date:20050515

http://www.americademy.com/charles_wesley.htm
Whitefield's preaching was such as England had never heard before, theatrical, extravagant, often commonplace, but hushing all criticism by its intense reality, its earnestness of belief, its deep tremulous sympathy with the sin and sorrow of mankind.
It was no common enthusiast who could wring gold from the close-fisted Franklin and admiration from the fastidious Horace Walpole, or who could look down from the top of a green knoll at Kingswood on twenty thousand colliers, grimy from the Bristol coal-pits, and see as he preached the tears "making white channels down their blackened cheeks."
On the rough and ignorance masses to whom they spoke the effect of Whitefield and his fellow Methodists was mighty both for good and ill. Their preaching stirred a passionate hatred in their opponents. Their lives were often in danger, they were mobbed, they were ducked, they were stoned, they were smothered with filth. David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lance wrote: That was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David Kevin). These are quite different cultural contexts.Not really that different, certainly not as different as the culture of the New Testament people and now. People use the different culture argument not to believe Jesus too, but that does not make it right. What about the American culture of the 18th century makes it so different that open air preaching would be ok then but not now?Have you ever read John Wesley's journal? The culture of man really hasn't changed all that much. Some scholars tend to make the culture difference bigger than it really is. Wesley kept nice accounts of his daily activities and so we get a pretty nice picture into his culture. The attitude toward public preaching then was very much like it is now.Peace be with
you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

Bible or EXCathedra?Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have read the collected works of Wesley including his journals. David,David etc. the culture has changed since I was a young man, never mind sinceWesley's era. Goodness sake, man, are you 'unplugged'?- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 14, 2005 12:09Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Lance wrote: That was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David Kevin). These are quite different cultural contexts. Not really that different, certainly not as different as the culture ofthe New Testament people and now. People use the different culture argumentnot to believe Jesus too, but that does not make it right. What about the American culture of the 18th
century makes it so different that open air preaching would be ok then but not now? Have you ever read John Wesley's journal? The culture of man reallyhasn't changed all that much. Some scholars tend to make the culture difference bigger than it really is. Wesley kept nice accounts of his dailyactivities and so we get a pretty nice picture into his culture. The attitude toward public preaching then was very much like it is now. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe

Raymond: Judy, Do you really believe that he is 'mocking' in the same way? Do you really?

"And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek..." (Ether 12:26a)Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and went on to appear with Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
The Proverb says "fools mock at sin" Kevin is mocking error like Elijah. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fools mockKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

'gods in embryo'

gods in embryo? ROTFL, most of these guys can't run their homes how are they gonna run a planet?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Perry: Raymond, you are very smooth. You almost had me believing that you worship the same Jesus and God that Terry worships.
Raymond: I worship the Father in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.
Perry: You see, the God of the Bible never was a man.
Raymond: Have you never read that we are created in His image (Gen 1:26-27), or that His Son Jesus Christ is in His express image and likeness (Heb 1:1-3).
Perry: He has no beginning and no end.
Raymond: That's true.
Perry: He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Raymond: In reference toHis Godhood, that is true.
Perry: There were none before Him, and there will be none after Him.
Raymond: For one, that's not true; and for two, I don't think you understand what your own statement.Perry: So He can't be the same one you worship, who your religion claims was once a man (from a planet near the star Kolob, no less)...who had a father...who was a god...who once was a man...who had a father, and so on.
Raymond: Refusing to use appropriate capitalization won't help you. Consider the following--
"And[Jesus Christ] hath made us kings and priests unto God [our Heavenly Father] and his Father [our Heavenly Grandfather]; to him [Jesus Christ] be glory and dominion forever and ever.Amen." (Rev 1:6)
Perry: Infinite regression...infinite 'gods'.
Raymond: That's 'infinite progression.' Consider the following--
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Ps 90:2)
"But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps 103:17-19)
"Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD." (Ps 104:48)
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (1Cor 3:18)
-- How do you think one moves from everlasting to everlasting and from glory to glory?Answer this -- if you have understanding. Do you really know the things of the eternities?
Perry: So, the small 'g' god's son can't be Jesus Christ the Son of the living God of the Bible.
Raymond: Jesus is a God with a capital "G." LDS Christians are gods with a small "g," because we are 'gods in embryo' having received the word of God.
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent forth into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:32-36)Perry: Is the godhead you mention the Trinity, or three separate gods?
Raymond: The Godhead is mentioned three times in the New Testament. They are three separate Gods. Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are united in doing the will of the Father. They stand as one, united in purpose. Hence-- The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God or Godhead. The will of the Godhead being manifested through Jesus Christ during His ministry (Col 2:9). The 'Trinity' is a doctrine first proposed by Origin in the second century AD. It was further developedby Tertullion and adopted by the Roman Catholic Church during the 4th and 5th centuries. The doctrine of the Trinity replaced the doctrine of the Godhead.
Perry: Isn't that called polythesim?
Raymond: No, although I accept the existence of many Gods -- I only worship one. Polytheism is the worship of many gods.
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

Yes, CW has shown herself INTOLERANTDavid Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Caroline wrote: Someone I don't know, trust, believe or even like shouting at me stuff that is offensive to my ears is disturbing my right to peace and quiet and my right to be unmolested and intimidated when I enter my place of worship.Hmmm. Is there a problem with tolerance here? You don't have a right to quietness when you are outside your "place of worship" (place of worship? -- another topic that needs addressing at another time). When you are inside your "place of worship" then you have a right to quietness. Those who want quietness in public places do not really believe in free speech.Caroline wrote: What if it wasn't a Street Preacher on the video but Skin Heads, NeoNazis or Satanists cursing you while you're trying to get into a meeting?Cursing is another issue entirely, but if
they were out in front of my "place of worship" rebuking those attending church, that would be just fine. That is what freedom of speech is all about. More than that, I would very much welcome it because it would cause those entering to examine themselves whether they be in the faith. What is dangerous is when you have nobody in society rebuking the sinners within it. Some of the church hypocrites need some rebuking, even if it were to come from Satanists. If you know any who want to rebuke Christians, please send them over to my church meeting place.Caroline wrote: Is there any law in America that you could use to stop them or are they totally protected by the ACLU too?Our Constitution protects the right of speech in public places. Does Canada have any laws that protect free speech? Are most Canadians against free speech?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts

Are you the Pope of Canada?Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IFF my opinion differed from God's opinion then, you'd have a point.But..- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 14, 2005 10:32Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts Lance, I find that YOU are the man guilty of this. DM carefully lays out his reasons for what he believes, with scripture. YOU make pronouncements with no backing at all. YOU act as the "voice of God', with nothing but your own opinion to back up your own opinion. Agreed? Izzy -Original Message- So then David, 'raise your voice' if you wish but, do not, please, equate your utterances on this matter as equal to the 'voice of God'. -- "Let your speech be
 always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

While you are looking for the INHERITANCE and Heirship for Satan.
Can you find a reference to any ANGEL being a brother?

Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:39:21 -0700 (PDT)Implied by the text, seenotice that he is 'the accuser' who is 'cast down,' and at no time is he referred to as a brother because he's not.First, your reasoning is flawed. Isn't your statement above like someone saying that you are not a human because no one ever referred to you as one? (I am not implying anything by that example, it just cane to mind). We cannot assume things are not so because they are not stated. It is that and similar fallacies that work throughout the mormon deception.Second, I would say that if he (Satan) is at no time referred to as a
 brother, it just may be that he is not and has never been a brother of Jesus, or you, for that matter. You must have gotten that from some heretical extra-biblical reference. Besides, why would Jesus refer to the devil as the Pharisee's father (Jn 8:44) if indeed he was their brother? Can he be their father and brother at the same time? If he is no longer their brother, can he then become their father?Ray, these mormons have really twisted things up. Repent, because it is appointed to man to die once, and then the judgement.Perry--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

Hey Raymond how about a TESTIMONY of what God is doing in your life right now?Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When you Mormons cannot provide an orthodox answer to the question 'Who domen say that I am' then, there ain't much point in the talkin' 'bout the'condiments' Were this statement to be reversed wouldn't you (Mormons)expect an Amen? (do you Amen anything?).- Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 14, 2005 14:08Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers? From: Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers? Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:39:21 -0700 (PDT)  Implied by the text, see--  --notice that he is 'the accuser'
 who is 'cast down,' and at no time ishe referred to as a brother because he's not. First, your reasoning is flawed. Isn't your statement above like someone saying that you are not a human because no one ever referred toyou as one? (I am not implying anything by that example, it just cane tomind). We cannot assume things are not so because they are not stated. It is that and similar fallacies that work throughout the mormon deception. Second, I would say that if he (Satan) is at no time referred to as a brother, it just may be that he is not and has never been a brother of Jesus, or you, for that matter. You must have gotten that from some heretical extra-biblical reference. Besides, why would Jesus refer to the devil as the Pharisee's father (Jn 8:44) if indeed he was their brother?Can he be their father and brother at the same time? If he is no longer
 their brother, can he then become their father? Ray, these mormons have really twisted things up. Repent, because it is appointed to man to die once, and then the judgement. Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you
 will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

Thanks Terry, that really cuts to the chase!Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lance Muir wrote:I have read the collected works of Wesley including his journals. David,David etc. the culture has changed since I was a young man, never mind sinceWesley's era. Goodness sake, man, are you 'unplugged'?== Cultures change with time and with geography. The message remains the same. God hates sin as much today as He ever did.Terry=--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
 he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

God anoints men to speak his mind, and those within the culture want to stop them from doing what they are doing. Some deride and express their disdain for what these men do, others throw pies or stones or spit in their face, yet others try to kill them.
Well I can tell you this "CULTURE" has not changed
They hated preachers in the OT they hated them in the NT and sinners still hate correction.
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lance wrote: David ... the culture has changed since I was a young man, never mind since Wesley's era. Goodness sake, man, are you 'unplugged'?LOL. Don't worry, I'm plugged into God. What else matters?Look, we agree that cultures differ in both time and space. The question is, has culture changed so much that the style of preaching that John Wesley did is now irrelevant? I think not. If you have read Wesley, you know that he faced the same kind of obstacles that public preachers today face. His trepidation toward public preaching is similar to many public preachers today, and the reactions he received also is similar. He was opposed by the "orthodox" and those within the institutional system of Christianity. William Booth is another man who reports the same. In this aspect, the culture really has not changed in
 thousands of years. God anoints men to speak his mind, and those within the culture want to stop them from doing what they are doing. Some deride and express their disdain for what these men do, others throw pies or stones or spit in their face, yet others try to kill them.Do you think the culture has changed so much that the kind of teaching and preaching that Jesus Christ himself did is no longer valid? Do you think the culture has changed so much that instead of crucifying Jesus Christ, society instead would give him a Nobel Peace Prize and elect him President?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to
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Re: [TruthTalk] THE GREAT APOSTASY

The gospel has been preached since the times of Adam. Do you remember that Abel offered sacrifices to the Lord? Where do you think that he learned that from? Adam? But how would he know how to offer sacrifices to the Lord? Do you remember the skins of animals given to Adam and Eve before they left the Garden of Eden? Where do you think those skins came from?
Done with those other subjects already? Cut run?

OK new subject:
Why did the LDS Visitors center at the Salt Lake Temple have Adam Eve at an ALTAR offering fruit vegatables? HOW SHOCKING! They are offering the same as CAIN!A Bloodless sacrifice, rejected of God. There is even a little lamb resting alongside.
http://www.helpingmormons.org/TLC_Manti/PhotoAlbum/Other%20Photos/Adam%20and%20Eve%20Sacrifice.html

Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

THE GREAT APOSTASY
The gospel has been preached since the times of Adam. Do you remember that Abel offered sacrifices to the Lord? Where do you think that he learned that from? Adam? But how would he know how to offer sacrifices to the Lord? Do you remember the skins of animals given to Adam and Eve before they left the Garden of Eden? Where do you think those skins came from?Adam and Eve were taught before leaving the Garden, "And I [the LORD God] will put enmity between thee [the serpent] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Gen 3:15)After leaving the Garden, Adam and Eve had many "sons and daughters." (Gen 5:4) Cain rebelled and some of the other children. Although Adam and Eve had righteous children, it was not enough to detour the wickedness of those in rebellion. "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled
with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen 6:13)Noah and Melchizedek taught the people after the flood. But as the people spread began to have a disregard for holy matters. Terah (the father of Abraham and Nachor) and some of his forebears were among those that forsook the Lord. "... Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood [the Euphrates] in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood [the Euphrates], and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed and gave him Isaac. And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt..." (Josh 24:2b-4)As apostasy continued among the descendants of Noah, it began to effect the Children of Israel. The Lord called upon Moses to
deliver them out of Egypt. Then a law was given to them: a preparatory law that would focus their attention upon the Messiah. They also fell into apostasy and Jesus rebuked the people saying, "Do you think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
Yet the Lord went forth and establish the gospel again among the children of men. Through His atonement, He did away with the lesser ordinances of the law. "Botting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Col 2:14) He called apostles, seventies, elders, bishops, and other officers to guide the affairs of His Church under His Direction. "And he [Jesus] gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfection of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of
men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" (Eph 4:11-14)But the prophets prophesied that before the return of the Lord that there would be a great apostasy. "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered." (Isa 29:10-11) "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north ever to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it." (Amos 8:11-12)This apostasy would begin during the Lords own ministry. "From that

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

bondage yes. hell? It is for freedom that Christ
sets up free. Some people never find it, some don't. It takes time. I could
explain but I fear it'll fall on deaf ears.

Love,

Caroline

- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:24
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts
on Genesis 1

I wouldn't put it off on God Caroline, we are
responsible for our own actions. I recall an incident in a Church
we used to go to where a friend of mine had a Word of
Knowledge given her about a regular brother who was a Church regular
andin the habit of going to the altar every
time there was an altar call for any reason. She confronted him with
what the Lord had shown her and he
acknowledgedit was true - He went on to say that he knew he could go to
hell but that he liked what he was doing. Just like thepedophile priests in the RCC. Until they learn to hate the
sin as much as God hates it - and then want to be free more than anything else, they will continue in
thisbondage that leads to destruction both for them and their
victims. judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:09:25 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Regarding my comment on intentional
sin

jt: None that I know of,
under Levitical law they were cut off from the people. We are told
not to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and how does one get drunk or
commit adultery unintentionally? Drunkards and fornicators do not
inherit God's Kingdom. Under both Covenants it would take genuine
repentance which BTW is also a gift and since this is out of our control
(other than our willingness and desire) it should cause humility and godly
fear. judyt

Caroline:
The first 5 chapters of Leviticus speak
about atonement for unintentional sin. When I started reading Leviticus, I
was freaking out because there does not seem to be atonement for
intentional sin and all of us humans have been guilty of sinning
intentionally at least once in our lives. Then there is Leviticus 6. Then
there is the New Covenant. Judy, you're saying that if someone repents,
then they are forgiven and that this is a gift from God.

Now we come to a pivot point. If it is God's
desire that all men are reconciled to Him, then He gifts them with genuine
repentance. And He is almighty so I can't see why He'll fail. But if God
desire that some go to hell and some to heaven..

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




Are we all assuming this man was confessing pedophilia? Or was he 
confessing something else like anger or sloth or is that all perversion to you, 
Terry? I know some here believe they don't sin but some here regularly confesses 
to the Lord. Are those who regularly confess sins in their prayer Christian 
perverts?

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 10:55 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts 
  on Genesis 1
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent 
  repentor is lost or hell bound?
Real simple John. When the same sin is a continuous part of your 
life, your trips to the alter are bogus. Who is the sinner 
serving? Christ, or himself? It doesn't take a community to 
figure it out. Try to remember that. Some day there will be a 
test.Terry

  
  
  
  
  
  So we can comment sin, as long as it is not the same sin? 
  I mean, sin is a part of us (if we say that we have no sin,we 
  deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us). Grace only 
  works when we cease sin? 

  



  
  
  
  Find me one Christian pervert in the Bible, John. Just one.

Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE Missing Books

In your mind is a reference to an external work an admission of lost books?
In your mind is an admission of shortcomings , such as below, the same as a refernce to an external work?
Paul quoted a PAGAN should we include the Whole Pagan Book?
Did the Bible command you to read the supposed missing books? The BoM cmds you to read Zenos, where is it?

