[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

All the Ublox timing receivers output carrier phase and pseudorange data, so I 
suspect the F9T will also.   Heather can directly write a RINEX file that can 
be submitted to CSRS-PPP for a precise (say 100 mm)  position using L1 only 
data.   For L1/L2 data you have more online processing options available and 
should get maybe 10mm precision.

I'll probably have to improve the RINEX v3.xx writer in order to better handle 
L2C and L5 data...  also may need some code changes to handle the L2 data from 
the Ublox messages.

--

> I think an important question is if the T version still outputs
carrier phase on all the signals.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency standard

[paul swed]

Bob
The gpsdos will be far superior to the method you are currently using. I
will guess 100-1000 times better and higher. I took a quick look at EBAY
boy there are lot of them these days. We all have our favorites. Trimbles,
HPs... But what would help is understanding your need. What do you want to
accomplish.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 9:05 PM Bob Albert via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Please excuse my ignorance but I have been trying to improve on my
> frequency calibration.
> I have always used WWV but when I try to get really close in frequency,
> the beat and the fading are difficult to separate.
> Someone suggested I get a GPSDO to refine my 10 MHz.  I looked around and
> have seen a few, mostly in the $100 range, but before I shell out fot
> something I know little about I wonder if someone can give me a short
> tutorial or at least some advice on what I need to do.
> I live in Los Angeles so I imagine signals would be reasonably strong.
> But what hardware and software do I need?  I want 10 MHz to put into my
> counter or, at least, to calibrate the time base in the counter.  I prefer
> the latter, since that means I won't have to receive GPS signals in order
> to measure frequency.  Most of the time I don't need really accurate
> results.
> I could run an outdoor antenna if needed.  What receiver ought I look
> into, how much budget do I need, and all the other questions relating to
> this subject.
> And finally, how much frequency error can I expect?
> Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[MLewis]

On 25/01/2019 7:56 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

...

Doing a buy on the F9T might be easier if the part actually existed ….. Right 
now it is still in the
vaporware phase.

Bob
So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if 
there's features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?


And if they're listening, given the number of users in high-multipath 
environments due to limited skyviews, for firmware that is aimed at 
fixed-position usages, I'd like to see:

o   the min elevation have a matching max elevation
o   an azimuth range, starting to ending, to exclude sats not in that range
That should be just as fast in execution as the current min-elevation 
setting?


The ability to specify a sat to exclude from the solution would be very 
useful. Then at least we could monitor the list of sats, their elevation 
& azimuth and issue a command to exclude one that isn't in our skyview. 
Much neater to have the max elevation and azimuth range as above.


A much less common benefit of a specific sat exclusion is: it would 
allow us to exclude a sat when it's passing behind the known position of 
an interfering object in our skyview. I have two transformers on poles 
I'd love to remove.


Michael

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[time-nuts] TICC question

[Mark Sims]

Heather can run on Windows, macOS, Linux (including the RasPi) and FreeBSD.

Check the first post of this thread.  There is a link to the X11 version source 
code (also download the attached heather.txt file that contains the 
documentation).   That .zip file also has a pre-compiled binary for macOS.   
Check the readme.txt file for installation instructions (you need to set some 
permissions).  You will need to install the XQUARTZ package to run it on a mac.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/



> Ah, but I have a Mac, and Heather apparently isn't fond of that 
environment,
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[time-nuts] Frequency standard

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

Please excuse my ignorance but I have been trying to improve on my frequency 
calibration.
I have always used WWV but when I try to get really close in frequency, the 
beat and the fading are difficult to separate.
Someone suggested I get a GPSDO to refine my 10 MHz.  I looked around and have 
seen a few, mostly in the $100 range, but before I shell out fot something I 
know little about I wonder if someone can give me a short tutorial or at least 
some advice on what I need to do.
I live in Los Angeles so I imagine signals would be reasonably strong.  But 
what hardware and software do I need?  I want 10 MHz to put into my counter or, 
at least, to calibrate the time base in the counter.  I prefer the latter, 
since that means I won't have to receive GPS signals in order to measure 
frequency.  Most of the time I don't need really accurate results.
I could run an outdoor antenna if needed.  What receiver ought I look into, how 
much budget do I need, and all the other questions relating to this subject.
And finally, how much frequency error can I expect?
Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Prescalers ?

