Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
heheh - well, he actually had problems finding something interesting that would pay even on a par with entry-level sysadmin or support work - at least in this area. Right now he's working as a developer (which he's had a fair amount of experience with), but is barely touching his degree expertise. WMM On 2/19/07, Alan Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...at the level somebody with a PhD in Electrical Engineering should get. Ah, so Home Depot is hiring again? [1] Alan [1] Not slamming on your room-mate in particular, but it's sad how hard the EE market is these days. I do know at least one working at Home Depot, and a few others who are out of work completely. . -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ -- http://warrenmyers.com God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers. --Paul Erdős It's not possible. We are the type of people who have everything in our favor going against us. --Ben Jarhvi, Short Circuit 2 -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
I interviewed there a long while back, but turned down a second interview after hearing the salary range (and using google to look at the price of housing in the area)... To be more accurate, my wife turned them down. Personally I would have taken the hit in salary and living style, but with a wife and kids, the decision was not mine alone to make. Still, there is plenty of opportunity here... just awaiting folks with will and vision. Jon Carnes FeatureTel - Original Message - From: bak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list trilug@trilug.org Aaron, you made a bunch of other interesting and valid points which I will respond to at some point in the near future. Any other almost- was Googlers on the list? I'm getting quite curious, now. -- -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
- Original Message - From: Magnus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list trilug@trilug.org These flexible compensation packages are probably more attractive to people right out of school, dual income families, single adults, or childless couples. I do think that this sort of package would tend to repel breadwinners from single income families or families with a number of children. -Magnus I agree with you Magnus, but would rephrase it as: ... would tend to repel folks who have other commitments in their lives beyond living for the company. There is a reason why successful startups feed their workers, just as every father feeds his family. Jon -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Hear! Hear! I love how the IT business in general loves to promote itself as family friendly but anyone with a family who has been in IT knows it is all just K-rap. On 2/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Magnus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list trilug@trilug.org These flexible compensation packages are probably more attractive to people right out of school, dual income families, single adults, or childless couples. I do think that this sort of package would tend to repel breadwinners from single income families or families with a number of children. -Magnus I agree with you Magnus, but would rephrase it as: ... would tend to repel folks who have other commitments in their lives beyond living for the company. There is a reason why successful startups feed their workers, just as every father feeds his family. Jon -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ -- In the future, it will be said that America is really good at only 3 things: Music, Software and Pizza Delivery, (Snow Crash, ~p20). -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Mike Shaw wrote: Hear! Hear! I love how the IT business in general loves to promote itself as family friendly but anyone with a family who has been in IT knows it is all just K-rap. Not necessarily. I'm currently contracting at IBM and the work-life balance here is very real. If I need to take some time off to take my kid to the doctor for some shots, no problem. I took off 2 weeks for paternity leave when baby #3 was born. No problem. Telecommuting is encouraged. Unless something goes drastically wrong or I have change management planned, I usually work ~40 hour weeks. I think a lot of this is because of the flexibility given to first line managers here... I think that I just lucked out and got a great boss. I know other people are going to have completely different impressions as I've seen some taskmaster bosses who will schedule meetings to START at or after 5pm, at or before 8am, etc, on a regular basis without thinking anything of it. We do things together as a team outside of the office from time to time but it is often during business hours. We went as a department to see Superman Returns at IMAX. Two weeks ago, it was bowling on friday. These team building activities don't infringe on our precious after-hours time. I'd probably renew my contracts here indefinitely if it weren't for my contracting agency, who gets in the way of an otherwise good thing. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Wow - that sounds great! I'm an IBM full-time employee and I can't say I have as rosie of a picture to paint. I'm not in a bad area now but I was in another area that was not that great. It definitely matters who your boss is. But I will still stand by my let's advertise things better than what they really are industry. On 2/19/07, Magnus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Shaw wrote: Hear! Hear! I love how the IT business in general loves to promote itself as family friendly but anyone with a family who has been in IT knows it is all just K-rap. Not necessarily. I'm currently contracting at IBM and the work-life balance here is very real. If I need to take some time off to take my kid to the doctor for some shots, no problem. I took off 2 weeks for paternity leave when baby #3 was born. No problem. Telecommuting is encouraged. Unless something goes drastically wrong or I have change management planned, I usually work ~40 hour weeks. I think a lot of this is because of the flexibility given to first line managers here... I think that I just lucked out and got a great boss. I know other people are going to have completely different impressions as I've seen some taskmaster bosses who will schedule meetings to START at or after 5pm, at or before 8am, etc, on a regular basis without thinking anything of it. We do things together as a team outside of the office from time to time but it is often during business hours. We went as a department to see Superman Returns at IMAX. Two weeks ago, it was bowling on friday. These team building activities don't infringe on our precious after-hours time. I'd probably renew my contracts here indefinitely if it weren't for my contracting agency, who gets in the way of an otherwise good thing. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ -- In the future, it will be said that America is really good at only 3 things: Music, Software and Pizza Delivery, (Snow Crash, ~p20). -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Message: 12 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:24:18 -0500 From: Mike Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list trilug@trilug.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hear! Hear! I love how the IT business in general loves to promote itself as family friendly but anyone with a family who has been in IT knows it is all just K-rap. I guess I'm only tangentially in the IT field the rest of you are in- I'm a digital librarian at NC State. About half of what I do is system administration and application development. I had an opportunity recently to go to a dot com, which seemed great. I'm sure I would have loved it and it payed more than I make at State, but I suspect that they were pretty demanding in a not-so-family friendly way. My wife and I don't have kids, but it's nice to know that we're in a good position to should we so choose. Also, it's unlikely that NC State is going to fold any time soon. I do keep telling myself, though, that if IBM or Redhat has an opening for a librarian/ corporate taxonomist/ information architect, I'd apply. I don't have any sense how they treat people, but it can't be too bad, right? Jim -- -- ---Jim Tuttle -- url: http://www.prairienet.org/~jtuttle/ PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x69B69B08 -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 15:58, Jim Tuttle wrote: Message: 13 I guess I'm only tangentially in the IT field the rest of you are in- I'm a digital librarian at NC State. About half of what I do is system administration and application development. I had an opportunity recently to go to a dot com, which seemed great. I'm sure I would have loved it and it payed more than I make at State, but I suspect that they were pretty demanding in a not-so-family friendly way. My wife and I don't have kids, but it's nice to know that we're in a good position to should we so choose. Also, it's unlikely that NC State is going to fold any time soon. I do keep telling myself, though, that if IBM or Redhat has an opening for a librarian/ corporate taxonomist/ information architect, I'd apply. I don't have any sense how they treat people, but it can't be too bad, right? Jim Jim, The dot coms really aren't that bad. You spend all your time there because it's fun, you fit in, and it feels like family. If you don't fit in, if you don't think it's fun, if it doesn't feel like family to you, then it's a bit like hell - and you should definitely go get another job (probably not one that is at a startup). The sense of belonging is a powerful bonus for a lot of humans - especially those of the geek variety. As to Red Hat, from what I hear these days, its more of a brick-and-mortar feel about it. That is to say, they have gone corporate. And I think the definition of corporate should say: see IBM. I've got nothing against real corporations. I've done really well working for them in the past... but they are more about making money than having fun or changing the world for the better. But now, if you *think* that making money is fun, and it changes *your world* for the better, then corporate life is for you! Working for the University is definitely different... and in my opinion much more fun. Despite the low pay and vast quantity of Red Tape, folks there are generally friendly and truly grateful for the things you do. Sounds like you made the right decision for your future! Good Luck. Jon Carnes BTW: culture shifts at dot coms can make the older-employees feel like they have just been betrayed by their families. Hence the back-biting words that often flay about as dot coms grow and shift. The employees feel like suckers for their past loyalty. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
I just graduated in December, and was fortunate to be in the position of having two very nice job offers to pick from. I went with my job in Cary over one in Dallas for mostly two reasons: first, it didn't involve moving to an area where I know no one and second, they're already a publicly-traded company, so as much fun as it can be working for a non-publicly traded company, working for one where you can get good external analysis of the company's financials, work, etc was pretty appealing. My roommate went for almost 7 months after his graduation from grad school in Dec of 05 before finding a job that was both interesting and would compensate him at the level somebody with a PhD in Electrical Engineering should get. And it was because of his job that I found out about the availability of my current job. A relocation for me would have been a relatively trivial matter - but the amount they offered above the local company wasn't worth the hassle of moving, changing car insurance, licensing, finding an apartment in a not-crappy part of town, etc. Since I just graduated from college, had I been able to actually talk to Google about any of the positions I applied for, and they offered something approaching parity of what I got here, I would have jumped at the opportunity. But right now I'm working for a company that small enough, and specialized enough, that not only do I have a shot at knowing most if not all of my coworkers (and a bunch that I would otherwise not need to know), but I can also reasonably expect to know each of our products inside-out and backwards inside of a few months. Warren -- http://warrenmyers.com God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers. --Paul Erdős It's not possible. We are the type of people who have everything in our favor going against us. --Ben Jarhvi, Short Circuit 2 -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