The TESTIMONY of the Book O Mormon
"And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." Title page Book of Mormon 

"I would inform you that I translated by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon; which said account some person or persons have stolen and kept from me" Preface to the original Book of Mormon.
116 pages stolen from Joe  God? Anything important in there?

"and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record" Mormon 9:33 

"I think this sacred, but if I err, excuse me" 1Nephi 19:6
Please no errors when it comes to mens souls!

"written according to my memory" Esther 5:1 
"written to the best of my knowledge" Jacob 7:26 

Where are the records of Zeniff refered to in Mosiah 25:5 
How about the words of Zenoc, Neum and Zenos 1Nephi19:10 
Or the written word of Zenos and Zenock Alma 33:3,13,15 
Was the word lost? If so why were they not restored during the restoration? For that matter , in the "fullness of the gospel" where are the lost books? 

"read the words of the prophet zenos" Jacob 5:1 and Jacob 6:1 
Where are this prophets words now? Lost? Anything important in it? HOW CAN I READ IT AS COMMANDED???
The Journal of Discourses Vol 3 pg. 347 says only 1/3 of the plates translated. Where are the other 2/3 and what is contained in them? Is it important? Faults, errors, according to mans memory  knowledge, mistakes, partial accounts, imperfections, lost prophets and lost portions/books, stolen sections, only 1/3 translated; hardly a faith promoting testimony! Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



THE HOLY BIBLE  Missing BooksIf you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Books missing from the BibleBook of the Covenant Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.Book of the Wars of the LordNumbers 21:14 Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,Book of JasherJoshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow:
 behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.) Manner of the Kingdom1 Samuel 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house. Book of Samuel the Seer1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,Nathan the Prophet1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of
 Nebat?Acts of Solomon1 Kings 11:41 And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? Shemaiah the Prophet2 Chronicles 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.Prophecy of Ahijah
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?Story of Prophet Iddo2 Chronicles 13:22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet Iddo.Visions of Iddo the Seer2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE - Errors

If the Bible claims to be without error and you find some it is therefore a lying book toss it aside and get yourself some good fanatasy books.

The Bible is indeed reflective of the humanity that wrote it.

- Original Message - 
From: Bothoms 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 14, 2005 15:51
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors

THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors
If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." (1Chr 19:18)
DID THE LORD REPENT?
Compare Gen 6:6 with Num 23:19
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Gen 6:6)
"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num 23:19)
WAS THE PROPHECY GIVEN BY JEREMIAH OR ZECHARIAH?
Compare Matt 27:9-10 with Zech 11:13
"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; and gave them for the potters field, as the Lord appointed me." (Matt 27:9-10)
"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE - Errors

No just reflective of your low view of scriptureLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The Bible is indeed reflective of the humanity that wrote it.

- Original Message - 
From: Bothoms 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 14, 2005 15:51
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors

THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors
If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." (1Chr 19:18)
DID THE LORD REPENT?
Compare Gen 6:6 with Num 23:19
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Gen 6:6)
"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num 23:19)
WAS THE PROPHECY GIVEN BY JEREMIAH OR ZECHARIAH?
Compare Matt 27:9-10 with Zech 11:13
"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; and gave them for the potters field, as the Lord appointed me." (Matt 27:9-10)
"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

Lance wrote .and God loves sinners today as much as ever He has.Amen?...and that is why he sends Preachers

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Lance wrote
.and God loves sinners today as much as ever He has.Amen?- Original Message - From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 14, 2005 15:20Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] StreetPreaching Lance Muir wrote: I have read the collected works of Wesley including his journals. David, David etc. the culture has changed since I was a young man, never mindsince Wesley's era. Goodness sake, man, are you 'unplugged'? == Cultures change with time and with geography. The message remains the same. God hates sin as much today as He ever did. Terry =
-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out!

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] _THE_HOLY_BIBLE_-_Errors?=

I think the most rediculous thing I ever heard was a professing believer who said they believed God made everthing in the whole universe
I asked was God smart enough  powerful enough?
Ans: yes

So God could create all the huge plus all the minutia, all the sciences and all the mechanisms in your body, BUT he can not put some INK on Paper? Ludicrous!Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Sorry Judy but, unless you're privy to information that no one else 'nose', it was written by men.

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 14, 2005 16:18
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] _THE_HOLY_BIBLE_-_Errors?=

Only humanity did not write it - Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, the Bible
is a supernatural book - it is only foolishness to the natural mind which does not understand the things of the
Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:07:46 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The Bible is indeed reflective of the humanity that wrote it.

From: Bothoms 
THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors



If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." (1Chr 19:18)
DID THE LORD

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching




A great verse that bolsters Paul's argument that 
all Israel will be saved because God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 


I wonder what can we apply this verse 
to?

What gifts and calling have been given to us? 
Salvation? gasp!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin 
  Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
  [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
  
  What scripture tells us to check the culture?
  You watch too much TV!
  
  Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are 
  without repentance.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  That 
was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David  Kevin). These 
arequite different cultural contexts.- Original Message 
- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
Sent: May 14, 2005 10:37Subject: [Bulk] 
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong 
wrote:  I've met many Christians from many different 
churches  and denominations (including 
Methodist/Wesleyan)  and never came across a Street 
Preacher. The father of the Methodist/Wesleyan tradition was 
John Wesley. He was a street preacher who first preached outside 
while standing on his father's grave because those of the religious 
establishment didn't want him intheir pulpit. If it were not for 
street preachers, there would be no Methodists or Wesleyans. I 
encourage you to read more about John Wesley and hisfield 
preaching. Wesley first observed George Whitefield open air preaching 
and described it as disorderly. Wesley seemed to think of it like 
some of the detractors here in this forum, describing it as "almost 
a sin." Afteropen air preaching for 33 years, Wesley still 
described it as a cross to him,but he knew his commission and 
could see no other way to preach the gospel to every creature. The 
bottomline is that God used John Wesley mightily in open air 
preaching and he could not deny the results. Many of us have similar 
testimonies. I grew up in the Methodist tradition too, and I 
never saw someonepreaching outside until I was well into my 
twenties. This is sad, because Jesus did it, the apostles did it, it 
is in the Bible, and it is found in the tradition of the Methodists, 
Salvation Army, Puritans, and even in the history of evangelists 
like Billy Graham. Peace be with you. David 
Miller. -- "Let your speech be 
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to 
answer every man." (Colossians 
4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to 
receive posts from this list, send an email 
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have 
afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail 
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, 
seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to 
receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell 
him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.
  
  
  Yahoo! MailStay connected, organized, and protected. Take the 
tour

Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing Alpha

Let's just finally admit that you and I both call
ourselves Christian but we don't worship the same God, follow the same Jesus or
is filled by the same Holy Spirit and leave it at that. I hope and pray truth
prevails. I trust you do to. I hope and pray that people aren't crushed and
wounded by what we believed, that good seeds are planted and weeds are removed
in each person that we meet and that we bring people closer to God and not drive
them away. I'm sure you do to.

In High School, my English teacher said it was
difficult to define irony. I don't have to define it; I live it.

- Original Message -
From:
Kevin
Deegan
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing
Alpha

So you have connected the dots.

ALPHA? The FORCE be with you:
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/news/alpha_news/alpha_nov_2002_web.htm
Rome sees Alpha as a means to ensnare unwary unsaved people into its net. Rome
is happy to let Alpha do the work, so long as it gains in numbers.
http://www.pfo.org/alpha-cr.htm

1. The God of Alpha is not the God of the
Bible. ... it does not present us with the God who has revealed Himself
in the Bible. ... It simply fails to tell us anything we need to know about
God.

2. The plight of man in Alpha is not as serious
as in the Bible. ... Alpha does not use strong terms and leaves
us rather unclear about where we stand. As one follows its argument, sin is
more to be seen in the way we have messed up our lives.... For all the
gravity of sin, Alpha never allows us to feel too bad about
ourselves. It never permits us to see ourselves in Gods sight. That is a
big omission.

3. The Jesus Christ of Alpha is not the Jesus
Christ of the Bible. ... despite having part of the course titled
Why did Jesus die?, it is unable in the final analysis to answer
this question. ...

4. The love of God in Alpha is not the love of
God of the Bible. ... The God of the Bible is love but it is love that
is seen in His willingness to save sinners. ... without the context of Gods
holiness and absolute perfection, the meaning of love is lost to us.
...

5. The Holy Spirit of Alpha is not the Holy
Spirit of the Bible. ... Alphas Spirit appears to work in ways
that lie outside the confines of Scripture. Whoever it is that people
are introduced to at the Alpha Weekend, it is not the Holy Spirit.
But whoever this mysterious guest is, he is equally at home with the
ecstatic gatherings of New Age enthusiasts and
non-Christian religions alike.

6. Conversions in Alpha are not like the
conversions in the Bible. ... More often than not it is an emotional
experience about the love of God but without any understanding of
holiness or the need to be saved from our sins. ... For all its efforts,
Alpha does not help us to know God. It does not describe the true and
living God for us. It does not diagnose mans condition accurately enough.
... it is unable to supply us with the good
news.10
Alpha is just new window dressing on the old Holy Ghost
bartender theme, the Toronto theme and the Brownsville reruns. It
could be retitled Steps to Frenzy or Finding God in My
Feelings, or Letting Out the Animal Inside. The result is not
unlike the old Esalen groups, primal scream therapy or the lunacy of a drug
experience.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

Caroline I noted you are involved with Alpha, are
you also involved with the Toronto Blessing and aware of the
following?
This is from an Australian publication.
judyt

TITLE:Toronto Blessing leads to RomeTEXT:An
unbelievable exodus has been occuring from Protestant Churches to the Roman
Catholic Church. Seeing is believing - here is one site where
you can see ex-pastors from Protestant Churches as well as sects making the
shift. These people believe that are returning or converting to the
true faith. The Catholic Church is boasting of the many hundreds that are
now coming home. Apostacy has taken a giant step. Assemblies of God
pastors who once felt the presence of God at Toronto are now feeling the presence of Jesus in the eucharist. They
are reading into Scripture to support their new beliefs just as they were
before. Rodney Howard
Browne brought Toronto to the Catholic Church in 1997.

According to a report on the November 1997, Charisma magazine, Rodney
Howard-Browne took his phenomenon to the Presentation Blessed Virgin Mary
Catholic Church in Philadelphia. More than 1,200 Catholics, many from far
distances, attended the meeting in August.

Charisma magazine noted that "Catholics laughed hysterically after they
were hit with

Re: [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

Raymond: The fact is that you are twisting Scripture for your ownagenda. The passage is not discussing 'who are the children of God or not.'
read it real slow Ray:"these are not the children of God"
What does that mean?

RAYMOND says Just because you find"not the children of God" doesn't mean it's being used in the passage in the way you want.

Then tell us how it is really being used!

My comment on it does not matter:
Lets use some logic here I know logic is a trick of the devil for LDS but:
If ALL people are Gods children and all gentiles are people
THEN
all gentiles are God's children

OK so far?
context is gentiles and gentiles being people should; according to LDS, be God's children.
The scripture says that in the context of GENTILES
They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God
Some "children" are "not children of God"
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin: RM 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Raymond: The verse that you are using is out of context. Read verses 6 and 7 this is concerning the Gentiles under the new covenant being able to enter into the Abrahamic Covenant. (Something that Gentile members were not allow to do under the Old Covenant.).
Kevin: Point is some are "not the children of God" It does not matter if the context says gentiles, you claim all are.

Raymond: The fact is that you are twisting Scripture for your ownagenda. The passage is not discussing 'who are the children of God or not.' The passage is about the Gentile members being allowed to enter the Abrahamic Covenant. Just because you find"not the children of God" doesn't mean it's being used in the passage in the way you want.

Raymond: But since twisting Scripture "does not matter" to you, I'll dish it back---
"... [Judas] went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5) "... Go,and do thou likewise" (Luke 10:37)

If you don't like that, then use the Scriptures properly. And don't try to tell me that it's a matter of understanding the same passage of Scripture differently because I don't believe that is the case. I don't believe you read the passage -- you just did a search and used the passage without reading it. When I called you on it, you sought to defended it by writing that it "does not matter." Well, it does !
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

Since you made that up why don't YOU go preach it?

Are you trying to be cutesy?
Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I believe that many of you preach the 'gospel of qualifications'. If you qualify then, you get in.

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 14, 2005 16:24
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching


God has loved the sinner as much as He is ever going to love him in sending His ONLY begotten to die for them. It is now up to the sinner. Does he want to cling to what God hates and go with it into eternity - or will he repent and let go of his iniquity and sin so he can embracea new reality in Christ... jt


On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:14:08 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:.and God loves sinners today as much as ever He has.Amen?From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cultures change with time and with geography. The message remainsthesame. 
God hates sin as much today as He ever did.Terry
Lance Muir wrote:I have read the collected works of Wesley including his journals. David,David etc. the culture has changed since I was a young man, nevermindsinceWesley's era. Goodness sake, man, are you 'unplugged'?
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fox news

2005-05-15 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: Bummer!

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  I believe it was the previous thursday.
  
  Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  DAVEH:
What day did it run, Kevin?

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  The changed the date  already ran it. I have a copy
coming on cd.
  The ADF said it has generated additional interest in the
case.
  
  ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  



Kevin, I
didnt see your interview on Fox last night. Was it pre-empted by the
landslide in NY, or did I miss it? Izzy

Have fun
online with music videos, cool games, IM  more. Check
it out!

  
  

  
  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Founder of Mormonism, was Mormon Underwear, was bapti sm

The Scriptures testisfy that there are only two churches---
one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil
Which one are we TT's in?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin: What is with you pompous scriptorians in the LDS church. What makes you LDS so PRIDEFUL?
Raymond: It's not a matter of pride. We know that the things we teach are given by God. We have testimonies from God. We are willing to stand for those testimonies even to the laying down of our lives. You may think that we are misled, but we have knowledge that you do not. When the Holy Ghost bears testimony that is greater than the witness of any man. Know this, if you fight against this Church, you fight against God. If you fight against it's members, you fight against the servants of God.

The Scriptures testisfy that there are only two churches---
"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whose belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1Ne 14:10)Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I can battle you toe to toe. Further, scurrilous and vicious attempts to slander my Church - may have me going on the offensive. I don't think you want that. I'd blow you out of the water and show you just how sandy a foundation you are built upon.
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You are. It means that you are without knowledge. It's differentfrom the word stupid; which I don't think you are. Why ignorant, because you think you know so much concerning my Church, but you know so little. You really do need to study more. Further, I've been on the defensive. Most Latter-day Saint when challenged like this choose to remain on the defensive. On the defensive, I can battle you toe to toe. Further, scurrilous and vicious attempts to slander my Church - may have me going on the offensive. I don't think you want that. I'd blow you out of the water and show you just how sandy a foundation you are built upon.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Who is ignorant?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin--
Slander (and ignorance) will get you nowhere.
--RaymondKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Satans footprints are all over your "religion" because he is the father of it.
Joe was an occultist, "seized" by Satan see JSH 1"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Blaine: Yeah, I read it, Kevin. I am off work today, so have plenty of time. All it seems to be saying is that whenever the Saints are about to receive spiritual gifts, or other manifestations of God's love and mercy, the "man of sin," or the devil, tries to block it. He is the opposition. He works through you, Kevin, as you go to great lengths to discourage us from learning the truth. Wierd, though, often what you write has the opposite of your intended effect. It sure does on me. I actually enjoy some of what you dig up. LOLANYONE INTERESTED IN FOLLOWING this?Joe meets the ANGEL of LIGHT and is SEIZED and binds tongueJSH http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1 I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocallyAfter I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer
up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction I saw a pillar of lightWhat is with the SPIRIT of DUMBNESS?HC V1 p 175 HC chap XVON the 3rd1 of June, the Elders from the various parts of the country where they were laboring; Important came in; and the conference before appointed, convened in Kirtland; and the Lord displayed His power to the most perfect satisfaction of the Saints. The man of sin was revealed,2 and the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the EldersfootnoteThe manner in which the man of sin was revealed and the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood manifested is related by John Whitmer
in his History of the Church (ch. 7). After giving the names of those who were ordained High Priests the day on which the two powers were manifested he says: Joseph Smith, Jun. prophesied the day previous that the man of sin would be revealed While the Lord poured out His Spirit upon His servants the devil took a notion to make known his power He bound Harvey Whitlock and John Murdock so that they could not speak, and others were affected but the Lord showed to Joseph, the seer the design of the thing he commanded the devil in the name of Christ and he departed to our joy and comfort. CAN YOU SEE THE SIGNS?Parley P Pratt Autobiography p

Re: [TruthTalk] Founder of Mormonism, was Mormon Underwear, was bapti sm

we have knowledge that you do not.

