Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Update on NAA. The tracor d-msk-r was completed last night and tried it out. Someone on this thread said I would find that the lm3900 was acting as a half wave rectifier and he was right. The whole thing is a frequency doubler. But the last stage removes the higher frequency. Its a bandpass filter. The magic goes like this. NAA is at 24,000Hz and the LO is at 23,900 Hz. Result a 100 Hz baseband signal modulates + and - 50 Hz MSK. The doubler multiplies 50 Hz to 100 Hz. the 150 is multiplied and rejected by the bandpass filter. Result, a 100 hz signal only for one of the MSK carriers. The one at 23950 Hz. (Because of the low side LO injection that may be flipped. But no real effect.) I barely looked at the stability of that 100 Hz. The fact is I have no 100 Hz locked reference. There is a bit of humor everyday. Never thought I would need one. Easy enough to make and I will dig in further tonight. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 8:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: A short update on NAA as some sort of reference. Have completed a simple direct conversion circuit using a NE612. A few minor changes because the system only needs 100 Hz or less. It is essentially this circuit. http://www.qsl.net/ik2pii/lf/dcrx136.htm Its receiving NAA just fine with about 1 Vpp out and the official MSK is there. No attempt to use the tracor 900 circuit yet. Also the LO is a HP 3335a locked to the station RB. Somewhat a massive system connected to a small board. A start none the less. Will not be hard to build the tracor d-msk-r to see what happens. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: NAA -50 dbm (1 MV) using a mini-whip. -60 dbm on the k9ay loop. Mini-whip is full of surprises. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz Did measure NAA near Boston 8000uv using a dipole for 80 meters. Looking at various vlf receivers it looks like a LPF or maybe a BPF filter to a ne602 mixer followed by a tl081opamp LPF makes a direct conversion receiver. Then hit the tracor d-msk-r. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Paul wrote: Nat Semi App Note 72 page 18, par. 6.4 shows the configuration for bandpass active filter. This matches the last LM3900 stage, so you would seem to be correct. The shift in filter frequency for 200bps is because the higher modulation rate results in a greater frequency shift. It's like 50hz instead of the 25hz of the 100bps rate. Robert wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. * * * Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. * * * combining the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As f or the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? The circuit as a whole operates as a frequency doubler using full-wave rectification and filtering. The rx LO is 100Hz below the nominal carrier frequency, so in normal (non-MSK) mode, the IF frequency is 100Hz. Referring to the MSK addendum, a received 200 baud MSK signal is 50Hz below nominal, and a 100 baud MSK signal is 25Hz below nominal. With the LO 100 Hz below nominal, this makes the IF frequency 50Hz when receiving a 200 baud MSK signal, and 75 Hz when receiving a 100 baud MSK signal. After doubling, these become 100 Hz (200 baud) and 150 Hz (100 baud), so the BPF is switchable between 100Hz and 150Hz. They used a FET to chop the 150Hz (100 baud) signal with a 50Hz square wave. I can't say I'm impressed with the design, even for the era. The whole instrument is built mostly with LM3900s, which makes it thousands (maybe even millions) of times noisier than it would be if it had been properly designed with standard op-amps. It may work more or less, but it's a fugly way to get there. There are other questionable choices (like the FET chopper, an overall design that depends on lots of one-shots, etc.). The designers knew about the LM301 (there is one in the unit), so
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Ohhh that hurts and you were lucky. I always mark connectors for that exact reason. I was going to download the pictures but it kept trying to download some executable. So will not be able to look at your pictures. Regards Paul. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 4:35 AM, Adrian Constantinescu adrian.valentin.constantine...@gmail.com wrote: Did a major breakthrough! Obviously it was my fault, by mistake i swapped two connectors. My luck is that the power board has some safety elements. OK, now with the connectors in correct position I have 8.5 and 17 volts on the outputs. Getting closer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
A short update on NAA as some sort of reference. Have completed a simple direct conversion circuit using a NE612. A few minor changes because the system only needs 100 Hz or less. It is essentially this circuit. http://www.qsl.net/ik2pii/lf/dcrx136.htm Its receiving NAA just fine with about 1 Vpp out and the official MSK is there. No attempt to use the tracor 900 circuit yet. Also the LO is a HP 3335a locked to the station RB. Somewhat a massive system connected to a small board. A start none the less. Will not be hard to build the tracor d-msk-r to see what happens. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Bill Riches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: NAA -50 dbm (1 MV) using a mini-whip. -60 dbm on the k9ay loop. Mini-whip is full of surprises. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz Did measure NAA near Boston 8000uv using a dipole for 80 meters. Looking at various vlf receivers it looks like a LPF or maybe a BPF filter to a ne602 mixer followed by a tl081opamp LPF makes a direct conversion receiver. Then hit the tracor d-msk-r. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Paul wrote: Nat Semi App Note 72 page 18, par. 6.4 shows the configuration for bandpass active filter. This matches the last LM3900 stage, so you would seem to be correct. The shift in filter frequency for 200bps is because the higher modulation rate results in a greater frequency shift. It's like 50hz instead of the 25hz of the 100bps rate. Robert wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. * * * Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. * * * combining the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As f or the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? The circuit as a whole operates as a frequency doubler using full-wave rectification and filtering. The rx LO is 100Hz below the nominal carrier frequency, so in normal (non-MSK) mode, the IF frequency is 100Hz. Referring to the MSK addendum, a received 200 baud MSK signal is 50Hz below nominal, and a 100 baud MSK signal is 25Hz below nominal. With the LO 100 Hz below nominal, this makes the IF frequency 50Hz when receiving a 200 baud MSK signal, and 75 Hz when receiving a 100 baud MSK signal. After doubling, these become 100 Hz (200 baud) and 150 Hz (100 baud), so the BPF is switchable between 100Hz and 150Hz. They used a FET to chop the 150Hz (100 baud) signal with a 50Hz square wave. I can't say I'm impressed with the design, even for the era. The whole instrument is built mostly with LM3900s, which makes it thousands (maybe even millions) of times noisier than it would be if it had been properly designed with standard op-amps. It may work more or less, but it's a fugly way to get there. There are other questionable choices (like the FET chopper, an overall design that depends on lots of one-shots, etc.). The designers knew about the LM301 (there is one in the unit), so there was really no excuse for using LM3900s. Yeah, the 301 was more expensive -- but this was supposed to be a state-of-the-art measuring device for characterizing good OCXOs down to PPB or below. I simulated the MSK board in LTspice. Let me know (OFFLIST ONLY, please) if you would like the files to play with (662kB ZIP file). (Note that these won't do you any good if you're not an LTspice user.) Again, please do not clutter the list with requests for files -- OFFLIST ONLY, please (check your headers carefully before you hit Send). Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Adrian please copy me on the pictures also. Whats odd is the caps were bulging. You replaced them and now things are smoking. Might one have been put in backwards? Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Adrian Constantinescu adrian.valentin.constantine...@gmail.com wrote: Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@... writes: or send it off list if you can not compress it. Bert Thank you for your quick reply, i will take some pictures in the morning and post them. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU)
Ian Have not downloaded the info yet. But I was surprised by the fact you were using LORAN sooo you must be in Europe. Lucky you to have such a fine signal. Great job on the tic. Now to go download the bits. Thanks again. Regards Paul. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Hi Iain, Thanks very much for posting, and for sharing the code. I know many of us are interested in how well modern CPU's or SBC's can be used as time interval, time stamping, and frequency counting instruments. I know the BB PRU's have been mentioned before on the list but it's really nice to see actual code and test results. About the hp 5370 -- realize that these are still 1000x more precise (on the order of tens of ps) than what a BB/PRU is capable of (on the order of tens of ns). But as you observe, they key point is -- for mid- to long-term measurement of free-running time/frequency standards you do not necessarily need ps-level measurement capability. Nanosecond, or even microsecond time resolution is more than enough to create comprehensive plots of time and frequency drift over the long-term. Again, thanks. /tvb - Original Message - From: Iain Young i...@g7iii.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU) Hi Folks, As much as we all love our HP 5370B's, they are a tad expensive if you want to monitor several PPS sources long term to ensure they are all closely syncronised. In my case, I have three Austron 2100 LORAN receivers and a HP Z3816A GPS receiver. I wanted to be able to compare each of their PPS outputs with the PPS output of the Z3816A, as well as each other. Clearly, multiple 5370's would have been too expensive, not just for initial outlay, but also ongoing electrical costs would not be helped! However, the Beaglebone (Both White and Black variants) have two PRUs. These are real-time units, with clocks that run at 200 MHz, and most instructions complete in 1 clock cycle (5ns) So, I decided to write a TIC in the PRU Assembler to scratch my particular itch. The current code waits for the A clock to go high, and then counts until B goes high, resets it's counters, and waits for A to go high again. It also keeps track of a sequence number for sanity's sake, and onward processing. Since the Beaglebone's have two PRUs, I have written the code to run on both at the same time, and use different GPIO pins, so you can compare up two sets of two clocks, or two clocks with a common reference. Pins are documented in README.txt Now, it's resolution is 20ns. However, it gets confused if the two pulses are less than around 10-11uS apart. I -think- this is when it sends the data back to the host processor via shared RAM. In my case, this is not an issue, as I can just slew the PPS from the Austron's (or even use the Fixed PPS), but if you wanted to compare two GPS receivers, then that would be an issue. I'll have to look if there's a better way to do the shared memory stuff (interrupts, signaling etc), or store multiple intervals and send them all at once, although the current code seems pretty tight. I'd like to have tried it with 1MHz, 5MHz, and even 10 MHz clocks, as 20nS resolution will handle that, but I think I need to fix the 11uS separation issue first. Then again, it was written to compare PPS's from different Austron 2100's and GPS. It also took less than 24 hours from concept to running :) If anyone wants it, the code is here here: http://hal.g7iii.net/bb_tic/ You will need the pasm compiler, and probably the am335x PRU package, although there are (tiny) binaries there as well Setup, Compile, and Running instructions are included in README.txt Oh, Sample output: PRU0: Seq No:848 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:849 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:850 Interval:11700 ns or 0.11700 seconds PRU0: Seq No:851 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:852 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:853 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:854 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:855 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:856 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:857 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:858 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:859 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:860 Interval:11660 ns or 0.11660 seconds PRU0: Seq No:861 Interval:11660 ns or 0.11660 seconds You can plainly see the Austron has a jitter of around +/-20 ns from the GPS PPS (figures confirmed with the 5370). Slew was around 11.5us. I must wire up the other two Austron's but will need
Re: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU)
Ian what files are needed? Forgive me if its in the read me. Thanks On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 2:56 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Ian Have not downloaded the info yet. But I was surprised by the fact you were using LORAN sooo you must be in Europe. Lucky you to have such a fine signal. Great job on the tic. Now to go download the bits. Thanks again. Regards Paul. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Hi Iain, Thanks very much for posting, and for sharing the code. I know many of us are interested in how well modern CPU's or SBC's can be used as time interval, time stamping, and frequency counting instruments. I know the BB PRU's have been mentioned before on the list but it's really nice to see actual code and test results. About the hp 5370 -- realize that these are still 1000x more precise (on the order of tens of ps) than what a BB/PRU is capable of (on the order of tens of ns). But as you observe, they key point is -- for mid- to long-term measurement of free-running time/frequency standards you do not necessarily need ps-level measurement capability. Nanosecond, or even microsecond time resolution is more than enough to create comprehensive plots of time and frequency drift over the long-term. Again, thanks. /tvb - Original Message - From: Iain Young i...@g7iii.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU) Hi Folks, As much as we all love our HP 5370B's, they are a tad expensive if you want to monitor several PPS sources long term to ensure they are all closely syncronised. In my case, I have three Austron 2100 LORAN receivers and a HP Z3816A GPS receiver. I wanted to be able to compare each of their PPS outputs with the PPS output of the Z3816A, as well as each other. Clearly, multiple 5370's would have been too expensive, not just for initial outlay, but also ongoing electrical costs would not be helped! However, the Beaglebone (Both White and Black variants) have two PRUs. These are real-time units, with clocks that run at 200 MHz, and most instructions complete in 1 clock cycle (5ns) So, I decided to write a TIC in the PRU Assembler to scratch my particular itch. The current code waits for the A clock to go high, and then counts until B goes high, resets it's counters, and waits for A to go high again. It also keeps track of a sequence number for sanity's sake, and onward processing. Since the Beaglebone's have two PRUs, I have written the code to run on both at the same time, and use different GPIO pins, so you can compare up two sets of two clocks, or two clocks with a common reference. Pins are documented in README.txt Now, it's resolution is 20ns. However, it gets confused if the two pulses are less than around 10-11uS apart. I -think- this is when it sends the data back to the host processor via shared RAM. In my case, this is not an issue, as I can just slew the PPS from the Austron's (or even use the Fixed PPS), but if you wanted to compare two GPS receivers, then that would be an issue. I'll have to look if there's a better way to do the shared memory stuff (interrupts, signaling etc), or store multiple intervals and send them all at once, although the current code seems pretty tight. I'd like to have tried it with 1MHz, 5MHz, and even 10 MHz clocks, as 20nS resolution will handle that, but I think I need to fix the 11uS separation issue first. Then again, it was written to compare PPS's from different Austron 2100's and GPS. It also took less than 24 hours from concept to running :) If anyone wants it, the code is here here: http://hal.g7iii.net/bb_tic/ You will need the pasm compiler, and probably the am335x PRU package, although there are (tiny) binaries there as well Setup, Compile, and Running instructions are included in README.txt Oh, Sample output: PRU0: Seq No:848 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:849 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:850 Interval:11700 ns or 0.11700 seconds PRU0: Seq No:851 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:852 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:853 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:854 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:855 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:856 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:857 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:858 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:859 Interval:11680 ns or 0.11680 seconds PRU0: Seq No:860 Interval:11660 ns or 0.11660 seconds PRU0: Seq No:861 Interval:11660 ns or 0.11660 seconds You can plainly see the Austron has a jitter of around
Re: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU)
Ian Thank you On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Iain Young i...@g7iii.net wrote: Hey Paul, Grab the tarball, it contains each of the other files in that directory. And yes, the README tells you what you need to do. Note you will need the PRUSS compiler end probably the AM335x PRU Package to compile. Google for it, or grab this one via git: https://github.com/rjw245/am335x_pru_package/ [Not mine, but used the inputtest example as a base]. Dump the files in the inputtest directory (or create a new one at the same level), then do the pasm and make stuff. To get started quickly, tic_ab_dualpru, tic_ab_pru0.bin, and tic_ab_pru1.bin, and just run tic_ab_dualpru. This will work on a BBW. I am currently playing with it on the BBB, and have discovered I can go to 10ns resolution, but the code needs adjusting (seems the PRUs might be running at a different speed to the BBW, I need to investigate!) I also still have the 10-11uS issue mentioned below, but I am unconvinced I have the pin-mux settings quite right yet (I think they are being passed back through the SOC-fabric, thus slowing things down!) I'll probably post an update over the weekend (not had chance to play all week due to work commitments) Iain On 05/09/14 20:09, paul swed wrote: Ian what files are needed? Forgive me if its in the read me. Thanks On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 2:56 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Ian Have not downloaded the info yet. But I was surprised by the fact you were using LORAN sooo you must be in Europe. Lucky you to have such a fine signal. Great job on the tic. Now to go download the bits. Thanks again. Regards Paul. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 10:26 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Hi Iain, Thanks very much for posting, and for sharing the code. I know many of us are interested in how well modern CPU's or SBC's can be used as time interval, time stamping, and frequency counting instruments. I know the BB PRU's have been mentioned before on the list but it's really nice to see actual code and test results. About the hp 5370 -- realize that these are still 1000x more precise (on the order of tens of ps) than what a BB/PRU is capable of (on the order of tens of ns). But as you observe, they key point is -- for mid- to long-term measurement of free-running time/frequency standards you do not necessarily need ps-level measurement capability. Nanosecond, or even microsecond time resolution is more than enough to create comprehensive plots of time and frequency drift over the long-term. Again, thanks. /tvb - Original Message - From: Iain Young i...@g7iii.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Poor Mans TIC (Using Beaglebone onboard PRU) Hi Folks, As much as we all love our HP 5370B's, they are a tad expensive if you want to monitor several PPS sources long term to ensure they are all closely syncronised. In my case, I have three Austron 2100 LORAN receivers and a HP Z3816A GPS receiver. I wanted to be able to compare each of their PPS outputs with the PPS output of the Z3816A, as well as each other. Clearly, multiple 5370's would have been too expensive, not just for initial outlay, but also ongoing electrical costs would not be helped! However, the Beaglebone (Both White and Black variants) have two PRUs. These are real-time units, with clocks that run at 200 MHz, and most instructions complete in 1 clock cycle (5ns) So, I decided to write a TIC in the PRU Assembler to scratch my particular itch. The current code waits for the A clock to go high, and then counts until B goes high, resets it's counters, and waits for A to go high again. It also keeps track of a sequence number for sanity's sake, and onward processing. Since the Beaglebone's have two PRUs, I have written the code to run on both at the same time, and use different GPIO pins, so you can compare up two sets of two clocks, or two clocks with a common reference. Pins are documented in README.txt Now, it's resolution is 20ns. However, it gets confused if the two pulses are less than around 10-11uS apart. I -think- this is when it sends the data back to the host processor via shared RAM. In my case, this is not an issue, as I can just slew the PPS from the Austron's (or even use the Fixed PPS), but if you wanted to compare two GPS receivers, then that would be an issue. I'll have to look if there's a better way to do the shared memory stuff (interrupts, signaling etc), or store multiple intervals and send them all at once, although the current code seems pretty tight. I'd like to have tried it with 1MHz, 5MHz, and even 10 MHz clocks, as 20nS resolution will handle that, but I think I need to fix the 11uS separation issue first. Then again, it was written to compare PPS's from different Austron 2100's and GPS
