Re: [OSM-talk] Routing Applications
Hi, In theory competition drives functionality improvements, although in this case it's not clear if this happened. Any map based website that doesn't include a permalink option isn't worth using, Unless it's been recently added is very well hidden OSMR hasn't this option. OSRM has the option to Generate Link at the top right of the box containing the route description (i.e. quite visible in my opinion) and has had that as long as I used their service (so not too recent). It even offers to put the link into a QR code for you. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 'Allowed data'
As a result of some miss communication I stopped reading the email before the wall of text ended. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline updates
Hi, I think we have to face it: The approach of allowing the user to add anything to the map and later fix it has failed. I strongly believed in it for the longest time. But I don't any more. We have to have stronger guarantees in the data structures and more checks in editors and in the API. Remember, the coastline is one of the easier problems there. Boundaries are much more complicated. Having spent months already on this easy problem, I don't see how our limited ressources are going to solve this if we don't tackle the problem in a very different way. A first step might be to disallow upload of certain easily detected errors (e.g. self intersecting version=1 ways with coastline tags) either in the editor(s) or in the API. This is certainly not going to magically fix all coastline problems but it will lessen the workload of the advanced mappers who try to fix coastline problems. Regards, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Hi, 4. There are concerns that iD (and thus osm.org http://osm.org) will promote Facebook and Twitter, over other social networks. The problem I have with those big share buttons is not that they promote Facebook or Twitter over G+ or other sites but that the (hopefully soon default) editor promotes commercial social sites at all! Those sites to not have you or me or the mapper sharing edits as customers but large advertising networks. We are the product they sell. Featuring their logo in such a prominent way suggests that a new mapper should tweet his edit or post it to facebook to be a good member of our community. I see that as very harmful to our undertaking of liberating data and knowledge from the giants of the web to create a free and open map of the world. Pushing integration with social sites directly undermines our message of you don't have to give all your data to google to see them on a nice map. I guess I should really start a company that openly sells user data to the most evil customers that I can find and demand equal placement in iD just to prove a point. If you really want that feature in iD because you are a stupid I have nothing to hide post-privacy hipster who feels cool if he is a mayor of $somewhere in foursquare, at least hide it behind a neutral share with friends button. It don't have to be plugable or fancy, but don't give it equal footing with view on map. And no I wont stop bitching and complaining no matter if you call me caustic or harmful in private discussions. When I made remarks about the NSA doesn't have to track you, you give all your data to facebook anyway I was considered slightly nuts. Now we learned about prism. When I said I don't want to use google docs for HOT stuff I was considered nuts, but now we've seen that a 5 minute google outage reduces the internet traffic by about 40% percent. We really have to stop using the giant of the internet. And I will continue raising that point even if it makes me feel like Casandra. Despite all that I find iD a very usable editor. I wont abandon JOSM for it, but I wont hessitate to recommend iD either and I really hope that it will be the default editor soon. Just my 2 cents, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsubscribe
Hi, It is very common for a mailing list to offer the unsubscribe link in the footer. Is there a reason to not adding the link to the footer ? The list already adds a link to the listinfo page which already contains the option To unsubscribe from talk, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options ... and does set the standard List-Unsubscribe header. Any further link will not help because people are too unexperienced with mailing lists or too lazy to use the options given to them. Regars, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] is it just me
Hi, ... or does this map look like an older Texas osmarender layer screenshot plus a tilt-shift blur added? http://www.wm.com/contact-us.jsp http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=29.75507lon=-95.36237zoom=17layers=O It does. Especially the oneway arrows are quite distinct (and I remember them well because I spent hours fiddling with them prior to r12916). But to be honest I like the picture. Sure I would mind attribution but this is a fine example of how good osmarender can look. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] is it just me
Hi, ... or does this map look like an older Texas osmarender layer screenshot plus a tilt-shift blur added? http://www.wm.com/contact-us.jsp http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=29.75507lon=-95.36237zoom=17layers=O It does. Especially the oneway arrows are quite distinct (and I remember them well because I spent hours fiddling with them prior to r12916). But to be honest I like the picture. Sure I would mind attribution but this is a fine example of how good osmarender can look. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?
Hi, Am I missing something here...? People are complaining about how bogged down and slow the current service is, so its being re-written in java? Is there any language slower or more resource intensive than java? If the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one system currently, in the world), then who cares about java, why isnt it written in optimized C or some other similarly lowish level language, rather than java? You miss a whole lot in that picture. First of all openstreetmap has a really nice growth rate when it comes to mappers but we still lack developers, especially ones that create infrastructure and not nice webapps for the general public. So if one of the not-so-many developers actually finds the time and starts to improve a service that is in dire need of developer love who can dictate which tools he is to use? The current (or some would say old) XAPI is written in mumps with a GT.M key-value database. This language has quite a bit of history and it (as well as the XAPI implementation in it) have been able to keep up with openstreetmaps growth for quite a long time and have provided an invaluable data source. A while back the tiles@home clients switched away from XAPI to the newly created TRAPI read only mirrors to reduce load from simple map calls on the XAPI in the hope that this would free enough resources for the more complicated queries to the XAPI. Never the less it is no longer able to keep up with the increasing demand of I need all organic=yes nodes on london and I need it now requests. Part of the problem is a whole bunch of stupid data scraper which just use huge map calls (that the main API disallows) to XAPI instead of using TRAPI or going straight to the planet dump or extracts there of. Now given that XAPI is written in a rather exotic language other developers can not just go in and try to improve the current state of affairs and 80n is busy doing other things and I don't blame him. I know very well how much time can be gobbled up by developing for openstreetmap. This is about the situation we face end of last year / start of this year. Several developers including myself started to say if we can't improve the current XAPI we might have to rewrite it. At first we said that as a joke because we very well know how large such a task is. It needs tons of manpower to get to the point where the existing XAPI is, you need a fairly large box to handle all of the planet and you might have moments where you have to reload the database from scratch and can't develop for a whole week. At this point iandees stepped up to the task and I'm immensely glad that he did. iandees now chose java as the language of choice, a language that I personally don't like and that I questioned when he first proposed it. However he gave a couple of reasons that really convinced me: * It has to be a language that I know. Now how could I argue with that? I had been thinking about a rewrite quite some time but didn't find the time and motivation. I know how badly I would have reacted if somebody told be you can't use C so who am I to tell iandees you can't use java. You want a C version? Go write it. * It has to be a language that is spoken by a large number of developers. Now mumps was the favorite tool of 80n and it worked very well from him judging from the nice service he wrote in it. Be there aren't all that many mumps developers around, at least not in the openstreetmap ecosphere. I personally don't like java too well but at least I can read (and write if need be) it and I know a whole bunch of developers who use java. So if iandees doesn't have time for openstreetmap in 5 years or gets eaten by a grue then jXAPI wont die but others can take over and keep it running. * The third point, and this is the point that really sold be, was: If I don't do it completely wrong the real bottleneck wont be parsing the result but the speed at which I can retrieve the data from hard disk. Consequently I wont write that part myself but I will use postgis, a well-known, well-optimized piece of software that is written in C by a whole lot of people who can throw way more manpower at it then I ever could. I have to applaud him for that idea and I complete agree with his analysis that java performs sufficiently well to act as the thin glue layer between HTTP queries and the postgis backend. So far we have no real performance numbers for the new jXAPI much less a direct comparison to XAPI-mumps on the same hardware. If you want to benchmark that: Go ahead! If you ask politely we can even hand you a (anonymised!) query log to the XAPI to use as a basis for your benchmark. If you think you can write a faster alternative then postgis in C or another low-level language: Go ahead! We wont hold our breath though. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?