...at the level somebody with a PhD in Electrical Engineering should get. Ah, so Home Depot is hiring again? [1] Alan [1] Not slamming on your room-mate in particular, but it's sad how hard the EE market is these days. I do know at least one working at Home Depot, and a few others who are out of work completely. . -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Alan Porter wrote: ...at the level somebody with a PhD in Electrical Engineering should get. Ah, so Home Depot is hiring again? [1] [1] Not slamming on your room-mate in particular, but it's sad how hard the EE market is these days. I do know at least one working at Home Depot, and a few others who are out of work completely. On an oddly related note, about 5 years ago I applied for a job at Home Depot when I wanted a part-time, evening/weekend job, and the grocery store I had been working at shut down. I asked to work in the electrical department, because I have some electronics experience and am in general interested in electricity, so I thought it would be a fun area to work. While they offered me a job as a cashier, they turned down my request to work in Electrical, because I had no practical work experience there. Apparently they had enough qualified electricians (and EEs?) applying, that they didn't need someone with only sales/cashiering experience :-) I ended up working at a different grocery store as a bookkeeper and service desk clerk instead, which was actually quite instructive in learning how a large retail business operates - there are many things you can only learn from the inside. Also, I got to catch shoplifters from time to time which was a lot of fun :-) --Jeremy -- /-\ | Jeremy Portzer[EMAIL PROTECTED] trilug.org/~jeremy | | GPG Fingerprint: 712D 77C7 AB2D 2130 989F E135 6F9F F7BC CC1A 7B92 | \-/ -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Warning, this is one of those Aaron emails that goes on for ever. I actually wrote it in two sittings, it took so long. If you're not interested in the internals of Google compensation, you may safely stop reading now. bak wrote: Bear with me for a minute, I haven't discussed this with more than a couple people in the last six months, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to do so now. I'm always interested to hear other people's viewpoints, especially as I do around an interview or two a week, and yours was quite interesting. Do you mind if I ask you what position you interviewed for, which recruiter and which group? You said it was an SA position, I'm going to guess it was probably with SysOps (not to say anything bad about them at all, quite the contrary, just that it kinda doubt it was with our group or I would have heard about a guy from NC). If you want to elaborate on this I'd be happy to take this portion of the conversation off-list as well. As someone who was offered an SA job at Google last year and turned it down, I would describe my experience with the Google interview process as prolonged (i.e. about 3 months) and somewhat aggravating, consisting of two phone screens, followed by an on-site interview of epic length, during which I was grilled in half a dozen hour-long interviews on various UNIX, scripting, networking, and SA-related topics at a depth of something like 300 meters. No offense intended, but what we generally tend to look for in candidates is the type of person who thinks what you just described is a fun and enjoyable thing, as opposed to the grilling you seemed to interpret it as. Perhaps that's the fault of the interviewers (occasionally certain people can be a bit harsh if they're having a bad day, but in my experience that's pretty rare, we only do much interviewing if we enjoy it). Ideally, the chance to consider things you may not have thought about before like scaling a given task up to work on 10,000+ machines, or the internals of how a file system works, or the ramifications of how various networking implementations do packet delivery... should be an interesting and fun way to spend a day. We've also been working on reducing the time it takes to get from one end of the interview process to the other. 3 months is a good bit longer than we'd like it to take, and we've got a lot of changes going on internally to improve that. I think, particularly for the Lenoir positions, we'll see a lot shorter turn around times on the whole process. I must have acquitted myself fairly well, because they offered me the job. But the fact that they had free food, drinks, and scooby snacks didn't really make up, in my mind, for their middling salary offer -- the recruiter even told me at the interview that they compensate for the salary with their benefits, free ski trips, free food and t-shirts, etc. This is an argument that would have pulled more weight with me had I been just out of college, but not so much at this stage in my life. And the We're Google factor didn't make up for the fact that none of the techie interviewers made the time to answer my questions about what working at Google was like, except for the last guy, who reluctantly gave me five minutes. Career path? Work environment? We're Google! Our benefits are great! Don't ask questions, we have to double our workforce next year! Perhaps this is not an unreasonable attitude to encounter at a company like Google, but I have to admit that it worried me a great deal. So, base salary isn't what one might typically expect. And even from the offer letter, it's sometimes hard to make an accurate assessment of what the compensation package provided by Google really is. Having been in exactly your shoes, I'll describe my reasoning, and what I learned after the fact. As you may have noted from the 3rd link I provided, how the compensation would work out was very much on my mind when I left the interview as well. I was quite concerned at the cost of living, especially as I looked at housing in the valley. I set my baseline as what I'd like to make, was 2x my current salary in RTP. I decided if I got at least 1.5x my current salary in RTP, that I'd still happily accept with out any questions. 