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Nice scan Tom. Clean. I most likely will never run across either unit. But always good to read about them. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Hi Chris, Sorry for a delayed reply. The OSA 3210 is one of the only cesium standards I don't have in the museum. I've seen one or two on eBay over the past decade but not in worthwhile condition. I hope you can get yours working. If not, let me know... The good news is that I have an original Oscilloquartz 3200 cesium manual. Today I scanned the first part of it for you. See: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/osa3200/ If this is helpful to your efforts, I'll try to scan the schematics as well. The manual is an inch thick. I don't know the model differences. I've seen 3000, 3020 and 3200, 3210, 3230, 3235 mentioned on the web. Maybe 3120. I'm also not clear about the differences in series-3000 vs. series-3100 vs. series 3200. If anyone knows, please post details. Thanks, /tvb - Original Message - From: Chris syseng.greenfi...@btconnect.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:09 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard Hi, I recently bought an Oscilloquartz 3210 cesium standard and although it does power up, it does not lock. All the parameters on the meter look sensible, other than the 2nd harmonic, #9 parameter, which shows zero. Quart oscillator output looks almost spot on in comparison with the lab Z3816. I have no info on this unit at all, so this may either be a dead tube, or other electronic fault on one of the many pcb's in the system. Ion pump had a small reading on power up, but now dropped back to zero. I am looking for a user guide for this unit, or even better, a manual with theory of operation and setup info. Can anyone help with this, or perhaps suggest a source ?. Year of manufacture estimated 1984/85, from date code on ic's. I notice that the tube is from FTS, the same construction as in the FTS 4060, but different part number and wonder if this was original fitment, or has been replaced at some stage... Regards Thanks Chris Quayle Oxford, England ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Magnus is right if there is any tube life at all and I do mean fumes. (odd spacing all of the sudden) In HP 5060/5061 Frankenstein (A combo of the two systems) I built a new heater controller to drive the few fumes off of the 5060 tube. Amazingly the darn thing works. The i meter barely barely moves. But yet it locks. Good luck. Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: If you have tube-life and not other issues, it's about the same. Also works for rubidiums, as the loop aspect here is essentially the same. There can be *other* issues. For the 5060A for instance, you might need to also adjust the crystal filter of the OCXO, as that too drifts out of range, so you get no signal out. What I write is not a fix-it-all but rather addresses that one issue. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 06:35 PM, Bob Bownes wrote: Is there a similar 'bring it back to life' procedure for the 5061A? On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Chris, Do you have a GPS clock? First turn the operational mode setting from off to second step (ocxo + ion pump) and let it stay there for a day or so. Then, as the oven have stabilized, switch it over to third step, the open loop mode, and tune the OCXO up against a GPS reference so that it is very near 5 MHz. You use the calibration whole on the front of the clock for that. Then, you turn the operation mode switch to the fourth and last step, the closed loop step, and see if it locks up. Let it just sit there and lock up, as it takes some time. It's quite common that OCXOs have drifted outside the capture range of the analogue loop, so loosing lock and not being able to attain it again is a typical response. Cheers, Magnus On 08/28/2014 04:33 PM, Chris wrote: On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Subject: Re: Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
Chris Sorry its not working. Very nice looking unit though. I did the Frankenstein thing on my 5060/5061. So if its bad there is no harm in seriously digging in. After all its just physics. On Frankenstein it took me an honest 6 months and the support of the time-nuts you already have. Learned a ton in the process and the monster lives. I was lucky at the same time I came across a HP pico-amp meter and could read the tube current directly and it was pitiful. Good luck Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, John Miles j...@miles.io wrote: Looks like a really nice piece of hardware, well worth fixing up. You might check the hot-wire ionizer filament on the Cs tube for continuity, as a failure there may not show up in a meter indication. Apart from that, the detailed troubleshooting steps in the contemporary HP Cs service manuals (5061A/5061B generation) would be very much applicable to this one. The block diagram will be similar. You could try measuring the beam current and SNR manually if all else fails; one approach that I used is detailed at http://www.ke5fx.com/cs.htm . -- john, KE5FX Miles Design LLC -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 2:05 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Subject: Re: Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard So what am I missing ?. Did fill in the enquiry form at the Oscilloquartz web site a few days ago, but no reply. Should I try again, or are are there some special runes you need to recite before they will talk to you ? :-). Would be quite happy to pay a reasonable fee for a copy of the manual, paper or pdf... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Oscilloquartz 3210 Cesium Standard
I have the same disease. I have the clock, but the wife thinks that is insane. I don't get her concern at all??? Especially when she says NO!. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:39 AM, bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: Careful Chris, it sounds like you are developing the symptoms of the Vintage strain of the time nuts infection. Next thing you know, you will be looking at tall clocks. Bob, who is debating the wisdom of non invasively synchronizing the family heirloom tall clock to the new cesium clock... On Aug 28, 2014, at 10:33, Chris syseng.greenfi...@btconnect.com wrote: On 08/28/14 05:03, Javier Herrero wrote: Hello, Here is the manual I've. I have also some other documentations, and some Oscilloquartz software for the OSA-5585, but I don't know if they are very useful. Regards, Javier Hi Javier, Thanks for that and for the other replies. The 3210 looks like quite an early design, with no sign of microprocessors at all. There's a 8 slot card cage with a load of discrete analog circuitry, 741 op amps etc and a couple of boards full of 14 / 16 pin ssi cmos / ttl devices, which I guess would be the synthesiser logic and perhaps a state machine style startup sequencer. Apart from that, the rest is power supply related and what looks like an alarm board with optoisolator discete outputs to a 25 way D connector. The step recovery diode (?) multiplier into the microwave cavity is a really neat gold plated assembly with what looks like a 50r termination (setup tap for spectrum analyser ?) and an adjustment trimmer, but am not touching that or the many trimpots on the boards or any adjustments until I have more info. The tube is from FTS, part number / model 7101. It seems strange that the 2nd harmonic, meter #9, is zero, since even with a tube approaching eol, one would expect at least some indication, which is why I think there may be an electronic fault. Perhaps the hv power supply module feeding the electron multiplier. Will try to measure that, but the area around the tube is really heavily rivetted and screwed down in all directions. Looks like a lot of the left hand side of the case will need to be disassembled just to get at the tube connections. It also had the battery backup option, with 4 sets of 3 x cyclon type cells, but with a date code of 1984, are seriously dead and have been removed. This time nuts things seems to be a growing interest and wonder if there is a cure ? :-). Recently bought a 1970's era Tracor 304D rubidium standard. Again, no lock, but a very well engineered and screwed together piece of kit and should be fixable. Collection now includes the Z3816, from Ebay US around 7 years ago, a Z3815 currently being repackaged, an HP103 with open circuit oven heater elements and the 3210... Regards, Chris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Ublox neo-7M GPS
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Tony tn...@toneh.demon.co.uk wrote: I just tried sending various TMODE and TMODE2 configuration messages to the NEO-7M. These allow you to select 'Disabled' 'Survey In' and 'Fixed Mode' where you can specify the receiver's lattitude and longitude. Not surprisingly, it replied with negative acknowledgements each time so they presumably aren't supported in this receiver. Right, those are typically T version only commands. It should be in the documents as a note. The earlier list of timing attributes left out a critical one, being able to set your position to the accuracy of the receiver. While it's probably my poor anttenna siting the various self-surveys (Tbolt, Res-T, LEA-6T) I've done are all pretty poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Ublox neo-7M GPS
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: How far from the equator are you? I believe 43.235262699 N (my median position) is about 4,809,051 meters from the equator. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Ublox neo-7M GPS
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:09 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: Since you're closer to the equator your results should be somewhat better than mine. You could use these numbers to help decide if you've got a problem or not. I was unclear. My point was (since I'm really an absolute time person) is that the site survey option in various timing receivers seems fairly coarse so the ability to set a location seems like the more useful option. The position I gave you is purported to be inside a 10x10 cm box at my antenna center (of course it's not). I use raw data from a 6T and 7P for location fixes. I'm also sure it's a pointless exercise -- I'm just idly curious. -- Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] MSK option for Fluke 207 and Tracor 599
I do not believe that there is. I think it may be due to the timing of msk introduction and the end of life of the products/companies. The tracor demonstrates a clever way to get rid of MSK but requires a 100 Hz IF. So far for me at least its unclear how you would re-use the tracor trick on the 2.5KHz IFs of the 207 and 599. Yes you could down convert 2.5Khz to 100 Hz. Messy and there is additional things that would need to happen to make the radios work. I have both by the way. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:04 PM, oe1lpw oe1...@telekabel.at wrote: Dear Sirs, I`m looking for a MSK option for the Fluke 207 and/or the Tracor 599 receivers. Is there a circuit diagramm? Any help would be very much appreciated. Ludwig oe1lpw --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Did measure NAA near Boston 8000uv using a dipole for 80 meters. Looking at various vlf receivers it looks like a LPF or maybe a BPF filter to a ne602 mixer followed by a tl081opamp LPF makes a direct conversion receiver. Then hit the tracor d-msk-r. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Paul wrote: Nat Semi App Note 72 page 18, par. 6.4 shows the configuration for bandpass active filter. This matches the last LM3900 stage, so you would seem to be correct. The shift in filter frequency for 200bps is because the higher modulation rate results in a greater frequency shift. It's like 50hz instead of the 25hz of the 100bps rate. Robert wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. * * * Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. * * * combining the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As f or the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? The circuit as a whole operates as a frequency doubler using full-wave rectification and filtering. The rx LO is 100Hz below the nominal carrier frequency, so in normal (non-MSK) mode, the IF frequency is 100Hz. Referring to the MSK addendum, a received 200 baud MSK signal is 50Hz below nominal, and a 100 baud MSK signal is 25Hz below nominal. With the LO 100 Hz below nominal, this makes the IF frequency 50Hz when receiving a 200 baud MSK signal, and 75 Hz when receiving a 100 baud MSK signal. After doubling, these become 100 Hz (200 baud) and 150 Hz (100 baud), so the BPF is switchable between 100Hz and 150Hz. They used a FET to chop the 150Hz (100 baud) signal with a 50Hz square wave. I can't say I'm impressed with the design, even for the era. The whole instrument is built mostly with LM3900s, which makes it thousands (maybe even millions) of times noisier than it would be if it had been properly designed with standard op-amps. It may work more or less, but it's a fugly way to get there. There are other questionable choices (like the FET chopper, an overall design that depends on lots of one-shots, etc.). The designers knew about the LM301 (there is one in the unit), so there was really no excuse for using LM3900s. Yeah, the 301 was more expensive -- but this was supposed to be a state-of-the-art measuring device for characterizing good OCXOs down to PPB or below. I simulated the MSK board in LTspice. Let me know (OFFLIST ONLY, please) if you would like the files to play with (662kB ZIP file). (Note that these won't do you any good if you're not an LTspice user.) Again, please do not clutter the list with requests for files -- OFFLIST ONLY, please (check your headers carefully before you hit Send). Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Nat Semi App Note 72 page 18, par. 6.4 shows the configuration for bandpass active filter. This matches the last LM3900 stage, so you would seem to be correct. The shift in filter frequency for 200bps is because the higher modulation rate results in a greater frequency shift. It's like 50hz instead of the 25hz of the 100bps rate. Paul On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:35 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. (Most older op amps are voltage driven.) The LM3900 is powered from 10V, so I think of that as just above the maximimum output voltage. Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. If my analysis is correct (and I worked at National when the LM3900 came out, a friend did apps for this odd new part) then the combining of the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As f or the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? Bob LaJeunesse Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 at 2:56 PM From: Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Cc: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz On 16 Aug 2014 at 13:35, paul swed wrote: Kenneth on the opamps that is correct. But I put little U's to indicate phase. They actually represent the top half of the input cycle. Yes, I saw those, but unless I am mistaken, you didn't add a U after the second opamp, which would have returned the phase to the input's. In the top path it inverts once. I see twice: once through the first op amp and again through the second one. The second one then outputs to the IF. Anyway, to me, it is a very interesting and simple circuit. I LIKE simple. I am a great believer in the KISS principle. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
I may build up the d-msk-r tracor circuit. I seriously speculate it works as follows. Tracor down converts NAA's signal to a 100 Hz IF. The NAA signal is plus and minus 50 Hz msk or FSK Making the mark 50 Hz and space 150 Hz. (Really don't know whats mark or space nor does it matter) The tracor d-msk-r acts as a doubler so 50 Hz becomes 100 Hz only for the mark condition. The space goes to 300 Hz and the last stage bandpass filter only passes the doubled mark signal at 100 Hz the signal that the Tracor can lock to. I believe the 300 Hz simply leaves gaps in the signal. Purest of a guess. When I looked at NAA in spectrum lab it did not appear as a traditional FSK signal. Instead it was a clearly random signal without clearly defined mark and space carriers. Kind of pointing to a OPSK like signal. If the theory is true the d-msk-r only works on an IF of 100 Hz. The reason tracor selected this IF over the others that could have been used. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Paul Davis ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com wrote: Nat Semi App Note 72 page 18, par. 6.4 shows the configuration for bandpass active filter. This matches the last LM3900 stage, so you would seem to be correct. The shift in filter frequency for 200bps is because the higher modulation rate results in a greater frequency shift. It's like 50hz instead of the 25hz of the 100bps rate. Paul On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:35 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. (Most older op amps are voltage driven.) The LM3900 is powered from 10V, so I think of that as just above the maximimum output voltage. Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. If my analysis is correct (and I worked at National when the LM3900 came out, a friend did apps for this odd new part) then the combining of the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As f or the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? Bob LaJeunesse Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 at 2:56 PM From: Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Cc: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz On 16 Aug 2014 at 13:35, paul swed wrote: Kenneth on the opamps that is correct. But I put little U's to indicate phase. They actually represent the top half of the input cycle. Yes, I saw those, but unless I am mistaken, you didn't add a U after the second opamp, which would have returned the phase to the input's. In the top path it inverts once. I see twice: once through the first op amp and again through the second one. The second one then outputs to the IF. Anyway, to me, it is a very interesting and simple circuit. I LIKE simple. I am a great believer in the KISS principle. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] MIT Flea
