Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

You're absolutely right! The devil is in the detail.

By the way, I've made a start in Epping, which is a suburb I am familiar with. 
I've posted about it in the imports mailing list, so I look forward to comments 
on it there!

For those who aren't subscribed to the imports mailing list, here is a link to 
the message online:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2018-July/005554.html

​Dion Moult​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On June 20, 2018 9:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20/06/18 20:50, Dion Moult wrote:
> 
> > So I get the impression that everybody on this list seems pretty cool with 
> > the approach of using this script to aid in ensuring that the points 
> > entered in JOSM have good coordinates and have correct addresses to the 
> > best knowledge of the armchair mapper. It clearly isn't a waterfall import. 
> > If there are no more objections, on Friday I'll send an email to the 
> > imports mailing list describing the approach. Given that the script can be 
> > run by anyone and is not part of a bulk import that is done by a single 
> > user, I agree that we need some way to connote the source. However instead 
> > of a tag, why don't we just add a `source:import=NSW LPI Web Services` to 
> > the changeset? That way anybody seeing the history will know.
> > 
> > Given that there are 3.8 million addresses in total in NSW, assuming it 
> > took 1 second for somebody to add an address, it would take 440 days of 
> > non-stop work to add every single address. This is not exactly an exciting 
> > task! We can probably cover the city and immediate suburbs relatively 
> > quickly, but maybe it is worthwhile investigating the bulk import a bit 
> > more. Perhaps once Andrew Harvey finishes his work on openaddresses, we can 
> > use that data dump and follow the New Zealand approach of importing bit by 
> > bit - we can divide the dataset into an alphabetical list of suburbs, and 
> > then treat each suburb's import separately.
> > 
> > Ideas?
> 
> All sounds fine. The devil is in the detail.
> 
> I'd chose a suburb you are familiar with and do that .. even just a part of 
> it and see what happens.
> 
> And yes it is not exciting, and very time consuming. However it is usefull.
> 
> Once it is proven then I'd target those areas of most demand ... the CBDs of 
> major centres, tourist areas, hotels, shopping centres etc. That will get 
> most people happy most of the time.
> 
> The low use bits .. well that will take quite some time.
> 
> Most of the roads are now entered, so finding freds house in a street won't 
> be too hard once you have found that street - traffic should be light. So I 
> don't see that as a high priority.
> 
> I think 1 second per address is optimistic.
> 
> And people will get sick of it. So there will be a sporadic participation 
> rate. Could be wrong.
> 
> > ​Dion Moult​
> > 
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > 
> > On June 18, 2018 9:23 PM, Dion Moult  wrote:
> > 
> > > On June 18, 2018 8:56 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks Andrew for your reply!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to 
> > > > > > the import guidelines below:
> > > > > 
> > > > > First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way 
> > > > > should have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify 
> > > > > which changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW 
> > > > > Base Map). Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.
> > > > 
> > > > source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?
> > > 
> > > Sure thing, I would be happy to if that is the appropriate thing to do :)
> > > 
> > > > > I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like 
> > > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N,
> > > > >  could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd do 
> > > > > it as a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you want 
> > > > > two nodes inside the building for 11A and 11B.
> > > > 
> > > > I have had separate buildings for A and B - share a common wall. In 
> > > > some instances I have 11 then 11A .. but no B.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the advice! I've fixed it to use two nodes. However, please 
> > > note that that particular building was not mapped as part of my import 
> > > script proposal. That was mapped previously by me completely manually. If 
> > > I had used the import script it would have created two nodes, one for 11A 
> > > and one for 11B.
> > > 
> > > > > While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first pass, 
> > > > > eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think it's better 
> > > > > to use addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18. 
> > > 
> > > Thanks :) I was wondering what was a better way of 

Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Warin]

On 20/06/18 20:50, Dion Moult wrote:
So I get the impression that everybody on this list seems pretty cool 
with the approach of using this script to aid in ensuring that the 
points entered in JOSM have good coordinates and have correct 
addresses to the best knowledge of the armchair mapper. It clearly 
isn't a waterfall import. If there are no more objections, on Friday 
I'll send an email to the imports mailing list describing the 
approach. Given that the script can be run by anyone and is not part 
of a bulk import that is done by a single user, I agree that we need 
some way to connote the source. However instead of a tag, why don't we 
just add a `source:import=NSW LPI Web Services` to the changeset? That 
way anybody seeing the history will know.


Given that there are 3.8 million addresses in total in NSW, assuming 
it took 1 second for somebody to add an address, it would take 440 
days of non-stop work to add every single address. This is not exactly 
an exciting task! We can probably cover the city and immediate suburbs 
relatively quickly, but maybe it is worthwhile investigating the bulk 
import a bit more. Perhaps once Andrew Harvey finishes his work on 
openaddresses, we can use that data dump and follow the New Zealand 
approach of importing bit by bit - we can divide the dataset into an 
alphabetical list of suburbs, and then treat each suburb's import 
separately.


Ideas?


All sounds fine. The devil is in the detail.

I'd chose a suburb you are familiar with and do that .. even just a part 
of it and see what happens.


And yes it is not exciting, and very time consuming. However it is usefull.
Once it is proven then I'd target those areas of most demand ... the 
CBDs of major centres, tourist areas, hotels, shopping centres etc. That 
will get most people happy most of the time.


The low use bits .. well that will take quite some time.
Most of the roads are now entered, so finding freds house in a street 
won't be too hard once you have found that street - traffic should be 
light. So I don't see that as a high priority.


I think 1 second per address is optimistic.
And people will get sick of it. So there will be a sporadic 
participation rate. Could be wrong.





Dion Moult


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 18, 2018 9:23 PM, Dion Moult  wrote:


On June 18, 2018 8:56 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult > wrote:


Thanks Andrew for your reply!

1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses
to the import guidelines below:


First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way 
should have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify 
which changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW 
Base Map). Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.


source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?


Sure thing, I would be happy to if that is the appropriate thing to 
do :)





I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N, 
could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd 
do it as a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you 
want two nodes inside the building for 11A and 11B.
I have had separate buildings for A and B - share a common wall. In 
some instances I have 11 then 11A .. but no B.