What is this knowledge, can you demo?

"I can battle you toe to toe.
we have knowledge that you do not.
I'd blow you out of the water"
And this is not POMPOUS or PRIDEFUL?

I don't know what lead someone else to infer that you were a kid.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Who is ignorant?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin--
Slander (and ignorance) will get you nowhere.
--RaymondKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] Founder of Mormonism, was Mormon Underwear, was bapti sm

Kevin: Do you work with Blaine?
Raymond: No, but hes a friend of mine.
?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Because according to the Scriptures, Satan can appear almost as an angel of light.
Kevin: Do you work with Blaine?
Raymond: No, but hes a friend of mine.
Kevin: What scripture are you "almost" referring to?
Raymond: Im referring to "... that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men..." (2Ne 9:9b) Satan, from time to time throughout history, has tried to deceive people by appearing like an angel of God.
Kevin: But why did your church say MORONi was an Angel of Light?
Raymond: An angel of light is an angel of God.
Kevin: They are the ones who publish the DC, right?
Raymond: Yes, but Mormon Doctrine is a work by Elder Bruce R. McConkie.
MORMON DOCTRINE?
In July 5, 1966, President McKay invited Elder McConkie into his office and gave approval for the book to be reprinted if appropriate changes were made and approved. Elder Spencer W. Kimball was assigned to be Elder McConkie's mentor in making those changes. So we have the later edition approved by the President and the future pres Kimball mentoring! So what is the problem? Why is it that you trash your own Apostles book? A book APPROVED by LDS President Prophet SEER McKay future Pres Kimball.In addition; the publisher was not McConkie, but BOOKCRAFT who was very careful to obey the Brethren! 2nd edition was issued in 1966 McConkie was called to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1972. So all editions after that were written by a MEMBER of the quorum.
Raymond: What is this accusation? I did not, as you put it, trash the book. What I wrote is: Have you read the book called Mormon Doctrine? Have you even seen it? It's one of the most popular books in LDS literature. I've read most of it. There is a lot of great information in it.
Kevin: It takes a pretty good imagination to believe that a man who flagrantly ignored the direction of the president of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, would be called to fill a vacancy in that body! No doctrine was ever repudiated by the President in the book Mormon Doctrine. No doctrinal changes have been instituted since its first printing almost 40 years ago, giving plenty of time to revise rectify any problems.Kevin: So are you saying you can't always trust a 70? Just like the prophet they will RARELY lead you astray?
Raymond: Youre making an assumption that Im opposed to the book; Im not. Where did you get that idea?
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Re: [TruthTalk] Founder of Mormonism, was Mormon Underwear, was bapti sm

back to square one
DC (printed by the church)says Moroni is an angel of light
If I look up angel of light in Mormon Doctrine it says "see DEVIL"
Therefore the LDS Church has admitted that Moroni is the DEVIL

By the way I was being facetious: Kevin: They are the ones who publish the DC, right?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

OtherChurches bear the name Jesus Christ, does that make them true too?
Your church did not always bear the name Jesus Christ does that make it false?
6 Apr 1830 -- Incorporated as The "Church of Christ" according to the laws of the New York
http://www.irr.org/mit/BOC/1833boc-p1.html
The name "Church of the Latter Day Saints" wasadopted3 May 1834 (NO Jesus)
http://www.irr.org/mit/DC/1835dc-p1.html
26 April 1838, Joefinally designated the name of his church DC 115:3-4

"OF" means derivation or coming from
Church of Jesus Christ Latter day saints
As far as it was translated correctly, itwas chosen by an uneducated farmer, the grammer is OK, but the meaning is that Jesus belongs to the LDS

If what you claim is true shouldthe correct translation,not be?
Church of Latter-day Saints of Jesus Christ?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
It says BE (present tense not future tense) it does not say "become" perfect. Are you?

Denigrate Scripture?
SEE EXHIBIT A your recent posts Bible errors missing books
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: My answers to Kevin's following accusations--
LDS: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints bears the name of our Savior.
Demote God: God is our Eternal Father in Heaven. He presented the Plan of Salvation to us.
Devalue Christ: He is our Messiah, the Lord God Omnipotent. He is our Redeemer.
Deify Man: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
Deny sin: Sin is an abomination before God. No unclean thing can enter into His presence.
Denigrate Scripture: We believe that God has taught men on Earth and that these teachings, prophecies, and revelations are recorded in the Scriptures. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

LDS
Demote God
Devalue Christ
Deify Man
Deny sin
Denigrate Scripture
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Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE Errors



The BIBLE TestimonyJesus NEVER cast doubt on the scriptures! Do you doubt God's word? The first recorded words in Genesis 3 from the DEVIL: "Yea hath God said...?" cast doubt on the word of God. Lets see what the testimony of the scriptures are concerning the scriptures 
1John 5:9 "if we recieve the witness of men the witness of God is greater" I prefer to trust God at his word! He said the wordswere eternal: Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shal not pass away" 1Peter 1:25 "the word of the Lord endureth forever" 
God's word is perfect, pure and preserved by God: Psalms 12:6-7 "Thou shalt keep them, OLord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever" 
Can be caught away by the wicked one: Matthew 13:19 
You can be mistaken by not knowing them and to know them they must be available: Matthew 22:29 "Ye do err not knowing the scriptures" Don't be in error on such an important topic! The Scribes and Pharisees made the word of no effect by not understanding not hearkening (listen - obey) and through tradition, rather than obeying and believing: Mark 7:13-14 "Making the word of God of none effect". Jesus then says "Hearken unto me every one of you and understand" It is to be recieved as the word of God not men and believed; not doubted: 1Thessalonians 2:13 "ye recieved it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" there is no profit in doubt: Hebrews 4:2 "the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith" Hebrews 11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please him" God's word framed the worlds: Hebrews 11:3. Some will not search the
 scriptures and come to Jesus to get eternal life: John 5:39-40 If you don't believe the written word how can you believe in Jesus? John 5:47 
Would you contend that the scripture can be tampered with inspite of what God says? Jesus said John 10:35 "the scripture can not be broken" All of it is profitable and inspired: 2Timothy 3:16 "all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction" Do you need correction or do you correct the word of God? We will be judged by it: John 12:48 "the word I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" God's words are pure, all of them: Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure" It is true even from Genesis onward: Psalms 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning" They are life: John 6:63 "they are life" 
In Matthew 4:4 Satan tempted Jesus by corrupting what the scripture said. ("yea hath god said?") But Jesus said "it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He then proceeds to qoute Old testament scripture showing us they are the words that come directly from God's mouth. All of it is there for a purpose and is reliable: in Matthew 5:18 he says "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass". These are not even letters but are the smallest marks possible in the language, similar to dotting an i or crossing a t. They are certain and true: Proverbs 22:20-21 "That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth" God's written word is more sure than being an eyewitness or hearing Gods voice: 2Peter 1:16-21 We can take them out of context leading to our own destruction: 2Peter 3:2-716-17 "led away with the error of the wicked" 
Is there any casting of doubt here? No! How do we get faith? Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" How is your faith in God's word? Surely a different Testimony than the Most corrected book on eath the Book of MormonBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors
If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE

Re: [TruthTalk] Founder of Mormonism, was Mormon Underwear, was bapti sm

PS 126 Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them.Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bothoms wrote: Kevin: What is with you pompous scriptorians in the LDS church. What  makes you LDS so PRIDEFUL? Raymond: It's not a matter of pride. We know that the things we  teach are given by God. We have testimonies from God. We are willing  to stand for those testimonies even to the laying down of our lives.  You may think that we are misled, but we have knowledge that you do not.==Have you ever thought about becoming a suicide bomber? There are openings.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be
 unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

How many dozens have you affected?
Remember you would not answer that one it is personal I suppose.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

This, of course, is not the objection. It is not "tolerance" that is in question, but effectiveness of ministry (not to mention rudeness). I personally believe that for everyone "brought to the Lord" via some form of the Screaming Ministry, there are dozens who effected in the very opposite way. I suppose that is why we see almost no street ministry out here on the left coast. Intervention ministries, benevolent ministries, home church programs, youth and campus ministries seem to be the things that work best and turn the lest number of people off.

Jd - back at long last

-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:19:26 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

Caroline wrote:
Someone I don't know, trust, believe or even like shouting at me
stuff that is offensive to my ears is disturbing my right to peace
and quiet and my right to be unmolested and intimidated when
I enter my place of worship.

Hmmm. Is there a problem with tolerance here? You don't have a right to
quietness when you are outside your "place of worship" (place of worship? --
another topic that needs addressing at another time). When you are inside
your "place of worship" then you have a right to quietness. Those who want
quietness in public places do not really believe in free speech.

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Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

Why should a Christian take advice from a Mormon?
I get a lot of advice from Satanists too.
They also prefer that we stop preaching.
They rec. handing out literature, which by the way they will not take.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

BLAINE: I think, Judy, your equating street preachers with OT prophets is going a bit far, huh? OT prophets most often got their messages across through working through the political establishment--kings, false priests, etc. While they did go about the streets, I cannot concieve of them yelling, screaming, using truth horns, as it were, carrying signs, etc. What they did do was always effective, mainly because they had the power of the spirit with them . . . These street preachers mostly just annoy people, make a spectacle of themselves. There must be a better way for them to communicate their messages, which in some instances might actually do some lost souls some good if they could be approached less obtrusively, and with a show of dignity--a virtue that seems lost on them.

In a message dated 5/14/2005 12:58:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the
scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of
this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt

On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948.

While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as he sauntered around preaching. His message was one of hell fire and brimstone...turn or burn. He sounded so angry.I had no problem with his message, but his method caused me to ask my wife, "Do you think this is really glorifying to God?" I question the method of standing on a street corner or in a public square and screaming out a gospel sermon. I thought, "If I was a lost person, how would I react to this man and his message?" After all, I am the one he would be targeting, so just how would I react? I have to say...with disgust. I would consider him to be a psych case...a cultist of a sort. Before the castigation starts, I am not questioning the man's motive nor his message...just his method. What do you think?

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Re: [TruthTalk] To Sir With Love

STOP being so CRITICAL!

Are you being HYPOCRITICAL for Criticizing Judy for supposedly being Critical?
Oh yeah forgot, Double Standards are okay for the ELITE.Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Blaine, I wrote that silly post in exasperation and weariness at Judy's remarks on To Sir With Love.To me she seems relentless about needing to criticize anything that doesn't fit her paradigm exactly.

Debbie


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] To Sir With Love


In a message dated 5/14/2005 5:59:57 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Another totally gratuitous panning, along with the entire RC church, the Toronto blessing, and Athanasius.

There's this lady who has a stencil of a flower, which she cut out herself and uses to paint borders on all her walls. Anytime she seesanother picture, she lays the stencil over it, and if it doesn't match exactly,that's how she knowsthe drawing is not a flower. Sometimes she positions the stencil upside down or sideways and doesn't even notice. She does this with real flowers too, and the petalsalways get crushed under the stencil.

Debbie

Blaine: I am not familiar with your point of view, Debbie; maybe that is the reason I don't get your point. The story of the woman with the stencils is to illustrate . . . ? Sorry I am so thick-headed today, maybe I did not get enough sleep last night--or maybe too much! __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

2005-05-15 Thread Dave Hansen

DAVEH: Were you apologizing to the LDS folks in SLC at Conference time,
or to the LDS on TT??? Either waythank you! I appreciate your
thoughtfulness and concern for how the gospel is preached.

I realize that most Christians do not want to be obnoxious in the
way they share their beliefs with others. Personally, I'm not all that
bothered by those who employ an in-your-face methodology of street
preaching. But I am concerned that many non Christians will find such
tactics so repulsive that they reject the gospel message outright
without allowing it to be shared with them due to their preconceived
notions based on their observations of just a few overly zealous Christians.

I also wonder who is converted by fanatical preachersjust other
fanatics perhaps? And, is using the examples of Biblical street
preachers a good reason to justify modern day fanatical/obnoxious preaching?

As far as listening to you (Christians) explaining your beliefs,
that is why I am here, Caroline. I find too often that I get less
explanation and more of a verbal thrashing though. Sometimes the
message is hard to hear when the voice is so overwhelmingly outrageous
and condescending.

Caroline Wong wrote:
It's not the preaching outside that I object to. It's the yelling at
people and insulting them that I object to. This is not dialogue or
apologetics; it's bullying. I can't imagine Jesus screaming whore
and harlot at Samaritan women. Something is very wrong here and as a
Christian, I protest. I do not agree with Mormon beliefs but I have
enormous respect for all those who endured the persecution with grace
and dignity. As a Christian, I would like to apologize to all the
Mormons here who were screamed at and insulted. Not all Christians are
like that and not all Street Preachers are like that. I hope you'll
give us another chance to explain our beliefs.

--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Must be an ERROR

God lost some of his word LOL
What a low opinion you have
How do you know the part you have is not messed up also?Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Both errors are likely. People could deliberately add words to bolster the text and make it sound better. In fact, Christianshave been known to write whole books and letters and attribute them to Paul or John or some other Apostle. There was a lot of controversy and uncertainty so adding words make things more plain.

Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like the ending to Mark or the story in John about the woman caught in adultery. Mark can be explained by saying the manuscript lost its ending but how do we explain John :-) We don't. We just put a note and say it's not in the early manuscripts. I like the story and I'm glad it's in my bible - even with that caveat.

If copyists lost words as they copied, the later manuscripts would have less words than the early ones.

Love,

Caroline

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Caroline wrote:
 Those 65,000 words were added and should be 
 removed so that what we have is the purer form. 

Caroline, please think about this. If YOU were copying the Bible for your reading later, what type of mistakewould you most likely make? Would it be more likely that you would omit words or add words? Think about it. Please tell me what your answer is.

Peace be with you.David Miller.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing Alpha

They pray to God in the name of Jesus. 
So do Mormons, ask one.Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I've been to the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship and I've taken a prayer conference there. You see everything manifestly - God, human spirits, demons. Quite a mix!

I'm not aware that the TACF is resulting in an exodus of Protestants back to the Catholic church. I've prayed with Charismatic Catholics before and those ladies are tremendous prayer warriors. They pray to God in the name of Jesus. That's the funny thing about prayer. It seems to break through all denominational lines.

We have quite a few ex-Catholics in our church and often have to tone them down a little. They are so virulently anti-Catholic. After a while, they can speak of their former church without going into rants about idolatry and the anti-Christ. :-) 

If Protestants are going to the Catholic church, I hope they bring with them traditions like personal scriptural study. There does seem to be a renaissance of Catholics reading and studying the bible. Some are even moving beyond prescribed prayer. Not many but it's a start. Perhaps they will reform the church.

Love,

Caroline

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing  Alpha

Caroline I noted you are involved with Alpha, are you also involved with the Toronto Blessing and aware of the following?
This is from an Australian publication. judyt

TITLE:Toronto Blessing leads to RomeTEXT:An unbelievable exodus has been occuring from Protestant Churches to the Roman Catholic Church. Seeing is believing - here is one site where you can see ex-pastors from Protestant Churches as well as sects making the shift. These people believe that are returning or converting to the true faith. The Catholic Church is boasting of the many hundreds that are now coming home. Apostacy has taken a giant step. Assemblies of God pastors who once felt the presence of God at Toronto are now feeling the presence of Jesus in the eucharist. They are reading into Scripture to support their new beliefs just as they were before. Rodney Howard Browne brought Toronto to the Catholic Church in 1997. 

According to a report on the November 1997, Charisma magazine, Rodney Howard-Browne took his phenomenon to the Presentation Blessed Virgin Mary Catholic Church in Philadelphia. More than 1,200 Catholics, many from far distances, attended the meeting in August. 