I did see John scooting along the road. The gates had not opened yet. But did not see him after the gates did open. It was a fairly small crowd Regards Paul WB8TSL/1 On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Richard Solomon w1...@earthlink.net wrote: Speaking of the MIT Flea, I have not read anything from John Forster (sp ?) lately on any of his forums. I hope all is well with him. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 8/16/2014 10:56 PM, bownes wrote: Apologies for to those not in New England or not going to the Flea. I'm heading out to the MIT Flea at oh-freaking-dark in the morning and I know there are often several time nuts who go. If you happen to see a guy wander by in a Horton Emergency Vehicles hat looking very tired, say Hi! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
OK Couple of comments NAA is 24KHz Jim Creek is 24.8 as I recall. Anyhow westies might want Jim Creek in Wa. I can here both on the east coast day or night with nothing spectacular at all. That said I shared the tracor d-msk-r circuit with the group that removes the msk. How does it pull that trick off? I do not get how it gets rid of the msk and leaves the carrier. To Bobs comment. Interesting about the code. But with MSK removed you at least have a CS reference to work with. It ain't wwvb, but for the simplicity of it that would be very positive design for low cost. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi If you are going with an NAA receiver for frequency and time, I would not strip off the modulation. Recover it, time tag it once a second and work out a way to compare sequences between observers. If they are (still) transmitting random looking “stuff” the one second signatures should be reasonably unique. Net result would be getting “everything (time ticks and frequency) from NAA that you would have from WWVB. Coverage area is pretty good. You should be able to get a wide range of people involved. Bob On Aug 17, 2014, at 2:23 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 17 Aug 2014 at 7:52, Burt I. Weiner wrote: Gang, Just for fun I just tried to see if I could hear the signal on 24 kHz using my GPS referenced HP-3586B and a HP-3336A also GPS locked to compare the I.F. frequency using a 1:1 Lissajou pattern. It's 7:30 AM here in Los Angeles. I heard a signal but I doubt that it was NAA. Isn't NAA on 24.6 Khz? I am not certain of the frequency. What time of the day would be best, probably when the entire path is dark? In my experience, here in North Idaho, and when I was in Missoula, MT, athough the signal level rose and fell with diurnal variations in the amount or lack of sunlight, it was ALWAYS there...at least as long as the transmitter was in operation. My antenna is a dipole about 30-feet on a side, which is really all I've got up at the moment. It's orientation favors that part of the country. I hear WWVB at 60 kHz almost all the time with that antenna. WWVB is quite recognizable because of the phase shift signature as seen on my X-Y display. If you are hearing WWVB, you most CERTAINLY will hear NAA...if they are on the air. Into my location here, NAA is at least three times as strong as WWVB. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Robert Yes indeed the lm3900 is a great part. The last opamp is a 100hz BPF. The RCs perform a phase shift and I will tend to believe that at the bandpass filter it is a full wave rectified signal. Only a guess. Here is the part I don't get. How does that remove the msk? Mask is FSK and you can see the shifts in spectrumlab. Rick per your comment yes the doubling of the carrier does remove the BPSK that was the earliest approach studied applied and then rejected as when teh carrier was returned to 60KHz any method used left an ambiguity that in fact could flip randomly due to noise. Not pretty on the strip chart. But back to this its msk. I am missing the secret math or something. Do I believe this will work if I build it. Absolutely and a 24 Khz rcvr ain't all that bad to build. Regards Paul WB8TSL/1 On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. (Most older op amps are voltage driven.) The LM3900 is powered from 10V, so I think of that as just above the maximimum output voltage. Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. If my analysis is correct (and I worked at National when the LM3900 came out, a friend did apps for this odd new part) then the combining of the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As for the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? Bob LaJeunesse Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 at 2:56 PM From: Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Cc: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz On 16 Aug 2014 at 13:35, paul swed wrote: Kenneth on the opamps that is correct. But I put little U's to indicate phase. They actually represent the top half of the input cycle. Yes, I saw those, but unless I am mistaken, you didn't add a U after the second opamp, which would have returned the phase to the input's. In the top path it inverts once. I see twice: once through the first op amp and again through the second one. The second one then outputs to the IF. Anyway, to me, it is a very interesting and simple circuit. I LIKE simple. I am a great believer in the KISS principle. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Actually I built analog dividers and it doesn't fix the issue at all as itsthe relationship from local to the reference. A slip is a slip and the chart recorders track them. But we stray from the question on msk. Regards On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote: if you use analog way to divide the 120kHz that will prevent an incidentally flip of the phase 73 Alex On 8/17/2014 2:21 PM, paul swed wrote: Robert Yes indeed the lm3900 is a great part. The last opamp is a 100hz BPF. The RCs perform a phase shift and I will tend to believe that at the bandpass filter it is a full wave rectified signal. Only a guess. Here is the part I don't get. How does that remove the msk? Mask is FSK and you can see the shifts in spectrumlab. Rick per your comment yes the doubling of the carrier does remove the BPSK that was the earliest approach studied applied and then rejected as when teh carrier was returned to 60KHz any method used left an ambiguity that in fact could flip randomly due to noise. Not pretty on the strip chart. But back to this its msk. I am missing the secret math or something. Do I believe this will work if I build it. Absolutely and a 24 Khz rcvr ain't all that bad to build. Regards Paul WB8TSL/1 On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com wrote: It's simple, but not obvious. The LM3900 is a Norton amplifier, and while it has differential inputs they are current driven. (Most older op amps are voltage driven.) The LM3900 is powered from 10V, so I think of that as just above the maximimum output voltage. Both the upper amplifier and the second lower amplifier have 1M feedback resistors, and + inputs fed 10V by 1M bias resistors. That would bias the output at near the supply rail, turning these stages into something like half-wave rectifiers. Since the first lower stage has a 2M bias resistor it idles at about half supply, and behaves as a simple inverter. If my analysis is correct (and I worked at National when the LM3900 came out, a friend did apps for this odd new part) then the combining of the two outputs produces a negative going full wave rectification of the signal. The fourth LM3900 stage looks like an inverting bandpass filter, but I'd have to dig out some reference books to determine its behavior in more detail. As for the 100-200 switch I'm confused, why would the bandpass frequency be lowered for the higher modulation rate? Bob LaJeunesse Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 at 2:56 PM From: Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Cc: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz On 16 Aug 2014 at 13:35, paul swed wrote: Kenneth on the opamps that is correct. But I put little U's to indicate phase. They actually represent the top half of the input cycle. Yes, I saw those, but unless I am mistaken, you didn't add a U after the second opamp, which would have returned the phase to the input's. In the top path it inverts once. I see twice: once through the first op amp and again through the second one. The second one then outputs to the IF. Anyway, to me, it is a very interesting and simple circuit. I LIKE simple. I am a great believer in the KISS principle. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Alex I have several of these and they worked well. The new BPSK modulation does not allow any of the traditional phase tracking receivers to work. Paul/Ziggy mentioned NAA as an alternate. Granted its not NIST traceable thats not its function. But as it turns out the things I thought made the signals useless are incorrect. Several documents say that sometime around 1986 NAA started using a Cs reference. The MSK appears to be reasonable to get around. Further more information is available about the signals and propagation since many universities and government units use the signals to study VLF propagation. There is a fair amount of detail today. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote: interesting to read: a very low frequency comparator for relating local frequency to u.s. standards http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1964-10.pdf 73 alex On 8/15/2014 4:52 PM, Arthur Dent wrote: Not sure whats up with the link when I click it I get the download. Its a 2.5MB file http://www.glkinst.com/test-equipment/manuals/Tracor900A.pdf. The problem with the above link is the period is included as part of the link when you click on it. It will work without the period. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Ken At least last night NAA was running just fine using a fluke 207 and 4 ft of wire. The antenna is behind a metal rack that shields it in NAAs direction. I did that test out of curiosity. Granted its 2 MW but then again the antenna is at best 50% efficient. Who knows maybe they have sections of the antenna down for maintenance. Regards Paul On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 15 Aug 2014 at 20:57, paul swed wrote: Did check NAA and its banging into Boston. 2 Megawatts to that antenna should show VOLTS at your place. We used that station for many years for VLF propagation research in Missoula, Montana. It banged in 24/7/365. Still does, except when its down for maintenance. So did Jim Creek (of course) and NWC in Australia, and a station whose call I have forgotten in the Canal Zone. Back in 1973. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Bob The fact is its on the web. :-) I was surprised that the documents said that also given most LF Ham systems are very inefficient given what we have to work with in $ and space. But then again its no an amateur installation. With 16 X 825 ft towers and miles of wire over salt flats and water. Matching systems that are like a Frankenstein movie. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi I would be *very* surprised if the NAA antenna was 50% efficient (transmitter RF to radiated power)….. Given that it’s already up and running with good signal levels, that’s not a big deal. Bob On Aug 16, 2014, at 10:24 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Ken At least last night NAA was running just fine using a fluke 207 and 4 ft of wire. The antenna is behind a metal rack that shields it in NAAs direction. I did that test out of curiosity. Granted its 2 MW but then again the antenna is at best 50% efficient. Who knows maybe they have sections of the antenna down for maintenance. Regards Paul On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:22 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 15 Aug 2014 at 20:57, paul swed wrote: Did check NAA and its banging into Boston. 2 Megawatts to that antenna should show VOLTS at your place. We used that station for many years for VLF propagation research in Missoula, Montana. It banged in 24/7/365. Still does, except when its down for maintenance. So did Jim Creek (of course) and NWC in Australia, and a station whose call I have forgotten in the Canal Zone. Back in 1973. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Kenneth on the opamps that is correct. But I put little U's to indicate phase. They actually represent the top half of the input cycle. In the top path it inverts once The bottom path twice. So that makes the top 180 out and the bottom in phase with the original. However the 2 X RC sets the bottom path at I believe 180 degrees from the input. The final RC in the top and bottom path account for opamp filter delay and note they are equal. So thats has me scratching my head as to how this removes the MSK and leaves a carrier that can lock. One of the classic approaches to recover carrier or get rid of BPSK modulation is to simply double the incoming carrier. Works great if you don't loose the signal. But I do not see this circuit doing that. Regards Paul On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 16 Aug 2014 at 11:33, Bob Camp wrote: Hi I would be *very* surprised if the NAA antenna was 50% efficient (transmitter RF to radiated power). According to this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/145116437/THE-BIGGEST-LITTLE-ANTENNA-IN -THE-WORLD-US-Navy-s-VLF-antenna-at-Cutler-Maine The company which designed and built the dual trideco antenna system at Cutler had to guarantee 50% radiation efficiency, and they achieved an antenna radiation efficiency of 74.9% when using the 6 panel trideco. When I read this, I was truly amazed. Although, this site: http://www.navy-radio.com/commsta/cutler.htm does say that with 2 MW input, the ERP is 1 MW, which would indicate at least 50% radiation efficiency. I am still amazed. Given that it´s already up and running with good signal levels, that´s not a big deal. Very true indeed. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Indeed according to the tracor 900 manual you could get to -11th in 24 hours best case. Further comment was NAA is CS as of 1976! The 900 indeed has a semi simple op amp adapter thing that reduces or gets rid of the MSK. Though I have read the description and details it makes no sense as to how it gets rid of the shift. (Quite curious magic) The manuals quite a good read at 52 pages a lot of detail. Further all of the unit could be built again its all simple technology or concepts adapted to more modern methods. The only gotcha as time nuts goes is it ain't NIST. Nor is there time and I don't care about time I simply want an alternate frequency reference. Here at Boston I can hear it in my fillings. :-) I could also hear LORAN C. My type of pipe. By the way Paul/Ziggy was also after me on NAA to consider it. I had discounted it because of the lack of info and totally unclear how to get rid of the FSK. MSK is FSK just with a very narrow shift. Also the effects of the fsk on the carrier. Hmmm glad I am typing this. It may be that the mark or the space is indeed exactly the true carrier and that op amp circuit is notching out the shifted carrier. I will bet thats the trick! Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wa1...@att.net wrote: So does anyone know what frequency stability NAA has as of today? When I fire-up my VLF RX converter they are so loud I'd hate to live near the site. One might be able to hear it with silver fillings in their teeth while eating a lemon! ;- ) -Brian, WA1ZMS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
NAA actually is above and below 24KHz. That said I suspect that the system simply averages the MSK out of the loop by the filter TC of the PLL. There are numbers of propagation papers on NAA. Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:09 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed according to the tracor 900 manual you could get to -11th in 24 hours best case. Further comment was NAA is CS as of 1976! The 900 indeed has a semi simple op amp adapter thing that reduces or gets rid of the MSK. Though I have read the description and details it makes no sense as to how it gets rid of the shift. (Quite curious magic) The manuals quite a good read at 52 pages a lot of detail. Further all of the unit could be built again its all simple technology or concepts adapted to more modern methods. The only gotcha as time nuts goes is it ain't NIST. Nor is there time and I don't care about time I simply want an alternate frequency reference. Here at Boston I can hear it in my fillings. :-) I could also hear LORAN C. My type of pipe. By the way Paul/Ziggy was also after me on NAA to consider it. I had discounted it because of the lack of info and totally unclear how to get rid of the FSK. MSK is FSK just with a very narrow shift. Also the effects of the fsk on the carrier. Hmmm glad I am typing this. It may be that the mark or the space is indeed exactly the true carrier and that op amp circuit is notching out the shifted carrier. I will bet thats the trick! Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wa1...@att.net wrote: So does anyone know what frequency stability NAA has as of today? When I fire-up my VLF RX converter they are so loud I'd hate to live near the site. One might be able to hear it with silver fillings in their teeth while eating a lemon! ;- ) -Brian, WA1ZMS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
www.glkinst.com/test-equipment/manuals/Tracor*900A*.pdf On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: David Yes I have seen various comments and documents describing MSK that way. But have to say the tracor 900 does not use that method to establish a reference. Its a few opamps perhaps one side acting as a phase delay summing with the original and hitting a BPF. all of that running at 100Hz center frequency. Through this magic the 900 could use NAA as a phase tracking reference. Its as if its a classic phase doubler. The documentation almost speaks to that. Its seriously simple. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:31 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:09:23PM -0400, paul swed wrote: I had discounted it because of the lack of info and totally unclear how to get rid of the FSK. MSK is FSK just with a very narrow shift. Also the effects of the fsk on the carrier. Hmmm glad I am typing this. It may be that the mark or the space is indeed exactly the true carrier and that op amp circuit is notching out the shifted carrier. I will bet thats the trick! MSK is a kind of continuous phase differentially coded PSK in which the carrier phase smoothly shifts either EXACTLY plus 90 degrees or EXACTLY minus 90 degrees in EXACTLY one symbol time - in the MSK variety of PSK the transmitted carrier phase never stays the same as the it was the last symbol time. When transmitting steady mark there are a series of these shifts plus 90 degrees (hi frequency mark) one after the other, and when transmitting steady space there is a series of minus 90 degree shifts. Obviously a steady negative phase shift is what is produced by a signal below a center carrier frequency and a steady positive phase shift by one above that frequency. Thus the isomorphism with filtered FSK. Effectively a QPSK (multi-arm Costas type) tracking loop should be able to track a MSK signal just as if it was a filtered QPSK signal with only 90 degree and minus 90 phase shifts each symbol time and generate a phase continuous recovered carrier. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