Thanks for the advice! I've fixed it to use two nodes. However, 
please note that that particular building was not mapped as part of 
my import script proposal. That was mapped previously by me 
completely manually. If I had used the import script it would have 
created two nodes, one for 11A and one for 11B.




While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first 
pass, eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think 
it's better to use addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18.


Thanks :) I was wondering what was a better way of doing that. Fixed 
:) Again as above this was mapped manually by me and not using the 
script.




 1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I
will only import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single
node.


What are you planning on doing where the address in already in OSM? 
I think in this case we should just not import that point and leave 
the existing OSM addresses.
Depends .. I have come across addresses that were out of sequence. 
Contacted the still active mapper (moved to Germany) and had not 
response .. after some months I have simple deleted them.
So it is worth checking that the new data is is not 'better' than 
the present OSM data.


With my proposal of a semi-automated approach, every single new 
address will have to be explicitly decided upon by a human mapper. A 
human mapper can decide when to import the point if the existing data 
look bad (based off the LPI Base Map raster background) 

Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

So I get the impression that everybody on this list seems pretty cool with the 
approach of using this script to aid in ensuring that the points entered in 
JOSM have good coordinates and have correct addresses to the best knowledge of 
the armchair mapper. It clearly isn't a waterfall import. If there are no more 
objections, on Friday I'll send an email to the imports mailing list describing 
the approach. Given that the script can be run by anyone and is not part of a 
bulk import that is done by a single user, I agree that we need some way to 
connote the source. However instead of a tag, why don't we just add a 
`source:import=NSW LPI Web Services` to the changeset? That way anybody seeing 
the history will know.

Given that there are 3.8 million addresses in total in NSW, assuming it took 1 
second for somebody to add an address, it would take 440 days of non-stop work 
to add every single address. This is not exactly an exciting task! We can 
probably cover the city and immediate suburbs relatively quickly, but maybe it 
is worthwhile investigating the bulk import a bit more. Perhaps once Andrew 
Harvey finishes his work on openaddresses, we can use that data dump and follow 
the New Zealand approach of importing bit by bit - we can divide the dataset 
into an alphabetical list of suburbs, and then treat each suburb's import 
separately.

Ideas?

Dion Moult

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 18, 2018 9:23 PM, Dion Moult  wrote:

> On June 18, 2018 8:56 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>
>>> On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Andrew for your reply!

 1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to the 
 import guidelines below:
>>>
>>> First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way should 
>>> have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify which 
>>> changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW Base Map). 
>>> Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.
>>
>> source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?
>
> Sure thing, I would be happy to if that is the appropriate thing to do :)
>
>>> I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like 
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N,
>>>  could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd do it as 
>>> a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you want two nodes 
>>> inside the building for 11A and 11B.
>>
>> I have had separate buildings for A and B - share a common wall. In some 
>> instances I have 11 then 11A .. but no B.
>
> Thanks for the advice! I've fixed it to use two nodes. However, please note 
> that that particular building was not mapped as part of my import script 
> proposal. That was mapped previously by me completely manually. If I had used 
> the import script it would have created two nodes, one for 11A and one for 
> 11B.
>
>>> While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first pass, eg 
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think it's better to use 
>>> addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18.
>
> Thanks :) I was wondering what was a better way of doing that. Fixed :) Again 
> as above this was mapped manually by me and not using the script.
>
  1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I will only 
 import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single node.
>>>
>>> What are you planning on doing where the address in already in OSM? I think 
>>> in this case we should just not import that point and leave the existing 
>>> OSM addresses.
>>
>> Depends .. I have come across addresses that were out of sequence. Contacted 
>> the still active mapper (moved to Germany) and had not response .. after 
>> some months I have simple deleted them.
>> So it is worth checking that the new data is is not 'better' than the 
>> present OSM data.
>
> With my proposal of a semi-automated approach, every single new address will 
> have to be explicitly decided upon by a human mapper. A human mapper can 
> decide when to import the point if the existing data look bad (based off the 
> LPI Base Map raster background) and when to leave the existing OSM addresses.
>
>>>
>>>
 2. Yes, you are absolutely right that this is not a huge automatic import 
 - it relies on a human choosing what addresses to add and a human 
 submitting it as a change. All it does it automate the address lookup and 
 make sure that the node is neatly positioned at the correct location.
>>>
 3. It looks like you're grabbing their entire dataset. That would be the 
 alternative approach, doing a data dump, then importing that dump. This 
 can import a lot more addresses, but is also much more complex. Is it 
 worth pursuing? What do you reckon?
>>>
>>> Oh I'm not suggesting that. It makes sense for the OpenAddresses project to 
>>> use a complete extract, 

Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

On June 18, 2018 8:56 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>> On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Andrew for your reply!
>>>
>>> 1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to the import 
>>> guidelines below:
>>
>> First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way should 
>> have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify which 
>> changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW Base Map). 
>> Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.
>
> source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?

Sure thing, I would be happy to if that is the appropriate thing to do :)

>> I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N,
>>  could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd do it as 
>> a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you want two nodes 
>> inside the building for 11A and 11B.
>
> I have had separate buildings for A and B - share a common wall. In some 
> instances I have 11 then 11A .. but no B.

Thanks for the advice! I've fixed it to use two nodes. However, please note 
that that particular building was not mapped as part of my import script 
proposal. That was mapped previously by me completely manually. If I had used 
the import script it would have created two nodes, one for 11A and one for 11B.

>> While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first pass, eg 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think it's better to use 
>> addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18.

Thanks :) I was wondering what was a better way of doing that. Fixed :) Again 
as above this was mapped manually by me and not using the script.

>>>  1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I will only 
>>> import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single node.
>>
>> What are you planning on doing where the address in already in OSM? I think 
>> in this case we should just not import that point and leave the existing OSM 
>> addresses.
>
> Depends .. I have come across addresses that were out of sequence. Contacted 
> the still active mapper (moved to Germany) and had not response .. after some 
> months I have simple deleted them.
> So it is worth checking that the new data is is not 'better' than the present 
> OSM data.

