Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Tony: I followed your suggestion and got both Seize the Daylight and Spring Forward from my local library. Seize the daylight : the curious and contentious story of daylight saving time / David Prerau / ISBN 1560256559 Spring forward : the annual madness of daylight saving / Michael Downing / ISBN 1582434956 Both have very interesting facts about the history of DST, but IMO Seize the Daylight is a much more enjoyable reading, following a script that better describes the events around each change (and has illustrations, too...). Things that some of us late 20th century creatures don't realize, like major city times, that would be off 35 minutes and only became a problem when trains started to connect them. Farmer's point of view, crusades for DST, war, etc. After reading them, I'm cured - no more posts defending, criticizing or suggesting amendments to DST. I just belong to the a certain DST 'religion' that would prefer we didn't have a 1hr step change twice a year, period. No desire to evangelize anyone in the other DST denominations, which is Quixotean task just as futile. It is too late now. Now if they propose changing the thermometer scales, to show 10 degrees higher in winter, 10 degrees lower in summer, to do similar mass hypnosis to save heating and a/c energy, I'll write my congresswoman. :-) Thanks for the book recommendation. Jose -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tony Finch Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle: Northerly or northeasterly 4 or 5 increasing 5 or 6, but 6 or 7 in far west at first. Moderate or rough. Rain or showers. Moderate or poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: Thanks for the book recommendation. I'm enormously pleased you enjoyed it. Sounds like you had the same unexpected reaction that I did! Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Northwest FitzRoy, Sole, Lundy, Fastnet: Westerly or southwesterly 4 or 5. Moderate or rough. Occasional rain. Good, occasionally poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Le 23/07/2011 01:39, Horst Schmidt a écrit : Ha, you may well ask. The reason to hate DST is given to us in the southern parts of Australia, by our Queensland cousins: The problems with DST is : 1. The Cows get very confused and the farmers have problems milking them. 2. The chickens don't know anymore when to lay the eggs. it is rumoured, that the shape of the eggs may suffer. However, this has not been proven, since Queensland never had DST. and 3. most importantly, The extra daylight fades the curtains more, and as every housewife will tell you: That will never do Not having DST looks dangerous to mental health. Luckily, my brother, who lives on the west coast has regular doses of DST and should not be affected. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
The problem is: multiple users in a wide area application, where manual reset of the new time is required - and some don't bother.. I have to process CCTV images from a wide range of separate, individual organisations, over whom I have no control. Some of them do a reset, others do not. Twice per year a lot of my time is wasted sorting out who has gone to DST (or vice versa) and who hasn't. Just as some users realise their system time is out by one hour, it's the time of year to change again! Automatic resets are the answer, but the smaller cheap-skate organisations will not spend the money. As soon as this illogical twice-yearly fiasco is ended, the better. Daylight Saving Time is a misnomer anyway - it's really Daylight Shifting Time. If you want more daylight, get out of bed earlier. Hate DST, keep UTC Universal. Ron The One - Original Message - From: Jim Palfreyman jim77...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Mr HeathKid, What is your reason for hating dst. The changeover is a pain - but after that, what is the problem? Jim On 22 July 2011 14:23, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: I live at 39° 57' 46 N and I absolutely HATE DST! Yes, Indiana... we haven't had DST for too long. It's bad and I hope some day we go back to not having it. - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC My earlier reply about flexible working practices still holds. Why not just move with the seasons. Before clocks, I'm sure that's what we did - we got up when it was light, and went to bed when it was dark. The bit in between just happens to be elastic... I live at 53 degrees North in the UK by the way. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.comtime-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 19 July 2011 1:58 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim On Tuesday, 19 July 2011, Thomas A Frank ka2...@cox.net wrote: BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Mr HeathKid, What is your reason for hating dst. The changeover is a pain - but after that, what is the problem? Jim On 22 July 2011 14:23, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: I live at 39° 57' 46 N and I absolutely HATE DST! Yes, Indiana... we haven't had DST for too long. It's bad and I hope some day we go back to not having it. - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC My earlier reply about flexible working practices still holds. Why not just move with the seasons. Before clocks, I'm sure that's what we did - we got up when it was light, and went to bed when it was dark. The bit in between just happens to be elastic... I live at 53 degrees North in the UK by the way. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.comtime-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 19 July 2011 1:58 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim On Tuesday, 19 July 2011, Thomas A Frank ka2...@cox.net wrote: BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Ha, you may well ask. The reason to hate DST is given to us in the southern parts of Australia, by our Queensland cousins: The problems with DST is : 1. The Cows get very confused and the farmers have problems milking them. 2. The chickens don't know anymore when to lay the eggs. it is rumoured, that the shape of the eggs may suffer. However, this has not been proven, since Queensland never had DST. and 3. most importantly, The extra daylight fades the curtains more, and as every housewife will tell you: That will never do On 22/07/2011 17:19, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Mr HeathKid, What is your reason for hating dst. The changeover is a pain - but after that, what is the problem? Jim On 22 July 2011 14:23, Heathkidheath...@heathkid.com wrote: I live at 39° 57' 46 N and I absolutely HATE DST! Yes, Indiana... we haven't had DST for too long. It's bad and I hope some day we go back to not having it. - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC My earlier reply about flexible working practices still holds. Why not just move with the seasons. Before clocks, I'm sure that's what we did - we got up when it was light, and went to bed when it was dark. The bit in between just happens to be elastic... I live at 53 degrees North in the UK by the way. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.comtime-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 19 July 2011 1:58 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim On Tuesday, 19 July 2011, Thomas A Frankka2...@cox.net wrote: BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