Hi, For simple map calls there is TRAPI[1]. As far as I know, TRAPI performs much better on map (bbox) queries than either the main-API, XAPI or ROMA (on equivalent hardware). Rather than using a database, I think it used a pre-tiled file structure, so that it simple needs to peace together a bunch of tiles, rather than do a full search in a db, which massively reduced the disk seeks necessary. You point out several points which are correct but not very well known. TRAPI exists, feeds the tiles@home clients, uses a pre-tiled structure directly in the file system and is rather fast. Not clue why it is ignored so often. I don't think XAPI is all that much better suited for map requests than the main API and imho it was rather unfortunate that the mantra has been for people getting banned from the main API for scraping to use XAPI. This just bogged down XAPI for people who actually needed its extra capabilities. Right and that is why the tiles@home clients talk to the TRAPI load balancer instead of the XAPI. But to be honest most people scraping the XAPI would be better served by using a planet dump or extract thereof instead of arduous scraping a web service, be it XAPI or TRAPI. Actually I have been thinking of creating a patch to jXAPI that answers every large map call from an IP that has recently requested several other large map calls with an empty OSM file containing a comment along the lines of hey you. don't bog down this server but grab an extract. Patrick Petschge Kilian. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is there a key for any of the major renders?
Hi, Other than the one you get by clicking Map Key on the left hand side of the map you mean? Try doing that when osmarender or the cyclemap layers are displayed Exactly - the technology is there. It just needs somebody to provide the images. Following a similar discussion in september 2009 I wrote the following email to the tah mailing list: | Ok, I just finished the shell script which generates the mapkey. | | If you are interested in the osmarender map key please have a look at: | http://www.petschge.de/osm/mapkey.tgz | The tarball contains the shellscript, the generated osm file and the | generated png files. The names of the pngfiles match the names from the | mapnik map key. A few icons (like cable.png) are missing because they | don't fit in the bounding box. I'll see what I can do there. Patches and | improvements are welcome, especially suggestions which features to | incorporate. Nothing happened after that. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Hi, Hmm, I didn't realize we did that. I thought that would count as 'tagging for the renderer' - after all wouldn't Mapnik be capable of finding both names and printing both on the map? Perhaps it could. Does the 'on the ground rule' not give guidance here? Who says that is doesn't apply? Google finds tons of images like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bruxelles-Brussel.jpg See two names on the ground. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people
Hi all, I know this first hand. Many (if not most or all) of the key people in OSM are feeling drained, distracted and upset. Some are talking of hiatus or resign. These are the key people who write code, build things, maintain things and run our working groups. I'm not sure if I (still) qualify for key people as I have woefully little time to maintain the osmarender stylesheets. Mobilemap and Tagstat, two other OSM-based projects by me, also suffer from that. But I'm certainly at a point where I'm close to stop spending time as a mapper and as a coder on OSM, because for every minute I spend on fun stuff I have to spend five minutes deleting stupid emails and discussing things over and over again. So in short: +1 from me for a code of conduct and stronger measures against trolls eating up our time. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people
Hi, While others are afraid to contribute to the discussion because of the heat. I think the Australians have a good point about the contributor terms and loss of data, but I'm not going to get involved and risk being labeled a poisonous person for agreeing with them. There is a big difference between pointing out the current form of the contributor terms means that we will loose 80% of the data in Australia. Do you really want to proceed? and jumping into every thread and spreading FUD that has been dissected and disproved several times by different people. Only one is poisonous to the project. Can you spot which? Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people
Hi, There is a big difference between pointing out the current form of the contributor terms means that we will loose 80% of the data in Australia. Do you really want to proceed? and jumping into every thread and spreading FUD that has been dissected and disproved several times by different people. Only one is poisonous to the project. Can you spot which? At least if you are going to start your own FUD get the details correct, the estimate is 1/3-1/2 no one said anything about 80%... No matter if the claim is 10% or 100% it should be made and it should be heard. Secondly no one has disproved anything, unless you count speculation as proof. I was not referring to the statement that the current contributor terms would lead to data loss in Australia when I said disproved FUD. But there has been the claim CC-BY-SA works perfectly well. If it actually works has to be tested in court. But there are enough lawyers that have told us it might very well break that the _perfectly_ part of the statement is definitely false. If it worked _perfectly_ well noone would have any doubt about the current license. Yet the statement surfaces over and over again. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people
Hi, No matter if the claim is 10% or 100% it should be made and it should be heard. Without more details about contributor intent we are left to speculate... True. But I think we both agree that it is a valid point that should be discussed and handled (hopefully in a manner to minimize data loss) in a civilized and ordered fashion. But there has been the claim CC-BY-SA works perfectly well. If it actually works has to be tested in court. But there are enough lawyers Can we get 2 of these lawyers to waste some of their time and to sue each other over this, at least that would be the end of it then one way or the other. In theory a very nice idea but you would have to repeat that about 200 times to cover all relevant jurisdictions. (I'm not going to think about the problem if we need 4 cases to test all pairs of jurisdictions.) I certainly don't want to find out in 10 years when google is on one side of the case and OSM on the other side. That's why I favor a move to a license with a better chance of survival in court. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 69, Issue 64
Hi, in looking at the maxspeed page, i see that in going from mph to km/h, rounding is always down. can someone speak to why that choice was made? If you stick to _that_ value, you are legally save. If you go at the limit calculated from round to the closest integer you might be going (slightly) too fast. So basically it avoids the old but my satnav told me so... Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Russians at it again
Hi all, judging from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:ВикиПроект_Россия/Голосования/Государственная_тайна (see http://tinyurl.com/2cx9v9h for english version) and http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=6905p=3 (see http://tinyurl.com/327ooaa) the Russian make a second attempt to regulate what can be mapped in Russia... Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering of Marinas changed
Hi all, Is there a reason why Mapnik's rendering of leisure=marina has change from a blue area to a dashed border line? IIRC there was a discussion in #osm which basically went like this: Does leisure=marina cover the land portion or the water portion of the marina hm, well don't know. wiki says it's the land part well anyway. rendering it in the color of water is bad. if it is water you don't see that it is a marina and if it is land it should be blue ah well makes sense. lets change it to a border line. that isn't confusing and opens more options when we want to start rendering tidal waters. ok lets make it a blue dashed line and see who complains. The discussion was about three week old and quoted from memory, so I might be slightly wrong. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering of Marinas changed
Hi, IIRC there was a discussion in #osm which basically went like this: Which forum do you mean by #osm? The IRC channel #osm in the oftc network. (The one mentioned in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IRC#IRC) HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering of Marinas changed