With my proposal of a semi-automated approach, every single new address will 
have to be explicitly decided upon by a human mapper. A human mapper can decide 
when to import the point if the existing data look bad (based off the LPI Base 
Map raster background) and when to leave the existing OSM addresses.

>>
>>
>>> 2. Yes, you are absolutely right that this is not a huge automatic import - 
>>> it relies on a human choosing what addresses to add and a human submitting 
>>> it as a change. All it does it automate the address lookup and make sure 
>>> that the node is neatly positioned at the correct location.
>>
>>> 3. It looks like you're grabbing their entire dataset. That would be the 
>>> alternative approach, doing a data dump, then importing that dump. This can 
>>> import a lot more addresses, but is also much more complex. Is it worth 
>>> pursuing? What do you reckon?
>>
>> Oh I'm not suggesting that. It makes sense for the OpenAddresses project to 
>> use a complete extract, but as you might have seen in the openaddresses 
>> ticket there's a lot of problems trying to dump the data, so your approach 
>> of doing it bit by bit should work much better for an OSM import.

Sounds good! Sorry for the misunderstanding :)

>>
>>
>>> 4. It seems odd that they would provide an API but would prevent anything 
>>> from using it.
>>> 5. Looks like they are doing the big data import. See 3.
>>
>> Not quite, they did it using the approach you've described, broken it down 
>> into pices and manually imported everything.
>
> It might be good to do one section and let people have a look at it?
> I do think you'll find it repetitive. Maybe take a break and map something 
> else for a while.
>
> Good Luck.

Yes, an incremental approach followed by regular review sounds good.___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[osm.talk-au]

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 18 June 2018 20:57
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

 

On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:

On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult mailto:d...@thinkmoult.com> > wrote:

Thanks Andrew for your reply!

 

1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to the import 
guidelines below:

 

First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way should have 
an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify which changesets did 
the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW Base Map). Something like 
import=NSW Address Points or something.


source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?




 

Following the import guidelines and using a dedicated account for such imports 
should already make it clear?

 

(sorry for replying to the wrong mailing list first)

 

___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Warin]

On 18/06/18 20:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult > wrote:


Thanks Andrew for your reply!

1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to
the import guidelines below:


First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way 
should have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify 
which changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW Base 
Map). Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.


source:import=LPI API via ?? something like that?



I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N, 
could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd do 
it as a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you want two 
nodes inside the building for 11A and 11B.
I have had separate buildings for A and B - share a common wall. In some 
instances I have 11 then 11A .. but no B.


While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first pass, 
eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think it's better 
to use addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18.


 1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I
will only import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single node.


What are you planning on doing where the address in already in OSM? I 
think in this case we should just not import that point and leave the 
existing OSM addresses.
Depends .. I have come across addresses that were out of sequence. 
Contacted the still active mapper (moved to Germany) and had not 
response .. after some months I have simple deleted them.
So it is worth checking that the new data is is not 'better' than the 
present OSM data.


2. Yes, you are absolutely right that this is not a huge automatic
import - it relies on a human choosing what addresses to add and a
human submitting it as a change. All it does it automate the
address lookup and make sure that the node is neatly positioned at
the correct location.

3. It looks like you're grabbing their entire dataset. That would
be the alternative approach, doing a data dump, then importing
that dump. This can import a lot more addresses, but is also much
more complex. Is it worth pursuing? What do you reckon?


Oh I'm not suggesting that. It makes sense for the OpenAddresses 
project to use a complete extract, but as you might have seen in the 
openaddresses ticket there's a lot of problems trying to dump the 
data, so your approach of doing it bit by bit should work much better 
for an OSM import.


4. It seems odd that they would provide an API but would prevent
anything from using it.
5. Looks like they are doing the big data import. See 3.


Not quite, they did it using the approach you've described, broken it 
down into pices and manually imported everything.


It might be good to do one section and let people have a look at it?
I do think you'll find it repetitive. Maybe take a break and map 
something else for a while.


Good Luck.
___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Andrew Harvey]

On 18 June 2018 at 19:21, Dion Moult  wrote:

> Thanks Andrew for your reply!
>
> 1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to the
> import guidelines below:
>

First up I think any changesets that import addresses in this way should
have an extra changeset tag so if we need to we can identify which
changesets did the import (so more than just source=LPI NSW Base Map).
Something like import=NSW Address Points or something.

I'm not sure about separating the address with a ";" like
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593297556/history#map=19/-33.78072/151.06688=N,
could they not be two separate points? If it's a duplex, then I'd do it as
a single building with addr:housenumber=11, then if you want two nodes
inside the building for 11A and 11B.

While I don't think there's anything wrong with 2/18 as a first pass, eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5667899003, I think it's better to use
addr:unit=2 addr:housenumber=18.

 1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I will only
> import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single node.
>

What are you planning on doing where the address in already in OSM? I think
in this case we should just not import that point and leave the existing
OSM addresses.


> 2. Yes, you are absolutely right that this is not a huge automatic import
> - it relies on a human choosing what addresses to add and a human
> submitting it as a change. All it does it automate the address lookup and
> make sure that the node is neatly positioned at the correct location.
>


> 3. It looks like you're grabbing their entire dataset. That would be the
> alternative approach, doing a data dump, then importing that dump. This can
> import a lot more addresses, but is also much more complex. Is it worth
> pursuing? What do you reckon?
>

Oh I'm not suggesting that. It makes sense for the OpenAddresses project to
use a complete extract, but as you might have seen in the openaddresses
ticket there's a lot of problems trying to dump the data, so your approach
of doing it bit by bit should work much better for an OSM import.


> 4. It seems odd that they would provide an API but would prevent anything
> from using it.
> 5. Looks like they are doing the big data import. See 3.
>

Not quite, they did it using the approach you've described, broken it down
into pices and manually imported everything.
___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

Thanks Andrew for your reply!