David Yes I have seen various comments and documents describing MSK that way. But have to say the tracor 900 does not use that method to establish a reference. Its a few opamps perhaps one side acting as a phase delay summing with the original and hitting a BPF. all of that running at 100Hz center frequency. Through this magic the 900 could use NAA as a phase tracking reference. Its as if its a classic phase doubler. The documentation almost speaks to that. Its seriously simple. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:31 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:09:23PM -0400, paul swed wrote: I had discounted it because of the lack of info and totally unclear how to get rid of the FSK. MSK is FSK just with a very narrow shift. Also the effects of the fsk on the carrier. Hmmm glad I am typing this. It may be that the mark or the space is indeed exactly the true carrier and that op amp circuit is notching out the shifted carrier. I will bet thats the trick! MSK is a kind of continuous phase differentially coded PSK in which the carrier phase smoothly shifts either EXACTLY plus 90 degrees or EXACTLY minus 90 degrees in EXACTLY one symbol time - in the MSK variety of PSK the transmitted carrier phase never stays the same as the it was the last symbol time. When transmitting steady mark there are a series of these shifts plus 90 degrees (hi frequency mark) one after the other, and when transmitting steady space there is a series of minus 90 degree shifts. Obviously a steady negative phase shift is what is produced by a signal below a center carrier frequency and a steady positive phase shift by one above that frequency. Thus the isomorphism with filtered FSK. Effectively a QPSK (multi-arm Costas type) tracking loop should be able to track a MSK signal just as if it was a filtered QPSK signal with only 90 degree and minus 90 phase shifts each symbol time and generate a phase continuous recovered carrier. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Yes I can see on page 2 of the pdf thats the trick. Its a non costas loop trick. The action of the MSK card doubles the phase shift. So it is the classic double the frequency stateless carrier recovery. that may drop phase due to noise. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:52 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: www.glkinst.com/test-equipment/manuals/Tracor*900A*.pdf On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: David Yes I have seen various comments and documents describing MSK that way. But have to say the tracor 900 does not use that method to establish a reference. Its a few opamps perhaps one side acting as a phase delay summing with the original and hitting a BPF. all of that running at 100Hz center frequency. Through this magic the 900 could use NAA as a phase tracking reference. Its as if its a classic phase doubler. The documentation almost speaks to that. Its seriously simple. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:31 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:09:23PM -0400, paul swed wrote: I had discounted it because of the lack of info and totally unclear how to get rid of the FSK. MSK is FSK just with a very narrow shift. Also the effects of the fsk on the carrier. Hmmm glad I am typing this. It may be that the mark or the space is indeed exactly the true carrier and that op amp circuit is notching out the shifted carrier. I will bet thats the trick! MSK is a kind of continuous phase differentially coded PSK in which the carrier phase smoothly shifts either EXACTLY plus 90 degrees or EXACTLY minus 90 degrees in EXACTLY one symbol time - in the MSK variety of PSK the transmitted carrier phase never stays the same as the it was the last symbol time. When transmitting steady mark there are a series of these shifts plus 90 degrees (hi frequency mark) one after the other, and when transmitting steady space there is a series of minus 90 degree shifts. Obviously a steady negative phase shift is what is produced by a signal below a center carrier frequency and a steady positive phase shift by one above that frequency. Thus the isomorphism with filtered FSK. Effectively a QPSK (multi-arm Costas type) tracking loop should be able to track a MSK signal just as if it was a filtered QPSK signal with only 90 degree and minus 90 phase shifts each symbol time and generate a phase continuous recovered carrier. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Not sure whats up with the link when I click it I get the download. Its a 2.5MB file http://www.glkinst.com/test-equipment/manuals/Tracor900A.pdf. Try his main page http://www.glkinst.com I did see the info there also. Browsers we luv'em. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:20 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 04:56:01PM -0400, paul swed wrote: Yes I can see on page 2 of the pdf thats the trick. Its a non costas loop trick. That PDF is returning a 404 for me at the moment... -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Whats interesting is I had never heard of the 900 till I started looking at NAA and msk. Regards Paul. On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:43 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:39:07PM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: URL ok from here The text of the original post had *s in the URL... which didn't work so well... Partly pilot error here... Works OK without the *s -pete -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Oh Ebay has one for sale for the person that just needs one. Todays buy now $1693 plus shipping. There you go a deal a day. I think not. regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:48 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Whats interesting is I had never heard of the 900 till I started looking at NAA and msk. Regards Paul. On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:43 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:39:07PM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: URL ok from here The text of the original post had *s in the URL... which didn't work so well... Partly pilot error here... Works OK without the *s -pete -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
so much for copy and paste. Thanks On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure whats up with the link when I click it I get the download. Its a 2.5MB file http://www.glkinst.com/test-equipment/manuals/Tracor900A.pdf. The problem with the above link is the period is included as part of the link when you click on it. It will work without the period. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
Did check NAA and its banging into Boston. Had to put 40 db anttenuator inline to make it reasonable. Using the wwvb antenna. Most likely would do just fine with 6 ft of wire. Ok only had 4 ft of wire and its there. Could really use 10-12ft. :-) So maybe my fillings won't pick it up. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Oh Ebay has one for sale for the person that just needs one. Todays buy now $1693 plus shipping. There you go a deal a day. I think not. regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:48 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Whats interesting is I had never heard of the 900 till I started looking at NAA and msk. Regards Paul. On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:43 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 03:39:07PM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: URL ok from here The text of the original post had *s in the URL... which didn't work so well... Partly pilot error here... Works OK without the *s -pete -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP5370 extender cards?
Let me know when things settle. Most likely will want a set. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote: It usually takes 2-3 weeks to get boards back once sent to the fab (in China). Supposedly the boards that I am having them do for another project should be here today and I can verify their quality. I also laid out a 20 pin extender to connect the input board to the front panel, but I don't think those would be too useful. You can extend the other side of the input board/front panel using a 36 pin extender. A while back I had the idea of doing a replacement board for the custom HP input comparator chips that fry is you overload the 5370 inputs. Need to start looking at what that would take... there are two different versions of that chip/input board. The replacement could be for just the chip or the complete input board. -- Approx how long should they be ready to ship after you decide to proceed with the order? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
OK now I am on a real keyboard. the ole iphones a bit small. I was indeed aware that the subs use msk 20-50hz as I have measured in the past. But avoided the details on the small keyboard. I have also used several of the military radios when I was in the Navy. Far to many years ago. NAA thats maybe 100 miles a way can be easily detected with a diode and tuned circuit. All that said I have absolutely no real detail on the quality and stability of the signal. Subs do need a stable signal. But I know really nothing. I know Paul has suggested that just maybe the signal would be useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 10 Aug 2014 at 19:00, Jim Lux wrote: It can also be FSK.. but it's essentially the narrowest band simple modulation that is constant envelope. As I said, back in the 1970s, the Navy installed special equipment to enable phase-stable output. Dunno the exact details, but that was what I was told back then...by the Navy. Still dunno if my Tacor 599s will even listen to VLF stations now, but I intend to try them. VLF has always interested me... I have several operable VLF receivers: RAK, RBL, SRR-11, AN/URM-6, NM-40A, R-389, etc. RAK is interesting in that although a TRF, it still exhibits single-signal CW reception: the other side of zero-beat simply doesn't exist. I was amazed... Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cutler NAA on 24.0kHz....
According to a document I just found (http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/1743.pdf) it would seem that the naval transmitters are at least .05 10e-9. I don't imagine they have gotten worse since that was published (1967!). So maybe not quite as good as WWVB (which was then spec'ed at .02 10e-9) but probably still useful. But no time code of course. The least common multiple of the two is also 120 khz. Food for thought. Paul On Aug 12, 2014, at 10:25 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wa1...@att.net wrote: So does anyone know what frequency stability NAA has as of today? When I fire-up my VLF RX converter they are so loud I'd hate to live near the site. One might be able to hear it with silver fillings in their teeth while eating a lemon! ;- ) -Brian, WA1ZMS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
On iPhone Yes but those stations are fsk so the offsets an issue We may assume the transmitter is accurate But how accurate? Then the fsk generator On Saturday, August 9, 2014, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: On 9 Aug 2014 at 19:17, paul swed wrote: Ken All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb modulation. Hello, Paul. Yes. I knew that WWVB had switched to BPSK, but these receivers were specifically designed to tune to any of the VLF stations between 3 and 99.95 KHz. They used NAA, NPG, and GBR as examples. Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then the old wwvb receivers. Well, I wasn't thinking so much of accuracy as simply watching the servos hunt. ;-) I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to long will allow it to track again. Supposedly, it would track any of the VLF stations which transmitted phase-stable signals, even those which used FSK or its equivalent. As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL Well, I have done just that. I found two references to those: one was from a Canadian university project which was trying to use Phase-Tracking receivers to track the position of an ice-island. They were trying to use both an RMS Engineering 1312, and two Tracor 599s. Due to errors in their attempts to use the equipment with which they weren't familiar, they didn't have much luck. The other reference was to an exchange on this very forum back in 2010...I think. Someone said they had been using a 1312 for 20 years. Anyway, thanks for the help. Much appreciated. Ken W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB for Time Nuts
Speaking of LORAN C the tests have been dead for about 6 months near as I can tell. Not sure what happened. On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Brooke wrote: I don't understand how Xtendwave can get patents when their work was partially funded by NIST? Just one of the features of the new world of public-private partnerships, which have been spurred on by government funding cutbacks. There is lots to say about the wisdom of such arrangements, but the subject is much more political than technical so further discussion is probably well beyond the scope of the list. Note that we see it also in the proposal to resurrect an improved LORAN system. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB for Time Nuts
Bob Indeed I have no plans to sell anything. If I can ever get a digital solution working for wwvb. What I can say is whatever I do will be shared here. For good or bad. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Keep in mind that the patent(s) do not keep you from building a part for your own use. Regardless of what they do / do not patent, a TimeNut can still build (and use for themselves) what ever they wish. Now, if you (after careful examination) believe that the privately held patents keep you from building a receiver for a Federally Funded service - talk to your elected representatives. They are the ones who can / will fire up a committee to look into this sort of stuff. I think I would want to have some information on license costs before I made that phone call though. Bob On Aug 9, 2014, at 1:49 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi: I've been reading papers by Yingsi Liang who works for Xtendwave and she seems to be the key person developing the new clocks. I've starting collecting info on my web page: http://www.prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#PhaseMod I don't understand how Xtendwave can get patents when their work was partially funded by NIST? There are different modes that have different frame times, the Long mode takes 17 minutes for each of: Time, DST/LY state Date. That's to say it takes 51 minutes to get all three. Since the modulation format is in complete words their receiver has a problem with the inaccuracy of common watch crystals. This says that for those who have a stable LO it's much easier to receive the BPSK signal over the times needed (probably for all formats). PS a new paper Receiver Design of Radio-Controlled Clocks Based On The New WWVB Broadcast Format came out a few days ago. PPS I've been having fun with theodolites and have made a table Accuracy of Visual Fixes on my Navigation page with columns headed Time, Angle Distance based on the Earth rotation at: http://www.prc68.com/I/Nav.shtml#Accuracy The idea is that a theodolite with some angular accuracy needs to be used with a clock that has a equivalent accuracy to get a position fix within some distance. [OT] PPPS I'm also having fun looking at the pond water in my back yard. http://www.prc68.com/I/Labophot.html#Pond_Water -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Ken All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb modulation. Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then the old wwvb receivers. I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to long will allow it to track again. As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to me in an estate some time ago. Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the last two. I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but the manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. So my questions: 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model 1312? 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with their specifications. I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no longer have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. Thanks, Ken Gordon W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VLF Phase-tracking receivers.
Some can. But the big mega power ones here run FSK or in reality MSK about 25-50Hz from what I can tell. The other comment I have is that there no published data on the stability or reference. I could speculate its good but have no idea actually. Would have to build a receiver to figure it out. Regards Paul. On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Paul: Are the phase tracking receivers able to receive any VLF stations (like used by the military)? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html paul swed wrote: Ken All of the phase tracking receivers no longer work due to the new bpsk wwvb modulation. Certainly if you need accuracy any of the GPSDOs out there are better then the old wwvb receivers. I have a 599 and will hope that the project I have been working on for far to long will allow it to track again. As to the 1310s etc. Never heard of them. Something to search for on the internet. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon kgordon2...@frontier.com wrote: Hello, I'm new here, but would like to get some advice, if possible. I have been going through my inventory here of items which were given to me in an estate some time ago. Amongst many other things, I find three Tracor or Textran 599 receivers. One 599-CS with its manual, a 599 (no suffix) and one labeled R-1086/URR, which is very obviously another 599. I have no manual for either of the last two. I also have an RMS Engineering of Atlanta, GA Model 1312 receiver, but the manuals (2) I have are for an RMS Engineering model 1310/1311. So my questions: 1) Are the Tracor/Textran 599s worth anything other than parts? and 2) Is there a manual available somewhere for the RMS Engineering Model 1312? 3) Is the 1312 worth anything to anyone these days? From the manuals I have on the 599 models, I am quite impressed with their specifications. I would think about using one or the other of them except that I no longer have an extremely accurate 100 KHz signal source. Thanks, Ken Gordon W7EKB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fluke 207-5 receiver available
Yes indeed it sort of has a use. WWVB. Not much else down there. Even now that doesn't work. Granted you will here wwvb and you can poke around. But its a nice door stop. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 2:55 AM, Bill Pileggi wpile...@netzero.net wrote: Picked up subject receiver at a ham club auction in July. I thought it 'might' be useful as a generic VLF receiver, but perhaps not? Perhaps one of you will give it a better home? If not, does anyone have schematics? I'd certainly like to look at the diagrams. Thank you. KA3AIS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK patent status
Mike not sure what the above means. As to the FPGA I suspect that may be a good approach i am messing with various micros and languages and they all sort of run out of steam especially when you need to be able to use numbers of instructions to make a DPLL. I did build a hardware counter that I could speed up slowdown or leave the same so that I could essentially build a phase accumulator. But not sure what patents are going to cause a problem. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mike Harpe m...@mikeharpe.com wrote: From my reading of the archives and research it appears that the design for a BPSK WWVB receiver probably has a patent conflict. Isn't this a rehash of the old Heathkit patent on radio clocks that held back their adoption for years? I have begun work on a BPSK receiver for WWVB using an FPGA. Someone should look into why the NIST did this at all since the receiver design got a patent slapped on it right away. Mike Harpe, N4PLE Sellersburg, IN ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK patent status
How about these Xtendwave patents for a start: 8270465 - Timing and Time Information Extraction from a Phase Modulated Signal in a Radio Controlled Clock Receiver 8605778 - Adaptive radio controlled clock employing different modes of operation for different applications and scenarios 8774317 - System and Method for Phase Modulation Over a Pulse Width Modulated/Amplitude Modulated Signal for Use in a Radio Controlled Clock Receiver Application number: 20130121399 - Timing and Time Information Extraction in a Radio Controlled Clock Receiver And patent 8300687 of the same name but issued Oct 2012? Or did you mean Heath Co.? The only thing relevant there is 4582434 - Time corrected, continuously updated clock but that is for WWV/WWVH not WWVB. And it was granted in 1986, so no longer in effect anyway. Paul On Aug 8, 2014, at 6:24 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Mike: Do you have any patent numbers. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How are iPhones' clocks set under LTE?