1.3x my salary in NC and I'd have to talk with the wife about it, but probably decline, as it would mean living on a bit of a tight budget. What I ended up being offered was a base salary of around 1.2x of my salary in RTP, plus some other stocks, annual bonus, etc. (For reference, my salary in RTP was quite healthy for the time, it was about 2x what I was making 6 months before that). We sat down and made some tough decisions about moving out to CA, but decided we could make it work on that base salary alone. The deciding factor for me, at the time, was that if we could make it work financially, it would be worth it to work with such amazingly intelligent and talented people. Fast forward ~20
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Aaron, thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I've personally found it very interesting to read, from both sides. Just an unsolicited $0.02: Aaron S. Joyner wrote: So, base salary isn't what one might typically expect. And even from the offer letter, it's sometimes hard to make an accurate assessment of what the compensation package provided by Google really is. Bang. Right there you've got a big red flag for geeks that are further along in their careers... maybe someone like me who is supporting a wife three kids. Guys like me would much rather have a sure thing that may or may not be less than an income that can vary widely depending on how your own performance is perceived, how the company performance is measured by the bean counters, and how the compensation plan itself is inevitably going to be restructured as the company matures. A lot of us got burned, badly, during the heady dot-com years when so much of our compensation was based off of company performance, stock options, and so on. These days, it is a lot more attractive to be able to bank on getting $X per paycheck rather than a substantially lower number with *potential* for a balloon payment annually of unknown value. These flexible compensation packages are probably more attractive to people right out of school, dual income families, single adults, or childless couples. I do think that this sort of package would tend to repel breadwinners from single income families or families with a number of children. -Magnus -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Magnus wrote: Aaron, thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I've personally found it very interesting to read, from both sides. Just an unsolicited $0.02: Aaron S. Joyner wrote: So, base salary isn't what one might typically expect. And even from the offer letter, it's sometimes hard to make an accurate assessment of what the compensation package provided by Google really is. Bang. Right there you've got a big red flag for geeks that are further along in their careers... maybe someone like me who is supporting a wife three kids. Guys like me would much rather have a sure thing that may or may not be less than an income that can vary widely depending on how your own performance is perceived, how the company performance is measured by the bean counters, and how the compensation plan itself is inevitably going to be restructured as the company matures. A lot of us got burned, badly, during the heady dot-com years when so much of our compensation was based off of company performance, stock options, and so on. These days, it is a lot more attractive to be able to bank on getting $X per paycheck rather than a substantially lower number with *potential* for a balloon payment annually of unknown value. These flexible compensation packages are probably more attractive to people right out of school, dual income families, single adults, or childless couples. I do think that this sort of package would tend to repel breadwinners from single income families or families with a number of children. I have to concur with Magnus here. The job I had as an SA before this one regularly came with a base bonus of 20%. I always made at least that. Why did I hate getting a bonus, then? Because when you accept it in lieu of being paid a salary -- as deferred compensation, or what-have-you -- it is no longer a bonus. It's if-we-feel-like-it salary on the part of management. If they take it away -- and they won't hesitate to do so, if they really need to -- boom, you're suddenly working for WAY below market rate for your skills, and good luck convincing your next company that you're worth (your salary) * (1.bonus). Will this happen at Google? Damned if I know -- and that's the point. But this is just a feeling on my part, based on my experience; Aaron obviously feels that it was well worth the risk, and I certainly can't say he was wrong. So: I did not consider bonuses as a numerical part of my salary at the jobs I was considering in 2006, as all the companies I had an interest in were large (more than a couple thousand) and publicly traded. I might consider it for a small, flat company where I had a distinct and measurable influence as an employee. Guess what I heard? No bonus for IT in 2006 at my old company. I hated to be proved right for the sake of my ex-co-workers. Perhaps working there had this cynical influence on my attitude which you all in TriLUG land are probably contrasting with Aaron's at this very moment. Aaron, you made a bunch of other interesting and valid points which I will respond to at some point in the near future. Any other almost-was Googlers on the list? I'm getting quite curious, now. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