[Mark Spencer]

Thanks All.   I got lots of useful on and off list responses.   Much 
appreciated.

Mark Spencer


m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The F9P *will* do a survey in and fixed position. All of the parameters and 
commands are there. 

===

Doing a buy on the F9T might be easier if the part actually existed ….. Right 
now it is still in the 
vaporware phase.


Bob

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Dustin Marquess  wrote:
> 
> Agreed.  I'm sure the only difference between the two (if there really
> is any) is all in the firmware.  They seem to disable a lot of the
> nicer timing features in their non-timing modules.  Things like
> UBX-CFG-TMODE2 to survey-in and enable 1SV timing mode is a big one.
> 
> -Dustin
> 
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:00 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> In every other generation of uBlox parts, the “high end” modules (in this 
>> case the P and the T) pretty much did the same
>> thing with only minor differences. You do need precise position to get 
>> precise time. You also need precise time to get precise
>> position. That’s just the way GPS works and always has worked.
>> 
>> What gets us wrapped up are a bunch of specs that really are not very well 
>> qualified. Just what they mean be this or that
>> is rarely clear. Is a timing accuracy tracing it all the way back to BIH in 
>> Paris? Is a location accuracy doing the same sort
>> of thing? Even when they try to quantify a spec, that footnote may or may 
>> not be completely correct. A lot of these docs
>> still talk about the M8 parts when you drill down into them.
>> 
>> The only way to really know is to try some parts and see. That’s the way 
>> it’s always been with these modules from pretty
>> much all the vendors.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Mike Cook  wrote:
>>> 
>>> So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the 
>>> precise position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is 
>>> the F9T’s survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position 
>>> accuracy 2m ). Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers 
>>> to be sure of your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use 
>>> differential mode for best timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization 
>>> error correction mentioned, nor quantization error reporting though I 
>>> expect that is there, so for best accurracy that has to be added.  This 
>>> looks as though it could get expensive.
>>> 
>>> 
 Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
 
 This looks ideal to me:
 
 https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
 
 -Dustin
 
 On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
> 60ns for 99%.
> 
> I think I want an F9T :)
> 
>>> 
>>> In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the 
>>> term second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 
>>> 60)) of a mean solar day.
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TICC question

[jimlux]

On 1/25/19 3:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

You can send it a '#' to get back to the config menu.

Or use Lady Heather to control it and log data captures.  The 'P' keyboard menu 
has most of the config commands.  Heather (and the '#' command won't work with 
the original firmware release... you may need to upgrade the firmware.


Ah, but I have a Mac, and Heather apparently isn't fond of that 
environment, and while I can probably run her in parallels..


I'm using good old "screen" from the terminal prompt.




Are you sure you selected PERIOD mode...  it works fine here?


Very sure.. But I'll try it again..

if the weather is nice outside, I'll hook up a pair of GPS receiver 
modules, and a OCXO for the 10M




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Re: [time-nuts] Help with Novatel OEM6 external oscillator

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Skip,

On 2019-01-21 22:51, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello Time-Nuts,
Hopefully, this doesn't get too long.  What I desire to do is hook up
an external oscillator to a Novatel OEM6 series dual-band GPS
receiver.

Sounds easy. But, Novatel has four fixed (TCXO, OCXO, rubidium,
cesium) plus a USER specifications to model the external clock
performance.  Each model specifies three coefficients of the power law
spectral density (h-2, h-1, h0).  If you google 'novatel
externalclock' you can see the command. My question is, how do I
translate an oscillator ADEV plot into the three coefficients?


First of all, an excellent question!


I'm not an oscillator noise guru by any means (in fact, I'm probably a
noise dummy).  It took me a while to figure out that the number range
that Novatel is looking for is Allen Variance.  So taking the square
root of their model numbers would be Allen Deviation (hope this is
correct).


Actually, these numbers is really power-levels for the various noise-types.

You can however use Allan Deviation or Allan Variance to figure these 
out, so you got that part right.



   I believe the h-2 coefficient represents Random Walk FM
(Would this be slope=-2 on ADEV plot?), the h-1 would be Flicker FM
(slope =-1?), and the h0 coefficient would be White FM (slope =1 (or
is it 0)?).


If you look at this part of the Allan Deviation Wikipedia page, I 
prepared a handy table for you:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance#Power-law_noise

The White Frequency Modulation (WFM) is the h0 value and has the -1/2 
slope in the ADEV, i.e. 1/sqrt(tau).


The Flicker Frequency Modulation (FFM) is the h-1 value and has the flat 
slope in the ADEV.


The Random Walk Frequency Modulation (RWFM) is the h-2 value and has the 
+1/2 slope in the ADEV, i.e. sqrt(tau).


As you see there is a scaling factor from each h-value to the ADEV 
beyond the tau-one, and this is important.


So, if you estimate the line-slope, you need to compensate for tau and 
scale factor to estimate the power-level of that noise-type. You do this 
by dividing your ADEV reading with the scale-factor for that noise-type, 
and for the tau-value of the ADEV reading. Naturally you can do that on 
the AVAR values.



If I look at oscillator ADEV plots I often don't see anything as steep
as -2 slope.  Is this because it is below the lowest tau of the plot
and/or below the noise floor of the measurement system?
For the shortest tau you see the -1 slope of ADEV which is either the 
instruments resolution or the white phase modulation (WPM) noise. This 
represents the h2 level. The flicker phase (FPM) is the h1 level, but in 
ADEV we can't tell them apart in any practical manor, for that we need 
to go to MDEV which is what Dave Allan wants us to use, for that 
specific reason.

The real question is how to I translate a typical ADEV plot into the
three coefficients that the Novatel receiver wants to see.  An
illustrative example would be most helpful.  From looking at the
numbers in the Novatel documentation it appears that the h-2 number
represents short taus, h-1 intermediate taus, and h0 long taus.


The other way around. h-2 is the long-tau vs. h-1 and h0 which is 
shorter taus.


I'd love to show it more elaborative, but emailing of the night-train 
has it's limits.



For extra credit - Google ' Novatel clockmodel', and explain (simply)
what the covariance matrix is.  Again, if an illustrative example
could be shown it would be most helpful.

That's all for now before my brain explodes.  Thanks in advance for any help.


We can't have you do that. I hope we can help you to figure this out.

Maybe I can do better on my way back tomorrow.

Cheers,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bernd,

Thanks for the pointer, it may become handy.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of phase noise would it typically have 
and what PLL bandwidth?


I see (and already kind of knew) that you have some good oscillators, 
when it comes to phase-noise, but not too much is disclosed about the 
PLL module. I know the milage will vary with the reference signal, so 
hence the PLL bandwidth question.


Cheers,
Magnus


On 2019-01-25 19:41, Bernd Neubig wrote:

Hi all,

Sorry the URL given below was broken into two lines. In its total it must
read
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/

To download the data sheet directly, use this link:
https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc87559.pdf

Have fun
Bernd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von
Bernd Neubig
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 07:45
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators


At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.

And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly
different, Vectron would do it.>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) 

Vectron's

business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.


Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with
volumes in

the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.


Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary
customer

specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.


That's the limit of my experience.


Hi,

I am hesitating to drop the below  information, as it may be considered as
commercial.
However several models from several companies have been mentioned in this
thread, so I would just like to complete the lsiting.

I just want to point out, that AXTAL has a neat compact clean-up OCXO, model
AXPLO10.
You can find it at the AXTAL website under
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/
It is sold in small quantities from 1 piece and is reasonably priced and has
a lead time of 5-6 weeks.

Best regards
Bernd





-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Goldberg
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 23:16
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:01 PM jimlux  wrote:


At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.

And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly
different, Vectron would do it.




 From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

That's the limit of my experience.

Regards,

Mark
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:00 PM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
> Agreed.  I'm sure the only difference between the two (if there really
> is any) is all in the firmware.  They seem to disable a lot of the
> nicer timing features in their non-timing modules.  Things like
> UBX-CFG-TMODE2 to survey-in and enable 1SV timing mode is a big one.

I think an important question is if the T version still outputs
carrier phase on all the signals.

For fixed position timekeeping I like collecting a few days of data
from the receiver and a nearby CORS station (no problem in northern
California, I'm not sure if they're so easily found elsewhere!) and
post-processing using RTKLIB and the downloadable orbital data.

The apparent lack of support for online RTK in the F9T receivers
wouldn't be a problem for this, but getting the full set of
observables out would be. The UBLOX datasheets seem really thin.

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[time-nuts] TICC question

[Mark Sims]

You can send it a '#' to get back to the config menu.  

Or use Lady Heather to control it and log data captures.  The 'P' keyboard menu 
has most of the config commands.  Heather (and the '#' command won't work with 
the original firmware release... you may need to upgrade the firmware.

Are you sure you selected PERIOD mode...  it works fine here?   
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Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bernd,

Thanks for the pointer, it may become handy.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of phase noise would it typically have 
and what PLL bandwidth?


I see (and already kind of knew) that you have some good oscillators, 
when it comes to phase-noise, but not too much is disclosed about the 
PLL module. I know the milage will vary with the reference signal, so 
hence the PLL bandwidth question.


Cheers,
Magnus


On 2019-01-25 19:41, Bernd Neubig wrote:

Hi all,

Sorry the URL given below was broken into two lines. In its total it must
read
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/

To download the data sheet directly, use this link:
https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc87559.pdf

Have fun
Bernd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von
Bernd Neubig
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 07:45
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators


At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.

And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly
different, Vectron would do it.>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) 

Vectron's

business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.


Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with
volumes in

the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.


Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary
customer

specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.


That's the limit of my experience.


Hi,

I am hesitating to drop the below  information, as it may be considered as
commercial.
However several models from several companies have been mentioned in this
thread, so I would just like to complete the lsiting.

I just want to point out, that AXTAL has a neat compact clean-up OCXO, model
AXPLO10.
You can find it at the AXTAL website under
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/
It is sold in small quantities from 1 piece and is reasonably priced and has
a lead time of 5-6 weeks.

Best regards
Bernd





-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Goldberg
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 23:16
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:01 PM jimlux  wrote:


At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.

And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly
different, Vectron would do it.




 From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

That's the limit of my experience.

Regards,

Mark
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Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

[Mark Goldberg]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 3:05 PM Bernd Neubig  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sorry the URL given below was broken into two lines. In its total it must
> read
>
> https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
> orModules/
> 
>
> To download the data sheet directly, use this link:
> https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc87559.pdf
>
> Have fun
> Bernd
>
>
Thanks for this info. They have some very interesting parts that might meet
my needs also, especially ones with multiple outputs.

Do you have any idea of the pricing for a single quantity custom two
frequency output device? I could not find any pricing information on their
website.

Regards,

Mark
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Dustin Marquess]

Agreed.  I'm sure the only difference between the two (if there really
is any) is all in the firmware.  They seem to disable a lot of the
nicer timing features in their non-timing modules.  Things like
UBX-CFG-TMODE2 to survey-in and enable 1SV timing mode is a big one.

-Dustin

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:00 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> In every other generation of uBlox parts, the “high end” modules (in this 
> case the P and the T) pretty much did the same
> thing with only minor differences. You do need precise position to get 
> precise time. You also need precise time to get precise
> position. That’s just the way GPS works and always has worked.
>
> What gets us wrapped up are a bunch of specs that really are not very well 
> qualified. Just what they mean be this or that
> is rarely clear. Is a timing accuracy tracing it all the way back to BIH in 
> Paris? Is a location accuracy doing the same sort
> of thing? Even when they try to quantify a spec, that footnote may or may not 
> be completely correct. A lot of these docs
> still talk about the M8 parts when you drill down into them.
>
> The only way to really know is to try some parts and see. That’s the way it’s 
> always been with these modules from pretty
> much all the vendors.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> >
> > So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the 
> > precise position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is 
> > the F9T’s survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position 
> > accuracy 2m ). Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers 
> > to be sure of your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use 
> > differential mode for best timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization 
> > error correction mentioned, nor quantization error reporting though I 
> > expect that is there, so for best accurracy that has to be added.  This 
> > looks as though it could get expensive.
> >
> >
> >> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> >>
> >> This looks ideal to me:
> >>
> >> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> >>
> >> -Dustin
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
> >>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
> >>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
> >>> 60ns for 99%.
> >>>
> >>> I think I want an F9T :)
> >>>
> >
> > In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the 
> > term second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 
> > 60)) of a mean solar day.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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[time-nuts] TICC question

[jimlux]

I've got my TICC here

10MHz from a 3325 internal reference
ChA driven from a 1 Hz sine wave from the 3325
In time stamp (T) mode I get this:

3.856748610623 chA
4.856490834562 chA
5.856228782747 chA
6.856429385854 chA
7.856145770694 chA
8.855822275902 chA
9.856745141437 chA
10.856484310506 chA



I set Period mode, but I get this output:
4.503875384768 chA
5.502390968830 chA
6.503249942034 chA
7.502920748366 chA
8.503188897314 chA
9.502843426396 chA
10.503032636176 chA
11.502797035900 chA
12.503132531993 chA
13.502836107761 chA

I kind of would expected numbers around 1.


Also, is there some character I can send while measuring to put it back 
into the config screen, or do I have to reset?


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Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

[Bernd Neubig]

Hi all,

Sorry the URL given below was broken into two lines. In its total it must
read
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/

To download the data sheet directly, use this link:
https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc87559.pdf

Have fun
Bernd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von
Bernd Neubig
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Januar 2019 07:45
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

>> At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.
>>
>> And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly 
>> different, Vectron would do it.>
>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) 
>Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

>Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with 
>volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

>Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary 
>customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

>That's the limit of my experience.


Hi,

I am hesitating to drop the below  information, as it may be considered as
commercial.
However several models from several companies have been mentioned in this
thread, so I would just like to complete the lsiting.

I just want to point out, that AXTAL has a neat compact clean-up OCXO, model
AXPLO10.
You can find it at the AXTAL website under
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/
It is sold in small quantities from 1 piece and is reasonably priced and has
a lead time of 5-6 weeks.

Best regards
Bernd





-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Goldberg
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 23:16
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:01 PM jimlux  wrote:

>
> At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.
>
> And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly 
> different, Vectron would do it.
>
>
>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

That's the limit of my experience.

Regards,

Mark
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[David J Taylor via time-nuts]

This looks ideal to me:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf

-Dustin
==

A candidate for a group buy?

David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Chris Burford]

Another aspect of this is what do you consider "good enough"? I've used my 
Neo-M8T-0 receiver for a positional fix down to about 4cm with the use of a 
CORS facility at 5.6km distance.

The F9x series would probably narrow this range considerably, but again, what 
is good enough? It will be interesting to hear the results of these two new 
units from ublox once they get in to the hands of more consumers.

Chris

 Mike Cook  wrote: 
> So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
> position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
> survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
> Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of 
> your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best 
> timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, 
> nor quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
> accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.


> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> 
> This looks ideal to me:
> 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> 
> -Dustin
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>> 60ns for 99%.
>> 
>> I think I want an F9T :)
>> 

In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
mean solar day.


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

In every other generation of uBlox parts, the “high end” modules (in this case 
the P and the T) pretty much did the same 
thing with only minor differences. You do need precise position to get precise 
time. You also need precise time to get precise
position. That’s just the way GPS works and always has worked. 

What gets us wrapped up are a bunch of specs that really are not very well 
qualified. Just what they mean be this or that
is rarely clear. Is a timing accuracy tracing it all the way back to BIH in 
Paris? Is a location accuracy doing the same sort 
of thing? Even when they try to quantify a spec, that footnote may or may not 
be completely correct. A lot of these docs 
still talk about the M8 parts when you drill down into them.

The only way to really know is to try some parts and see. That’s the way it’s 
always been with these modules from pretty
much all the vendors. 

Bob

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> 
> So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
> position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
> survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
> Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of 
> your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best 
> timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, 
> nor quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
> accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.
> 
> 
>> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
>> 
>> This looks ideal to me:
>> 
>> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
>> 
>> -Dustin
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>>> 60ns for 99%.
>>> 
>>> I think I want an F9T :)
>>> 
> 
> In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
> second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
> mean solar day.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Juerg Koegel]

*Von: *Dustin Marquess 
*Gesendet: *Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 09:07
*An: *Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 


*Betreff: *[Spam] Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

This looks ideal to me:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf

-Dustin

Perfect for what we like to do. Checked Ublox not yet available. Time 
nuts should monitor and let us know when and where available.


Juerg


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mike Cook]

So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of your 
position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best timing 
accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, nor 
quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.


> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> 
> This looks ideal to me:
> 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> 
> -Dustin
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>> 60ns for 99%.
>> 
>> I think I want an F9T :)
>> 

In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
mean solar day.


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Re: [time-nuts] HP History with Dymec: "Becoming Hewlett Packard. Why Strategic Leadership Matters"

[Andy]

OK, now I'm sure the Dymec I mentioned earlier was not the same one as HP's
Dymec.

The Dymec I knew apparently got its name by condensing Dynamic Measurements
Corp. to Dymec Inc.  Also the one I knew was much more recent than HP's
Dymec, which had been folded back into HP well before.

Andy
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Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

[Bernd Neubig]

>> At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.
>>
>> And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly 
>> different, Vectron would do it.>
>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

>Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

>Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

>That's the limit of my experience.


Hi,

I am hesitating to drop the below  information, as it may be considered as
commercial.
However several models from several companies have been mentioned in this
thread, so I would just like to complete the lsiting.

I just want to point out, that AXTAL has a neat compact clean-up OCXO, model
AXPLO10.
You can find it at the AXTAL website under 
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/OscillatorModules/PhaseLockedOscillat
orModules/
It is sold in small quantities from 1 piece and is reasonably priced and has
a lead time of 5-6 weeks.

Best regards
Bernd





-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Goldberg
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 23:16
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Good clean-up oscillators

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:01 PM jimlux  wrote:

>
> At least one version is available from Mouser for $85.
>
> And I'm sure if I wanted to order one with something slightly 
> different, Vectron would do it.
>
>
>
>From my previous experience (asking for a custom frequency TCXO) Vectron's
business model does not include low volume or one offs. Even if they did,
they would charge NRE. Now, if you want to buy 10,000 of them, that is a
different story.

Connor Winfield has been much more flexible to me at least, with volumes in
the 50s being reasonably priced and willing to make them. They don't have
the highest performance parts though.

Wenzel was very responsive, they could not tell me the proprietary customer
specs, but provided specs for a similar part and told me a little about what
I had. Their new stuff is pretty expensive.

That's the limit of my experience.

Regards,

Mark
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