Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Thanks for the feedback, I agree. I have given them their unique Logainm
ref tags and, in an effort to help distinguish them, I have given them an
alt_name "Rahard - Robeen Parish" etc. I leave all three with the name=
Rahard.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Patrick Matthews 
wrote:

> Brian,
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Brian Tuffy 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, I have started mapping some "X (part of)" townlands as exclaves
> now
> > (part of the 'parent' townland relation). This works well for the most
> > part. I noticed that the 'parent' Townland usually has an additional
> area,
> > for example "including 10A 1R 7P  dd. portion". This area matches the
> area
> > of the exclave, so that makes sense.
> >
> > Here is a difficult example though, Although it says "Part of Rahard" it
> is
> > not obvious that it is an exclave as the 'parent' townland is about 4
> > townlands to the North West (There is even a third unrelated "Rahard" to
> > the west which makes it difficult). I can identify the correct parent
> > townland by matching the E.D. and the "area ...d.d. portion". The areas
> > match, so it IS an exclave, but a strange one. The areas are relatively
> the
> > same size and its not obvious why it is an exclave and not another
> townland
> > with the same name. I will leave it alone for now.
> > exclave:
> > http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=16=53.63809=-9.
> > 10907=B00TTFFF
> > Parent:
> > http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=17=53.67605=-9.
> > 161=B00TTFFF
>
>
>
> They're in different civil parishes but have been drawn into the same DED.
> In this case, I would say that
> they're two separate townlands which just happen to have the same name and
> are being incorrectly
> treated as two parts of the same townland.(This is a different issue to
> having a single townland "split"
> between civil parishes.) I suspect that they will have different logainm
> references as well. I made a
> similar change last week to the two Corravillas in Shercock ED (Cavan) when
> I was finishing up the
> EDs there.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Another somewhat unrelated question is, Could "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)"
> > (Ball Dumha Cinn Aille) be an exclave of nearby "Dookinnely (Calvy)"
> (Dumha
> > Cinn Aille)? In Irish, Ball can mean 'part of' and we are on Achill
> Island
> > here, so it is in the Gaeltacht. As far as I understand the (Calvy)
> ending
> > is a family name in the area. The townland was named after landowners?
> The
> > common (Calvy) part in both townlands suggests they are linked. I somehow
> > think that "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)" should still remain as a separate
> > townland, at least for now.
> > http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?
> > action=doNameSearch=0=0=Submit&
> > familyname=calvy===MAYO&
> > unionname==
> >
> >
>
> I'd be inclined to leave it as is.
>
>
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Brian Hollinshead <
> br...@hollinshead.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Re Exclave
> > > try Kiltiernan in County Dublin in townlands.ie
> > >
> > > and Kinnitty as CP, both enclaves belong to eslewhere external CPs
> > >
> > > On 17 February 2017 at 16:03, Rory McCann 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > > Hash: SHA1
> > > >
> > > > On 17/02/17 16:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > > > > Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and
> > > > > Y", as it says on the wiki page. If it is "X or Y" then it should
> > > > > be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It looks like Logainm treats "X
> > > > > or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names have one ref tag. The
> > > > > thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or Milebush" but in
> > > > > OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
> > > > > https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx
> > > >
> > > > OK, that sounds a little more complicated. I think I'll leave it
> alone
> > > > then. We can always just find townlands with an "and" and without a
> > > > logainm:ref and manually add them. Sometimes manually adding it is
> > > > quicker than programming complicated rules.
> > > >
> > > > > It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :)
> > > > > ) but I think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it.
> > > > > Upper Bavaria is the south because it rises to the alps.  More
> > > > > interestingly, up might be to the south? you go up towards Rome in
> > > > > Irish?? More More interestingly, I hear that Irish is one of those
> > > > > languages that has an in-built sense of direction, you wouldn't say
> > > > > move over to the left, you would say move east or something
> > > > > like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to the map.
> > > >
> > > > Usually "Upper" is upstream, and "lower" is downstream, near the
> mouth
> > > > of the river. e.g. the Upper Rhine Plane is in south Germany, because
> > > > that's near where the Rhine starts. So when you see "Upper X" that's
> > 

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Patrick Matthews]

Brian,

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Brian Tuffy  wrote:

> Thanks, I have started mapping some "X (part of)" townlands as exclaves now
> (part of the 'parent' townland relation). This works well for the most
> part. I noticed that the 'parent' Townland usually has an additional area,
> for example "including 10A 1R 7P  dd. portion". This area matches the area
> of the exclave, so that makes sense.
>
> Here is a difficult example though, Although it says "Part of Rahard" it is
> not obvious that it is an exclave as the 'parent' townland is about 4
> townlands to the North West (There is even a third unrelated "Rahard" to
> the west which makes it difficult). I can identify the correct parent
> townland by matching the E.D. and the "area ...d.d. portion". The areas
> match, so it IS an exclave, but a strange one. The areas are relatively the
> same size and its not obvious why it is an exclave and not another townland
> with the same name. I will leave it alone for now.
> exclave:
> http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=16=53.63809=-9.
> 10907=B00TTFFF
> Parent:
> http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=17=53.67605=-9.
> 161=B00TTFFF



They're in different civil parishes but have been drawn into the same DED.
In this case, I would say that
they're two separate townlands which just happen to have the same name and
are being incorrectly
treated as two parts of the same townland.(This is a different issue to
having a single townland "split"
between civil parishes.) I suspect that they will have different logainm
references as well. I made a
similar change last week to the two Corravillas in Shercock ED (Cavan) when
I was finishing up the
EDs there.