bak wrote: Magnus wrote: Aaron, thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. I've personally found it very interesting to read, from both sides. Just an unsolicited $0.02: Aaron S. Joyner wrote: So, base salary isn't what one might typically expect. And even from the offer letter, it's sometimes hard to make an accurate assessment of what the compensation package provided by Google really is. Bang. Right there you've got a big red flag for geeks that are further along in their careers... maybe someone like me who is supporting a wife three kids. Guys like me would much rather have a sure thing that may or may not be less than an income that can vary widely depending on how your own performance is perceived, how the company performance is measured by the bean counters, and how the compensation plan itself is inevitably going to be restructured as the company matures. A lot of us got burned, badly, during the heady dot-com years when so much of our compensation was based off of company performance, stock options, and so on. These days, it is a lot more attractive to be able to bank on getting $X per paycheck rather than a substantially lower number with *potential* for a balloon payment annually of unknown value. These flexible compensation packages are probably more attractive to people right out of school, dual income families, single adults, or childless couples. I do think that this sort of package would tend to repel breadwinners from single income families or families with a number of children. I have to concur with Magnus here. The job I had as an SA before this one regularly came with a base bonus of 20%. I always made at least that. Why did I hate getting a bonus, then? Because when you accept it in lieu of being paid a salary -- as deferred compensation, or what-have-you -- it is no longer a bonus. It's if-we-feel-like-it salary on the part of management. If they take it away -- and they won't hesitate to do so, if they really need to -- boom, you're suddenly working for WAY below market rate for your skills, and good luck convincing your next company that you're worth (your salary) * (1.bonus). Will this happen at Google? Damned if I know -- and that's the point. But this is just a feeling on my part, based on my experience; Aaron obviously feels that it was well worth the risk, and I certainly can't say he was wrong. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was simply saying that I did take a hard look at the base salary, and the other unlikely-to-change benefits of the team I would be working with, etc - and decided that was enough for me to make the decision to move to CA and work for Google. It was only after-the-fact, that I figured out that it was even possible that my monetary compensation would be in the realm where I would be grinning from ear to ear, instead of simply happy and making a good living. :) As for the stable paycheck vs unstable compensation thoughts, I'm definitely not in the has a large family to support category. I honestly don't think I would have uprooted my family and moved 3,000 miles across the country if my wife and I had kids. The opportunity came at just the right time in my life, and for that I am grateful. On the flip side, I come from a rather conservative family, and have a very conservative financial mindset. I have been in a position where I was essentially running a small business doing consulting work, with a truly unstable source of income. It's not a job I would look forward to doing again until I'm independently wealthy. :) If it comes down to personal advice, I would suggest doing as I did, and ensure you can make the monthly budget work on the offered base salary, and nothing else. The rest is icing on the cake. It's just a matter of considering which icing you'd rather have, a few extra K guaranteed per year, or a really awesome group of guys to work with and the possibility of huge truckloads of cash. :) At least that's my world view, Aaron S. Joyner So: I did not consider bonuses as a numerical part of my salary at the jobs I was considering in 2006, as all the companies I had an interest in were large (more than a couple thousand) and publicly traded. I might consider it for a small, flat company where I had a distinct and measurable influence as an employee. Guess what I heard? No bonus for IT in 2006 at my old company. I hated to be proved right for the sake of my ex-co-workers. Perhaps working there had this cynical influence on my attitude which you all in TriLUG land are probably contrasting with Aaron's at this very moment. Aaron, you made a bunch of other interesting and valid points which I will respond to at some point in the near future. Any other almost-was Googlers on the list? I'm getting quite curious, now. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ :
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Aaron S. Joyner wrote: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was simply saying that I did take a hard look at the base salary, and the other unlikely-to-change benefits of the team I would be working with, etc - and decided that was enough for me to make the decision to move to CA and work for Google. It was only after-the-fact, that I figured out that it was even possible that my monetary compensation would be in the realm where I would be grinning from ear to ear, instead of simply happy and making a good living. :) You're totally right -- you did say that. My apologies if I misrepresented you there; I was more agreeing with Magnus than disputing your decision-making process. It's just a matter of considering which icing you'd rather have, a few extra K guaranteed per year, or a really awesome group of guys to work with and the possibility of huge truckloads of cash. :) Sergey and Larry are the ones with the huge truckloads of cash. The opportunity for huge truckloads of cash is not to be found at a post-IPO company. ;) --bak -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