Hi all, Is there a reason why Mapnik's rendering of leisure=marina has change from a blue area to a dashed border line? IIRC there was a discussion in #osm which basically went like this: [..] ok lets make it a blue dashed line and see who complains. Count me as a complainer... I was wondering about that blue dashed line too - it does not fit well with the surrounding estuary and open sea. I'm in the process of mapping a marina and I spontaneously only tagged as a leisure=marina the water portion that is occupied by the harbour. Open a trac ticket for mapnik then. Neither Steve nor the others in that discussion had a strong opinion. Note that I didn't take part in that discussion but merely witnessed it. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
Hi all, If there is something in the Russian DB that their government wants us to remove, then we should remove it. Otherwise it could escalate to the point where they block osm.org, or even have an edit war between us and hackers employed by the KGB^H^H^H Russian Intelligence. The entities in question are not routable, nor is there any point in searching for them, so clearly it is not worth it. If we think like that, we'll have to remove all of our map data for China tomorrow. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Administrative boundaries along roads
Hi, Many of the administrative boundaries in my area follow roads (or vice versa). (E.g. http://osm.org/go/Zcll6ubE?layers=B000TTF ) It seems like the TIGER import has a separate list of nodes for the two ways (one administrative and one road), but the nodes are at identical locations. This makes Maplint and Potlatch complain about duplicated nodes, making it hard to distinguish real map lint from this type. Is the administrative boundary REALLY along the center line of the road? That would imply that one lane of the road is in on administrative area and the lane in the opposite direction belong to another administrative area. If that is really the case it sounds like a legal and administrative nightmare if the centerline ever needs to be repainted. *g* If however all of the road and the land on one side of the road belong to one administrative area and all the land on the other side to the next administrative area, then the boundary should be shifted by the width of the lane. (Which would conveniently remove the duplicate nodes). Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Freemap - OpenStreetMap for walkers (hikers) - feature ideas?
Hi, Walking isn't just about long-distance stuff. Being able to say: x is my starting point and I have [10|30|60mins|...] and I am [slow as a snail|average|running from mad mappers], please take me on a circular route that avoids busy roads, goes through nice parks, maybe goes to places people marked as good viewpoints, and accounts for me being slow uphill. If you have an algorithm which does that you should be able to add: x is my starting point and I have [10|30|60mins|...] and I am [slow as a snail|average|a mad mapper running], please take me on a circular route that covers some entries in OpenStreetBugs, preferably going along streets which have buildings tagged but no house numbers. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: [CrisisMappers] FW: I NEED SUPPLIES NOW/ Location of Functioning Hospital : OSM PIPELINE SUGGESTED !]
Hi, This is exactly the reason why I advocate reusing existing, proved, known technology : OpenStreetBugs that has already been tried in crisis situation (see wiki/Task) and which just needs a new NAME As per your request there is a dedicated OSB instance for haiti available at ose.petschge.de HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Haiti Field requirement: Haiti OSM maps in PDF
Hi all, I did another try with osmarender, as the 22 MByte OSM file I exported in parts via josm might be inconsistent somehow. So I took the larger whole-Haiti (80MByte, http://labs.geofabrik.de/haiti/2010-01-17-02-44.osm.bz2 ) file to let it render, but it took 2 Gigs of RAM and after 90 minutes the process died on my oldish machine. I use xsltproc - libxml2, no Java as XSLT backend (is this ok?) for osmarender. I just ran osmarender on the haiti dump and generated a 24MB svg file with haiti in the z17 style. Should I upload it somewhere for you? Or should I rasterize it first? Should I use another stylefile? Also, if you have any ideas, to make the PDF creation process possible on a lowtech machine, thank you for your ideas. On the box I used, it took less then 2 minutes. But it has 48 GB of RAM and isn't lowtech at all. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Haiti Field requirement: Haiti OSM maps in PDF
Hi all, I just ran osmarender on the haiti dump and generated a 24MB svg file with haiti in the z17 style. Should I upload it somewhere for you? Or should I rasterize it first? Should I use another stylefile? Hey thanks, man, this is highly appreciated! The stylesheet stuff could be good for public use, to facilitate orientation while zooming in. If you could compress that SVG with bzip2 or 7z, I would run inkscape on it, if this is possible: inkscape --export-area-drawing --export-pdf=quakeregion.pdf quakeregion.svg Have a look if the content of http://www.petschge.de/osm/haiti_osmarender/ is of any use to you. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Boundaries in Haiti
Hi all, Based on the data here : https://www.geoint-online.net/community/haitiearthquake/default.aspx of the US Census Bureau, I extracted the city and town borders for Haiti. The tags I used are : is_in=name of the district name=* boundary=administrative admin_level=8 source=US Census Bureau population=* id_commune=ID given in the source file The file is here : http://fredericbonifas.free.fr/haiti_boundaries.osm Does it seem ok to you before uploading? Looks good enough. One could of course reuse the ways with relations and stuff but it is a good start. Is there an easy to remove these boundaries if we get better ones later ? Removal is easy enough. Merging with better data would be hard. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GeoEye Haiti imagery Ok'd
Hi all, Maybe I've missed it but is there any page that's easily accessable to OSM outsiders about the Haiti mapping efforts? This page is full of info but intimidating: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti#Mapping_the_earthquake_area I'd really like to see something that looks more like a press release... I created a first stab at that at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti/Press_info HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Tagging for Haiti: Humanitarian Data Models in support of OSM tagging for Haiti EQ
Hi all, But I don't know yet how to perform mass edits to correct such typo... Can anyone do that - and tell us how it is done ? I think I've fixed it. Using http://www.petschge.de/osm/fixme_haiti/ and JOSM. No conflicts when uploading, 14xx objects changed. Looks good. Only 4 collapsed_buiding left. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] icon for veterinary
Hi, I didn't expect that my previous question would make such a great fuss. I didn't aim to hit you personally. Your email was just the straw which broke my composure. Since I now volunteered for implementing an icon for amenity=veterinary, I couldn't get my mind off the icon itself today. Hehe. I know that feeling. The approved proposal - which I now know should not have any direct influence on the renderers presentation since they are independent projects - included a paw icon that shows up at rendered-as in the green box at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Approved_features/Veterinary As user Breezer commented *after* the voting had passed, that could be misleadingly interpreted as a pet shop instead. I agree with that and would prefer a different or modified icon. Furthermore a paw is used for leisure=dog_park. For details see http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2464 Now I've got a few more questions: (practical, not technical) 1. Am I free to choose any other icon at my own decision or should I open a draft/RFC/vote in the wiki (or elsewhere) and post a few alternative icons? This is not about necessity but about organizational stuff since there was a somehow approved icon already and openstreetmap.org displays tiles on its front page, so I don't want to interfere with previous decisions. For osmarender it's pretty much pick anything that looks sensible to you. In cases where variants might be necessary later on (say barrier=*) it's good practice to pick an icon which easily and naturally extends to similar tags. 2. I personally would prefer a rod of Asclepius and a V (for veterinary). Having done some quick searches on Google and Flickr that seems to be commonly used almost worldwide (limited to the search results) as far as there are any standardized icons/signs. That would have been my choice as well. Is there a place (maybe this mailinglist should be sufficient) to ask whether that's really easy to understand for everyone? It should be for Europe and according to my searches also in the USA and Australia; but what about other countries or is that irrelevant? There are existing nodes all over the world (currently only a minority outside Europe, USA and Australia), so the same icon would show up globally as soon as the tiles are being rerendered. If an icon is understood across Europe, the USA and several other countries it is pretty much irrelevant what the other 180 countries use, EXCEPT if the tag is heavily used there. So if 2/3 of animal=rhino is used in africa it makes sense to check what icons are in use in afrika. For checking which icons are understood in different countries I mostly bug the nice people in the IRC channel. 