I live at 39° 57' 46 N and I absolutely HATE DST! Yes, Indiana... we haven't had DST for too long. It's bad and I hope some day we go back to not having it. - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC My earlier reply about flexible working practices still holds. Why not just move with the seasons. Before clocks, I'm sure that's what we did - we got up when it was light, and went to bed when it was dark. The bit in between just happens to be elastic... I live at 53 degrees North in the UK by the way. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 19 July 2011 1:58 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim On Tuesday, 19 July 2011, Thomas A Frank ka2...@cox.net wrote: BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim On Tuesday, 19 July 2011, Thomas A Frank ka2...@cox.net wrote: BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. I would say it backfired. At least here in Rhode Island, the extra daylight resulted in the compression of the trick or treating schedule, since all the little goblins and ghouls wanted to go out after dark (to better scare the homeowners and enjoy their glow in the dark costumes), but they also were expected home by 8pm (local). Net result is less candy given out. At least that has been my experience. Proving you shouldn't tamper with time. Measure yes, tamper, no. :-) Tom Frank, KA2CDK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Which part embarrasses you Jim, your belief that we as adults haven't noticed that the number of daylight hours changes with the seasons? Or is it the fact that this deep into the thread you still haven't figured out what it is about? -Chuck Harris Jim Palfreyman wrote: Far out. I've just read so many logical fallacies and government conspiracies I'm embarrassed for this high quality list. Let's inject some facts here. I live at 43 degrees south. At the winter solstice (June 21) the sun rises at 7:41 and sets at 16:43. At the summer solstice (December 21) the sun rises (no DST) at 04:28 and sets at 19:49. Sunrise at 04:28 is ridiculous. Including twilight it starts getting light at 3:30. Switch to DST and sunrise moves to 05:28 and sets at 20:49. Much more reasonable. Nice summer evenings too. We have DST for 6 months of the year and wouldn't swap it for anything. I understand it's different the closer to the equator you are, but for mid latitudes it really works. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle: Northerly or northeasterly 4 or 5 increasing 5 or 6, but 6 or 7 in far west at first. Moderate or rough. Rain or showers. Moderate or poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Tony: The book is available at my local library - I'll check it out with an open mind, but I just can't see what would be the difference of telling people they need to go to work 1hr earlier instead of 'fooling' them by changing their clocks. Wikipedia has a long article, too - it seems the original justification (power savings) hasn't been realized. Thanks, Jose -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tony Finch Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle: Northerly or northeasterly 4 or 5 increasing 5 or 6, but 6 or 7 in far west at first. Moderate or rough. Rain or showers. Moderate or poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
At 08:23 AM 7/18/2011, Tony Finch wrote... If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Nope. Not much there but an advertisement. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Jose, In many countries, the government has no right to tell companies when they should be open or closed. However, they control when midnight is. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:28:39 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Tony: The book is available at my local library - I'll check it out with an open mind, but I just can't see what would be the difference of telling people they need to go to work 1hr earlier instead of 'fooling' them by changing their clocks. Wikipedia has a long article, too - it seems the original justification (power savings) hasn't been realized. Thanks, Jose -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tony Finch Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle: Northerly or northeasterly 4 or 5 increasing 5 or 6, but 6 or 7 in far west at first. Moderate or rough. Rain or showers. Moderate or poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In Detroit, Michigan, when the auto manufacturing companies discovered that having everyone's shift starting at 8 AM caused huge traffic problems, companies chose non-rounded times. For example, one company starts their shift at 7:40 AM, another starts at 7:25, and so on. This was done without government intervention, just an intelligent choice. If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? On 07/18/2011 11:49 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Jose, In many countries, the government has no right to tell companies when they should be open or closed. However, they control when midnight is. Didier KO4BB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
I believe we had double daylight saving over here (UK) during WWII. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: 18 July 2011 5:17 PM To: a...@comcast.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
If you keep going farther from the equator, than it makes no sense after a while. Above the Artic Circle, when you get 24hrs of daylight, what is the need? And when you get no daylight in a day, should you wake up at sunrise? I just don't agree that the government has to step in and 'make sluggards wake up early'. What if the sluggards and drunks would honk their horns at 1am to get more people to party at the bars? :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:17 AM To: a...@comcast.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Hi Rob from memory it was referred to as Double Summer Time .looking at my very wet window we should be so lucky!! :-)) Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I believe we had double daylight saving over here (UK) during WWII. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: 18 July 2011 5:17 PM To: a...@comcast.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
I just don't see why we need to save daylight; don't we have enough already? Is that not part of the cause of the alleged global warming? And how does shifting the clock by an hour actually save any daylight? OK, so to get slightly more serious, the best argument pushed here in Ohio is that in the winter months, school aged kids aren't walking to school or waiting for the bus in the dark. In the summer months, it isn't an issue. Of course, DST isn't in effect in the winter months, so I still don't get it. And why do they keep extending the DST season? We only have ST between mid November to mid March now. It was once late April to early October. Someone somewhere is making some money off of this scam. Tom Holmes, N8ZM Tipp City, OH EM79 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jose Camara Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 1:05 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'; a...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC If you keep going farther from the equator, than it makes no sense after a while. Above the Artic Circle, when you get 24hrs of daylight, what is the need? And when you get no daylight in a day, should you wake up at sunrise? I just don't agree that the government has to step in and 'make sluggards wake up early'. What if the sluggards and drunks would honk their horns at 1am to get more people to party at the bars? :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:17 AM To: a...@comcast.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Hi Alan, I de-anglicised it for our cousins across the water! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alan Melia Sent: 18 July 2011 6:15 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Hi Rob from memory it was referred to as Double Summer Time .looking at my very wet window we should be so lucky!! :-)) Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I believe we had double daylight saving over here (UK) during WWII. Rob K -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: 18 July 2011 5:17 PM To: a...@comcast.