1. Thanks for the link to the import guidelines. My responses to the import 
guidelines below:

 1. I am aware that big automatic updates can cause problems. I will only 
import addr:housenumber and addr:street and a single node.
 2. Yep, sending to talk-au mailing list.
 3. I think we have the appropriate license.
 >=4. Looking for more feedback on talk-au first :)

2. Yes, you are absolutely right that this is not a huge automatic import - it 
relies on a human choosing what addresses to add and a human submitting it as a 
change. All it does it automate the address lookup and make sure that the node 
is neatly positioned at the correct location.
3. It looks like you're grabbing their entire dataset. That would be the 
alternative approach, doing a data dump, then importing that dump. This can 
import a lot more addresses, but is also much more complex. Is it worth 
pursuing? What do you reckon?
4. It seems odd that they would provide an API but would prevent anything from 
using it.
5. Looks like they are doing the big data import. See 3.

Dion Moult

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 17, 2018 9:57 PM, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I few thoughts:
>
> 1. If you're planning an Import, and you haven't already read up on 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>
> 2. I like the idea of doing this semi-manually in JOSM. I'm against a 
> completely automated import because we have addresses already in OSM from 
> surveys which should be retained (and avoid having duplicates dumped on top).
>
> 3. I know you've got your scripts working already, but you still might be 
> interested in how we're trying to pull out addresses via the LPI Web Services 
> as CC BY 3.0 AU data for OpenAddresses.io at 
> https://github.com/openaddresses/openaddresses/pull/3977
>
> 4. We are still bound by the Terms and Conditions of using the web services 
> at 
> http://spatialservices.finance.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/lpi_web_services/terms_and_conditions
>  specifically "2.1.6. use any robot, spider, site search/retrieval 
> application, or other device to retrieve or index any portion of the SWS". 
> I've asked LPI about this before and was told it was okay as long as usage 
> didn't affect other users, they were thankful that I asked first though. The 
> way you're using the API I think is okay, but best to play it safe and be 
> friendly with LPI on what we're doing in light of this clause.
>
> 5. The NZ community have been importing their national LINZ data, might be 
> worth reading up on 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-June/005014.html to 
> see if there's anything we could learn from their work.
>
> On 17 June 2018 at 19:00, Dion Moult  wrote:
>
>> I had another look at the LPI resource and would like to propose a way of 
>> importing address data from LPI, because clearly sitting there for months on 
>> end armchair mapping the LPI Base Map as a raster underlay in JOSM is 
>> incredibly inefficient. Also, given that I am proposing an import, I would 
>> really appreciate community feedback to make sure I don't do anything wrong. 
>> First, I've looked at these two pages on usage of the LPI base map:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Australia
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/New_South_Wales_Government_Data
>>
>> It seems to me that we can use any of the data from 
>> http://spatialservices.finance.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/lpi_web_services/access_lpi_web_services
>>  to put data into OSM as long as we add it to that contributors page and 
>> note the LPI as a source. Specifically, we want to import a node that 
>> contains addr:housenumber and addr:street for every single property in NSW.
>>
>> Unfortunately it seems as though their API doesn't have any function to give 
>> a DB dump of addresses inside a bounding box. However it does have two 
>> functions, one which allows you to query a coordinate and it'll tell you 
>> what is the closest address at that point at a screen resolution (slightly 
>> archaic, yes), and another function which allows you to submit an address 
>> and it'll tell you what the government thinks is the centroid of the 
>> property with that address. So if you whack a bunch of points in JOSM that 
>> are within the bounds of a property based off the LPI NSW Base Map as a 
>> raster layer in JOSM, you can do Edit->Copy Coordinates in JOSM, dump it in 
>> a file, and use a script I wrote which will query the LPI web services to 
>> find the address, then query it again to find the proper centroid lat/long, 
>> then create a CSV of points and addresses which you can import into JOSM. 
>> Here's the script with sample input and sample output:
>>
>> https://gist.github.com/Moult/5821c74fb792b7afa5d758aebea68e40
>>
>> ... this is the changeset I produced with this small test sample:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59909707
>>
>> With this method I reckon you can 

Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

I had another look at the LPI resource and would like to propose a way of 
importing address data from LPI, because clearly sitting there for months on 
end armchair mapping the LPI Base Map as a raster underlay in JOSM is 
incredibly inefficient. Also, given that I am proposing an import, I would 
really appreciate community feedback to make sure I don't do anything wrong. 
First, I've looked at these two pages on usage of the LPI base map:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Australia
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution/New_South_Wales_Government_Data

It seems to me that we can use any of the data from 
http://spatialservices.finance.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/lpi_web_services/access_lpi_web_services
 to put data into OSM as long as we add it to that contributors page and note 
the LPI as a source. Specifically, we want to import a node that contains 
addr:housenumber and addr:street for every single property in NSW.

Unfortunately it seems as though their API doesn't have any function to give a 
DB dump of addresses inside a bounding box. However it does have two functions, 
one which allows you to query a coordinate and it'll tell you what is the 
closest address at that point at a screen resolution (slightly archaic, yes), 
and another function which allows you to submit an address and it'll tell you 
what the government thinks is the centroid of the property with that address. 
So if you whack a bunch of points in JOSM that are within the bounds of a 
property based off the LPI NSW Base Map as a raster layer in JOSM, you can do 
Edit->Copy Coordinates in JOSM, dump it in a file, and use a script I wrote 
which will query the LPI web services to find the address, then query it again 
to find the proper centroid lat/long, then create a CSV of points and addresses 
which you can import into JOSM. Here's the script with sample input and sample 
output:

https://gist.github.com/Moult/5821c74fb792b7afa5d758aebea68e40

... this is the changeset I produced with this small test sample:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59909707

With this method I reckon you can quite quickly and accurately import addresses 
for a suburb. Note that this only imports nodes. It is up to somebody else to 
draw buildings and so on. Note that this uses two web services, the NSW Address 
Location Service and the NSW Property Service. The former is already credited 
in the contributors page, but the latter is not yet - it will have to be added, 
I suspect.

Looking forward to any feedback!

