Re: [OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

[Mike N.]

On 5/9/2024 5:33 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote:

At least in Germany we have a grid of Basestations which offer their
RTCM 3.1/3.2  Data via NTRIP which is called SAPOS. As there are huge
differences between different states at least in some of them its for
Free.
When I last looked 5 years ago, the only free option for me in SC, USA 
has a base station 54 miles away.  Although way outside of the 
recommended distance, I use their NTRIP feed for a significant increase 
in accuracy and precision.


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Re: [OSM-talk] recommendation for JSON to CSV converter

[Mike Thompson]

Hi Martin,

Could you provide some more detail on what specifically you are attempting
to achieve? Converting a geojson file of points to CSV is pretty easy, but
once you get to linestrings, multi-linestrings, polygons, etc. it gets
difficult because in those cases the geometry objects have a variable
number of components.

Mike

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 8:26 AM Martin Trautmann via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Is there any JSON converter that you would recommend?
>
> There are plenty of web services, but none of those worked for me, on
> <
> https://opendata.essen.de/sites/default/files/Hauskoordinaten_0822.geojson
> >
> (70 MB)
>
> There are plenty of starter tutorials, in order to use python,
> javascript etc.
>
> But those did not work either.
>
> I tried dasel, without success (dasel version v2.5.0)
>
> So I wonder what the best solution might be, apart of writing my own
> converter (probably in perl).
>
> What I would expect is hopefully a 100 % conversion - or an error log
> which data could not be processed.
>
> The problem here seems to be the nesting of several levels.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Harsha Somaya  wrote:

> The data on these trees is only added if the user consents.
>
To what exactly have these users consented?  Putting their data in the
public domain?  To some other license? We need more specifics.


> I am creating an open source app with my team. Licenses are built-in the
> app.
>
We are not talking software licenses, but the license that applies to the
data.


> The GPS accuracy is about 16ft and is calculated from the phone's GPS
> (phone location has to be turned on for app functionality;
>
That would be typical for a cell phone under ideal circumstances according
to this US Government site:
https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/, but the same site
notes "However, their accuracy worsens near buildings, bridges, and *trees*.").
But let's assume that your data is accurate to +/-16 feet and let's assume
that existing OSM tree data is accurate to +/- 33 feet (10 meters) (just an
example, might be better in US). You should download existing OSM tree
data, buffer by 49 feet (the math is a little more involved, but this
should be a safe number to use), and delete any of your data that falls
within the resulting polygon before uploading.

>
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 2:08 PM Courtney 
wrote:

> It's valid to ask for more specifics. You're right that "combative" just
> ends up being an alienating word.
>
> Here's an example that I think everyone can benefit from.
>
> When I see a comment that reflects a kind of tired, angry emotion about
> having to point out a mistake or breach of protocol yet again, I always
> flinch. This is because it is almost certainly the first time for the
> person who made the mistake. And, it seems unfair to burden them with the
> anger that comes from the mistakes of others who came before them. You can
> see that in some of the earlier comments in this thread.
>
> I see why people get worn out having to say things over and over,
> especially when they are documented in wikis, but there are other factors,
> most importantly that new people are joining the community every day.
>
> Compare a statement like this:
>
>  "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful,
> here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"
>
> Thanks Courtney, this is helpful, and actionable.  If there are other
things that you, or others can point out, it would further the journey to
better communication.

Mike

>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, May 3, 2023, 1:00 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the mailing
> lists
>
I am not sure using a term such as "combative" is going to be effective in
bringing about the change you desire.   First the term has strong negative
connotation,  and second it is non specific. The people you view as
combative probably don't see themselves as combative and don't what
specifically is causing you to perceive them as such, and thus don't know
what to do differently.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 10:42 PM Ewen Hill  wrote:

> Hi all,
>   I am really disappointed by the anger and outrage in this thread and
> that, to castigate a volunteer in public,
>
I understand you, and some others may feel this way, but what I am seeing
is simply an exchange of ideas between people that have different points of
view - some of those views are very strongly held.  If that is your idea of
"anger, outrange, and castigation", then we have a problem, because for the
vitality of the community - and our individual development and learning -
we need to be able to express our views and hear views from others. The
only "anger" I heard was towards companies that some on this mailing list
believe compromise our privacy.  Whether you agree with those people or
not, I don't think there is a problem with anger directed at such companies
and their alleged  behavior - but perhaps others feel differently.  If
there was a particular statement or statements that you felt were
problematic, perhaps you could point to the general type of case (probably
shouldn't call folks out by name) so that the rest of us could learn and
improve.



>
>   I hope in future, that if someone objects strongly to a scenario
> presented, then they contact the original poster directly first and if they
> have no luck, then reply to the group.
>
It is important that these debates happen in the open so we all can hear
all different points of view.  For example, you responded to the entire
list, and now we know you feel there has been "anger, outrage, and
catigation" on this list.  If you provide more details to the list, I am
sure most of us will make an effort to do better (as long as it doesn't
involve refraining from expressing our views and debating the issues).

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 4:58 PM Courtney 
wrote:

> Here, too, we gave quite a bit of careful thought to the decision. We felt
> that if we did not disclose that we were on the CWG, that it might be seen
> by some as a lapse of transparency.
>
It is good that you disclosed your affiliations.  However, you also need to
make it abundantly clear that this project is not part of your work for the
CWG (and for those of you employed by TomTom, not part of your employment).
Otherwise, you are potentially misleading people to believe, as I did, that
this was an official CWG survey.  I am assuming that you had the best of
intentions and that you were not trying to mislead anyone.

As Frederick pointed out, members of some other working groups seem to do a
very good job of making it clear as to whether they are speaking as part of
a WG or as an individual.

Mike

>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 11:03 AM Courtney 
wrote:

> Why is the main "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback?
> Why is it the only one that is producing such a negative tone?
>
I don't sense a "negative tone" in this conversation.  Some people disagree
with some things you are doing, some agree with things you are doing, we
are having a discussion.  We learn and get better by being open to ideas
from those that do not agree with us.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 5:52 PM Courtney 
wrote:

>  As well, this is not an OSMF survey, nor is it a CWG survey.  Yes, two of
> us volunteer for the CWG, but it is not formally "from" or "of" the OSMF.
>
I guess I didn't read the original email closely enough.  I got the
impression that this was a CWG survey.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 5:23 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> > The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from
> > planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain
> > OSM data regardless of the ODbL.
>
> Really?  That's huge news compared to the data being under ODbL.  And,
> once once gets the data under ODbL, it can be redistributed, and there's
> no requirement that I see to impose the Website Terms on others.
>
 "The ODbL allows you to use the OSM data for any purpose you like. This
includes personal, community, educational, commercial or governmental." [0]

If this isn't the case, then the above referenced OSMF page should be
edited to reflect this.

Mike


[0]
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#1.3._What_can_I_do_with_the_OSM_Data
?
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Re: [OSM-talk] AT Email

[Mike N.]

Hi,

    AT has removed the block and email service to OSM has resumed.   
Thanks for your help!


  Regards,

  Mike

On 1/30/2023 9:24 AM, Grant Slater wrote:

Hi Mike,

We have now reached out to ATT asking them to unblock the
OpenStreetMap.org mail relay server or provide us with more detail.

We recently cut across to a new email relay server, we had spent a few
months slowly increasing the mail sent by the new relay to slowly
build up "sender IP reputation".
https://twitter.com/OSM_Tech/status/1615822718234157056

Kind regards,

Grant



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[OSM-talk] AT Email

[Mike N.]

Not sure where to report this but it seems that AT Email has placed 
OpenStreetMap Emails on the block list in the past week.


   Example: Changeset feed Emails, OpenStreetMap US Email list sent to 
@att.net destination emails.   They do not show up in a spam box, so I'm 
guessing it's a full block.


  Mike

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Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 11:22 AM Minh Nguyen via talk 
wrote:

> Vào lúc 09:55 2022-12-05, Zeke Farwell đã viết:
> > That is a good summary, though "Once the OSM available satellite imagery
> > does not show the feature"

1) There are other sources that an armchair mapper can use other than
imagery, such as the Strava Global Heatmap, the USGS 3 DEP data (in the
US), and GPX data that has been uploaded to the OSM server.
2) The term "satellite imagery" also excludes street level imagery, such as
Mapillary
3) Technically some of the imagery we refer to as "satellite" is really
"aerial."