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net wrote: If advancing the clocks one hour saves so much daylight, why not advance the clocks by two hours to save even more? The amount of time to move the clock depends on how far north you live. Days being even longer at high latitudes. I think one hour is a compromise. There have been proposals to do what they call double daylight saving time -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 18 Jul 2011, at 05:23 , Tony Finch wrote: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. If you want to know why your suggestion doesn't work, David Prerau has collected many many examples. http://www.seizethedaylight.com/ Yet most of the people on the planet live in a place where DST is not observed now, and that includes people living as far north as 65 degrees latitude and as far south as 55 degrees. Should they all be told this doesn't work? Dennis Ferguson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On Jul 18, 2011, at 3:02 PM, Tom Holmes wrote: Someone somewhere is making some money off of this [DST] scam. From an NPR interview with Michael Downing, author of Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7779869 Mr. DOWNING: Well, because when we have an hour of sunlight after work, Americans tend to go shopping. The first and most persistent lobby for Daylight Saving in this country was the Chamber of Commerce, because they understood that if their department stores were lit up, people would be tempted by them. In 1986, Congress gave us an extra month of Daylight Saving Time. That's when we went from six to seven months, which is the period we've been living with recently. In that congressional hearings, the golf industry alone - these are the industry estimates - told Congress one additional month of daylight saving was worth $200 million in additional sales of golf clubs and greens fees. The barbecue industry said it was worth $100 million in additional sales of grills and charcoal briquettes. BLOCK: This may be kind of an urban legend, but I thought I had heard that one of the backers behind extending Daylight Saving Time into the beginning of November was the candy industry, and it all had to do with Halloween. Mr. DOWNING: This is no kind of legend. This is the truth. For 25 years, candy-makers have wanted to get trick-or-treat covered by Daylight Saving, figuring that if children have an extra hour of daylight, they'll collect more candy. In fact, they went so far during the 1985 hearings on Daylight Saving as to put candy pumpkins on the seat of every senator, hoping to win a little favor. Best regards, -Steve -- Steve Byan steveb...@me.com Littleton, MA 01460 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Call your local politician ? DST is a national matter, so all you have to do is convince your politicians[1]. Actually, in most countries not a national matter... but more typically a local (state/province/canton/prefecture) political matter. For example there are US States that don't observe daylight savings time (a good example is Arizona... they just don't need more daytime hours there apparently), as there are in Australia. Peter K1PGV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 17/07/11 16:21, Peter G. Viscarola wrote: Call your local politician ? DST is a national matter, so all you have to do is convince your politicians[1]. Actually, in most countries not a national matter... but more typically a local (state/province/canton/prefecture) political matter. For example there are US States that don't observe daylight savings time (a good example is Arizona... they just don't need more daytime hours there apparently), as there are in Australia. USA is not very representative in this respect. Here in Europe, except for Russia and Denmark it is vairly easy to bring in the county in one time-zone and that's why its been done on govrement level. Mainland Denmark (which in itself is a lot of islands) is one time-zone, but Greenland and Færø-islands don't fit that time. Actually, if you look at the map some countries is skewed in the time compared to their geographical position. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In Australia, Queensland is the only state that does not use daylight savings time. There reasons, it upsets the cows feeding routine Maybe we can harness this cow feeding routine instead of an OCXO? On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 17/07/11 16:21, Peter G. Viscarola wrote: Call your local politician ? DST is a national matter, so all you have to do is convince your politicians[1]. Actually, in most countries not a national matter... but more typically a local (state/province/canton/prefecture) political matter. For example there are US States that don't observe daylight savings time (a good example is Arizona... they just don't need more daytime hours there apparently), as there are in Australia. USA is not very representative in this respect. Here in Europe, except for Russia and Denmark it is vairly easy to bring in the county in one time-zone and that's why its been done on govrement level. Mainland Denmark (which in itself is a lot of islands) is one time-zone, but Greenland and Færø-islands don't fit that time. Actually, if you look at the map some countries is skewed in the time compared to their geographical position. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Daylight savings seems to be a bit archaic especially with modern flexible working practices. Why not fit the working day around the clock seasons, rather than try to correct things twice a year? Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer Sent: 15 July 2011 5:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Sorry for the prior email with no text. If the world could agree on the dates when DST adjustments are applied (if individual countries, states etc elect to make DST adjustments) and make any needed leap second adjustments at the same time that would be a positive step IMHO. - Original Message From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 9:18:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Far out. This discussion is so not time-nuts. I'm going to vent here. I'll do my best to be polite. Daylight savings is more beneficial the further from the equator you go. I love it and would never want it to go. As pointed out, this is a local issue. Go lobby your local representative. Metric time? FFS. The US can't even talk SI with rest of the world yet - even though their stupid measures are defined in terms of SI - as they have been for decades. So don't even think about it. Change the definition of the second?? Just stop right now. Go and learn what the effects of changing the most accurately measured thing we have before making silly comments like that!!! Ok, that's all sorted, let's get to the point on leap seconds. I can see both sides I really can. Making big changes years in the future is bad. Remember Y2K? I don't like the idea of letting DUT1 getting big. But it could be bigger than it is now without huge issues. I must admit Poul-Henning's idea of a 20 year advance notice is the best idea I've heard so far. But I'd recommend 10 years. A good metric number. Don't get hung up on noon occurring at 12:00 - the equation of time blows that right out. I think stopping leap seconds is bad, and having them regularly is good for practice - no Y2K problems. So again, 10 years advance notice is a really nice solution. /rant On Saturday, 16 July 2011, Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com wrote: Daylight savings seems to be a bit archaic especially with modern flexible working practices. Why not fit the working day around the clock seasons, rather than try to correct things twice a year? Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer Sent: 15 July 2011 5:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Sorry for the prior email with no text. If the world could agree on the dates when DST adjustments are applied (if individual countries, states etc elect to make DST adjustments) and make any needed leap second adjustments at the same time that would be a positive step IMHO. - Original Message From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 9:18:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message 002001cc43c0$8dab3010$a9019030$@timing-consultants.com, Rob Kimbe rley writes: Daylight savings seems to be a bit archaic especially with modern flexible working practices. Why not fit the working day around the clock seasons, rather than try to correct things twice a year? Call your local politician ? DST is a national matter, so all you have to do is convince your politicians[1]. [1] ... That daylight savings time is an terrorist socialist muslim plan to disrupt the precisous bodily fluids of real americans and they will be gone before you know it. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Wouldn't trust any politician! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: 16 July 2011 6:04 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC In message 002001cc43c0$8dab3010$a9019030$@timing-consultants.com, Rob Kimbe rley writes: Daylight savings seems to be a bit archaic especially with modern flexible working practices. Why not fit the working day around the clock seasons, rather than try to correct things twice a year? Call your local politician ? DST is a national matter, so all you have to do is convince your politicians[1]. [1] ... That daylight savings time is an terrorist socialist muslim plan to disrupt the precisous bodily fluids of real americans and they will be gone before you know it. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Jim: time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics Until there is a more specific charter listing what one can post about or not, or elected people with horned hats to judge what is noise and what is signal, DST discussion should be perfectly acceptable. It is a related topic. Even the jokes about people jumping on chairs, farting always west, and it's effects on UTC are a small contribution, as others actually show calculations that dismiss it before it becomes the next twitter mob project... Don't forget the -nuts part of the list! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:53 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Far out. This discussion is so not time-nuts. I'm going to vent here. I'll do my best to be polite. Daylight savings is more beneficial the further from the equator you go. I love it and would never want it to go. As pointed out, this is a local issue. Go lobby your local representative. Metric time? FFS. The US can't even talk SI with rest of the world yet - even though their stupid measures are defined in terms of SI - as they have been for decades. So don't even think about it. Change the definition of the second?? Just stop right now. Go and learn what the effects of changing the most accurately measured thing we have before making silly comments like that!!! Ok, that's all sorted, let's get to the point on leap seconds. I can see both sides I really can. Making big changes years in the future is bad. Remember Y2K? I don't like the idea of letting DUT1 getting big. But it could be bigger than it is now without huge issues. I must admit Poul-Henning's idea of a 20 year advance notice is the best idea I've heard so far. But I'd recommend 10 years. A good metric number. Don't get hung up on noon occurring at 12:00 - the equation of time blows that right out. I think stopping leap seconds is bad, and having them regularly is good for practice - no Y2K problems. So again, 10 years advance notice is a really nice solution. /rant On Saturday, 16 July 2011, Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com wrote: Daylight savings seems to be a bit archaic especially with modern flexible working practices. Why not fit the working day around the clock seasons, rather than try to correct things twice a year? Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer Sent: 15 July 2011 5:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Sorry for the prior email with no text. If the world could agree on the dates when DST adjustments are applied (if individual countries, states etc elect to make DST adjustments) and make any needed leap second adjustments at the same time that would be a positive step IMHO. - Original Message From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 9:18:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Antonio, and other posters, The issue of leap seconds is covered in the LEAPSECS mailing list rather than time-nuts. You can find the archives at: http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs Please move your well thought out questions or comments to that list. Thanks, /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Le 15/07/2011 07:57, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : snip Everybody but the time-lords have always been told to stay away from TAI in the strongest possible terms by said time-lords, who again and told the world to use UTC. The time lords are not completely deaf. For more than 10 years there has been debate about whether or not to revert to a TAI scale, but consensus has never been obtained. There are three requirements for time transmission that the current system supports in recommendation ITU-R TF.460-6 which the americans are trying to vote out. 1. SI second ticks 2. corrections to UTC for earth rotation , DUT1, so that UT1 can be calculated. 3. A civil time scale, UTC which is a descendant of GMT and roughly measures the mean solar day. One or other , if not both, figure in all the legal codes of the planet. The definition of 3 ensures that there are 86400 +/-1 ticks per mean solar day . This is quite useful as my watch and just about everyone else's measures days in 86400 units . The proposed change to ITU-R TF.460-6 provides 1 but removes 2 and 3. Sheer folly to my mind. The current recommendation is good for another 2-300 years . So in my humble opinion, the proposition for change should be rejected until consensus be achieved and that ALL three above requirements are met. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message 4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Le 15/07/2011 10:33, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : In message4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 Thanks for your ref. I am aware of the shortcomings of the present scheme and am not particularly pro leap second. It seems to me that the right questions are not being addressed and certainly the proposition for change as expressed and to be voted on in 2012 is premature. The US are just wanting leap seconds abolished without proposing alternative schemes covering all the requirements of time signal users.Once they have been defined , recommendations can be considered. Till then , fix the bugs. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. No more leap seconds just leap atomic division factor. Unless you can try and convince the world that all this hours, minutes and seconds thing will have to change and some new system for defining the day with the granularity of some arbitrarily chosen factor of atomic time (which was in line with the earth's rotation 50 years ago or so) is worked out. The day that the second was defined in an atomic form has always meant that it bears little relationship to the idea of a second that was held before it and is used in the real world of wall clock time now. Yes, I'm well aware that this causes major impracticalities for technical and scientific users but the current system of linking atomic time to wall time obviously has its problems. Maybe that original linkage decision was a bad idea and the definition of the wall clock second should go back to the astronomers. Steve On 15 July 2011 21:36, cook michael michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2011 10:33, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : In message4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 Thanks for your ref. I am aware of the shortcomings of the present scheme and am not particularly pro leap second. It seems to me that the right questions are not being addressed and certainly the proposition for change as expressed and to be voted on in 2012 is premature. The US are just wanting leap seconds abolished without proposing alternative schemes covering all the requirements of time signal users. Once they have been defined , recommendations can be considered. Till then , fix the bugs. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Steve: The scientific community needs a well defined second, physically reproducible and stable. Something like the old meter platinum bar. In fact, look at meter in Wikipedia, very similar issues, with Earth as a basis for the reference at some point. Current definition is based on length traveled by light in vacuum in one second. Right there - making the second depend on Earth rotation, changing it daily, hourly to follow the capricious wobbly Earth would change the meter length just as often. Basically 'turns back the clock' hundreds of years in accuracy, stability of the second. Now the second definition relates to frequency accuracy, there is no phase information. Nothing like a femtosecond 'ball drop' somewhere that would define an absolute time. Once the second became atomic, the Earth variations and slowdown drift (ultimately it would show the same side to the Sun like the Moon does to Earth, in a few buzillion years - astro-nuts enlighten me) become an issue, as we don't want our buzillionth generation descendants seeing sunrise at 3am (although they would get off work at 2pm!). Once the Earth day equals the Earth year, what do we do? Let's plan ahead for the UTC at that point. Nice wall calendars, January First only! And it is a Holiday! -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 3:18 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. No more leap seconds just leap atomic division factor. Unless you can try and convince the world that all this hours, minutes and seconds thing will have to change and some new system for defining the day with the granularity of some arbitrarily chosen factor of atomic time (which was in line with the earth's rotation 50 years ago or so) is worked out. The day that the second was defined in an atomic form has always meant that it bears little relationship to the idea of a second that was held before it and is used in the real world of wall clock time now. Yes, I'm well aware that this causes major impracticalities for technical and scientific users but the current system of linking atomic time to wall time obviously has its problems. Maybe that original linkage decision was a bad idea and the definition of the wall clock second should go back to the astronomers. Steve On 15 July 2011 21:36, cook michael michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2011 10:33, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : In message4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 Thanks for your ref. I am aware of the shortcomings of the present scheme and am not particularly pro leap second. It seems to me that the right questions are not being addressed and certainly the proposition for change as expressed and to be voted on in 2012 is premature. The US are just wanting leap seconds abolished without proposing alternative schemes covering all the requirements of time signal users. Once they have been defined , recommendations can be considered. Till then , fix the bugs. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message cactjvnxhfq79n3fvprs4xyen4ouc6w7q9ih1u2kisfg9d_f...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. We tried that in the 1960-ies, and it didn't work for anybody at all. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 15 July 2011 22:59, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cactjvnxhfq79n3fvprs4xyen4ouc6w7q9ih1u2kisfg9d_f...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. We tried that in the 1960-ies, and it didn't work for anybody at all. Well, I really said that tongue in cheek just to stir up a hornets nest as I know it was not practical. The scientific community (and some industrial processes) do need a precisely defined, and reproducible, UNIT of time, that's a given. This does not mean that this atomic standard is the magic bullet for everything related to time though. In fact I'd go as far as to say that atomic time has nothing to do with real time and should never have been coupled with it in the first place. For most of the world, the correct measure of a second is 1/86,400 or the current rotation of this planet as that is the only thing that makes sense and keeps correlation over all of time. The idea of having to add a leap second every month in 2,500 years time, assuming we still exist then, seems quite ludicrous, I agree with you entirely, but the idea of the day gradually drifting out of sync with our artificial time is also not workable. I saw a comment to your article which suggested that we ditch leap seconds and leave the problem to future generations, seems an anathema to me. Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Jose, I couldn't agree with you more and embedded in my post was this conflict with the need to have a precise, reproducible, standard but that does not mean that this standard fits the need for wall time, with all its wobbliness and drift. When I look at time clocks they are divided into 24 hours, 60 minutes and 60 seconds. There is no, well a minute could be 59 or 60 or 61 seconds in an attempt to impose atomic time to solar time. This is like trying to impose structure on chaos. It is a very difficult problem that seems to have no solution so perhaps we should not try to impose a solution on it and therefore detach the two. As for turning back the clock hundreds of years, that is hardly the case as today's astronomers need a more accurate time than atomic time, which could be off by significant parts of a second compared to solar time, and they work out their correct time through published offsets. So what is the answer to all this, ditch the embarrassment for now and leave it to our buzillionth generation descendants to sort out. What applications do we need time correct to the femtosecond, certainly not for most of what goes on in the world, but it is vitally important for other applications, although it's not H:M:S that are not the case here, it's a precise period measurement that is required. Cheers, Steve On 15 July 2011 22:54, Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com wrote: Steve: The scientific community needs a well defined second, physically reproducible and stable. Something like the old meter platinum bar. In fact, look at meter in Wikipedia, very similar issues, with Earth as a basis for the reference at some point. Current definition is based on length traveled by light in vacuum in one second. Right there - making the second depend on Earth rotation, changing it daily, hourly to follow the capricious wobbly Earth would change the meter length just as often. Basically 'turns back the clock' hundreds of years in accuracy, stability of the second. Now the second definition relates to frequency accuracy, there is no phase information. Nothing like a femtosecond 'ball drop' somewhere that would define an absolute time. Once the second became atomic, the Earth variations and slowdown drift (ultimately it would show the same side to the Sun like the Moon does to Earth, in a few buzillion years - astro-nuts enlighten me) become an issue, as we don't want our buzillionth generation descendants seeing sunrise at 3am (although they would get off work at 2pm!). Once the Earth day equals the Earth year, what do we do? Let's plan ahead for the UTC at that point. Nice wall calendars, January First only! And it is a Holiday! -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 3:18 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. No more leap seconds just leap atomic division factor. Unless you can try and convince the world that all this hours, minutes and seconds thing will have to change and some new system for defining the day with the granularity of some arbitrarily chosen factor of atomic time (which was in line with the earth's rotation 50 years ago or so) is worked out. The day that the second was defined in an atomic form has always meant that it bears little relationship to the idea of a second that was held before it and is used in the real world of wall clock time now. Yes, I'm well aware that this causes major impracticalities for technical and scientific users but the current system of linking atomic time to wall time obviously has its problems. Maybe that original linkage decision was a bad idea and the definition of the wall clock second should go back to the astronomers. Steve On 15 July 2011 21:36, cook michael michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2011 10:33, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : In message4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 Thanks for your ref. I am aware of the shortcomings of the present scheme and am not particularly pro leap second. It seems to me that the right questions are not being addressed and certainly the proposition for change as expressed and to be voted on in 2012 is premature. The US are just wanting leap seconds abolished without proposing alternative schemes covering all the requirements of time signal users. Once they have been defined , recommendations can be considered
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Hi Poul-Henning, Nice article. One thing stands out to me, though: How do you propose knowing 20 years in advance the schedule of leap seconds? Or, are you proposing that we just collect all seconds that may occur in 20 years, and dump them into a single correction, one that may be multi-second? I notice that this subject seems to make you a little grumpier than the Poul-Henning I am used to. I hope I am not treading on ground you feel already is too well covered. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4e1ffa88.9050...@sfr.fr, cook michael writes: Michael, there are a few details you overlook, and rather than repeat myself, I'll point you at an article I wrote for Queue and Communications of The ACM, trying to lay out the bits: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 7/15/11 3:17 AM, Steve Rooke wrote: Well, instead of leap seconds which seem to be the biggest bug bear for everyone, keep the second as 1/86,400 of the earths current rotation and adjust the factor used in the calculation of atomic time on a regular basis. No more leap seconds just leap atomic division factor. Unless you can try and convince the world that all this hours, minutes and seconds thing will have to change and some new system for defining the day with the granularity of some arbitrarily chosen factor of atomic time (which was in line with the earth's rotation 50 years ago or so) is worked out. The day that the second was defined in an atomic form has always meant that it bears little relationship to the idea of a second that was held before it and is used in the real world of wall clock time now. why stay with the ridiculous base 60 system inherited from the Babylonians? Why not decimalize it. Oh wait, that was tried a few hundred years ago, but perhaps the time is now right? If the UK can decimalize pounds, shillings, and pence, perhaps it is time to bow to the decimal hegemony. As I write this at Sextidi 26 Messiador an CCXIX a 5:63:49 t.m.P. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message 4e203b60.6080...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: Nice article. One thing stands out to me, though: How do you propose knowing 20 years in advance the schedule of leap seconds? That is for the geophysical community to figure out. They still get to decide when leap seconds happen, only they have to tell the rest of us 20 years in advance instead of 6 months in advance. How well they can do this (ie: how small can they keep DUT1) depends on the quality of their science (and/or coin-flips) I notice that this subject seems to make you a little grumpier than the Poul-Henning I am used to. I hope I am not treading on ground you feel already is too well covered. It is very well covered on the leapsecs list, so I sort of think we should avoid rehashing all the same arguments and facts on this list also. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4e203b60.6080...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: Nice article. One thing stands out to me, though: How do you propose knowing 20 years in advance the schedule of leap seconds? That is for the geophysical community to figure out. They still get to decide when leap seconds happen, only they have to tell the rest of us 20 years in advance instead of 6 months in advance. How well they can do this (ie: how small can they keep DUT1) depends on the quality of their science (and/or coin-flips) I can see a 20 year prediction being seriously fraught with error. I tend to think of the machine clock as being something that should keep ticking along one SI second to the next, keeping count of the seconds since some epoch. I am not at all happy with the idea of having it magically stall, or stutter. That's something for some library function to keep track of after the fact. Unfortunately, the leapsecs list never made the threshold of my free time allocator. I subscribed for a while, but found it rife with bickering that seemed intractable. Everyone of the reasons for, or against, the leapsecond was valid, and incompatible. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 16 July 2011 01:22, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 7/15/11 3:17 AM, Steve Rooke wrote: why stay with the ridiculous base 60 system inherited from the Babylonians? Why not decimalize it. Oh wait, that was tried a few hundred years ago, but perhaps the time is now right? If the UK can decimalize pounds, shillings, and pence, perhaps it is time to bow to the decimal hegemony. I didn't see any smilies but it's a good point, although trying to get the world to swallow that pill when some countries are using the lunisolar calendar, which actually makes a lot of sense when you listen to them but to us it seems to hark back to the dark ages. So do you propose 10 hours a day with 100 minutes and 100 seconds... Shame we could not decimalise the year as well, stupid earth taking 365 and a bit days to complete an orbit. No, let's drop the whole day thing, we have electric light now so day and night no longer matter, our decimal days could fit with a decimal year. And back on earth, we have coped for centuries with the existing system without the need of femto-second accuracy of the time. Yes, we need precise measurement of a period standard and therefore a frequency standard but the two are not the same thing or have the same needs. Steve As I write this at Sextidi 26 Messiador an CCXIX a 5:63:49 t.m.P. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 16 July 2011 02:20, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 4e2046db.3040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: I can see a 20 year prediction being seriously fraught with error. Not really, starting out with just one leap second every 18 months gets you pretty good first approximation. DUT1 would probably still be less than 3 seconds. Sorry to barge in here but I thought the leap second need was about a two year thing so wouldn't that mean a ten second jump at the twenty year mark. Steve I am not at all happy with the idea of having it magically stall, or stutter. That's something for some library function to keep track of after the fact. That is exactly my point: With 6 months notice, getting the libraries updated using regular software update channels is not feasible. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4e2046db.3040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: I can see a 20 year prediction being seriously fraught with error. Not really, starting out with just one leap second every 18 months gets you pretty good first approximation. DUT1 would probably still be less than 3 seconds. I would be happy with a solution that didn't shift my local noon by more than what the time-zones do already... Now if we could just do away with daylight savings time. I am not at all happy with the idea of having it magically stall, or stutter. That's something for some library function to keep track of after the fact. That is exactly my point: With 6 months notice, getting the libraries updated using regular software update channels is not feasible. We are in complete agreement on that! -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message cactjvnyewpksnjbt3dsf5kdvtq0jpwxm6x2ruxdxtcrp3jc...