3. My personal favorite is still the rod and the V enclosed by a red circle as used in JOSM and suggested by Ulfl. I'm unsure if that may be protected by law or registered as a trademark since it's the sign used throughout Germany at almost all vet surgeries. I would ask my government as well as the veterinary association about it by email. If it's protected we couldn't use it. If it isn't (according to these two emails) I would like to choose it as the rendering icon. Sounds good. What's the official policy of OSM, Osmarender and Mapnik concerning the use of such icons? I know that Wikipedia has the policy to either don't use them at all or the email communication has to be archived at the foundation for later legal reference. I store such email, just to cover my own ass, but never stored it centrally. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary
Hi, please not that I speak only for osmarender as other renderers are maintained by other people. The following is basically a rant. So don't get mad at me or take the following personally. rant You mapped something? great You checked the wiki for tags to model the reality with? ok You whine about the tag not beeing rendered? Not so good. To be very explicit about it: I don't like the wiki or the concept of approved tags. If I find a flying rhinoceros I'll map it as animal=rhinoceros flying=yes and won't give a damn what the wikifiddlers say. If enough flying rhinoceros' are mapped I'll add it to osmarender. The interesting part here is the enough. If I have to design an icon, write complex rules and to lots of stuff to make i render it is going to take quite a few rhinoceros' before I invest the time to make it render. If somebody designs an icon for me and all I have to do is add three lines to the stylesheet for z17, it takes way less rhinos' to make me do the work. If somebody sends me a complete patch it will take me about five odd-toed ungulates to accept that patch. (Assuming the patch doesn't try to use tomatoes=green for tagging rhinos.) As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision. Usage does but, your 835 rhinos are not yet enough to me invest my rare spare time. I currently have 106 features with more then 1000 uses which are not rendered by osmarender, 38 open trac tickets and two other projects (tagstat and mobilemap) to take care of. Oh, and don't forget my diploma thesis which is due in February. So all that is preventing the new rhino to be rendered is lack of spare time and lack of people helping. /rant Yes amenity=veterinary sounds good. Existing icons sound good too. About 1000 are even better. But don't hold your breath for this to appear on osmarender. If you really want or need it to render please do as much as possible of the following: 1.) open a trac ticket with component=osmarender 2.) include one or two link to places where it is used 3.) link to the icon file 4.) determine which zoom levels need to render this 5.) attach the icon as an SVG file 16x16 pixel in size 6.) create a patch adding the rules to all the zoomlevels from step #4 Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Highways view in OSM Inspector
Hi all, And, thinking about it a bit, I guess the proper rule is that (10, 10) - (30, 30) passes through (20, 20), since it's completely unrealistic to assume that the basic renderers will do otherwise. And this is where you are wrong. On zoomlevel 0 (one tile for the whole earth) (10,10) ends up on (135.11, 135.15) and (30,30) ends up on (149.33, 150.38). One thing that should be stand out is the fact that x!=y even for points which have lat==long. The halfway point between the two is (142.22, 142.77) while (20,20) is projected to (142.22, 142.52) or about a quarter of a pixels off. Other zoom levels or other triplets of points could expose much bigger deviations but I wanted to prove you wrong using your very own example. My understanding is that this is equivalent to say saying that the line is straight in the Mercator projection, as my understanding is that the Mercator projection represents each pixel as a fixed length and width in degrees. Nope it does not. Each pixel represents the same width in degrees, but the height in degress increases as you go away from the equator. And what that also means is that a straight line on earth which is more than a certain length is not properly represented by a way with two points. THAT depends on your definition of straight line. One thing I can't quite get my mind wrapped around is whether or not a geodesic is what we'd call a straight line on the earth. If we put a few million (?) rulers end-to-end as best we could, would that form a geodesic, and if not, what would it form? I'm fairly certain it wouldn't pass (10, 10) - (30, 30) through (20, 20), since 20 degrees of longitude does not (generally) equal 20 degrees of latitude in length. But I'm not sure if it'd be a geodesic or not. I'd love for someone to answer that question and provide a link or source to back up their answer. Well. There isn't one single definition of straight line here. We are used to the fact that straight lines are the shortest line between two points. Geodesics are the more general form of that. They connect two points in with the shortest way possible and are straight in that sense. One a flat surface geodesics are just straight lines. One a sphere the are segments of great circles. If your metric gets more complicated geodesics get more complicated too. On the other hand we are used to the fact that a straight line always intersects lines which are parallel to the y-axis at a constant angle. This is not (necessarily) true for geodesics. The compass heading along the great circle route from (10,10) to (30,30) is NOT going to be NE all the time! So in that sense geodesics are NOT straight. A line which follow a constant heading is called a loxodrome. As you can see now geodesics and loxodromes are two different lines which both might be considered straight by some definition. There are other definitions of straightness and straight lines which are defined by them. In a flat plane they all coincide, but for a sphere or our not-quite-spherical earth the don't. So don't stop assuming that is a simple topic, everybody was just a lazy bum or that you know it all (tm). HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New Highways view in OSM Inspector
Hi, THAT depends on your definition of straight line. I suppose, but it'd have to be a pretty contrived definition of straight line to be equivalent to Spherical Mercator, would it not? I think that line that are straight in mercator projections are loxodroms. But I'm not 100% sure about that. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM rewriting history : France is now part of Germany !
Hi, I think that there was someone on IRC a while ago pointing out the name of a natural reserve on the South African mainland which was rendered way out west on the water. This happens with postcode boundaries too, due to the irregular shape the name renders outside of them some times. Does anybody here know a reasonably fast algorithm which finds the center of the (largest) incircle of a polygon? And would you find that a suitable stop for the label of the polygon? I tried to play around with that idea but couldn't come up with an algorithm to find that point efficiently in the general case. Furthermore I'm not totally sure if it really is the optimal place for the label as the label itself is not circular but much wider then the vertical extend. It might trigger a smart idea for automatic label placement in somebody, so I decided to share the idea. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Ticket on trac fixed properly ???