Charisma magazine noted that "Catholics laughed hysterically after they were hit with what Howard-Browne refers to as 'the joy of the Holy Ghost.'" Did the Holy Spirit convict them of error? No, Rodney H Browne just gave them a laugh and increased converts to the Roman Catholic Church. Alpha is also being hailed as bringing in more converts to the RCC then in its recent history and there is a nice blend of charismania and Mary worship in many parishes like this one:
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

What tribe are you?Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




A great verse that bolsters Paul's argument that all Israel will be saved because God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 

I wonder what can we apply this verse to?

What gifts and calling have been given to us? Salvation? gasp!

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

What scripture tells us to check the culture?
You watch too much TV!

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David  Kevin). These arequite different cultural contexts.- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 14, 2005 10:37Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong wrote:  I've met many Christians from many different churches  and denominations (including Methodist/Wesleyan)  and never came across a Street Preacher. The father of the Methodist/Wesleyan tradition was John Wesley. He was a street preacher who first preached outside while standing on his father's grave because those of the religious establishment didn't want him intheir pulpit. If it were not for street preachers, there would be no Methodists or
 Wesleyans. I encourage you to read more about John Wesley and hisfield preaching. Wesley first observed George Whitefield open air preaching and described it as disorderly. Wesley seemed to think of it like some of the detractors here in this forum, describing it as "almost a sin." Afteropen air preaching for 33 years, Wesley still described it as a cross to him,but he knew his commission and could see no other way to preach the gospel to every creature. The bottomline is that God used John Wesley mightily in open air preaching and he could not deny the results. Many of us have similar testimonies. I grew up in the Methodist tradition too, and I never saw someonepreaching outside until I was well into my twenties. This is sad, because Jesus did it, the apostles did it, it is in the Bible, and it is found in the tradition of the Methodists, Salvation Army, Puritans,
 and even in the history of evangelists like Billy Graham. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


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Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing Alpha

Let's just finally admit that you and I both call ourselves Christian but we don't worship the same God
You connected them too!
This is whatI have said all along. Did you know that Mormonism was the FIRST New Age religion?Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Let's just finally admit that you and I both call ourselves Christian but we don't worship the same God, follow the same Jesus or is filled by the same Holy Spirit and leave it at that. I hope and pray truth prevails. I trust you do to. I hope and pray that people aren't crushed and wounded by what we believed, that good seeds are planted and weeds are removed in each person that we meet and that we bring people closer to God and not drive them away. I'm sure you do to.

In High School, my English teacher said it was difficult to define irony. I don't have to define it; I live it.

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing  Alpha

So you have connected the dots. 

ALPHA? The FORCE be with you:
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/news/alpha_news/alpha_nov_2002_web.htm Rome sees Alpha as a means to ensnare unwary unsaved people into its net. Rome is happy to let Alpha do the work, so long as it gains in numbers.
http://www.pfo.org/alpha-cr.htm

1. The God of Alpha is not the God of the Bible. ... it does not present us with the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible. ... It simply fails to tell us anything we need to know about God.

2. The plight of man in Alpha is not as serious as in the Bible. ... Alpha does not use strong terms and leaves us rather unclear about where we stand. As one follows its argument, sin is more to be seen in the way we have messed up our lives.... For all the gravity of sin, Alpha never allows us to feel too bad about ourselves. It never permits us to see ourselves in Gods sight. That is a big omission.

3. The Jesus Christ of Alpha is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. ... despite having part of the course titled Why did Jesus die?, it is unable in the final analysis to answer this question. ...

4. The love of God in Alpha is not the love of God of the Bible. ... The God of the Bible is love but it is love that is seen in His willingness to save sinners. ... without the context of Gods holiness and absolute perfection, the meaning of love is lost to us. ...

5. The Holy Spirit of Alpha is not the Holy Spirit of the Bible. ... Alphas Spirit appears to work in ways that lie outside the confines of Scripture. Whoever it is that people are introduced to at the Alpha Weekend, it is not the Holy Spirit. But whoever this mysterious guest is, he is equally at home with the ecstatic gatherings of New Age enthusiasts and non-Christian religions alike.

6. Conversions in Alpha are not like the conversions in the Bible. ... More often than not it is an emotional experience about the love of God but without any understanding of holiness or the need to be saved from our sins. ... For all its efforts, Alpha does not help us to know God. It does not describe the true and living God for us. It does not diagnose mans condition accurately enough. ... it is unable to supply us with the good news.10
Alpha is just new window dressing on the old Holy Ghost bartender theme, the Toronto theme and the Brownsville reruns. It could be retitled Steps to Frenzy or Finding God in My Feelings, or Letting Out the Animal Inside. The result is not unlike the old Esalen groups, primal scream therapy or the lunacy of a drug experience.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Caroline I noted you are involved with Alpha, are you also involved with the Toronto Blessing and aware of the following?
This is from an Australian publication. judyt

TITLE:Toronto Blessing leads to RomeTEXT:An unbelievable exodus has been occuring from Protestant Churches to the Roman Catholic Church. Seeing is believing - here is one site where you can see ex-pastors from Protestant Churches as well as sects making the shift. These people believe that are returning or converting to the true faith. The Catholic Church is boasting of the many hundreds that are now coming home. Apostacy has taken a giant step. Assemblies of God pastors who once felt the presence of God at Toronto are now feeling the presence of Jesus in the eucharist. They are reading into Scripture to support their new beliefs just as they were before. Rodney Howard Browne brought Toronto to the Catholic Church in 1997. 

According to a report on the November 1997, Charisma magazine, Rodney Howard-Browne took his phenomenon to the Presentation Blessed Virgin Mary Catholic Church in Philadelphia. More than 1,200 Catholics, many from far distances, attended the meeting in August. 

Charisma magazine noted that "Catholics laughed hysterically after they were hit with what Howard-Browne refers to as 'the joy of the Holy Ghost.'" Did the Holy Spirit convict them of error?

Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe

Your out of CONTEXT there Ray, it has to do with SIN
FOOLS mock at sinBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Judy, Do you really believe that he is 'mocking' in the same way? Do you really?

"And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek..." (Ether 12:26a)Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and went on to appear with Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
The Proverb says "fools mock at sin" Kevin is mocking error like Elijah. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fools mockKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

'gods in embryo'

gods in embryo? ROTFL, most of these guys can't run their homes how are they gonna run a planet?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe

ETHER? that is nefarius if not Hilarious!
God is gonna mock you someday if you don't repent!
PROVERBS ONE How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; ...
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Judy, Do you really believe that he is 'mocking' in the same way? Do you really?

"And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek..." (Ether 12:26a)Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and went on to appear with Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
The Proverb says "fools mock at sin" Kevin is mocking error like Elijah. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fools mockKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

'gods in embryo'

gods in embryo? ROTFL, most of these guys can't run their homes how are they gonna run a planet?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE Errors

I am here just waiting for you to answer at least a couple of my questionsBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Judy: Here we go again..
The anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel against the advice of his military Cmdr
2 Sam 2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing; there is NO error.

Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. I guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take it.

In 2Sam 24:1, Satan is 'he.' So that it should be understood as "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, because [Satan] moved David againstthem to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." 1Chr 21:1 is then in agreement, but doesn't mention the Lord's anger.

That was only the first one on the list --- care to try any others?
THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors
If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." (1Chr 19:18)
DID THE LORD REPENT?
Compare Gen 6:6 with Num 23:19
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Gen 6:6)
"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath

RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

Read the rest of the post!
Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
See the ? that indicates a QUESTION
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Are you a nut?Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Have you noticed? Raymond is not able to answer any questions!
Q What color is your shirt?
A I like golf.

Q Which way to Canada?
A I Drive a chevy.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
Raymond: Yes, I have read Exodus. Take a look at the following
"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." (Ex 7:22-23)
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:15)
"Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:19)
"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Ex 8:32)
"And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 9:7)
"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children Israel go; as the LORD had spoken." (Ex 9:34-35)
"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1Sam 6:6)


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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

Kevin: Ishmael was cast out, was he no longer Abrahams son?

Raymond: Ishmael was not cast out -- he was sent away. He did not loose his inheritance.

What I'm talking about is Perdition and the children of Perdition. They are banished.
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gaves me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek: tartaros], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2Pet 2:4)Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ishmael was cast out, was he no longer Abrahams son?

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gen 10:13 also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
RB says "at no time is he referred to as a brother because he's not."
That is right, he never was a brother. Can you find a verse?
What was Satan's Inheritance that he lost?
What verses show his inheritance or heir - ship?

Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Implied by the text, see--
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil (ie. Slanderer), and Satan (ie. Adversary), which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:9-10)
--notice that he is 'the accuser' who is 'cast down,' and at no time is he referred to as a brother because he's not.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Satan has lost his inheritance and is no longer related to the children of our Father in Heaven -- that includes Jesus.
Were does the Bible teach that Satan is NO LONGER RELATED to his (ex) Brothers  Sisters?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

No, you're wrong. The answer is he was. Lucifer rebelled against God and was expelled from Heaven. Lucifer became Satan. Satan is an enemy to God. Satan has lost his inheritance and is no longer related to the children of our Father in Heaven -- that includes Jesus.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Though somewhat overlong, an answer at last! I believe you just said, yes he is. Am I correct?

- Original Message - 
From: Bothoms 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 11, 2005 16:45
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?


Hi Terry
Im glad to see that you are open-minded and willing to let me respond to these questions. If you dont mind, Id like to answer these questions one at a time.
DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE THAT JESUS AND SATAN ARE OR WERE BROTHERS?
To give a proper answer, this will take a bit of explanation. First, most non-LDS Christians believe in the pre-mortality of Jesus. We do also. We also believe that all who live on this earth, past and present, lived before with God in Heaven. We believe that God is literally the Father of our spirits.
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Heb 12:9)
"Have we not all one father?..." (Mal 2:10a)
"One God and Father of all..." (Eph 4:6a)
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl 12:7)
Being children of God we were all brothers and sisters. Jesus, known as Jehovah in the OT, was our Fathers firstborn.
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb 1:6)
In mortality, Jesus would be Gods Only Begotten.
Jeremiah was informed that he lived before he was born.
"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer 1:4-5)
Our Father presented a plan to us.
"And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my gloryto bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:38-40)
While we were in the presence of God we walked by sight; now, our memories are taken away and we walk by faith.
"There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after." (Eccl 1:11)
"And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?

Raymond: Ishmael was not cast out 

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?CAST out the bondwoman and her son
?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin: Ishmael was cast out, was he no longer Abrahams son?

Raymond: Ishmael was not cast out -- he was sent away. He did not loose his inheritance.

What I'm talking about is Perdition and the children of Perdition. They are banished.
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gaves me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek: tartaros], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2Pet 2:4)Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ishmael was cast out, was he no longer Abrahams son?

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gen 10:13 also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
RB says "at no time is he referred to as a brother because he's not."
That is right, he never was a brother. Can you find a verse?
What was Satan's Inheritance that he lost?
What verses show his inheritance or heir - ship?

Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Implied by the text, see--
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil (ie. Slanderer), and Satan (ie. Adversary), which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:9-10)
--notice that he is 'the accuser' who is 'cast down,' and at no time is he referred to as a brother because he's not.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Satan has lost his inheritance and is no longer related to the children of our Father in Heaven -- that includes Jesus.
Were does the Bible teach that Satan is NO LONGER RELATED to his (ex) Brothers  Sisters?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

No, you're wrong. The answer is he was. Lucifer rebelled against God and was expelled from Heaven. Lucifer became Satan. Satan is an enemy to God. Satan has lost his inheritance and is no longer related to the children of our Father in Heaven -- that includes Jesus.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Though somewhat overlong, an answer at last! I believe you just said, yes he is. Am I correct?

- Original Message - 
From: Bothoms 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 11, 2005 16:45
Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Are Jesus and Satan brothers?


Hi Terry
Im glad to see that you are open-minded and willing to let me respond to these questions. If you dont mind, Id like to answer these questions one at a time.
DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE THAT JESUS AND SATAN ARE OR WERE BROTHERS?
To give a proper answer, this will take a bit of explanation. First, most non-LDS Christians believe in the pre-mortality of Jesus. We do also. We also believe that all who live on this earth, past and present, lived before with God in Heaven. We believe that God is literally the Father of our spirits.
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Heb 12:9)
"Have we not all one father?..." (Mal 2:10a)
"One God and Father of all..." (Eph 4:6a)
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl 12:7)
Being children of God we were all brothers and sisters. Jesus, known as Jehovah in the OT, was our Fathers firstborn.
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb 1:6)
In mortality, Jesus would be Gods Only Begotten.
Jeremiah was informed that he lived before he was born.
"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer 1:4-5)
Our Father presented a plan to us.
"And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my gloryto bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:38-40)
While we were in the presence of God we walked by sight; now, our memories are taken away and we walk by faith.
"There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

There is a Theology for everyone out there.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Who says we are "saved in spite of" our sin? The idea is to let them go; sanctification is part of the salvation scenario.One can not be an acting pedophile and ATST comformed to the image of Christ. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:50:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent repentor is lost or hell bound?

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]



I wouldn't put it off on God Caroline, we are responsible for our own actions. I recall an incident in a Church
we used to go to where a friend of mine had a Word of Knowledge given her about a regular brother who was a Church regular andin the habit of going to the altar every time there was an altar call for any reason. She confronted him with what the Lord had shown her and he acknowledgedit was true - He went on to say that he knew he could go to hell but that he liked what he was doing. Just like thepedophile priests in the RCC. Until they learn to hate the sin as much as God hates it - and then want to be free more than anything else, they will continue in thisbondage that leads to destruction both for them and their victims. judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:09:25 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Regarding my comment on intentional sin

jt: None that I know of, under Levitical law they were cut off from the people. We are told not to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and how does one get drunk or commit adultery unintentionally? Drunkards and fornicators do not inherit God's Kingdom. Under both Covenants it would take genuine repentance which BTW is also a gift and since this is out of our control (other than our willingness and desire) it should cause humility and godly fear. judyt 

Caroline:
The first 5 chapters of Leviticus speak about atonement for unintentional sin. When I started reading Leviticus, I was freaking out because there does not seem to be atonement for intentional sin and all of us humans have been guilty of sinning intentionally at least once in our lives. Then there is Leviticus 6. Then there is the New Covenant. Judy, you're saying that if someone repents, then they are forgiven and that this is a gift from God. 

Now we come to a pivot point. If it is God's desire that all men are reconciled to Him, then He gifts them with genuine repentance. And He is almighty so I can't see why He'll fail. But if God desire that some go to hell and some to heaven..

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Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

I was an a witness. I DO NOT CONDONE ASSAULT. We were in a circle praying with eyes closed. There was a girl who requested prayer and was quite distraught. This guy was standing right there doing a sort of growling noise, for sometime. Making it hard to hear the prayer. He found the smallest guy there (he outwieghed him by 80 lbs) The victim could not even cry out, being assaulted from behind and in a choke hold. He dragged him down the sidewalk. Seems the guy was an LDS High Priest, some LDS took up a collection to help pay for his court costs. I believe he was charged with 2 felonies. Agravated assault can't remember the other charge. My pastor would not assault anyone, why do LDS High priests behave like Thugs?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



BLAINE: Questions for Kevin and Perry: I distinctly recall underwear being waved at General Conference in Salt Lake City, I recall a Mormon man reacting and attacking the wavers; were either of you involved in this?OR Did you condone it?



In a message dated 5/14/2005 6:17:13 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I agree with Lance and am glad you conduct yourselves as a Christian. How do you deal with the violent and angry sinners?

Love,

Caroline

- Original Message - 
From: Lance Muir 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

Thanks Kevin.

