Re: New versions of The Bat!
On Monday, July 26, 2010, 9:20:45 PM, Gene Kearns wrote: HOWEVER, tonight's experiences with Version 4 makes it clear that Backup and Restore just doesn't work. you are using an awfully old beta. couldn't more recent versions perhaps perform better? -- Dwight A. Corrin 316.303.9385 phone ahead to fax dcorrin at fastmail.fm photo galleries at http://dcorrin.smugmug.com photo blog at http://dcorrin.aminus3.com http://photos.vfxy.com/photoblogs/5882 Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.2.36.2 on Windows Vista version 6,0 (Service Pack 2) Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Marek, As a small request for the new version, could it be possible to manualy choose S/Mime certificates and not only choose a certificate with a matching email address ? It's a long time request on this list, added on the bug tracker begining of this year... https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=7857 Le lundi 28 juin 2010 à 16:53:49, vous écriviez : Hello all, Monday, June 14, 2010, Martin Schneider wrote: Well, I think real The Bat users did buy an upgrade soon after the new version came out. In my eyes the bigger problem is the lag of IMAP support (which was promised), no real plugin functionality (ala Thunderbird), etc. plugin interface usage is markedly improved and will allow plugin writers to access messages, message bodies, folders, accounts, addressbook entries, toolbars etc. -- Cordialement, Stephane email : antarex (AT) freenet (DOT) be Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Martin, Monday, June 14, 2010, 3:28:02 PM, you wrote: Well, I think real The Bat users did buy an upgrade soon after the new version came out. In my eyes the bigger problem is the lag of IMAP support (which was promised), no real plugin functionality (ala Thunderbird), etc. This is exactly the issue IMHO. -- Warmest regards, Paul Created using TheBat! 4.2.36.4 on Windows 7 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: New versions of The Bat!
Hello all, Monday, June 14, 2010, Martin Schneider wrote: Well, I think real The Bat users did buy an upgrade soon after the new version came out. In my eyes the bigger problem is the lag of IMAP support (which was promised), no real plugin functionality (ala Thunderbird), etc. plugin interface usage is markedly improved and will allow plugin writers to access messages, message bodies, folders, accounts, addressbook entries, toolbars etc. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 4.2.36.4 under Windows 7 6.1 Build 7600 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, AntispamSniper v 3.2.4.5 Notebook Thinkpad, Core2 Duo 2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Gleason, Saturday, June 19, 2010, 11:57:42 AM, you wrote: G There probably isn't much point in us discussing what Rit should G do. They will decide and let us know. MS is the only software G provider I know of that provides fixes for past versions of G anything. The overhead gets overwhelming if you don't have very G deep pockets. Legal warranties not withstanding. If a software G company can even make the current version fixed and better than G previous, it is enough for me. A lot of them don't seem to be able. Right. The big difference is that MS is providing the operating system on which everything else runs. That is different than the application provider. MS doesn't provide that same long term support for Office, for example. There =is= something that I would like to get a bit more info on. Is there going to be a purchase price and then a lower cost 'maintenance fee' or will there just be one cost to start or to continue? Hmmm, also what about resuming maintenance some time after it has expired? -- Best regards, MikeDmailto:miked_...@verizon.net Using The Bat! v4.2.36.4 on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6002 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Maxim, Le dimanche 13 juin 2010 à 18:45:36, vous écriviez : The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the period by paying the fee. Not a bad thing for me, *but* fix of existing bugs/vulnerabilities must *always* be free, at least during a normal product life time... for microsoft products it's near of 10 years (Microsoft provided critical updates for Office 2k up to june 2009, and windows 2k to june 2010... products availables since 1999)... It will not be so easy to allow this with a registration period not bound with the version number... if you find in 2018 a critical vulnerabilities existing since version 5.0, how will you allow customers with expired registration since 2012 to fix it without paying anything ? (just an example) Do not forget : security vulnerabilities are covered by the legal warranty of any product as a latent defect, it's not limited by time... -- Cordialement, Stephanecourrier : anta...