On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 3:24 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Seems to work correctly here - my local stratum 1 server is displayed if it's reachable (i.e. I'm on my local network). In the US it tries [0-3].us.pool and my local address. It chooses the best three of those and then it chooses one. The list also shows (in pool.ntp.org) [0-3], europe, north-america. asia. oceania, south-america and time.apple.com in that order. Is it the same in the UK? In March 2013 (it seems longer ago): ET asynchronously sends an NTP request to each of 4 or 5 hosts. It then requests additional samples from each host until it gets enough good samples from at least one host. It then picks the host whose times were most consistent (the lowest sigma value in the stats display). Since all this is happening asynchronously we may stop before getting a full complement of responses from each host. And it may not be the host with the lowest RTT. ET was our first app that uses NTP. We have since switched to a different algorithm for picking which server to use in our other apps. But so far the new algorithm hasn't been incorporated into ET. William Arnett Emerald Sequoia LLC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit
I knew about the GPIB but since I don't use it 99% of the time its not a challenge especially since the only reason I extend a module is to fix it. I did not know that there were 3 bay modules. Learn something every day. But don't own one. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:37 AM, David C. Partridge david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk wrote: No, you also need a GPIB extender cable for FULL function ... Regards, David Partridge -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of R.Phillips Sent: 04 August 2014 17:11 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit Am I right in thinking that two of these connector/cables would give the full facilities on the 5000 series units. Roy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Effects of noise on EFC line?
OK my 2 cents and others will have better comments. You can use a far larger inductor in the efc line to try to reduce the noise. EFCs tend to be integrated by some cap. So they are slow moving compared to the noise. Better design is separate analog and digital supplies. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: I've run into a noise problem on the EFC line of my GPSDO engine at the frequency of the oscillator. I've traced the source down to the 74HCT365 I'm using to output the 1(or 5)MHz and 10MHz signals. When I pull it, the EFC quietens down a lot. I'm seeing about 50mv of 10MHz noise at the output of the op-amp that feeds the EFC voltage divider at the OCXO. The voltage divider is corrected by the VRef from the OCXO with a simple circuit using temp-co'ed resistors. On the 0.1uf cap at the OCXO's EFC pin, I'm seeing about 5mv of 10MHz signal. I've considered switching the HCT out for a 74LS365, assuming my drive levels are compatible. Unfortunately, I don't have one in stock, and I'm way out of my pay grade, as they say. I've also thought about putting a 100uh inductor in series with the EFC line. I wonder if I'll have to isolate the 74xx365 chip's VCC through an inductor? Any thoughts? I'm also wondering what the impact of this level of on-frequency noise will be? Is the impact somewhat mitigated, since it's at oscillator frequency? I don't have anything better than an HP 8558B to look at the output of the board. I'm not quite ready to generally share my schematic with the list, but I can make individual exceptions. Bob - AE6RV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How are iPhones' clocks set under LTE?
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Brian Garrett garrettbrian1...@gmail.com wrote: However,they will not alter the phone's internal clock. Yes, Apple does not present an (unpriviledged) iOS API to set the clock. Neither does (current, unpriviledge) Android. That's probably a good thing. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How are iPhones' clocks set under LTE?
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote: Bill, I just got Emerald Time for my iPad - quite a great app, considering I need accurate time for things. Is there a website for the app developer? http://www.emeraldsequoia.com/ On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote: I put my own ntp server in there and was frequently disappinted This is an acknowledged design flaw on their part. It will only choose a user provided clock if the default pool is unavailable (short or long term). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit
You are right thats why I am thinking about 2. On the ribbon cable discussion I do agree ribbon cable can be fragile unless solidly tied down then they are pretty stable. An approach I have used in building extenders for RS sig gens that use Euro boards is the same stranded wire type for all pins. Granted all the same color but you can get pre-cut lengths and the wires much heavier gauge as you would want in an extender. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:11 PM, R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com wrote: Am I right in thinking that two of these connector/cables would give the full facilities on the 5000 series units. Roy -Original Message- From: Dave Daniel Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 4:02 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit Several people on the TekScopes/Tekscopes2 forums went through this a while back. It turned out that ribbon cable appropriate for this application was either not available or too expensive. John Griessen made a set of PWBs and sold kits consisting of a PWB pair, a connector pair and a set of pre-cut and pre-stripped wires. I believe he sold all the kits. I built one of mine and it works well. I use it with a TM-501 as a stand-alone test setup for single-wide plug-ins. DaveD On 8/3/2014 11:54 PM, Mark Sims wrote: I think a cable made from ribbon cable edge connectors would be the easiest/cheapest way to extend the GPIB connector. Have you thought about making extensions for the smaller connector used to distribute GPIB in the 5000 series? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable ki
Yes indeed this is very interesting. I have a number of TM500 modules that need TLC every now and then. I may also want two. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Robert LaJeunesse lajeune...@mail.com wrote: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How are iPhones' clocks set under LTE?
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Brian Garrett garrettbrian1...@gmail.com wrote: Has this been discussed on the list before? I think so, but google iOS NTP which apparently is what's used to periodically set the clock (at large intervals) but not to discipline it. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT Gel Cell question
I think we crossed some wires here. Pun intended. Brook said the fumes ate away the traces and he is right. On a flooded cell batteries such as he describes the fumes are nasty. Its quite normal on a flooded cell to purposely drive them into overcharge. This is known as equalizing. I have to do that on my 2000 Lbs battery from time to time. On Gel Cells that is a very bad process and you don't do it because they will vent. My only wisdom is this. Stay away from hamfest/flea market batteries. They are almost always bad and nothing really revives them. Pay the money and make sure you get a recent build date. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote: as long as it is not a gals/ceramic seal, there is no way to stop sulfuric acid to get out from the cell, just imagine the dilatation diffrence between plastic and metal... 73 Alex On 7/28/2014 10:12 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: As I understand it, the only time that any sealed lead acid battery will vent is in the case of gross overcharging. The battery is designed so that normal charge rates and correct float voltage will result in recombination of any hydrogen and oxygen produced. Was there a fault in the charging circuit or perhaps, the charging circuit didn't have proper temperature compensation of the charge voltage? Ed On 7/28/2014 10:56 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Using lead acid batteries and a precision frequency standard is not a good thing if they are too close together. A number of decades ago (before the Time Nuts or the internet) I was able to purchase a rack mount Gibbs 5 MHz double oven frequency standard that used a very nice Bliley glass tube crystal because it was not as precise as is was supposed to be. It used GelCell backup batteries that were physically in the same rack chassis as the oven. The fumes from the batteries when charging etched some traces off the PCB inside the oven defeating the temperature control but leaving the oscillator. It took a long time to reverse engineer and repair it. I've added a photo of the cord wood construction of the cylindrical oscillator. The core of the cylinder holds the glass bottle crystal and the glass piston coarse tuning capacitor, surrounded by the first heater, circuitry for the oscillator and dual temperature control circuits on ring shaped boards. These fit inside a cylindrical cavity which is the outer oven. I've added a photo of the inner assembly at: http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html Have Fun, Brooke Clarke ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT Gel Cell question
Clearly under an abused situation I have seen cracked/fractured gel cells as an example. Due to I speculate pretty much the poorest of charge design. This includes powdery stuff, corrosion and metal that has been etched from what at sometime was a liquid. Almost the first thing I check is the batteries on test gear I manage to pickup. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: That said, I have never seen a gel cell, or a glass mat lead acid battery leak acid, or emit fumes. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that in all of my battery work, I haven't seen it... [unlike with nicads, where I think something is wrong when I don't see leakage.] The seal is something they take very seriously, and is typically some form of elasomeric plastic/rubber. Even the seal between the plastic case and the faston tabs is flexible. If the battery has a cell that is seriously overcharging, due to a short in another cell, it will out gas hydrogen and oxygen due to the electrolytic breakdown of the water in the electrolyte. Probably better that it do that than to blow up. -Chuck Harris Alexander Pummer wrote: as long as it is not a gals/ceramic seal, there is no way to stop sulfuric acid to get out from the cell, just imagine the dilatation diffrence between plastic and metal... 73 Alex On 7/28/2014 10:12 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: As I understand it, the only time that any sealed lead acid battery will vent is in the case of gross overcharging. The battery is designed so that normal charge rates and correct float voltage will result in recombination of any hydrogen and oxygen produced. Was there a fault in the charging circuit or perhaps, the charging circuit didn't have proper temperature compensation of the charge voltage? Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT Gel Cell question
Elio Oh man I have seen the amp hour magic also. Thought maybe I was just getting older batteries. We have major home chains in the US that batteries sit around for quite some time as measured by the dust on them. So I was thinking that was the case. Regards Paul. On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Elio Corbolante elio...@gmail.com wrote: In my previous work I was developing UPSs: I can confirm that in the last years the quality of the typical gel batteries has declined. What once was 7Ah batteries now are sold as 9Ah ones! And 5-6Ah ones are sold as 7Ah... :( One of the best way to identify the quality of sealed batteries is to weigh them: the heaviest have the highest capacity (and in general are also the best because the producer didn't spare on materials). _ Elio Corbolante. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synergy-GPS SSR-6tru Problem Resolved
Wow there is a tidbit I did not know Ulrich owns Synergy. I knew he was part of Rohde Schwartz and I firmly believe that I actually spoke with him on 2 meters when I lived in CT on the way to work one day. A 2 meter opening. OK the total beg right now. Schematics for the FLL board (Not a typo) of the SMIQ rf generator. OK that was very on time-nuts. I apologize to the group. However it is impressive that they did give you the support. Much as others had in the past. Regards Paul WB8TSL/1 On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote: Synergy's owner Ulrich Rohde N1UL --DJ2LR/DL1R is a long time ham radio operator, and he will go pretty far to help for an other ham, 73 KJ6UHN ex DL... Alex On 7/25/2014 5:27 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: And while this subject is still up, I want to let the group know that Synergy *really* went out of their way to help me with this. I was a bit surprised at their level of commitment to some ham radio operator who had bought a single unit from them and probably didn't know what the heck he was talking about. A real class act all around! Bob - AE6RV From: Art Sepin a...@synergy-gps.com To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Cc: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com; Dusty Morris doxielove...@cox.net Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Synergy-GPS SSR-6tru Problem Resolved Bob, Once in a while a mea culpa is required and we're posting it here so everyone understands our commitment to the users of Synergy's products. The Original Synergy Adaptor Board was designed to allow Motorola's newer 3 volt 12 channel M12+ to plug into an older 5 volt 8 channel UT+ slot. That product worked for hundreds of users over the years until (we found out through your personal aggravation and agony) the recent introduction of Synergy's SSR series of u-Blox based precision timing boards. To make sure that the Synergy UT+ Adaptor Board issue is put to bed properly we asked for an external, formal technical review of this product that was introduced fourteen years ago. The reviewing engineer's first comments were Ouch! This will not work. And, no, the SSR boards do not work the same as the M12 boards on the Synergy Adaptor Board. The M12+ and M12M receivers have separate serial ports for the two functions (Receiver command RxD and DGPS RxD input) so it does not matter what you do with the RTCM port, pin 5 on UT+ connector and pin 8 on the M12+/M12M connector, if not in use with an M12x receiver. The SSR boards, however, had to combine the two serial data streams expected by the M12x navigation receivers into one because the u-Blox receiver modules only use one serial input port for both receiver commands and DGPS correction data. The Synergy Adaptor Boards use a simple gate combiner circuit that worked well when using the M12+ or M12M but left Synergy open to this problem when using an SSR. Both serial lines on the SSR board, pins 2 (Receiver RxD) and 8 (DGPS RxD) are pulled high on the SSR board so open pins are OK but they must not be grounded. The solution is for Synergy to make a UT+ Adaptor Board part number available to users who only want to test the features of SSR timing receivers. That new SSR only Adaptor Board part number, which we'll have available in a few days, will remove R3 (4.7K) and R4 (6.8K) from the adapter board and the compatibility issue will be resolved. In the interim, other users can pull pin 5 of the UT+ connector high (+5V) as you did. We apologize for the confusion and frustration, Bob, and thank you for the valuable feedback! Art Sepin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Starting point for a WWVB project?
