Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hi On Monday 2 March 2009 at 5:13:37 PM, in mid:5610023999.20090302091...@pobox.com, Bill McQuillan wrote: I haven't a clue what *this* message will look like! :-) Pound signs good. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- Best regards, MFPA Greater than being great is being grateful. Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hi On Sunday 1 March 2009 at 6:35:44 PM, in mid:448171083.20090301103...@pobox.com, Bill McQuillan wrote: I have noticed that the TBUDL list server makes several changes to each message that it forwards: Adding the List-Id, etc. header fields Adding the Current version... to the bottom of text/plain messages Adding a new Current version... part to multipart/mixed messages I also notice that the Content-Type and Content-Transfer-Encoding header fields are placed with the List-* fields in the header and not with the Mime-Version field where most clients place them. Looking at the headers/kludges, there is a huge difference between the message received directly and the one received via the list server. I don't see that posting the two for comparison would serve a purpose but I can later if anybody asks. This leads me to believe that the list server builds a new message and then after deleting the existing Content-* fields recreates them by scanning the message for non-ascii characters and setting the the Content-Type field to us-ascii if that will suffice. I shall include a couple of pound signs. IIRC, that is not a us-ascii character. Here goes: ££. Wonder if it will still use us-ascii? There is some justification for this in the Email RFCs where it shows a preference for the simplest level necessary when encoding a message. Clearly, TB! doesn't share that preference - so it sends using the character set you tell it to use. (-; In a separate pet peeve of mine, it seems that this much processing of each message would make it straightforward for the list server to determine whether a cut mark already exists and insert one just before the footer if necessary. This could reduce the fish traffic on this list considerably! end peeve :-) Some of the messages (for example mid:160674186.20090213171...@optusnet.com.au) show the list footer in a separate tab. Would that also prevent them being quoted in the event that the poster missed out his cut mark and the replier failed to trim? -- Best regards, MFPA An idealist is a person who helps other people to be prosperous Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hi On Monday 2 March 2009 at 2:38:16 PM, in mid:392566194.20090302143...@my_localhost, MFPA wrote: Hi On Sunday 1 March 2009 at 6:35:44 PM, in mid:448171083.20090301103...@pobox.com, Bill McQuillan wrote: [...] This leads me to believe that the list server builds a new message and then after deleting the existing Content-* fields recreates them by scanning the message for non-ascii characters and setting the the Content-Type field to us-ascii if that will suffice. I shall include a couple of pound signs. IIRC, that is not a us-ascii character. Here goes: ££. Wonder if it will still use us-ascii? No: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT So it looks like you may have explained it. (-: I notice 8BIT (capitals) for that one, whereas 7bit does not get capitalised when charset is us-ascii. -- Best regards, MFPA If you can't convince them, confuse them. Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
On Mon, 2009-03-02, MFPA wrote: On Monday 2 March 2009 at 2:38:16 PM, in mid:392566194.20090302143...@my_localhost, MFPA wrote: On Sunday 1 March 2009 at 6:35:44 PM, in mid:448171083.20090301103...@pobox.com, Bill McQuillan wrote: [...] This leads me to believe that the list server builds a new message and then after deleting the existing Content-* fields recreates them by scanning the message for non-ascii characters and setting the the Content-Type field to us-ascii if that will suffice. I shall include a couple of pound signs. IIRC, that is not a us-ascii character. Here goes: ££. Wonder if it will still use us-ascii? No: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT So it looks like you may have explained it. (-: I notice 8BIT (capitals) for that one, whereas 7bit does not get capitalised when charset is us-ascii. Just to add to the confusion, your first message with 2 pound signs arrived at my computer with: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and the pound signs looked good. However, your second message (which you received with iso-8859-15 and 8BIT) arrived at my computer with: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 and the pound signs still looked good. I haven't a clue what *this* message will look like! :-) Clearly more than one modifying server has been processing our mail! Unfortunately, so called MIME downgrading is not usually mentioned in the trace header fields, so we are probably out of luck in tracking down the culprits. Ain't email fun? -- Bill McQuillan bill.mcquil...@pobox.com Using The Bat! 2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 build 2600-Service Pack 2 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
On Monday, March 2, 2009, 11:13:37 AM, Bill McQuillan wrote: I haven't a clue what *this* message will look like! :-) all 3 messages have the pound signs here. (££) -- Dwight A. Corrin 316.303.9385 phone ahead to fax dcorrin at fastmail.fm photo galleries at http://dcorrin.smugmug.com photo blog at http://dcorrin.aminus3.com Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.1.11.6 on Windows XP version 5,1 (Service Pack 3) Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hi On Sunday 1 March 2009 at 1:45:25 AM, in mid:1729309657.20090301084...@thomas-bkk.my-fqdn.de, Thomas Fernandez wrote: I believe you that you send them like this. Somebody between your computer and the list server changes it. Is that supposed to happen? I would expect not. [..] Yahoo? This list is not on Yahoo. No but it seemed a reasonable choice, since I am sending from a Yahoo address (-: And the charset is consistent again. At least I have eliminated my SMTP server app, because it was not used to send that message. The copy in my sentbox definitely says Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit. I cc'd myself last time but unfortunately it didn't turn up yet, so I don't know what turns up back here without going through the list server. A test message sent just to me turns up here with the character set still as it left me. I'll CC this one to myself at a different address as a test. -- Best regards, MFPA Always borrow money from a pessimist - they don't expect it back Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hi On Sunday 1 March 2009 at 2:02:53 PM, in mid:1067220654.20090301140...@my_localhost, MFPA wrote: I cc'd myself last time but unfortunately it didn't turn up yet, so I don't know what turns up back here without going through the list server. A test message sent just to me turns up here with the character set still as it left me. I'll CC this one to myself at a different address as a test. Received the message via the list server and the copy cc'd to myself this time. Guess what - the one via the list server has Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit while the other says Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ? -- Best regards, MFPA No matter where you go, there you are. Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hello MFPA, On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:48:56 + GMT (01/Mar/09, 21:48 +0700 GMT), MFPA wrote: I cc'd myself last time but unfortunately it didn't turn up yet, so I don't know what turns up back here without going through the list server. A test message sent just to me turns up here with the character set still as it left me. I'll CC this one to myself at a different address as a test. M Received the message via the list server and the copy cc'd to myself M this time. M Guess what - the one via the list server has M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii M Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Confirm. M while the other says M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 M Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit M ? Hm. I have no further ideas. I hadn't looked at your email address earlier and didn't notice that you are using Yahoo.co.uk. That seems to rule out the SMTP server, while the fact that others can send to the list in other encodings than us-ascii seems to rule out the list server. Short of MI5/MI6 being at work, I really don't know what can change the encoding. -- Cheers, Thomas. Cannot open file C:\Program Files\The Bat!\cookies.txt http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.1.11 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
On Sun, 2009-03-01, Thomas Fernandez wrote: On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:48:56 + GMT (01/Mar/09, 21:48 +0700 GMT), MFPA wrote: M Received the message via the list server and the copy cc'd to myself M this time. M Guess what - the one via the list server has M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii M Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Confirm. M while the other says M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 M Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit M ? Hm. I have no further ideas. I have noticed that the TBUDL list server makes several changes to each message that it forwards: Adding the List-Id, etc. header fields Adding the Current version... to the bottom of text/plain messages Adding a new Current version... part to multipart/mixed messages I also notice that the Content-Type and Content-Transfer-Encoding header fields are placed with the List-* fields in the header and not with the Mime-Version field where most clients place them. This leads me to believe that the list server builds a new message and then after deleting the existing Content-* fields recreates them by scanning the message for non-ascii characters and setting the the Content-Type field to us-ascii if that will suffice. There is some justification for this in the Email RFCs where it shows a preference for the simplest level necessary when encoding a message. In a separate pet peeve of mine, it seems that this much processing of each message would make it straightforward for the list server to determine whether a cut mark already exists and insert one just before the footer if necessary. This could reduce the fish traffic on this list considerably! end peeve :-) -- Bill McQuillan bill.mcquil...@pobox.com Using The Bat! 2.11 on Windows XP 5.1 build 2600-Service Pack 2 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Always sending us-ascii (was: Thanks for MicroEd's Unicode ability)
Hello MFPA, On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:53:36 + GMT (28/Feb/09, 7:53 +0700 GMT), MFPA wrote: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M However, my outgoing messages for this account are M sent using a local SMTP server and the copy in the M sent list of that app also says Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit M Surely that suggests it's not my machine that is M changing it? In that case, it looks like your SMTP server does that. I would find that strange. M I will give up trying to work out what happened to the character set M of mid:1496799133.20090225192...@my_localhost because I cannot M work out how to reproduce it consistently. Yes, you can. Read on. M My mid:747229546.20090226183...@my_localhost came M back via the list still in utf-8 No: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M but M mid:1854458029.20090226185...@my_localhost came back changed to M us-ascii. It's consistent. Your messages all arrive as us-ascii over here. M mid:908317301.20090227222...@my_localhost in my sentbox has M charset=iso-8859-15 M but the copy I received via the list has M charset=us-ascii As I said, it's consistent. Points to your SMTP server, I'd say. M I am going a bit off-topic for the thread. I have adjusted the thread. You are not off-topic for the list. -- Cheers, Thomas. Cannot open file C:\Program Files\The Bat!\cookies.txt http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.1.11 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii (was: Thanks for MicroEd's Unicode ability)
Hi On Saturday 28 February 2009 at 1:52:08 PM, in mid:8710485007.20090228205...@thomas-bkk.my-fqdn.de, Thomas Fernandez wrote: M came back via the list still in utf-8 No: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M but mid:1854458029.20090226185...@my_localhost came M back changed to us-ascii. It's consistent. Your messages all arrive as us-ascii over here. I never really took much notice before. That is weird because they are sent in Latin 9, or in the same as the message they are in reply to (if available). M mid:908317301.20090227222...@my_localhost in my M sentbox has charset=iso-8859-15 but the copy I M received via the list has charset=us-ascii As I said, it's consistent. Points to your SMTP server, I'd say. Odd, because if I send to myself, the character set does not change (and the message is actually sent out and delivered via a POP server). Still, I'll try sending via Yahoo's server. This message leaves me with a character set of latin 9 (iso-8859-15). M I am going a bit off-topic for the thread. I have adjusted the thread. You are not off-topic for the list. (-; -- Best regards, MFPA During an eruption - move away from the volcano - not towards it Using The Bat! v4.0.38 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Always sending us-ascii
Hello MFPA, On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:20:46 + GMT (01/Mar/09, 4:20 +0700 GMT), MFPA wrote: It's consistent. Your messages all arrive as us-ascii over here. M I never really took much notice before. That is weird because they are M sent in Latin 9, or in the same as the message they are in reply to M (if available). I believe you that you send them like this. Somebody between your computer and the list server changes it. As I said, it's consistent. Points to your SMTP server, I'd say. M Odd, because if I send to myself, the character set does not change M (and the message is actually sent out and delivered via a POP server). That's indeed odd. Because messages from others arrive in different charset encoing, as you have seen, so I don't think it's the list server. I have no more ideas. M Still, I'll try sending via Yahoo's server. This message leaves me M with a character set of latin 9 (iso-8859-15). Yahoo? This list is not on Yahoo. And the charset is consistent again. -- Cheers, Thomas. Cannot open file C:\Program Files\The Bat!\cookies.txt http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.1.11 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.1.11 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