@freenet.be Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Stephane Bouvard wrote: Hi Maxim, Le dimanche 13 juin 2010 à 18:45:36, vous écriviez : The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the period by paying the fee. Not a bad thing for me, *but* fix of existing bugs/vulnerabilities must *always* be free, at least during a normal product life time... for microsoft products it's near of 10 years (Microsoft provided critical updates for Office 2k up to june 2009, and windows 2k to june 2010... products availables since 1999)... It will not be so easy to allow this with a registration period not bound with the version number... if you find in 2018 a critical vulnerabilities existing since version 5.0, how will you allow customers with expired registration since 2012 to fix it without paying anything ? (just an example) Do not forget : security vulnerabilities are covered by the legal warranty of any product as a latent defect, it's not limited by time... There probably isn't much point in us discussing what Rit should do. They will decide and let us know. MS is the only software provider I know of that provides fixes for past versions of anything. The overhead gets overwhelming if you don't have very deep pockets. Legal warranties not withstanding. If a software company can even make the current version fixed and better than previous, it is enough for me. A lot of them don't seem to be able. -- Gleason Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Gleason wrote: Stephane Bouvard wrote: Hi Maxim, Le dimanche 13 juin 2010 à 18:45:36, vous écriviez : The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the period by paying the fee. Not a bad thing for me, *but* fix of existing bugs/vulnerabilities must *always* be free, at least during a normal product life time... for microsoft products it's near of 10 years (Microsoft provided critical updates for Office 2k up to june 2009, and windows 2k to june 2010... products availables since 1999)... It will not be so easy to allow this with a registration period not bound with the version number... if you find in 2018 a critical vulnerabilities existing since version 5.0, how will you allow customers with expired registration since 2012 to fix it without paying anything ? (just an example) Do not forget : security vulnerabilities are covered by the legal warranty of any product as a latent defect, it's not limited by time... There probably isn't much point in us discussing what Rit should do. They will decide and let us know. MS is the only software provider I know of that provides fixes for past versions of anything. The overhead gets overwhelming if you don't have very deep pockets. Legal warranties not withstanding. If a software company can even make the current version fixed and better than previous, it is enough for me. A lot of them don't seem to be able. So who's on my list of the unable? Here's three for starters, all of which I have paid for: Pocomail Pegasus Chaos Intellect Rit can stand tall when it compares itself to those. -- Gleason Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Ian, On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:08:20 +1000 GMT (17/Jun/10, 13:08 PM +0700 GMT), Ian A. White wrote: IAW So, you can see, the road to subscriptions can be quite rocky. It IAW gives the software vendor a somewhat better revenue stream (no IAW issues with that), however it does also demand more of them. Exactly, that is my point too. The vendor puts himself under more pressure to deliver (and not only promise) improvements. Otherwise the software and most likely his company will die. That's why I like it and consider it customer-friendly. -- Cheers, Thomas. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.2.33.9 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
G'day Jay, On Thursday, June 17, 2010, at 3:49:10 PM, you (Jay Walker) wrote: JW 2010/6/14 Ian A. White r...@thebat.net: So I take it that The Bat! is going to move to a subscription model? JW Ian, it doesn't strike me as much of a move. For just about all JW practical purposes, TB licensing has been a subscription model since JW v2.0. :) It isn't really, just that maybe it needed to be said. RITLabs are being up front about this, however there can be twists and turns. I might be a touch jaded as a lot of the software I use that went to a subscription model started out OK, but then some of the turns saw it become nothing more than a revenue raiser. Originally there was the promise of upgrades during the currency of a subscription, only all that went out the window when it became annual new version releases. This meant there were no upgrades at all. There was the promise of support, only no support was offered. It had to be provided by dealers under a separate commercial arrangement. Then it moved to a retirement policy where if you had not upgraded for more than 3 new releases, you had to re-buy. The licence went from being a perpetual licence that had to be refreshed every 3 years, and once retired, they were reluctant to refresh it for another 3 years - never mind about upgrades. So, you can see, the road to subscriptions can be quite rocky. It gives the software vendor a somewhat better revenue stream (no issues with that), however it does also demand more of them. So, no real issues, just that some can have issues with it. That sounds like Quicken ... -- Rick You're only young once; you can be immature forever v4.2.36.4 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
2010/6/14 Ian A. White r...@thebat.net: So I take it that The Bat! is going to move to a subscription model? Ian, it doesn't strike me as much of a move. For just about all practical purposes, TB licensing has been a subscription model since v2.0. :) -- jaywalker Windows XP Pro SP3 The Bat! Pro 4.2.36.4 OTFE Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
On Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 1:12:35, Franz Schoeler wrote: Did you know that you in fact do not own (!) are not the real owner of your MS OS? Ever read the EULA? That you are not allowed to sell it or your paid-for Office??? At least seperately, only with your complete computer? That actually depends on how you bought your software. If it's a DSP/OEM version, it's tied to the computer it was bought with (since these versions cost between 20 and 50% of the full retail package; you can't move these versions to another computer either). If it's a FPP (boxed) version, you can resell it, or move to another machine when you buy it (boxed versions of Office also allow you to install it to a fixed and portable computer at the same time). -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ [ The Bat! 4.2.36.4 on Windows 7 6.1.7600. ] If it says one size fits all, it doesn't fit anyone. -- Julian's Law Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Gleason, IMAP. Exactly. Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi, The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. Time to say goodby. You fix html-views bugs in 5-10 following versions and after how much years you like to get cash for a complete new imap implementation. If this does not work ? You fix and fix and fix and fix the next 3 years and after 12 month the subscription have to be renew ? V5: 29$ - OK, will pay that once but not 15$ pear year for nothung than fixing html-view. Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello F.P., On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:18:36 +0200 GMT (15/Jun/10, 23:18 PM +0700 GMT), F.P. wrote: The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. FP Time to say goodby. I suggest to wait, this time. FP You fix html-views bugs in 5-10 following versions and after how FP much years you like to get cash for a complete new imap FP implementation. If this does not work ? You fix and fix and fix FP and fix the next 3 years and after 12 month the subscription have FP to be renew ? I understand (y)our current payment will be good into v5. Just see whether your favourite bug is fixed by the time the subscription expires. If not, everybody will understand if you say good-bye. FP V5: 29$ - OK, will pay that once but not 15$ pear year for nothung FP than fixing html-view. I agree with you. But Ritlabs have put themselves under pressure now, and you are not expected to pay again (the amount or time period has not been announced yet, dunno how you arrive at US$ 15/year) if there is no improvement with regards to your favourate bug. -- Cheers, Thomas. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.2.33.9 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Maxim, you wrote and made these points on the subject of - New versions of The Bat!: mid:1756635861.20100614140...@ritlabs.com So the version the user has when the subscription expires will continue to work and he will just not be able to upgrade? Or will his current version stop working? Maxim Masiutin The user will be unable to upgrade, Maxim Masiutin but the current version will Maxim Masiutin continue working. May I suggest that a user could trial a potential upgrade, say for a short period, to see if now is the right time to upgrade. This way, users can assess the value to them of upgrading and, importantly, check that a bug of special interest is resolved. If this 'trial' upgrade is available then the user would at the ned of the trial have a message to request the user to pay up or revert to the version they were previously using. Best regards, Graham -- Graham Howe mail mailto:gh...@mcb.net Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 on windows version 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Graham. You wrote on Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 9:08:33 PM: If this 'trial' upgrade is available then the user would at the ned of the trial have a message to request the user to pay up or revert to the version they were previously using. Yes, this will be possible. The user will be able to revert to a version that was previously activated. -- Maxim mailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Franz! On Monday, June 14, 2010 at 1:54:33 AM you wrote: What's happening here? The same cost-intensive upgrade routine as with some other software manufacturers is planned? Actually RITLabs, with all shortcomings, already delivers quite well, though mainly under the guise of 'beta'. In the past people complained about paying anew whenever the company, quite arbitrary, decided they call the next version a major one. Since they already delivered the goods via beta or minor versions in the preceding major version number whinging was understandable. btw: Does anyone like programs that are practically loaned for a given time-window? First of all most subscription models for software are not for the program but for service and support, you don't 'borrow' a program, you buy past development plus an added value of future development. It's called an investment. Many programs in many fields are now good enough to last many users for a lifetime when it comes to features. Most programs don't even need much service and support apart from the odd security update [a little more than odd for browsers], hence a 1-year or 2-year subscription makes a lot of sense. Or you could go the Adobe way and pay hefty money every 18 months for a new major version - with only minor [security] updates in-between. -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] The Bat 4.2.36.1 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Chat info upon request I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. [Galileo Galilei] Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Thomas! On Monday, June 14, 2010 at 5:12:18 AM you wrote: Or will his current version stop working? You mean as with all other programs sold on a 1-year investment-into-the-future basis? Also kindly advise about tech support the user will receive - TBUDL is free for all at the moment. I don't think you mean you will forcibly unsubscribe non-payers. IIRC, TBUDL is not owned by RITLabs. BTW, I've yet to see a company closing its forums to customers just because clients aren't interested in buying a new version of a program they own. What is it, footbal