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 14, 2005 15:42
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

I do not chase people down the street, I just preach  do one on one discuss  teach, answer questions, and or pray with people. If they care not, that is between them  God I have discharged my responsibility. I try to conduct myself as a Christian. Try being lied about  slandered, put on TV for "calling people whores", having Christians repeat third hand stories they heard, Christians backpeddaling as fast as they can away from you, Dealing with the Authorities, Dealing with the angry sometimes violent sinners

I preach all kinds of events and surely do not preach "Hellfire  damnation" at the family events
I have never been arrested in over 20 years of preaching on a regular basis. I have led a good number of lost to the Lord. I just love telling people about my savior, can't shut my mouth, look what He did for me!ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









What Kevin says is not offensive to me in the least. I think when he preaches against sin it is only “offensive” to sinners. The same word of God either hardens or softens hearts. When I hear someone preach against sin like Kevin does it causes me to want to examine my own life to be sure I’m not also in need of repentance for some sin. I doubt that Kevin curses at anyone, or molests anyone. Maybe he can verify that for us. If you hate the ACLU I can agree with that! If Skin Heads, Nazi’s, etc. are cursing at me that’s a whole different matter—they are of satan, and so is cursing and molesting. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:32 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism


Someone I don't know, trust, believe or even like shouting at me stuff that is offensive to my ears is disturbing my right to peace and quiet and my right to be unmolested and intimidated when I enter my place of worship.

What if it wasn't a Street Preacher on the video but Skin Heads, NeoNazisor Satanists cursing you while you're trying to get into a meeting? Is there any law in America that you could use to stop them or are they totally protected by the ACLU too?



Love,



Caroline


- Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 4:25 PM

Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism



Caroline, do you believe that public preaching encroaches on your freedom? Izzy

Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

We took a leaf from your founding fathers: Your freedom ends when it encroaches mine. 

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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

LOL We don't preach sans shoes.

The command is clear and the last will of Jesus Christ
GO INTO ALL the WORLD and PREACH the GOSPEL to every creature

Blaine: Sorry, Kevin, but I still don't see it. Granted, the prophets of the OT were called upon by the Lord to do some strange things, strange probably even in those times. The difference as I see it is that they did what they did at the command of the Lord. You guys claim there is no new revelation, so how can you possibly be claiming that the Lord directed you to do any of those things. You boys stand in your own light, which is on dim--very very dim. :-)

In a message dated 5/14/2005 8:14:31 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Blaine says Can I see Jesus or any of his apostles resorting to this tactic?

IS 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Again you show your lack of experience with the scriptures. The OT prophets were told to do some pretty wierd things

Ez 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side
4:5 three hundred and ninety days
4;6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side
How is that for a witness?

Is 20:2 At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.
Jer 5:4 Therefore I said, Surely these are poor; they are foolish: for they know not the way of the LORD, nor the judgment of their God.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 5/14/2005 5:29:46 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David wrote: I grew up in the Methodist tradition too, and I never saw someone preaching outside until I was well into my twenties. This is sad, because Jesus did it, the apostles did it, it is in the Bible, and it is found in the tradition of the Methodists, Salvation Army, Puritans, and even in the history of evangelists like Billy Graham.Caroline:It's not the preaching outside that I object to. It's the yelling at people and insulting them that I object to. This is not dialogue or apologetics; it's bullying. I can't imagine Jesus screaming "whore" and "harlot" at Samaritan women. Something is very wrong here and as a Christian, I protest. I do not agree with Mormon beliefs but I have enormous respect for all those who endured the persecution with
grace and dignity. As a Christian, I would like to apologize to all the Mormons here who were screamed at and insulted. Not all Christians are like that and not all Street Preachers are like that. I hope you'll give us another chance to explain our beliefs.

BLAINE: Hear! Hear!, Caroline, you have my ear. David's rationale above is a classic example of the "reason" given by most street preachers to do what they do. Like you, I can hardly conceive of street preacher tactics ever being employed by Jesus, his apostles, OT prophets, Billy Graham, etc. You forgot to mention waving Mormon undies. Can I see Jesus or any of his apostles resorting to this tactic? I can't. Thank you for the apology, too bad you do not speak for the ones who actually offend.

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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  

  
  
  




[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  



  
 Are fat Christians save
  



  
  
  ===
  
  



  
  
  
  

Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

LOL Christian pervert is that like a female boyscout?

I guess the scriptures are correct after all

Prov 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.

Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 





If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent repentor is lost or hell bound?
Real simple John. When the same sin is a continuous part of your life, your trips to the alter are bogus. Who is the sinner serving? Christ, or himself? It doesn't take a community to figure it out. Try to remember that. Some day there will be a test.Terry






So we can comment sin, as long as it is not the same sin? I mean, sin is a part of us (if we say that we have no sin,we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us). Grace only works when we cease sin? 







Find me one Christian pervert in the Bible, John. Just one. 
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Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE Errors

I've been answering and answering. I'm still behind on my email. I don't have all of the free time that you obviously do.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond if we answer these will you commit to answer a few questions yourself?
Or is that not gonna happen?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Here we go again..
The anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel against the advice of his military Cmdr
2 Sam 2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing; there is NO error.

On Sat, 14 May 2005 12:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors
If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)


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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk]THE HOLY BIBLE void of Error

VOID OF ERROR --- prove it. Don't just make a statement; answer my challenges that I posted.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well I guess for one to know one must be in the faith.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Plenty of others have known these facts Lance; if I were a betting person I would wager that Terry, Kevin, Izzy, and DavidM know them for a start along with apostlesPeter (2 Peter 1:21) and Paul (1 Corinthians 2:14)judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:23:26 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Sorry Judy but, unless you're privy to information that no one else 'nose', it was written by men.

From: Judy Taylor 

Only humanity did not write it - Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, the Bible
is a supernatural book - it is only foolishness to the natural mind which does not understand the things of the
Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:07:46 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The Bible is indeed reflective of the humanity that wrote it.

From: Bothoms 
THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors



If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." (1Chr 19:18)
DID THE LORD REPENT?
Compare Gen 6:6 with Num 23:19
"And

Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe

I was quoting Ether.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Your out of CONTEXT there Ray, it has to do with SIN
FOOLS mock at sinBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Judy, Do you really believe that he is 'mocking' in the same way? Do you really?

"And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek..." (Ether 12:26a)Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and went on to appear with Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
The Proverb says "fools mock at sin" Kevin is mocking error like Elijah. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fools mockKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

'gods in embryo'

gods in embryo? ROTFL, most of these guys can't run their homes how are they gonna run a planet?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

I did and my reply was suited to it.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Read the rest of the post!
Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
See the ? that indicates a QUESTION
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Are you a nut?Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Have you noticed? Raymond is not able to answer any questions!
Q What color is your shirt?
A I like golf.

Q Which way to Canada?
A I Drive a chevy.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
Raymond: Yes, I have read Exodus. Take a look at the following
"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." (Ex 7:22-23)
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:15)
"Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:19)
"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Ex 8:32)
"And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 9:7)
"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children Israel go; as the LORD had spoken." (Ex 9:34-35)
"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1Sam 6:6)


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Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE =?windows-1252?Q?=96_Errors?=





Bothoms wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Judy: Here we go again..
  The anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel
against the advice of his military Cmdr
  2 Sam 2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing;
there is NO error.
  
  Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to
answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. I
guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take it.
  
  
  
  

=
There are things in the Bible that I do not understand, Raymond. That
does not mean that they are errors. It simply means that I do not
understand how it all fits together. Please do not assume that since I
cannot prove otherwise, that there are errors in the word of God.

That would be very foolish. I am not an expert.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE




Excellent response Terry; I don't find any of what 
Raymond posted changes much (for me). It certainly will not cause me to 
trust scripture any less and does not affect any 
major doctrine that I am aware of- It is all just petty stuff and since 
Jesus trusted scripture without question and these things happened and have been 
recorded and copied by so many ppl over such a long period of time it is a 
miracle thatthere are not more conflicts. You couldn't pass a story around 
a room full of ppl and have it return to the original storyteller exactly the 
same as it went out and you can be surethe adversaries have been over 
every inch of scripture with a fine tooth comb. I know there are answers 
to these other things but I am battling an allergic reaction to an antibiotic 
today so am not up to searching them out. I'll take the easier ones (that 
I know already). jt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:16:02 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
There are things in the Bible that I do not understand, Raymond. That 
does not mean that they are errors. It simply means that I do not 
understand how it all fits together. Please do not assume that since I 
cannot prove otherwise, that there are errors in the word of God. That 
would be very foolish. I am not an expert.Terry
Bothoms wrote: 

  




Judy: Here we go 
again..
The 
anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel against the advice of his 
military Cmdr
2 Sam 
2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing; there is NO 
error.

Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to 
answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. 
I guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take 
it.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Theology must be the operative word then - theology
void of truth. jt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

There is a Theology for everyone out there.Judy Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Who says we are "saved in spite of" our sin?
The idea is to let them go; sanctification is part of the salvation scenario.One can not be an acting
pedophile and ATST comformed to the image of Christ. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:50:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent
repentor is lost or hell bound?

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I wouldn't put it off on God Caroline, we are
responsible for our own actions. I recall an incident in a
Church
we used to go to where a friend of mine had a
Word of Knowledge given her about a regular brother who was a Church
regular andin the habit of going to the
altar every time there was an altar call for any reason. She
confronted him with what the Lord had shown her
and he acknowledgedit was true - He went on to say that he knew he
could go to hell but that he liked what he was doing. Just like
thepedophile priests in the RCC.
Until they learn to hate the sin as much as God hates it - and then want
to be free more than anything else, they will
continue in thisbondage that leads to destruction both for them and
their victims. judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:09:25 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Regarding my comment on intentional
sin

jt: None that I know
of, under Levitical law they were cut off from the people. We
are told not to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and how does one
get drunk or commit adultery unintentionally? Drunkards and
fornicators do not inherit God's Kingdom. Under both Covenants
it would take genuine repentance which BTW is also a gift and since
this is out of our control (other than our willingness and desire) it
should cause humility and godly fear. judyt

Caroline:
The first 5 chapters of Leviticus speak
about atonement for unintentional sin. When I started reading
Leviticus, I was freaking out because there does not seem to be
atonement for intentional sin and all of us humans have been guilty of
sinning intentionally at least once in our lives. Then there is
Leviticus 6. Then there is the New Covenant. Judy, you're saying that
if someone repents, then they are forgiven and that this is a gift
from God.

Now we come to a pivot point. If it is
God's desire that all men are reconciled to Him, then He gifts them
with genuine repentance. And He is almighty so I can't see why He'll
fail. But if God desire that some go to hell and some to
heaven..

__Do You
Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Are you saying there is no difference between the sacrifice of Christ and that of bulls and goats? If not, what did the death of Christ accomplished that was not accomplished in the sacrifices of bulls and goats?And,I am not responding to the "dog" illustration and the Heb 6 comments because such a response would required a great deal of attention. So, I have this one question, expressed above. 

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:02:48 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Both Hebrews and Peter speak of being enlightened and then returning to sin, Peter likens it to a dog
returning to it's vomit and I believe Hebrews 6:6 speaks of it being impossible to restore someone again
who has experienced certain things and then falls away. The difference between bulls/goats and Christ
has to do more with the Priest than the recipient. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 23:27:06 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




Doesn't Hebrews teach us that the difference between the sacrifice of bulls/goats and the sacrifice of the Christ is the fact that it is offered -- it was offered --- once and for all time? there is a sense in which we are all saved ("there is therefore now, no condemnation"). One is not saved until one commits a sin. That is clearly not a biblical teaching IMO. Are fat Christians saved?


-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:56:03 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Who says we are "saved in spite of" our sin? The idea is to let them go; sanctification is part of
the salvation scenario.One can not be an acting pedophile and ATST comformed to the image of Christ. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:50:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent repentor is lost or hell bound?

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]



I wouldn't put it off on God Caroline, we are responsible for our own actions. I recall an incident in a Church
we used to go to where a friend of mine had a Word of Knowledge given her about a regular brother who was a Church regular andin the habit of going to the altar every time there was an altar call for any reason. She confronted him with what the Lord had shown her and he acknowledgedit was true - He went on to say that he knew he could go to hell but that he liked what he was doing. Just like thepedophile priests in the RCC. Until they learn to hate the sin as much as God hates it - and then want to be free more than anything else, they will continue in thisbondage that leads to destruction both for them and their victims. judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:09:25 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Regarding my comment on intentional sin

jt: None that I know of, under Levitical law they were cut off from the people. We are told not to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and how does one get drunk or commit adultery unintentionally? Drunkards and fornicators do not inherit God's Kingdom. Under both Covenants it would take genuine repentance which BTW is also a gift and since this is out of our control (other than our willingness and desire) it should cause humility and godly fear. judyt 

Caroline:
The first 5 chapters of Leviticus speak about atonement for unintentional sin. When I started reading Leviticus, I was freaking out because there does not seem to be atonement for intentional sin and all of us humans have been guilty of sinning intentionally at least once in our lives. Then there is Leviticus 6. Then there is the New Covenant. Judy, you're saying that if someone repents, then they are forgiven and that this is a gift from God. 

Now we come to a pivot point. If it is God's desire that all men are reconciled to Him, then He gifts them with genuine repentance. And He is almighty so I can't see why He'll fail. But if God desire that some go to hell and some to heaven..

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism





Caroline Wong wrote:

  
  
  And what did Jesus mean when he
quoted Hosea, "But go ye
and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for
I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." 
  
  

Jesus was telling us what He preferred to see from us. He would rather
we be merciful to one another than offer sacrifices to God. If you
remember, by this time, God was sick of meaningless sacrifices,
offerings not from the heart, rituals. That is religeon. Mercy comes
from a loving heart.
Terry

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts


Kind of similar to a white man denying he is white.



And I have told you often that I am not a fundamentalist. 


Yahoo! MailStay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

Judy--

Jesus teaches us to have forgiveness in our hearts, not to be stupid.What they have done in the past; they have done again and again. I expect it will continue.

As for the extra books --- I'm an LDS Christian; and I've read them and I know what's in them. Why don't you read them and ask God if they are true? Would you rather, asa non-LDS Christian,depend upon man for your answers or God? I prefer to follow God and I know that God answers prayer.

--RaymondJudy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Further proof that Mormonism is different from our Christian faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even blessing those who oppose and curse you - and this is our example in spite of theNIV translaters who have tried to sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've learned that we are not responsible for the actions of others but
weare responsible before God for our ownreaction to what they say and do. The street preachers could be a test for you fellows - and if so it sounds like you have allflunked. But then all these extra books of yours probably teach something different because it is against the adversary's best interests for you to make it. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Raymond: It sounds like anger to me. Probably brought about because some people seek to harass us, intimidate us, threaten us, mock us, and refuse to leave us alone. Some people challenge us over and over. We answer, but it's as though they don't hear us. I guess that they really don't want to. They see something different, assume that it's wrong, and nothing will change their minds.
I believe that they would do worse if they could.. snip

Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and threatening?

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





No I'm not saying that. There is a 
difference. One lasted for a year and the other is eternal. One covered 
sin
and the other remits it on condition we separate 
ourselves from it. Sin is not remitted when we keep returning
to it - it's not even covered when this is going 
on. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:41:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Are you saying there is no difference between the sacrifice of Christ and 
  that of bulls and goats? If not, what did the death of Christ 
  accomplished that was not accomplished in the sacrifices of bulls and 
  goats?And,I am not responding to the "dog" illustration and the Heb 6 
  comments because such a response would required a great deal of 
  attention. So, I have this one question, expressed above. 
  
  
  From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  
  Both Hebrews and Peter speak of being enlightened and 
  then returning to sin, Peter likens it to a dog
  returning to it's vomit and I believe Hebrews 6:6 
  speaks of it being impossible to restore someone again
  who has experienced certain things and then falls 
  away. The difference between bulls/goats and Christ
  has to do more with the Priest than the 
  recipient. jt
  
  On Sat, 14 May 2005 23:27:06 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Doesn't Hebrews teach us that the difference between the sacrifice of 
  bulls/goats and the sacrifice of the Christ is the fact that it is 
  offered -- it was offered --- once and for all 
  time? there is a sense in which we are all saved ("there is 
  therefore now, no condemnation"). One is not saved until one 
  commits a sin. That is clearly not a biblical teaching 
  IMO. Are fat Christians saved?
  




-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:56:03 
-0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Who says we are "saved in spite of" our sin? 
The idea is to let them go; sanctification is part of
the salvation scenario.One can not be an 
acting pedophile and ATST comformed to the image of Christ. 
jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:50:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  If we are saved in spite of our sins, how is that this frequent 
  repentor is lost or hell bound?
  