Hi, Someone fixed my request to render leisure=dog_park on osmarender, but neither the node nor the areas are visible on the map. The someone was me. It most likly doesn't appear yet because most clients haven't updated yet. My suggested icon attached with the ticket, was for the nodes (POI) and for an area i suggested a pattern with a green park like, and dog icons inside. You should get something like your icon (in one quarter the file size) for the POI and at the center of the area plus a green area. Do you think the changeset was done properly? http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/18948 Looks fine to me. What exactly do you consider broken? ps: tried to render, on my pc with xmlstarlet and the new rules, a map area with a dog_park area; but nothing appeared. i searched for a guide on the wiki, but there is a lack of informations about symbols as patterns in areas http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmarender/Symbols#Symbols_as_patterns_in_areas Short version: pattern are damned hard to get right. Most likly it's not worth the effort. Oh and by the way: You could have reopened the tiket instead of annoying everybody on the talk list. You behaviour makes me question my decision to implement your feature request. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started
Hi all, I live in the United States. I can do whatever the heck I want with the OSM database. Now you want me to agree to a contract limiting those rights. So I'll ask again: What's in it for me? My data. The streets I mapped. The trails I mapped. The POIs I mapped. The Indonesian islands I traced from aerial imagery. All that and all the data I'm going to add. For free and in my spare time and with the assumptions that I would get credit for it. Not personally but in the form of this dataset was collected by the collaborators of the OSM project. If the copyright law in you're place allows you to take my data and use it with out attributing me and my fellow mappers I consider it broken. And if the copyright law was that broken in the whole world I would never have invested as much time as I have. Nearly all of my data doesn't concern the US and is totally uninteresting to you. Which I consider a good thing. Because I sure as hell don't want to help somebody who has the attitude I can use the data no matter who collected it and how much effort is was. It's just facts. Oh and by the way: I'm not totally convinced that ODbL is great or the right move. I want a open (as in go and do incredible cool stuff with the data I collected), free (as in collecting the data was fun, no need to pay me) license with a attribution clause (forcing you to say btw, the base data was collected by the diligent contributors of OSM). When I joined up, I though that CC-BY-SA did that. Talking to people knowledgeable in matters of law and copyright I learn that this is not the case _in_ _countries_ _like_ _yours_. And as I don't want to hand my data to people with your attitude I see a clear need to relicense, not matter how difficult and painful. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Announce] OSMF license change vote has started
I live in the United States. I can do whatever the heck I want with the OSM database. Now you want me to agree to a contract limiting those rights. So I'll ask again: What's in it for me? My data. The streets I mapped. The trails I mapped. The POIs I mapped. The Indonesian islands I traced from aerial imagery. All that and all the data I'm going to add. For free and in my spare time and with the assumptions that I would get credit for it. Not personally but in the form of this dataset was collected by the collaborators of the OSM project. Well, first of all, that's not your data. That's data, which you happened to discover. Just because you discovered something doesn't mean you own it. Sure it is. If I learn something, I own my knowledge and my description of it. I don't own the street or might not be able to distribute my knowledge if my source is there are restrictions on my source. And sure enough somebody else could have come up with his or her own valid description of the real world which they would own. But they didn't. So it's MY DATA. (And I don't take it kindly if somebody tries to take it away from me.) Secondly, Nearly all of my data doesn't concern the US and is totally uninteresting to you. So I ask again, what's in it for me? The mappers in the US who feel like me but haven't spoken up (yet). If the copyright law in you're place allows you to take my data and use it with out attributing me and my fellow mappers I consider it broken. And if the copyright law was that broken in the whole world I would never have invested as much time as I have. And I say the opposite. If the copyright law was so broken that one had to keep a chain of attribution every time one learned of a fact, I would have never been interested in OSM in the first place. So we map for different reason, fine. But that doesn't give you the right to circumvent the license terms on MY DATA. And to stop you from doing that I want to switch away from the broken CC-BY-SA license. One big problem, and the biggest change I can find from CC-BY-SA, is 4.6 Access to Derivative Databases. Sure, some will claim that it's a feature that I can't print out maps which mix OSM data and non-OSM data without offer[ing] to recipients of the [...] Produced Work a copy in a machine readable form of [...] A file containing all of the alterations made to the Database or the method of making the alterations to the Database (such as an algorithm), including any additional Contents, that make up all the differences between the Database and the Derivative Database. Why? Actually, I was planning on doing exactly this with a map of my office on the back of my business card. I'm not about to start handing out CDs along with my business cards. You don't have to. But if I ask how you created your nice business cards I would really appreciate a short answer in the form of I used software $foo and elevation data from source $bar to generate the hillshading. The other big problem is that I just don't have the time or money to figure out *exactly* what the ODbL means. And Open Data Commons is just not anyone I've ever heard of (and Creative Commons, who *is* someone I've heard of, and respect the legal opinion of, has torn apart the ODbL). For somebody without time or knowledge you sure are very loud And Creative Commons didn't tear OBbL but said CC-BY-SA doesn't apply to data just use CC0 and you are fine. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue
Hi all, Just to bring to the group's notice. I added a few mountain passes a couple of days ago along with the hiking trails and waypoints When I now check on OSM, while the trails are there along with the waypoints, the passes are missing. However, when I download data from OSM using JOSM, I can see the passes along with the elevations. Any clue whats the reason for not displaying on the renderer? Except for JOSM, I currently don't know any renderer that displays mountain_pass=yes at all (if there's any, please let us know :-) As of revision 18423 osmarender (the renderer used by ti...@home) does too. It even renders name and ele(vation) if available. Problem here: JOSM simply displays a bridge like icon, but doesn't care about the direction (north, south, ...). Osmarender does the same for single nodes... A correct renderer should display a mountain pass somehow like a bridge usually is displayed, following the direction of the way. ... but aligns the icon along the way if the way is tagged with a track or highway tag. This is implemented with a wayMarker rule as mentioned by Dodi and uses a symbol very similar to the one mentioned by Ulfl. As the mountain_pass is tagged as a node, it's unfortunately not that easy to get that direction, so renderers simply tend to ignore this tag completely :-( Once a significant amount of the nodes without a way attached have a tag indicating direction I can add that to osmarender as well. HTH, ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Instead of voting
Hi, What exactly, in your opinion, should the talk list be used for exactly, now that everything has been branched off to it's own list? From a quick scan through the last couple of months, perhaps stuff like: feeds, Software Freedom Day, GPS in planes, 35 servers from Wikimedia Foundation, persistence of ids, mugs, a campaign about Google imagery, the Economist, Monopoly, the evolution of a map through time, a countryside mapping tool, cartography, relations vs superways, what to map first, OpenStreetView, getting field data, Poland, our own satellite, translations, definitive maps, iPhones, coastline quality, the amount of water on the planet, adjoining geometries, EGNOS, funny posters, what blocks mean, maps for the blind, WMS, national boundaries, the site title bar, national websites, expanding the API, Bing, spam, Panogate, automatic simplification, GPS accuracy, search engines indexing OSM, Local Chapters update, RC helicopters, multipolygon rendering, meeting minutes, video surveying, historic mapping, duplicate ways, and Twitter. In short everything that is interesting to the general OSM community but not long-winded enough to warrant a separate list. Is that so hard to grasp, John? Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] fine line style for osmarender
Hi, I need any style file for osmarender (osmarender.xsl) by walkin-papers.org print style or fine-line style from cloudmade. I suspect that both use mapnik and not osmarender for rendering the map. The stylefiles are not compatible between the two renderers. Therefore I fear you have to either use mapnik or write your own stylesheet for osmarender. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Announcement] Support added for route waypoints in YOURS