"Once the feature truly no longer exists and is no longer evident in any of
the available remote sources commonly used to edit OSM, including overhead
imagery (satellite/aerial/drone), street level imagery (e.g. Mapillary),
GPS traces/heatmaps (e.g. Strava), and elevation data (e.g. USGS 3DEP) the
feature can be deleted"

>
>
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[OSM-talk] Use of "Proprietary" imagery to edit OSM

[Mike Thompson]

Concerning this changeset:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/128035436

Changeset comment:

added missing roads according to proprietary aerial imagery

Editing organization's follow on comment:
"Proprietary" for Lyft meaning "provided to us for use in OSM but not the
general public"

Is this acceptable?  In my mind it is not as the whole community should
have access in order to verify and build on these edits.

Thoughts?

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:46 AM Marc_marc  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Le 25.10.22 à 09:42, Warin a écrit :
> > why have the tags that mean there is nothing left of it?
>
> I'm using from time to time as a QA-tag to avoid that a mapper
> add it back

I do this as well.  We have had some major wildfires around where I live,
and a lot of structures were destroyed, yet they still show up in some
imagery sources.  I mark these as destroyed so another mapper doesn't add
them back.

Also trails are constantly being rerouted, and yet the old location will be
shown on imagery and Strava for some time.  Tagging the ols trail with a
life cycle prefix lets other mappers know that what they are seeing on
imagery doesn't match reality.

Mike

>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vespucci - Proximity Alerts - Not working

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:42 AM Simon Poole  wrote:

> The alerts are generated when data is downloaded/merged and the device
> location is within the specified radius around the object causing the
> notification.
>
> With other words you need to have one of the auto download options enabled
> for the mechanism to work (or you need to replace all the data).
>
Thanks.  Unfortunately most of the time I will be surveying without a data
connection, so this isn't going to work for me.

>
> Simon
>
> PS: osm-talk is not a suitable forum for support questions.
>
Sorry, what do you recommend?

Mike
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[OSM-talk] Vespucci - Proximity Alerts - Not working

[Mike Thompson]

I am trying to get Vespucci to give me an audible alert when I travel to
within a certain distance of a OSM map note, or a OSM object with a fixme
tag.  I have not been able to get this feature to work, at least not in the
manner that I would like it to work.  It does alert when I initially
download OSM data for any notes etc. that are near my location at that
time.  This is expected.  However, when I then travel to another location
within the download area with a note, etc., Vespucci does not produce an
alert.

* "Generate notifications" is turned on
* "Max distance for notifications" is 30 meters - under most conditions my
phone's location should be more accurate than that.

What am I doing wrong?

Mike
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Re: [Talk-GB] Anglican churches

[Mike Baggaley via Talk-GB]

>It's not documented anywhere at the moment, but the different coloured
>markers on the "nameless" maps at e.g.
>https://osm.mathmos.net/nameless/amenity/place_of_worship simply
>denote the type of OSM object: node, way or relation.
>
>Robert.

Hi Robert, the nameless places of worship report looks good, but for me equally 
as important is places of worship with no religion. Any chance of that being 
added?

Cheers,
Mike


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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 2:56 PM Michal Migurski  wrote:

> In some specific cases there may be a conflict of interest where I’d
> recuse myself, but in general it’s much more likely that FB and other
> companies’ need for a high-quality, free, global map with a healthy org
> behind it is *strongly aligned* with OSMF’s interests.
>
Thanks for running for the board, and for inviting discussion of your
candidacy here. Your willingness to address criticisms headon shows good
character.

I realize that the exact meaning of "conflict of interest" (COI) is going
to vary from organization to organization, and from culture to culture.  I
have worked for a number of corporations in the US where we had mandatory
annual COI training.  A COI was anything where you (and any family member
or other organization you are part of) and the corporation had an interest
in the same issue.  Whether you felt that your interests and the interests
of the corporation were aligned didn't matter.   The reason being that if
you had an interest in something you, whether you realize it or not,  are
going to tend to think that what is in your interest is also in the
interest of everyone else.  For example, since both your employer FB and
the OSMF have an interest in "attribution guidelines", I would think you
should recuse yourself from any work or decision making by the board in
this matter, should you be elected.  Just my 2 cents...

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Maps.me comments and OSM notes [Was: Your experience in reaching out to Maps.me users ?]

[Mike Nice]

On 11/12/2020 1:09 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
Now I understand the occurrence of Maps.me POI simultaneously with a 
redundant note. This is even worse than I imagined.


  That clears up something that I had seen in new users.  I had thought 
they first created a note because that is the easiest, then later 
realized they had edit powers and created the items from a previous note.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Turn Restrictions at roundabouts

[Mike Baggaley via Talk-GB]

>After a quick look at his edits locally he has also been removing ref
>tags from roundabouts which seems an odd thing to do.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me - the roundabout is a junction of various 
roads and I do not consider it to be part of a referenced highway.

I note that the wiki indicates that the ref should be added to roundabouts to 
allow fluid routing, but this has relatively recently been added (April 2019) 
and I do not agree. It smacks of tagging for the renderer (in this case a 
routing engine). It seems bizarre to specify that for naming it should not use 
the name of a road it connects, but it should use the ref of a road that 
connects!

Regards,
Mike


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Re: [Talk-us] State of the map in Iowa / Athletics data

[Mike Thompson]

Karson,

Thanks for your assessment.  Unfortunately, I suspect that there are large
parts of the US where the quality and completeness of the OSM data is
similar to what you observed in Iowa.

Perhaps it is already happening and I am not aware of it, but in my
opinion, I think it would be a good idea for the OSMF and US chapter to
coordinate outreach to get more mappers involved. Post secondary education
institutions would be a logical place to start, but I am sure we can come
up with a number of other groups and institutions. As I recall, back in the
day, CloudMade had "ambassadors", and while funding may not be available
for paid ambassadors, volunteer positions with the work coordinated
centrally might be feasible.

I also think a systematic assessment of data quality, (perhaps a slightly
more formalized version of what you have already done in Iowa) if it isn't
already happening, would be a good thing as it would let us know how well
we are doing in producing a usable and useful map for various types of
users, and would focus our outreach efforts.

Regarding your sport specific observations, you might consider editing the
wiki (including the addition of any photos you might have of these
facilities) so that other mappers can benefit from your knowledge.

Just my two cents,

Mike

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:37 PM Karson Sommer 
wrote:

> Over the past month, I have mapped across the state of Iowa, attempting to
> add athletic facilities which were absent from the map. I went county by
> county, using Overpass to identify where likely locations were, ie parks,
> schools, etc. I checked each of these locations and added any pitches that
> were not already present. Additionally, if I came across any major or easy
> to correct issues, I went ahead and fixed the problems.
>
> My objective was to improve the quality of athletic facilities across the
> state so that I can use the data for a school project.
>
> Since I visited pretty much every incorporated city in the state, I had
> the opportunity to gauge the state of the map across Iowa.
>
> Some of my general observations:
> 1. The vast majority of cities have had 0 edits other than imports and
> mechanical QA edits.
> 2. TIGER did not include alleys. Many cities did not have their alleys
> drawn in. Waterloo/Cedar Falls has a population of ~120,000 and still did
> not have their alleys drawn in.
> 3. There are still tons of nodes that should be converted to areas. Some
> schools, cemeteries, parks. The majority of protected areas are still nodes
> despite the DNR owning significant quantities of land. Compare OSM to
> https://iowadnr.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=f9161b90cddb4fcfb35a96901882a4b7/
>
> Some sport specific observations:
> 1. There are still tons of unpaved running tracks in Iowa, mainly at small
> schools. In my years of running, I have only ran on a single cinder track.
> 2. Most rubberized tracks are black, then red, then blue. There were a few
> purple tracks. A very unusual colored green track,
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/783085755
> 3. There are very few irregular shaped tracks. Here is a rubberized,
> rectangular track, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/773898697
> 4. Baseball fields come in all sizes and shapes. Some small towns of 100
> people have high quality fields.
>
> Just thought I would share my notes in case anyone was interested.
>
> Thanks,
> Karson
> karsonkevin2
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 12:09 PM Mario Frasca  wrote:

> Hi.  this is funny, I recently opened an issue with AllTrails, about
> them not attributing the map.
>
> I wonder if we're talking about the same thing: their Android App shows
> a bright colourful Google logo on top of whatever map you configure as
> your base map.

I was talking specifically about their website.  I should have also checked
their app, but I didn't.  My understanding is that regardless of whose
basemap is displayed, the trail in AllTrails come from OSM.  I can reach
out to Ron again about this separate issue if you would like.  Let me know.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

Based on some likely Wiki-Fiddling, I'd like to see the Trunk road 
comments about the US tagging cleaned up to match reality.   (I realize 
that is harder than just reverting to a previous point in time).




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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

On 9/27/2020 11:22 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

I'm on Slack, and I originally posted a comment about this editor on
some roads in Florida (that I'm familiar with), but the responses I
saw seemed to be somewhat "meh" so I didn't pursue it.