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Sorry to barge in here but I thought the leap second need was about a two year thing so wouldn't that mean a ten second jump at the twenty year mark. No. schedule them 20 years in advance is not the same as schedule once every 20 seconds. If the time-lords want a leap second 2031-12-31, the have to say so before before 2011-12-31, if they want one 2032-06-30, they have to say so before 2012-06-30, etc. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 16 July 2011 02:51, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cactjvnyewpksnjbt3dsf5kdvtq0jpwxm6x2ruxdxtcrp3jc...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Sorry to barge in here but I thought the leap second need was about a two year thing so wouldn't that mean a ten second jump at the twenty year mark. No. schedule them 20 years in advance is not the same as schedule once every 20 seconds. Ah! I get you. Not 10 leap seconds at 20 year intervals, just an almanac to indicate when they will be for up to 20 years in advance. I guess that means they could take a bye for any scheduled event that is not required, as in the 7 year period without one. Steve If the time-lords want a leap second 2031-12-31, the have to say so before before 2011-12-31, if they want one 2032-06-30, they have to say so before 2012-06-30, etc. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message cactjvny8h2ethr_m6dquxhabhjb9nfgyauhjcn1bf-umh+k...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Ah! I get you. Not 10 leap seconds at 20 year intervals, just an almanac to indicate when they will be for up to 20 years in advance. I guess that means they could take a bye for any scheduled event that is not required, as in the 7 year period without one. Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 16 July 2011 03:01, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cactjvny8h2ethr_m6dquxhabhjb9nfgyauhjcn1bf-umh+k...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Ah! I get you. Not 10 leap seconds at 20 year intervals, just an almanac to indicate when they will be for up to 20 years in advance. I guess that means they could take a bye for any scheduled event that is not required, as in the 7 year period without one. Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 23:09, Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 July 2011 03:01, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cactjvny8h2ethr_m6dquxhabhjb9nfgyauhjcn1bf-umh+k...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Ah! I get you. Not 10 leap seconds at 20 year intervals, just an almanac to indicate when they will be for up to 20 years in advance. I guess that means they could take a bye for any scheduled event that is not required, as in the 7 year period without one. Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? Then they are exiled from Gallifrey, and fed to the Daleks. Seriously, if we are announcing 20 years in advance, we accept that DUT may be as large as 4 or 5 secs. In which case, having an extra one (or not having one when required) will not materially change the _long-term_ tracking. Within a few years, the effect should lessen. Although I would rather that leap secs stay, and DUT is kept small, if we are not changing the definition of UTC, but loosening the strictness of the tracking in the short-term, this may be a good compromise. PHK, in your proposal, the long term stability of low, bounded DUT would be guaranteed? -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message cahzk5wcrvny8jv2xswycnbvq3wxmra_yezofcjpufz9nfdk...@mail.gmail.com , Sanjeev Gupta writes: PHK, in your proposal, the long term stability of low, bounded DUT would be guaranteed? Only guaranteed in the sense that I tacitly presume the geophysicisists will schedule leap seconds with care, there is no numerical guarantees involved, other than we will know leap seconds 20 years in advance. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message 002101cc430a$c71cd030$55567090$@com, Jose Camara writes: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? Feel free to: That is under the control of your national government and you can use that for whatever you want. Leap-seconds on the other hand are global and controlled by only the thinnest laquer of democratic control, so that is in no way comparable. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
I agree on DST, I was very disappointed when Indiana joined the lemmings. I'd take it one more step, and eliminate time zones. Everyone operates on UTC(x) So you get to work at 2100, and work till 0500.. I know my mom is up till 0700. No matter where you are, you know what time it is, and no more silliness. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
- Original Message From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 9:18:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Sorry for the prior email with no text. If the world could agree on the dates when DST adjustments are applied (if individual countries, states etc elect to make DST adjustments) and make any needed leap second adjustments at the same time that would be a positive step IMHO. - Original Message From: Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 9:18:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? If there is any benefit to it, just change business operating hours instead. In summer you work 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and we don't have to go around the house, car, etc. changing clocks. And Congress doesn't have to change the dates the VCRs were programmed to do automatically, leaving time for them to take care of something more important... I used to have pet tortoises that would always ignore DST, looking for their food one hour earlier... -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:24 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC On 16 July 2011 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message CACTjVNynr5Vhrj=e+gfungebpa_u8__26bhjamk2nv6uxgi...@mail.gmail.com , Steve Rooke writes: Nope, once they have scheduled a leap-second, it happens. And if it's not needed? It is needed, otherwise they would not have scheduled it. So, your saying they will predict all the wobbling, drift, internal earth changes, etc and do this with any accuracy 20 years in advance, when we have already seen significant variations in this. If they predict wrong all that happens is that DUT1 wanders a bit more around and they will have to catch up with it over the next couple of decades. Given that straight-jacket, I suggest they schedule one every year then they can add and subtract them willy nilly. Yes, New Years Day, worldwide let's change the clock regardless. It would make it much more fun for all of us to watch what happens. Yes, I'm game for that, great idea. Cheers, Steve -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
As long as you are going to re-educate everyone on Earth to use your new system why not at the same time convert to metric time? The unit of time should be the day (with length averaged over say, 1,000 years). But for most uses people would think in terms of milli-days or mD. I hinted at the problem with any big change when I said re-educate everyone on Earth. I think we are stuck with what we have. On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:28 AM, David VanHorn d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com wrote: I agree on DST, I was very disappointed when Indiana joined the lemmings. I'd take it one more step, and eliminate time zones. Everyone operates on UTC(x) So you get to work at 2100, and work till 0500.. I know my mom is up till 0700. No matter where you are, you know what time it is, and no more silliness. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