Hi all, Hereby I would like to announce that YOURS now has the capability to use the long awaited via points (waypoints) in a route. The code for this feature has been contributed by Philip Homburg. Web design is still rather crude, but that will hopefully improve over time. Very cool feature. But I do have a small nitpick: it looks like you can't drop a waypoint... Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] NHD Dataset
Hi all, Mapnik already support this,see: http://openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/24849/ But production osmarender not yet: http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.6758lon=15.9996zoom=12layers=0B00FTF What's the problem with osmarender patch? The problem is that neither bobkare nor I really can review the patch. It is attached to http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1435. If Frederik or someone else with enough time and knowledge of perl and osmarender tells me looks good to me I'll apply it. If somebody else with svn access wants to apply it without review fine with me too. I just don't want to break everthing by applying a patch I don't understand. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-ca] [OSM-talk] Curling icons for OSM
Hi, The sport of curling has been ignored by OSM for too long. I've made a set of icons for curling rinks. k:sport; v:curling can now have the dignity it deserves. http://weait.com/content/curling-icon Would somebody please commit these to svn? Commited to osmarender as r13685. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] NHD Dataset
Hi all, Mapnik already support this,see: http://openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/24849/ But production osmarender not yet: http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.6758lon=15.9996zoom=12layers=0B00FTF What's the problem with osmarender patch? The problem is that neither bobkare nor I really can review the patch. It is attached to http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1435. If Frederik or someone else with enough time and knowledge of perl and osmarender tells me looks good to me I'll apply it. If somebody else with svn access wants to apply it without review fine with me too. I just don't want to break everthing by applying a patch I don't understand. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Curling icons for OSM
Hi, The sport of curling has been ignored by OSM for too long. I've made a set of icons for curling rinks. k:sport; v:curling can now have the dignity it deserves. http://weait.com/content/curling-icon Would somebody please commit these to svn? Commited to osmarender as r13685. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Boundaries broken on t...@h?
Hi, The last days the administrative boundaries have been disappearing and re-appearing on the t...@h tiles on new renderings, and now it seems like they're not re-appearing anymore. Can this be looked into? This in an intentional change in the stylesheets for some zoom levels. Please have a look at either http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1332 or the message titled New border rendering based on admin_level on the tilesathome mailing list. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetBugs - open or not?
Hi, I think its worth beeing included on the main page - Probably it would be a good idea to make it more open, put the code into svn, make the database schemas visible so that we do not depend on a single person. Has there been any development on this or is OSB still just as closed? AFAIK it is still as closed as before, but my mobile map at http://www.petschge.de/projekte/mobilemap/ interfaces with it. I just looked at the javascript code and some packet dump of traffic between browser and OSb server. Turned out that the format of the requests if pretty much straight forward. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)
Hi, It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla. I'm not a big developer, but I do try to improve the OSM software stack (mostly [EMAIL PROTECTED] client and maplint) and I get to own all the osmarender bugs in trac. From that perspective I have to say that I really dislike bugzilla and that I was really glad when I found out that OSM uses trac for its bugtracking. Unless we find a REALLY compelling reason to switch I'd stay with trac. I'd rather have a seperated bugzilla for tracking bugs in the data and a trac for tracking bugs in the software. At that point I should probably add that it would be a good thing if we could migrate all the user databases to one single location and do authentication against that. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki map features
Hi, We should stop the game now. All the people who like the Map Features page should say something about this edit war even if they don't care about smoothness. I really feel disappointed. Agreed. It needs to stop, people need to discuss the issue here instead. Is the feature used? Then, let it stand until discussed. Can the people who enable it and revert it *please* speak up here instead? It totally agree that it has to stop. I don't even care about the tag. But the way ChristCF changes the page breaks the rebuilt of maplint. And since I'm working on maplint that is a very bad thing. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] TIGER - new maplint test
Hi all, I just implemented a new maplint test to check for tiger:reviewed=no tags. Currently it would generate notices (shown in yellow) because lots of objects are going to be highlighted by this test and I don't want to obscure other warnings. The new test can be seen at http://www.petschge.de/osm/maplint/maplint-tiger.patch and is not in the svn yet. Are there any good reasons not to commit that test? Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-us] TIGER - new maplint test
Hi all, I just implemented a new maplint test to check for tiger:reviewed=no tags. Currently it would generate notices (shown in yellow) because lots of objects are going to be highlighted by this test and I don't want to obscure other warnings. The new test can be seen at http://www.petschge.de/osm/maplint/maplint-tiger.patch and is not in the svn yet. Are there any good reasons not to commit that test? Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi all, As of revison 12060 maplint supports noname=yes for residential roads and POIs as well as validate:empty-tag-value validate:bridge-or-tunnel-without-layer validate:motorway-without-ref validate:place-of-worship-without-religion validate:poi-without-name validate:residential-without-name to disable specific tests. If other variants (like unnamed=yes) or other namespaces for annotations (like the internal namespace) show up prominently enough I'll update maplint again to support those tags too. Please not that maplint does _not_ support a validate=ignore tag to disable all tests, as this would probably be used way too much... Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, to disable specific tests. If other variants (like unnamed=yes) or other namespaces for annotations (like the internal namespace) show up prominently enough I'll update maplint again to support those tags too. I think, we, as validation tools developpers/maintainer, have a risponsability on the usage of users that we should handle with care. The fact that maplint, or even my validator tool, makes use of several different tags for the same purpose will inevitably lead to confusion into the DB (and users mind) : Having different tags for the same meaning is IMHO a very bad idea I agree, but... For instance, the fact that maplint supports noname=yes and the validation: namespace and maybe one day the internal: namespace I've proposed is bad. noname and validate are not really the same thing. noname say that something does not have a name. The validate namespace is a lot more universal in its goal. It aims to create a namespace for the selective disabling of all possible valiation tests. The more is not the best. Of course not. I certainly don't want to support every possible tag for this does not have a name. But only the most common one(s). And I would prefere that they drop out of discussion instead of being created in the wild and then show their bad aspects too late after many have used them. At least for the noname case the discussion has been going on for quite some time and now consensus was reached. And so I went with the age old pardigm of crowd sourcing Just do it. are there anywhere I didn't found where validation: is documented ? It's documented on in the commit message and the announcement on this list. It has not been documented in the wiki yet a) because I had other things to do and b) because I expect that it would get deleted immediately by some wiki gardener anyway because I didn't wait for votes first. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, noname and validate are not really the same thing. noname say that something does not have a name. The validate namespace is a lot more universal in its goal. Exact, but I was making a comparisson between * higwhay=residential * noname=yes and * higwhay=residential * validate:residential-without-name and * higwhay=residential * internal=noname what are the difference between those three ? From my point of view internal=noname and noname=yes both tell me that the street has no name. validate:residential-without-name=ignore tell's the validator not to highlight the fact that there is no name. That's what I don't like in the validate: namespace An object having no name is a bit more than just disabling all validation tests it's also an information in it's own, and I prefere proposition key that carry this information and validation tools taking action based on this information. Where it is possible I prefer keys that carry information too. So in this case I'd tag stuff with noname=yes (or possibly internal=noname). But I want a _consistent_ way to do that for _all_ of the different checks. Therefore there is a validate:residential-without-name=ignore too, analogous to validate:bridge-or-tunnel-without-layer=ignore. ( Maybe those discussions might better fit on the wiki's validate proposal, if you don't mind using the wiki for that ) Actually I'd prefer the mailing list. At least for the noname case the discussion has been going on for quite some time and now consensus was reached. did you said now ?? Well, the w might be wrong there, no, I don't see a consensus here, neither a complete proposal, neither a vote on it, so maybe it's time to say ok we now need to agree, but the noname page is a global page with many schema of wich I don't know wich to use Sorry. That w was a very bad typo. I'm not believing that there is ever going to be something like consensus, so I just went and implemented one sensible solution. If another tag emerges as consensus it's easy to replace noname=yes with that. (Way easier that to find out about maplint by yourself.) And so I went with the age old pardigm of crowd sourcing Just do it. So, let's break with this paradigm and make it : propose it - do it - re-talk about it - change it - put it on the map feature - re-do it With that attidute we'd still have blank map and would be discussing if it should be highway, way or street. because the first do it has at least been done by you and me, but not based on the same keys, and that's bad Yeah. It didn't work out this time. It's documented on in the commit message and the announcement on this list. Could you please point me to the commit message ? are there anyway I can raise comment against it ? will that be deleted by commit gardeners ? On that list I just saw your message saying It is working like this but not why is it working like this The commit message is in svn or at http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/12060 because I expect that it would get deleted immediately by some wiki gardener anyway because I didn't wait for votes first. Then I would immediatly undo any deletation of that kind, it has to be explicit, it has to be thought of, I would raise comment on it, we would probably agree on some things, and then we would both implement the same keys and save anyone pain. That would end in an edit war, I neither want nor have time for. Looks you are an against wiki guy, while I'am a for discussion guy, and because the wiki is the only thing I know of public enough, I'm using it. This talk list is too hard to be usable by newcommers. The problem is that the wiki is not dokumenting reality but what some people would want to be reality. As a dinosaur I find mailing list much more comfortable than wikis. Wikis I have to poll an search through. Mailing list tell me when something new happens. And the tools for handling many changes (say 100-200 mails per day) are so much better than the stuff a wiki has to offer. But If you'r still against the wiki, I'have no problem continuing this discussion just right here, but fear we are bothering others. We could id either discuss offlist, or hope that grown up people use grown up software and can tell their mail client to silently ignore this thread. Let's start talking about : validate:residential-without-name why restrict that to residential ?, what about : validate:noname ? Because it is a single test in maplint. For the case of unnamed POIs there is validate:poi-without-name=ignore. (Which is also shut up by noname=yes) Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, Patrick Kilian wrote: validate:empty-tag-key validate:empty-tag-value validate:untagged-way validate:bridge-or-tunnel-without-layer validate:deprecated-tags validate:motorway-without-ref validate:place-of-worship-without-religion validate:poi-without-name validate:residential-without-name This one's really common - can we please have a shorter name? E.g. validate:no-name? After all, there's no need for it to be just used on residential roads. That's a property of the test, not the tag. We could. And I was really hoping for good suggestions for better names. But I didn't want to sit for hours meditation about better names... Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, From my point of view internal=noname and noname=yes both tell me that the street has no name. validate:residential-without-name=ignore tell's the validator not to highlight the fact that there is no name. Then we have the same definition. Good. But I want a _consistent_ way to do that for _all_ of the different checks. 100 percent with you there, that's probably why we came both of us to : validate: and internal: Yeah. Seems like that idea was somehow in the air. Therefore there is a validate:residential-without-name=ignore too, analogous to validate:bridge-or-tunnel-without-layer=ignore. Mmmm ? I see a bit of your point but unclear. Do you mean that you want a general tag system that would, for any tag that you still don't know, trigger an alert or stop an alert ? is your -without-layer -without-name a key word in your programming that is re-used in many place ? Does if I tag validate:peak-without-name=ignore will stop an alert in maplint without you doing anything ? No. I just implemented one switch per test in maplint. The test which are currenty defined can be seen at http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/utils/maplint/tests I'm not believing that there is ever going to be something like consensus, so I just went and implemented one sensible solution. What if your solution is not that good ?, isn't it worth trying to reach a consensus ? don't you think in the end the tool makes the use ? especialy for such type of tags ? If my solution isn't good it's not going to be used... I fear we just have here what I would call the attribution fear what would you say about : - I create a proposition in your name - I use the validate: namespace - I correct some well... hem most? of it's values to cover your/my needs - I do all the blabla and voting stuff - I show you the result so you don't need to spend time on the wiki - we both correct our tools to use it - we stop covering other tags usage (yes it sounds like un-democratic, but if we don't, many tags will still be used for the same thing if they are usable in a validation tool) - we got our consensus If you can spend the time to find good names for the individual option (and merge say residential-without-name and poi-without-name to noname) and do all the stuff in the wiki, I'm certainly not opposed to change the naming in maplint. If we can reach consensus in this way and have tags which are not only valid for maplint but for your renderer too, that be really good. If another tag emerges as consensus it's easy to replace noname=yes with that. Even if we have thousand noname=yes, thousand of internal=noname, thousand of validation=noname in the DB ? not so sure... If it is that scatter? No. But if we had a couple hundreds noname=yes and tenthousands of $whatever? With that attidute we'd still have blank map and would be discussing if it should be highway, way or street. Come on ;-) I didn't say that attitude is need for the whole programming world, I say we have a chance, right now, in 1 day, to reach a trade-off, not so bad consensus by spotting problems and make it work. Sure. If we can find a quick an down-to-earth consensus within the next couple of days, I'm all for the necessary changes. I just don't want to get caught in months of discussion, voting and board meetings. As a dinosaur I find mailing list much more comfortable than wikis. no problems ! I'll copy my end page on the validate: namespace in the talk list if you allow me to. Sure. Go ahead. why restrict that to residential ?, what about : validate:noname ? Because it is a single test in maplint. For the case of unnamed POIs there is validate:poi-without-name=ignore. (Which is also shut up by noname=yes) What do you think of * validate:noname=yes and * validate:no_sign_name=yes OR * validate:name=noname and * validate:name=no_sign_name (looks familiar eh ?) I prefer the second because it makes a street having no name and having no sign with a name impossible. ( If find them exclusives, since if there is no name, there can't be a name sign, or else there is an error) But if some people thing it should be possible, then I'll propose the first I'd go for validate:noname as a key and yes, ignore, nosign as valid values. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, If you can spend the time to find good names for the individual option (and merge say residential-without-name and poi-without-name to noname) and do all the stuff in the wiki, I'm certainly not opposed to change the naming in maplint. If we can reach consensus in this way and have tags which are not only valid for maplint but for your renderer too, that be really good. Then I am on my way, even if we don't reach the consensus voting number stuff, if we, as validators maintainers, reach a consensus, I'll say we have 50% won. I agree. It would be even better if other validator maintainers speak up now so that we can account for their needs too. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, I prefer the second because it makes a street having no name and having no sign with a name impossible. ( If find them exclusives, since if there is no name, there can't be a name sign, or else there is an error) But if some people thing it should be possible, then I'll propose the first I'd go for validate:noname as a key and yes, ignore, nosign as valid values. And nosign would not suppress the error but downgrade it to warning / another color (or possibly a dashed orange line). That way people know that there is an unnamed street but that a detour to looks for street signs is pointless. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi all, I want to propose a technically clean way to deal with unnamed streets and other false positives of the maplint checks. The patch at http://www.petschge.de/osm/ignore-tags/maplint.patch modifies the maplint checks to suppress the warning / error if a tag with validate:$testname=ignore is present on the object. For a street which does not have a name (for whatever reason) one would you k=validate:residential-without-name v=ignore. The following new tags are recognized by maplint using this patch: validate:empty-tag-key validate:empty-tag-value validate:untagged-way validate:bridge-or-tunnel-without-layer validate:deprecated-tags validate:motorway-without-ref validate:place-of-worship-without-religion validate:poi-without-name validate:residential-without-name validate A tag of k=validate v=ignore would disable ALL checks in maplint for this object. This should only be used if no other more specific tag work. Please note that the patch file is large than strictly necessary because it contains the changes to tests.xml and tests.xsl which are auto-generated from the individual (changed) test files. Please also note that the mapfeatures page in the wiki would have to be extended with an validator key category containing the keys listed above. Otherwise maplint is going to complain about the fact that those keys are not in mapfeatures. Technical feedback from the developers of other validation tools is welcome. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] POI layer for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi all, in the last couple if days the discussion of a POI layer appeared again. With the new server we should have enough disk space to store such a layer and I'm willing to resurrect the old stylesheets / create new stylesheets for that layer. But since I'm not scratching my own itch here I have a problem: What do we want that layer to be? It looks to me that most people want more flexibility than a single POI layer can reasonably provide. So I guess the idea of a fixed POI layer should be buried. I'll make myself useful in other ways. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi, Whoops, looks like we are working on the same thing, with same goal and almost the same method Looks like you want to formalize the note=* thing a bit. Which is a good think. I guess the patch could be expanded to not expect a name for internal:noname=yes. Alternativly you could exclude the noname issue from the internal:-namespace and say ok, we don't need a note there, we have a specialized tag for that. Obviously I would prefer the later... If your validator would respect the tags in the validate:-namespace that would be very cool. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags
Hi all, see http://www.petschge.de/osm/ignore-tags/noname.patch for a dead simple non-extensible alternative which only supports noname=yes. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] gpsbasecamp.com
Hi, Can data from GPS base camp (gpsbasecamp.com) be used in OSM? It might be technically possible, but it is most likely illegal. The site has state and national park data formatted in GPX XML. Would be nice to have those, but the people who uploaded their files to gpsbasecamp.com only made them available only to that site and for personal use. They did't grant anybody the right to make maps from their traces. Does that mean that it can be opened in GPSBabel or directly in JOSM. Both can handle data in GPX format. So far I haven't been able to get them to work in either. Which is a good thing in that case... Perhaps you could identity the top contributors of gpsbasecamp.com and ask them to make their traces available to OSM too. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Many roads missing
Hi, What would cause these roads not to render? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.9455lon=-87.7344zoom=13layers=0B00FTF That one looks a lot like the missing stripes bug. That bug should have been fixed by Dirk Stöcker on 21.10. Either the bug is not totally gone, or the person who rendered that tile has not updated yet. HTH, Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Spam in OSM diary :-(
Hi, http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Ickogg/diary/3606 Hope this isn't the start of something messy :-( Unfortunately there is more: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/fresnikors/diary/3603 Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [patch] correct icons for graveyards
Hello, I decided to give the correct display of religious symbols a shot. As a first step I created icons for the graveyards of the different religions and to extend the osm.xml file. The png icons were generated from higher resolutions bitmap files (sorry no svg (at least not yet)) which I can provide. Also attached is the osm file which I use for testing. The bounding box to render the file is ll = (9.833, 49.780, 9.846, 49.790). The resulting png is too big for this list and can be seen at http://www.petschge.de/image.png Patrick Petschge Kilian graveyards.tgz Description: application/compressed-tar --- osm-template.xml 2008-08-26 11:46:25.0 +0200 +++ osm-template-extended.xml 2008-08-28 09:51:43.0 +0200 @@ -363,10 +363,57 @@ /PolygonSymbolizer /Rule - Rule +!-- still a christian symbol. is that generic enough? -- +Rule MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery'/Filter - PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/grave_yard.png type=png width=16 height=16/ + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_generic.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +!-- for those we have correct symbols -- +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'bahai'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_bahai.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'buddhist'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_buddhist.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'christian'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_christian.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'hindu'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_hindu.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'jewish'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_jewish.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'muslim'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_muslim.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'pastafarian'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_pastafarian.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'sikh'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_sikh.png type=png width=16 height=16/ +/Rule +Rule + MaxScaleDenominator5/MaxScaleDenominator + Filter[landuse] = 'cemetery' and [religion] = 'taoist'/Filter + PolygonPatternSymbolizer file=%SYMBOLS_DIR%/graveyard_taoist.png type=png width=16 height=16/ /Rule Rule ?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'? osm version=0.5 generator=Osmosis 0.24.1-java5 !-- Zeile 1 -- node id=1 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:01Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.834/ node id=2 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:02Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.834/ node id=3 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:03Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.836/ node id=4 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:04Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.836/ node id=5 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:05Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.837/ node id=6 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:06Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.837/ node id=7 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:07Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.839/ node id=8 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:08Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.839/ node id=9 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:09Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.840/ node id=10 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:10Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.840/ node id=11 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:11Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.842/ node id=12 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:12Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.842/ node id=13 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:13Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.843/ node id=14 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:14Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.843/ node id=15 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:15Z user=petschge lat=49.787 lon=9.845/ node id=16 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:16Z user=petschge lat=49.789 lon=9.845/ !-- Zeile 2 -- node id=17 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:17Z user=petschge lat=49.786 lon=9.834/ node id=18 timestamp=2008-08-27T07:00:18Z user=petschge lat=49.784