  There are so many small arguments "this is a trunk" "no, a motorway" 
"no, primary", so it's often hard to give a firm fact based opinion. 
I'd say this goes a bit beyond that.


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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mike N]

On 9/27/2020 11:22 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

and he has a diary
entry about what he's doing (in addition to what he has on his profile
page about it).  He changed*every single*  trunk road in Georgia to
primary, and from what I can tell, in Florida, too.  I haven't yet
expanded my examination into other states yet.



  Eliminating an OSM class of road in an entire state is an indicator 
of someone with an internal ruleset - something as simple as they don't 
like the color of Mapnik trunk roads in the current rendering scheme.


  It's interesting that someone from Indonesia added some observations 
about eastern US trunk roads to the wiki (which makes no sense). 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dtrunk=1959532=1959503


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Mike Thompson]

I use:
disused:highway=path/footway/etc
or
abandoned:highway=path/footway/etc

If it is totally gone, I still tend to leave the way with "note=There is no
longer a path here, the land manager restored the area to its natural state
sometime before ", (or whatever is appropriate) this provides some
assurance that someone doesn't add it back to OSM using and old source
(imagery, GPX tracks, etc).

Mike

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:36 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/09/2020 16:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Wondering if there was a consensus on tagging an abandoned, no longer very
> usable path (e.g. a path which has become overgrown or is unclear and prone
> to flooding in wetter periods). Something like "path=abandoned"?
>
> My 2p:
>
>
> Perhaps use "trail_visibility" through the lifecycle of the path as it
> changes from "being obvious on the ground" to "not being there at all"?
>
>
> Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about deleting it
> altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path before deleting it to
> something like "note=nothing on this alignment any more".
>
>
> If it's still visible on imagery, I'd be tempted to leave that note there
> (without a highway tag) to stop someone retracing it.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] place=neighborhood on subdivisions?

[Mike N]

On 9/22/2020 9:26 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

    The extra hamlet nodes are import remainders that haven't yet been
converted to landuse areas.   The general landuse zones for that area
have been identified, but do not exactly correspond to the named
subdivisions.   As I get a chance to survey, I divide the landuse into
subdivisions and convert the node to a named area for the subdivision.


Please don't expand these as landuse, please expand them as 
place=neighborhood instead.  Landuse polygons should be congruent to the 
actual land use.


That's a good point: the subdivisions often contain one or more landuse 
basins, clusters of trees, etc.   I've been thinking of them as one big 
blob, but it seem correct on a more micromap level to mark them as 
place=, and identify the smaller landuse areas (which are sometimes all 
residential).


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Re: [Talk-us] place=neighborhood on subdivisions?

[Mike N]

On 9/22/2020 8:56 PM, Karson Sommer wrote:


Looking around the area of the edit, there is a lot of stuff from my 
perspective that seems fishy. There are a bunch of place=hamlet nodes? I 
certainly don't see anything that should be tagged as a hamlet, they all 
look like place=neighborhood to me. Each of these nodes should be mapped 
onto an explicit residential area.


  The extra hamlet nodes are import remainders that haven't yet been 
converted to landuse areas.   The general landuse zones for that area 
have been identified, but do not exactly correspond to the named 
subdivisions.   As I get a chance to survey, I divide the landuse into 
subdivisions and convert the node to a named area for the subdivision.


  I see one multipolygon from back in the day when I was still marking 
subdivision areas as hamlets when converting from a node to an area.


 This is all part of the normal OSM work in progress.



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[Talk-us] place=neighborhood on subdivisions?

[Mike N]

Thoughts on use of place=neighborhood for subdivisions? 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/91255294


  Note that there are many thousands already tagged this way (5000 plus 
in a section of the southeast alone).


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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Thanks Kathleen and Mateusz!

I will thank Ron for the change and try to start a dialog with our DWG
about AllTrails asking their users to contact the DWG directly with map
errors.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 5:21 AM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> AFAIK such text should be perfectly fine
> as long as it is clear displayed
> (not deeply hidden in weird menu,
> not hidden behind basically never clicked
> buttons and so on).
>
> ODBL requires to make users aware of
> source and license, it does not mandate
> a specific text.
>
> For example on my laser cut map I used
> "Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
> as it will be used in way where Polish
> would be clearly expected to be
> understood.
>
> 10 Sep 2020, 18:07 by talk@openstreetmap.org:
>
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>
> It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
> you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
> if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
> Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
> data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
> him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
> directing data issues directly to the DWG.
>
> Yes, it's fine
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:02 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
> without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
> offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
> appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
> have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
> in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> Mike
>
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>
It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
directing data issues directly to the DWG.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] maps/navigation data source

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:09 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 5. Sep 2020, at 16:43, ben.ki...@mail.de wrote:
> >
> > Which are the world regions OSM data is better in? Which are world
> regions OSM data is equal good?
>
>
> generally urban areas and touristic monuments are covered, few countries
> have good coverage in the country side, but there’s a lot to do everywhere,
> it may also depend on the kind of data ;-)
>
> For example housenumbers are incomplete even in the most active countries,
> there are a total of 105 Million of them currently, and growing by 10 M a
> year in the last 5 years. There are 4 times the number of buildings and
> apparently growing faster (many will not even have housenumbers though)
>
I agree with what Martin has stated.  In addition I believe that  in
general Europe, and in particular Germany and the UK, the coverage is
better than the US (I live in the US and have not traveled to either of
those countries in recent years, so cannot speak from first hand
experience).

Navigating to a location you indicate on the map will probably be pretty
good.  Navigating to a particular address may not be as good because, as
Martin stated, coverage of house numbers / addresses in OSM is not yet
complete.

If you are interested in bicycling, mountain biking, hiking and similar
activities, OSM may be your best worldwide source (in a particular locality
there may be local sources that are better).  In the days leading up to a
planned hike or mountain bike ride I will make sure the OSM data in the
area is as up to date as I can make it using the available resources.
However, be aware that some apps only update their OSM data infrequently.

Mike
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[Talk-de] OSM-Kachel-Server für graue Tiles in Europa?

[Elstermann, Mike]

Hallo zusammen,

aus Gründen müssen wir für unsere Kunden prüfen, woher die OSM-Kacheln geladen 
werden. Nicht europäische Server sind da ungewollt (z. B. wg. der 
IP-Adressen-Übermittlung). Gibt es für die grauen Kacheln auch Server in 
Europa, so wie bei den farbigen Kacheln z. B. bei  
https://gauss.openstreetmap.de/? Wenn ja, bitte ich um den Link.

Danke & BG, mikeE.

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Re: [Talk-us] Trouble with getting Superior National Forest

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 7:34 PM brad  wrote:

> I'm with Kevin, SteveA, etc,  here.   In the part of the world that I
> live, a map without national forest & BLM boundaries is very incomplete.
> A useful OSM needs this.   The useful boundary would be the actual
> ownership boundary, not the outer potential ownership boundary.   Messy, I
> know.
>
+1
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Re: [OSM-talk] maps/navigation data source

[Mike Thompson]

Ben,

What type of navigation, car, public transport, bicycle, walking...?

What part of the world will you be navigating in?  Some parts of the world
have better OSM data than others.

Another consideration is how well the app makes use of all of the data in
OSM. e.g. turn restrictions, oneway, types of travel allowed...

I use the free, open source, OSMAND app. https://osmand.net/

Mike


On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:49 PM  wrote:

> Hi,
> Navigation app for my iOS device (Navigator by MapFactor) offers two
> choices regarding maps/navigation data source. These are (i) OpenStreetMaps
> and (ii) TomTom. One can load maps from both sources to app. One seems to
> can use both however not at the same time.
> For decision if it is worth to order TomTom maps for that app I wonder
> which differences between those two data sources should I be aware of
> before deciding if OpenStreetMaps maps will suffice or if I like
> additionally to have a backup by TomTom maps.
>
> Any suggestions?
> Which source of knowledge might help on finding answer to asked question?
>
> -
> FreeMail powered by mail.de - MEHR SICHERHEIT, SERIOSITÄT UND KOMFORT
>
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Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)

[Mike King]

Hi Graeme

I’m not sure I can offer any advice on tagging but I’ve worked in land 
administration and can offer some general guidance on the hierarchy of land 
classification.  My knowledge is mostly Queensland based but I believe all of 
the states have a similar system given that ultimate authority over land is 
federal.  The nested hierarchy is simply Country>State>LGA>suburb (or 
locality)>parcel.  That is parcels comprise suburbs, suburbs comprise LGAs and 
LGAs comprise states so there is a complete coverage or fabric over the land 
and inshore areas.  The regions mentioned will most likely not have any admin 
status unless they are associated with an act of legislation (such as South 
East Queensland which now has defined boundary of the common participating 
councils).  There may be other areas such as Parishes or Counties which are 
still used in legal titles but these are largely no longer used for anything 
other than that due to the fact they were drawn up in an age which predates 
most modern systems and in a time where the local Church as something people 
recognised as a centre of an area.