>
>
>
> Another somewhat unrelated question is, Could "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)"
> (Ball Dumha Cinn Aille) be an exclave of nearby "Dookinnely (Calvy)" (Dumha
> Cinn Aille)? In Irish, Ball can mean 'part of' and we are on Achill Island
> here, so it is in the Gaeltacht. As far as I understand the (Calvy) ending
> is a family name in the area. The townland was named after landowners? The
> common (Calvy) part in both townlands suggests they are linked. I somehow
> think that "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)" should still remain as a separate
> townland, at least for now.
> http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?
> action=doNameSearch=0=0=Submit&
> familyname=calvy===MAYO&
> unionname==
>
>

I'd be inclined to leave it as is.


>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Brian Hollinshead 
> wrote:
>
> > Re Exclave
> > try Kiltiernan in County Dublin in townlands.ie
> >
> > and Kinnitty as CP, both enclaves belong to eslewhere external CPs
> >
> > On 17 February 2017 at 16:03, Rory McCann  wrote:
> >
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > On 17/02/17 16:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > > > Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and
> > > > Y", as it says on the wiki page. If it is "X or Y" then it should
> > > > be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It looks like Logainm treats "X
> > > > or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names have one ref tag. The
> > > > thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or Milebush" but in
> > > > OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
> > > > https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx
> > >
> > > OK, that sounds a little more complicated. I think I'll leave it alone
> > > then. We can always just find townlands with an "and" and without a
> > > logainm:ref and manually add them. Sometimes manually adding it is
> > > quicker than programming complicated rules.
> > >
> > > > It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :)
> > > > ) but I think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it.
> > > > Upper Bavaria is the south because it rises to the alps.  More
> > > > interestingly, up might be to the south? you go up towards Rome in
> > > > Irish?? More More interestingly, I hear that Irish is one of those
> > > > languages that has an in-built sense of direction, you wouldn't say
> > > > move over to the left, you would say move east or something
> > > > like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to the map.
> > >
> > > Usually "Upper" is upstream, and "lower" is downstream, near the mouth
> > > of the river. e.g. the Upper Rhine Plane is in south Germany, because
> > > that's near where the Rhine starts. So when you see "Upper X" that's
> > > usually more "upsteam" or something.
> > >
> > > > I agree with you that it should be mapped as an exclave. I have not
> > > > seen any like that so that's why I suggested to have two
> > > > townlands.
> > >
> > > I don't know if I've seen it with townlands. It's more common with
> > > Civil Parishes.
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> > >
> > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYpx69AAoJEOrWdmeZivv2a/EIAKwvRsri1/hodVTDoy936q8w
> > > nrJzEdDGpfTHU/7MyyNRfcqrtAfp41x+qgr13jTmGC3yGMraM9waj9UZLdj9h7WG
> > 

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Thanks, I have started mapping some "X (part of)" townlands as exclaves now
(part of the 'parent' townland relation). This works well for the most
part. I noticed that the 'parent' Townland usually has an additional area,
for example "including 10A 1R 7P  dd. portion". This area matches the area
of the exclave, so that makes sense.

Here is a difficult example though, Although it says "Part of Rahard" it is
not obvious that it is an exclave as the 'parent' townland is about 4
townlands to the North West (There is even a third unrelated "Rahard" to
the west which makes it difficult). I can identify the correct parent
townland by matching the E.D. and the "area ...d.d. portion". The areas
match, so it IS an exclave, but a strange one. The areas are relatively the
same size and its not obvious why it is an exclave and not another townland
with the same name. I will leave it alone for now.
exclave:
http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=16=53.63809=-9.10907=B00TTFFF
Parent:
http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=17=53.67605=-9.161=B00TTFFF


Another somewhat unrelated question is, Could "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)"
(Ball Dumha Cinn Aille) be an exclave of nearby "Dookinnely (Calvy)" (Dumha
Cinn Aille)? In Irish, Ball can mean 'part of' and we are on Achill Island
here, so it is in the Gaeltacht. As far as I understand the (Calvy) ending
is a family name in the area. The townland was named after landowners? The
common (Calvy) part in both townlands suggests they are linked. I somehow
think that "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)" should still remain as a separate
townland, at least for now.
http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?
action=doNameSearch=0=0=Submit&
familyname=calvy===MAYO&
unionname==





On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Brian Hollinshead 
wrote:

> Re Exclave
> try Kiltiernan in County Dublin in townlands.ie
>
> and Kinnitty as CP, both enclaves belong to eslewhere external CPs
>
> On 17 February 2017 at 16:03, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 17/02/17 16:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > > Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and
> > > Y", as it says on the wiki page. If it is "X or Y" then it should
> > > be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It looks like Logainm treats "X
> > > or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names have one ref tag. The
> > > thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or Milebush" but in
> > > OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
> > > https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx
> >
> > OK, that sounds a little more complicated. I think I'll leave it alone
> > then. We can always just find townlands with an "and" and without a
> > logainm:ref and manually add them. Sometimes manually adding it is
> > quicker than programming complicated rules.
> >
> > > It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :)
> > > ) but I think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it.
> > > Upper Bavaria is the south because it rises to the alps.  More
> > > interestingly, up might be to the south? you go up towards Rome in
> > > Irish?? More More interestingly, I hear that Irish is one of those
> > > languages that has an in-built sense of direction, you wouldn't say
> > > move over to the left, you would say move east or something
> > > like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to the map.
> >
> > Usually "Upper" is upstream, and "lower" is downstream, near the mouth
> > of the river. e.g. the Upper Rhine Plane is in south Germany, because
> > that's near where the Rhine starts. So when you see "Upper X" that's
> > usually more "upsteam" or something.
> >
> > > I agree with you that it should be mapped as an exclave. I have not
> > > seen any like that so that's why I suggested to have two
> > > townlands.
> >
> > I don't know if I've seen it with townlands. It's more common with
> > Civil Parishes.
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYpx69AAoJEOrWdmeZivv2a/EIAKwvRsri1/hodVTDoy936q8w
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> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-ie mailing list
> > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
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> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Hollinshead]

Re Exclave
try Kiltiernan in County Dublin in townlands.ie

and Kinnitty as CP, both enclaves belong to eslewhere external CPs

On 17 February 2017 at 16:03, Rory McCann  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 17/02/17 16:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and
> > Y", as it says on the wiki page. If it is "X or Y" then it should
> > be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It looks like Logainm treats "X
> > or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names have one ref tag. The
> > thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or Milebush" but in
> > OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
> > https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx
>
> OK, that sounds a little more complicated. I think I'll leave it alone
> then. We can always just find townlands with an "and" and without a
> logainm:ref and manually add them. Sometimes manually adding it is
> quicker than programming complicated rules.
>
> > It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :)
> > ) but I think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it.
> > Upper Bavaria is the south because it rises to the alps.  More
> > interestingly, up might be to the south? you go up towards Rome in
> > Irish?? More More interestingly, I hear that Irish is one of those
> > languages that has an in-built sense of direction, you wouldn't say
> > move over to the left, you would say move east or something
> > like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to the map.
>
> Usually "Upper" is upstream, and "lower" is downstream, near the mouth
> of the river. e.g. the Upper Rhine Plane is in south Germany, because
> that's near where the Rhine starts. So when you see "Upper X" that's
> usually more "upsteam" or something.
>
> > I agree with you that it should be mapped as an exclave. I have not
> > seen any like that so that's why I suggested to have two
> > townlands.
>
> I don't know if I've seen it with townlands. It's more common with
> Civil Parishes.
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYpx69AAoJEOrWdmeZivv2a/EIAKwvRsri1/hodVTDoy936q8w
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> =GEzN
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
> ___
> Talk-ie mailing list
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Rory McCann  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Some great, detailed advice here! 
>
> Townlands.ie shows how many objects have logainm:refs:
> https://www.townlands.ie/progress/#logainm It's currentlya botu 73% of
> townlands.
>
>
> On 17/02/17 14:51, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > Alternative names or 'typos that are not typos': (A) Many townlands
> > have two official names on the map source, "Ballindoo or
> > Doocastle". Both are valid, We should try to find out which one is
> > commonly-used/dominant and use that one in the name= tag and the
> > other in the alt_name= tag.
>
> The logainm match up will only look at the name:en tag (or failing
> that the name) tag. It doesn't look at the alt_name (etc) tags.
> Perhaps it should. likewise it should split "X and Y" into "X" and "Y"
> and look at them.
>


Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and Y", as
it says on the wiki page.
If it is "X or Y" then it should be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It
looks like Logainm treats "X or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names
have one ref tag. The thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or
Milebush" but in OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx



>
> > (B) A name structure variation is valid, "East X" = "X East". We
> > don't have to add every variation but if you come across them, you
> > can add them. The idea is that if someone searches for a townland,
> > we want them to find it no matter what variation they use. The
> > example above is trivial for search but something like Inishmore
> > Vs. Inish More. Also consider, Upper/Lower, Island, More/Beg
> > Oughter/Eighter etc.
>
> The logainm script is aware of North/South/Upper/etc and will try to
> match based on that. It is able to tell that "X Upper" in Logainm is
> the same as "Upper X" in OSM (and vice versa etc).
>
> A few of these will be added to the logainm match up. I wasn't aware
> of them:


 My Irish is unfortunately terrible but
Oughter (butchered irish) = uachtar (Irish) = Upper or Southern (English)
Eighter = Íochtar = Lower or Northern

It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :) ) but I
think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it. Upper Bavaria is
the south because it rises to the alps.  More interestingly, up might be to
the south? you go up towards Rome in Irish?? More More interestingly, I
hear that Irish is one of those languages that has an in-built sense of
direction, you wouldn't say move over to the left, you would say move
east or something like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to
the map.



>

> (C) Missing spaces can be valid names. e.g. Inishdeashmore =
> > Inishdeash-more = Inishdeash More
> >
> > (E) X Deme(ns)e and X Deme(sn)e. I suggest sticking to Deme(sn)e as
> > this is what is on the map source. (H) Apostrophes in names. I'm
> > getting a bit too in-depth here but I
> might
> > as well mention it. The old maps do not contain apostrophes in
> > names. "Georges Island", "Abbots Island". Some name tags are now
> > "George's
> Island"
> > etc. I suggest to keep "Georges Island" as an alt_name in this
> > case.
>
>
> > (G) Some townlands are named "Part of X" or "X (part of)". This
> > means it is a separate part of a nearby townland. Usually, you will
> > find an "X" townland nearby, that was split. I suggest we write the
> > name of these as "X (part of)".
>
> Are you sure about this? That would make 2 townlands, called "X" and
> "X (part of)". I thought if the map has a "X part of" displayed that
> it meant that little part was an exclave of the larger X townland, and
> I've been mapping them as such.
>

I agree with you that it should be mapped as an exclave. I have not seen
any like that so that's why I suggested to have two townlands.
If everyone is happy with it, I will also map the "part of" exclave with
the "X" townland. I will also amend my comments above when I put it up in a
wiki.

Thanks for the feedback!




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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Rory McCann]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 16/02/17 20:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> I have a question about the logainm script, How can it handle a
> barony that crosses a county border? For example, Barony of Ross
> crosses the Galway-Mayo border as one relation. This relation has
> one logainm tag for Ross in Mayo (logainm:ref = 172) but there are
> separate loganim ref numbers for Ross in Galway (logainm:ref = 85)
> on the logainm website. Can we somehow add both ref numbers to the
> Barony relation? something like logainm:ref=172;85, or what do you
> suggest? It seems that the script assumes everything is nested
> inside counties but if baronies/civil parishes cross county
> borders, then they have two logainm ref numbers.
> 
> https://www.logainm.ie/en/85   Galway 
> https://www.logainm.ie/en/172 Mayo 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4128697

I'll have to think about what exactly the code does in that case and
get back to you. As you can see it has only assigned on logainm code.

In my mind logainm:ref=172;85 is the right answer, since this one OSM
object represents 2 objects in Logainm. You can also have one object
in Logainm which corresponds to 2 (or more) OSM objects.

The logainm import code will never change a logainm:ref value that's
there already. In accordance with long standing OSM convention, human
mapping is viewed as better than what the script does. If the logainm
script has done something wrong (like this case), then you can, and
should, correct OSM manually.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Today I hope to upload my list of typo changes for Mayo to OSM.
When Rory runs his Logainm script tomorrow, I hope that it will add more
logainm tags because of this, let's see. Most of the typos are just
alternative spellings, The list here are just the ones that I plan to
overwrite. There could be a valid local spelling of a name that I have
missed. I challenge you guys to check my "Typos" column for a valid
townland name spelling.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wobpofwXzLdkPyB8mjMT1sDMQuZiO
gebR4S94yvbzU4/edit?usp=sharing

I manually checked the names to make sure I am not overwriting valid names.
I learned a lot about the structure of the names, false positive (i.e. name
mismatches that are not typos but valid alternative spellings or
alternative name structure)... and so I wanted to share those with
everyone. I hope this will help others who attempt to correct typos, and
help those working on automating the process in the future.

My assumptions:
(1) I assume that the GSGS3906 1:25k War Office map sheets, are the
original source of townland names and the spellings are valid names.

(2) There can be multiple valid names for one townland. Valid name(s) can
be from: the map source, a structure variation (e.g. X East, East X, Upper
X Island West More, etc.), a local/commonly-used name (e.g. Bellavarry is
commonly written as Ballyvary, both are valid and so should not be
overwritten),

(3) With the correct spelling of townland names, the Logainm script should
be able to automatically add logainm tags. A lack of logainm tags is an
indication that something is up with the name. After the typos are fixed,
any remaining townlands without tags can be added manually. Islands are not
included, yet.


Guidelines:
(A) Make double sure that the typo is a mistake and not a valid alternative
name as I outline below.
(B) Try to keep the names where possible by adding alt_name, loc_name or
old_name tags.
(C) Try to keep consistent naming schemes. For example, If there is an "X
More Island", then also try to keep "X Beg Island" and not "Xbeg Island",
Its not always possible though, I would not create a new name just to be
consistent.
(D) Its sometimes ok to keep invalid names, if they are common spelling
errors and there is proof that it is in use. For example, "Srahcorick" gets
a few search hits. "Srahacorick" is the correct spelling but I recommend
not adding the alt_name in this example. An example where I would add an
alt_name is "Bohea", official correct spelling is "Boheh". Local names
often come from spelling mistakes that become popular.
(E) The name= tag is the one that is usually displayed/dominant. I suggest
that the order of "importance" for this is local name > other names. If
someone knows a local or commonly used name of a place, they should use
loc_name=, but often they just replace the name= tag. (This is all
debatable, which name tags to use? alt_name is for townlands that have 2
official names. I also use alt_name for valid spelling variations. name:en
may also be used etc.)


How to identify Typos:
(1) Compare the list of townlands to the openOSI and other sources. Logainm
(derived from OSI), local authorities, etc.
(2) Visually identify them in your area,
http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/os_opendata.html
(3) Missing Logainm tags indicate a name mismatch.
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/townlands-missing-
logainm-data_83833#11/53.9650/-9.2107


How to check that the "typo" is a mistake:
(1) Check if it is an alternative spelling or alternative name. (see below)
(2) Check the map source.
(3) It may be obvious why the typo occurred. Is the mis-typed letter hard
to read?, blocked?, or a common mistake? (See common mistakes). This is
only an indication but it helps.
(4) If the name on the map source does not match any in the relation (even
as alt_name), this indicates that it was misspelled when first copied or
possibly overwritten.
(4) To check if it was overwritten, check the relation history on OSM, if
the name did not change at all, it is likely that it was misspelled when
first copied.
(5) Do a web search for the name (be sure it is the correct townland), if
there are lots (> 50 maybe) of webpage posts with that spelling, no matter
how wrong you think it is, it is likely a valid name spelling. Be aware
that some websites just use OSM data so there will always be a few hits.