  From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  
  I wouldn't put it off on God Caroline, we are 
  responsible for our own actions. I recall an incident in a 
  Church
  we used to go to where a friend of mine had a 
  Word of Knowledge given her about a regular brother who was a Church 
  regular andin the habit of going to the 
  altar every time there was an altar call for any reason. She 
  confronted him with what the Lord had shown her 
  and he acknowledgedit was true - He went on to say that he knew he 
  could go to hell but that he liked what he was doing. Just like 
  thepedophile priests in the RCC. 
  Until they learn to hate the sin as much as God hates it - and then want 
  to be free more than anything else, they will 
  continue in thisbondage that leads to destruction both for them and 
  their victims. judyt
  
  On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:09:25 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Regarding my comment on intentional 
sin

  jt: None that I know 
  of, under Levitical law they were cut off from the people. We 
  are told not to allow the sun to go down on our wrath and how does one 
  get drunk or commit adultery unintentionally? Drunkards and 
  fornicators do not inherit God's Kingdom. Under both Covenants 
  it would take genuine repentance which BTW is also a gift and since 
  this is out of our control (other than our willingness and desire) it 
  should cause humility and godly fear. judyt 
  
  Caroline:
  The first 5 chapters of Leviticus speak 
  about atonement for unintentional sin. When I started reading 
  Leviticus, I was freaking out because there does not seem to be 
  atonement for intentional sin and all of us humans have been guilty of 
  sinning intentionally at least once in our lives. Then there is 
  Leviticus 6. Then there is the New Covenant. Judy, you're saying that 
  if someone repents, then they are forgiven and that this is a gift 
  from God. 
  
  Now we come to a pivot point. If it is 
  God's desire that all men are reconciled to Him, then He gifts them 
  with genuine repentance. And He is almighty so I can't see why He'll 
  fail. But if God desire that some go to hell and some to 
  heaven..

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1


Is gluttony a sin?-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:14:08 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 










[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




 Are fat Christians save 






===Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting




Forgiving ppl is not stupid Raymond - and you can be 
sure what is in ones heart will come out of their mouths. When we forgive we are 
obeying Jesus and doing things God's way, (leaving the vengeance with Him) and 
this is whenHe will undertake for us as He has promised. When we 
take thing upon ourselves - we're out there alone and we've got 
them.

I don't need to read the extra books to know they are 
false Raymond. Paul (personally chosen by Jesus himself) wrote "But though 
we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we 
have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8) - which is pretty 
strong IMO. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Judy--
  
  Jesus teaches us to have forgiveness in our hearts, not to be 
  stupid.What they have done in the past; they have done again and 
  again. I expect it will continue.
  
  As for the extra books --- I'm an LDS Christian; and I've 
  read them and I know what's in them. Why don't you read them and ask God 
  if they are true? Would you rather, asa non-LDS 
  Christian,depend upon man for your answers or God? I prefer to 
  follow God and I know that God answers prayer.
  
  --RaymondJudy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  

Further proof that Mormonism is different from our 
Christian faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even 
blessing those who oppose and curse you - and 
this is our example in spite of theNIV translaters who have tried to 
sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've learned that 
we are not responsible for the actions of others 
but
weare responsible before God for our 
ownreaction to what they say and do. The street preachers could 
be a test for you fellows - and if so it sounds 
like you have allflunked. But then all these extra books of 
yours probably teach something different because 
it is against the adversary's best interests for you to make it. 
 judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Raymond: It 
sounds like anger to me. Probably brought about because some people seek to 
harass us, intimidate us, threaten us, mock us, and refuse to leave us 
alone. Some people challenge us over and over. We answer, but it's as though 
they don't hear us. I guess that they really don't want to. They see 
something different, assume that it's wrong, and nothing will change their 
minds.
I believe that 
they would do worse if they could.. 
snip

  
  Kevin: I 
  have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an 
  easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and 
  threatening?

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Kind of similar to a white man denying he is white.
  
  
  
  
And I have told you often that I am not a fundamentalist. 
  
  Had to laugh. Couldn't help it.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Is gluttony a sin?

  
  

=
Yes, it is, but all obese folks are not gluttons.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if you 
are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:

Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like 
siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son who 
would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 
21:20)

These two are also mentioned in tandemin Proverbs 
23:20
Isaiah 5:21,22
Luke 21:34,35
Romans 13:13,14
Ephesians 5:18,19


On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just 
  as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.
  

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  Are fat Christians save

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

First, I didn't write that forgivess is stupid. What I was telling you was that Jesus wants us to forgive, but not to be stupid. If an enemy cames against you, again, and again, and again -- it would be stupid the think it that he would not do so another time. I know that vengence belongs to the Lord, as most LDS Christians do. We turn the other cheek over and over again.

As for not reading the 'extra books,' I say you are afraid of truth. Either, that or you don't believe that God answers prayer. I'm not afraid of truth and I know that God does answer prayer.

Further, you didn't even wait for an angel to deceive you. You freely choose to be out of harmony with the Lord and the teaching of his apostles. The New Testament, itself, is a witness against you. The Lord organized His Church to have certain offices that are to be maintained -- you reject that. The Lord's Church has authority that is given to those in the ministry to administer the gospel -- you reject that. The Lord organized only one Church and does not allow denominations -- you reject that. Yes, you are already removed from the gospel that Paul preached.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Forgiving ppl is not stupid Raymond - and you can be sure what is in ones heart will come out of their mouths. When we forgive we are obeying Jesus and doing things God's way, (leaving the vengeance with Him) and this is whenHe will undertake for us as He has promised. When we take thing upon ourselves - we're out there alone and we've got them.

I don't need to read the extra books to know they are false Raymond. Paul (personally chosen by Jesus himself) wrote "But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8) - which is pretty strong IMO. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy--

Jesus teaches us to have forgiveness in our hearts, not to be stupid.What they have done in the past; they have done again and again. I expect it will continue.

--RaymondJudy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and threatening?

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts


:-)-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:11:32 -0500Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] God Hardens Hearts


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Kind of similar to a white man denying he is white.



And I have told you often that I am not a fundamentalist. 


Had to laugh. Couldn't help it.

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting





Bothoms wrote:

  F
  

   I'm an LDS Christian; and I've read them and I know what's
in them. Why don't you read them and ask God if they are true? Would
you rather, asa non-LDS Christian,depend upon man for your answers or
God? I prefer to follow God and I know that God answers prayer.
  
  --Raymond
  

  

==
Provided those prayers come from a righteous man

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the confessing "pervert" lost? Sins of omission will send us to hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? I collect 1:18 model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I repent, take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy ministry or a needy person? 


-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:25:07 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:

Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 21:20)

These two are also mentioned in tandemin Proverbs 23:20
Isaiah 5:21,22
Luke 21:34,35
Romans 13:13,14
Ephesians 5:18,19


On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Are fat Christians save

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




Why was I naive enough to think you were asking an 
honest question JD; I should have known I was being
set up and that you had this hidden agenda... Who said 
a "glutton" is saved and a "confessing pervert" lost??
Certainly not me. What both Terry and I said is 
that all fat ppl are not gluttons. Read the scriptures and 
you
will find that gluttony and drunkenness and surfeiting 
are an attitude of the heart. It is walking after the flesh.
If you want to go around judging every fat person - 
then that is another area of sin.

As for my beliefs - you knownothing about 
them. What you think you know stems fromyour bad experiences 
in
the past which you equate with legalism,works 
faith and some such convoluted system; these are your issues JD.
They have nothing at all to do with me. 
jt


On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08:41 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many 
calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It 
damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the 
confessing "pervert" lost? Sins of omission will send us to 
hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV 
while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? I collect 
1:18 model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something 
like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I repent, 
take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy ministry or 
a needy person? 

  
  
  
  From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  
  As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if 
  you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:
  
  Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like 
  siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
  Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son 
  who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 
  21:20)
  
  These two are also mentioned in tandemin 
  Proverbs 23:20
  Isaiah 5:21,22
  Luke 21:34,35
  Romans 13:13,14
  Ephesians 5:18,19
  
  
  On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  


Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just 
as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 
Are fat Christians save

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

On Sun, 15 May 2005 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

First, I didn't write that forgivess is stupid. What I was telling
you was that Jesus wants us to forgive, but not to be stupid. If an
enemy cames against you, again, and again, and again -- it would be stupid the
think it that he would not do so another time. I know that vengence
belongs to the Lord, as most LDS Christians do. We turn the other cheek
over and over again.

jt: Raymond the fruit of turning the other cheek and
having forgiveness in the heart does not look like this: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and
spitting - Neither can you blame your
perceived enemy - He will answer for his deeds but your reaction is your
responsibility.

As for not reading the 'extra books,' I say you are afraid of
truth. Either, that or you don't believe that God answers prayer.
I'm not afraid of truth and I know that God does answer prayer.

jt: I believe I know the Truth Raymond. He is
the person who is written about in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and
in the psalms. The one who sent His Spirit to indwell every believer and to
lead them into all truth.

Further, you didn't even wait for an angel to deceive you. You
freely choose to be out of harmony with the Lord and the teaching of his
apostles. The New Testament, itself, is a witness against you.

Why would I wait for an angel to deceive me Raymond;
you are not making sense.

The Lord organized His Church to have certain offices that are to be
maintained -- you reject that.

Yes, I believe the Lord left an organism rather than
an organization - there is a difference.

The Lord's Church has authority that is given to those in the ministry to
administer the gospel -- you reject that.

I probably do reject it in the way that you perceive
Raymond although I accept that the body of Christ consists of a nation of
kings and priests who are to submit and minister one to another in the fear of
God with Jesus Christ as Cornerstone.

The Lord organized only one Church and does not allow denominations --
you reject that. Yes, you are already removed from the gospel that Paul
preached.

The Lord did not institute denominations but He
allows them and will allow them until He returns - It is then that he will
separate the wheat from the tares and I personally believe there is probably
genuine wheat in most every denomination. Judy Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Forgiving ppl is not stupid Raymond - and you can
be sure what is in ones heart will come out of their mouths. When we forgive
we are obeying Jesus and doing things God's way, (leaving the vengeance with
Him) and this is whenHe will undertake for us as He has
promised. When we take thing upon ourselves - we're out there alone
and we've got them.

I don't need to read the extra books to know they
are false Raymond. Paul (personally chosen by Jesus himself) wrote
"But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians
1:8) - which is pretty strong IMO. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy--

Jesus teaches us to have forgiveness in our hearts, not to be
stupid.What they have done in the past; they have done again
and again. I expect it will continue.

As for the extra books --- I'm an LDS Christian; and I've
read them and I know what's in them. Why don't you read them and ask
God if they are true? Would you rather, asa non-LDS
Christian,depend upon man for your answers or God? I prefer to
follow God and I know that God answers prayer.

--RaymondJudy Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Further proof that Mormonism is different from
our Christian faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness
even blessing those who oppose and curse you
- and this is our example in spite of theNIV translaters who have
tried to sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've learned
that we are not responsible for the actions
of others but
weare responsible before God for our
ownreaction to what they say and do. The street preachers
could be a test for you fellows - and if so
it sounds like you have allflunked. But then all these extra
books of yours probably teach something
different because it is against the adversary's best interests for you
to make it. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Raymond: It
sounds like anger to me. Probably brought about because some people seek

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many
calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It damages the
"temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the confessing
"pervert" lost? tc: If a person is a glutton, sin is the pattern
of their life and they are lost, as is the pervert who refuses to deny
self . I do not know why. I just know that he is. I suppose
one reason would be that the Bible says so and the Bible is the word of
God. I would consider that a good enough reason that I would
not question it. Sins of omission will send us to hell, under your
gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV while not, at the same
time, preaching to the lost? If you are watching the stuff Lance
watches, not long. I collect 1:18 model cars. I just spent $250
on a 1955 Mercedes with something like 3600 individual parts -
going to hell until I repent, take the car back and give the money to
the local church or a needy ministry or a needy person? 
  Had you seen a needy person on your way to buy that car,
would you have not spent the money on that person. Seems I remember
you doing something similar before.
  
  
  

-Original Message-
From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:25:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
  
  
  
  As Terry said - all fat ppl are not
gluttons but if you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:
  
  Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go
together like siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the
Old
  Covenant they they were cause for a
rebellious son who would not listen to be
stoned (Deuteronomy 21:20)
  
  These two are also mentioned in tandemin
Proverbs 23:20
  Isaiah 5:21,22
  Luke 21:34,35
  Romans 13:13,14
  Ephesians 5:18,19
  
  
  On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  


Is gluttony a sin?

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
Are fat Christians save

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism




I hope JD is ahead of you in that 
total

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin 
  Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
  baptism
  
  How many dozens have you 
  affected?
  Remember you would not answer that one it is personal I 
  suppose.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  



This, of course, is not the objection. It is not 
"tolerance" that is in question, but effectiveness of ministry (not to 
mention rudeness). I personally believe that for everyone 
"brought to the Lord" via some form of the Screaming 
Ministry, there are dozens who effected in the very opposite 
way. I suppose that is why we see almost no street ministry out 
here on the left coast. Intervention ministries, benevolent 
ministries, home church programs, youth and campus ministries seem to be the 
things that work best and turn the lest number of people off. 

Jd - back at long last


-Original Message-From: David Miller 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 
14 May 2005 12:19:26 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
baptism


Caroline wrote:
 Someone I don't know, trust, believe or even like shouting at me
 stuff that is offensive to my ears is disturbing my right to peace
 and quiet and my right to be unmolested  and intimidated when
 I enter my place of worship.

Hmmm.  Is there a problem with tolerance here?  You don't have a right to 
quietness when you are outside your "place of worship" (place of worship? --  
another topic that needs addressing at another time).  When you are inside 
your "place of worship" then you have a right to quietness.  Those who want 
quietness in public places do not really believe in free speech.


  
  
  Yahoo! MailStay connected, organized, and protected. Take the 
tour

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




But it seems that Judy is saying if you have to 
confess the same sin a couple of times, you're not really saved. I was just 
asking for clarification.

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts 
  on Genesis 1
  Caroline Wong wrote: 
  



Are we all assuming this man was confessing pedophilia? Or was he 
confessing something else like anger or sloth or is that all perversion to 
you, Terry? I know some here believe they don't sin but some here regularly 
confesses to the Lord. Are those who regularly confess sins in their prayer 
Christian perverts?

Love,

Caroline="Why 
  do you call me Lord, and do not do as I tell you to do?" That was the 
  question Jesus asked. The implication is that if you are serving 
  yourself instead of serving Him, you are lost. He will not be your 
  Savior under those conditions, no matter what this continual sin 
  is. I do not know how your mind works. Is it a favorite 
  sin that you insist on keeping, or do you have a casual attitude toward all 
  sin, or is it sin that is not deliberate that you fall into before you even 
  know it? These are things you need to address the next time you 
  pray. Just you and Him. I have my own salvation to work 
  out.Terry

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism




Terry, I agree.

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
  [TruthTalk] baptism
  Caroline Wong wrote: 
  

And what did Jesus mean when he quoted Hosea, 
"But go ye and learn what that 
meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the 
righteous, but sinners to repentance." 
Jesus 
  was telling us what He preferred to see from us. He would rather we be 
  merciful to one another than offer sacrifices to God. If you remember, 
  by this time, God was sick of meaningless sacrifices, offerings not from the 
  heart, rituals. That is religeon. Mercy comes from a loving 
  heart.Terry

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching




So we are to be co-saviours with Jesus 
Christ?

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
  [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
  
  Salvation being a "gift" is speaking of it in our 
  own"cultural context" as in children's Christmas musicals 
  etc.
  However, if you will read scripture in balance and in 
  context you will find that we are to labor together with
  God to "work out our own salvation with fear and 
  trembling" It is not anything we catch by osmosis and 
  just because Jesus became a man and made it does not 
  guarantee we will. He left us an example that we
  should follow in His steps and sent the Promise to 
  empower us to do so. 
  
  Many are called - but "overcomers" will be the chosen 
  ones in the Last Day. judyt
  
  On Sun, 15 May 2005 03:02:57 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  A great verse that bolsters Paul's argument that 
  all Israel will be saved because God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and 
  Jacob. 
  I wonder what can we apply this verse 
  to? What gifts and calling have been 
  given to us? Salvation? gasp!
  