bak wrote: Aaron S. Joyner wrote: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was simply saying that I did take a hard look at the base salary, and the other unlikely-to-change benefits of the team I would be working with, etc - and decided that was enough for me to make the decision to move to CA and work for Google. It was only after-the-fact, that I figured out that it was even possible that my monetary compensation would be in the realm where I would be grinning from ear to ear, instead of simply happy and making a good living. :) You're totally right -- you did say that. My apologies if I misrepresented you there; I was more agreeing with Magnus than disputing your decision-making process. It's just a matter of considering which icing you'd rather have, a few extra K guaranteed per year, or a really awesome group of guys to work with and the possibility of huge truckloads of cash. :) Sergey and Larry are the ones with the huge truckloads of cash. The opportunity for huge truckloads of cash is not to be found at a post-IPO company. ;) --bak No, that's airplane-loads of cash(1). :) I don't expect to become a millionaire while working at Google. I'm just tickled pink to be working on one of the world's largest computing infrastructures, with some of the world's smartest people, and making a daily difference in the world of Google. Aaron S. Joyner 1: http://valleywag.com/tech/larry-and-sergey/sergey-and-larrys-google-jet-mapped-185809.php -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Aaron, Sounds cool! As for me, I'd never be so naive as to reply to the whole list *again* when I interested in a job offer. That would just be silly! I really do appreciate they way you continue to think about us TriLUGgers. Thanks much, Aaron. Good day. Israel On 2/15/07, Aaron S. Joyner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, as you've possibly heard both in the news, or on this very list, Google is opening a data center facility in North Carolina. No, this facility is not in or immediately near Raleigh, and for that I do apologize. :) The location is in Lenoir, NC, which for those who might not know is around 3 hours west from Raleigh, proper(1). It's a reasonably small town, not too far from Hickory which isn't that much larger, but I hear they have good broadband out that way. :) (0) To boot, land and housing is also quite cheap (dirt cheap compared to what I'm now used to out in Silicon Valley). I suspect it will become quite the happening place as there will be at least several dozen very sharp Linux Geeks moving into the area in the near future. We are already beginning to interview and hire for this location, and will be doing so aggressively over the next several months. We're hiring for all manner of positions, from what we call Data Center Technicians (DCT) on up through Systems Administrators (SA). The DCT positions are a good fit for persons with some to moderate Linux user-level and administration knowledge, and a fondness for hardware and interesting hardware-related problems. It is also often a good career path towards the SA positions, as well as the NetOps, Project Management, traditional Management, and other interesting areas of work. The System Administration position is for persons with at least intermediate to senior SA skills. To put that sentence in perspective, I use the terms junior by the definitions you'd expect to find used outside of Google. Don't think because it's Google that you're batting out of your league, I turned down resume requests from recruiters for a long time over that, and I often wonder what it would have been like if I hadn't. :) Having said all that, let me tack on two things. The Google interview process is both highly educational, and a real treat in-and-of itself. Even if you're not sure you would be interested in moving to Lenoir, or if you'd make it through the interview process, I'd strongly encourage you to try it. I promise you'll learn at least a dozen things you'd never thought of along the way. In addition to the sheer educational value, it's really quite a fun experience to just geek out for a few hours with some of the smartest, most technically challenging and interesting people you're likely to meet this year. So, what now? Send me a resume, and I'll punch it into our internal recruit-tracking system, along with a friendly recommendation. You'll likely hear back from a recruiter by mid next week, at the latest. As a friendly reminder, you probably want to reply directly to me, not to the list. Aaron S. Joyner 0 - http://www.trilug.org/pipermail/trilug/Week-of-Mon-20070115/046024.html 1 - http://tinyurl.com/3cwowy (Google Maps showing location of Lenoir) 2 - http://joyner.ws/Google-Interview.html -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Bear with me for a minute, I haven't discussed this with more than a couple people in the last six months, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to do so now. As someone who was offered an SA job at Google last year and turned it down, I would describe my experience with the Google interview process as prolonged (i.e. about 3 months) and somewhat aggravating, consisting of two phone screens, followed by an on-site interview of epic length, during which I was grilled in half a dozen hour-long interviews on various UNIX, scripting, networking, and SA-related topics at a depth of something like 300 meters. I must have acquitted myself fairly well, because they offered me the job. But the fact that they had free food, drinks, and scooby snacks didn't really make up, in my mind, for their middling salary offer -- the recruiter even told me at the interview that they compensate for the salary with their benefits, free ski trips, free food and t-shirts, etc. This is an argument that would have pulled more weight with me had I been just out of college, but not so much at this stage in my life. And the We're Google factor didn't make up for the fact that none of the techie interviewers made the time to answer my questions about what working at Google was like, except for the last guy, who reluctantly gave me five minutes. Career path? Work environment? We're Google! Our benefits are great! Don't ask questions, we have to double our workforce next year! Perhaps this is not an unreasonable attitude to encounter at a company like Google, but I have to admit that it worried me a great deal. So I took the job I'd been offered here in RTP for a couple thousand less -- and it turns out that I can easily afford a house here and rub shoulders with half of the techies and nerds on the east coast (the other half are