Alternative names or 'typos that are not typos':
(A) Many townlands have two official names on the map source, "Ballindoo or
Doocastle". Both are valid, We should try to find out which one is
commonly-used/dominant and use that one in the name= tag and the other in
the alt_name= tag.

(B) A name structure variation is valid, "East X" = "X East". We don't have
to add every variation but if you come across them, you can add them. The
idea is that if someone searches for a townland, we want them to find it no
matter what variation they use. The example above is trivial for search but
something like Inishmore Vs. Inish 

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Thanks for the OSM OSI comparison map, this is great for showing up
mistakes in the townland boundaries and I even found a missing townland or
two.
This umap seems pretty cool too. I notice that many townlands without
logainm tags are because of the typos. Fixing those should allow the script
to do its thing. I can see a CP with a typo in it's name and because of
that, none of the townlands in it have logainm tags yet.

I have a question about the logainm script, How can it handle a barony that
crosses a county border? For example, Barony of Ross crosses the
Galway-Mayo border as one relation. This relation has one logainm tag for
Ross in Mayo (logainm:ref = 172) but there are separate loganim ref numbers
for Ross in Galway (logainm:ref = 85) on the logainm website. Can we
somehow add both ref numbers to the Barony relation? something like
logainm:ref=172;85, or what do you suggest? It seems that the script
assumes everything is nested inside counties but if baronies/civil parishes
cross county borders, then they have two logainm ref numbers.

https://www.logainm.ie/en/85   Galway
https://www.logainm.ie/en/172 Mayo
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4128697




On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Mark Tully  wrote:

> I believe it doesn't work over https because overpass.openstreetmap.ie
> (which is being used for the querying) doesn't support https, though I'm
> open to correction on that.  The overpass-api.de server does support it,
> but I've found it to be a little slower for this map.
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 at 15:55 Rory McCann  wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 16/02/17 16:40, Mark Tully wrote:
> > > There is also a umap at
> > > http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/townlands-missing-logainm-data_838
> > 33
> > >
> > >
> > which displays townlands without a logainm:ref tag.  This might be usefu
> > l
> > > in helping to locate townlands with typos.  Bear in mind that it
> > > only displays data above zoom 11 (to try to reduce browser
> > > slowdowns).
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > That's pretty cool! I've done overpass queries to find CPs/etc which
> > don't have a logainm:ref, but not umap like that.
> >
> > Yes you can add/change the name tag on OSM, but if you manage to find
> > the townland on logainm, you can directly add the logainm:ref tag
> > yourself.
> >
> > The loganm match up code looks at counties, then baronies, then civil
> > parishes, then townlands. So if it cannot match up a CP in OSM with
> > Logainm, it's not able to match up any of those townlands in the CP.
> > It's look at the name, but if there's a logainm:ref, it'll use that
> > instead.
> >
> > If you add logainm:ref tags to civil parishes, then it might be able
> > to add logainm details to more townlands.
> >
> > (BTW it doesn't work over https, and if you have the HTTPS Everywhere
> > extension like I do :) )
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> >
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> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Mark Tully]

I believe it doesn't work over https because overpass.openstreetmap.ie
(which is being used for the querying) doesn't support https, though I'm
open to correction on that.  The overpass-api.de server does support it,
but I've found it to be a little slower for this map.

Mark

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 at 15:55 Rory McCann  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 16/02/17 16:40, Mark Tully wrote:
> > There is also a umap at
> > http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/townlands-missing-logainm-data_838
> 33
> >
> >
> which displays townlands without a logainm:ref tag.  This might be usefu
> l
> > in helping to locate townlands with typos.  Bear in mind that it
> > only displays data above zoom 11 (to try to reduce browser
> > slowdowns).
> >
> > Mark
>
> That's pretty cool! I've done overpass queries to find CPs/etc which
> don't have a logainm:ref, but not umap like that.
>
> Yes you can add/change the name tag on OSM, but if you manage to find
> the townland on logainm, you can directly add the logainm:ref tag
> yourself.
>
> The loganm match up code looks at counties, then baronies, then civil
> parishes, then townlands. So if it cannot match up a CP in OSM with
> Logainm, it's not able to match up any of those townlands in the CP.
> It's look at the name, but if there's a logainm:ref, it'll use that
> instead.
>
> If you add logainm:ref tags to civil parishes, then it might be able
> to add logainm details to more townlands.
>
> (BTW it doesn't work over https, and if you have the HTTPS Everywhere
> extension like I do :) )
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> =hmDW
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Rory McCann]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 16/02/17 16:40, Mark Tully wrote:
> There is also a umap at 
> http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/townlands-missing-logainm-data_838
33
>
> 
which displays townlands without a logainm:ref tag.  This might be usefu
l
> in helping to locate townlands with typos.  Bear in mind that it
> only displays data above zoom 11 (to try to reduce browser
> slowdowns).
> 
> Mark

That's pretty cool! I've done overpass queries to find CPs/etc which
don't have a logainm:ref, but not umap like that.