Maybe someone working with cadastral fabrics in the states can provide more 
detail if required.

Kind Regards

Mike King
GIS Specialist
NHVR Solutions, Corporate Services
National Heavy Vehicle Regulator
P: 07 3309 8880 | E: mike.k...@nhvr.gov.au<mailto:mike.k...@nhvr.gov.au>
PO Box 492 | Fortitude Valley QLD 4006
Gasworks | Level 3, 76 Skyring Terrace| Newstead QLD 4006
www.nhvr.gov.au<http://www.nhvr.gov.au/>
[cid:image001.gif@01D3894F.ABA64A60]<https://www.facebook.com/NHVRegulator/> 
[cid:image002.png@01D3894F.ABA64A60] <https://twitter.com/nhvr>   
[cid:image003.gif@01D3894F.ABA64A60] 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/national-heavy-vehicle-regulator>

From: Graeme Fitzpatrick [mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2020 10:38 AM
To: OSM-Au
Subject: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & 
admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:39, Andrew Harvey 
mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>> wrote:

I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section on 
administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA as 
admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10.  I do not recall any discussion of 
inclusion of regions, districts and townsites nor any previous discussion in 
regard to changing the level of LGA.   The wiki includes a link to a 
downloadable example which is headed "Australian Boundary Tagging _ OSM" but 
with copyright attributed to Government of Western Australia.  I am not sure 
how the current content of wiki was arrived at.  My memory is not perfect so 
perhaps someone can remind me how the wiki content on administrative boundaries 
and the WA Government copyright document was reached.

In NSW there are land districts defined in legislation with administrative 
boards etc so they could be included if we could get permission to use the 
source data (not included in current approval as far as I am aware) and there 
are probably equivalents in other jurisdictions. I think administrative 
boundaries must be sourced from government.   In NSW,  land districts are 
larger in area than local government areas (LGAs) but their influence and 
importance is (in my view) much less than LGAs - the Greater Sydney Local Land 
Services board has the majority of its membership appointed by the Minister for 
Agriculture and few Sydney residents would even know of its existence or role.  
I'd want to put them at level 11, certainly not a higher level than the LGAs.  
I do not think that a larger area automatically warrants a higher 
administrative level.

I am open to changing and developing our guidelines. However some boundaries 
are not necessarily administrative  e.g. Eyre Peninsula (natural region),  
Barossa Valley District (protected area), Illawarra Region, New England Region. 
 Some boundaries might be tourist labels or have local currency but would need 
to be mapped as something other than administrative.

Sorry I'm getting offtopic here...

I'm only familiar with NSW but for example we have a few non-administrative 
regions/districts mapped

Illawarra https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876497 tagged as place=region 
without an admin_level
Northern Beaches https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876483 tagged as 
place=district without an admin_level
Lower North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876484 tagged as 
place=district without an admin_level
Upper North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11373192 tagged as 
place=district without an admin_level
St George https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876480 tagged as 
place=district without an admin_level
others could be added like The Shire, South Coast, Hunter Valley, C

Re: [Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:46 AM Matthew Woehlke 
wrote:

> On 30/08/2020 10.00, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> > What is the actual problem with other people's driveways being marked
> > access=private on the map?  yes, driving on is usually technically not
> > illegal, but unless you are going there because you were invited for
> > have a reason they'd approve of, it's basically not ok.
>
> The objection is that access=private currently *has* an understood
> meaning, and that meaning is *no* access without permission, not what
> you described above.

Sounds like my driveway.  If you are using my driveway without my
permission, either implicit (e.g. delivering a package) or explicit, I am
going to ask you to leave.  I think you are conflating whether something is
"not allowed" with "can be prosecuted as a crime."
Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:53 PM Brian Stromberg 
wrote:

> I would argue that maps can only show the world as the mapmaker wants it
> to be shown...
>

In OSM we should map facts, what is observable on the ground (with the
exception of personal information, and perhaps culturally sensitive sites
whose location has not otherwise been published ). Like Stevea alluded to,
what the data user does with the information is up to them.  Otherwise, we
descend into only relying on opinion as to what facts are "dangerous" or
what facts could "encourage dangerous or bad behavior."  Also, some facts
are embarrassing to individuals or organizations because those facts might
show they are not doing their job.  Of course, they will not come out and
say, please don't publish these facts because it is an embarrassment to us,
they will find some way to say "the facts are dangerous" or "while the
facts portray a bad situation, publishing those facts will only make the
situation worse."

In this case, our obligation is to clearly indicate that access=no or
access=private (in other words, not open to the general public).

We can debate whether this should be tagged tourism=viewpoint, but the
debate should be around whether the object fits our definition, not whether
it may or may not encourage "bad" behavior.  For all we know,
historic=ruins might actually encourage more bad behavior than
tourism=viewpoint.  I am not saying it will, I am saying we don't have any
evidence one way or the other.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020, 9:02 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> On 8/30/20 11:00, Mike Thompson wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 8:04 AM Greg Troxel  > <mailto:g...@lexort.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >Being on someone's land without permission is trespassing, but
> > this is
> >not a crime.
> >
> > not a crime, until the land owner asks you leave and you fail to do so,
> > at least in Colorado.
>
> Exactly same as here and I believe NH.
>
>"Trespassing" is not a crime.
>
>"Trespass after notice" is a crime.
>
> I was merely making the distinction between "public right of access" and
> "trespassing (without notice)", as being very different.
>
Agree with your position,  was just providing additional information.

>
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Re: [Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 8:04 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
>
>   Being on someone's land without permission is trespassing, but this is
>   not a crime.
>
not a crime, until the land owner asks you leave and you fail to do so, at
least in Colorado.

>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Townsend  wrote:

>
> On 19/08/2020 22:44, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
> ...  Instead of suggesting their users edit OSM, they instead instruct
> them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
>
>
> Indeed, and by the time they get to us they are usually "rabbits of
> negative euphoria"* because of the less than stellar support experience
> they've had at AllTrails.
>
> Looking at e.g.
> https://www.alltrails.com/explore/list/yorkshire-wolds-way?b_tl_lat=54.06089919948305_tl_lng=-0.7765960693359375_br_lat=53.9918264806059_br_lng=-0.6293106079101562
> I'm not surprised - to my eyes that really is a crime against cartography.
> Zoom in, and you'll see that that useful-looking north-south path just
> southeast of Thixendale is actually marked "(PRIVATE)", but at any scale
> you might want to plan a route on it isn't.
>
> The explanation we have to give every time goes something along the lines
> of:
>
>- No, we're not Alltrails support, and can't directly affect the way
>that their map represents things.
>- Yes, it's perfectly normal for the OpenStreetMap database to include
>ways along which there is limited access (such as only the householder, or
>perhaps other people in an emergency).
>- Individual maps can choose what data to show and what not, and if a
>map does a poor job of it that's really not an OpenStreetMap problem.
>- While we'd love you to update OpenStreetMap yourself** (since you
>know your local area better than we do) we're more than happy to try and
>fix the OSM data if it's wrong - but we can't guarantee when (or even if)
>any particular OSM-based map will show the changes.
>
> From Ron's quick and positive response to the attribution issue I am
guessing he might be open to having a discussion about these other issues.
Once the attribution issue is actually fixed, should I send him a note
along those lines? Would you (Andy) be the appropriate contact for that
discussion?

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

I have already heard back from the CEO of AllTrails.  See his response
below.  They are going to fix the issue. I am impressed!

=
Thanks for the note, Mike. I know that this is going to sound lame but I
swear it's the truth, and that's that you found a bug on our website. There
should totally be an attribution block at the bottom and we'll get that
fixed up ASAP.

All the best,
Ron
=



On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 4:37 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 20. Aug 2020, at 00:18, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
> Thanks for the link where they mention OSM.  I did find their CEO on
> Linkedin, and just sent him this message:
>
>
>
> thank you! You may also consider adding them here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
> to keep track of the case.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Steve,

Thanks for the confirmation that the attribution is missing.  I will let
you, and the rest of the list, know if and when I hear from them.

Mike

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:51 PM stevea  wrote:

> Thanks very much you two:  I've often meant to do something about
> alltrails' seeming / actual lack of attribution to OSM (if it exists, I
> haven't found it either) and something always seems to creep up and prevent
> me from taking action.  These are most assuredly "our" (OSM's / mine,
> others in OSM) data.  Yea:  let's get this ball rolling and a proper OSM
> attribution!
>
> SteveA
> California
>
> > On Aug 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > Hey Mike,
> > They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you
> found their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users
> edit OSM, they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
> >
> > All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a
> leadership team.
> >
> > Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
> >
> >
> > [1]
> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson 
> wrote:
> > Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of
> OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that
> they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very
> least it appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that
> because I have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and
> they show up in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> > Mike
> >
> > [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
> 
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Clifford,

Thanks for the link where they mention OSM.  I did find their CEO on
Linkedin, and just sent him this message:

==

Hi Ron, I noticed that AllTrails uses OSM data for its trails on the
default "AllTrails Map Layer", while you mention this fact on your site[0],
I didn't see any attribution on the map itself crediting OSM.  The map
should have some text on it such as "Trail data © OpenStreetMap
contributors"[1]

Thanks

Mike

OSM Contributor Specializing in Trails

==


There are several other members of the AllTrails leadership team on
LinkedIn, you might want to reach out to them too.


Mike





[0]
https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:44 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Hey Mike,
> They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you found
> their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users edit
> OSM, they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
>
> All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a
> leadership team.
>
> Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
>
>
> [1]
> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of
>> OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that
>> they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very
>> least it appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that
>> because I have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and
>> they show up in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
>> Mike
>>
>> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
>> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
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>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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[OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
Mike

[0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
trail, park, or city to see their map.)
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] changeset: 89516909

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:42 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> i will fix anything that i missed but the lines are truth.
>
> and it is not a polygon,
>
As far as I know, boundary relations have to, in effect, be polygons, in
other words, they have to close.


> and i broke nothing i fixed what the other guy broke and did it all by
> hand.
>
The boundary relation (126598)  is currently broken. for one thing, it
doesn't close at the location of Williamsberg Square residential area.
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Re: [Talk-us] changeset: 89516909

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:42 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> i will fix anything that i missed but the lines are truth.
>
> and it is not a polygon,
>
As far as I know, boundary relations have to, in effect, be polygons, in
other words, they have to close.


> and i broke nothing i fixed what the other guy broke and did it all by
> hand.
>
The boundary relation (126598)  is currently broken. for one thing, it
doesn't close at the location of Williamsberg Square residential area.
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Re: [Talk-us] changeset: 89516909

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 5:24 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> tiger is up to date on the web map using the current data i just think he
> picked the wrong year,
>
That relation was first created in 2009.  According to the source tag, it
used 2008 Tiger data, so the original mapper probably used the best
available TIGER data at the time.


> also all he got was a white line in his first try.
> Way: 813726663
>
That way needs to be added to the relation, and the relation must close.
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Re: [Talk-us] changeset: 89516909

[Mike Thompson]

1) Best not to delete and start over as the history will be lost.
2) Do you have an accurate source that has a license that is compatible
with OSM?   Could you share a link to it?
3) General observation is that there is a lot of territory that is not
enclosed by any admin level 8 boundary, which in a built up area like this,
seems unusual to me.

Mike

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 5:04 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> this is not the current boundary, could be more than 10 years + old,
>
> can’t the whole relation, #126598, northbrook, be deleted and then put
> back in.
>
> i tried by hand but this is to much to trace.
>
>
> Monday, August 17, 2020 4:43 PM -05:00 from Paul Johnson <
> ba...@ursamundi.org>:
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:02 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > wrote:
>
> can somebody who knows how to use Tiger data fix this ?
>
>
> Fix what??
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Re: [Talk-us] Anyone familiar with Rocky Mountain National Park (RMNP)?

[Mike Thompson]

Mateusz, Kevin, Thanks for the advice.  I will probably reach out to the
original mapper again, and if no source is provided, delete the names.

Mike

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 11:27 AM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> The 'names' look like someone's field notes: 'Tarn A', 'Tarn B', 'Tarn C',
> 'Tarn Off the Map', 'Tarn Off the Trail', rather than something that the
> locals would call them.
>
> Of course, people's field notes leak into imported data sources all the
> time.
>
> For the sake of not firing the first shot in an edit war, since the mapper
> is responsive, ask if there's any objection to removing the questionable
> names?
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 3:15 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> I thought the names of these water bodies[0] in RMNP were suspect because:
>> 1) The names do not appear in the GNIS,
>> 2) The names do not appear on the USGS topo
>> 3) The names do not appear in the NHD
>> 4) The names do not appear on the RMNP map that is handed out to visitors
>> 5) I have hiked past here several times but have never seen signs naming
>> these bodies of water.
>> 6) I asked the mapper that added the names what their source was, and
>> they said they didn't remember.
>> 7) I have several hiking books covering RMNP and none mention these water
>> bodies using these names.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> [0]
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681825
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451427
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681824
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681823
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451428
>>
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>
>
> --
> 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin
>
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[Talk-us] Anyone familiar with Rocky Mountain National Park (RMNP)?

[Mike Thompson]

I thought the names of these water bodies[0] in RMNP were suspect because:
1) The names do not appear in the GNIS,
2) The names do not appear on the USGS topo
3) The names do not appear in the NHD
4) The names do not appear on the RMNP map that is handed out to visitors
5) I have hiked past here several times but have never seen signs naming
these bodies of water.
6) I asked the mapper that added the names what their source was, and they
said they didn't remember.
7) I have several hiking books covering RMNP and none mention these water
bodies using these names.

Mike

[0]
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681825
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451427
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681824
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681823
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451428
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Re: [Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 153, Issue 3

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM Bob Gambrel  wrote:

> It seems to me that having a relationship is absolutely appropriate and
> that it should have the name of entire trail/route, just as you have done.
>
> It also seems to me that having a name on individual segments (the local
> name) is also appropriate. I don't think this is inconsistent and in fact,
> seems very desirable. Highway 65 (a state route that has an OSM relation,
> and is named as such in the relation) also has segments in some places that
> are named "Central Avenue" by the city and locals, and in other places are
> named "Highway 65", again by the locals.
>
> I don't think labeling the individual segments maps for the renderer
> primarily. It attaches a local name to the individual way, which is what
> OSM expects, I believe. It also has rendering advantages, which makes the
> map more useful to real people, not just cartographers.
>
> Thanks.  That seems to be the safest approach as perhaps some data
consumers don't yet process route relations.
Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Mike Nice]

On 8/4/2020 7:21 AM, pangoSE wrote:

I suggest we wait for ruffle to be ready and then compile P2 to first wasm and 
then decompile it into C and then translate it into rust.
It can then be cleaned up and shipped to both as a desktop application and a 
wasm binary run in the browser.
ruffle ->  wasm -> C -> rust is unlikely to be useful. Sure it might 
run, but all program comments will have been stripped.  The automatic C 
-> Rust step is likely to generate unsafe mode code that must be cleaned 
up to fully see the benefits of Rust.   And finally, the result would 
not be maintainable over the long term without a huge amount of cleanup.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Mike Nice]

Air is not a zero security risk, but the exposure is much lower than the 
old days of Flash.


I hate the security problems that came from Flash, as well as almost 
anything from Adobe, but I think the premise of this project to improve 
maintainability is important.   Although not part of this proposed 
project, it is a gateway that could allow migration to an open standard 
in the future.



On 8/2/2020 9:49 AM, john whelan wrote:
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding 
it purely from a security point of view. Adobe does not have a good 
reputation in the security world. Comments certainly have been made 
about Flash.


I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software 
that could cause problems for our mappers.





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Re: [OSM-talk] Proper use of route relations?

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:38 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> No
>
> Relations are not collections
>
Thanks!  That is what I thought, but there are so many such relations in
this area that I thought I better check.  I'll wait for a few more opinions
to roll in, and if they are along the lines of what you are saying, I will
make some edits.

Mike
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[OSM-talk] Proper use of route relations?

[Mike Thompson]

I have come across a number of examples[0] of route relations where all the
trails in a given park have been put into a single relation.  Is this a
recommended use for route relations?

Mike

[0]
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10962561
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8409089
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[Talk-us] Mtb Route Relations

[Mike Thompson]

Let's say you have a trail in the US National Forest that was specifically
created for mountain biking. It has a name and a FS trail number. It is
represented in OSM by three ways currently: before a bridge, the bridge,
and after the bridge.

Is this a good candidate for a route relation?
Should name=* tag appear just on the relation, or on all of the member ways
as well?
Should ref=* tag appear just on the relation, or on all of the members as
well?

I am assuming that physical and legal access tags should only appear on the
member ways, even if every member has the same value, right?

Just don't want to break anything...

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest refs/names

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 4:26 PM  wrote:

> That seems sensible. What about the general case (i.e. no continuity
> with a county road?) - to add "road" or not?
>
Do you mean the same physical road has two names, or just that the county
road and the forest road are connected? If you are just talking about being
connected, I don't think it matters.  I would still add "Road" to the name.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest refs/names

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 1:33 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> Could we get the US Road Tagging page updated to reflect common name
> practice instead of encouraging the duplication of the ref in the name?  Or
> is that going to spark drama?
>
I am in favor of the change.  The name tag should be for the name only.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Labeling forestry service roads/tracks

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:10 AM brad  wrote:

> Hmmm, interesting.   I'm not sure they compact very many roads around
> here (CO).

I have lived, or spent time in, rural parts of four states (MN, IA, OH and
CO) and I have never seen an unpaved road compacted.  They get graded once
a year perhaps to remove the wash boards, and some have a coating of
something applied to keep the dust down.
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Re: [Talk-us] Labeling forestry service roads/tracks

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:46 AM  wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Good idea on the route references. What should the network be set to?
>
> Others on this list are better able to answer that question, but my
opinion is network=US:FS:
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Re: [Talk-us] Labeling forestry service roads/tracks

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 4:49 PM  wrote:

>  For
> roads that appear to be public access (e.g. to go to a lake) but are
> obviously even more minor than tertiary roads I label highway=unclassified.
>
highway=unclassified are for roads that connect small towns, or for "local
traffic", while access to a lake could be considered "local traffic", I
would think it would be better if these would be highway=service, or
highway=track.


> The US Topo map gives forest road references so I add ref FS .
>
That is what I have been doing as well. Some are recommending that they be
made into route relations, which I am starting to do.

>
> TIGER seems to be at best very coarse, at worst fictional.
>
+1

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Planned revert of added surface and tracktype tags without local knowledge in various countries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 2:23 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

>
> * Two adjacent sections of track being tagged as "grade 2" and "grade
>   4" not because of any difference in road surface, but because one has
>   a line of grass between the ruts and the other doesn't.
>
In rural areas where I have spent time people often only put gravel where
the wheels contract the ground, and leave the middle part of the road/track
as is (which is often grass/short native vegetation).  This is done to save
money. The result is that from overhead imagery, it may appear not to be
gravel, and thus may be incorrectly tagged at a lower tracktype.

>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Q3 2020 Quarterly project Cycle Infrastructure

[Mike Baggaley]

>> this point if we're actually advocating the hitherto undocumented  usage of
>> segregated=yes to mean 'cycleway is separate from main carriageway' because
>> I suspect I'm not the only one whose been using it as per the wiki to show
>> where bicycles and pedestrians have their own designated lanes within a
>> shared use cycleway. We can't use both.

>+1  (separate lanes for cycles & pedestrians)
>+1 for "segregated" referring to separate (or not) pedestrian and cycle lanes 
>in a shared cycleway

There should be no need for a tag to indicate whether a cycleway is separated 
from the road, as if the cycleway is part of the road it should not be tagged 
as highway=cycleway at all - it should be tagged as highway=(something else) + 
cycleway=*.  The https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle  page in the wiki 
is quite clear that there is only one way to map cycle lanes (i.e. not 
separated from road) whereas there are two ways to map cycle tracks (separated 
from a road). 

Regards,
Mike



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Re: [Talk-us] access=private on driveways

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:46 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:


> So a router that does not allow use of access=private for a final
> segment, by default, is broken.
+1
Even if we go with the idea that driveways are not access=private unless
posted, there are some driveways that are posted, and people (delivery
people, service people, invited guests. etc.) will need to be routed to the
residences at the end of those driveways. The router should just give a
warning to the user, such as "the final nn miles/km of your route are on
private roads".

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Deleting tiger:reviewed=no/addr:street for routes (was: Streaming JOSM -- suggestions?)

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Jmapb  wrote:

>  - The access -- somewhat common to find a pubic road imported with
access=private, so if I suspect this I'll leave the tiger:reviewed=no tag
until access can be confirmed, and add a note or fixme. (It's also quite
common to find driveways imported as access=private. When surveying, I tend
to remove the private tag if the driveway isn't gated or signed private,
since access=private will prevent routing to the house at the end of the
driveway, sometimes even ending the route on a different residential road
that's physically closer to the house than the road the driveway's
connected to.)
I always thought that driveways to private residences and private roads
(whether gated or not) should be tagged as access=private.  Often these
private roads are posted with a sign that says something like "Private
road, no trespassing", or "Private Road, Residents and Guests Only."

Mike
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[Talk-de] Tagging historischer, aber nicht amtlicher Straßennamen?

[Elstermann, Mike]

Hallo zusammen,

wie kennzeichnet man eine Straße richtig, die es früher gab, die heute noch als 
Bauwerk vorhanden, aber nicht im aktuellen amtlichen Straßenverzeichnis geführt 
wird?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11609716#map=18/51.49553/11.97901=D

Mike Elstermann
Von meinem iPad gesendet
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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths on Wimbledon Common

[Mike Baggaley]

>I have been doing some tidying based on Osmose, including the warning for 
>highway=footway foot=yes, which is often left over >from a preset in Potlatch 
>1.
>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/87672607
>
>I got a changeset comment querying the edit.

Hi Andrew,

My understanding is that highway=footway with no access tags has an implied 
foot=yes. This, however is entirely different from highway=footway + foot=yes 
which explicitly states that access is allowed. Without the explicit tag, 
whilst routing will be the same, it could just be that the mapper adding the 
path did not know whether access was allowed. In my view, if there is a rule 
check, it should be checking that there IS either a foot= tag or an access=tag 
and warning if there isn't. For me however, the biggest problem is ways tagged 
with highway=footway, access=no and foot=yes - this really should be warned 
about, as without reading the change history and notes it is not possible to 
determine whether the access=no was intended to indicate that other access than 
foot is disallowed (which is superfluous) or was added to say the path has been 
closed, forgetting that foot=yes will override it. The feedback comment 
mentioned 'designated' - I think foot=designated should ideally only be used in 
conjunction with the designation= tag, as otherwise you don't know what 
designation designates the access. There are also lots of ways tagged with 
values of 'designated' for transport modes where the mapper had an incorrect 
understanding of what it meant, so without the accompanying designation tag, 
these values should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Regards,
Mike


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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN & USRN Tagging

[Mike Baggaley]

I note that ref:usrn was added to the Key:ref wiki in May 2017 and I can see no 
real reason to add GB into the key, especially if it is upper case. There are 
lots of examples of other country specific tags which do not include a country 
code on that page, in fact I can't see a single one that does include a country 
code.

Regards,
Mike

>Agree with ref:GB:uprn and ref:GB:usrn.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Old phone line or old power line?

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM  wrote:
>
>  That is standard construction for the old above ground telephone lines in
> the US - many times those lines would run along a rail bed, perhaps even
> for railroad signaling purposes.
Thanks Steve!
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Re: [OSM-talk] Old phone line or old power line?

[Mike Thompson]

Thanks François!

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 3:51 PM François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Le sam. 27 juin 2020 à 20:08, Mike Thompson  a
> écrit :
>
>> Any idea whether this is an old powerline or an old phone line?  Photo is
>> geotagged, so if you download it and drop it into JOSM you can see the
>> larger context.
>>
>
> IMHO it's an old low voltage power line
> I'd recommend:
> abandoned:power=minor_line
> cables=2
> operator=?
> voltage=?
>
> Pole can be described with this:
> power=pole
> material=wood
> operator=?
> line_attachment=pin
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Old phone line or old power line?

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 12:21 PM Bryan Housel  wrote:
>
> I’d tag as `abandoned:power=minor_line` since you said it is down in
places.
>
> It is impossible to tell from the picture what its original purpose was,
but this doesn’t matter much if you just want to get it mapped.
Thanks Brian, I will proceed along those lines. I would still be interested
to hear from experts in the utility field as to what the original purpose
of the lines were.  Since this is in the US, one case assume standard
household voltage (given the size of the insulators and the fact that it
terminiantes at an old house in ruins), which back in the day was 110.  In
which case, there would be a considerably percentage voltage drop over the
many km distnace this line spans.

Mike
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[OSM-talk] Old phone line or old power line?

[Mike Thompson]

Any idea whether this is an old powerline or an old phone line?  Photo is
geotagged, so if you download it and drop it into JOSM you can see the
larger context.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6cMueDbGJPdz8Es77

It is near the location of this node:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/51241693

It runs for many km more or less along the track that above node is part of.

Wire is bare uninsulated. Most, or perhaps all, poles are still standing.
Wire is down in places.

How would you recommend mapping/tagging?


Thanks in advance for your help,

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?

[Mike Thompson]

Another feature that is often found at summits around here is a roughly
constructed shelter, such as:
https://images.app.goo.gl/KogTgXChrGx93Ab96

These have been made over the years by various hikers stacking rocks in a
semicircle.  One can sit down inside them and obtain some shelter from the
wind.  Some summits have multiple such shelters.