Dion Moult

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 17, 2018 3:14 PM, Daniel O'Connor  wrote:

> For knowing "whats mapped" at a high level, I like http://qa.poole.ch - I 
> believe it has filters for unmapped addresses.
>
> On the ground stuff - streetcomplete does really well at prompting for things 
> without address, highly recommend.
>
> Setting up a task manager instance; I reckon it could make a lot of sense for 
> us as a community. We seem to be a small group who punch above our weight in 
> terms of how spread out we are but have much we have mapped.
> Alternatively, maproulette tasks.
>
> It seems to work well for US imports of address/buildings/etc; and its 
> reasonable to expect that:
> - One day; the gnaf will be suitable for import or
> - LPI Basemap NSW addresses or otger data.gov.au imports for an entire 
> town/area/etc make sense.
> - There will be communities within the AU mapping crowd with focuses 
> (camping; cycling; tourism; public transport spring to mind)
>
> Looking at https://github.com/hotosm/tasking-manager/blob/develop/README.md 
> it seems like python/postgres are the main server hosting requirements.
>
> On Sun, 17 Jun. 2018, 11:17 am Dion Moult,  wrote:
>
>> Wow, seems a little overkill to put the task there where it seems the 
>> objective is for humanitarian needs :) Australian house addresses are hardly 
>> humanitarian in nature :)
>>
>> Dion Moult
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On June 17, 2018 9:30 AM, Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>>
>>> You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and 
>>> then send folks the link
>>>
>>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL
>>>
>>> Cheers - Phil,
>>> On the road with his iPad
>>>
>>> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>>
 As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to 
 divide up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of 
 whether that zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for 
 this?

 Dion Moult

  Original Message 
 On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
>> Thanks Andrew et all,
>>
>> Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the 
>> LPI base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the 
>> work I've done so far if I'm doing things 

Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Simon Poole]

There are a number of task manger instances run outside of HOT (which
would really really not be an appropriate one). It's on the other side
of the world but please feel free to use our (SOSM) instance 
http://tasks.osm.ch/ (which is currently mainly used for coordinating an
address import).

Simon

PS: while I have your attention maybe somebody wants to weigh in on
https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/8ra1x2/android_apps_that_do_navigation_well/


Am 17.06.2018 um 01:30 schrieb Phil Wyatt:
> You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority
> and then send folks the link
>
> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL
>
>
> Cheers - Phil, 
> On the road with his iPad 
>
> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  > wrote:
>
>>
>> As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to
>> divide up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of
>> whether that zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard
>> approach for this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dion Moult
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
>> > Thanks Andrew et all,
>> >
>> > Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads
>> up of the LPI base map. Before I go too far, can one of you
>> please look at the work I've done so far if I'm doing things
>> correctly? Here is a small sample in the suburb of Epping that I
>> have traced houses and added addresses:
>> >
>> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628
>> >
>> > In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but
>> instead traced off ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery,
>> the houses don't line up. Should this be fixed? If so, what's the
>> best way?
>>
>>
>> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that
>> offset will vary as you go up and down hills.
>>
>> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax
>> error than the other sources .. I prefer it to any other images
>> for its accuracy.
>>
>> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to
>> date things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff
>> is more current.
>>
>>
>> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on
>> that (yet). :)
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

I must admit I have an ulterior motive for use of a AU based tasking manager as 
I do mapping for Australian Red Cross during emergencies. I have done the 
training for HOTOSM project manager but never actually used it. RC use OSM 
mapping as backgrounds for some of their work and on mobile devices so any 
improvements in data is always welcome.

 

I also think it may be a way to get others involved in structured OSM mapping 
albeit using an emergency as a catalyst. For instance if a cyclone or fire is 
active somewhere then use that to encourage checking of roads, buildings 
etc…pretty much what is done on the HOT tasking manager.

 

I encouraged building mapping (via slack groups) during Tathra fires and now 
most of the buildings are there.

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-36.7272/149.9864

 

Likewise updating some remote communities when cyclones were imminent.

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-14.8985/141.6210 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-15.4746/141.7481 

 

A tasking manager would prevent duplication etc but I think it works best in 
smaller discrete areas rather than a state wide effort. I am happy to help out 
where I can but I am definitely just a user, not a programmer or coder.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Daniel O'Connor [mailto:daniel.ocon...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, 17 June 2018 3:15 PM
To: Dion Moult
Cc: Phil Wyatt; OSM-Au
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

 

For knowing "whats mapped" at a high level, I like http://qa.poole.ch - I 
believe it has filters for unmapped addresses.

 

On the ground stuff - streetcomplete does really well at prompting for things 
without address, highly recommend.

 

 

 

Setting up a task manager instance; I reckon it could make a lot of sense for 
us as a community. We seem to be a small group who punch above our weight in 
terms of how spread out we are but have much we have mapped.

Alternatively, maproulette tasks.

 

It seems to work well for US imports of address/buildings/etc; and its 
reasonable to expect that:

- One day; the gnaf will be suitable for import or

- LPI Basemap NSW addresses or otger data.gov.au imports for an entire 
town/area/etc make sense.

- There will be communities within the AU mapping crowd with focuses (camping; 
cycling; tourism; public transport spring to mind)

 

Looking at https://github.com/hotosm/tasking-manager/blob/develop/README.md it 
seems like python/postgres are the main server hosting requirements.

 

On Sun, 17 Jun. 2018, 11:17 am Dion Moult,  wrote:

Wow, seems a little overkill to put the task there where it seems the objective 
is for humanitarian needs :) Australian house addresses are hardly humanitarian 
in nature :)

 

Dion Moult

 

 

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On June 17, 2018 9:30 AM, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

 

You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and then 
send folks the link

 

https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL

 

 

Cheers - Phil, 

On the road with his iPad 

 

On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:

 

As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to divide up 
Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of whether that zone 
has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for this? 

 

 

 

Dion Moult

 

 

 

 

 

 Original Message 

On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:

> Thanks Andrew et all,

> 

> Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the LPI 
> base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work I've 
> done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in the 
> suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:

> 

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628

> 

> In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced off 
> ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. Should 
> this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?

 

 

Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset will 
vary as you go up and down hills.

 

The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.

 

That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date things. 
I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more current.

 

 

I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that (yet). :)

 

 

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Daniel O'Connor]

For knowing "whats mapped" at a high level, I like http://qa.poole.ch - I
believe it has filters for unmapped addresses.

On the ground stuff - streetcomplete does really well at prompting for
things without address, highly recommend.