Yes you can add/change the name tag on OSM, but if you manage to find
the townland on logainm, you can directly add the logainm:ref tag
yourself.

The loganm match up code looks at counties, then baronies, then civil
parishes, then townlands. So if it cannot match up a CP in OSM with
Logainm, it's not able to match up any of those townlands in the CP.
It's look at the name, but if there's a logainm:ref, it'll use that
instead.

If you add logainm:ref tags to civil parishes, then it might be able
to add logainm details to more townlands.

(BTW it doesn't work over https, and if you have the HTTPS Everywhere
extension like I do :) )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

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HyWnq6Ye/iPDn/+x0bcq0jpYh59cZbEPQ1NGUZvoEiMKuTUGcrY0av1IM878iUs=
=hmDW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Mark Tully]

There is also a umap at
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/townlands-missing-logainm-data_83833
which displays townlands without a logainm:ref tag.  This might be useful
in helping to locate townlands with typos.  Bear in mind that it only
displays data above zoom 11 (to try to reduce browser slowdowns).

Mark

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 at 10:42 Dave Corley  wrote:

> That sounds like a good idea.
>
> If possible, it would be useful if it would link to the townland relation
> to allow easy editing.
>
> Once that smaller list is compiled its a matter of going through them one
> by one and identifying the correct name whether that be in OSM, OSi,
> Loganim or the map sheet
>
> On 16 Feb 2017 12:37, "Rory McCann"  wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > On 15/02/17 16:36, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > > just to follow up on my own post, another way to tackle this is to
> take a
> > > look at Rory's Loganim import page on townlands.ie which I highly
> > recommend
> > > you take a look at.
> > > https://www.townlands.ie/static/logainm/
> > >
> > > Each red x on these pages means that the loganim irish names tags are
> not
> > > in OSM for that place.
> > > As far as I know, they were automatically added for the places where
> the
> > > names in Loganim list matched those in OSM (or at least id's matched?).
> > So
> > > a red x can indicate that there is a spelling mismatch or the place is
> > > missing.
> > > It's a good place to start if you want to correct typo's in place
> names.
> >
> >
> > Minor point, that page doesn't look at the name, but at the
> > "logainm:ref" tag. If there's a "logainm:ref" tag, then it gets a green
> > tick, red X means no logainm:ref. That page is updated every morning.
> >
> > The (ongoing) Logainm data match up and import (wiki page[1], script
> > source code[2]), looks at the logainm:ref tag and added the name:ga tags
> > from logainm if needed. That script will also look at the name (or
> > name:en) tag and try to match it up to what's in logainm and set the
> > logainm:ref tag as appropriate. If there is a typo in the name (or OSM
> > and Logainm disagree about the name), then it won't be able to set the
> > logainm:ref tag, and hence there'll be a red X there.
> >
> > I'm going to run that script again this weekend at the Karlsruhe Hack
> > Weekend. Perhaps I will look at that OSi open data and try to find
> > places where OSM & OSi (and maybe Logainm!) disagree. We have ~60,000
> > townlands, maybe filtering that list down to smaller list of "possible
> > problems" will be easier.
> >
> >
> > [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logainm_Import
> > [2] https://github.com/osmie/logainm-osm-import
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Dave Corley]

That sounds like a good idea.

If possible, it would be useful if it would link to the townland relation
to allow easy editing.

Once that smaller list is compiled its a matter of going through them one
by one and identifying the correct name whether that be in OSM, OSi,
Loganim or the map sheet

On 16 Feb 2017 12:37, "Rory McCann"  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On 15/02/17 16:36, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > just to follow up on my own post, another way to tackle this is to take a
> > look at Rory's Loganim import page on townlands.ie which I highly
> recommend
> > you take a look at.
> > https://www.townlands.ie/static/logainm/
> >
> > Each red x on these pages means that the loganim irish names tags are not
> > in OSM for that place.
> > As far as I know, they were automatically added for the places where the
> > names in Loganim list matched those in OSM (or at least id's matched?).
> So
> > a red x can indicate that there is a spelling mismatch or the place is
> > missing.
> > It's a good place to start if you want to correct typo's in place names.
>
>
> Minor point, that page doesn't look at the name, but at the
> "logainm:ref" tag. If there's a "logainm:ref" tag, then it gets a green
> tick, red X means no logainm:ref. That page is updated every morning.
>
> The (ongoing) Logainm data match up and import (wiki page[1], script
> source code[2]), looks at the logainm:ref tag and added the name:ga tags
> from logainm if needed. That script will also look at the name (or
> name:en) tag and try to match it up to what's in logainm and set the
> logainm:ref tag as appropriate. If there is a typo in the name (or OSM
> and Logainm disagree about the name), then it won't be able to set the
> logainm:ref tag, and hence there'll be a red X there.
>
> I'm going to run that script again this weekend at the Karlsruhe Hack
> Weekend. Perhaps I will look at that OSi open data and try to find
> places where OSM & OSi (and maybe Logainm!) disagree. We have ~60,000
> townlands, maybe filtering that list down to smaller list of "possible
> problems" will be easier.
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logainm_Import
> [2] https://github.com/osmie/logainm-osm-import
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Rory McCann]

Hi!