Mike

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 1:07 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> > Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?
> At least in Colorado they are.  Nowadays they are often pieces of pvc pipe.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?
At least in Colorado they are.  Nowadays they are often pieces of pvc pipe.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:35 PM brad  wrote:
>
>  There are a few cases where property owners have put up illegal, or very
misleading signs.
I have come across this too.  The signs are on private property, but face
you as you are traveling on a legal FS road and looking straight ahead.  It
makes it seem like the road is private from that point forward if you don't
know otherwise.
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 8:08 AM Bradley White 
wrote:
>
> > Somewhat related, in the cases where an official FS road or trail
crosses private property, does the FS have an easement, or is it kind of an
informal arrangement?
>
> Best way to know for sure is ground survey, but generally USFS system
> roads & trails (also available for viewing using the USFS data extract
> tool) over private land are public easements. If a section of the
> system road/trail 'disappears' over a piece of land, it might not be
> open to the public. An on-the-ground survey is usually required in
> those cases.
Thanks again.  On the ground survey shows nothing more than an official
looking USFS TH sign/board.  There are no signs indicating one is crossing
private property, nor are there signs indicating one must stay on the
trail.  After about a half mile of hiking one does come to several of those
yellow property boundary signs. County level data does show the initial
part of the trail to be on private property.  Just curious as in other
cases landowners have posted "no trespassing" signs blocking trails.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:59 AM Bradley White 
wrote:
>
> > While it certainly may exist, I'm not aware of a disparity between the
"congressionally declared boundary" and any other boundary of a NF,
including "physical land that the NF actually owns and manages."  How would
anyone know where this latter boundary is?
>
> The declared boundaries are administrative boundaries that limit the
> extent in which each NF *may* manage land, but only land owned by the
> USFS within these boundaries is actually protected at
> 'protect_class=6' criteria. Both of these boundaries are available for
> download using the USFS Data Extract tool, and specifically in
> California, the surface ownership boundary of each national forest is
> included in the CPAD database. They can also usually be verified on
> the ground by yellow NF property markers, as stated previously. In
> fact, it is the congressionally declared boundary that is impossible
> to verify on the ground.
>
> Having lived in multiple places within a "declared" NF boundary, the
> NF affords no protection on the land I have lived on. There might be
> some extra hoops to jump through when pulling permits, but that
> certainly isn't enough to include it within a 'protect_class=6'
> boundary.
Thanks for the clear explanation.  That conforms to my understanding.

If anything, owning property in a NF puts on obligation on the FS, not the
land owner.  Specifically the FS has to allow the landowner access to the
property if it can't be obtained in any other manner.

Somewhat related, in the cases where an official FS road or trail crosses
private property, does the FS have an easement, or is it kind of an
informal arrangement?

If we can't have both in OSM, including only US Gov owned lands in the
National Forests is preferable in my opinion.

Mike





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Re: [OSM-talk] Paid mapping

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Jun 23, 2020, 00:07 by miketh...@gmail.com:
>
> "except for the preceding, we follow OSM community norms."
>
> This should be enough to ban of all their mapping accounts until changing
> their plan
> (I assume that they either backtracked that or stopped editing)
>
They said that they were going to do some additional training for their
staff.  They did give some indication they would make some changes, but I
didn't follow up. Part of the problem is that another, non local, mapper
got really enthusiastic a couple of years ago about changing all unpaved
roads to highway=track.  Amazon Logistics people see this, and if they are
adding a road, they perhaps compare it to the existing content nearby, and
try to mimic that tagging.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paid mapping

[Mike Thompson]

I know we are talking about Apple mappers here, but I wanted to point out
the Amazon Logistics mappers have been very responsive to changeset
comments. However:
1) One of their leaders explained their criteria for a track.  There were
about four, and that was followed with "except for the preceding, we follow
OSM community norms."  I responded that they should always follow community
norms.
2) Changeset comments, as is true for a lot of mappers, are not super
helpful, e.g. "Added a track road" (not new information, I could tell that
from the data), and then they cite a generic collection of sources (which
one did you use?). Sometimes the sources don't make sense, such as "Street
Side" when there is no Street Side content in the given area.

Mike

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 3:56 PM Andreas Vilén 
wrote:

> Maybe the mappers think unclassified equals what we call highway=road, as
> in no classification yet determined?
>
> It’s a fairly common misconception among new mappers.
>
> /Andreas
>
> Skickat från min iPhone
>
> > 22 juni 2020 kl. 23:50 skrev Martin Koppenhoefer  >:
> >
>
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 10:54 PM Bradley White 
wrote:
>
> > A relation for all would be ok too, as long as the private inholdings
are
> > not removed from the NF (which I think has been done in some cases).
>
>
> IMO, a tagging scheme that better represents the meaning of these two
> boundaries would be:
> 1. 'boundary=protected_area' around fee simple NF land ownership,
> since this describes the actual protected areas of land
> 2. 'boundary=administrative' (with a not-yet-existing 'admin_level')
> around declared NF boundaries, since this is an administrative
> boundary for the NF and doesn't necessarily show what land is actually
> managed by the NF.
The above is a good and workable solution in my opinion.
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries (Mike Thompson)

[Mike Thompson]

Steve,

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying, but:

1) Not all "inholdings" are completely surrounded by the National Forest,
they are "bites" off the edge in some cases.  I don't think one can have an
inner ring and an outer ring which are at all coincident (they can't share
an edge) and still have a valid multipolygon.
2) Holes (inner rings) are not part of the polygon.  Thus if one did an
analysis of (for example) a series of points, any points that fall in one
of the holes would not register as being inside the multipolygon, even
though they are inside the outer ring.

Mike

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 6:39 PM stevea  wrote:

> Continuing from my previous post, we even have an especially data-compact
> (efficient) way of representing that:  the member of the forest relation
> which is an inholding (tagged with role inner) IS the polygon of, say, a
> private residence "inside of" the forest.
>
> For example (I'm making this up), say we have a national forest with a
> small shopping area (for food, supplies...) near its center for
> convenience.  I could see one polygon (tagged landuse=retail, name=ABC
> Forest Shopping Center) both BEING exactly that, AND being included in the
> (enclosing) forest multipolygon as a member tagged "inner."  Voilà,
> double-duty and done.
>
> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 5:45 PM stevea  wrote:
>
> A large thank-you to Kevin for that deeply informative post.
>
> > brad  wrote:
> > I think its simpler and better to just create an inner boundary as was
done with the Coconino NF
>
> The Coconio NF (relation/10956348) hasn't "an" inner boundary, it has
hundreds of them.  I'm not sure I understand what Brad is saying is
"simpler and better" here, as a well-constructed multipolygon in OSM is "a
well-constructed multipolygon in OSM."  We already know how to do that so I
don't think we want to develop something else to represent the same thing.
>
> Is Brad or Mike proposing something else, like two multipolygons to
describe one national forest?
One polygon for the administrative boundary of the NF which was established
by Congress.
Zero or more polygons describing limitations on access (no need for
polygons to for access=yes, we can assume that in a NF generally), whether
they be due to private ownership, or other reasons.
The above are two separate concepts, so it is ok to have two separate OSM
elements, in my opinion.
A relation for all would be ok too, as long as the private inholdings are
not removed from the NF (which I think has been done in some cases).

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 6:31 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:
>
> > I was thinking just create separate polygons for inholdings, tagged
with access=private and possibly ownership=private
>
> While many Americans like to put "no trespassing" signs on their private
property, a privately owned parcel is not access=private unless there are
signs on the roads and paths leading into it which say so.
I don't know enough to know whether you can be prosecuted for trespassing
if it isn't posted, but if the owner shows up and asks you to leave, you
are compelled to leave.  Not too big of a deal if you are just passing
through, but if you have set up camp, it could be a hassle (particularly if
late). In any event, I don't want an encounter with a landowner due to my
trespassing, posted or not.


> Many privately-owned parcels in the national forests are used for forestry
> only, and there is no issue with crossing through on a road or trail in
> many cases.
>
Not true here in northern Colorado.  There are lots of small inholdings,
some with year round residences, some with seasonal cabins, and some that
people use for their RVs.  There is probably not an issue with passing
through on an established trail or road, but if one is travelling cross
country, aka bushwacking, it could be an issue. I also did recently
encounter private property while on an established trail  (the owner had
posted no trespassing signs). I wish I had known that ahead of time.
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 5:45 PM stevea  wrote:
>
> I think we need both as well.  I've been doing this while watching the
evolution of how we best do this as I participate in a "do our best, always
better" efforts to accomplish this.  Even now!
>
> The idea of the first kind is simply a relation with a focus on the / a
polygon with the outer (-most) membership.  The idea of the second kind is
one of these plus a carefully crafted inner membership, often made up of a
complex inholding distribution containing many sometimes complex themselves
inner polygons.
Thanks Steve for your insightful comments.

I was thinking just create separate polygons for inholdings, tagged with
access=private and possibly ownership=private

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest boundaries

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM Paul White  wrote:
>
>
>
> Which one would be better? Looking forward to feedback.
I think we need both. I am open to suggestions as how to accomplish that.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] fake, edit, fake map.

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:08 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> How old is the satellite view, do we even know, or are we making a fake
map here.
In JOSM, if you right click on Bing Imagery, Show Tile Info, it will
display "Metadata Capture Date", which is the date, or range of dates, when
the image was captured.  I don't think other sources have this feature.

>
> what about fact checking ?
The details you have added (fence, way not running all the way through,
etc.) are wonderful, but probably no overhead imagery source, no matter how
recent, is going to show that detail, especially with the tree cover in
that area.  Remote mappers can do a lot of good, sometimes they get things
wrong.  It is great that you are local and can correct these things.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] fake, edit, fake map.

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:08 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> How old is the satellite view, do we even know, or are we making a fake
map here.
In JOSM, if you right click on Bing Imagery, Show Tile Info, it will
display "Metadata Capture Date", which is the date, or range of dates, when
the image was captured.  I don't think other sources have this feature.

>
> what about fact checking ?
The details you have added (fence, way not running all the way through,
etc.) are wonderful, but probably no overhead imagery source, no matter how
recent, is going to show that detail, especially with the tree cover in
that area.  Remote mappers can do a lot of good, sometimes they get things
wrong.  It is great that you are local and can correct these things.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

JOSM validator does report a number of errors and warnings in the area, but
I don't think they are related to this specific change set.

Mike

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:16 AM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:53 AM <80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru> wrote:
> >
> > yes, and i will wait to see if anyone gets it.
> We can hardly evaluate the issue if you don't share with us your concerns.
>
> This edit was made by someone working for Amazon Logistics.  They have
> been very receptive to specific constructive feedback.
>
> The only  very minor issue I see is:
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/816385173 and
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/703399318 could probably be combined.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

JOSM validator does report a number of errors and warnings in the area, but
I don't think they are related to this specific change set.

Mike

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:16 AM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:53 AM <80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru> wrote:
> >
> > yes, and i will wait to see if anyone gets it.
> We can hardly evaluate the issue if you don't share with us your concerns.
>
> This edit was made by someone working for Amazon Logistics.  They have
> been very receptive to specific constructive feedback.
>
> The only  very minor issue I see is:
> * https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/816385173 and
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/703399318 could probably be combined.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:53 AM <80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru> wrote:
>
> yes, and i will wait to see if anyone gets it.
We can hardly evaluate the issue if you don't share with us your concerns.

This edit was made by someone working for Amazon Logistics.  They have been
very receptive to specific constructive feedback.

The only  very minor issue I see is:
* https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/816385173 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/703399318 could probably be combined.

Mike
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:53 AM <80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru> wrote:
>
> yes, and i will wait to see if anyone gets it.
We can hardly evaluate the issue if you don't share with us your concerns.

This edit was made by someone working for Amazon Logistics.  They have been
very receptive to specific constructive feedback.

The only  very minor issue I see is:
* https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/816385173 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/703399318 could probably be combined.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

What is the issue?  It looks legit to me. Am I missing something?

Mike

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Added a service road.
>
> Edited about  hours ago by
>
> Version #1 · Changeset #86698283
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/k6Zjnqm
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] fake, edit, FAKE map.

[Mike Thompson]

What is the issue?  It looks legit to me. Am I missing something?

Mike

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Added a service road.
>
> Edited about  hours ago by
>
> Version #1 · Changeset #86698283
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/k6Zjnqm
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] USGS Topo layer for JOSM?

[Mike Thompson]

Dave,

Can you provide the URL so those of us that no longer have access can
manually add it back in?

Thanks,
Mike

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:40 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> I use it quite often.  It is good for names of water bodies.  However, I
> just checked now, and it doesn't seem to be listed on the imagery menu any
> more.
>
> Mike
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:37 PM Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm still seeing it and using it for my mapping chores in Alaska.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:27 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:
>>
>>> Sometime pretty recently the USGS topographic map layer disappeared from
>>> JOSM and I don’t even see it in the available layers to add back in. I
>>> don’t use it a lot, but when I want to verify the direction of flow of a
>>> stream, etc. it comes in very useful.
>>>
>>> Is it just my configuration having a problem or has this layer been
>>> officially removed?
>>>
>>> —Tod
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>>
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Re: [Talk-us] USGS Topo layer for JOSM?

[Mike Thompson]

I use it quite often.  It is good for names of water bodies.  However, I
just checked now, and it doesn't seem to be listed on the imagery menu any
more.

Mike

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:37 PM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I'm still seeing it and using it for my mapping chores in Alaska.
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:27 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:
>
>> Sometime pretty recently the USGS topographic map layer disappeared from
>> JOSM and I don’t even see it in the available layers to add back in. I
>> don’t use it a lot, but when I want to verify the direction of flow of a
>> stream, etc. it comes in very useful.
>>
>> Is it just my configuration having a problem or has this layer been
>> officially removed?
>>
>> —Tod
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Google earth, Google maps

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> I am not copying any thing, just looking at a satellite view from google
.
>
> it was a ruler.
This isn't really about OSM, it is about the Google Maps Terms of Service,
which by using Google Maps, you agree to abide by.  This states in part:
"you may not ...use Google Maps/Google Earth to create or augment any other
mapping-related dataset..." This would include the ruler I would think as
well as "looking at a satellite view."
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Google earth, Google maps

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> I am not copying any thing, just looking at a satellite view from google
.
>
> it was a ruler.
This isn't really about OSM, it is about the Google Maps Terms of Service,
which by using Google Maps, you agree to abide by.  This states in part:
"you may not ...use Google Maps/Google Earth to create or augment any other
mapping-related dataset..." This would include the ruler I would think as
well as "looking at a satellite view."
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Google earth, Google maps

[Mike Thompson]

According to the Google Maps Terms of service, you cannot use it in any way
to make another map. [0]  I would think that would include using its ruler
if the purpose of using the ruler is to edit OSM.

[0] 2.d of https://www.google.com/help/terms_maps/

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:47 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> because i was asked to change my edit based on my own ruler measurement,
>
> but it was just a ruler on google maps.
>
>
> Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:42 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us
> :
>
> If you were not copying Google Maps then why you were using the ruler?
>
> Why using ruler on Google Maps would be even necessary?
>
> Jun 13, 2020, 17:31 by t...@openstreetmap.org:
>
> i put them as a source i used a ruler on there map.
>
>
>
> Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:20 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
> t...@openstreetmap.org >:
>
>
>
>
> Jun 13, 2020, 16:59 by eric.lad...@gmail.com:
>
> Yeah, be careful with Google Maps.  It's owned and created by a company
> and if you copy from it and they can prove it, they could sue the OSM
> Foundation into oblivion.  They used to even have their OWN satellites to
> obtain imagery.  That's serious money.
>
> That is not the main problem. Main problem is that it goes our own
> fundamental rules.
> Mappers must not use other maps* even if whoever hold copyright is unable
> to sue for some reason.
>
> And "they can prove it" part may be misleading - you are not allowed to
> copy even if you think that
> you can hide the copying so that noone will notice it.
>
> *that is more complicated, we are must not copyrighted data on
> incompatible licenes -
> but if you are unsure what it means do not use other maps and ask for help
> before doing this
>
>
> Typically, with local edits, I put "Local knowledge" as the source.
> Sounds more highbrow than "my eyeballs".
>
> I usually put survey/memory depending on how recent my data is.
>
> IMO, if somebody is challenging one of your local edits, if they are not
> local also, they should be told as much and sent on their way - UNLESS it's
> something that relates to a mapping standard or best practice.  Then, learn
> from your mistakes and move on.
>
> +1
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> this was a tool on the map that measured distance.
>
> Have you copied that map? I am unsure how the distance measuring tool
> relates to "why are you telling me I can not use google as a map source"?
>
>
>
> Saturday, June 13, 2020 9:29 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us <
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org>:
>
> You are not allowed to use Google Maps as source.
>
> Have you used Google Maps to edit OSM?
>
> "since all the maps on OSM are old news like in my local area 7 months
> old."
>
> FYI, world is larger than your local area.
>
>
> Jun 13, 2020, 16:08 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:
>
> If you people want me to prove my edit by adding a source, and a person
> from the data group as an editor,
>
> asks me to prove it, and i redo my edit and he does not get back to me,
> why are you telling me I can not use
>
> google as a map source, since all the maps on OSM are old news. like in my
> local area 7 months old.
>
>
>
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