  From: Kevin Deegan 
  What scripture tells us to check the 
  culture? You watch too much TV!
  
  Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God 
  are without repentance.Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  That 
was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David  Kevin). These 
arequite different cultural contexts.From: "David Miller" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Caroline Wong wrote:  I've met 
many Christians from many different churches  and 
denominations (including Methodist/Wesleyan)  and never came 
across a Street Preacher. The father of the 
Methodist/Wesleyan tradition was John Wesley. He was a street 
preacher who first preached outside while standing on his 
father's grave because those of the religious establishment 
didn't want him intheir pulpit. If it were not for street 
preachers, there would be no Methodists or Wesleyans. I 
encourage you to read more about John Wesley and hisfield 
preaching. Wesley first observed George Whitefield open air preaching 
and described it as disorderly. Wesley seemed to think of it 
like some of the detractors here in this forum, describing it as 
"almost a sin." Afteropen air preaching for 33 years, Wesley 
still described it as a cross to him,but he knew his 
commission and could see no other way to preach the gospel to 
every creature. The bottomline is that God used John Wesley mightily 
in open air preaching and he could not deny the results. Many of 
us have similar testimonies. I grew up in the 
Methodist tradition too, and I never saw someonepreaching 
outside until I was well into my twenties. This is sad, because Jesus 
did it, the apostles did it, it is in the Bible, and it is found 
in the tradition of the Methodists, Salvation Army, Puritans, 
and even in the history of evangelists like Billy 
Graham. Peace be with you. David 
Miller. -- "Let your speech be 
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you 
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 
4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to 
receive posts from this list, send an email 
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you 
have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail 
to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with 
grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer 
every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do 
not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
  
  
  Yahoo! MailStay connected, organized, and protected. Take the 
tour

Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: The Wise Old Poodle]




Yikes Terry! Note to self: nevermess with 
Terry :-)

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; Larry/Janice 
  Farris ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:07 AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: The Wise Old 
  Poodle]
  -- 
  


  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  The Wise Old Poodle

A wealthy old lady decides to go on a photo safari in Africa, taking her
faithful aged poodle named Cuddles, along for the company.

One day the poodle starts chasing butterflies and before long, Cuddles
discovers that she's lost. Wandering about, she notices a leopard heading
rapidly in her direction with the intention of having lunch.

The old poodle thinks, "Oh, oh! I'm in deep doo-doo now!" Noticing some
bones on the ground close by, she immediately settles down to chew on the
bones with her back to the approaching cat. Just as the leopard is about to

leap, the old poodle exclaims loudly, "Boy, that was one delicious leopard!
I wonder if there are any more around here?"

Hearing this, the young leopard halts his attack in mid-strike, a look of
terror comes over him and he slinks away into the trees. "Whew!", says the
leopard, "That was close! That old poodle nearly had me!"

Meanwhile, a monkey who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby
tree, figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for
protection from the leopard. So off he goes, but the old poodle sees him
heading after the leopard with great speed, and figures that something must
be up. The monkey soon catches up with the leopard, spills the beans and
strikes a deal for himself with the leopard.

The young leopard is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here,
monkey, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving
canine!"

Now, the old poodle sees the leopard coming with the monkey on his back and
thinks, "What am I going to do now?", but instead of running, the dog sits
down with her back to her attackers, pretending she hasn't seen them yet,
and just when they get close enough to hear, the old poodle says: "Where's
that damn monkey? I sent him off an hour ago to bring me another leopard!"

Moral of this story:

Don't mess with old folks ... age and treachery will always overcome youth
and skill! Bull and brilliance only come with age and experience

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




I think you mean some obese folks are not glutton. True some people have 
metabolic disorders that make them put on weight without overeating. But what 
about those who do overeat. Can they still be Christians. Or how about smokers? 
Or an alcoholic who got dry and then got drunk again and then sobered up again. 
Was he still saved when he was drunk? If he stayed drunk is he still 
saved?

Love

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts 
  on Genesis 1
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  


Is gluttony a 
  sin?=Yes, 
  it is, but all obese folks are not gluttons.

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

Raymond did I miss your post with your Testimony the definition of the Gospel?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

jt: Raymond the fruit of turning the other cheek and having forgiveness in the heart does not look like this: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting - Neither can you blame your perceived enemy - He will answer for his deeds but your reaction is your responsibility.

As for not reading the 'extra books,' I say you are afraid of truth. Either, that or you don't believe that God answers prayer. I'm not afraid of truth and I know that God does answer prayer.

jt: I believe I know the Truth Raymond. He is the person who is written about in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms. The one who sent His Spirit to indwell every believer and to lead them into all truth.

Further, you didn't even wait for an angel to deceive you. You freely choose to be out of harmony with the Lord and the teaching of his apostles. The New Testament, itself, is a witness against you.

Why would I wait for an angel to deceive me Raymond; you are not making sense.

The Lord organized His Church to have certain offices that are to be maintained -- you reject that.

Yes, I believe the Lord left an organism rather than an organization - there is a difference.

The Lord's Church has authority that is given to those in the ministry to administer the gospel -- you reject that.

I probably do reject it in the way that you perceive Raymond although I accept that the body of Christ consists of a nation of kings and priests who are to submit and minister one to another in the fear of God with Jesus Christ as Cornerstone.

The Lord organized only one Church and does not allow denominations -- you reject that. Yes, you are already removed from the gospel that Paul preached.

The Lord did not institute denominations but He allows them and will allow them until He returns - It is then that he will separate the wheat from the tares and I personally believe there is probably genuine wheat in most every denomination. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy--

Jesus teaches us to have forgiveness in our hearts, not to be stupid.What they have done in the past; they have done again and again. I expect it will continue.

--RaymondJudy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism





I kinda figured you would.

Caroline Wong wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Terry, I agree.
  
  Love,
  
  Caroline
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Terry Clifton 
To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent:
Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:44 AM
Subject:
Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism


Caroline Wong wrote:

  
  And what did Jesus mean when he
quoted Hosea, "But go ye
and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for
I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." 
  
  

Jesus was telling us what He preferred to see from us. He would rather
we be merciful to one another than offer sacrifices to God. If you
remember, by this time, God was sick of meaningless sacrifices,
offerings not from the heart, rituals. That is religeon. Mercy comes
from a loving heart.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

2005-05-15 Thread Charles Perry Locke


From: Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED]

As for the extra books  ---  I'm an LDS Christian; and I've read them and I 
know what's in them.  Why don't you read them and ask God if they are true? 
 Would you rather, as a non-LDS Christian, depend upon man for your 
answers or God?  I prefer to follow God and I know that God answers prayer.

--Raymond
Ray,
 If one reads satanically inspired books, then prays over them asking for 
truth, what is the chance that Satan will answer the call? By even 
entertaining literature that bears the signature of Satan, that contradicts 
the bible, and that came about through a man that was and is known to have 
participated in nefarious and occultic activities is risky.

  Look at what happened to you. You exchanged the truth for a lie. When 
people that do that, I feel it is because they have allowed Satan a inroad 
to their lives, and have fallen for the lie. I cannot entertain that. I 
cannot sit idly by while the same lies are spread to Christians who may not 
understand the seriousness of the sitiation.

  The mormons are working hard to make themselves appear as a Christian 
sect, in fact as the ONLY Christian sect, but they are neither. Satan has 
worked for more than a century and has woven a very complex fabric of 
deceit. It looks so tempting, so wholesome, so appealing from the outside 
that it took me years of study and prayer to understand what is on the 
inside, and to finally get to the point where the various hints and clues to 
its origin began to fit together to expose the hand of Satan in it.

  As far as I can tell, there are only two on this group who have fit the 
pieces together...me and Kevin. (If there are others that have done so, they 
have not made themselves known on the forum.) Our studies were done 
independently through the years...we met (online) only when I joined this 
group. We independently have arrived at the same conclusios about the 
mormons. Anyone who spends time reading scripture and talking to mormons 
will begin to understand the different meanigs of words, see the differences 
in the mromon deities and the Christian Deity.

  Have you noticed that when Kevin and I expose the mormon deceit on this 
forum, that no one besides the mormons try to contradict us? I believe that 
they sense the hand of satan, the differences in the mormon deities and the 
God of the Bible, the deceptive nature of the system, and do not interfere. 
I know this group. If they disagreed even a little, they would certainly say 
so.

Perry
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk]THE HOLY BIBLE void of Error

I don't have as much time as youBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

VOID OF ERROR --- prove it. Don't just make a statement; answer my challenges that I posted.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Well I guess for one to know one must be in the faith.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Plenty of others have known these facts Lance; if I were a betting person I would wager that Terry, Kevin, Izzy, and DavidM know them for a start along with apostlesPeter (2 Peter 1:21) and Paul (1 Corinthians 2:14)judyt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:23:26 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Sorry Judy but, unless you're privy to information that no one else 'nose', it was written by men.

From: Judy Taylor 

Only humanity did not write it - Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, the Bible
is a supernatural book - it is only foolishness to the natural mind which does not understand the things of the
Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:07:46 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The Bible is indeed reflective of the humanity that wrote it.

From: Bothoms 
THE HOLY BIBLE  Errors



If you still doubt the apostasy (some would call it the dark ages), you need look no further than the Bible itself  for it has suffered from it.Contraditions--
WHO MOVED DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL?
Compare 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Sam 24:1)
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chr 21:1)
HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 8:26 with 2Chr 22:2
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." (2Kgs 8:26)
"Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mothers name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." (2Chr 22:2)
WAS THE LORD KNOWN AS JEHOVAH TO ABRAHAM?
Compare Ex 6:3 with Gen 22:14
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." (Ex 6:3)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." (Gen 22:14)
DID MOSES SEE THE LORDS FACE?
Compare Ex 33:11 with Ex 33:20
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex 33:11)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex 33:20)
WHAT WAS THE COLOR OF THE ROBE THAT THE SOLDIERS MADE JESUS WEAR?
Compare Matt 27:28 with Mark 15:17 and John 19:2
"And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe." (Matt 27:28)
"And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," (Mark 15:17)
"And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe," (John 19:2)
HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BECAME KING?
Compare 2Kgs 24:8 with 2Chr 36:9
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mothers name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." (2Kgs 24:8)
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." (2Chr 36:9)
HOW DID JUDAS DIE?
Compare Matt 27:5 with Acts 1:18
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." (Matt 27:5)
"Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
WHO WAS JOSEPHS FATHER?
Compare Matt 1:16 with Luke 3:23
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matt 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (Luke 3:23)
DID THE MEN HEAR A VOICE?
Compare Acts 9:7 with Acts 22:9
"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man." (Acts 9:7)
"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me." (Acts 22:9)
HOW MANY CHARIOTS?
Compare 2Sam 10:18 with 1Chr 19:18
"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." (2Sam 10:18)
"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host."

Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe

ETHER isn't that the stuff the dentist gives you when he has to extract your wisdom teeth?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I was quoting Ether.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Your out of CONTEXT there Ray, it has to do with SIN
FOOLS mock at sinBothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Judy, Do you really believe that he is 'mocking' in the same way? Do you really?

"And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek..." (Ether 12:26a)Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal and went on to appear with Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
The Proverb says "fools mock at sin" Kevin is mocking error like Elijah. jt

On Sat, 14 May 2005 22:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Fools mockKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

'gods in embryo'

gods in embryo? ROTFL, most of these guys can't run their homes how are they gonna run a planet?Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

OK the question was do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
and?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I did and my reply was suited to it.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Read the rest of the post!
Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
See the ? that indicates a QUESTION
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Are you a nut?Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Have you noticed? Raymond is not able to answer any questions!
Q What color is your shirt?
A I like golf.

Q Which way to Canada?
A I Drive a chevy.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
Raymond: Yes, I have read Exodus. Take a look at the following
"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." (Ex 7:22-23)
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:15)
"Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:19)
"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Ex 8:32)
"And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 9:7)
"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children Israel go; as the LORD had spoken." (Ex 9:34-35)
"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1Sam 6:6)


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Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

What would you do if someone spit in your face?
I have seen SP's wipe their face keep on preaching.
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and threatening?
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Please read my questions below and give an answer. Your personal judgments about me are no answer to my questions. Additionally, are some gluttons saved and others lost because of "attitude of heart?" Are you saying that it is the condition of the heart rather than mere "sin" that God looks to? 

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:54:01 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Why was I naive enough to think you were asking an honest question JD; I should have known I was being
set up and that you had this hidden agenda... Who said a "glutton" is saved and a "confessing pervert" lost??
Certainly not me. What both Terry and I said is that all fat ppl are not gluttons. Read the scriptures and you
will find that gluttony and drunkenness and surfeiting are an attitude of the heart. It is walking after the flesh.
If you want to go around judging every fat person - then that is another area of sin.

As for my beliefs - you knownothing about them. What you think you know stems fromyour bad experiences in
the past which you equate with legalism,works faith and some such convoluted system; these are your issues JD.
They have nothing at all to do with me. jt


On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08:41 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the confessing "pervert" lost? Sins of omission will send us to hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? I collect 1:18 model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I repent, take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy ministry or a needy person? 




From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]



As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:

Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 21:20)

These two are also mentioned in tandemin Proverbs 23:20
Isaiah 5:21,22
Luke 21:34,35
Romans 13:13,14
Ephesians 5:18,19


On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Are fat Christians save

Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE

Written by farmers, goat herders, cup bearers, fisherman over thousands of years in diverse places. Try to get 40 doctors together in one place today and see if they can agree.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Excellent response Terry; I don't find any of what Raymond posted changes much (for me). It certainly will not cause me to trust scripture any less and does not affect any major doctrine that I am aware of- It is all just petty stuff and since Jesus trusted scripture without question and these things happened and have been recorded and copied by so many ppl over such a long period of time it is a miracle thatthere are not more conflicts. You couldn't pass a story around a room full of ppl and have it return to the original storyteller exactly the same as it went out and you can be surethe adversaries have been over every inch of scripture with a fine tooth comb. I know there are answers to these other things but I am battling an allergic reaction to an antibiotic today so am not up to searching them out. I'll take the easier ones (that I know already). jt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:16:02 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There are things in the Bible that I do not understand, Raymond. That does not mean that they are errors. It simply means that I do not understand how it all fits together. Please do not assume that since I cannot prove otherwise, that there are errors in the word of God. That would be very foolish. I am not an expert.Terry
Bothoms wrote:

Judy: Here we go again..
The anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel against the advice of his military Cmdr
2 Sam 2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing; there is NO error.

Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. I guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take it.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Are you dieting again?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Is gluttony a sin?-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:14:08 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 










[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




 Are fat Christians save 






===Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.












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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





Caroline Wong wrote:

  
  
  
  
  I think you mean some obese folks are not glutton. True some
people have metabolic disorders that make them put on weight without
overeating. But what about those who do overeat. Can they still be
Christians. Or how about smokers? Or an alcoholic who got dry and then
got drunk again and then sobered up again. Was he still saved when he
was drunk? If he stayed drunk is he still saved?
  
  Love
  
  Caroline

The Bible is pretty clear about who goes to Heaven and who goes to
Hell. Those who deny self and follow Christ are saved. Drunkards and
gluttons are specifically pointed out as lost as are sexual perverts,
gossips, and so on. Smoking is not specifically addressed in the
Bible. It could be like wine or food; a little is good, a lot is bad,
or it could be like taking the Lord's name in vain; never do it even a
little bit. In the OT, unintentional sin was forgivable. Under grace,
even intentional sin over a long period can be forgiven provided it is
forsaken (Go, and sin no more). My advice: If in doubt, don't sin. If
you slip up, repent. If you wallow in sin, get some good fire
insurance, you will need it.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




That's really bad news for so many Americans.

Terry, is it possible that God saves a glutton 
because He is able to and He wants to?

Love,

Caroline

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 2:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts 
  on Genesis 1
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  



For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many 
calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It 
damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the 
confessing "pervert" lost? tc: If a person is a glutton, sin 
is the pattern of their life and they are lost, as is the pervert who 
refuses to deny self . I do not know why. I just know that 
he is. I suppose one reason would be that the Bible says 
so and the Bible is the word of God. I would consider that a 
good enough reason that I would not question it. Sins of omission will 
send us to hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit 
watching TV while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? 
If you are watching the stuff Lance watches, not long. I collect 1:18 
model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something 
like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I 
repent, take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy 
ministry or a needy person? 
Had you seen a needy person on your way to buy that car, would 
you have not spent the money on that person. Seems I remember 
you doing something similar before.