On 15/02/17 16:36, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> just to follow up on my own post, another way to tackle this is to take a
> look at Rory's Loganim import page on townlands.ie which I highly recommend
> you take a look at.
> https://www.townlands.ie/static/logainm/
> 
> Each red x on these pages means that the loganim irish names tags are not
> in OSM for that place.
> As far as I know, they were automatically added for the places where the
> names in Loganim list matched those in OSM (or at least id's matched?). So
> a red x can indicate that there is a spelling mismatch or the place is
> missing.
> It's a good place to start if you want to correct typo's in place names.


Minor point, that page doesn't look at the name, but at the
"logainm:ref" tag. If there's a "logainm:ref" tag, then it gets a green
tick, red X means no logainm:ref. That page is updated every morning.

The (ongoing) Logainm data match up and import (wiki page[1], script
source code[2]), looks at the logainm:ref tag and added the name:ga tags
from logainm if needed. That script will also look at the name (or
name:en) tag and try to match it up to what's in logainm and set the
logainm:ref tag as appropriate. If there is a typo in the name (or OSM
and Logainm disagree about the name), then it won't be able to set the
logainm:ref tag, and hence there'll be a red X there.

I'm going to run that script again this weekend at the Karlsruhe Hack
Weekend. Perhaps I will look at that OSi open data and try to find
places where OSM & OSi (and maybe Logainm!) disagree. We have ~60,000
townlands, maybe filtering that list down to smaller list of "possible
problems" will be easier.


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Logainm_Import
[2] https://github.com/osmie/logainm-osm-import

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Hi Colm,
Thanks for your addition, every little helps!
I agree with you that we must not assume that the mistake is always in the
OSM entry. Often the entry in OSM is of greater value, even if it does not
match any official names, for example, I have added the local name of a
townland "Guesdian"  I know this is the name everyone uses and it is the
name on the townland marker-stone in the area. However the official name is
"Geesadan" and there are alternative names such as "Gweeshadan" all for the
same place. So we have to be very careful correcting names!
I recommend to use local_name= and alt_name= tags where possible. We can
check the version history of a townland relation (version #) and if the
name does not change since it was first added, then I can assume that a
local name was not added. The typos occurred when copying the name from the
maps because they are hard to read. I think 4.3% error in names is actually
impressively low.

The obvious way to identify a typo is to check if any of the names in the
relation exactly match the original townlands map source. Those names
should be present in some form, possible alt_name or something.
http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/  and click mapwrapper GSGS3906

Cheers,
Brian T




On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Colm Moore  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> I corrected at least one - Kiltalown in Dublin-  after checking with Rory:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4513764
>
>
> However, in dealing with 60,000+ names, we need to be careful and not
> assume that all the mistakes are in the OSM data entry - it may be that
> there are errors in other sources, e.g. "Little Island" in Cork shows up
> some older Ordnance Survey maps as "LITTLEISLAND", which is somewhat
> obviously incorrectly spaced:
>
>
> http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,575522,571859,9,8
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6514445
>
>
> Colm
>
>
> 
> ---
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
> change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
> ___
> Talk-ie mailing list
> Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

just to follow up on my own post, another way to tackle this is to take a
look at Rory's Loganim import page on townlands.ie which I highly recommend
you take a look at.
https://www.townlands.ie/static/logainm/

Each red x on these pages means that the loganim irish names tags are not
in OSM for that place.
As far as I know, they were automatically added for the places where the
names in Loganim list matched those in OSM (or at least id's matched?). So
a red x can indicate that there is a spelling mismatch or the place is
missing.
It's a good place to start if you want to correct typo's in place names.

Brian T


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Brian Tuffy  wrote:

> Hi all,
> I found a lot of typos in townland names in county Mayo and i presume it
> is similar in other counties. As of 12.01.2017, About 4.3% of townlands in
> Mayo have a mistake in the spelling. That is roughly 130 townland names
> just for Mayo! I think that is something important we can correct now that
> the hard work of mapping the townlands is done.
>
> Before, I was correcting them as I came across them but I think a more
> systematic approach is needed to double check names and also why i want the
> community to help, share ideas on how to do it and check each others work.
> It is understandable that mistakes were made since it is sometimes
> difficult to read the GSGS30906 war maps source. So what I am talking about
> here, is spelling mistakes in copying the townland names from the source.
>
> So here are my questions;
> How do we go about cross-checking the names of townlands (also parishes,
> DED's etc)?
> What sources can we use? 1911 census list of townlands? the war maps can
> still be the original source of townland names. Can we legally use the data
> on pobal.ie to cross-check spelling? Although unlikely, can we even
> extract the other data there (townland id)? Is that useful ?
>
> Are you interested in checking the names in your county?
>
> Here I propose my way of checking townland names:
> The principle was to compare the OSM list of townlands to other lists and
> identify if the names match or are unique entries. The unique entries are
> possible mistakes.
> I downloaded the townland list for Mayo from townlands.ie and I am
> currently trying to compare the list to other sources. I have the draft
> list of townlands in Mayo from Loganim.ie and a townlands list from
> pobal.ie (possibly copyrighted list ). Anyway, once the possible mistakes
> are highlighted, (Excel - conditional formatting) we can go back to the war
> maps source and check the correct spelling. It takes a lot of work, i.e.
> formatting, false positives, we have to respect local names of townlands
> etc.
>
> Besides typos, this method can also be used to add the irish names of
> townlands, identify missing townlands not yet added and much more.
>
> Please let me know what you think. My corrections for Co. Mayo are nearly
> complete and I plan to upload them soon.
> Ok, Thanks for reading,
>
> Brian
> Username: OscarBrownbread
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Colm Moore]