Geo if it uses that chip the thing should work even with the new format. You may want to place the antenna in a good position and give it a shot. You might like it. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:10 PM, George Dubovsky n4ua...@gmail.com wrote: While looking for something else in the basement, I found this Ultralink 301/333 WWVB receiver: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116677848251094111716/albums/6038922880078010001 I think I picked it up because the case looked useful, but I haven't molested it. It does not seem to work and I can find limited documentation on it. The remote pod labeled 301 seems to be the entire receiver. It contains the ferrite-loaded antenna and a Temic U4226 receiver chip. The other box seems to be supporting and interface circuitry. I make no claims for the unit other than it's cute. I have no use for it. If someone wants a pig in a poke, $36 will get it Priority Mailed to you (domestic US only). Thanks. 73, geo - n4ua ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] new clock
Agree with Marks comments. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote: An oscillator can take many weeks to settle in after being powered off / shipped / abused / looked at cross-eyed / etc. It typically takes a Thunderbolt a month or two to settle down after being shipped from China. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Thanks On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Oz-in-DFW li...@ozindfw.net wrote: On 7/19/2014 3:45 PM, paul swed wrote: Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz reference. It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. Paul, everything I seen done in this frequency range has been a small coupling cap in the base/gate of the crystal oscillator - small enough that the reactance was large relative to the base/gate impedance. The resulting injected signal amplitude was ~5-10% of the normal operating amplitude at the base. Lock detection was done with a mixer looking for DC output. Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I just talked myself into an attempt. Regards Paul WB8TSL -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz reference. It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I just talked myself into an attempt. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:18:20 +0200 Francesco Messineo francesco.messi...@gmail.com wrote: what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common base crystal oscillator (see figure in http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding injection locking to such oscillators? Thanks in advance for any hint. Moin, I cannot give you performance data, but i can point you at some papers that deal with injection locking. Probably one of the best known papers is from Robert Adler[1]. It mainly deals with how locking comes to be, what the conditions for locking are and how to calculate those. The other big name in injection locking is Kurokawa Kaneyuki. His first paper [2] deals, as the title suggests, with noise in coupled oscillators vs noise in single oscillators. His second paper [3] deals with injection locking itself, similar to what Adler did, but with a more modern terminology, but also with more math. (There are more papers from him on this topic, but i have not had time to read those) Chang et al. did a nice work on locking of multiple oscillators in [4] and how coupling directions affect them. Razavi did a nice rework of earlier findings on injection locking in [5]. In my opinion, this has one of the easier understandable math in all the papers i've read on injection locking. Also his liberal use of graphs simplify the interpretation of the formulas. Zhang et al. did a quite nice analysis of noise behavoir of coupled oscillators in [6]. But my main reason for mentioning it here is the measurements they made, which might give you an indiciation on where you might end up with your circuit. If you are more on the simulation side, [7] might give you a point to start how to model injection locking in spice (though, i must say that is one paper i stumbled upon and probably not the best in that area). HTH Attila Kinali [1] A Study of Locking Phenomena in Oscillators, by Robert Adler, 1946 reprinted in Proceedings of IEEE October 1973 [2] Noise in Synchronized Oscillators, by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1968 [3] Injection Locking in Microwave Solid-State Oscillators, by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1973 [4] Phase Noise in Coupled Oscillators: Theory and Experiment, by Chang, Cao, Mishra and York, 1997 [5] A Study of Injection Locking and Pulling in Oscillators, by Behzad Razavi, 2004 [6] A Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Noise Behavior of Subharmonically Injection Locked Local Oscillators, by Zhan, Zhou, and Daryoush, 1992 [7] Capturing Oscillator Injection Locking via Nonlinear Phase-Domain Macromodels, by Lai and Roychowdhury, 2004 -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Synergy-GPS SSR-6tru problems
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: I fooled around with PUBX 41, and can't get the board to respond. I had some problems but that's because they sent the wrong configuration (a 16062133G). What's the part number? Assuming it hasn't changed a TRu is 16062152G. I don't have the ability to deal with those .05 spaced pins on the GPS board's connector, or to supply the 3V power. I was able to compress and heat shrink some .1 connectors on a .05 connector although I didn't try it on the SSR-6T. -- Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
I figured there were other modules. Glad to see wallymart has them also. Over payed? The costyco comes in a multi color display with temp and humidity. But then again its the module after all. How big is the loopstick and did you confirm the wiring? Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Paul Davis ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com wrote: Paul - You over paid ;) Neither one is going to break the bank, but I found the Westclox Model 72006 'Atomic LCD Alarm Clock' $10.97 at Walmart. Similar module inside. Paul On Jul 11, 2014, at 12:55 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Intended to add the model number. Cosco only has one type a c89201 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: Do you have a model number or can you send me a picture ? Have to do a Costco run this weekend -pete On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: OK its been a bit hard finding the little wwvb receiver kits the last few years. While in costco for sub $18 Lacrosse sells a multi color LCD clock. Wel you just know what happened next. The clock as a wwvb receiver works great however if you read the reviews there is a issue with the battery backup. It doesn't work. Mine does so who knows and I don't really care. There is a clock module in the unit and it works nicely. See attached pix V = 3V in P2 = control ground=on T = data high=low carrier compatible with the remod as is no inverter needed. G = ground To get inside to recover the module. Remove the glass screen its stuck on. Gently pry off. There are 4 screws one in each corner. You could simply tap the module out and use it or feed the data back into the clock. Lots of options. But my only goal is a source of clock modules for time-nuts that does not require a microscope to solder. By keeping the loopstick you can wrap 10 turns of wire around the end and feed a larger active antenna to it as a tuned stage. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
The real point was just to mention another source - j/k about the price ;) Lots of Wally World around so maybe easier to find than Costco. I embedded a picture which I hope will appear. The loopstick is about 7mm diameter and 6cm long. It is attached to a small circuit board which is marked RC8000 V1. Don't know if there is a CM8000 chip under the black blob, but could well be. Top to bottom as mounted in the clock the connections are labeled on the clock board as: 1 - PON (Power ON - active low) 2 - TCO (Time Code Out - idles low in standby) 3 - gnd 4 - vdd (3V from battery) - probably 3.3v OK. Verified those with 'scope. Slightly different pinout but similar signals. Paul --- On Jul 13, 2014, at 10:41 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I figured there were other modules. Glad to see wallymart has them also. Over payed? The costyco comes in a multi color display with temp and humidity. But then again its the module after all. How big is the loopstick and did you confirm the wiring? Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Paul Davis ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com wrote: Paul - You over paid ;) Neither one is going to break the bank, but I found the Westclox Model 72006 'Atomic LCD Alarm Clock' $10.97 at Walmart. Similar module inside. Paul On Jul 11, 2014, at 12:55 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Intended to add the model number. Cosco only has one type a c89201 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: Do you have a model number or can you send me a picture ? Have to do a Costco run this weekend -pete On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: OK its been a bit hard finding the little wwvb receiver kits the last few years. While in costco for sub $18 Lacrosse sells a multi color LCD clock. Wel you just know what happened next. The clock as a wwvb receiver works great however if you read the reviews there is a issue with the battery backup. It doesn't work. Mine does so who knows and I don't really care. There is a clock module in the unit and it works nicely. See attached pix V = 3V in P2 = control ground=on T = data high=low carrier compatible with the remod as is no inverter needed. G = ground To get inside to recover the module. Remove the glass screen its stuck on. Gently pry off. There are 4 screws one in each corner. You could simply tap the module out and use it or feed the data back into the clock. Lots of options. But my only goal is a source of clock modules for time-nuts that does not require a microscope to solder. By keeping the loopstick you can wrap 10 turns of wire around the end and feed a larger active antenna to it as a tuned stage. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
Since the 87kb picture was completely stripped out of my prior reply, here's a link to a pic: http://www.pumpkinbrook.com/files/Module1.jpg Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
Paul the pix came through and yes another nice module and as you say at wally world and there are lots of those. The only guess is the data out or time code. They come both ways. That is as the remodulator is designed a low carrier -14 db at the tick represents a high logic. There is a spare inverter in the remod and actually 2 so the signal can be inverted if needed. The way to tell polarity is there will be a consistent 1 hz pulse that aligns to wwv's tick. That way you can tell the polarity. Or just try inverting if the signal does not work. I like these modules sure beats the 2 different SMTs I had to solder and at $10 cheap. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Paul Davis ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com wrote: Since the 87kb picture was completely stripped out of my prior reply, here's a link to a pic: http://www.pumpkinbrook.com/files/Module1.jpg Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
Paul - You over paid ;) Neither one is going to break the bank, but I found the Westclox Model 72006 'Atomic LCD Alarm Clock' $10.97 at Walmart. Similar module inside. Paul On Jul 11, 2014, at 12:55 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Intended to add the model number. Cosco only has one type a c89201 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: Do you have a model number or can you send me a picture ? Have to do a Costco run this weekend -pete On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: OK its been a bit hard finding the little wwvb receiver kits the last few years. While in costco for sub $18 Lacrosse sells a multi color LCD clock. Wel you just know what happened next. The clock as a wwvb receiver works great however if you read the reviews there is a issue with the battery backup. It doesn't work. Mine does so who knows and I don't really care. There is a clock module in the unit and it works nicely. See attached pix V = 3V in P2 = control ground=on T = data high=low carrier compatible with the remod as is no inverter needed. G = ground To get inside to recover the module. Remove the glass screen its stuck on. Gently pry off. There are 4 screws one in each corner. You could simply tap the module out and use it or feed the data back into the clock. Lots of options. But my only goal is a source of clock modules for time-nuts that does not require a microscope to solder. By keeping the loopstick you can wrap 10 turns of wire around the end and feed a larger active antenna to it as a tuned stage. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remod instant cheap clock receiver
Intended to add the model number. Cosco only has one type a c89201 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: Do you have a model number or can you send me a picture ? Have to do a Costco run this weekend -pete On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: OK its been a bit hard finding the little wwvb receiver kits the last few years. While in costco for sub $18 Lacrosse sells a multi color LCD clock. Wel you just know what happened next. The clock as a wwvb receiver works great however if you read the reviews there is a issue with the battery backup. It doesn't work. Mine does so who knows and I don't really care. There is a clock module in the unit and it works nicely. See attached pix V = 3V in P2 = control ground=on T = data high=low carrier compatible with the remod as is no inverter needed. G = ground To get inside to recover the module. Remove the glass screen its stuck on. Gently pry off. There are 4 screws one in each corner. You could simply tap the module out and use it or feed the data back into the clock. Lots of options. But my only goal is a source of clock modules for time-nuts that does not require a microscope to solder. By keeping the loopstick you can wrap 10 turns of wire around the end and feed a larger active antenna to it as a tuned stage. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Time-nuts question on message size??? 119KB vs 165KB
Trying to keep the message and attachements below the 128KB limit. I send a 119KB message and it gets held as a 165KB message. Can someone help me to understand the difference please? Thanks Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Time-nuts question on message size??? 119KB vs 165KB
Thanks Hal Yes I sent the same email to my business account and could see it was 148KB. Gmail does not give you email size cause they sell storage. So they make it hard to manage your folders and the sizes. I did use thunderbird for a bit and may need to go back to that. It did however tend to clear stuff out I did not want deleted. Need to re-explore it. Regards Paul. On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: paulsw...@gmail.com said: Trying to keep the message and attachements below the 128KB limit. I send a 119KB message and it gets held as a 165KB message. Can someone help me to understand the difference please? My guess would be base64 encoding? For binary files, you only get 6 bits per (text) byte rather than all 8. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Time-nuts question on message size??? 119KB vs 165KB
Thanks Tom and Hal I was trying to understand what the change was and now I know the pix get bigger. I will keep that in mind for the future. Regards Paul. On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: Paul, Your expectation works for text attachments. But binary attachments (e.g., jpg) expand about 33%. That's 8/6, or log2(256)/log2(64), due to base64 encoding of 8-bit bytes. In general, large attachments on this list are ok. It's just that when they are above 128k they are temporarily held for manual review. I let most of them go through with little delay. /tvb (i5s) On Jul 11, 2014, at 9:21 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Trying to keep the message and attachements below the 128KB limit. I send a 119KB message and it gets held as a 165KB message. Can someone help me to understand the difference please? Thanks Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remodulator update Sent twice but never made it through ...
Nigel Thanks as I am experiencing a gmail issue with what it considers is spam. Like you email I am absolutely unclear as to whats getting through. Many others are experiencing the same behavior. Its AOL or something. Thank you for letting me know it did make it through. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:25 PM, gandal...@aol.com wrote: Hi Paul Although I can't see any evidence of your attachment when I check the archives, I thought I'd received a copy with your messages that were forwarded from the list on both occasions you sent it, unless what you're referring to now is a different file? What I received both times as an attachment was a 3 page file.. WWVBremodulatorupdate07012014.pdf. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/07/2014 22:31:08 GMT Daylight Time, paulsw...@gmail.com writes: Happy 4th of July on this Hurricane soaked day to any in the US. I did send the document set out twice this week and I thought it might get through with time-nuts blessing. It didn't. So will have to assemble an email with those that requested the documentation and send it directly to you all. Sorry for the delay. Will be great fun doing this with gmail. NOT. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Introduction and info about a Lucent RFTG
Email is getting really annoying. Gmail makes you do a dance to get it active again. So here is my response a second time. The system has a RB and a fine oven osc that is disciplined to the RB in case the RB fails. The xtals pretty nice and even though an oven draws quite low current when warm. Both the RB and Xtal connect to a 2 way combiner to 9 way splitter for passive distribution. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 8:06 AM, gandal...@aol.com wrote: Hi Denver When you refer to one side or the other, do you have the complete RFTG unit with the two modules? I only have the internals of the Rubidium module so would hardly claim to be an expert on these, or on much else for that matter:-), but as I understand it from the documentation this is a reduntant system, in that either the GPSDO or the Rubidium module is active at any one time with the other in standby. In other words, there's no suggestion that the Rubidium module is locked to GPS, it is indeed free running, whilst the GPS module is used to discipline its own crystal oscillator. However, although the free running Rubidium module will need occasional adjustment, as opposed to the GPSDO wich shoudn't, a free running Rubidium reference is still not something to be sneezed at. Section 2.1 RFTG Functionality, in the documentation refers to this in more detail. There was a fair bit of discussion here at one time regarding these so I'm surprised you haven't found more in the archives. For example, another list member, Skip Withrow, produced an article in January 2013 detailing how to modify the RFTGm GPSDO to obtain a 10MHz output, which he suggests should also apply to the earlier versions and I've also seen information on the Rubidium modules. Because my Rubidium module arrived with just the two attached PCBs and no outer metalwork whatsoever it was easier for me anyway to just put the 15MHz generator board to one side and use the interface board only with its special D connector still attached to make the thing functional. If I'd had the complete unit, including metalwork, I would probably have approached it differently. On my unit at least the actual Rubidium module was an Efratom FRS and there's documentation available online for these should you wish to run it stand alone However, it would seem to me that without too much work, and utilising the existing metalwork, these two units between them could provide the basis for a 10MHz Rubidium Standard plus a separate 10MHz GPSDO, but turning them into a GPS disciplined Rubidium unit perhaps not quite so straightforward:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 05/07/2014 07:38:44 GMT Daylight Time, denc...@gmail.com writes: Thank Rex and Paul for the replies From what I understand my RFTG has a GPSDO on oneside that has a crystal oven inside it, and a rubidium source on the other side. The rubidium source takes a signal from the GPSDO side and uses that for longer term stability. But If I am understanding you, Rex, that the rubidium is really not a gps locked oscillator and just a free running device. I will start tearing down the unit to figure out if I can make something more usable out of it. I will make sure to document it and post it somewhere on the web. I read somewhere on this group that there is a way to bypass the 15MHz generating circuit and use the existing hardware amplifier and distribution at 10MHz. I will also be looking into that as well. Rex, you are correct as there is no power supply inside and I have it hooked up to a open frame type switching supply externally. Paul - I will be setting up my GPS antenna shortly and trying to get it to lock to GPS for a more precise reference. Thanks all -Denver On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: Several years ago there were a number of these showing up pretty cheap on eBay, so I bought one. As I recall there were a couple of similar versions with some differences so take this recollection with a grain of salt. I did some tracing of the internals on the one I had and found the rubidium unit had no connection on the tuning pin (C-field) to the board circuits. So it was free running, only for backup in the system, and not GPS lockable. I don't remember there being any useful power supply in the box, so my advice would be to remove the LPRO rubidium and use it directly. (It does need heat sinking, so maybe some parts of the box mechanicals are useful.) In my opinion, working out how to use the supporting circuit board is not worth the effort, unless you really have a need for the 15 MHz they create. You should be able to find documentation for the internal module LPRO rubidiums on the web. I haven't looked today but KO4BB site probably has it. On 7/4/2014 1:47 PM, Denver wrote: Hi all, My name is Denver I am currently a freshman
[time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and a question
I have received 2 different emails that what I published seems to have gone out. A 243KB PDF sent through time-nuts. Also sent out dropbox links and indirectly it appears that works. Would appreciate some more feedback please on how you may have obtained the documentation to see what works best. Also found 2 errors on the schematic and those are corrected here. Both are around the 2n3904 transistor. 100K increased to 270K better behavior 47 ohm typo its 1.8K not really picky. Regards Paul WB8TSL Remodulator op_ver1 07082014.sch Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic...
Adobe pro must be 10 or 11 but only a year or so old. It is opening for others Burt. If its the very last 30 minutes ago file thats a schematic and you need expresspcb. Its free. Regards Paul. On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote: I can't read the files the link takes me to. It does not look like a pdf file extension. What program created it? Burt, K6OQK At 11:50 AM 7/8/2014, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com, Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and a question I have received 2 different emails that what I published seems to have gone out. A 243KB PDF sent through time-nuts. Also sent out dropbox links and indirectly it appears that works. Would appreciate some more feedback please on how you may have obtained the documentation to see what works best. Also found 2 errors on the schematic and those are corrected here. Both are around the 2n3904 transistor. 100K increased to 270K better behavior 47 ohm typo its 1.8K not really picky. Regards Paul WB8TSL -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Remodulator op_ver1 07082014.sch Type: application/octet-stream Size: 28739 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/ attachments/20140708/60dc34fa/attachment.obj Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and aquestion
Good catch. Man that copy and paste really nailed me. I grabbed the original wwvb rcvr. Appears another piece is missing. Thats pin 1 is the 3.3V in. Updated schematic On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: How does the 3.3 volts get into the Rx chip? Tom - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com; Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:50 PM Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and aquestion I have received 2 different emails that what I published seems to have gone out. A 243KB PDF sent through time-nuts. Also sent out dropbox links and indirectly it appears that works. Would appreciate some more feedback please on how you may have obtained the documentation to see what works best. Also found 2 errors on the schematic and those are corrected here. Both are around the 2n3904 transistor. 100K increased to 270K better behavior 47 ohm typo its 1.8K not really picky. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Remodulator op_ver1 07082014.sch Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB remodulator dropbox links (I hope)
Here are 2 documents I can add several 2 MB pictires and such if it works. The other comment is that its great to see the interest from various time-nuts. Thanks https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvc6k4qxq9d0t30/Remodulator%20operational%2006282014a.sch https://www.dropbox.com/s/4lg70hf9erhqszt/WWVB%20remodulator%20update%2007012014.pdf Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Interesting frequency standard project
An interesting article much like one Bert sent me circa 1989 quite recently. The key to these systems is that the transmitters have very good references. In the US at least we have no requirement for that level of stability on the MW broadcasts. Though evidently some stations are quite good. I think I have a list some place have to re-look. Curious can you see a schematic or must you subscribe... It is a nicely written article. I used to buy elctor in the book stores when it was available. Thanks Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Collins, Graham coll...@navcanada.ca wrote: I am sure there are others on list who follow Elektor Magazine and even perhaps their forums but there are likely many that do not. I stumbled across this interesting frequency standard project and thought others might also be interested: http://www.elektor-labs.com/project/low-cost-frequency-standard-disciplined-by-france-inter.14000.html A bit of light reading and nothing really new to the old hands but it seems that person is well on the way to being a time / frequency nut if not already there. Cheers, Graham ve3gtc This electronic message, as well as any transmitted files included in the electronic message, may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this electronic message in error please notify the sender immediately and delete the electronic message. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the electronic message is strictly forbidden. NAV CANADA accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus and/or other malicious code transmitted by this electronic communication. Le pr?sent message ?lectronique et tout fichier qui peut y ?tre joint peuvent contenir des renseignements privil?gi?s ou confidentiels destin?s ? l'usage exclusif des personnes ou des organismes ? qui ils s'adressent. Si vous avez re?u ce message ?lectronique par erreur, veuillez en informer l'exp?diteur imm?diatement et supprimez le. Toute reproduction, divulgation ou distribution du pr?sent message ?lectronique est strictement interdite. NAV CANADA n'assume aucune responsabilit? en cas de dommage caus? par tout virus ou autre programme malveillant transmis par ce message ?lectronique. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Introduction and info about a Lucent RFTG
Denver yes indeed they do a funny dance to take the 10 Mhz and get to 15. So you are rught unless you need 15 tapping the 10 and simply filtering and buffering is a very fine way to go. There is a power amp on the output of the 15 Mhz as I recall that will work fine at 10. That can then drive a passive 6 or more way splitter. There isn't much more you can really do with it. Oh you could get crazy and lock it to GPS. But then it just depends on what do you want to accomplish. Nothing wrong with a good reference. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Denver denc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, My name is Denver I am currently a freshman in college and the time bug has struck me. I recently acquired a Lucent RFTG on ebay to have a time standard for my lab(and yes already realize its 15MHz output but may be able to change that and or just use the 10MHz test point from the rubidium source). I made a power connector for it. Now that I have power applied and sort of verified its operation I am looking for more info about the connectors on the front panel. I have the KO4BB user documentation on it but it doesn't mention much about connectors and pinouts. I also have already searched the group for other mentions of the RFTG but all I am able to come up with is some of the newer models the -m and such. Maybe one of you could help point me in the right direction or give me some other ideas on how to get more use out of this unit. Thanks in advance -Denver ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB remodulator update Sent twice but never made it through XX More
Happy 4th of July on this Hurricane soaked day to any in the US. I did send the document set out twice this week and I thought it might get through with time-nuts blessing. It didn't. So will have to assemble an email with those that requested the documentation and send it directly to you all. Sorry for the delay. Will be great fun doing this with gmail. NOT. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Xtendwave Everset chips update
Emailed Pete at Everset about the ES100 and 200 chips and unfortunately only chip dies are available. I am good but not that good. He suggests that someday a vendor will be selling a clock and thats the only reasonable option that will be available. All in all completely unattractive, as someone is going to pay for this clever new timecode and it surely won't be me. Though if the clocks are in the $20 range thats a different discussion. Somehow I suspect its the $1000 range. No honest clue though. So clearly not a useful path to d-psk the wwvb or actually anything else. Tom so much for the predictive approach at least to a point. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Xtendwave Everset chips update
Bob Funny you mention that. I actually have a remote chance of actually doing that. I know a guy who knows a guy... I really don't want to get tangled in that total distraction actually. The value of the chip in at least a predictive wwvb d-psk-r is that you could easily obtain the nasty DST data. As I have only recently realized due to some pushing from Tom thats the mess not the 31 bit timecode. Quite the surprise actually. The everset chips actually don't give you useful things that you need like raw wwvb carrier or much else. So you are only leveraging the message for the dst clues. Lot of pain for little gain. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi If you want to go a bit crazy, there are places that will package up die for you. Depending on the resulting package, cost is in the $0.30 to $20 per part range. Most of the places will hit you with a ~ $500 setup charge and are unlikely to deal in less than 1,000 piece lots (unless things are really slow - not the case right now). If it’s a part that will fit in a “normal” ceramic DIP package, you *might* be able to manually wire bond it. Your local university it a good place to scout around for somebody with the gear to do the job. It’s not all that hard to do. It’s a “case of beer” sort of deal to get a handful of parts done. That assumes you can find the right guy and pay for the packages. There are a *lot* of them doing short run ASIC’s these days and they have to try them out somehow. The MPW run costs them $5K so they don’t spend a lot on the packaging. Bob On Jul 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Emailed Pete at Everset about the ES100 and 200 chips and unfortunately only chip dies are available. I am good but not that good. He suggests that someday a vendor will be selling a clock and thats the only reasonable option that will be available. All in all completely unattractive, as someone is going to pay for this clever new timecode and it surely won't be me. Though if the clocks are in the $20 range thats a different discussion. Somehow I suspect its the $1000 range. No honest clue though. So clearly not a useful path to d-psk the wwvb or actually anything else. Tom so much for the predictive approach at least to a point. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB
Many of the old receivers use them spectracoms come to mind. They are big units and +- 40 Hz BW and I am totally unaware that they can be found today. That also goes for nice transformers and inductors to build higher Q circuits. I built a opamp chain and it worked well but those crazy amps do draw power. I like the ua consumption level. But thats a personnel preference. I used the 60 KHz watch Xtals and its in the schematics of the WWVB rcvr I released to time-nuts a year ago. These little crystals are interesting to work with and available from China 25 xtals for a few $ at the pay site. I purchased 2 packs so that I could sift through them. The trick is to very very lightly load them. I could learn much more about them actually. They seem useful overall. The first re-modulator used them directly as the 60 KHz source. I stepped up to the 15.360 MHz osc only because I believed they were not accurate enough and that turned out not to be the case as I found. The other comment to note is that these xtals cause an actual signal gap at the phase transition. Because at that point the signal is actually 2 X 60 Khz. The crystal gaps for at least 8 cycles from what I have seen. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Martin VE3OAT ve3...@storm.ca wrote: John Reed wrote : By the way, my 5 section synchronous filter is an LC with op-amps between each stage to bring the gain up for the squaring chip. It has a 2 KHz -6 dB bandwidth at 60 KHz. John, have you thought of using a single 60.0 kHz crystal as a bandpass filter? I can't remember which receiver it was, but I think one of the old commercial WWVB receivers used a crystal as the tuning element. ... Martin VE3OAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB
Yes indeed I have 2 X 599s also and the IF is complicated and if you don't have the magical 60 KHz mod (I don't) you have to hack a solution. That I did. Essentially double the vco and div by 2. While feeding the vco to the mixer. Hey it worked most of the time and on a solid test signal always worked and I mean for weeks. The 60 KHz xtals existed and still may. Fun to tinker with and cheap. In fact because if the IF scheme of the 599 thats why I went to an external solution. You can hack each rcvr internally to succeed. But thats hacking. An external approach allows all of them to work. The 117s 207 spectracoms... Hence the d-psk-r/costas loop soluyion released a year ago. But its semi digital and analog and I have to say I never really figured out what the magical VCO filter needed to be. Though I experimented. It works. But its a guess. Regards Paul On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 1:00 PM, John Reed ka5...@sbcglobal.net wrote: First on the Schmidt trigger - The problem is that at the start of each bit that WWVB transmits the squared 60 KHz signal is essentially dead and the trigger must pick a new starting point. This point seems to be random and can apparently end up as a positive or negative, so you end up with phase changes of 180 after the flip flop. No trigger can fix this. The system has to have some memory of the phase and this is why the Costas loop works. I thought about getting rid of the 100 KHz front end filter in the Tracor and seeing if I could modify it by squaring the LO signal. This isn't straightforward either. The Tracor has a complex method of generating the IF signal. I wasn't aware that 60 KHz crystals are available. I would have used these instead of the LC filters. I had some old telephone loading ferrite toroid coils, so most of the hardware was available. Thanks for all the comments on this. At least I understand the problem now, and why the solution will take some work. John -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:49 AM To: Martin VE3OAT ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB Many of the old receivers use them spectracoms come to mind. They are big units and +- 40 Hz BW and I am totally unaware that they can be found today. That also goes for nice transformers and inductors to build higher Q circuits. I built a opamp chain and it worked well but those crazy amps do draw power. I like the ua consumption level. But thats a personnel preference. I used the 60 KHz watch Xtals and its in the schematics of the WWVB rcvr I released to time-nuts a year ago. These little crystals are interesting to work with and available from China 25 xtals for a few $ at the pay site. I purchased 2 packs so that I could sift through them. The trick is to very very lightly load them. I could learn much more about them actually. They seem useful overall. The first re-modulator used them directly as the 60 KHz source. I stepped up to the 15.360 MHz osc only because I believed they were not accurate enough and that turned out not to be the case as I found. The other comment to note is that these xtals cause an actual signal gap at the phase transition. Because at that point the signal is actually 2 X 60 Khz. The crystal gaps for at least 8 cycles from what I have seen. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Martin VE3OAT ve3...@storm.ca wrote: John Reed wrote : By the way, my 5 section synchronous filter is an LC with op-amps between each stage to bring the gain up for the squaring chip. It has a 2 KHz -6 dB bandwidth at 60 KHz. John, have you thought of using a single 60.0 kHz crystal as a bandpass filter? I can't remember which receiver it was, but I think one of the old commercial WWVB receivers used a crystal as the tuning element. ... Martin VE3OAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Sad news Ulrich Bangert
Hartmut that is indeed a friend that can keep a persons knowledge going and had been entrusted with the details. Good luck to you and thank you. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Hartmut Paesler timen...@paesler.de wrote: Dear group, please let me express my thanks for all your condolences. I collected them all and will pass them to Ulrichs relatives. I am quite sure they will be surprised and pleased about the number of people who sent a message. There was the question what will happen with Ulrichs software tools. They definitively will not fade way. The web site will stay active, probably with just the download section active. I knew Ulrich for some 25 years. Besides being friends, we also did quite a lot of professional collaboration. From this I know his working style. I do have the source code and am familiar with the development tools he used. So basically I am able to maintain and develop the software further. I use the term basically because Ulrichs special knowledge in accurate timing and oscillators was at least one, if not two, orders of magnitude better than mine. Ulrich never disclosed source code and I will obey his desire. Best regards, Hartmut DL1YDD On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 03:12:36PM -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote: Hi Hartmut, Thanks for letting us know. Ulrich has been on this mailing list since the early days. He is one of several with his own web site ( www.ulrich-bangert.de) and freely shared his designs, articles, and software tools with the world. He was a quality contributor to the list, and many of us also have lots of private emails from him over the years. As Said already mentioned, please pass along condolences to his loved ones, on behalf of the group. Thanks, /tvb - Original Message - From: Hartmut Paesler timen...@paesler.de To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 1:52 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Sad news Ulrich Bangert Dear group, unfortunately I have to deliver the sad news that Ulrich Bangert, DF6JB passed away on 11/06, aged 59. Best regards, Hartmut DL1YDD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB
John welcome to time nuts. This won't be a super long post have other things to do. Search for d-psk-r and you can see a few of my exploits. Summation. It ain't easy. It appears to be really easy unless you are far away like the east coast. Then the propagation gods enter into the picture along with the 60 KHz station in England that shows up most nights. The simplest of approaches was indeed the old doubling trick and the many flavors of it. I built most along with regenerative dividers and other trickery. Fact is it simply drops a count and that flips the phase quite annoying. I finally created two approaches. One specifically for spectracom devices essentially adding a third mixer and checking for the flip. Works but requires internal hacking of the spectracom. The other pretty much a freestanding receiever using a classic costas loop approach. All details were released to time nuts over a year ago. My next stab is more of a digital approach using the STM discovery board. Have to say I seem to get lost in some of the basics of getting all of the crazy registers set. However its value is it can run very very fast. So you can do some nice sampling. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: John wrote: I discovered an article on the web that uses an AD835 multiplier chip to square the WWVB signal * * *. I built a five section synchronous filter tuned to 60 KHz to get rid of interference and its output feeds the 835 chip. This all works fine. * * * the 599J won't tune that high so I have to divide this 120 KHz frequency by 2. * * * I've tried to generate a pulse train from the 120 KHz signal and then use a flip-flop to divide the frequency. This does not work well. Apparently generating the pulse train picks up noise and I end up with a 60 KHz signal with fluctuating phase. Now I'm trying to get a Miller frequency divider working Why are you trying to generate pulses, rather than just squaring (clipping) the output of the 835 in a saturated amplifier? Pulses have less energy and therefore higher noise. All you need is a signal-conditioning squarer matched to the level coming out of the 835 (see Bruce Griffith's pages at ko4bb.com for ideas, as well as the Wenzel site and any number of illustrations in Experimental Methods in RF Design -- for example, both Figures 5-46 and 4-45 show complete simple squarers with FF dividers). Even a CMOS gate biased to half-voltage should work fine. I like the NC7SZ74 Dflop for the divider. Half of a 74HC74 works fine, too. This should be the kind of thing you throw together in 15 minutes and it works first time. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB update on the remodulator released last year. Its racked and stacked