WC not interesting enough or why do we discuss a revenue model well established for a decade? Just because RITLabs took a while, a long while, to adopt it? Or because they were nice enough to tell us up front before having every little detail checked and written down by some shysters? ... now I understand why BP doesn't talk to journalists ... -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] The Bat 4.2.36.1 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Chat info upon request Impoliteness is the mildew of people. [Jasper Fforde] Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Franz. You wrote on Monday, June 14, 2010, 2:54:33 AM: will The Bat! then start/boot again in tenths of seconds instead of 29 seconds as right now on this computer? Let us figure why it starts so slowly. How many folders and address book entries do you have, how many plugins, etc.. Do you run over a network? -- Maxim mailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Thomas, Monday, June 14, 2010, 6:12:18 AM, you wrote: So the version the user has when the subscription expires will continue to work and he will just not be able to upgrade? Or will his current version stop working? The user will be unable to upgrade, but the current version will continue working. Also kindly advise about tech support the user will receive - TBUDL is free for all at the moment. I don't think you mean you will forcibly unsubscribe non-payers. This will mostly apply to https://www.ritlabs.com/en/support/ticket_list.php , not to TBBETA. I am sure you would have told us how long the subscription period is, had you made the decision yet. Please let us know what period you are thinking about. We have not yet make the decision. Seeing how many years are between major versions, and full IMAP support having been promised for v2 (that was sometime in the last century), I think you will lose most of your customers unless you fix the old bugs and deliver on your promises before the first period expires. You have addressed the important issue. That's why we plan to allow the users who have purchased The Bat! key for version 4 since February 7, 2008 (or later) to get updates of version 5 during about a year without payment. -- Best regards, Maximmailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Maxim! You have addressed the important issue. That's why we plan to allow the users who have purchased The Bat! key for version 4 since February 7, 2008 (or later) to get updates of version 5 during about a year without payment. I was surprised that no one raised that question up to now. Good to know that I will be able to enjoy a better version TB! without being forced to repay for it. -- Regards, Raymund Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Franz. You wrote on Monday, June 14, 2010, 2:54:33 AM: will The Bat! then start/boot again in tenths of seconds instead of 29 seconds as right now on this computer? Let us figure why it starts so slowly. How many folders and address book entries do you have, how many plugins, etc.. Do you run over a network? 27 address book entries/names - not really very many. Only one account. Don't run over a network, one provider. I wonder if I should delete The Bat! and re-install it from scratch as I don't understand why it's become booting so slowly. Franz Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Professional Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 -- Maxim mailto:m...@ritlabs.com I Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: New versions of The Bat!
Hello all, Monday, June 14, 2010, Franz Schoeler wrote: 27 address book entries/names - not really very many. Only one account. Don't run over a network, one provider. I wonder if I should delete The Bat! and re-install it from scratch as I don't understand why it's become booting so slowly. You have no antispam/antivir/macro plugin installed? -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 4.2.36.4 under Windows 7 6.1 Build 7600 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, AntispamSniper v 3.2.4.5 Notebook Thinkpad, Core2 Duo 2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Dear Ian, @14-Jun-2010, 22:29 +1000 (14-Jun 13:29 here) Ian A. White [IAW] in mid:484593561.20100614222...@wai.com.au said to Dierk: ... snip IAW To RITLabs credit, they are not having the software fail to run IAW unless a valid subscription is present, just upgrades. This is no different from the previous licensing model. RIT are NOT moving to a subscription model, just changing the registration basis from version number sealed to time period validity. Great plan IMO! The period hasn't yet been settled on, but I believe it may well be longer than one year. The previous licensing system didn't allow you to upgrade to the next version on a version number change, however recently you bought your key. The new system does and *that's the only difference*! What was the reaction of folks who'd only just registered (say) v3 when v4 came out? Not good, remember? Well - this is the fix for that problem. -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v5.0.0.4 ALPHA on Windows 7 6.1.7600 ' pgpcVofygg19P.