Setting up a task manager instance; I reckon it could make a lot of sense
for us as a community. We seem to be a small group who punch above our
weight in terms of how spread out we are but have much we have mapped.
Alternatively, maproulette tasks.

It seems to work well for US imports of address/buildings/etc; and its
reasonable to expect that:
- One day; the gnaf will be suitable for import or
- LPI Basemap NSW addresses or otger data.gov.au imports for an entire
town/area/etc make sense.
- There will be communities within the AU mapping crowd with focuses
(camping; cycling; tourism; public transport spring to mind)

Looking at https://github.com/hotosm/tasking-manager/blob/develop/README.md
it seems like python/postgres are the main server hosting requirements.

On Sun, 17 Jun. 2018, 11:17 am Dion Moult,  wrote:

> Wow, seems a little overkill to put the task there where it seems the
> objective is for humanitarian needs :) Australian house addresses are
> hardly humanitarian in nature :)
>
> Dion Moult
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On June 17, 2018 9:30 AM, Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>
> You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and
> then send folks the link
>
> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL
>
>
> Cheers - Phil,
> On the road with his iPad
>
> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:
>
>
> As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to
> divide up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of
> whether that zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for
> this?
>
>
>
> Dion Moult
>
>
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
> > Thanks Andrew et all,
> >
> > Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the
> LPI base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work
> I've done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in
> the suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628
> >
> > In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced
> off ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up.
> Should this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?
>
>
> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset
> will vary as you go up and down hills.
>
> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than
> the other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.
>
> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date
> things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more
> current.
>
>
> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that
> (yet). :)
>
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Phil Wyatt]

Correct, alternatively the AU OSM community could set up an instance of the 
task manager to support community projects.


Cheers - Phil, 
On the road with his iPad 

> On 17 Jun 2018, at 11:47 am, Dion Moult  wrote:
> 
> Wow, seems a little overkill to put the task there where it seems the 
> objective is for humanitarian needs :) Australian house addresses are hardly 
> humanitarian in nature :)
> 
> Dion Moult
> 
> 
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On June 17, 2018 9:30 AM, Phil Wyatt  wrote:
>> 
>> You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and 
>> then send folks the link
>> 
>> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers - Phil, 
>> On the road with his iPad 
>> 
>> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>> 
>>> As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to 
>>> divide up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of 
>>> whether that zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for 
>>> this? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dion Moult
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Original Message 
>>> On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
>>> > Thanks Andrew et all,
>>> >
>>> > Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the 
>>> > LPI base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work 
>>> > I've done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in 
>>> > the suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:
>>> >
>>> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628
>>> >
>>> > In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced 
>>> > off ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line 
>>> > up. Should this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset 
>>> will vary as you go up and down hills.
>>> 
>>> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
>>> other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.
>>> 
>>> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date 
>>> things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more 
>>> current.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that 
>>> (yet). :)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
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> 
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

Wow, seems a little overkill to put the task there where it seems the objective 
is for humanitarian needs :) Australian house addresses are hardly humanitarian 
in nature :)

Dion Moult

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 17, 2018 9:30 AM, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and then 
> send folks the link
>
> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL
>
> Cheers - Phil,
> On the road with his iPad
>
> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:
>
>> As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to divide 
>> up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of whether that 
>> zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for this?
>>
>> Dion Moult
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
 Thanks Andrew et all,

 Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the 
 LPI base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work 
 I've done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in 
 the suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628

 In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced 
 off ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. 
 Should this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?
>>>
>>> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset 
>>> will vary as you go up and down hills.
>>>
>>> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
>>> other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.
>>>
>>> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date 
>>> things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more 
>>> current.
>>>
>>> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that 
>>> (yet). :)
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>> ___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Phil Wyatt]

You could put a project up on the HOT Task manager as a low priority and then 
send folks the link

https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL


Cheers - Phil, 
On the road with his iPad 

> On 16 Jun 2018, at 10:29 pm, Dion Moult  wrote:
> 
> 
> As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to divide 
> up Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of whether that 
> zone has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for this? 
> 
> 
> 
> Dion Moult
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin < 61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
> > Thanks Andrew et all,
> >
> > Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the LPI 
> > base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work I've 
> > done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in the 
> > suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628
> >
> > In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced 
> > off ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. 
> > Should this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?
> 
> 
> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset will 
> vary as you go up and down hills.
> 
> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
> other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.
> 
> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date 
> things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more current.
> 
> 
> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that (yet). 
> :)
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

As a continuation of this thread just wondering if there was a way to divide up 
Sydney into a grid and automatically check the progress of whether that zone 
has been mapped or not. Is there a standard approach for this?

Dion Moult

 Original Message 
On 6 Jun 2018, 09:39, Warin wrote:

> On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:
>> Thanks Andrew et all,
>>
>> Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the LPI 
>> base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work I've 
>> done so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in the 
>> suburb of Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628
>>
>> In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced off 
>> ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. 
>> Should this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?
>
> Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset will 
> vary as you go up and down hills.
>
> The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
> other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.
>
> That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date 
> things. I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more current.
>
> I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that (yet). 
> :)
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Warin]

On 06/06/18 08:51, Dion Moult wrote:

Thanks Andrew et all,

Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the LPI 
base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work I've done 
so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in the suburb of 
Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628

In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced off 
ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. Should 
this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?



Any imagery can have a 'offset' from where it should be. And that offset will 
vary as you go up and down hills.

The LPI Imagery has much better resolution and less parallax error than the 
other sources .. I prefer it to any other images for its accuracy.

That said it is usefull to check with other images for more up to date things. 
I found in Coffs Harbour that the DigitalGlobe stuff is more current.


I'll leave others to comment on that address stuff.. no expert on that (yet). :)


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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Dion Moult]

Thanks Andrew et all,

Yes, I have used the ESRI imagery layer. Thanks for the heads up of the LPI 
base map. Before I go too far, can one of you please look at the work I've done 
so far if I'm doing things correctly? Here is a small sample in the suburb of 
Epping that I have traced houses and added addresses:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.78071/151.06628

In that scenario I did not trace off the LPI imagery, but instead traced off 
ESRI. I noticed if I enable the LPI imagery, the houses don't line up. Should 
this be fixed? If so, what's the best way?