in NYC it seems :), whereas in Northern California I would be renting and probably wind up with a roommate. Would I have taken the Google job if it were here in NC instead of in CA, or if I were a software guy instead of an SA? Almost certainly! But Google is a company like any other company; they just have this thing about saying Don't Be Evil a bunch of times, having an impossibly huge server farm, and giving out Kool-Aid, and I've heard the same it's awesome! and it's insane! stories from Google employees that I've heard from countless other folks. So thanks for putting up with my little rant. I guess my point is this: don't sell yourself short! Quality techies are in demand, and the company with the best co-workers, leadership, and compensation wins. The prospect of free food is nice and all, but as an adult, I have learned to feed myself. :) Maybe I should have had Taco Bell like Aaron before my Google interview -- I went to In-N-Out. :) --bak Aaron S. Joyner wrote: Having said all that, let me tack on two things. The Google interview process is both highly educational, and a real treat in-and-of itself. Even if you're not sure you would be interested in moving to Lenoir, or if you'd make it through the interview process, I'd strongly encourage you to try it. I promise you'll learn at least a dozen things you'd never thought of along the way. In addition to the sheer educational value, it's really quite a fun experience to just geek out for a few hours with some of the smartest, most technically challenging and interesting people you're likely to meet this year. So, what now? Send me a resume, and I'll punch it into our internal recruit-tracking system, along with a friendly recommendation. You'll likely hear back from a recruiter by mid next week, at the latest. As a friendly reminder, you probably want to reply directly to me, not to the list. Aaron S. Joyner 0 - http://www.trilug.org/pipermail/trilug/Week-of-Mon-20070115/046024.html 1 - http://tinyurl.com/3cwowy (Google Maps showing location of Lenoir) 2 - http://joyner.ws/Google-Interview.html -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
You, sir, chose wisely ;) [1] William --snip-- Maybe I should have had Taco Bell like Aaron before my Google interview -- I went to In-N-Out. :) --bak --snip-- [1] In-N-Out rocks. I wish it were out here on the east coast. If you haven't tried it, you need to. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On Feb 15, 2007, at 9:30 AM, William Sutton wrote: [1] In-N-Out rocks. I wish it were out here on the east coast. If you haven't tried it, you need to. Went to SCaLE in LA last weekend. Got my usual Double Double, animal style, with Fries and Strawberry shake. The place was packed at 3pm in the afternoon. -T ___ Tarus Balog, OpenNMS Maintainer Main: +1 919 533 0160 The OpenNMS Group, Inc. Fax:+1 503 961 7746 Skype: tarusb Direct: +1 919 647 4749 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]URL: http://www.opennms.org PGP Key Fingerprint: 8945 8521 9771 FEC9 5481 512B FECA 11D2 FD82 B45C -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On Thursday 15 February 2007 10:12, Tarus Balog wrote: On Feb 15, 2007, at 9:30 AM, William Sutton wrote: [1] In-N-Out rocks. I wish it were out here on the east coast. If you haven't tried it, you need to. Went to SCaLE in LA last weekend. Got my usual Double Double, animal style, with Fries and Strawberry shake. The place was packed at 3pm in the afternoon. I lived in LA 1980-1998, and never encountered SCaLE. What is it? SteveT Steve Litt Author: Universal Troubleshooting Process books and courseware http://www.troubleshooters.com/ -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
I have to second Tarus on the animal style double double. I usually go for the 'well-done' fries as well. Aargh, starving now. My sources tell me that Cook-Out is the thing that comes closest in NC, and it's but a pale imitation. --bak William Sutton wrote: It's not even 10:35 and you've made me hungry :} -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
It's not even 10:35 and you've made me hungry :} -- William Sutton On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Tarus Balog wrote: On Feb 15, 2007, at 9:30 AM, William Sutton wrote: [1] In-N-Out rocks. I wish it were out here on the east coast. If you haven't tried it, you need to. Went to SCaLE in LA last weekend. Got my usual Double Double, animal style, with Fries and Strawberry shake. The place was packed at 3pm in the afternoon. -T ___ Tarus Balog, OpenNMS Maintainer Main: +1 919 533 0160 The OpenNMS Group, Inc. Fax:+1 503 961 7746 Skype: tarusb Direct: +1 919 647 4749 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]URL: http://www.opennms.org PGP Key Fingerprint: 8945 8521 9771 FEC9 5481 512B FECA 11D2 FD82 B45C -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On 2/15/07, bak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sources tell me that Cook-Out is the thing that comes closest in NC, and it's but a pale imitation. What about 5 guys? -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
5 Guys is lame in comparison. I'd rather eat at Fuddruckers than 5 Guys. -- William Sutton On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Grant Shipley wrote: On 2/15/07, bak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sources tell me that Cook-Out is the thing that comes closest in NC, and it's but a pale imitation. What about 5 guys? -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Grant Shipley wrote: On 2/15/07, bak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sources tell me that Cook-Out is the thing that comes closest in NC, and it's but a pale imitation. What about 5 guys? 5 Guys is the closest I've had since relocating to this coast, and it comes very close indeed. Definitely on-par; no animal-style, though. --Jos -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
