Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Paul Johnson wrote: If it's no longer part of the ground truth, why try to map it? OSM is in the now, after all. Thus all the historic, old_name, end date, etc. tags... ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 31.07.2010 20:58, Heiko Jacobs wrote: Michał Borsuk schrieb: May I ask why bother? OSM is not a historic map, am I right?. What use do I have of the information that once here there was a railway when there are no traces, nothing to be found, nothing to be feared? There are a lot of things inside OSM that for my opinion are bothering. But I don't delete them ... I meant that you should not map things that are not actually on the Earth. (Why bother means why do it) It seems that you both don't read my first mail? Neither you read the numerous replies which said that you should abandon the entire idea. Plus, you are aiming to add a new type of a tag (value), and this action requires an in-depth approach, because it disturbs simplicity. Don't complicate things that work, for better is the enemy of good. -- Greetings, LMB ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:59:53 -0400, Greg Troxel wrote: For tagging the status of rail infrastructure there are in use: I usually think it's good to look at existing practice by others. On USGS maps, and in US legal usage: out of service: rails still exist, but no trains. shown as regular rail on USGS maps. OSM has no aparent term for this. This would also be disused. abandoned: this is a legal distinction, where ICC has approved abandonment. shown as dashed rails. tracks may or may not be present, but typically some track remnants. OSM says disused Tracks are always present for disused. old railroad grade. Definitely legally abandoned, definitely no rails. often just traces of embankment. shown as dashed line, no hashes, but there are definite signs on the ground that there used to be a railway (obvious to any train fan). OSM says abandoned Yes. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:31:53 +0200, Michał Borsuk wrote: On 28 July 2010 11:26, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Something like http://forum.openstreetmap.org Definitely. Forum is way better than a mailing list, a threaded forum is even better. [citation needed]. There's nothing a forum does better; personally given the centralized, rigid nature of forums that prevent thread management and offline use, the forum should be abandoned. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:03:59 +0200, Michał Borsuk wrote: Just a technical note, we'd need a server with some proper Forum-like software, so that posts like the one below could be pinned. Why not just update the wiki? Why needlessly complicate things with a forum? ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:56:22 +0200, Heiko Jacobs wrote: So this words don't satisfy me ... I'm searching something like traceless, virtual, very, really very abandoned, ... Does anybody has an idea? How about omitting the line entirely? If it's no longer part of the ground truth, why try to map it? OSM is in the now, after all. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk schrieb: Without getting too much into the linguistic issues, I'd support the Swedish railway=historic_path for anything further than stillgelegt (English abandoned?), that is either with track, or without, but not yet turned into a bike path (or anything similar). But let's wait for others to comment. It seems, that no one else will comment here? I'm still not satisfied to use something with time in it like historic as part of a list with timeless words describing states. levelled or disappeared might be better suitable to this list: - proposed/planned - construction - () - disused - abandonded(/dismantled) - levelled/disappeared 25/37 ways worldwide using other words are retagged quickly ... Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 31 July 2010 10:06, Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de wrote: Michał Borsuk schrieb: Without getting too much into the linguistic issues, I'd support the Swedish railway=historic_path for anything further than stillgelegt (English abandoned?), that is either with track, or without, but not yet turned into a bike path (or anything similar). But let's wait for others to comment. It seems, that no one else will comment here? I'm still not satisfied to use something with time in it like historic as part of a list with timeless words describing states. levelled or disappeared might be better suitable to this list: - proposed/planned - construction - () - disused - abandonded(/dismantled) - levelled/disappeared I agree with your arguments. Then former? Disappeared cannot be used, because it implies that the railway just rolled itself and went home for Feierabend. Or a UFO took it one night. I don't like levelled for another reason: it is a word that is not easily understood for those English-challenged, that is beginners. It's not a word that easily translates into other languages. For this I would propose removed. (Then it does not contrast with dismantled very much, but frankly I am getting lost in those distinctions). - proposed/planned - construction - () - disused - abandonded - removed/dismantled/former (if there really is a difference) - [*=bike path] -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 31 July 2010 14:19, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Saturday 31 July 2010 10:06:23 Heiko Jacobs wrote: It seems, that no one else will comment here? I think you don't get much comment because most mappers are too busy with mapping stuff that is still there. If we don't have some order in it now, we can run into problems later. Inconsistencies do exist already. There is actually a significant number of people that think we should _not_ map stuff that is no longer there. But IIRC the question was how to map a former railway line that is older/more damaged than mothballed / overgrown with trees, but not yet removed. That could be mapped. -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk schrieb: I agree with your arguments. Then former? former is a little bit non-specific. A disused or abandoned railway may also be called former Disappeared cannot be used, because it implies that the railway just rolled itself and went home for Feierabend. Or a UFO took it one night. For real railway fans only an UFO can explain why someone can have the absurd idea to remove any rail ;-) In times when discarded metall ist valuable enough also other explainations will exists ... I don't like levelled for another reason: it is a word that is not easily understood for those English-challenged, that is beginners. It's not a word that easily translates into other languages. For this I would propose removed. (Then it does not contrast with dismantled very much, but frankly I am getting lost in those distinctions). Better than levelled might be the words converted or transformed? converted/transformed to farmland/residential areas/village green/... including filling of cuttings and removing embankments ... removed might also be ok if it is clear enough, that the whole way incl. cutt./emb. is removed, not only the rails? - proposed/planned - construction - () - disused - abandonded - removed/dismantled/former (if there really is a difference) dismantled is seldomely in use an I think similar to abandoned - [*=bike path] If I found a cycleway as former railway I just gave both tags: cycleway and abandoned railway. Might be I change them to the new word ... If the cycleway uses the old railway gravel under the waterbound macadam a little bit of railway still exists ;-) Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 31 July 2010 15:13, Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de wrote: Michał Borsuk schrieb: I agree with your arguments. Then former? former is a little bit non-specific. A disused or abandoned railway may also be called former It's already called disused or abandoned. I don't like levelled for another reason: it is a word that is not easily understood for those English-challenged, that is beginners. It's not a word that easily translates into other languages. For this I would propose removed. (Then it does not contrast with dismantled very much, but frankly I am getting lost in those distinctions). Better than levelled might be the words converted or transformed? converted/transformed to farmland/residential areas/village green/... including filling of cuttings and removing embankments ... If any traces of it are removed, then it doesn't classify for OSM. -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Cartinus schrieb: I'm interested in railways too, so I find that interesting. Railways are relative sparse, so it won't clutter the map much. ... and with the suitable tag it won't clutter the rendered slippy map I don't like gaps. ;-) A former railway between Ittersbach and Pforzheim I could map 90% because there are enough traces (gravel, embankments, cuttings, bridges, ...) but 10% are levveled for farmland or residential ares including buildings. But the way can be reconstrcuted (straight on or with known curvature) There for I need tags. Also for other ways, where parts of it have coordinates because of streets parallel to the old rail or directly on the old railway, other parts still have real traces and other parts were easily reconstructable from old maps. So a combination of parts with disused, abandoned and the new tag will produce the whole network for later special maps. Next comes the historic society of blah city and they want to map the medieval street pattern. Half a year later they have a project about Roman times and want to map the castellum that once stood where now the city centre is. For such real ancient things: If they don't dig, they don't have coordinates ;-) And if they can dig nothing else is there and it's worth to map ;-) Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 31 July 2010 16:18, Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de wrote: A former railway between Ittersbach and Pforzheim I could map 90% because there are enough traces (gravel, embankments, cuttings, bridges, ...) but 10% are levveled for farmland or residential ares including buildings. But the way can be reconstrcuted May I ask why bother? OSM is not a historic map, am I right?. What use do I have of the information that once here there was a railway when there are no traces, nothing to be found, nothing to be feared? -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk schrieb: May I ask why bother? OSM is not a historic map, am I right?. What use do I have of the information that once here there was a railway when there are no traces, nothing to be found, nothing to be feared? There are a lot of things inside OSM that for my opinion are bothering. But I don't delete them ... Cartinus schrieb: You don't have to dig. Medieval maps are certainly out of copyright. ... and out of coordinates ... surveying with suitable precision started long time after medieval ... It seems that you both don't read my first mail? Heiko Jacobs schrieb: ... Sometimes the traces of a railway are very virtual: ... Sometimes no trace exist anymore ... For this I'm searching a word ... Another word I found for this sort of historic ways: razed So at the moment 4 words may be good candidates for it: - transformed - converted - removed - razed Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On Saturday 31 July 2010 20:58:59 Heiko Jacobs wrote: Heiko Jacobs schrieb: ... Sometimes the traces of a railway are very virtual: ... Sometimes no trace exist anymore ... For this I'm searching a word ... If you don't map it, then you don't need the word - that is why you don't get much support from other people finding it. On Saturday 31 July 2010 20:58:59 Heiko Jacobs wrote: Cartinus schrieb: You don't have to dig. Medieval maps are certainly out of copyright. ... and out of coordinates ... surveying with suitable precision started long time after medieval ... How are you going to find accurate coordinates for something that is no longer there like your railway? What you described previously were approximations based on other things. How accurate is tracing lakes from landsat images? How accurate is the PGS data most coastlines in OSM are based on? How accurate is a GPS on a wooded mountain trail or in a typical city centre? Look up map warping with your favourite search engine to see what people are doing with historical maps and known points. OSM is full of inaccurate data. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Something like http://forum.openstreetmap.org rather than http://wiki.openstreetmap.org or http://help.openstreetmap.org (that last one doesn’t seem to be working at present, but is still linked from the FAQ page on the wiki)? From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Michal Borsuk Sent: 28 July 2010 10:04 To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails Just a technical note, we'd need a server with some proper Forum-like software, so that posts like the one below could be pinned. Any volunteers? ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
David Peek schrieb: How about using destroyed or perhaps levelled? railway fans would say, that abandonede also looks very destroyed for them ;-) levelled seems to be a good idea. I just played around in dict.leo.org again and found vanished as a another possible word. vanished into thin air for a place of a former railroad where no traces may be found ... A logical name would be historic, but I think using that would be dangerous as it might get confused with a preserved/tourist railway. Yes, that might be another problem besides mixing with existing historic-tags ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 28 July 2010 11:26, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Something like http://forum.openstreetmap.org Definitely. Forum is way better than a mailing list, a threaded forum is even better. What needs to be done: * creation of a subclass in the forum (name anybody? is Transit Talk OK, or too short?) * blocking new posts here, and leaving an automatic reply with the link to the forum (can be done in the mailing list list administration page, but must be done by the admin) Greetings, -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Sorry, I mentioned it now, then. I don’t like web forums, so wouldn’t move if the email list closed. Ed Definitely. Forum is way better than a mailing list, a threaded forum is even better. What needs to be done: * creation of a subclass in the forum (name anybody? is Transit Talk OK, or too short?) * blocking new posts here, and leaving an automatic reply with the link to the forum (can be done in the mailing list list administration page, but must be done by the admin) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 28.07.2010 12:06, Ed Loach wrote: Sorry, I mentioned it now, then. I don’t like web forums, so wouldn’t move if the email list closed. Any sensible reasons for this? LMB -- Jesli czytasz ten podpis, to znaczy że obijam się w biurze :: LMB ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk wrote: What needs to be done: * blocking new posts here, and leaving an automatic reply with the link to the forum (can be done in the mailing list list administration page, but must be done by the admin) Why? Mailing lists work extremely well (except for digests) gatewayed to news servers (I ought to know, I'm reading this mailing list via a news server), and there is at least one fully-threaded web forum software that also works quite well gatewaying to news servers. That way, everyone can have their favorite slice of the cake and eat it, too. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk schrieb: Definitely. Forum is way better than a mailing list, a threaded forum is even better. I'm reading all OSM mailing lists threaded using thunderbird and news.gmane.org ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 28.07.2010 12:41, Heiko Jacobs wrote: Michał Borsuk schrieb: Definitely. Forum is way better than a mailing list, a threaded forum is even better. I'm reading all OSM mailing lists threaded using thunderbird and news.gmane.org Thanks! ...and the group is called gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.transit For the record: news:news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.transit Greetings, LMB ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
We should probably take this discussion offlist, but my spare time is valuable and far too scarce, and I don’t want to spend it visiting websites just to see if there have been any new posts. I don’t believe I can configure the osm forums to email me notifications (or better still the content) for each post to the forum. If I can subscribe to certain topics, as you can on some forums, then I don’t believe that I can reply via email and would have to visit the forums to reply. The now discontinued MSN Groups did support emailing posts to members and coped with replies via email (as I note do the emailed Facebook notifications these days), so it is possible to have forums that are friendly to email users. Having said that I’ve found something email related under privacy options on the OSM Forums so may give them another try, but even then it looks like you subscribe to topics rather than an individual forum, so won’t know about any new topics without visiting the site and browsing the new posts since last visit (I have 128 pages of new posts since my last visit on 17th September 2009). I’d even be happy with an RSS feed of new posts to any forum; anything which means I don’t have to visit the forum just in case there are any new posts/topics. So, it isn’t all web forums I’m against. Just those where I have to visit them to read and/or post. Ed From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Michal Borsuk Sent: 28 July 2010 11:20 To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails On 28.07.2010 12:06, Ed Loach wrote: Sorry, I mentioned it now, then. I don’t like web forums, so wouldn’t move if the email list closed. Any sensible reasons for this? LMB -- Jesli czytasz ten podpis, to znaczy że obijam się w biurze :: LMB ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Michał Borsuk schrieb: levelled seems to be a good idea. I'd stick to what is being used now. There is be nothing official (noted in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:railway ) for vanished ;-) rails ... There might be some undocumented tries to tag this spread over the whole planet. I found in tagwatch just only 25x railway=historic_path in Sweden and 37x historic:railway=rail in Germany the second ones leave the name space and the first one ... M... also not really suitable to construction/.../disused/abandoned I just played around in dict.leo.org http://dict.leo.org again and found vanished LOL! You want to say, that disappeared might be a better word? ;-) Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
On 28.07.2010 14:56, Heiko Jacobs wrote: Michał Borsuk schrieb: levelled seems to be a good idea. I'd stick to what is being used now. There is be nothing official (noted in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:railway ) for vanished ;-) rails ... There might be some undocumented tries to tag this spread over the whole planet. I found in tagwatch just only 25x railway=historic_path in Sweden and 37x historic:railway=rail in Germany the second ones leave the name space and the first one ... M... also not really suitable to construction/.../disused/abandoned I just played around in dict.leo.org http://dict.leo.org again and found vanished LOL! You want to say, that disappeared might be a better word? ;-) Without getting too much into the linguistic issues, I'd support the Swedish railway=historic_path for anything further than stillgelegt (English abandoned?), that is either with track, or without, but not yet turned into a bike path (or anything similar). But let's wait for others to comment. Mueck -- Greetings, LMB ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
[Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
Hello For tagging the status of rail infrastructure there are in use: - proposed or planned for rails not yet existing - construction - ... (nothing for rails in use) - disused for existing rails not in use anymore - abandoned (or sometimes dismantled) for rails not existing anymore, but traces already exist (gravel, embankments, cuttings, sometimes old rails crossing a way, ...) ... using to alternative taggings: - railway=abandoned / abandoned=tram or - railway=tram abandoned=yes Sometimes the traces of a railway are very virtual: - One or two streets/ways may follow the old railway and the railway declares why the ways have this position - the edges of parcels of land may follow old railways - scrub follows the old railway - ... using abandoned may be beyond the scope of the definition of abandoned ... Sometimes no trace exist anymore - because the whole area is covered by a new urban quarter where streets don't follow old railways ... - farmland has occupied the old railway - surface mining - ... using abandoned then, rendered in Mapnik slippy map and osmarender, this will disturb the map from view of the not railway-historical interested ones ;-) So I just searching for a suitable word for tagging traceless dissappeard railways ... A disturbed local community ;-) proposed two words - historic, but this collides with existing historic tagging - ancient, but this sounds very, very old, old greeks and romans ... ;-) And both are not suitable to the existing scheme planned-construction-...-disused-abandoned which are independent from their age. An railway may be abandoned 2 weeks or 100 years ago ... So this words don't satisfy me ... I'm searching something like traceless, virtual, very, really very abandoned, ... Does anybody has an idea? Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
How about using destroyed or perhaps levelled? A logical name would be historic, but I think using that would be dangerous as it might get confused with a preserved/tourist railway. -- David On 27 July 2010 15:56, Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de wrote: Hello For tagging the status of rail infrastructure there are in use: - proposed or planned for rails not yet existing - construction - ... (nothing for rails in use) - disused for existing rails not in use anymore - abandoned (or sometimes dismantled) for rails not existing anymore, but traces already exist (gravel, embankments, cuttings, sometimes old rails crossing a way, ...) ... using to alternative taggings: - railway=abandoned / abandoned=tram or - railway=tram abandoned=yes Sometimes the traces of a railway are very virtual: - One or two streets/ways may follow the old railway and the railway declares why the ways have this position - the edges of parcels of land may follow old railways - scrub follows the old railway - ... using abandoned may be beyond the scope of the definition of abandoned ... Sometimes no trace exist anymore - because the whole area is covered by a new urban quarter where streets don't follow old railways ... - farmland has occupied the old railway - surface mining - ... using abandoned then, rendered in Mapnik slippy map and osmarender, this will disturb the map from view of the not railway-historical interested ones ;-) So I just searching for a suitable word for tagging traceless dissappeard railways ... A disturbed local community ;-) proposed two words - historic, but this collides with existing historic tagging - ancient, but this sounds very, very old, old greeks and romans ... ;-) And both are not suitable to the existing scheme planned-construction-...-disused-abandoned which are independent from their age. An railway may be abandoned 2 weeks or 100 years ago ... So this words don't satisfy me ... I'm searching something like traceless, virtual, very, really very abandoned, ... Does anybody has an idea? Mueck ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] totally abandoned rails
For tagging the status of rail infrastructure there are in use: I usually think it's good to look at existing practice by others. On USGS maps, and in US legal usage: out of service: rails still exist, but no trains. shown as regular rail on USGS maps. OSM has no aparent term for this. abandoned: this is a legal distinction, where ICC has approved abandonment. shown as dashed rails. tracks may or may not be present, but typically some track remnants. OSM says disused old railroad grade. Definitely legally abandoned, definitely no rails. often just traces of embankment. shown as dashed line, no hashes, but there are definite signs on the ground that there used to be a railway (obvious to any train fan). OSM says abandoned beyond that, this road used to be a railroad doesn't show up on normal renderings. I'd be all for railway=historic to record previous route, and expect it not to be rendered on maps for normal people. ancient isn't good, because it's not that it's old, but that it's no longer. There are rails near me from 1844 over which dozens of trains run daily, and some from 1876 or so that are very hard to find. (The Fitchburg, and the Marlboro Branch, for the NE train nerds.) pgpkxOmDg1PLp.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