On 07/15/11 05:18 PM, Jose Camara wrote: I think before adding to the fire of UTC1, UTC7 etc. why not just abolish this silliness called Daylight Savings Time? I would agree with that. I play chess on a chess server The server runs at EST. Some team games are scheduled and the organisers insist on using the server time. Normally my ofset from the server is 4 hours, but for a couple of weeks it is 5 hours, as the UK and US implement DST on different days. I've suggested the server switch to using GMT or UTC (same thing for the practicalities of organising a chess game). The orgainsers tell me most Americans don't understand GMT or UTC. Since more Americans play on the server than anyone else, we have to suffer the consequences. I really fail to see what DST achieves. People will do jobs at a time appropriate for doing them. DST is just one big pain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Mark, If the planet were not inclined 23 degrees this might make sense. But it turns out daylight times differ by latitude and season and hemisphere. So it is not surprising that nations, or even states within large nations, assume the right to set their own rules of local time. /tvb On Jul 15, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Mark Spencer mspencer12...@yahoo.ca wrote: Sorry for the prior email with no text. If the world could agree on the dates when DST adjustments are applied (if individual countries, states etc elect to make DST adjustments) and make any needed leap second adjustments at the same time that would be a positive step IMHO. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] The future of UTC
Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that this matter has not yet been discussed among time-nuts: http://futureofutc.org From the above website: A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. The proposal will halt the contribution of so-called leap seconds to UTC after 2017, and will also terminate the requirement that time services transmit the difference between UT1 and UTC. If approved, UTC would no longer be useful as a type of Universal Time for most technical applications. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
With Bulletin C nr 42, a link to a questionnarie about it is added at the end (and I think that leap seconds and its convenience or not has been discussed lots of times in the list :) From Bulletin C 42: IMPORTANT: After years of discussions, a proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC will come to a conclusive vote in January 2012 at the ITU-R in Geneva. This proposal would halt the intercalary adjustments known as leap seconds that maintain UTC as a form of Universal Time. The Earth Orientation Center of the IERS organizes a survey online with the objective to find out the strength of opinion for maintaining or changing the present system. Link to the questionnaire: http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=questionnaire Your response is appreciated before 30 August 2011 El 15/07/2011 00:51, iov...@inwind.it escribió: Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that this matter has not yet been discussed among time-nuts: http://futureofutc.org From the above website: A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. The proposal will halt the contribution of so-called leap seconds to UTC after 2017, and will also terminate the requirement that time services transmit the difference between UT1 and UTC. If approved, UTC would no longer be useful as a type of Universal Time for most technical applications. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Da: jherr...@hvsistemas.es Data: 15/07/2011 1.06 A: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC With Bulletin C nr 42, a link to a questionnarie about it is added at the end (and I think that leap seconds and its convenience or not has been discussed lots of times in the list :) From Bulletin C 42: IMPORTANT: After years of discussions, a proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC will come to a conclusive vote in January 2012 at the ITU-R in Geneva. Of course, I was referring to the conclusive vote. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
If they will not observe the leap seconds as the earth times calibration, it would become unusable in some areas of technology, and or earth time in itself, or I would think. When the first cesium clock was being built, it was to be calibrated, I guess one could say, by the astronomical second, which was calculated by the US Naval Observatory at that time. In other words, they used that astronomical second to determine the frequency of resonance of cesium. Since the two times don't run paralell due to the earths rotational differences, as of now, and compared to then, why would they not want to correct it? I would think it would screw everything up over years and years of time. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/15/2011 at 1:06 AM Javier Herrero wrote: With Bulletin C nr 42, a link to a questionnarie about it is added at the end (and I think that leap seconds and its convenience or not has been discussed lots of times in the list :) From Bulletin C 42: IMPORTANT: After years of discussions, a proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC will come to a conclusive vote in January 2012 at the ITU-R in Geneva. This proposal would halt the intercalary adjustments known as leap seconds that maintain UTC as a form of Universal Time. The Earth Orientation Center of the IERS organizes a survey online with the objective to find out the strength of opinion for maintaining or changing the present system. Link to the questionnaire: http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=questionnaire Your response is appreciated before 30 August 2011 El 15/07/2011 00:51, iov...@inwind.it escribió: Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that this matter has not yet been discussed among time-nuts: http://futureofutc.org From the above website: A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. The proposal will halt the contribution of so-called leap seconds to UTC after 2017, and will also terminate the requirement that time services transmit the difference between UT1 and UTC. If approved, UTC would no longer be useful as a type of Universal Time for most technical applications. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
At 06:51 PM 7/14/2011, iovane\@inwind\.it wrote... From the above website: A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. It's just sheer stupidity. A bunch of people who chose to use the UTC timescale when they should have chosen TAI now want to screw up UTC for those who use it as intended. If they don't want to deal with leap seconds, they should be using TAI or GPS time, not trying to redefine UTC to be a THIRD timescale unlinked from the heavens. And that applies to those who are forced into UTC through legal, or other requirements - work to get the law or requirements changed instead of changing the definition of UTC. It already is what it's supposed to be. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
Some vendors gps receivers cannot handle leapseconds properly, so they may be pushing to fix the problem this way ;) Sent From iPhone On Jul 14, 2011, at 15:51, iovane\@inwind\.it iov...@inwind.it wrote: Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that this matter has not yet been discussed among time-nuts: http://futureofutc.org From the above website: A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. The proposal will halt the contribution of so-called leap seconds to UTC after 2017, and will also terminate the requirement that time services transmit the difference between UT1 and UTC. If approved, UTC would no longer be useful as a type of Universal Time for most technical applications. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
In message 20110715004035.39b88a0...@locke.alientech.net, Mike S writes: At 06:51 PM 7/14/2011, iovane\@inwind\.it wrote... It's just sheer stupidity. A bunch of people who chose to use the UTC timescale when they should have chosen TAI [...] Yes, it is just sheer stupidity to postulate random arguments without doing proper research first: Everybody but the time-lords have always been told to stay away from TAI in the strongest possible terms by said time-lords, who again and told the world to use UTC. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