so now im conused! should I apply or not.. ;) Jason On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 09:13:57AM -0500, bak wrote: Bear with me for a minute, I haven't discussed this with more than a couple people in the last six months, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to do so now. As someone who was offered an SA job at Google last year and turned it down, I would describe my experience with the Google interview process as prolonged (i.e. about 3 months) and somewhat aggravating, consisting of two phone screens, followed by an on-site interview of epic length, during which I was grilled in half a dozen hour-long interviews on various UNIX, scripting, networking, and SA-related topics at a depth of something like 300 meters. I must have acquitted myself fairly well, because they offered me the job. But the fact that they had free food, drinks, and scooby snacks didn't really make up, in my mind, for their middling salary offer -- the recruiter even told me at the interview that they compensate for the salary with their benefits, free ski trips, free food and t-shirts, etc. This is an argument that would have pulled more weight with me had I been just out of college, but not so much at this stage in my life. And the We're Google factor didn't make up for the fact that none of the techie interviewers made the time to answer my questions about what working at Google was like, except for the last guy, who reluctantly gave me five minutes. Career path? Work environment? We're Google! Our benefits are great! Don't ask questions, we have to double our workforce next year! Perhaps this is not an unreasonable attitude to encounter at a company like Google, but I have to admit that it worried me a great deal. So I took the job I'd been offered here in RTP for a couple thousand less -- and it turns out that I can easily afford a house here and rub shoulders with half of the techies and nerds on the east coast (the other half are in NYC it seems :), whereas in Northern California I would be renting and probably wind up with a roommate. Would I have taken the Google job if it were here in NC instead of in CA, or if I were a software guy instead of an SA? Almost certainly! But Google is a company like any other company; they just have this thing about saying Don't Be Evil a bunch of times, having an impossibly huge server farm, and giving out Kool-Aid, and I've heard the same it's awesome! and it's insane! stories from Google employees that I've heard from countless other folks. So thanks for putting up with my little rant. I guess my point is this: don't sell yourself short! Quality techies are in demand, and the company with the best co-workers, leadership, and compensation wins. The prospect of free food is nice and all, but as an adult, I have learned to feed myself. :) Maybe I should have had Taco Bell like Aaron before my Google interview -- I went to In-N-Out. :) --bak Aaron S. Joyner wrote: Having said all that, let me tack on two things. The Google interview process is both highly educational, and a real treat in-and-of itself. Even if you're not sure you would be interested in moving to Lenoir, or if you'd make it through the interview process, I'd strongly encourage you to try it. I promise you'll learn at least a dozen things you'd never thought of along the way. In addition to the sheer educational value, it's really quite a fun experience to just geek out for a few hours with some of the smartest, most technically challenging and interesting people you're likely to meet this year. So, what now? Send me a resume, and I'll punch it into our internal recruit-tracking system, along with a friendly recommendation. You'll likely hear back from a recruiter by mid next week, at the latest. As a friendly reminder, you probably want to reply directly to me, not to the list. Aaron S. Joyner 0 - http://www.trilug.org/pipermail/trilug/Week-of-Mon-20070115/046024.html 1 - http://tinyurl.com/3cwowy (Google Maps showing location of Lenoir) 2 - http://joyner.ws/Google-Interview.html -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
RE: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
Subject: Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC so now im conused! should I apply or not.. ;) Jason [Jim Ray pontificates] what's wrong, man? Cisco not good enough for ya? -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Grant Shipley wrote: On 2/15/07, bak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sources tell me that Cook-Out is the thing that comes closest in NC, and it's but a pale imitation. What about 5 guys? 2 weeks ago I would have recommended Cheeburger Cheeburger as the best burger place in town, but they closed all their NC stores. :( - -- Benjamin Reed a.k.a. Ranger Rick Fink, KDE, and Mac OS X development http://www.racoonfink.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF1Ld5Uu+jZtP2Zf4RAjPNAKCfGFAqhKPbkki0WvH4Kc+I4mu7XgCfYyMm CkZdlllHXfnZzwM76qY7KQs= =DvkD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
2 weeks ago I would have recommended Cheeburger Cheeburger as the best burger place in town, but they closed all their NC stores. :( Where did you see this? I was just at the one at Briar Creek a couple of weeks ago and there was no sign of this. Nor is there a press release from the company about it. -- o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o Scott C Suehle [EMAIL PROTECTED] o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
On Feb 15, 2007, at 3:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2 weeks ago I would have recommended Cheeburger Cheeburger as the best burger place in town, but they closed all their NC stores. :( Where did you see this? I was just at the one at Briar Creek a couple of weeks ago and there was no sign of this. Nor is there a press release from the company about it. I was there this weekend, and it's closed. Little note in the window and everything. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
Re: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
So sad. -- o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o Scott C Suehle [EMAIL PROTECTED] o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
RE: [TriLUG] Positions with Google in NC
2 weeks ago I would have recommended Cheeburger Cheeburger [Jim Ray pontificates] no pepsi. Coke. -- TriLUG mailing list: http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/