Hi,


I corrected at least one - Kiltalown in Dublin-  after checking with Rory: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4513764


However, in dealing with 60,000+ names, we need to be careful and not assume 
that all the mistakes are in the OSM data entry - it may be that there are 
errors in other sources, e.g. "Little Island" in Cork shows up some older 
Ordnance Survey maps as "LITTLEISLAND", which is somewhat obviously incorrectly 
spaced:


http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,575522,571859,9,8

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6514445


Colm


---
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the 
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Dave Corley]

I think Rory has a script that is adding the Irish names for everything
based on Loganim data cross referenced by townland, its CP, Barony and
county.

I would assume that there is a quantity that are not showing as matching.
This may flag up the ones you are talking about too but I'm saying this
based on some assumptions on how his script works.

Dave

On 14 Feb 2017 16:24, "Brian Tuffy"  wrote:

> Hi all,
> I found a lot of typos in townland names in county Mayo and i presume it is
> similar in other counties. As of 12.01.2017, About 4.3% of townlands in
> Mayo have a mistake in the spelling. That is roughly 130 townland names
> just for Mayo! I think that is something important we can correct now that
> the hard work of mapping the townlands is done.
>
> Before, I was correcting them as I came across them but I think a more
> systematic approach is needed to double check names and also why i want the
> community to help, share ideas on how to do it and check each others work.
> It is understandable that mistakes were made since it is sometimes
> difficult to read the GSGS30906 war maps source. So what I am talking about
> here, is spelling mistakes in copying the townland names from the source.
>
> So here are my questions;
> How do we go about cross-checking the names of townlands (also parishes,
> DED's etc)?
> What sources can we use? 1911 census list of townlands? the war maps can
> still be the original source of townland names. Can we legally use the data
> on pobal.ie to cross-check spelling? Although unlikely, can we even
> extract
> the other data there (townland id)? Is that useful ?
>
> Are you interested in checking the names in your county?
>
> Here I propose my way of checking townland names:
> The principle was to compare the OSM list of townlands to other lists and
> identify if the names match or are unique entries. The unique entries are
> possible mistakes.
> I downloaded the townland list for Mayo from townlands.ie and I am
> currently trying to compare the list to other sources. I have the draft
> list of townlands in Mayo from Loganim.ie and a townlands list from
> pobal.ie
> (possibly copyrighted list ). Anyway, once the possible mistakes are
> highlighted, (Excel - conditional formatting) we can go back to the war
> maps source and check the correct spelling. It takes a lot of work, i.e.
> formatting, false positives, we have to respect local names of townlands
> etc.
>
> Besides typos, this method can also be used to add the irish names of
> townlands, identify missing townlands not yet added and much more.
>
> Please let me know what you think. My corrections for Co. Mayo are nearly
> complete and I plan to upload them soon.
> Ok, Thanks for reading,
>
> Brian
> Username: OscarBrownbread
> ___
> Talk-ie mailing list
> Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
>
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[OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Hi all,
I found a lot of typos in townland names in county Mayo and i presume it is
similar in other counties. As of 12.01.2017, About 4.3% of townlands in
Mayo have a mistake in the spelling. That is roughly 130 townland names
just for Mayo! I think that is something important we can correct now that
the hard work of mapping the townlands is done.

Before, I was correcting them as I came across them but I think a more
systematic approach is needed to double check names and also why i want the
community to help, share ideas on how to do it and check each others work.
It is understandable that mistakes were made since it is sometimes
difficult to read the GSGS30906 war maps source. So what I am talking about
here, is spelling mistakes in copying the townland names from the source.

So here are my questions;
How do we go about cross-checking the names of townlands (also parishes,
DED's etc)?
What sources can we use? 1911 census list of townlands? the war maps can
still be the original source of townland names. Can we legally use the data
on pobal.ie to cross-check spelling? Although unlikely, can we even extract
the other data there (townland id)? Is that useful ?

Are you interested in checking the names in your county?

Here I propose my way of checking townland names:
The principle was to compare the OSM list of townlands to other lists and
identify if the names match or are unique entries. The unique entries are
possible mistakes.
I downloaded the townland list for Mayo from townlands.ie and I am
currently trying to compare the list to other sources. I have the draft
list of townlands in Mayo from Loganim.ie and a townlands list from pobal.ie
(possibly copyrighted list ). Anyway, once the possible mistakes are
highlighted, (Excel - conditional formatting) we can go back to the war
maps source and check the correct spelling. It takes a lot of work, i.e.
formatting, false positives, we have to respect local names of townlands
etc.

Besides typos, this method can also be used to add the irish names of
townlands, identify missing townlands not yet added and much more.

Please let me know what you think. My corrections for Co. Mayo are nearly
complete and I plan to upload them soon.
Ok, Thanks for reading,

Brian
Username: OscarBrownbread
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