Hello to the group. Been a while. Wanted to update the group on the WWVB remodulator that allows receivers like the spectracom 8170, Netclock 2 and Truetime DC60 to work with the new BPSK signal and display accurate time. The plan had been to leverage the accurate d-psk-r 60 Khz clock for the remodulator. But Its been a while and I simply decided to build the whole remodulator up in a separate 1 RU box. Took no time at all. Hardest part was drilling holes for BNC connectors. I had a concern on frequency stability and the fact is the internal crystals of these radios is +-40 Hz. Simply not an issue. The DC60 would loose lock frequently. Turns out the DC60 had a bad molex connector on the 5 VDC supply. Fixed issue problem gone. However I did upgrade the 60 Khz clock from the pure crystal that did work to a 15.360 Mhz oscillator (Vectron) divide by 256 using a 74HC393 chip to feed the modulator a 74HC08. I used all 4 sections of the 08 to create 2 outputs that split to feed 6 total ports with 1.8K ohm pull downs for those radios that sense a antenna. All of the wwvb clock units work and I have 2 spare ports. Updated the schematics and if anyone wants a set let me know. What really motivated me was several thread with another time nut and I decided, why wait build a separate box and be done. Also will send a separate email discussing the small atomic clocks and how to use them for the remodulator. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB update on the remodulator released last year. Its racked and stacked
To be very clear the remodulator is only for clock systems that display time as I have listed above. It will not fix 117, 599, 207s 8163 or any other phase tracking system. That said the remodulator fixs about 50% of whats out there. I am collecting emails from several people so will email everyone in a day or so. Google mails kind of a pain in that respect. Regards Paul. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:04 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Been a while. Wanted to update the group on the WWVB remodulator that allows receivers like the spectracom 8170, Netclock 2 and Truetime DC60 to work with the new BPSK signal and display accurate time. The plan had been to leverage the accurate d-psk-r 60 Khz clock for the remodulator. But Its been a while and I simply decided to build the whole remodulator up in a separate 1 RU box. Took no time at all. Hardest part was drilling holes for BNC connectors. I had a concern on frequency stability and the fact is the internal crystals of these radios is +-40 Hz. Simply not an issue. The DC60 would loose lock frequently. Turns out the DC60 had a bad molex connector on the 5 VDC supply. Fixed issue problem gone. However I did upgrade the 60 Khz clock from the pure crystal that did work to a 15.360 Mhz oscillator (Vectron) divide by 256 using a 74HC393 chip to feed the modulator a 74HC08. I used all 4 sections of the 08 to create 2 outputs that split to feed 6 total ports with 1.8K ohm pull downs for those radios that sense a antenna. All of the wwvb clock units work and I have 2 spare ports. Updated the schematics and if anyone wants a set let me know. What really motivated me was several thread with another time nut and I decided, why wait build a separate box and be done. Also will send a separate email discussing the small atomic clocks and how to use them for the remodulator. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB
The phase jumps are a killer and I assure you if a simple approach like limiters multipliers would work and I have done everyone of them that would have been the answer. Ya know it just can't be that hard. Guess what it actually is that hard. Darn, but that is the cost of learning. Nothings for free. There has to have been a reason that all the clever none work receivers went to the trouble of PLLs and such. They were pretty smart engineers. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote: thank you for that info, 2kHz bandwidth is a big problem for me, since a very strong -- approx 20dB above the desired -- and not so stabile carrier is just 700 Hz away --upward -- from the desired 60kHz, a to narrow bandwidth is also a problem since it converts the phase modulation into amplitude modulation -- the filter has to change the phase, for 180° phase change it needs approx two times the Q times period timethat trick makes the atomic clocks with crystal filter also crazy., the see some unexpected characters Apropos atomic clocks, there is no usable available chip on the market which would work Question, what was the goal to introduce that new modulation schema? Since the new modulation scheme caused more trouble than usable result, could it happen, that it will disappear? 73 Alex On 6/29/2014 10:08 AM, John Reed wrote: Thanks Paul. I thought that this would be a simple project. But, I'm seeing that random phase jump problem on every method I've tried so far. My first attempt was a 2N that would go into saturation on the plus cycle, then into a flip-flop. I ended up with the phase problem on the 60 KHz output. Then I tried using a pulse generator into a flip-flop. Same problem. The puzzling thing is the 120 KHz output from the 2N or pulse generator look fine, but the 50 KHz output of the flip-flop is not. By the way, my 5 section synchronous filter is an LC with op-amps between each stage to bring the gain up for the squaring chip. It has a 2 KHz -6 dB bandwidth at 60 KHz. John -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 9:34 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Dephasing WWVB John welcome to time nuts. This won't be a super long post have other things to do. Search for d-psk-r and you can see a few of my exploits. Summation. It ain't easy. It appears to be really easy unless you are far away like the east coast. Then the propagation gods enter into the picture along with the 60 KHz station in England that shows up most nights. The simplest of approaches was indeed the old doubling trick and the many flavors of it. I built most along with regenerative dividers and other trickery. Fact is it simply drops a count and that flips the phase quite annoying. I finally created two approaches. One specifically for spectracom devices essentially adding a third mixer and checking for the flip. Works but requires internal hacking of the spectracom. The other pretty much a freestanding receiever using a classic costas loop approach. All details were released to time nuts over a year ago. My next stab is more of a digital approach using the STM discovery board. Have to say I seem to get lost in some of the basics of getting all of the crazy registers set. However its value is it can run very very fast. So you can do some nice sampling. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: John wrote: I discovered an article on the web that uses an AD835 multiplier chip to square the WWVB signal * * *. I built a five section synchronous filter tuned to 60 KHz to get rid of interference and its output feeds the 835 chip. This all works fine. * * * the 599J won't tune that high so I have to divide this 120 KHz frequency by 2. * * * I've tried to generate a pulse train from the 120 KHz signal and then use a flip-flop to divide the frequency. This does not work well. Apparently generating the pulse train picks up noise and I end up with a 60 KHz signal with fluctuating phase. Now I'm trying to get a Miller frequency divider working Why are you trying to generate pulses, rather than just squaring (clipping) the output of the 835 in a saturated amplifier? Pulses have less energy and therefore higher noise. All you need is a signal-conditioning squarer matched to the level coming out of the 835 (see Bruce Griffith's pages at ko4bb.com for ideas, as well as the Wenzel site and any number of illustrations in Experimental Methods in RF Design -- for example, both Figures 5-46 and 4-45 show complete simple squarers with FF dividers). Even a CMOS gate biased to half-voltage should work fine. I like the NC7SZ74 Dflop for the divider. Half of a 74HC74 works fine, too. This should be the kind of thing you throw together in 15
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
QST lightning radar. But what a mess you get with google and every lightning and radar TV station in the US. Oh well if your replacing TVs every few years whats a few more opamps? Now how does a poor man build something for what started this whole thread? Time for me to hop off this thread. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 2:37 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Scientific American magazine today is a mere shadow of its former self, due mainly to a new publisher imported from Popular Science magazine. There is no longer an Amateur Scientist article in each issue. Amen to that! It's also turned from reporting to preaching-political! I always wanted to build the amateur scientist stuff, but there were always the lines with arrows off the figure to power supply. Wonder if that's why I have hell boxes full of old power supplies:-) Probably a darned good thing I didn't build the x-ray tube! Don -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
I have never seen an article using exotic special tubes. I understand that benefit but common tubes do a fine job. I still believe it was a QST article. Maybe 73 magazine. It was a long time ago. When I started using the 12AU7s again for the vlf pre-amp they were $1 or so 7 years ago. Now audiophiles have driven them into the silly range especially on the websites. I scrounged 4 at really good prices $2 recently. But the audiophiles were on the hunt as I noticed. Bottom line a tube frontend is easy to build for this application. Even if we want to make it seem hard. Its simply not the front end. Its the other parts of the solution that should be the focus. How to make a sub $$ solution. The European solution is several hundred Euros. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Brian Lloyd br...@lloyd.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 9:08 PM, DaveH i...@blackmountainforge.com wrote: The tube was probably the FP-54 http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/141/f/FP54.pdf No luck on finding the article - it is not in the Handbook of Projects for the Amateur Scientist by C.L. Stong http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/projects_for_the_amateur_scienti st.pdf I thought it might be as I remember there was a project to detect sferics but this one used plain 12AU7s and 6AU6s When I was a kid this may have been my favorite book. I did build the MRS when I was 12. Sucker actually worked too! I was amazed. I have built several things from this and used many of the projects with modern electronics as projects for my students in middle school. -- Brian Lloyd Lloyd Aviation 706 Flightline Drive Spring Branch, TX 78070 br...@lloyd.com +1.916.877.5067 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
It was QST and Max is right. I built it. There was a e-field antenna for amplitude and the crossed antennas the XY access. I guess the old brain has somethings correct. Now can I remember the tube line up. Heavens no. :-) The CRT was a little mil surplus 3p... But enough of that. Whats the chance of finding the article that would be a kick. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: You might be thinking of the file that David Byrne sent to the HP list last year on 9/7/13. It was an article by C. L. Stong and I think it was published in The Amateur Scientist in 1963. You should be able to find it in the HP list archives. Bob From: Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing I think the QST article being referred to in this thread is one that I remember rather clearly. I kept the issue for a long time but it got away from me somewhere along the line. It was a lightening direction finder using a display much like a radar PPI. It used two crossed untuned loops and a vertical. All three signals were amplified using tubes and one of the loops was fed to the horizontal deflection plates of a CRT and the other loop's signal was fed to the vertical plates. The signal from the vertical was fed to the control grid of the CRT. The project was essentially an XY scope built from the ground up. He suggested figuring out the polarity of things by waiting for close lightening that was visible and correlating sightings with the display on the CRT. You wouldn't use a general purpose scope because the fair weather condition would burn a spot in the center of the screen. One more thing. He wound the loops in hula hoops he had cut open. I still have two hula hoops awaiting the project. The bandwidth of his amplifiers was low audio to about 100 kHz. I suspect that in today's radio environment some tuned traps would be necessary to notch out some of the strong signals in that frequency range. You now have all the information I have and I am sure I could build one if only I could find the time. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Chris, NMEA is a good 'general purpose' interface for GPS units but I thought this thread was about the GPSDO interface. Not quite the same - TSIP/SCPI would make rather more sense here, especially with all those Thunderbolts about :-) Most GPS receivers still supply at least one serial interface even if a USB interface is included too. Consumer grade 'very small' navigation type GPS units may dispense with the serial ports but we are not too worried about those devices, surely? I don't see why a serial to USB converter would be needed - serial ports are still available on a reasonably large number of motherboards, especially if you are using mini-ITX or similar for embedded projects, and a hardware UART is a much more reliable interface. USB/serial adaptors 'still' give erratic results and scanning usb ports for new devices is also a bit of a lottery at times. A serial interface is also the easiest to convert to a more 'robust' physical media for electrically 'unpleasant' environments and DB9/25 connectors are a LOT more reliable than USB connectors too! regards, PaulG8GJA -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: 26 June 2014 08:13 To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface? If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's NMEA and it's relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes can output NMEA. Also you talked about serial. I hate to say it but who in 2014 wants a serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If you used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so you may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9 and DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs. Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few #ifdef in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to re-compile in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to swap the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and wires and recompiling On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it will have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an off-board DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff around and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions. So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due to the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status, but only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test with now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost nonexistent. I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously to forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease and desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product. It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with an identical user interface. I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot of extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course. Bob From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface? Bob, A couple of different ideas: 1) No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP SmartClock's
Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:14 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those patents expired? You almost certainly want to use SCPI which is managed by IVI and is part of the joint IEEE/IEC post 488 spec. Said can probably provide the vendor perspective (ie. price). NMEA is proprietary and all the useful commands are vendor specific. TSIP is only interesting because LH can manage a few versions but besides being proprietary it's device specific. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] microcontroller based IRIG generator
I went about obtaining a solution in a round about way in building a GOES satellite simulator that drives a truetime DC468 rcvr. It has IRIG B outputs. I do like the displays on the truetime rcvrs. Just pulled the unit out as I believe the gps rcvr may have an issue as noted on other threads. If true, time (Pun intended) to convert to a $21 ublox. Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 5:17 AM, Morris Odell vilgo...@bigpond.net.au wrote: I did this successfully a few years ago using an AVR 90S8535 to generate IRIG B so that I could use a vintage nixie IRIG display with a Trimble Lassen IQ GPS receiver that spoke NMEA IIRC. I used one of the counters in the AVR to generate the 1 KHz carrier, read the serial output of the receiver with the USART in the AVR, translated it and generated a binary IRIG code to modulate the carrier by switching the bottom of a resistive divider up and down. It wasn't too hard as I recall, and I was much less experienced in AVR programming in those days. Morris Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:26:40 -0400 From: Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] microcontroller based IRIG generator Message-ID: CACsYtUsmAdz_08+Z8sHEh=koPuCkko263ijh3HkA89yz=b0+Nw@ mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I remember a few discussions over the last few years about building a microcontroller (PIC, Arduino, MPS430, whatever floats your boat) based IRIG generator. Did anyone ever get one working? Thanks! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
I have been watching the blitzortung system in the US for a few days now and really like the clean and simple display. Very nicely done. Also downloaded the information package. Oddly it does not use any 12AU7s in the design. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 2:24 AM, nuts n...@lazygranch.com wrote: This one is/was run by the Neveda Test Site. I don't know if NOAA took it over. When you get strikes, it give the lat/lon. http://www.sord.nv.doe.gov/Lightning.php?Location=SouthwestLtime=30 At the moment, all is quiet on the western front. However, I have to say that near real time website is more impressive. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
I am currently using a 12AX7 as a ELF preamp and have for years. A note in the coldest part of winter preheat the tube low filament voltage. They tend to fracture. It sits 200 ft from the house as far away in the woods as possible. That said and back to the thread. At these frequencies tubes do work. The 12AX7 can be found on vlf.it and numbers of tubes will work. They run 12 V on the plate. They also stand up to nearby lightning very well. So Diddier now you have no excuse. I can't wait to implement your design on one of my stm boards. Not sure how to get this back on time-nuts topics Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 16957e54-f6d5-4c0a-9068-6f0c772d2...@email.android.com, Didier Jug es writes: I think it would be perfectly appropriate to design an LF amplifier with 12AU7s considering the high signal levels when the storm does get close. Somewhere, sometime, I saw an homebrew article for a lightning detector which was based on some obscure valve/tube that had grid on the top terminal. A wire from the grid electrode ran to a porcelain isolator and from there to the wire antenna, in order to get the highest possible imput impedance. I have no idea where I saw that article, but some HAM magazine or possibly Elector about 10-20 years back is a good guess. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing
Oh man does this bring back memories of 12au7s and loop antennas pre internet 1970 as I recall. A QST magazine article. I built it and it used a crt for readout. There wasn't really a way back then to share the data. But will say this is quite a nice setup. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: I am seriously considering involved as I am a bit of a weather nut too. I suspect this is quite common. You don't have to get into precise time very deep before you realize that all your timing gear is just pile of environmental sensors in disguise. Before time-nuts began, the first timing guy I met was Doug Hogarth (www.niceties.com) and he was seriously into weather measurement. He later got into the world of ultra-precise weight (mass) measurement. So I guess time-nuts is just a subset of measurement nuts. A quartz oscillator makes a good thermometer and sometimes a hygrometer and barometer too. An OCXO is a sensitive anemometer (just ask anyone who uses a PWM fan for TBolt temperature control). Quartz also makes an excellent accelerometer, gravimeter, tiltmeter, or even seismometer. An OCXO with EFC is a good voltmeter. Atomic clocks are superb magnetometers. And as Einstein predicted, atomic clocks make good altimeters and speedometers too. So everything we play with is a sensor. It's no wonder we are preoccupied with environmental sensing. Maybe Time is just what's left over after you shield or attenuate or compensate for everything else. /tvb See also: Quartz Resonators vs Their Environment: Time Base or Sensor? http://dev.quartzdyne.com/pdfs/quartzresonators.pdf http://www.paroscientific.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
