busy (and very put off) recently, so have not read EVERY posting on this topic but I would like to respond on the specific issue of an entry level editor. I can understand where people are coming from (Steve C included), can understand where they might be going, but really don't like the road that is being travelled - viz language/tone/factions/points scoring etc. And this next bit is directed specifically at Steve C: Have you considered a different approach? Given that it is probably accepted that an entry level editor would be a good thing why not work towards it in a more positive way. It is quite possible that you are hearing from loads of people that Potlatch is a (considerable) barrier to entry to working on the data entry. I am not actually sure anyone has ever claimed that PL WAS the answer to this particular matter. I also would just say that for me and my way of working (and yes I know I have a particular level of knowledge that I already bring to bear so am not a good case study) Potlatch is a very comfortable editor to work with, and am pleased with the way it has been developed, and have confidence that PL2 will build on this. It is evident that you have excellent networking abilities, credibility in the wider community, loads of energy, and (perhaps) an understanding of what is required. Why not ask these people you meet to help formulate a brief for said entry level system (even using the dreaded focus groups to do so). Why not then network with some folk who might be in a position to look at the brief and then approach someone (or more) to actually tackle the task, meanwhile acting as project manager to guide it through all the stages that will happen - concept, UI, testing, tweaking, etc (I am no project manager, so excuse ignorance here). Come up with a good result and it will surely be adopted by the project. You will receive considerable kudos if you can help deliver that result, and we will have a better project for it, with hopefully more people data inputting also. Think on it. Cheers STEVE -Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org on behalf of Michal Migurski Sent: Wed 24/02/2010 15:47 To: Talk Openstreetmap Cc: Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:21 AM, SteveC wrote: You believe that feedback is a good thing, but, it seems, only if the feedback confirms your own ideas. You have railed against the UI, against hard-working volunteer contributors and against anyone who disagrees with you, who's left? Oh that's easy - the vast majority of people out there who use the site every day. Steve, you keep saying some variation of this, but at some point you're going to need to Show Us The Newbies. These disembodied, confused masses have to be given their own voice, because I don't think that the way you invoke their opinions here is particularly credible. You're summarizing their opinions when I think a much more effective way to make your point might be to come back with specific things about the site they found confusing, and what they were trying to do when they got confused, and *whether people who try to do those things are the audience that OpenStreetMap is built to serve*. If you don't do this, it will continue to seem like you're paraphrasing phantom newbies to support what's basically a turf war here on the list. And I don't think I particularly railed against the volunteers, it's almost exclusively about the crappy UI. And it is crappy. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time admitting that, the sooner we do, the sooner we can fix it. You're definitely railing against volunteers. I don't get involved on this list much, but I read it when I can and I've honestly been shocked at your combative and frankly rude tone. Fix it, get help, whatever, but do it soon. On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:41 AM, SteveC wrote: So, note everyone, Andy agrees but we just disagree on the implementation. I think we need a step change as PL1 has been sitting around for multiple years, things like a freeze to make sure it happens. Andy believes the softly softly approach. PL1 has visibly improved in the years that I've been using it. It's got problems, sure, but the plain dumb fact of the matter is that editing vectors and tending metadata is a *complicated and difficult interface problem*. Adobe Illustrator has a similar basic feature set to what a general purpose OSM editor
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Thanks a lot Steve, for underlining the need to improve the experience of new visitors. This is right on spot with what we have been feeling regarding Haiti. Now that OSM is indeed the best map in Haiti, there is a kind of special responsibility that comes with this: let potential users know about OSM, and actually use it, and then maybe for some of them help improve it. (Just as an example (I don't mean that these specific points are especially important), there was a few days ago a little discussion about some Haiti thematic maps (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti/Earthquake_map_resources#POI-Maps ) and their coupling with OpenStreetBugs. See e.g.: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ht/2010-February/000244.html ) I am thinking of two concrete ways we could contribute to this effort: - Localization. For instance, help adapting OpenStreetBugs and translating it in Haitian Creole, and maybe also the front page and a few others. (How do we do this ? For OSB, I see http://github.com/emka/openstreetbugs/tree/master/locale/. Is it enough to supply an osb.ht.json file ?) - Get feedback from potential new users. Maybe, without going as far as a formal study like the one you quoted for Wikipedia (http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study ), by organizing one or several hand-on sessions with a few potential users/contributors, possibly with a video recording of their reactions, questions, etc... Do you think this would be useful ? Cheers, Jean-Guilhem Toulouse, France P.S.: also, thanks a lot for your article OpenStreetMap - The Best Map (http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-the-best-map). I really enjoyed reading it, and I think it makes a lot of sense. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Still interest in an Android POI collector?
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Patrick Weber wrote: I tried Navit on Android yesterday, at least on my phone (HTC Magic) it was unusable, the map didnt update properly or follow my movements, and crashed a few times. I also could not find out how to actually set a route On the Freerunner I run Navit, but I changed the xml file to use the menu style gtk. Using the internal display every time you touch the screen because the backlight has gone off something happens on the program so strange things happen when you least want them to. It can choose and navigate a route of about 200km but past that distance I have troubles even with a netbook processor. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:06 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On of the nicest ideas I saw was splitting openstreetmap.com and .org - what you think of that? Have a nice interface on .com for newbies and then the community hub etc on .org Depends what you mean by community hub. The wiki? If so, I think a link from the main site to the wiki is sufficient. Essentially, have osm.org wiki.osm.org. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, SteveC wrote: Andy, building community and moving things on is not just be nice to everyone all the time. Sometimes it's also about being honest and saying, this is wrong, we can fix it. * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work You're not seriously suggesting the PL user experience is non-crap and the codebase is non-crap right? Because I think that's all I said. Well I read more than that, it was personal attack on the developer. Grow Up SteveC Pull Your Horns Back In because an adult would be prepared to apologise. Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OSM Haiti mapping on BBC News website
OSM's Haiti effort gets a BBC News Magazine piece here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8517057.stm ...and it's currently featured on the http://news.bbc.co.uk/ front page. Paul. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On 24 February 2010 09:42, SteveC st...@asklater.com st...@asklater.com wrote: You don't seem to make any realistic suggestions for moving forward and just, instead, suggest potlatch is fine as is the front page. That doesn't seem to be in touch with the reality of every newbie who encounters the project, does it? Steve, I'm sure this is just coincidence (I really do), but this sustained attack on the newbie editing experience, whilst the current blog item on your company's site is about their glorious new easy editor, looks just a little bit tacky... There’s been a lot of work going on behind the scenes to make Mapzen http://mapzen.cloudmade.com/, CloudMade’s family of easy to use OpenStreetMap editing tools, even easier, even more useful and even more fun to use. So what’s new? JS ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 12:16, Jean-Guilhem Cailton j...@arkemie.com wrote: Thanks a lot Steve, for underlining the need to improve the experience of new visitors. And thanks for such a positive response and all your work. This is right on spot with what we have been feeling regarding Haiti. Now that OSM is indeed the best map in Haiti, there is a kind of special responsibility that comes with this: let potential users know about OSM, and actually use it, and then maybe for some of them help improve it. I guess you guys are at the sharp exposed end of usability, in an environment without the time for patiently figuring it all out? It should be said it's amazing we are this far along and evenyone should be proud of that, buy we've been static on usability for far far to long, and we'll fix it. (Just as an example (I don't mean that these specific points are especially important), there was a few days ago a little discussion about some Haiti thematic maps (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti/Earthquake_map_resources#POI-Maps ) and their coupling with OpenStreetBugs. See e.g.: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ht/2010-February/000244.html ) I am thinking of two concrete ways we could contribute to this effort: - Localization. For instance, help adapting OpenStreetBugs and translating it in Haitian Creole, and maybe also the front page and a few others. (How do we do this ? For OSB, I see http://github.com/emka/openstreetbugs/tree/master/locale/ . Is it enough to supply an osb.ht.json file ?) Someone should be able to help here. - Get feedback from potential new users. Maybe, without going as far as a formal study like the one you quoted for Wikipedia (http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study ), by organizing one or several hand-on sessions with a few potential users/contributors, possibly with a video recording of their reactions, questions, etc... Do you think this would be useful ? Yes, let's do it. We need to put some basic tasks and story lines together like add a poi and let people loose. QuickTime X lets you record the screen easily. Lots of ways to do it. Cheers, Jean-Guilhem Toulouse, France P.S.: also, thanks a lot for your article OpenStreetMap - The Best Map (http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-the-best-map). I really enjoyed reading it, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Thanks! And thanks for braving the list! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 8:47, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:21 AM, SteveC wrote: You believe that feedback is a good thing, but, it seems, only if the feedback confirms your own ideas. You have railed against the UI, against hard-working volunteer contributors and against anyone who disagrees with you, who's left? Oh that's easy - the vast majority of people out there who use the site every day. Steve, you keep saying some variation of this, but at some point you're going to need to Show Us The Newbies. These disembodied, confused masses have to be given their own voice, because I don't think that the way you invoke their opinions here is particularly credible. You're summarizing their opinions when I think a much more effective way to make your point might be to come back with specific things about the site they found confusing, and what they were trying to do when they got confused, and *whether people who try to do those things are the audience that OpenStreetMap is built to serve*. If you don't do this, it will continue to seem like you're paraphrasing phantom newbies to support what's basically a turf war here on the list. Mike it seems obvious to me. I've run more mapping parties than anyone and been to more conferences. Through the CM ambassadors it was the same story. It was as I recall your basic and longstandig set of complaints, do you remember? But if it's really not credible then let's do it and get people just to add a big and you can see how hard it is. And I don't think I particularly railed against the volunteers, it's almost exclusively about the crappy UI. And it is crappy. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time admitting that, the sooner we do, the sooner we can fix it. You're definitely railing against volunteers. I don't get involved on this list much, but I read it when I can and I've honestly been shocked at your combative and frankly rude tone. Fix it, get help, whatever, but do it soon. Mike you conveniently concentrated on my responses, did you bother to read all the emails where I'm called a shit and a tosser etc? Are they ok? Or is that all soley my fault too? I'll happily point you at all the times I was flamed when not even doing anything bad, and then we can look at how people like dhh and linus have to communiate too. On Feb 24, 2010, at 6:41 AM, SteveC wrote: So, note everyone, Andy agrees but we just disagree on the implementation. I think we need a step change as PL1 has been sitting around for multiple years, things like a freeze to make sure it happens. Andy believes the softly softly approach. PL1 has visibly improved in the years that I've been using it. It's got problems, sure, but the plain dumb fact of the matter is that editing vectors and tending metadata is a *complicated and difficult interface problem*. Adobe Illustrator has a similar basic feature set to what a general purpose OSM editor needs, and it takes designers months if not years to learn how to use it. OSM layers on the additional complication of negotiated key/value metadata that's frequently invisible. Vector editing is hard. Metadata is hard. OSM is both. It seems clear to me that another general purpose editor is not going to solve the newbie editing problem. It also seems clear to me that Potlatch fills an important niche in the project, in that there's nothing else at a comparable level of completeness that I can use in a web browser. It also seems clear to me that segmenting the audience into consumers of the map and producers of the map is worthwhile, so I appreciate your work with the Peruvian designer who simplified the design of the site. The reason people here are questioning that proposal is that it's not exactly clear what specific deficiencies it's addressing - it's just kinda simpler, closer in appearance to maps.google.com, maps.bing.com , and maps.yahoo.com. So, here's a constructive suggestion on how to move forward. You need to expose the newbie voice directly, and you need to communicate which newbie activities are the ones you would like for OSM to support. I think there's a path in OSM, from using the map (e.g. Haiti), to fixing a problem (e.g. bumping into Potlatch for the first time when you see a street name is wrong), to proactive involvement. If you can articulate what it is that all these people get hung up on, then you will engage specific feedback. Right now, all I'm hearing is Potlatch sucks invoking the difficulty of the codebase and problems getting Richard to work on what you want. This is all back office stuff, nobody in the outside world cares and AS3 or version control! Make a case for improvements to the UI of Potlatch. I think I've gone further in actually building something and sidestepping PL entirely. How you of all people can't see that a simple feedback form is a step forward I don't know. I'll close with
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 13:18, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, SteveC wrote: Andy, building community and moving things on is not just be nice to everyone all the time. Sometimes it's also about being honest and saying, this is wrong, we can fix it. * Steve apologies - without caveats - regarding his demeaning of existing developers work You're not seriously suggesting the PL user experience is non-crap and the codebase is non-crap right? Because I think that's all I said. Well I read more than that, it was personal attack on the developer. Grow Up SteveC Pull Your Horns Back In It's kind of hard not to though, as it still only really has one developer. How would you critique PL *without* implicating it's author? Because the softly softly approach has been going on for years and you an call the progress at best glacial. It's simply not kept up with all the other progress. So, how would you fix it? I suspect you'd ask nicely, offer to pay, offer to pay other people... And we've exahusted all of those. Hence, I posted a whole lot of options which nobody liked, and in the meantime you have seen some genuine emails from newbies and those working with them on how hard it all is. The best we can offer right now is more evolutionary progress as outlined in Andys email. I say that's just not good enough and it lets down all those people. I hear you that you want proof and I'll go and build that, but it just slows it all down again. because an adult would be prepared to apologise. This is starting to get silly that everyone else can have a free for all which I largely ignore, but if I legitimatly call someone out, even in negative tones, thats a crime of the highest order and not only that you don't even go check that i apologised already! Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Ha :-) Believe it or not I only just found out mapzen is GPL And as I pointed out before, it shares problems with PL like not having an open community behind it. Yours c. Steve On Feb 24, 2010, at 13:44, Jamie Smith jamiekrsm...@googlemail.com wrote: On 24 February 2010 09:42, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: You don't seem to make any realistic suggestions for moving forward and just, instead, suggest potlatch is fine as is the front page. That doesn't seem to be in touch with the reality of every newbie who encounters the project, does it? Steve, I'm sure this is just coincidence (I really do), but this sustained attack on the newbie editing experience, whilst the current blog item on your company's site is about their glorious new easy editor, looks just a little bit tacky... There’s been a lot of work going on behind the scenes to make Mapze n, CloudMade’s family of easy to use OpenStreetMap editing tools, even easier, even more useful and even more fun to use. So what’s new? JS ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:36 PM, SteveC wrote: On Feb 24, 2010, at 8:47, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote: If you don't do this, it will continue to seem like you're paraphrasing phantom newbies to support what's basically a turf war here on the list. Mike it seems obvious to me. I've run more mapping parties than anyone and been to more conferences. Through the CM ambassadors it was the same story. It was as I recall your basic and longstandig set of complaints, do you remember? No, I believe you, and I totally sympathize with the point that the newbie experienced should be improved. But in what direction? Tell us something specific that these newbies said! Actually, re-read the very end of my last mail, where I quote Eric's experience with asking people what they think of something the first time they see it. Negative reactions are a normal first response to surprise, and they may not be the response that teaches us anything. Getting a second or third response, recording it and making it public here or on the wiki are important - it gives people someplace to hang their hat when discussing the many problems of newbies. My two biggest problems with OSM when I first joined have been basically addressed in the intervening years: I didn't like that the Mapnik layer took multiple days to reflect updates, and I thought Potlatch kinda sucked. Both of those things have been improved, the former through mod_tile (or something) and the latter through effort on Richard's end as well as my own growing familiarity with how it works. Turns out that spending a bit of time with the thing is beneficial. But if it's really not credible then let's do it and get people just to add a big and you can see how hard it is. Sorry, add a big what? Mike you conveniently concentrated on my responses, did you bother to read all the emails where I'm called a shit and a tosser etc? Are they ok? Or is that all soley my fault too? I'll happily point you at all the times I was flamed when not even doing anything bad, and then we can look at how people like dhh and linus have to communiate too. I'm sorry you've been called a shit and a tosser. I haven't done so. If you can articulate what it is that all these people get hung up on, then you will engage specific feedback. Right now, all I'm hearing is Potlatch sucks invoking the difficulty of the codebase and problems getting Richard to work on what you want. This is all back office stuff, nobody in the outside world cares and AS3 or version control! Make a case for improvements to the UI of Potlatch. I think I've gone further in actually building something and sidestepping PL entirely. How you of all people can't see that a simple feedback form is a step forward I don't know. There's nothing actually wrong with the feedback form, it's totally fine. It's not where I'd expect to send problems with the map data itself, but people who aren't familiar with the project might have all kinds of ideas about what they can or can't do. It's basically the same kind of thing as Google's report a problem link, another slightly clumsy but totally adequate way to address the issue of bad data. The form is not relevant to the question of the editor, however. Right now, I'm looking at the mockups in your post, and trying to understand why you're mixing in all this talk of problems with Potlatch with the front page design. What else is going to go behind that second tab? I think we're still left with the problem I identified in my mail, which is that vector and metadata editing are two unbelievably difficult UI problems and I'm thankful that the people behind Potlatch and JOSM have dealt with them in a their own ways. I've taken MapZen for a test drive, and it's actually pretty damn good. It's a full-on general editor, which I think makes it ineligible for the newbie conversation, but it doesn't suck and I see that you've just pointed out the GPL license. Good for Cloudmade! The second scenario, we paid people $5/day to visit the site, the event was already going on, and asked them to come in after a week. After asking them a few basic questions to verify that they'd actually visited the site, we asked them what we could do better. The suggestions were constructive, delightful, helpful. When asked whether they'd come back, basically all of them said yes that they'd be back every day to check in until the summit had been reached. I guess I'm genuinely surprised we really need to go to such lengths, but hey. It seems sane to me. I'm willing to put up my own money to fund something like this. I think it could be done via Craigslist in a few communities to get real human beings to respond. I think it will also handle the Show Us The Newbies concern that I brought up, because it will create a pool of new users who might not otherwise come to a
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward - and back
I just thought that you'd like the opinion of a (not so) newbie in this intense discussion. In order to attract people (potential mappers) to the site it has to offer something back - it has to have functionality. Not functionality to the mapper - Potlatch is quite adequate for my level of expertise - but both a reason and a reward for taking an interest in OSM. I'd suggest that some of this functionality could be provided by links to a couple of recently mentioned sites, and probably others; 1. Openrouteservice.org This is a clear demonstration of how the OSM data can be used to provide a useful service to the user. It's a usable and useful tool, and as an added bonus readily demonstrates any weaknesses in local OSM data. 2. Maposmatic.org Anyone visiting OSM will have an interest in getting a map of some description. Ordinary punters will have no interest whatsoever in rendering - all they want is a map. Maposmatic provides just that, without bogging the user down in technical detail. Between them these two sites offer the rewards that might just tempt people into contributing to the OSM project because they can connect data gathering with an end-product, without inviting the user to undertake an instant course in half-a-dozen arcane IT subjects. So my message is - add functionality and usability to the OSM entry point by linking to usable, useful sites. Why else would they want to visit the site? If the site is genuinely useful, and perhaps inspiring, they'll come again and may start to contribute. Once they are 'hooked' you can expose them to appalling mire of the OSM Wiki and so-called help pages. By then they may have the inspiration to plough through it all to satisfy their own particular needs. UrbanRambler. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
Hi everybody, right now Schuyler Troubleseeker Erle and Tom Buckley are down here in the Caribbean. I hope some day I will be able as well to give some OSM workshops, I live just around the corner of the quake. Could we prepare something like a methodology of usability evaluation, to give something like a checklist to the OSM folks who will give these workshops? I hope this does not sound like a thesis title ;-) Perhaps you, Steve? Perhaps as you have so much experience with newbie parties, perhaps you could define the focal points and defects in usability, just a list of issues you noticed with the people, for the trainers to be prepared. Potlatch discussion: My personal point of view regarding Potlatch is, that I personally don't want to edit maps in the browser. I know, the hype says the browser is/ can everything, but for other than basic editing, I want an external program. Today we have platform independent toolkits like QT and Wx or Java, for me the usability is much better like this. One link to the statically linked exe and we are ready to go. OSM web site: I agree that the website could polish its chrome a bit, in other words, we should look for a talented designer who knows CSS. I agree as well that the logo has nearly a sympathic 80s oldschool retro style if you know what I mean, Amiga demo scene ;-) . No no, not really that much. :-) The website environment looks right now as gray and cold like a website for a polar bear lever cancer laboratory, with an awesome map. I understand this, I am as well a technician who is an aestethic ignorant. Cheers, I'm already late, having right now a date with a good-looking female haitian voodoo priest in Santo Domingo ;-) Jochen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward - and back
Am 25.02.2010 00:31, schrieb Vic Morgan: I just thought that you'd like the opinion of a (not so) newbie in this intense discussion. 1. Openrouteservice.org 2. Maposmatic.org I guess you have made a *very* valid point here. Promoting an easier to use bug tracking system doesn't make any sense for an area where there's no one to take care about it (experience even from german high coverage mapper areas). Here in germany we already have lot's of useful data, but the current openstreetmap.org makes it damned hard to find the usefulness. For Garmin users (which is currently by far the easiest way to use OSM data IMHO), you have to find: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download buried deep down in the wiki. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Thoughts on OSM design, and looking forward and back
SteveC writes: Or some combination. Whatever happens my best outcome would be something that 1) Has a big open source community behind it 2) Is easy(ier) to use PL1, PL2, MapZen don't do (1) JOSM does do (1) but for a newbie, does not do (2). Part of the problem with Potlatch is: o It tries to be easy and approachable, and o It succeeds at that and has lots of users, and o Those users want to do more sophisticated editing, and o They want features that aren't easy and approachable, and o RichardF, being a nice person and liking his users, puts them in. IMHO, we need RichardF to be more of a bastard, and say No, this isn't going into Potlatch. Go away and learn JOSM or Merkaartor; they're not THAT hard. Reiterate with $POTLATCH_REPLACEMENT and $AUTHOR; this problem isn't intrinsic to Potlatch or RichardF. It's not about RichardF being a volunteer; for-profit software companies do the same thing. It's not about software or people, it's about systems. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Beste OSM'ers, Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgende-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx -- Met vriendelijke groet, Bas de Lange -- Best regards, Bas de Lange http://www.basdelange.com ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
2010/2/24 bas de Lange b...@basdelange.com: Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgende-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Christ van Willegen wrote: Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Hoezo 'aanstaande'? :) En Bas, geef bij de volgende plak eens wat context. Waarom is dit relevant voor OSM, wat gaan wij ervan merken, moeten we hier bij de volgende mapping party gedegen rekening mee houden door referentiepunten te zoeken en de apparatuur te 'ijken'? Dat zou je posts nog een stuk interessanter maken, jouw gedegen analyse van het nieuws. -- Lennard ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Op 24-02-10 14:58, Christ van Willegen schreef: 2010/2/24 bas de Langeb...@basdelange.com: Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgende-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Als dat kastje 'echt niet' op je auto is aangesloten. En de APK de enige kilometerstand overname is... dan kun je daar leuke dingen mee doen ;) Stefan ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Of voor als straks er straks een mapping-oorlog uitbreekt: Met stoorzenders achter de concurrent aan rijden... Groet, Evil Floris :) Christ van Willegen wrote: 2010/2/24 bas de Lange b...@basdelange.com: Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgende-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Dit is geschreven door iemand met gebrek aan aandacht. Waarom ingewikkeld storen als het makkelijk kan. Elke 100 mW 1470 / 1520 MHz stoorzender legt GPS plat in de wijde omgeving. Het is veel simpeler en goedkoper om het internet plat te leggen met stoorapparatuur en je bereikt meer slachtoffers: Megawatt microgolf puls zender in de buurt van elke concentratie van CISCO apparatuur. Een zware surge generator aansluiten op het lichtnet van een datacentrum. Een open magnetron met een richt antenne kan al heel wat schade aanrichten in de handen van: noem eens iemand Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Floris Looijesteijn Verzonden: woensdag 24 februari 2010 16:11 Aan: OpenStreetMap NL discussion list Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack Of voor als straks er straks een mapping-oorlog uitbreekt: Met stoorzenders achter de concurrent aan rijden... Groet, Evil Floris :) Christ van Willegen wrote: 2010/2/24 bas de Lange b...@basdelange.com: Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgend e-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
doe je de bouwtekeningen even erbij ? stelletje vandalen :) Op 24 februari 2010 21:25 heeft ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl het volgende geschreven: Dit is geschreven door iemand met gebrek aan aandacht. Waarom ingewikkeld storen als het makkelijk kan. Elke 100 mW 1470 / 1520 MHz stoorzender legt GPS plat in de wijde omgeving. Het is veel simpeler en goedkoper om het internet plat te leggen met stoorapparatuur en je bereikt meer slachtoffers: Megawatt microgolf puls zender in de buurt van elke concentratie van CISCO apparatuur. Een zware surge generator aansluiten op het lichtnet van een datacentrum. Een open magnetron met een richt antenne kan al heel wat schade aanrichten in de handen van: noem eens iemand Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Floris Looijesteijn Verzonden: woensdag 24 februari 2010 16:11 Aan: OpenStreetMap NL discussion list Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack Of voor als straks er straks een mapping-oorlog uitbreekt: Met stoorzenders achter de concurrent aan rijden... Groet, Evil Floris :) Christ van Willegen wrote: 2010/2/24 bas de Lange b...@basdelange.com: Zie hier: http://www.automatiseringgids.nl/it-in-bedrijf/beheer/2010/8/gps-volgend e-slachtoffer-georganiseerde-hack.aspx Mede 'interessant', natuurlijk, vanwege het aanstaande kilometerheffing-debacle... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] GPS volgende slachtoffer georganiseerde hack
Op 24-02-10 21:52, Rob schreef: doe je de bouwtekeningen even erbij ? stelletje vandalen :) De AIVD leest mee... ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [talk-au] GA national park and state forest datasource - been discussed before?
Chris, That GA dataset IMHO would form a good base for national/state forests. Looking at the metadata it is suitable at a 1:5 000 000 scale and therefore a whole heap of small parks will be missing/totally inaccurate, but as I said it would provide a base to start updating/adding missing parks etc. Craig I've been poking around for Qld National parks and State Forests info to allow me to bring the data in from DCDB, and came across this CC licenced dataset at GA which I hadn't seen referenced on the wiki or the mailing list before: Geoscience Australia - Land Tenure 2003 CC licenced dataset of Land Tenure, National Parks, State Forests (or equivalent) etc: * http://www.ga.gov.au/meta/ANZCW0703005424.html * https://www.ga.gov.au/products/servlet/controller?event=GEOCAT_DETAILScatno=42340 This is good stuff right? The state forests and national parks would be nice to import? I've added it as a potential datasource to this page of the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Imports#Geoscience_Australia_-_Land_Tenure Features included in dataset: ---Polygon Aboriginal reserve over 100km2 Aboriginal freehold over 100km2 Aboriginal leasehold over 100km2 Defence land Forest reserve Freehold land other than Aboriginal land Leasehold land other than Aboriginal land Marine reserve Mining reserve Multiple public land parcels Aboriginal freehold-national park Nature conservation reserve Other Crown land Unallocated area of ocean Vacant crown land Water supply reserve ---Point Aboriginal reserve 0.1 to 10km2 Aboriginal reserve 10 to 100km2 Aboriginal freehold 0.1 to 10km2 Aboriginal freehold 10 to 100km2 Aboriginal leasehold 0.1 to 10km2 Aboriginal leasehold 10 to 100km2 ---Chain Coastline of Australia Reserve boundary State borders Tile edge ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Overmapping?
Hi all! With the excellent resolution of the nearmap images, the smallest detailscan easily be added. But is this always a good idea? Have a look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.073593lon=115.755062zoom=18 The footways along Duoro Road and Harbour Street (but not the one between them!) do not carry any information IMHO, but clutter the map display, especially on GPS units. With three times as much nodes per meter of the street(the actual road + 2 footways), data processing and editing is getting ever more resource hungry. For pedestrian routing, the same information can be represented by adding pavement=left/right/both (I think there was a proposed tag, but I can't find it on the map features page) to the highway and highway=crossing at the crossing nodes (where currently there are mapping errors, because the footways and highways are not connected). What is lost, is precision of the map display at the meter-scale, i.e. at the scale of GPS accuracy. I don't think there is any tag that currently renders. One might imagine having a wider border of the road on the side of the pavement, in the correct color (footway/cycleway/path). This even has the advantage that the pavement remains visible on smaller zoom levels, where in 1:1 mapping, the overwide drawing of the roads usually hides it. IIRC there was a proposed implementation for osmarender doing sth. along these lines a while ago. What is everybody's opinion on this? Map whatever you can, or abstract certain features? Regards, Michael ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hiking tracks: foot=yes or foot=designated?
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:59 PM, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: I think it is useful. We're used to it with road networks, with national routes and state routes. Sure, hiking trails are shorter, but that doesn't mean it's unworkable. Just so we're on the same page, I understand you as proposing that we use NWN for the AAWT and the BNT, and nothing else. Zero IWT, two NWN, lots of RWN and LWN. I think we can do better. I originally put the Overland track as a RWN, then switched to NWN. One consequence of this it is shows up at lower zoom levels on lonvia's hiking map. Since there are so few long distance hiking trails in Australia (compared to, say, central europe), we should (IMHO) be fairly liberal with the higher designations, as there is no danger of overcrowding the map. I'm not going to say anything about tagging for the r... (oops, nearly did). I won't say anything about how it's valid to use current renderer practice to inform the use of tags in the absence of anything more authoritative, until now. But is it a wilderness area, where route markers are prohibited? Dunno. I suspect it's fairly well trafficked anyway. They'd obviously gravitate towards the route showing on the GPS in their hand. This is pretty much OT, but from the few people I've talked to, following a GPS while on this kind of trek is not yet standard practice. And I really think we can cross the bridge of harm caused by OSM data when we get to it... (By which I mean, sure, interesting topic for discussion, I just don't want to debate it here.) Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Overmapping?
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Michael spam...@gmx-ist-cool.de wrote: The footways along Duoro Road and Harbour Street (but not the one between them!) do not carry any information IMHO I disagree. They indicate that there is a footway there. If it's a verifiable fact, IMHO it rightly belongs in the OSM database. but clutter the map display, especially on GPS units. With three times as much nodes per meter of the street(the actual road + 2 footways), data processing and editing is getting ever more resource hungry. This, on the other hand, may well be true. But IMHO this is NOT a reason to limit what gets entered into the OSM database, but simply to *pre-process* the OSM data (filtering out unwanted details as desired) prior to loading onto the GPS unit. For pedestrian routing, the same information can be represented by adding pavement=left/right/both (I think there was a proposed tag, but I can't find it on the map features page) to the highway and highway=crossing at the crossing nodes (where currently there are mapping errors, because the footways and highways are not connected). What is lost, is precision of the map display at the meter-scale, i.e. at the scale of GPS accuracy. This argument comes up now and then. The conclusion is always: each to their own. But please don't remove explicitly mapped ways and replace them with tags if the ways are already correct. I don't think there is any tag that currently renders. One might imagine having a wider border of the road on the side of the pavement, in the correct color (footway/cycleway/path). This even has the advantage that the pavement remains visible on smaller zoom levels, where in 1:1 mapping, the overwide drawing of the roads usually hides it. IIRC there was a proposed implementation for osmarender doing sth. along these lines a while ago. This is a separate issue. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Overmapping?
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Roy Wallace wrote: but clutter the map display, especially on GPS units. With three times as much nodes per meter of the street(the actual road + 2 footways), data processing and editing is getting ever more resource hungry. This, on the other hand, may well be true. But IMHO this is NOT a reason to limit what gets entered into the OSM database, but simply to *pre-process* the OSM data (filtering out unwanted details as desired) prior to loading onto the GPS unit. i agree. perhaps a cyclist would want the roads removed for some styles of map ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Overmapping?
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: This, on the other hand, may well be true. But IMHO this is NOT a reason to limit what gets entered into the OSM database, but simply to *pre-process* the OSM data (filtering out unwanted details as desired) prior to loading onto the GPS unit. i agree. perhaps a cyclist would want the roads removed for some styles of map Yeah, Matt already provides special maps for cyclists, where all roads are rendered on Garmins as the thinnest possible line, but bike paths are thicker. http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php Anyway, I think Roy is right - it's fine to map footpaths, but they should be distinguishable from other walking paths so they don't clutter up GPSes. I'd be tempted by the americanism sidewalk=yes in addition to highway=footway. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] GA national park and state forest datasource - been discussed before?
Yeah, but: The data are subject to Copyright. Data files may be downloaded from Geoscience Australia's website at www.ga.gov.au/download/. A licence agreement is required. Strange wording, and where is this licence agreement? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hiking tracks: foot=yes or foot=designated?
Steve Bennett wrote: Just so we're on the same page, I understand you as proposing that we use NWN for the AAWT and the BNT, and nothing else. Zero IWT, two NWN, lots of RWN and LWN. Yes, until we develop other national trails. I think we can do better. I don't. When the Bicentennial National Trail got named, the meaning of national was clearly understood. It should have the same meaning in the expression national walking network. I see no compelling reason for it not to. I see two arguments raised for relaxing the meaning of national: . The number of NWNs and RWNs is out of balance, with there being many more RWNs than NWNs. . NWNs render at a lower zoom level than RWNs. I reckon these arguments are trivial and inconsequential compared with confusion created by using the term national in some watered-down way. I won't say anything about how it's valid to use current renderer practice to inform the use of tags in the absence of anything more authoritative, until now. That's as comprehensible as something I'd write on a bad day :) This is pretty much OT, but from the few people I've talked to, following a GPS while on this kind of trek is not yet standard practice. And I really think we can cross the bridge of harm caused by OSM data when we get to it... (By which I mean, sure, interesting topic for discussion, I just don't want to debate it here.) When it does get debated, bear in mind that the incentive to use a GPS unit for bush navigation is going to be greater in an area where track markers are not permitted. John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[Talk-br] Plug-in de Transporte Público no JOSM
-- Forwarded message -- From: Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de Date: Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:32 AM Subject: [Talk-transit] Public Transport Plugin To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org Hello everybody, the Public Transport Plugin for JOSM has been updated and has now a comprehensive documentation at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/public_transport Any comment welcome. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
[Talk-br] Diagrama de Linhas de Transporte Públi co
Mais uma coisa interessante sobre Transporte Público -- Forwarded message -- From: Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de Date: Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM Subject: [Talk-transit] Line diagrams To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org Hello everybody, to encourage mapping public transport, Tiziano and I have developed a line diagram generator that displays nice diagrams from (sufficiently properly mapped) bus routes. A showroom example is http://78.46.81.38/misc/showroom.svg generated by the URL http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch- line?network=APS%20Mobilit%C3%A0ref=22style=paduamax-cors- below=12correspondences=100http://78.46.81.38/api/sketch-%0Aline?network=APS%20Mobilit%C3%A0ref=22style=paduamax-cors-%0Abelow=12correspondences=100 (takes about a minute) The tool is documented at http://78.46.81.38/public_transport.html Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Digest Talk-br, volume 17, assunto 24
Tem um projeto que está rolando na Câmara Federal que pode ter a ver com o tema: http://tinyurl.com/yfdhjft. Creio que o projeto tem mais a ver com acesso a informações da época da ditadura, mas vale a pena pesquisar. 2010/2/23 Fernando Caldas fernandoccal...@gmail.com Fala Vitor. Na época (em 2008) eu pedi o conteúdo (termos) desse contrato (na lista) mas ninguem retornou. Aqui no Brasil nem se fala. Me mantenho ativo na lista apenas para seguir o que sai de novidade, e quando sai o silêncio é total... parece uma caixa preta... é muito estranho. Recebí retorno uma vez em off... a pessoa pediu-me que não a indentificasse mas esclareceu algumas questões. Sobre as observações do Arlindo, esses dados levantados pela fetranspor, não estão com a prefeitura do RJ e sim com a fetranspor, que pagou pelo levantamento. É muito estranho essa situação, no mínimo questionável. Outra situação é sobre a validade desses dados para o OSM. Não entendo ainda como funciona o OSM mas vale lembrar que o levantamento de coordenadas é feito um cima dos mapas do google que me paracer não coincidir com os dados gerados pelo GPS, é correto isso? abç, Fernando. ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Atualização do Status de Mapeamento da Cidade de São Paulo
Para mim parecendo que so eu fazendo os cidades capixaba. 2010/2/23 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva brauliobeze...@gmail.com: Também me sinto assim. Uma solução é você mudar pra Natal :P Em 23 de fevereiro de 2010 09:50, Arlindo Pereira openstreet...@arlindopereira.com escreveu: Queria ter alguém para dividir assim aqui no Rio... me sinto solitário aqui :'( []s Em 23 de fevereiro de 2010 08:04, Diogo diogownunes2...@yahoo.com.br escreveu: Olá Pessoal, Atualizei a wiki com algumas imagens com o status do mapeamento da cidade de São Paulo, quem quiser ajudar a organizar o esforço dá uma olhada por lá: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/SP/S%C3%A3o_Paulo#Situa.C3.A7.C3.A3o_do_Mapeamento Aproveitei a grade feita pelo Claudomiro, e fiz uma nova com o status in progress, do que já está mapeado e o que precisa ser melhorado. O X marca os lugares já bem mapeados, enquando que os quadros em branco, os lugares que precisam melhorar. Eu só fiz o levantamento em 10 km2 a partir do centro da cidade, então podem ter mais ou menos coisas melhor mapeadas. Como fiz isso ontem à noite, o status está bem up-to-date. Um abraço, Diogo Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-de] Arztpraxen
Ulf Lamping schrieb: Ihr könnt hier gerne diskutieren solange ihr wollt was denn laut Wörterbuch richtig oder falsch ist, ändern wird das aus meiner Sicht am bereits etablierten doctors aber nichts mehr. +1 Zumal: * physician eine höhere Tippfehlerwahrscheinlichkeit hat. * Mit Physiker verwechselt werden könnte ;-) Chris ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Motivation zum Beheben von Bug-meldungen von kommerziellen Verwertern der OSM Daten?!?
Hallo, Tirkon wrote: Wird Skobbler die OSM Datenbank nach seinen Wünschen und/oder mit/gegen den Willen der Community aktiv umzugestalten versuchen? Ich denke mal, Skobbler bringt einfach viele neue User - und damit eventuell verstaerktes User-Interesse nach Dingen, die fuer die Navigation wichtig sind. Und das ist ja nicht schlecht, dann is Qbert Biker nicht mehr so alleine :-) Wird Skobbler zu Anfang oder auch später ein Editor für OSM sein? Dann wäre ein Editieren vor Ort möglich - mit allen Vor- und Nachteilen. Sinnvoll waere das sicher, zumindest fuer einfache Edits bleibt einem so der Umweg ueber OpenStreetBugs erspart. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] FOSSGIS/OSM-Konferenz: Anmeldung noch bis 2 6.Februar möglich
Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com wrote: Massmailings dagegen sind nichts anderes als Werbung, das ist eine einseitige Sache. Au weia einfach mal die Kirche im Dorf lassen! Es geht hier um Massenmails die für eine Veranstaltung innerhalb des Projektes werben zu dem sich der Benutzer selbst angemeldet hat! Derzeit gibt es den Schalter Informiere mich über Veranstaltungen noch nicht, aber ich finde, dass man den im Rahmen einer Anmeldung durchaus per default auf on schalten kann. Ich finde das durchaus schade, dass es eine große Menge von Mappern geben wird, die von der FOSSGIS erst hinterher erfahren werden. In Kombination mit den nicht vorhandenen Aufzeichnungen der Vorträge noch unschöner. Gruss Sven -- I'm a bastard, and proud of it (Linus Torvalds, Wednesday Sep 6, 2000) /me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] FOSSGIS/OSM-Konferenz: Anmeldung noch bis 26.Februar möglich
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 05:07:17AM +0100, Tirkon wrote: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 3) Wird es zumindest Audioaufzeichnungen der Vorträge geben? Da gilt das gleiche wie mit den Videoaufzeichnungen - wenn sich irgendjemand darum kuemmert, ist das sicher kein Problem. Leider werde ich aus beruflichen Gründen erst kurzfristig wissen, ob ich zum OSM Teil kommen kann. Sitzt dort ständig jemand am Audio Mischpult? Wenn ich es richtig sehe, braucht es dann nur zwei MP3 Player mit Anschlusskabel sowie einige vorbereitete Einverständniserklärungen für die einzelnen Vorträge gemäß Programm. An wen müsste ich mich da im Vorfeld wegen der Bestimmung des notwendigen Kabels wenden? Das gibt es sicher kein großartiges Audio-Mischpult an dem jemand sitzt. Das sind Uni-Hörsäle, die haben üblicherweise was simples eingebaut. Du kannst dich an Kai Behncke kbehn...@igf.uni-osnabrueck.de wenden, vielleicht kann der Dir weiterhelfen, der macht die Orga vor Ort. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Flächendefintionen in Zeitungen
Moin ! wenn in Regionalzeitungen Flächen z.b. für Hundefreillauf beschrieben werden und ggf. grafisch dargestellt werden. In wieweit würdet Ihr diese in OSM übernehmen bzw. als Referenzliste abschreiben und im örtlichen Wiki-Teil hinterlegen ? Gruß Jan :-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] FOSSGIS/OSM-Konferenz: Anmeldung noch bis 26.Februar möglich
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 09:52:00AM +0100, Jochen Topf wrote: Das gibt es sicher kein großartiges Audio-Mischpult an dem jemand sitzt. Das sind Uni-Hörsäle, die haben üblicherweise was simples eingebaut. Du kannst dich an Kai Behncke kbehn...@igf.uni-osnabrueck.de wenden, vielleicht kann der Dir weiterhelfen, der macht die Orga vor Ort. Ach, manche Unis sidn da recht gut ausgestattet. Sobald ein Mikrofon in Benutzung ist, kan man in 95% aller Faelle problemlos aufzeichnen. Aber die Leute vor Ort sollten da am besten helfen koennen... Prinzipiell wuerde ich mich fuer sowas gerne anbieten, aber Osnabrueck ist mir dann doch zu weit... ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Telefone ohne Geldannahme
Hi ! es gibt vom Pink-Panther Telefonsäulen [1] ohne Dach und ohne Währungsannahme von denen nur eine 0800er-Nummer angerufen werden kann und SOS-Rufe getätigt werden können. Da ich bis dato keine Tags gefunden habe wollte ich diese wie folgt erfassen: amenity = telephone operator = Telekom call = SOS;0800 wie denkt Ihr darüber ??? Gruß Jan :-) [1] http://www.tetti.de/bilder/2007/0800-sos-1000-0633.jpg ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] FOSSGIS/OSM-Konferenz: Anmeldung noch bis 26.Februar möglich
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 08:40:12AM +, Sven Geggus wrote: Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com wrote: Massmailings dagegen sind nichts anderes als Werbung, das ist eine einseitige Sache. Au weia einfach mal die Kirche im Dorf lassen! Es geht hier um Massenmails die für eine Veranstaltung innerhalb des Projektes werben zu dem sich der Benutzer selbst angemeldet hat! Derzeit gibt es den Schalter Informiere mich über Veranstaltungen noch nicht, aber ich finde, dass man den im Rahmen einer Anmeldung durchaus per default auf on schalten kann. Ich mache ab und zu mal groessere Mailings an Kunden; die haben sich auch angemeldet, aber nicht, um staendig mit Mails zugesch. zu werden; ich wage also durchaus zu behaupten, mich in der Materie etwas auszukennen, sowohl als Taeter, als auch als Opfer. Wenn's um so Dinge wie eine Lizenzaenderung geht, die wirklich jeden betreffen, dann mag so eine Massenmail durchaus tolerierbar sein. Aber das fuer jede Kleinigkeit von Ankuendigung zu nutzen, geht definitiv zu weit. Ich finde das durchaus schade, dass es eine große Menge von Mappern geben wird, die von der FOSSGIS erst hinterher erfahren werden. Es gibt bei OSM jede Menge Kanaele, an Informationen zu kommen. Wenn jemand wirklich interessiert da ran geht, wird er sicherlich frueher oder spaeter auf entsprechende Infos stossen. Vor allem gehe ich davon aus, dass der Grossteil der Mapper auf einer Veranstaltung wie der Fossgis etwas fehl am Platz ist. In Kombination mit den nicht vorhandenen Aufzeichnungen der Vorträge noch unschöner. Wenn du Aufzeichnungen willst, dann kuemmer dich drum, dass das passiert! Sollte die Fossgis mal im sueddeutschen Raum stattfinden, werde ich gerne mein Know-How aktiv zur Verfuegung stellen. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Neue Mailingliste Ruhrgebiet
Hallo, zum Informationsaustausch über die Stadtgrenzen hinaus steht der OSM Community im gesamten Ruhrgebiet ab sofort eine eigene Mailingliste zur Verfügung. Auch soll Mappern in Ruhrgebietsstädten ohne eigene Mailingliste ein Forum gegeben werden um ihre lokale Arbeit zu organisieren. Wenn du dich für die Mailingliste anmelden möchtest kannst du das hier erledigen. https://lists.openstreetmap.de/mailman/listinfo/ruhrgebiet Viel Spaß beim lesen! Olaf ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Telefone ohne Geldannahme
es gibt vom Pink-Panther Telefonsäulen [1] ohne Dach und ohne Währungsannahme von denen nur eine 0800er-Nummer angerufen werden kann und SOS-Rufe getätigt werden können. Wie schon mehrmals auf der Liste gepostet... Das ist ein Basistelefon, der Telefonzellenersatz in umsatzschwachen Gegenden. Hier auf dem Land die einzig noch verbliebenen öffentlichen Telefone. Die werden mit T-Card, Calling, Kredit usw. gefüttert. Steht auf den Teilen auch ausführlich drauf. Hat nichts mit Notruf oder 0800 zu tun. Beides sind nur die üblichen Grundfunktionen. Gruß Mirko ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Telefone ohne Geldannahme
also lieber tagen als coin no phonecard no um rauszustellen das die zahlarten nicht vergessen wurden? (die genauen tags habe ich gerade nicht im kopf) Mirko Küster wrote: es gibt vom Pink-Panther Telefonsäulen [1] ohne Dach und ohne Währungsannahme von denen nur eine 0800er-Nummer angerufen werden kann und SOS-Rufe getätigt werden können. Wie schon mehrmals auf der Liste gepostet... Das ist ein Basistelefon, der Telefonzellenersatz in umsatzschwachen Gegenden. Hier auf dem Land die einzig noch verbliebenen öffentlichen Telefone. Die werden mit T-Card, Calling, Kredit usw. gefüttert. Steht auf den Teilen auch ausführlich drauf. Hat nichts mit Notruf oder 0800 zu tun. Beides sind nur die üblichen Grundfunktionen. Gruß Mirko ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Telefone ohne Geldannahme
hi, wenn es wirklich ein telefon wäre (bin mir nicht ganz sicher aber ich hab wohl auch schon solche gesehen) ist der tag amenity=emergency_phone wohl das beste. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency_phone mfg wambacher - Erst wenn der letzte Programmierer eingesperrt... ...und die letzte Idee patentiert ist, werdet ihr merken, dass Anwälte nicht programmieren können. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Telefone-ohne-Geldannahme-tp4625018p4625153.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Tauchen
Hallo, Es gibt in diesen Bereichen aber auch nur sehr wenige Punkte.. Seltsam, die Bereiche hatte ich mir ausgesucht weil ich dachte, daß da am meisten Taucher unterwegs sind und so evtl auch Daten in der Datenbank. Ich hatte um: http://osm.t-i.ch/cgi- bin/osm/osmpoinit.pl?lat=12.020502lon=93.005666zoom=18layers=B000FTF das Tauchcenter und einige Tauchplätze eingetragen. Bisher erscheint da nichts. Wird das Overlay direkt aus der Datenbank erzeugt oder dauert es bis da etwas neues erscheint? Der Overlay ist natürlich kein Ersatz für eine Karte, auf der die Symbole direkt in den Tiles gerendert werden. OpenSeaMap? FreieTonne? Anyone?) OpenSeaMap ist dach auch nur ein Overlay oder? Gruß Dimitri ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Tauchen
Hallo, Wäre es irgendwie möglich die ausgewählten POI-Arten also z.B. sport=diving, mit in den Permalink zu schreiben? Sei es in der Langform, also: sport=divingsport=scuba_diving oder den Value als Bitmap: sport=12 wobei dann also cycling=1, diving=2,scuba_diving=10 (jeweils hex) wäre, oder auch den Key irgendwie durchnummeriert. Derzeit müßte man ja wohl einen Link und eine Anleitung wie man die zusätzlichen POIs anzeigt angeben. Wie funktioniert die Sache mit den POIs eigentlich? Das wäre ja für meinen Kartendownloader taho auch interessant. Gruß Dimitri ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Osmarender neu zeichnen lassen
Hallo, Zoomlevel ab 12 kann man ja ganz einfach neu zechnen lassen, aber was ist mit 1-11? Z.B. sind auf: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-0.4lon=45.4zoom=5layers=0B00FTF immer noch die Seychellen etwa 1000km zu weit nach NNW wie man einfach sehen kann wenn man zwischen Osmarender und Mapnik umschaltet. Oder man fügt irgendwo Inseln ein und die erscheinen nie in den niedrigen Auflösungen,... Gruß Dimitri ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Telefone ohne Geldannahme
Mir gefaellt das mit dem Basis-telefon besser. Schonmal versucht an ner Notrufsaeule ne 0800 zu waehlen oder sich dort anrufen zu lassen. ;) Vielmehr sind alle Telefonzellen (AFAIR) SOS faehig. Walter Nordmann wrote: hi, wenn es wirklich ein telefon wäre (bin mir nicht ganz sicher aber ich hab wohl auch schon solche gesehen) ist der tag amenity=emergency_phone wohl das beste. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency_phone mfg wambacher - Erst wenn der letzte Programmierer eingesperrt... ...und die letzte Idee patentiert ist, werdet ihr merken, dass Anwälte nicht programmieren können. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] FOSSGIS/OSM-Konferenz: Anmeldung noch bis 2 6.Februar möglich
Es geht hier um Massenmails die für eine Veranstaltung innerhalb des Projektes werben zu dem sich der Benutzer selbst angemeldet hat! Derzeit gibt es den Schalter Informiere mich über Veranstaltungen noch nicht, aber ich finde, dass man den im Rahmen einer Anmeldung durchaus per default auf on schalten kann. Nur weil ich mich anmelde, will ich nicht per default aus jeder Ecke in der ich zufällig mal was mache irgendwelche Informationsmails oder Einladungen bekommen. Wenn du dich an irgendwelchen Fix Aktionen beteiligst und nicht nur auf das vor deiner Haustür konzentrierst, hast du ganz Fix sämtliche Einladungen von Lampukistan bis Wanne-Eikel im Kasten. Ist ja schön, wenn der Husumer Stammtisch an mich denkt und zur Mapping Party nach Tönning berufen möchte. Nur wird es nie passieren, das ich mich 8 Stunden in die Bummelbahn setze und dort antrete. Wenn ich wider erwarten mal die Zeit und Bock habe zu so einer Veranstaltung zu kommen, dann informiere ich mich schon selbst danach, bzw. mache aktiv ein Häkchen. Osnabrück wäre auch schon wieder aus meinem Interessenkreis raus. Vielleicht wenn man sich mal für Leipzig oder Erfurt entscheidet. Randholland ist zu weit. Gruß Mirko ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