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
Sun, 15 May 2005 11:25:07 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts 
on Genesis 1



As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if 
you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:

Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like 
siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son 
who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 
21:20)

These two are also mentioned in tandemin 
Proverbs 23:20
Isaiah 5:21,22
Luke 21:34,35
Romans 13:13,14
Ephesians 5:18,19


On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  
  Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just 
  as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.
  

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  Are fat Christians save

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism



Back in my legalistic days, I used to actually keep a total of "converts." The good news is that I understand the message in clearer terms. I just got through (yes, this Sunday afternoon) counseling a woman who is having a problem that is effecting her marriage. This week, I will (by invitation) be sitting down with one of my contractors and sharing with him some of what is encouraging to me in terms of reconciliation. He is one who bailed out for nearly three weeks. No one could get ahold of him. But he wants to talk about the Lord. He is the one asking the questions. And I can say that my children are all concerned about their relationship with the Lord. How many Chrsitian dads get to say that !  It doesn't make me something special --- but it sure does give me a deeper sence of appreciation toward my God. 

Do you keep a running total of "converts." I really do not know anyone who does this. I really do not understand the importance of the question. 


-Original Message-From: Caroline Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:07:35 -0500Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism



I hope JD is ahead of you in that total

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

How many dozens have you affected?
Remember you would not answer that one it is personal I suppose.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




This, of course, is not the objection. It is not "tolerance" that is in question, but effectiveness of ministry (not to mention rudeness). I personally believe that for everyone "brought to the Lord" via some form of the Screaming Ministry, there are dozens who effected in the very opposite way. I suppose that is why we see almost no street ministry out here on the left coast. Intervention ministries, benevolent ministries, home church programs, youth and campus ministries seem to be the things that work best and turn the lest number of people off. 

Jd - back at long last


-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:19:26 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism


Caroline wrote:
 Someone I don't know, trust, believe or even like shouting at me
 stuff that is offensive to my ears is disturbing my right to peace
 and quiet and my right to be unmolested  and intimidated when
 I enter my place of worship.

Hmmm.  Is there a problem with tolerance here?  You don't have a right to 
quietness when you are outside your "place of worship" (place of worship? --  
another topic that needs addressing at another time).  When you are inside 
your "place of worship" then you have a right to quietness.  Those who want 
quietness in public places do not really believe in free speech.




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Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1





Caroline Wong wrote:

  
  
  
  That's really bad news for so many Americans.
  
  Terry, is it possible that God saves
a glutton because He is able to and He wants to?
  
  Love,
  
  Caroline


Yes, Caroline. You know that. God saved a murderer named Saul and
changed his name to Paul, but there were many more murderers that He
has sent to Hell. All things are possible with God, but many are not
likely. As for Paul, he repented and was no longer a murderer but a
follower. If God saves a glutton, he will give up his gluttony for
Christ.

RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism

Look ! I answered the question. The question was Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
I answered that I have read Exodus -- in fact, I probably know the book better than you. As for the other part of the question, I quoted verses that say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Go back and read it . And not just selectively read it.
Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

OK the question was do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
and?
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I did and my reply was suited to it.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Read the rest of the post!
Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
See the ? that indicates a QUESTION
Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Are you a nut?Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Have you noticed? Raymond is not able to answer any questions!
Q What color is your shirt?
A I like golf.

Q Which way to Canada?
A I Drive a chevy.Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart?
Raymond: Yes, I have read Exodus. Take a look at the following
"And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." (Ex 7:22-23)
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:15)
"Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:19)
"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Ex 8:32)
"And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 9:7)
"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children Israel go; as the LORD had spoken." (Ex 9:34-35)
"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1Sam 6:6)


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[TruthTalk] Street Preaching

A SP who does not speak unless spoken
to.

Not all street preachers are preachy
Matt Heinz Daily Staff
I guess you should expect that there will be some street preachers around
every once in a while on a college campus. They are not necessarily talking
about religion, either. You find some people spouting stuff about abortion,
environmental issues and other various political issues.
Most people pay these people no mind. They try to walk by as quickly as they
can. Some "preachers," if they are entertaining enough, will attract a small
crowd. Few are really taken seriously.
Religious street preachers have a worse reputation than most. For some
reason, most people assume that anyone speaking out loud about religion on a
street corner or college campus is a wacko. They've seen a few preachers,
sometimes just one, who fits this description well, and they assume all street
preachers are alike.
I myself am a Christian. I do not, however, have any inclination to go out
into a large public place and start talking out loud to people about my faith.
That's just not my style. There are many who are comfortable with this practice.
Cliffe is but one of many.
Cliffe has been out in Red Square every afternoon this week for a couple of
hours talking about his faith and answering any questions that anyone has. I
spent some time last year listening to him and did the same this year, and
although I do not agree with everything Cliffe says, I respect him much more
than most street preachers I've seen.
Not once while I was watching him did Cliffe judge. Not once did he
tell someone that they would be going to Hell for their sins. And not once did
he speak when not spoken to.
Unlike most street preachers, who just yell at anyone passing by, Cliff waits
for a question. There were several times when he'd finish answering a question,
see no new hands raised, and just stand there silently, waiting for a new
question.
Many questions asked of Cliffe were indeed challenging to the Christian
faith. Instead of condemning or yelling at the person, Cliff would thank them
for the question and calmly give his answer. Sometimes he and the student with
the initial question would engage in a brief exchange of ideas. These
discussions never turned into shouting matches or condemnations. Cliffe was as
calm with the declared Atheist as he was with devout Christian.
There were many times when I disagreed with Cliffe's argument, his belief, or
his rationale. We are both Christian, but his views on many subject differ from
mine. And that's OK. I still respect him, because he respects those to whom he
is talking.
Cliffe respected each and every student in Red Square. It was too bad many
were too closed-minded to even give him a chance.
You don't have to believe. You don't have to agree. But it won't hurt you to
listen. Of all the confrontational street preachers out there, some are worth
listening to. Not because they're right. That's for you to decide. But because
they'll treat you like an intelligent human being. It won't hurt you to give
Cliffe, and many like him, a chance.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching




I don't remember saying anything about co-saviors 
Caroline- where do you get this from? Co-laboring is entirely different. Paul says in 1 Cor 3:9 that he 
and Apollos were co-laboring with God; one plants and 
the other waters. In our own lives we are to labor to enter into rest 
Hebrews 4:11 - It doesn't all just fall on us because 
Jesus went to the cross. He's done His part but now it's time for us to 
take care of ours or -"How will we escape if we 
neglect so great a salvation?" judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:13:19 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So we are to be co-saviours with Jesus Christ? 
Love, Caroline

  
From: Judy Taylor 

Salvation being a "gift" is speaking of it in our 
own"cultural context" as in children's Christmas musicals 
etc.
However, if you will read scripture in balance and 
in context you will find that we are to labor together with
God to "work out our own salvation with fear and 
trembling" It is not anything we catch by osmosis and 
just because Jesus became a man and made it does 
not guarantee we will. He left us an example that we
should follow in His steps and sent the Promise to 
empower us to do so. 

Many are called - but "overcomers" will be the 
chosen ones in the Last Day. judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 03:02:57 -0500 "Caroline Wong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
A great verse that bolsters Paul's argument 
that all Israel will be saved because God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac 
and Jacob. 
I wonder what can we apply this verse 
to? What gifts and calling have been 
given to us? Salvation? gasp!

  
From: Kevin Deegan 
What scripture tells us to check 
the culture? You watch too much TV!

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of 
God are without repentance.Lance Muir 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
That 
  was then (John Wesley) and, this is now (David  Kevin). These 
  arequite different cultural contexts.From: "David Miller" 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Caroline Wong wrote:  I've 
  met many Christians from many different churches  and 
  denominations (including Methodist/Wesleyan)  and never 
  came across a Street Preacher. The father of the 
  Methodist/Wesleyan tradition was John Wesley. He was a street 
  preacher who first preached outside while standing on his 
  father's grave because those of the religious establishment 
  didn't want him intheir pulpit. If it were not for street 
  preachers, there would be no Methodists or Wesleyans. I 
  encourage you to read more about John Wesley and hisfield 
  preaching. Wesley first observed George Whitefield open air preaching 
  and described it as disorderly. Wesley seemed to think of it 
  like some of the detractors here in this forum, describing it 
  as "almost a sin." Afteropen air preaching for 33 years, 
  Wesley still described it as a cross to him,but he knew 
  his commission and could see no other way to preach the gospel 
  to every creature. The bottomline is that God used John Wesley 
  mightily in open air preaching and he could not deny the 
  results. Many of us have similar testimonies. 
  I grew up in the Methodist tradition too, and I never saw 
  someonepreaching outside until I was well into my 
  twenties. This is sad, because Jesus did it, the apostles did 
  it, it is in the Bible, and it is found in the tradition of 
  the Methodists, Salvation Army, Puritans, and even in the 
  history of evangelists like Billy Graham. Peace be 
  with you. David Miller. 
  -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned 
  with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." 
  (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do 
  not want to receive posts from this list, send an email 
  to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you 
  have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail 
  to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be 
  subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with 
  grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer 
  every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do 
  not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have 
  a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


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Re: [TruthTalk] THE HOLY BIBLE Errors

What was your response on the TESTIMONY of the Book O Mormon?
I haven't answered yet.
Can you answer any of the questions, posed?
Yes.
Where are the verses that show Satans Inheritance? His heirship? Any ANGELS inheritance? Any Angel called a "brother"?
I've answered enough on that topic. If you don't get it, oh well, you just don't get it.
I can't remember any more right now shall I look them up?
Sure.
Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. I guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take it.

Please mercy,I can't take it you stripling warrior you! Where can I hide?
So I will type something up and as usual we won't here a peep from you! Because I have not gotten back to you on one thing you are all puffed up, then i post and we get not a peep.
What was your response on the TESTIMONY of the Book O Mormon? Can you answer any of the questions, posed? Where are the verses that show Satans Inheritance? His heirship? Any ANGELS inheritance? Any Angel called a "brother"? I can't remember any more right now shall I look them up?

Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bothoms wrote:

Judy: Here we go again..
The anger of God (Satan) moved David to number Israel against the advice of his military Cmdr
2 Sam 2:41 and 1 Chr 21:1 are saying the same thing; there is NO error.

Raymond: Good try. At least you made an attempt to answer the first one. Kevin, Perry, Lance, and Terry are hiding. I guess that they can dish out challenges, but they can't take it.=There are things in the Bible that I do not understand, Raymond. That does not mean that they are errors. It simply means that I do not understand how it all fits together. Please do not assume that since I cannot prove otherwise, that there are errors in the word of God.That would be very foolish. I am not an expert.Terry

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Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

I've been spit on before, and I don't do it to others.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

What would you do if someone spit in your face?
I have seen SP's wipe their face keep on preaching.
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and threatening?

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Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

From ChristianityToday.com http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/14.18.html
Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad
about what happened at the LDS conference

Winning Them SoftlyEvangelicals try to reach Mormons with respectand hard
science.By John W.
Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004
After years of ineffective and often acrimonious
evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical
clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect.
Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout
the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt
Lake Citybased church have expressed both resentment and distrust.
At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents
of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street Preachers Fellowship stomped on
underclothes that LDS members consider holy. They also pretended to blow their
noses and wipe their bottoms with the garments.
Three dozen evangelical leaders condemned the actions.
"You don't take what is sacred to another faith and denigrate
it," said Greg C.V. Johnson, who leads Standing Together, a Salt Lake City
ministry to Mormons. "It doesn't take courage to treat a person you disagree
with in a disdaining fashion."
Johnson said he has been trying to build trust with LDS leaders
for nearly three years. James Ayers, pastor of Valley Assembly of God, and 22
other evangelical leaders gathered at a press conference to denounce the street
preachers.
"You don't build any bridges with actions like that," Ayers
said. "Our purpose is to let the community know that these people don't
represent all Christians in the city. We believe people need to be treated with
dignity."
Mormon-evangelical dialogue isn't new, but until now it has
been limited in scope. Johnson has engaged in high-level talks with Mormon
leaders, and he has received two letters of gratitude from LDS apostles for
denouncing the tactics of the street preachers.
Civil discourseHe believes that
evangelicals have a greater potential for influence if they refrain from
criticism, and that civil discourse is an essential prelude to a
breakthrough.
Johnson left the LDS 22 years ago, as a teenager, and now
attends an Evangelical Free church. He is in the midst of a 14-city lecture tour
with Brigham Young University professor Robert L. Millet. Johnson and Millet
engage in a respectful conversation about their points of difference. Sometimes
LDS and evangelical groups on college campuses sponsor the events jointly.
The street preachers criticized Standing Together members for
failing to tell Mormons they are going to hell. But Ayers said Christians are
instructed to love those outside the faith, not rebuke them. Ayers is disturbed
that the street preachers seemed to be consumed with anger toward Mormons. Ayers
said a number of nominal Mormons have started to attend evangelical churches
recently in search of spiritual meaning.
At a press conference a year ago, Ayers and a smaller group of
evangelicals denounced street preachers who screamed through bullhorns and
disrupted wedding pictures being shot near the LDS temple in downtown Salt Lake
City.
A DNA revolutionOn another
front, a different group of evangelicals believes recent DNA evidence
questioning the accuracy of Mormon history provides an open door to
evangelism.
The Book of Mormon describes how
Israelites emigrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago, with the now-extinct
Lamanites and Nephites becoming the ancestors of American Indians. But
anthropologists say there is no match of Jewish DNA with that of American
Indians. An inaccurate Book of Mormon creates
questions about the foundations of Mormon teaching.
Hope Christian Fellowship in Brigham City has produced DNA vs. the Book of Mormon, a well-reasoned, articulate,
and irenic 50-minute presentation of this argument. The small, independent
community church spent $50,000 on the project, and is selling it on videotape
and DVD. Pastor Joel Kramer and Scott Johnson produced the presentation. Kramer
spent a year interviewing eight scientistsincluding Mormon scholar Thomas W.
Murphyand two former Mormons who left the church because of the DNA
evidence.
The church sent a free video to 7,500 households, consisting
mostly of Mormons. The church also sells the video for $3 through its website.
Kramer told CT he has heard reports
from about 300 people who have left Mormonism because of evidence presented on
the program, released last April. Unknown persons have vandalized one of his
vehicles, sent him hostile letters, and left burned tapes at the church's
door.
'No Israelite influence'One
former Mormon scientist is 43-year-old Simon Southerton, who served as a bishop
in Canberra, Australia. His book, Losing a Lost Tribe:
Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (Signature Books) will be
published in March.
"The DNA evidence backs up decades of archaeological,

Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1




Judy -- why the attack? We are discussing a very important issue. Let's just stick to that and avoid personal judgments about the other. I asked a series of questions.I would like an answer. When you mention an "attitude of heart," are y ou saying that some gluttons are lost and others are "saved,"depending upon their attitude? 
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:54:01 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1



Why was I naive enough to think you were asking an honest question JD; I should have known I was being
set up and that you had this hidden agenda... Who said a "glutton" is saved and a "confessing pervert" lost??
Certainly not me. What both Terry and I said is that all fat ppl are not gluttons. Read the scriptures and you
will find that gluttony and drunkenness and surfeiting are an attitude of the heart. It is walking after the flesh.
If you want to go around judging every fat person - then that is another area of sin.

As for my beliefs - you knownothing about them. What you think you know stems fromyour bad experiences in
the past which you equate with legalism,works faith and some such convoluted system; these are your issues JD.
They have nothing at all to do with me. jt


On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08:41 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the confessing "pervert" lost? Sins of omission will send us to hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? I collect 1:18 model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I repent, take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy ministry or a needy person? 




From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]



As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study:

Gluttony  Drunkenness seem to go together like siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old
Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 21:20)

These two are also mentioned in tandemin Proverbs 23:20
Isaiah 5:21,22
Luke 21:34,35
Romans 13:13,14
Ephesians 5:18,19


On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Is gluttony a sin?From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Are fat Christians save

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching