RE: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
+1 It's good to see that we get more and more contributors these days on Tomcat - Henri Gomez ___[_] EMAIL : [EMAIL PROTECTED](. .) PGP KEY : 697ECEDD...oOOo..(_)..oOOo... PGP Fingerprint : 9DF8 1EA8 ED53 2F39 DC9B 904A 364F 80E6 -Original Message- From: Bill Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 6:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Bill Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. -1 Sorry, but 7 messages posted to the -dev mailing list, and two patches don't make him reach my bar... I hate to be the PITA, as always, and I don't have anything against Dan or the patches he submitted to SSIServlet, but I believe that this group (as noted on the members meeting this Tuesday) is giving away committer privileges a little bit too easily... That's my $ 0.02 anyway... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pier Fumagalli wrote: I hate to be the PITA, as always, and I don't have anything against Dan or the patches he submitted to SSIServlet, but I believe that this group (as noted on the members meeting this Tuesday) is giving away committer privileges a little bit too easily... Different Apache projects (and subprojects thereof) have different bars. I am actually quite at peace with this notion. Same here... I got committer status to PHP years ago merely by sending an e-mail on an idea I wanted to pursue. At the time, I knew nothing about cvs. Good, so there are projects even more loose than tomcat dev... I didn't know that, Rasmus might comment??? Later I got committer status on Tomcat. I distinctly recall this being on the theory that any damage I might do could easily be undone. Oh, yes, it can... That's not a problem, technically. I've never seen a rollback in CVS happening in all those years, but it can be easily done. My point isn't that Tomcat should have a lower bar, but that the Tomcat committers should be free to determine their own bar. I'm fine with a loose policy on giving committer status, I'm fine with the difference (for example) between tomcat-dev and httpd-dev, but as I wouldn't be fine if the httpd folks stopped giving committer status to anyone, and closing the group (httpd has a very high bar, but they are not a closed group), at the same time I am not happy with people posting one or two times, maybe one patch, and having access to our repository... In the middle it's good, extremes (I believe) not... And since this is the second time in less than a week (Denis posted 14 times, the first time on 4/27 if I'm not wrong and Dan 7 times, the first time on 5/1), and it's starting to be a little bit extreme and it doesn't make me feel very comfortable... I believe I'm the only one who removed himself from the avail file at one point or another, and removed his committer status in projects I wasn't involved in anymore (I wrote the first draft on Cocoon 2, was a committer, not anymore since a very long time) All I'm trying to do is raise awareness over something I (personally) am not comfortable with, on the mailing list, where everyone can see, asking to my fellow co-committers what do you think... I CCed the members list because I know that there is interest over there (we talked about it at the members meeting), and because I would like to hear also from other people involved in other projects and who maybe (for sure) have much more experience than me... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
That leaves me perplexed for several reasons... First, it's the first time I see a commiter rejected - without any reference to the quality and importance of his contribution, but some new member's standard we don't know about. Dan put the SSI system in a decent shape, that's similar with the contributions many others have done to become commiters. Second, if the 'members' and/or PMC has anything to say, I believe it should do it directly and in a public forum. Beeing talked about behind our back is not very comfortable. I nominated quite a few of the current tomcat commiters, and each of them made important contributions to tomcat. I used the same 'standards' that Bill used when proposing Dan. I believe we deserve some explanation from the 'members', I'm quite unhappy about this whole issue. If there are some new quantitative standards for becoming a commiter ( or a member ) we should know about. Costin On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Bill Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. -1 Sorry, but 7 messages posted to the -dev mailing list, and two patches don't make him reach my bar... I hate to be the PITA, as always, and I don't have anything against Dan or the patches he submitted to SSIServlet, but I believe that this group (as noted on the members meeting this Tuesday) is giving away committer privileges a little bit too easily... That's my $ 0.02 anyway... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
I nominated quite a few of the current tomcat commiters, and each of them made important contributions to tomcat. I used the same 'standards' that Bill used when proposing Dan. I believe we deserve some explanation from the 'members', I'm quite unhappy about this whole issue. If there are some new quantitative standards for becoming a commiter ( or a member ) we should know about. Even if I vote +1 for both tomcat recent commiters, Benoit and Dan, I could understand Pier objections. Benoit and Dan are new to tomcat-dev (less than 1 month) and mail-archive reports 32 refs to Benoit and 17 to Dan. http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=tomcat-dev_jakarta_apache_orgrestrict=exclude=words=Denis+Benoit http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=tomcat-dev_jakarta_apache_orgrestrict=exclude=words=Dan+Sandberg But they were on tomcat-user for at least 1 year. There is many factors which determine if someone could became commiter, proposition, code, patches participation in thread, user-support and duration. And I agree with Pier that not all factors reach a 'critical level'. BTW, I think that a mandatory factor is duration, people should be granted to commiter level after a certain time of presence and activity in developper list. And that's why I understand Pier objections PS: Please don't turn that thread in flam-war. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
GOMEZ Henri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even if I vote +1 for both tomcat recent commiters, Benoit and Dan, I could understand Pier objections. Benoit and Dan are new to tomcat-dev (less than 1 month) and mail-archive reports 32 refs to Benoit and 17 to Dan. http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=tomcat-dev_jakarta_apache_ orgrestrict=exclude=words=Denis+Benoit http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=tomcat-dev_jakarta_apache_ orgrestrict=exclude=words=Dan+Sandberg That is why I'm so uncomfortable... Sorry, I don't know them, and if you ask me would you give him commit access (as you do with a vote), I can just reply well, who are they? This happened several times for the people down at Sun last year, and had no problem with that, I mean, I had to see Patrick, Amy, Remy and all the others ugly faces every day (or better, when I was awake enough to drag my bum in the office, maybe twice a week...) But they were on tomcat-user for at least 1 year. Well, that's one thing I didn't know... There is many factors which determine if someone could became commiter, proposition, code, patches participation in thread, user-support and duration. Agreed wholeheartedly. From what I can see (for example) Dan has submitted one patch, and all BillB said was I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. That's all I know... Someone throw me a bone down here... BTW, I think that a mandatory factor is duration, people should be granted to commiter level after a certain time of presence and activity in developper list. It's not a requirement for me, but surely it would ease up things when coming up and deciding whether to give someone committer access... At least I would know who I'm talking about. That's also why I keep pushing everyone (Remy and JF were slapped a couple of times), not to send me mail privately about Tomcat, but always to the list, it raises awareness, everyone will know where everyone stands... And that's why I understand Pier objections At least for once :) PS: Please don't turn that thread in flam-war. Absolutely, far from me to do that. Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
In the middle it's good, extremes (I believe) not... And since this is the second time in less than a week (Denis posted 14 times, the first time on 4/27 if I'm not wrong and Dan 7 times, the first time on 5/1), and it's starting to be a little bit extreme and it doesn't make me feel very comfortable... You have to consider the importance and quality of the patch. In Denis' case, that's why I nominated him. I have yet to see trouble caused by a guy who was granted commit access, and the idea is to encourage people to contribute more. Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Remy Maucherat wrote: In the middle it's good, extremes (I believe) not... And since this is the second time in less than a week (Denis posted 14 times, the first time on 4/27 if I'm not wrong and Dan 7 times, the first time on 5/1), and it's starting to be a little bit extreme and it doesn't make me feel very comfortable... You have to consider the importance and quality of the patch. In Denis' case, that's why I nominated him. I have yet to see trouble caused by a guy who was granted commit access, and the idea is to encourage people to contribute more. Probably the status of Developer as described in the http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html is not used correctly. For me, if someone that brings one good patch reaches the developer rank, not yet the committer rank (Or are the committers too lazy to commit contributions from the developers?). Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
jean-frederic clere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remy Maucherat wrote: In the middle it's good, extremes (I believe) not... And since this is the second time in less than a week (Denis posted 14 times, the first time on 4/27 if I'm not wrong and Dan 7 times, the first time on 5/1), and it's starting to be a little bit extreme and it doesn't make me feel very comfortable... You have to consider the importance and quality of the patch. In Denis' case, that's why I nominated him. I have yet to see trouble caused by a guy who was granted commit access, and the idea is to encourage people to contribute more. Probably the status of Developer as described in the http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html is not used correctly. For me, if someone that brings one good patch reaches the developer rank, not yet the committer rank (Or are the committers too lazy to commit contributions from the developers?). From the same document you mentioned... Committers: Developers who give frequent and valuable contributions to a subproject of the Project can have their status promoted to that of a Committer for that subproject. Ok, we all agree that Denis gave a valuable contribution, but as far as I can see, can we say that this is frequent? I honestly can't... And again, I have _nothing_ against Dan or Dennis, actually, I would like to thank them for their patches... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
I think Pier's conerns are quite reasonable. Let me bring up a few points that I think are central to the debate: A. Security. This is the most important concern in allowing new commiters. If they purposely or accidently introduce security issues, this tarnishes the Tomcat name. Code review is the most important way of preventing this. How much does asking someone else to commit the code for you force them to look over it for bugs of this kind? How much would other people look over CVS submissions that were done directly by a new commiter? The ratio between these numbers is critical. If it is 1, then there is no harm in giving commit access easily. B. Introducing bugs. This is a concern much like A., but because the SSI code had glaring bugs to begin with, I don't think it is much of an issue in my case. If a new contributor has commit access, it makes it easier for her to fix any bugs they introduce, and presumably they would because of the pride-factor. C. Commiter may not stay long. In my case, I explicitly said that I didn't want to be a commiter originally. I didn't want to spend lots of time on this project. As things turned out, my 3 hour change turned into a 3 day change, and it has become obvious to me that a few more commits will probably be necessary. I asked for commit access because 1) I want to take the load of others and 2) The latency of waiting for others to review/commit the code is fairly high. Nevertheless, I'll say this explicitly: I don't want to become a 'major' contributor to Tomcat. Act accoringly. D.Scope. Must a commiter have scope to the entire project? Can't the access file be changed only in the o.a.c.ssi directory and the servlet directory? Would this address any concerns? Thanks, Dan Pier Fumagalli wrote: jean-frederic clere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remy Maucherat wrote: In the middle it's good, extremes (I believe) not... And since this is the second time in less than a week (Denis posted 14 times, the first time on 4/27 if I'm not wrong and Dan 7 times, the first time on 5/1), and it's starting to be a little bit extreme and it doesn't make me feel very comfortable... You have to consider the importance and quality of the patch. In Denis' case, that's why I nominated him. I have yet to see trouble caused by a guy who was granted commit access, and the idea is to encourage people to contribute more. Probably the status of Developer as described in the http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html is not used correctly. For me, if someone that brings one good patch reaches the developer rank, not yet the committer rank (Or are the committers too lazy to commit contributions from the developers?). From the same document you mentioned... Committers: Developers who give frequent and valuable contributions to a subproject of the Project can have their status promoted to that of a Committer for that subproject. Ok, we all agree that Denis gave a valuable contribution, but as far as I can see, can we say that this is frequent? I honestly can't... And again, I have _nothing_ against Dan or Dennis, actually, I would like to thank them for their patches... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Dan Sandberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Pier's conerns are quite reasonable. Thank you, and coming from the interested party, that shows me we are in agreement... :) :) :) Let me bring up a few points that I think are central to the debate: I'm following... A. Security. This is the most important concern in allowing new commiters. If they purposely or accidently introduce security issues, this tarnishes the Tomcat name. Code review is the most important way of preventing this. How much does asking someone else to commit the code for you force them to look over it for bugs of this kind? How much would other people look over CVS submissions that were done directly by a new commiter? The ratio between these numbers is critical. If it is 1, then there is no harm in giving commit access easily. I personally review every CVS commit that concerns me. For example, I don't review commits to TC3.x because I don't use it, or to mod_jk, because I don't understand it... I try to help out when I can on those source bases, but I can't really do much on those trees... I consider myself a committer of jakarta-tomcat-connectors/webapp (very restricted scope) but I do have the ability to screw up other code as well :) And of course, I try to participate to my best to the overall Tomcat 4.x evolution (but time's limited nowadays). B. Introducing bugs. This is a concern much like A., but because the SSI code had glaring bugs to begin with, I don't think it is much of an issue in my case. If a new contributor has commit access, it makes it easier for her to fix any bugs they introduce, and presumably they would because of the pride-factor. Most of the bugs (IMO) are introduced by veterans (such as me), because we get stuck usually on something and we tend not to look at the wider picture, coming from the outside, it's easier for you to see my fuckups, for instance, because you see the code still as a whole... C. Commiter may not stay long. In my case, I explicitly said that I didn't want to be a commiter originally. I didn't want to spend lots of time on this project. As things turned out, my 3 hour change turned into a 3 day change, and it has become obvious to me that a few more commits will probably be necessary. I asked for commit access because 1) I want to take the load of others and 2) The latency of waiting for others to review/commit the code is fairly high. Nevertheless, I'll say this explicitly: I don't want to become a 'major' contributor to Tomcat. Act accoringly. Just one question on this. Being a committer implies that you're going to have the right (and the due, of course, like in any good democracy) to (for example) elect PMC members, have -also- a some sort of responsibility over what you do, and what others do, meaning code reviews, deciding on the future of the whole tomcat project, voting on future release plans and such... As I said, this is not only a right, but also a responsibility. As a committer you _should_ be doing that. Now, my question is, do you want _at_this_point_ to have that responsibility? Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) (I just want to show how committing to a particular codebase, sometimes, might be different from the whole kit'n'kaboodle that being a committer involves)... D.Scope. Must a commiter have scope to the entire project? Can't the access file be changed only in the o.a.c.ssi directory and the servlet directory? Would this address any concerns? Technically it would be feasible to implement that feature, but administrivia would become utterly complex. Thank you _very_much_ for taking part to all of this :) :) :) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Just one question on this. Being a committer implies that you're going to have the right (and the due, of course, like in any good democracy) to (for example) elect PMC members, have -also- a some sort of responsibility over what you do, and what others do, meaning code reviews, deciding on the future of the whole tomcat project, voting on future release plans and such... As I said, this is not only a right, but also a responsibility. As a committer you _should_ be doing that. Now, my question is, do you want _at_this_point_ to have that responsibility? Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) Most tomcat commiters review only a small ammount of the commits, that is relevant to what they know. Voting ( or beeing voted ) in PMC is optional. If you want to know the real price of becoming a commiter - it's loosing all control over the code you write, having to play flame wars and grow a thick skin. And you may spend many weekends doing work that is just thrown away. Pier is right in this aspect - and I fully agree with him that beeing a jakarta commiter comes at a much bigger price than you may think. If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Costin (I just want to show how committing to a particular codebase, sometimes, might be different from the whole kit'n'kaboodle that being a committer involves)... D.Scope. Must a commiter have scope to the entire project? Can't the access file be changed only in the o.a.c.ssi directory and the servlet directory? Would this address any concerns? Technically it would be feasible to implement that feature, but administrivia would become utterly complex. Thank you _very_much_ for taking part to all of this :) :) :) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Just one question on this. Being a committer implies that you're going to have the right (and the due, of course, like in any good democracy) to (for example) elect PMC members, have -also- a some sort of responsibility over what you do, and what others do, meaning code reviews, deciding on the future of the whole tomcat project, voting on future release plans and such... As I said, this is not only a right, but also a responsibility. As a committer you _should_ be doing that. Now, my question is, do you want _at_this_point_ to have that responsibility? Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) Most tomcat commiters review only a small ammount of the commits, that is relevant to what they know. Voting ( or beeing voted ) in PMC is optional. If you want to know the real price of becoming a commiter - it's loosing all control over the code you write, having to play flame wars and grow a thick skin. And you may spend many weekends doing work that is just thrown away. Pier is right in this aspect - and I fully agree with him that beeing a jakarta commiter comes at a much bigger price than you may think. If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Very constructive, Costin, indeed... See my next email (at least I'm trying to propose something)... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Granting that I'm not as experienced with open-source collaboration as the rest of you are, my intuition is that the easier it is for people to make changes to the code-base ( assuming their contributions are reviewed ) the faster the code-base will improve and bugs will be eliminated. Again, this is contigent on the belief that contributions will be reviewed by somebody for security, bugs, and code quality. As for the question that Pier asked: How much responsibility am I willing to take on? I am willing to address bugs, and review contributions to the SSI code. I would usually not vote on committers unless I know that they should be + or -, which will be rare. Similarly, I would vote on release plans, the future of the project, etc., if and only if I feel I had something to add in those areas, which will probably be rare. If you want to know the real price of becoming a commiter - it's loosing all control over the code you write, having to play flame wars and grow a thick skin. And you may spend many weekends doing work that is just thrown away. I'm thick-headed and thick-skinned, so this is not a problem. I'll skip on the flame wars though. :) Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) I don't view committer status as a trophy. I just want to fix things that are broken. Having commit access makes this easier for me and for everyone else. If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Not sure how this helps. If I understand the suggestion correctly, this is equivalent to forking the SSI code, which definitely won't help the development process. I just read Pier's proposal, and I agree with him. Sorry to have instigated all this, but I suppose it's something that would have had to be dealt with sooner or later... -Dan Pier Fumagalli wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Just one question on this. Being a committer implies that you're going to have the right (and the due, of course, like in any good democracy) to (for example) elect PMC members, have -also- a some sort of responsibility over what you do, and what others do, meaning code reviews, deciding on the future of the whole tomcat project, voting on future release plans and such... As I said, this is not only a right, but also a responsibility. As a committer you _should_ be doing that. Now, my question is, do you want _at_this_point_ to have that responsibility? Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) Most tomcat commiters review only a small ammount of the commits, that is relevant to what they know. Voting ( or beeing voted ) in PMC is optional. If you want to know the real price of becoming a commiter - it's loosing all control over the code you write, having to play flame wars and grow a thick skin. And you may spend many weekends doing work that is just thrown away. Pier is right in this aspect - and I fully agree with him that beeing a jakarta commiter comes at a much bigger price than you may think. If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Very constructive, Costin, indeed... See my next email (at least I'm trying to propose something)... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Dan Sandberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Granting that I'm not as experienced with open-source collaboration as the rest of you are, Don't worry, I'm here since 1997 and I'm probably the most clueless of all freaks... :) my intuition is that the easier it is for people to make changes to the code-base ( assuming their contributions are reviewed ) the faster the code-base will improve and bugs will be eliminated. Again, this is contigent on the belief that contributions will be reviewed by somebody for security, bugs, and code quality. This is absolutely true. Fresh blood is what we _need_. I'm not arguing with it, and I'm not arguing with the fact that it's just _easier_ to have CVS access... One example from somewhere else, I have a small patch for APR, the Apache Portable Runtime, I just need to change a ... (quote) in a [...] (square bracket) in an M4 macro because it might break stuff somewhere (it seems that all M4 versions actually interpret it in the same way, but there's a slight difference). This is on 3 lines of their configure.in, and I submitted it 3 months ago? _noone_ committed it yet, once every week I resubmit it, but it's such a tiny thing that noone actually cares to commit (I would do exactly the same). If I had CVS access I would do it myself (I can actually grant me cvs access, commit that patch and be gone, and I'm sure noone would complain), but... As for the question that Pier asked: How much responsibility am I willing to take on? I am willing to address bugs, and review contributions to the SSI code. I would usually not vote on committers unless I know that they should be + or -, which will be rare. Similarly, I would vote on release plans, the future of the project, etc., if and only if I feel I had something to add in those areas, which will probably be rare. Great, that's what we expect from committers, I'm going to strike my -1 and make it a +1, but please don't let me down and disappear in 2 months! :) :) If you want to know the real price of becoming a commiter - it's loosing all control over the code you write, having to play flame wars and grow a thick skin. And you may spend many weekends doing work that is just thrown away. I'm thick-headed and thick-skinned, so this is not a problem. I'll skip on the flame wars though. :) Too bad, I would like to have a flame buddy from time to time... Are you interested? I don't want to sound bad, but hey everything comes at a price :) :) :) I don't view committer status as a trophy. I just want to fix things that are broken. Having commit access makes this easier for me and for everyone else. I do view committer status as a trophy, probably because I had to put sweat and blood in getting it years ago, and still, I'm struggling to get one on APR, or on HTTPD, I help out when I can, I play with the big boys, one day someone will just say I'd like Pier to be a committer, and that will be one of the best days in my life... But don't worry that on that day there won't be anyone who could say who's this guy?... If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Not sure how this helps. If I understand the suggestion correctly, this is equivalent to forking the SSI code, which definitely won't help the development process. No, it won't and frankly it's something I wouldn't have wanted to hear from a committer, a seasoned one, and a PMC member. I am trying, struggling to build something, like most of us I'm not paid for what I do here (I used to be, and I can tell you, now that I'm out, I wouldn't go back). Just saying get off to SourceForge and build your thing over there doesn't go around in my book... I just read Pier's proposal, and I agree with him. Cheers, thanks, I'm going to waive my -1 so that you can vote +1 on my proposal, then :) :) :) Sorry to have instigated all this, but I suppose it's something that would have had to be dealt with sooner or later... You're right, it's just a casus belli as Romans might say. Now that the discussion is undergoing (I hope), I would like to welcome you to the big PHAT Jakarta Community, and please, as a (rejected before and then welcomed) committer, keep your thoughts coming... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Ok, we all agree that Denis gave a valuable contribution, but as far as I can see, can we say that this is frequent? I honestly can't... And again, I have _nothing_ against Dan or Dennis, actually, I would like to thank them for their patches... Pier I understand your arguments perfectly, and I must admit that I agree with most of them. On the other hand, I think there's a tendancy to bring fresh blood in the tomcat-dev community and that may very well be a good thing. Personnaly, I don't expect to use my recent commiter status to start to commit code blindly. What hooked me to the tomcat-dev community was the challenge I could get working with guys like Kin-Man. If you look at my ratio of lines of e-mail to the list vs lines of code, you'll see that it's pretty high :) The most interesting part is the exchange of ideas to arrive at a better solution than if all parties worked independantly. I feel that I grow better, and it feels also rewarding to know that what you build helped other people too. And the satisfaction of having done a thing right is not bad either :) I don't think that knowing me better is much relevant to do the actual commit of the code. Even if you knew me, even if you knew that I'm a good coder (and I'm not saying that I am), it would not mean that I understand the architecture of Tomcat, or the long time direction the group has decided to give to Tomcat. So a patch, even if it would be all right on its own, may not fit in the architecture, or the direction that Tomcat is taking. If only for these reasons, I would rely on the opinions and feedback of the senior members of Tomcat-dev. And whatever status I may have, won't change the way I think. I feel much more at ease having discussed a patch extensively with a senior member of the team and submit a patch afterward. I don't really care if I'me the one doing the commit or if somebody else does it. In fact, I personally prefer to have some senior member audit the code and commit it. If the commiter status means that I will have to commit my code myself, and it would be inappropriate to post code to the mailing list for peer review, then by all means take it back! I want to remain a developper! All that being said, if it would appear preferable to some that my name be removed from the CVS commiters list, I would not mind a bit. I have just read a proposition from Kin-Man to reengineer Generator.java and a reply from Costin, you can bet that I will think about it a few hours and take a stance, or maybe propose something :) I sure hope that I can help in some way work on this class that I came to know more closely with my previous patch, and in other parts of Tomcat... I have other ideas :) I really liked working with Kin-Man (I hope it was mutual!), and I look forward to continue to be active in the group whatever the status the group feels I should assume. -- Denis Benoit [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Hola a Todos, Dennis, Dan: I didnt vote you prior, mainly because i'm the weekend man :), but too because having no time to follow every Technical thread here, and yours were very far from my interests and habilities, and not knowing you, i've decided to not to vote you better than give an uninformed vote, now after reading this thread at least you 2 personally have convinced me that deserve my vote.. +1 for both If something i think we learned from that thread, raised by Pier The conspicuous :), is that people must present himself to the tomcat communitty at large, for those like me, uninformed of the facts and ignorants of the more technical threads, can know more of the proposed committer, and in addition made the desire of be part of this comunitty something more proactive for the proposed person than it's now.. Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
On Fri, 24 May 2002, Denis Benoit wrote: All that being said, if it would appear preferable to some that my name be removed from the CVS commiters list, I would not mind a bit. I have just Denis, your contributions so far have been impressive. If anyone wants to remove your name from the CVS commiter list, he'll have to remove mine first. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 21:00, Pier Fumagalli wrote: I hate to be the PITA, as always, and I don't have anything against Dan or the patches he submitted to SSIServlet, but I believe that this group (as noted on the members meeting this Tuesday) is giving away committer privileges a little bit too easily... Perfectly understand your arguments here - I'm one of those 'one patch' committers. My commits were always driven by selfishness - if something I use is broken in the TC version I use (3.3.x), then I'll attempt to fix it. Otherwise, I'll just cruise along. And since TC 3.3.x is so damn good and stable these days (and does what I want it to do), I just have no motivation to do anything else. Maybe there should be a committer status review every so often? Bojan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
On Fri, 24 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: If you want my advice - create a sourceforge account, do all the work on SSI there, and have fun. ( and maybe give access to other tomcat commiters who are interested to work on SSI ). Very constructive, Costin, indeed... See my next email (at least I'm trying to propose something)... I believe I proposed something as well. Sourceforge is an excelent place to write code and have fun. And you can make the projects as open as you want and have the same technical resources ( or more ). There are quite a few projects there that are doing pretty well ( JBoss ? ). I'm playing with ant-contrib and cpptasks right now, they even have a nice community. I think Coyote started as a sf project as well ( Remy ? ) Same for Cactus, etc. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
Bojan Smojver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe there should be a committer status review every so often? I fought that war last year... Ended up being flamed from everywhere because I'm the big fat hog who doesn't want to see other people around and want to remove privileges to people. At the end the war ended with me removing my own committer privileges from those projects I wasn't contributing to (I'd like to be honest), and getting two weeks of antidepressants (not)... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. +1 Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
+1 Bojan On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 14:56, Bill Barker wrote: I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] New Committer Dan Sandberg
+1 Costin On Thu, 23 May 2002, Bill Barker wrote: I'd like to propose Dan Sandberg (x at cs.stanford.edu) as a new Tomcat committer. He has already put in a great deal of work in re-factoring the SSIServlet in Tomcat 4.x, and seems to be willing to further contribute to working on this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