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Marck! On Monday, June 14, 2010 at 3:02:47 PM you wrote: This is no different from the previous licensing model. RIT are NOT moving to a subscription model Let's face it, I was the one describing the new model as a subscription [to service and support as added value to buying the program] model. I did that on purpose, first to separate the actual program use from support. Secondly because already some companies have a model where you have to pay extra for support. -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] The Bat 4.2.36.1 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Chat info upon request With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. [Steven Weinberg] Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Ian! On Monday, June 14, 2010 at 2:29:24 PM you wrote: Actually, the only issue for me is not that The Bat! is moving to a subscriptionmodel, but that the language used cloaks it in something else. Although I am a non-native speaker of English - German at that! - I tend to give non-native writers/readers/speakers a lot of leeway, probably even as much as I give to native speakers. Maxim and RITLabs aren't Bristish, Manx, South African, Australian, Irish, or US American. No idea if they have professional PR assistance. Hence, my interpretation is usually in their favour. This also locks me in to the operating system as AutoCAD cannot run on anything else reliably. I know what you mean but that has nothing to do with what kind of payment model a company chooses unless the enforce current licence specs in most licence documents - in which case the user has no say at all of when, how, where to use what he [the user] thinks of as 'his'. BTW, TB does support and use the standards for e-mail and contacts. I've successfully used these standards to exchange data between TB and other programs, from contacts [TB-Palm; TB-Outlook etc.] to mail messages. -- Dierk Haasis [DH² Publishing] The Bat 4.2.36.1 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Chat info upon request Die Zeit wird kommen, wo unsere Nachkommen sich wundern, da wir so offenbare Dinge nicht gewusst haben. [Lucius Annaeus Seneca] Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello all, Monday, June 14, 2010, Franz Schoeler wrote: 27 address book entries/names - not really very many. Only one account. Don't run over a network, one provider. I wonder if I should delete The Bat! and re-install it from scratch as I don't understand why it's become booting so slowly. You have no antispam/antivir/macro plugin installed? no, definitely not. Only use Avira Antir Premium every 3 or 4 weeks; never found anything... Franz Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Professional Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Marck, Monday, June 14, 2010, 3:02:47 PM, you wrote: The previous licensing system didn't allow you to upgrade to the next version on a version number change, however recently you bought your key. The new system does and *that's the only difference*! What was the reaction of folks who'd only just registered (say) v3 when v4 came out? Not good, remember? Well - this is the fix for that problem. Well, I think real The Bat users did buy an upgrade soon after the new version came out. In my eyes the bigger problem is the lag of IMAP support (which was promised), no real plugin functionality (ala Thunderbird), etc. -- Best regards, Martinmailto:mr_t...@arcor.de Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Maxim, On 14-06-2010 13:07, you wrote in mid:1756635861.20100614140...@ritlabs.com: Seeing how many years are between major versions, and full IMAP support having been promised for v2 (that was sometime in the last century), I think you will lose most of your customers unless you fix the old bugs and deliver on your promises before the first period expires. You have addressed the important issue. That's why we plan to allow the users who have purchased The Bat! key for version 4 since February 7, 2008 (or later) to get updates of version 5 during about a year without payment. I also think it's an important issue. I for one have wanted to pay for another version without working IMAP (promised since version 2.x). -- greeting Best regards /greeting author Peter Fjelsten /author thebat version 4.0.39.33 (BETA) Pro /thebat versionextras MyGate, AVG /extras env. 12 IMAP (Courier) 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 1 POP3 MyGate, 300K+ msgs. /env. os Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6002 Service Pack 2 /os Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Maxim, On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:07:14 +0300 GMT (14/Jun/10, 18:07 PM +0700 GMT), Maxim Masiutin wrote: So the version the user has when the subscription expires will continue to work and he will just not be able to upgrade? Or will his current version stop working? MM The user will be unable to upgrade, but the current version will MM continue working. Thanks, this is reassuring. Also kindly advise about tech support the user will receive - TBUDL is free for all at the moment. I don't think you mean you will forcibly unsubscribe non-payers. MM This will mostly apply to MM https://www.ritlabs.com/en/support/ticket_list.php MM , not to TBBETA. Fair enough. This is costing your staff time, so you will only provide it to paying subscribers. However, I didn't even know about it and wonder whether it is used a lot. Good to hear that TBUDL/TBBETA are not affected. I am sure you would have told us how long the subscription period is, had you made the decision yet. Please let us know what period you are thinking about. MM We have not yet make the decision. I'm sure you will keep us informed. Seeing how many years are between major versions, and full IMAP support having been promised for v2 (that was sometime in the last century), I think you will lose most of your customers unless you fix the old bugs and deliver on your promises before the first period expires. MM You have addressed the important issue. That's why we plan to allow MM the users who have purchased The Bat! key for version 4 since February MM 7, 2008 (or later) to get updates of version 5 during about a year MM without payment. That sounds good! You are even throwing in something for free; so far, a new version had always cost money. FWIW you have my support for the new policy. If the price is right, but of course, the exact same applies to charging per version or per time period. I for one prefer the time period. -- Cheers, Thomas. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.2.33.9 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Dierk, On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:21:57 +0200 GMT (14/Jun/10, 14:21 PM +0700 GMT), Dierk Haasis wrote: Or will his current version stop working? DH You mean as with all other programs sold on a 1-year DH investment-into-the-future basis? No, I meant with *this* program. I mistakenly assumed that this was clear from the context, my apologies. Also kindly advise about tech support the user will receive - TBUDL is free for all at the moment. I don't think you mean you will forcibly unsubscribe non-payers. DH IIRC, TBUDL is not owned by RITLabs. BTW, I've yet to see a company DH closing its forums to customers just because clients aren't interested DH in buying a new version of a program they own. Thanks for your input, but please see Maxim's reply to me. He has answered my question to my full satisfaction. DH What is it, footbal WC not interesting enough or why do we discuss DH a revenue model well established for a decade? We are discussing it because Ritlabs opened this thread so that we discuss it. I appreciate it a lot that they run it by this ML and not surprise us afterwards. In fact, I *am* surprised about this thread, but in a positive way. I don't get the reference to the football WC. I think it's a completely unrelated revenue model. Kindly explain. DH Just because RITLabs took a while, a long while, to adopt it? Or DH because they were nice enough to tell us up front before having DH every little detail checked and written down by some shysters? DH ... now I understand why BP doesn't talk to journalists ... I don't really understand what you are driving at. Does your comment have anything to do with contributing to this thread? If so, kindly enlighten me. -- Cheers, Thomas. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.2.33.9 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Franz, Monday, June 14, 2010, 3:39:13 PM, you wrote: I wonder if I should delete The Bat! and re-install it from scratch as I don't understand why it's become booting so slowly. No, please not delete it. It should run properly as is. I will get back to you later to figure out what may be wrong, and we together will solve the problem. -- Best regards, Maximmailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Ian, G'day Dierk, On Monday, June 14, 2010, at 5:13:41 PM, you (Dierk Haasis) wrote: DH Actually RITLabs, with all shortcomings, already delivers quite well, DH though mainly under the guise of 'beta'. Actually, the only issue for me is not that The Bat! is moving to a subscriptionmodel, but that the language used cloaks it in something else. The issue with subscription software is not that you pay an annual subscription to use it, but that your data becomes locked to a particular piece of software. Now if there was a standard format for the storage and retrieval of e-mail messages, then no one would be too fussed as they could use software A or software B. IMAP. -- Gleason Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Alto, On 13-06-2010 23:30, you wrote in mid:87868903.20100613233...@treadstone79.de: With this proposed system, a user expects his bugs to be fixed inside his term of payment. Up until now, a year's time was about nothing for the developement of TheBat - see all the bug tracker entries that have been around since the turn of the century. I actually think you may have a point here. -- greeting Best regards /greeting author Peter Fjelsten /author thebat version 4.0.39.33 (BETA) Pro /thebat versionextras MyGate, AVG /extras env. 12 IMAP (Courier) 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 1 POP3 MyGate, 300K+ msgs. /env. os Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6002 Service Pack 2 /os Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
On Sunday, June 13, 2010, 6:54:33 PM, Franz Schoeler wrote: will The Bat! then start/boot again in tenths of seconds instead of 29 seconds as right now on this computer? I think they may charge extra to diagnose your computer problems. btw: Does anyone like programs that are practically loaned for a given time-window? not my favorite model, but not that uncommon in the current market. I've lived in rented houses often, and have many friends who lease cars. I have lots of old versions of software, on 5 1/4 floppies, for example, which are pretty useless even though I still own them. -- Dwight A. Corrin 316.303.9385 phone ahead to fax dcorrin at fastmail.fm photo galleries at http://dcorrin.smugmug.com photo blog at http://dcorrin.aminus3.com http://photos.vfxy.com/photoblogs/5882 Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.2.36.4 on Windows 7 version 6,1 () Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
On Sunday, June 13, 2010, 6:54:33 PM, Franz Schoeler wrote: will The Bat! then start/boot again in tenths of seconds instead of 29 seconds as right now on this computer? I think they may charge extra to diagnose your computer problems.*** btw: Does anyone like programs that are practically loaned for a given time-window? not my favorite model, but not that uncommon in the current market. I've lived in rented houses often, and have many friends who lease cars. I have lots of old versions of software, on 5 1/4 floppies, for example, which are pretty useless even though I still own them. *** No, not this company. Why should they? Even though they are at the crossroads for their technology, development and general future, I think. Did you know that you in fact do not own (!) are not the real owner of your MS OS? Ever read the EULA? That you are not allowed to sell it or your paid-for Office??? At least seperately, only with your complete computer? This stuff never went before the EUGH in Luxemburg. The crazy thing is: the EULAs say they LOAN it to you under certain conditions. You are not allowed to SELL what you paid for. (btw: is it allowed to sell your private license (paid for) for a given The Bat! version to someone after you don't use it anymore?) All this stuff reminds me of this great rendition of Boz Scaggs on his solo Atlantic debut of Loan Me A Dime ;-) I can only recommend anyone who doesn't know this in the Beta List to give it a listen ;-) Afterwards going back to The Bat! problems of the moment... Franz Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Professional Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Ian, Sunday, June 13, 2010, 6:14:38 PM, you wrote: IAW So I take it that The Bat! is going to move to a subscription model? That is certainly what it sounds like. Now I don't mind that in principal, =but= 1.) what will the subscription cost? 2.) Rit would also need to address the issues in the the earlier posts about the need for timely updates fixes. -- Best regards, MikeDmailto:miked_...@verizon.net Using The Bat! v4.2.36.4 on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6002 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Ian, Monday, June 14, 2010, 8:29:24 AM, you wrote: IAW Actually, the only issue for me is not that The Bat! is moving to a IAW subscriptionmodel, but that the language used cloaks it in something IAW else. Well whether it is called 'subscription' pricing or not, does not really bother me. For me, what maters is what you get and how much it costs. IAW The issue with subscription software is not that you pay an annual IAW subscription to use it, but that your data becomes locked to a IAW particular piece of software. I certainly understand =that=, and I have to say that I am surprised that no one else has the ability to import autocad files. I know that was not always the case. A company where I worked used SolidWorks and it could import autocad. Of corusse that =was= a while ago. Anyway ... Nothing I have seen discussed so far changes the ability of TB to import/export messages, so I am not sure what you are concerned about here. If it is not a problem now, why would it be a problem with the new payemnt system that changes nothing in how the program works? -- Best regards, MikeDmailto:miked_...@verizon.net Using The Bat! v4.2.36.4 on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6002 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
lunes, 14 jun 2010 at 15:42, it seems you wrote: Hello all, Monday, June 14, 2010, Franz Schoeler wrote: You have no antispam/antivir/macro plugin installed? no, definitely not. Only use Avira Antir Premium every 3 or 4 weeks; never found anything... We should need to know how many mails does have your mailbase and what specs have your machine. My machine has some years (Athlon 64 3.2Ghz and 1Gb of RAM) and I have more accounts than you and it starts very fast. Do you ran usually the Maintenance Centre? -- /\/ Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Professional / \ / \ / Windows XP (5.1.2600 Service Pack 3) /\/ e t \/ i c i o u s Plugins: AntiSpamSniper 3.2.4.5 and miniRelayPlug 0.05.50 Moderator of Spanish TBUDL Spanish Translator of The Bat! Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Tbbeta. The new version will be version 5.0. The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the period by paying the fee. The changes to the program are the most significant that we have ever made from version to version. We have removed 1.7MB or old source code so far, and are using the new code instead. The program internal architecture is changed to allow smooth IMAP implementations and many new improvements like undo/redo for message management, and so on. You have probably noticed that we have marked a lot of bugtracker entries as “verify wait” We will release first alpha versions soon, so you will be able to test these fixes and mark them “fixed” on the bugtracker. As about the IMAP in these alpha versions, there will be the following limitation for IMAP so far: 1. Outbox and Sent folders will be local; 2. There will be no options configurable except the number of simultaneous connections. We recommend you to use about five connections if your server allows this. -- Maxim mailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
ever made from version to version. We have removed 1.7MB or old source code so far, and are using the new code instead. The program Does this mean that The Bat will finally work on supported Windows versions only and will make advances of those version? Like Jump Lists, etc. -- Best regards, Vilius Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Vilius. You wrote on Sunday, June 13, 2010, 7:53:12 PM: Does this mean that The Bat will finally work on supported Windows versions only and will make advances of those version? Like Jump Lists, etc. We didn't work on Windows-specific features like Jump-lists of Windows 7. We've just changes the entire architecture to make it more reliable and to allow to implement robust IMAP. -- Maxim mailto:m...@ritlabs.com Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi Maxim, Sunday, June 13, 2010, 10:45:36 AM, you wrote: Hello, Tbbeta. The new version will be version 5.0. The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. That sounds very good, as far as I understand it. Thank you! As about the IMAP in these alpha versions, there will be the following limitation for IMAP so far: 1. Outbox and Sent folders will be local; 2. There will be no options configurable except the number of simultaneous connections. We recommend you to use about five connections if your server allows this. That also sounds very good so far. I just checked in Thunderbird, under advanced options (under account settings for my IMAP account with Gmail). It has a default setting of 5 for Maximum number of server connections to cache. But one can change the number. Let me check what options are available at Gmail I also note that in Gmail's setup instructions for Thunderbird 3 (Gmail lists e-mail account setting instructions for several different e-mail programs), it states: Thunderbird will query the Gmail server and automatically configure the appropriate IMAP connection settings for your account. When complete, Thunderbird will show you a confirmation dialog similar to this one.. .. and then it shows a screenshot of what appears next in Thunderbird. I'll send the screenshot as an attachment if you wish. Please let me know. I hope the above helps a little bit in your work. -- Take Care, Bob -- Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me. This is our function, our challenge, our fulfillment - and our inheritance, to accept, embrace and share beyond all manmade boundaries. Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Windows 7 6.1 build 7600 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hi, MM The new version will be version 5.0. The registration system will MM be changed [...] Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to MM newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the MM period by paying the fee. You realize that using this modus RIT will have to start delivering inside a reasonable time frame? In the past, RIT could always say now don't panick over this not-working long-promised feature, we will fix it as soon as moon shines/bell rings/Atlantis found. And the user couldn't really complain because he'd always get another version at some point in time - if he lived long enough, of course. With this proposed system, a user expects his bugs to be fixed inside his term of payment. Up until now, a year's time was about nothing for the developement of TheBat - see all the bug tracker entries that have been around since the turn of the century. Not that I'm complaining, but is RIT really willing to take this risk with a track history like that? -- MfG, Altomailto:a...@treadstone79.de The Bat! 4.2.18 Christmas Edition Windows 7 6.1 build 7600 pgpxzx9Cppm8c.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello, Tbbeta. The new version will be version 5.0. The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user prolongs the period by paying the fee. Hello Maxim, will The Bat! then start/boot again in tenths of seconds instead of 29 seconds as right now on this computer? What's happening here? The same cost-intensive upgrade routine as with some other software manufacturers is planned? btw: Does anyone like programs that are practically loaned for a given time-window? I keep wondering. Franz Using The Bat! 4.2.36.4 Professional Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: New versions of The Bat!
Hello Maxim, On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:45:36 +0300 GMT (13/Jun/10, 23:45 PM +0700 GMT), Maxim Masiutin wrote: MM The new version will be version 5.0. MM The registration system will be changed. We didn’t yet completely MM figured out the final changes to the registration system, but the MM preliminary changes are the following: registration will allow MM using The Bat! for a particular period of time. It will not be MM bound to version numbers as before. During this time period, the MM user will be able to update to newer versions of The Bat! and MM receive technical support. Upon the expiration of the term, no MM updates to newer versions will be possible unless the user MM prolongs the period by paying the fee. So the version the user has when the subscription expires will continue to work and he will just not be able to upgrade? Or will his current version stop working? Also kindly advise about tech support the user will receive - TBUDL is free for all at the moment. I don't think you mean you will forcibly unsubscribe non-payers. I am sure you would have told us how long the subscription period is, had you made the decision yet. Please let us know what period you are thinking about. Seeing how many years are between major versions, and full IMAP support having been promised for v2 (that was sometime in the last century), I think you will lose most of your customers unless you fix the old bugs and deliver on your promises before the first period expires. This way, you are putting yourself under pressure to fix these bugs, which is good for us, the users. I, therefore, appreciate the subscription approach as customer-friendly. Provided that old versions keep working if the user doesn't pay up for the next period, that is. At least we will have a schedule! So I am curious as to how much time you give yourselves between asking the customers to pay up again or jump the bandwaggon. This is much better than basing this on version numbers that don't have any schedules. I like it. -- Cheers, Thomas. http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.2.33.9 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current beta is 4.2.33.9 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