I have added both addr:housenumber and addr:street. Points which I am unsure 
about how I have tagged and would like comments are the 
addr:housenumber=18;2/18, the usage of service=driveway to link to the 
entrance=house, and the multiple buildings which have addr:housenumber=28-30.

Any other QA comments would also be much appreciated so I can improve.

In addition, a few months ago I also traced all of the houses which you can see 
here, and added tags for building=house and levels where appropriate:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-33.8627/151.0840

If there are any QA comments I would love to hear them!

​Dion Moult​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 4 June 2018 5:12 AM, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> On 3 June 2018 at 21:48, Dion Moult  wrote:
> 
> > I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating that many 
> > house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like to help by tracing 
> > many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free to audit my history on OSM 
> > under the name "Moult").  I would also like to add address information 
> > (addr:housenumber and addr:street) to these ways however I don't think that 
> > we are meant to be copying from Google maps. Is there another map source 
> > that has addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government 
> > cadastre map? Is that allowed?
> 
> What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World Imagery" 
> available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, just like Google 
> Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as we don't have the 
> copyright permissions to use these.
> 
> Joel H is right about the LPI Base Map as a source of addresses, which we do 
> have an explicit permission for (not the new OSMF waiver though).
> 
> The building outlines are best obtained from the LPI Imagery which has the 
> highest resolution and isn't too old.
> 
> Not sure how you would find the addr:street? I'd say don't add this unless 
> you know from a survey or local_knowledge, especially around corners it can 
> be tricky. Besides most of the time it can be guessed already by data 
> consumers snapping to the nearest road segment.
> 
> PS. There is also GNAF which has address data Australia wide which you can 
> use with OSM, but not import into OSM. Personally I use this in a lot of maps 
> and mobile apps (OsmAnd, you should be able to get it into maps.me too).

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney - and WA

[Ian Steer]

>Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 22:10:19 +1000
>From: "Joel H." 
>To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org, d...@thinkmoult.com
>Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney
>Message-ID: <884c4fa4-16cd-893d-8b62-3620f023e...@disroot.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>OSM is permitted to use the LPI Base Map, This contains street number where 
>they are.
>However I am not from NSW so I can't say how accurate LPI is. You are best to 
>do a ground survey, the Android app StreetComplete is good for this as long as 
>the houses have been mapped already.
>If you wish to use LPI, you can switch under imagery in JOSM (and maybe iD)

Does anyone know if there is a West Australian equivalent to the NSW LPI Base 
map ?




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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Andrew Harvey]

Thanks for the links Andy. Marc is correct, I meant we can only use the
Imagery layer, not any of ESRI's other basemaps like their Streets basemap,
etc.

On 5 June 2018 at 02:23, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 03/06/18 20:12, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
> On 3 June 2018 at 21:48, Dion Moult  wrote:
>>
>> I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating that many
>> house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like to help by tracing
>> many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free to audit my history on OSM
>> under the name "Moult").  I would also like to add address information
>> (addr:housenumber and addr:street) to these ways however I don't think that
>> we are meant to be copying from Google maps. Is there another map source
>> that has addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government
>> cadastre map? Is that allowed?
>>
>
> What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World
> Imagery" available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed,
> just like Google Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as we
> don't have the copyright permissions to use these.
>
>
> As a bit of background, see https://github.com/Esri/
> arcgis-osm-editor/issues/104 and https://www.esri.com/arcgis-
> blog/products/arcgis-hub/constituent-engagement/esri-world-imagery-in-
> openstreetmap/?rmedium=redirect=blogs.esri.
> com%2Fesri%2Farcgis%2F2017%2F08%2F24%2Fworld-imagery-in-osm .  I'm not a
> lawyer, but that github issue has contributions both from ESRI and members
> of OSMF's LWG, so I'd definitely read it.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/06/18 20:12, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 3 June 2018 at 21:48, Dion Moult > wrote:


I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating
that many house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like
to help by tracing many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free
to audit my history on OSM under the name "Moult").  I would also
like to add address information (addr:housenumber and addr:street)
to these ways however I don't think that we are meant to be
copying from Google maps. Is there another map source that has
addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government
cadastre map? Is that allowed?


What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World 
Imagery" available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, 
just like Google Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as 
we don't have the copyright permissions to use these.




As a bit of background, see 
https://github.com/Esri/arcgis-osm-editor/issues/104 and 
https://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-hub/constituent-engagement/esri-world-imagery-in-openstreetmap/?rmedium=redirect=blogs.esri.com%2Fesri%2Farcgis%2F2017%2F08%2F24%2Fworld-imagery-in-osm 
.  I'm not a lawyer, but that github issue has contributions both from 
ESRI and members of OSMF's LWG, so I'd definitely read it.


Best Regards,

Andy
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Marc Gemis]

Both Andrew and the wiki say that you can only use ESRI World Imagery
(aka World Imagery map). You are not allowed to use anything else from
Esri.

m

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 7:38 AM,   wrote:
> From: Andrew Harvey 
> Sent: Monday, 4 June 2018 05:13
> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney
>
>
>
> What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World
> Imagery" available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, just
> like Google Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as we don't
> have the copyright permissions to use these.
>
>
>
>
>
> That statement does not seem to match the information on the wiki?
>
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Esri#Legal_permissions
>
>
>
> Using Esri imagery in editors
>
> The easiest way to do this is to select the “Esri satellite imagery” layer
> as an option in either iD or JOSM.
>
> Legal permissions
>
> Esri and its imagery contributors grant Users the non-exclusive right to use
> the World Imagery map to trace features and validate edits in the creation
> of vector data. Users that create vector data from the World Imagery map may
> want to publicly share that vector data through a GIS data clearinghouse of
> its own or through another open data site. This public sharing could be
> achieved through ArcGIS Open Data or the OpenStreetMap (OSM) Initiative. For
> ArcGIS users that want to contribute such vector data to OSM, Esri provides
> applications and services directly accessible from ArcGIS platform. Users
> acknowledge that any vector data contributed to OSM is then governed by and
> released under the OpenStreetMap License (e.g. ODbL).
>
> Except for the additional limited rights granted above, any and all other
> uses of the World Imagery map remain subject to the terms and conditions set
> forth in the Esri Master Agreement or Terms of Use, as applicable. Esri and
> its imagery contributors retain all right, title, and interest in and to
> their respective imagery data contributed to the World Imagery map. (source)
>
> Attribution should be in either source=Esri or imagery_used=Esri tags on a
> changeset.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[osm.talk-au]

From: Andrew Harvey  
Sent: Monday, 4 June 2018 05:13
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

 

What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World Imagery" 
available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, just like Google 
Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as we don't have the 
copyright permissions to use these.

 

 

That statement does not seem to match the information on the wiki?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Esri#Legal_permissions

 

Using Esri imagery in editors

The easiest way to do this is to select the “Esri satellite imagery” layer as 
an option in either iD or JOSM. 

Legal permissions

Esri and its imagery contributors grant Users the non-exclusive right to use 
the World Imagery map to trace features and validate edits in the creation of 
vector data. Users that create vector data from the World Imagery map may want 
to publicly share that vector data through a GIS data clearinghouse of its own 
or through another open data site. This public sharing could be achieved 
through ArcGIS Open Data <https://hub.arcgis.com/datasets?q=buildings>  or the 
OpenStreetMap (OSM) Initiative. For ArcGIS users that want to contribute such 
vector data to OSM, Esri provides applications and services directly accessible 
from ArcGIS platform. Users acknowledge that any vector data contributed to OSM 
is then governed by and released under the OpenStreetMap License (e.g. ODbL). 

Except for the additional limited rights granted above, any and all other uses 
of the World Imagery map remain subject to the terms and conditions set forth 
in the Esri Master Agreement or Terms of Use, as applicable. Esri and its 
imagery contributors retain all right, title, and interest in and to their 
respective imagery data contributed to the World Imagery map. (source 
<https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=8e90a00a0a6845a49262e0b756f57a10> ) 

Attribution should be in either  
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source> source=Esri or  
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:imagery_used> imagery_used=Esri tags 
on a changeset. 

 

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Warin]

+1 for the LIP Imagery and Base Map.
I have been doing a few places - the shopping areas for tourist spots as 
that is where I think most of navigation demand is. At the centres of a 
block the street name is fairly obvious. The corners can be tricky for 
the street name .. but if the number flows sequentially in one direction 
and non sequentially in the other you can extrapolate that the street 
name is the same as for the sequential numbers.


In Sydneys CBD the LIP Imagery is fairly up to date, in Coffs Harbour 
the DigitalGlobe Standard Imagery is more upto date.


Good luck, there is a lot to do .. you may find it best to do the start 
and end of each street as a start to the house numbers, you 'll get more 
done and it will serve as a guide for the people trying to navigate.
Oh .. and it is not necessary to map the buildings .. you just need a 
node with the address information ..that will speed things up too. But 
for the shopping areas I have been adding the building outlines too.


On 04/06/18 05:12, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On 3 June 2018 at 21:48, Dion Moult > wrote:


I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating
that many house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like
to help by tracing many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free
to audit my history on OSM under the name "Moult").  I would also
like to add address information (addr:housenumber and addr:street)
to these ways however I don't think that we are meant to be
copying from Google maps. Is there another map source that has
addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government
cadastre map? Is that allowed?


What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World 
Imagery" available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, 
just like Google Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as 
we don't have the copyright permissions to use these.


Joel H is right about the LPI Base Map as a source of addresses, which 
we do have an explicit permission for (not the new OSMF waiver though).


The building outlines are best obtained from the LPI Imagery which has 
the highest resolution and isn't too old.


Not sure how you would find the addr:street? I'd say don't add this 
unless you know from a survey or local_knowledge, especially around 
corners it can be tricky. Besides most of the time it can be guessed 
already by data consumers snapping to the nearest road segment.


PS. There is also GNAF which has address data Australia wide which you 
can use with OSM, but not import into OSM. Personally I use this in a 
lot of maps and mobile apps (OsmAnd, you should be able to get it into 
maps.me  too).



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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Andrew Harvey]

On 3 June 2018 at 21:48, Dion Moult  wrote:
>
> I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating that many
> house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like to help by tracing
> many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free to audit my history on OSM
> under the name "Moult").  I would also like to add address information
> (addr:housenumber and addr:street) to these ways however I don't think that
> we are meant to be copying from Google maps. Is there another map source
> that has addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government
> cadastre map? Is that allowed?
>

What do you mean by "ESRI as a base map" do you mean the "ESRI World
Imagery" available in ID and JOSM? ESRI's map layers are not allowed, just
like Google Maps or Google Street View which must not be used as we don't
have the copyright permissions to use these.

Joel H is right about the LPI Base Map as a source of addresses, which we
do have an explicit permission for (not the new OSMF waiver though).

The building outlines are best obtained from the LPI Imagery which has the
highest resolution and isn't too old.

Not sure how you would find the addr:street? I'd say don't add this unless
you know from a survey or local_knowledge, especially around corners it can
be tricky. Besides most of the time it can be guessed already by data
consumers snapping to the nearest road segment.

PS. There is also GNAF which has address data Australia wide which you can
use with OSM, but not import into OSM. Personally I use this in a lot of
maps and mobile apps (OsmAnd, you should be able to get it into maps.me
too).
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping houses and addresses in Sydney

[Joel H.]

OSM is permitted to use the LPI Base Map, This contains street number
where they are.

However I am not from NSW so I can't say how accurate LPI is. You are
best to do a ground survey, the Android app StreetComplete is good for
this as long as the houses have been mapped already.

If you wish to use LPI, you can switch under imagery in JOSM (and maybe iD)


On 03/06/18 22:00, talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote

> I've started using OSM more and more and I find it frustrating that many 
> house addresses are not available in OSM. I would like to help by tracing 
> many houses using ESRI as a base map (feel free to audit my history on OSM 
> under the name "Moult").  I would also like to add address information 
> (addr:housenumber and addr:street) to these ways however I don't think that 
> we are meant to be copying from Google maps. Is there another map source that 
> has addresses that we can use? Perhaps some form of government cadastre map? 
> Is that allowed?
>
> ​Dion Moult​


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