date:20050530




The world of philosophical religion belongs to you and 
Bob Dylan Gary because you are both full of your own
thoughts rather than Gods and you do not rightly divide 
the Word of Truth. Gal 3:10 emphasizes what is written 
in Deut 27:26 "Cursed is he 
who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them and all the ppl shall 
say Amen" also Jer 11:3 "Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this 
covenant"

Under the New Covenant we see:
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just 
before God but the doers of the law shall be 
justified"
Oophs! I thought the law had been done away with 
.. Is Paul confused or something? He may need your counsel.
Also James 1:22 "But be ye doers of 
the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be 
a
hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a 
man beholding his natural face in a glass, for he beholdeth 
himself and goeth his way and straightway forgetteth 
what manner of man he was"

NEWSFLASH!!
The forgetful hearer is not blessed either - he 
iscursed

On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:44:41 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who 
  keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl 
  and they are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.
  
  
  contrary to philosophical religion, Scripture both 
  establishes and underscores the followingpoint:
  
  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,
  
  which reflects, 
  e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:
  
  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of God,..bind 
  themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through Moses 
  ..
  
  counter to the 
  notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
  Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning
  
  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and 
  John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  

jt: Christ did 
not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The 
curse is still all over those ppl and they
are wearing 
it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.
  
  
  contrary to 
  philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
  followingpoint:
  
  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,
  
  which reflects, 
  e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:
  
  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of God,..bind 
  themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through Moses 
  ..
  
  counter to the 
  notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
  Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning
  
  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare 
legalists..

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Lance wrote:
 Please read my post one more time. Tell me what
 it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking
 of you.

Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is saying to you, Judy.  We 
all saw how John interpreted such action on my part as misquoting him or 
misrepresenting him, setting up for more acrimony and striving over vain 
words.  I can only hope Lance would not do such things, though he does seem 
to side squarely with John in this weird theology they have about the 
Incarnation that makes the Law of God something cursed and evil.  Wow, even 
Gary argued that God is a sinner based upon this reasoning, and he placed 
everyone under the curse of the law REGARDLESS OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST! 
Truly incredible.  You have done a very good job in making your case with 
John, causing John and Gary to articulate their beliefs in such a way that 
the absurdity of it becomes very apparent.  You have exposed the depravity 
of this theology to which they cling in a most clear way.  I have found your 
writings most inspiring and well reasoned.  You defend the gospel and faith 
in Christ very well.  As a result of your writing, the grace of Christ is 
magnified, and we see the beauty and awesome work of the cross to transform 
us without works of the law into the very image of Christ to which the law 
points us all.  Well done, faithful servant of the Most High!

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH









No. You must endure to the end in
Christ. Enduring to the end in JSmith doesnt cut it. Sorry. Iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:36
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs
DaveH





DAVEH: I appreciate your concern for my eternal
welfare, Izzy. Would it be OK with you if I first endure to the end
before getting saved, as the Savior suggested?

ShieldsFamily wrote: 

I vote for (4) Get saved and talk about the
REAL Jesus! J Izzy









-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Dismount your white horse, David. You are quite right in complimenting
Judy's capability. She is up to the task of defending her/your 'gospel'  She
is certainly up to 'Tonto(ing)' your Lone Ranger performance.

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 30, 2005 08:28
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the
Spirit

 Lance wrote:
  Please read my post one more time. Tell me what
  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking
  of you.

 Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is saying to you, Judy.
We
 all saw how John interpreted such action on my part as misquoting him or
 misrepresenting him, setting up for more acrimony and striving over vain
 words.  I can only hope Lance would not do such things, though he does
seem
 to side squarely with John in this weird theology they have about the
 Incarnation that makes the Law of God something cursed and evil.  Wow,
even
 Gary argued that God is a sinner based upon this reasoning, and he placed
 everyone under the curse of the law REGARDLESS OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST!
 Truly incredible.  You have done a very good job in making your case with
 John, causing John and Gary to articulate their beliefs in such a way that
 the absurdity of it becomes very apparent.  You have exposed the depravity
 of this theology to which they cling in a most clear way.  I have found
your
 writings most inspiring and well reasoned.  You defend the gospel and
faith
 in Christ very well.  As a result of your writing, the grace of Christ is
 magnified, and we see the beauty and awesome work of the cross to
transform
 us without works of the law into the very image of Christ to which the law
 points us all.  Well done, faithful servant of the Most High!

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit









The
curse comes from trying to obey the law apart from the indwelling empowerment
of the Holy Spirittrying to do it in the flesh is failure. Failure to obey Gods
wonderful laws/commandments brings the natural consequences of sin and death. (see
Deut. for the curses of disobedience vs the blessings of obedience). Iz



Jn 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:45
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit









On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:









jt: Christ did not become a curse for
those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they







are wearing it. Sickness is the
curse of the law.



















contrary to
philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the
followingpoint:











Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are
under a curse,











which reflects,
e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, above:











..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of
God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through
Moses ..











counter to the
notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of
Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are sinning











keep in mind
that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he
 Godare legalists..

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  
  
  
  
   If you are
a true Believer and dont
obey the Law you will still go to heavenjust sooner. Izzy
  

  

If this is true, would it not be better to disobey?

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I disagree, but only because you are wrong.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always
been Christ. Israel are the natural
branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are
God's
ppl in every generation and basically
Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you
will find
they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says
that we will
reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is
a difference between God's moral law and
the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can
fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and
I wrestle with periodically. The gospel
he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and
does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing
wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah
and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no
argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of
the Law away
Blessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more."
Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any
offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have
the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the
law.

The
curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 --
but it is sickness unto death until
you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In
Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb
2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More
than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered
powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words:
Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see
death (Jo 8:51).

Since Christ took the curse of the
Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy. You
bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the discussion !!!
By following your (me) reasoning --
ss so
far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely
funny. I do not believe the curse of the Law is
sickness; it is death or the fear of death.

It's not so something is amiss.
The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in Christ. We must
now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to be found "in Him"
Where
in scripture do I find this requirement that I must fulfill the Law
as Christ did. Your doctrine of works is a failures
doctrine - offering no hope and placing
one back under bondage.

The contrast is law verses
Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain,
David. Therefore, the faith of Christ is presented in the place of
righteousness (or the lack there of). The very purpose of the Law
sealed its fate -- for through the Law I died to the Law that I might
live to God. More than a contrast between law and Spirit, the
biblical text speaks of faith verses Law .. the incumbent rewards of
abiding in the Law is not a demonstration of faith - rather, such
rewards are the result of indebtedness.

jt: God Himself does not pit faith against His
Law; this is done by doctrines of men.
It is
God through Paul who makes the contrast: Where then
is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind
of law? Of works (the Old Law) No, but by a law of
faith.
I,
personally, think it too strong to state that the Law is pit

Re: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH




Ahhh but, that's exactly what 'he' believes 
himself to be doing. He believes that 'you' are not. You do understand that 
don't you?

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 08:45
  Subject: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs 
  DaveH
  
  
  No. You must 
  endure to the end in Christ. Enduring to the end in JSmith doesnt cut 
  it. Sorry. Iz
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DaveSent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:36 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs 
  DaveH
  
  DAVEH: I appreciate your concern for my eternal 
  welfare, Izzy. Would it be OK with you if I first endure to the end 
  before getting saved, as the Savior suggested?ShieldsFamily wrote: 
  
  I vote for (4) Get saved and talk about 
  the REAL Jesus! J 
  Izzy
  
  
  -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




perhaps..it's good 
that you ask..it grants one the opportunity tothink/respond wisely..like 
i'm enjoying more iTunes these days--less Looney--can click a couple of iTunes 
buttons and listen to songs non-stop...if you wanna know, i tossed the tv 
recently,kept a cassette tape player, though...how about you--do you 
retain a tv? one thing imiss about the tv is to be able to hook up the vcr 
for running tapes like the 'Turtle' on batting--Turtle's an NCAA (5 div) 
championship bb coach, at LSU,who does hitting instruction---good stuff..a 
lecture and i enjoyed it:)

On Mon, 30 May 2005 04:39:36 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
  listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 
  
  Lance
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy 
and John on the Law and the Spirit


On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  jt: Christ did 
  not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. 
  The curse is still all over those ppl and 
  they
  are wearing 
  it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.


contrary to 
philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
followingpoint:

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
curse,

which reflects, 
e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
above:

..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of 
God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through 
Moses ..

counter to the 
notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
sinning

keep in mind 
that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
 Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

No mention of a cd player? 

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 09:25
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

  perhaps..it's 
  good that you ask..it grants one the opportunity tothink/respond 
  wisely..like i'm enjoying more iTunes these days--less Looney--can click a 
  couple of iTunes buttons and listen to songs non-stop...if you wanna know, i 
  tossed the tv recently,kept a cassette tape player, though...how about 
  you--do you retain a tv? one thing imiss about the tv is to be able to 
  hook up the vcr for running tapes like the 'Turtle' on batting--Turtle's an 
  NCAA (5 div) championship bb coach, at LSU,who does hitting 
  instruction---good stuff..a lecture and i enjoyed it:)

  On Mon, 30 May 2005 04:39:36 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy 
  and John on the Law and the Spirit

  On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:

jt: Christ 
did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully 
sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and 
they
are wearing 
it. Sickness is the curse of the 
law.

  contrary to 
  philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
  followingpoint:

  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,

  which 
  reflects, e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:

  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of 
  God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given 
  through Moses ..

  counter to 
  the notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross 
  of Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning

  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




the boys can hook 
one up here

On Mon, 30 May 2005 09:55:02 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  No mention of a cd player? 
  
  ||

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

IMO it would.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 08:57
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and 
  John on the Law and the Spirit
  ShieldsFamily wrote: 

 If you are a 
true Believer and dont obey the Law you will still go to heavenjust 
sooner. Izzy
If 
  this is true, would it not be better to disobey?

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread Charles Perry Locke


John, I consider the following a veiled ad hominem reference:

...someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say , similar to 
a dolphin)


Giving a second option (not reading posts), which may or may not be true, 
does not negate or cover the ad hominem part.


Perry


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:43:25 -0400

Here is the perfect example of someone who either does not comprehend at a 
high level (say , similar to a dolphin)   ---  and Linda IS smarter than 
that  OR we have someone who simply does not read the posts she responds 
to.  We have Izzy arguing that God will help us become gods unto our 
selves.  Maybe the Mormon brothers will agree  --  but most of the rest of 
us are left scratching our heads  


Also, here is a great example for the need of interpretative rules.  Does 
God inable us to sin?  He makes ALL THINGS  possible.  Does He enable us to 
steal and murder?   He makes ALL THINGS possible.  But , hhh, wait 
a minute !!  The text says ALL THINGS.   cARS AND BOATS AND, A $500 
LUNKER STICK,  a library full of really good porn  -  all things. 
  If God says it, I beleive  (?)


Think  Hermeneutic.

JD

Gots to go to work.

-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:40 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Then you are arguing with Jesus.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:36 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

No, no they are not.
JD

-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:15:06 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
Luke 10:27 “all things are possible with God.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

When we become gods unto ourselves, wwe attempt the impossible  --



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

USAF, I am classified as a Vietnam Era VetLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In which branch did you serve?

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 25, 2005 15:34
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

If it was not for the US Lance would be speaking the Dutch right now!
Heil Left Wing Ideolog'sShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are you enjoying your politically irrelevant rants Lance? First you say weshould forgive all debts against the USA, then you make remarks that we aregoing to go bankrupt because of the debts, etc. The Bible says lend and donot ask in return. That's basically what we do. We don't worry about. I'msorry you lose sleep over it. Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:05 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sinI understand that monies owed the US total 3 trillion. The 'debt' owed theUS by Europe, Canada and, many other parts of the globe for it's aid in bothdollars and lives is incalculable. This issue though connected, needs to beevaluated
 separately from the current state of affairs in your country.Jesus' Gospel of the inbreaking of the reign of God excludes nothing. TheGospel of the kingdom (Lk 16) suggests that cultural and, politicalawareness are imperative. The privatization of the gospel (personalsalvation to the exclusion of all else) is a shortcoming.- Original Message - From: "Christine Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 24, 2005 16:38Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin  'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?'  LM responds: How so,  Christine? A red herring is an argument that distracts the audience from the issue in question by introducing some irrelevancy. Your speculation that my father is not culturally connected is irrelevant to the topic. Judy picked up on your
 subject-change, and I agreed with her: you seemed to be dodging the question.  CM asserts that I equate cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  this assertion. Well, this is what Judy said (and what I encouraged you to answer):  Have you also tallied up third world debt?Money owed the US by other nations, and the cost  of Canada's irresponsibility the times they opted  out and reaped the benefits anyway? Someone always  pays the price... It is hopelessly naive to think  that if noone does anything - things will right  themselves. Would Europe be Western today if Charles  Martel had not beaten back the Islamic hoard when they  got to Spain? jt And your response was:  The
 vortex of the whirlpool awaits. Why not  ask 'the prophet' if he sees connections where you  and Iz do not? He just might surprize you. If he  did, by the by then, he'd really surprize me! I  believe him to be largely culturally disconnected. I  trust that Christine briefs him when she's home. You did not answer Judy's post. You brought up something irrelevant, and ignored the merits of her argument. My father's cultural awareness has nothing to do with Judy's point. Judy's post is still unanswered. Blessings, Christine --- Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  CM asks of me:'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?' LM responds: How so,  Christine?   CM asserts that I equate cultural awareness with  cultural
 brainwashing. LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  this assertion.  Further, CM asserts that I equate knowledge and  belief. I do not. I did  however, suggest a viewing of The Corporation  together. When you've done so  we might then have a discussion.   CM suggests that Jt refers to something about paying  the price for something  or other. Kindly explain along with the logical  fallacy I fell prey to.   Well done young lady. You have the fancy footwork of  your father. You may  have a career in the ring.- Original Message -   From: "Christine Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  To:   Sent: May 24, 2005 14:35  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What
 is sin JT wrote:Lance I find it curious that no matter what thesubject you are ALWAYS able to revert the  discussionback tosomething critical of David Miller. Judy asserts an interesting point there, Lance.  Isn't   that called a red herring? Also, you seem to equate cultural awareness with   cultural brainwashing. I am not persuaded by the  elite   media, nor the liberalism of our foreign  neighbors.   You imply that if only my father or myself KNEW  the   popular, anti-American sentiments of today, we  would   then have no choice but to agree. Now, why don't you answer
 Judy's response about   someone always paying the price? Her point was   excellent and I have a feeling that is why you   reverted to a logical

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin




May I ask you to enlarge on this brief description? 
I'd write this in Dutch but, I don't have to thanks to you.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin 
  Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 11:02
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: 
  [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin
  
  USAF, I am classified as a Vietnam Era VetLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  



In which branch did you serve?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin Deegan 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 25, 2005 15:34
  Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
  Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin
  
  If it was not for the US Lance would be speaking the Dutch right 
  now!
  Heil Left Wing Ideolog'sShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  Are 
you enjoying your politically irrelevant rants Lance? First you say 
weshould forgive all debts against the USA, then you make remarks 
that we aregoing to go bankrupt because of the debts, etc. The Bible 
says lend and donot ask in return. That's basically what we do. We 
don't worry about. I'msorry you lose sleep over it. 
Izzy-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:05 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
[TruthTalk] What is sinI understand that monies owed the US 
total 3 trillion. The 'debt' owed theUS by Europe, Canada and, many 
other parts of the globe for it's aid in bothdollars and lives is 
incalculable. This issue though connected, needs to beevaluated 
separately from the current state of affairs in your 
country.Jesus' Gospel of the inbreaking of the reign of God 
excludes nothing. TheGospel of the kingdom (Lk 16) suggests that 
cultural and, politicalawareness are imperative. The privatization 
of the gospel (personalsalvation to the exclusion of all else) is a 
shortcoming.- Original Message - From: 
"Christine Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
Sent: May 24, 2005 16:38Subject: 
[Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is 
sin  'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red 
 herring?'  LM responds: How so,  
Christine? A red herring is an argument that distracts 
the audience from the issue in question by introducing 
some irrelevancy. Your speculation that my father is not 
culturally connected is irrelevant to the topic. Judy picked up 
on your subject-change, and I agreed with her: you seemed to be 
dodging the question.  CM asserts that I equate 
cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. LM 
 asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  
this assertion. Well, this is what Judy said (and what I 
encouraged you to answer):  Have you also 
tallied up third world debt?Money owed the US by 
other nations, and the cost  of Canada's irresponsibility 
the times they opted  out and reaped the benefits anyway? 
Someone always  pays the price... It is hopelessly naive to 
think  that if noone does anything - things will 
right  themselves. Would Europe be Western today if 
Charles  Martel had not beaten back the Islamic hoard when 
they  got to Spain? jt And your response 
was:  The vortex of the whirlpool awaits. Why 
not  ask 'the prophet' if he sees connections where 
you  and Iz do not? He just might surprize you. If 
he  did, by the by then, he'd really surprize me! I 
 believe him to be largely culturally disconnected. 
I  trust that Christine briefs him when she's 
home. You did not answer Judy's post. You brought 
up something irrelevant, and ignored the merits of her 
argument. My father's cultural awareness has nothing to do with 
Judy's point. Judy's post is still 
unanswered. Blessings, 
Christine --- Lance Muir 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  CM asks of 
me:'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?' LM responds: 
How so,  Christine?   CM asserts 
that I equate cultural awareness with  cultural 
brainwashing. LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly 
demonstrate  this assertion.  Further, CM 
asserts that I equate knowledge and  belief. I do not. I 
did  however, suggest a viewing of The Corporation 
 together. When you've done so  we might then have a 
discussion.   CM suggests that Jt refers to 
something about paying  the price for something  
or other. Kindly explain along with the logical  fallacy I 
fell prey to.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor
wrote:

I understand what you are saying is dispensational
teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have
been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of
God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe
break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will
reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a
difference between God's moral law and the
Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former
still stands and has not gone anywhere.
We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon
our old flesh naturedead. This is
the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional
acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever
been under the law, unless you were a Jewish
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You
are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong
with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the
Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your
sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that
God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law
awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered
no more." Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is
no longer any offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the
fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of
law.

jt:
Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully
sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and
they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse
of the law.

The curse of the
Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in
Deut 28 -- but it is sickness
unto death “…until you are destroyed, until
you perish quickly …..” (v 20).
In Christ, “He
has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb 2), the
implication being that death has been destroyed.
More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death,
has been rendered powerless by the cross ; (Heb
2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the
“fear of death” (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words:
“Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see
death” (Jo 8:51).

Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your
reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy.
You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the
discussion !!! “By following your (me)
reasoning
--“
ss so
far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely
funny. I do not believe the curse of the Law is
sickness; it is death or the fear of death.

It's not so something is
amiss. The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in
Christ. We must now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to
be found "in Him"
Where
in scripture do I find this requirement – that I must fulfill the
Law as Christ did. Your doctrine of works
is a failure’s

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




but (e.g.) Flipper 
never seemed to take this stuff too seriously

On Mon, 30 May 2005 07:59:40 -0700 "Charles Perry 
Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:.. a veiled ad hominem reference:  
"...someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say ,  
similar toa dolphin)"||

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

How do you know, then, that what you now accept is not due for change sometime in the future? Answer: you don't. This is exactly why Paul wrote I Cor 8:1-3. 

1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

The thoughtful believer never saw any such thing in this text, unless you try real hard to insert your private doctrine here. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Yes and that thoughtful believer just might be you, Christine !! Have you ever changed your mind in regards to the meaning of a particular passage? Of course you have. How do you know, then, that 
what you now accept is not due for change sometime in the future? Answer: you don't. This is 
exactly why Paul wrote I Cor 8:1-3. To know God is to have a relationship with him. 

JD


-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:14:54 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT


Christine:Please! One need not disregard the Bible to believe anything. One
need only disregard your interpretation. What you find to be the plain
meaning of something is not necessarily what another thoughtful believe
might find. Agreed?


- Original Message - 
From: "Christine Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 25, 2005 13:36
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses
Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT


 http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/terminology.htm

 What a wakeup call. I followed this link and found
 this:

 JESUS CHRIST:

 LDS--A created being, the first spirit child of Elohim
 and one of his wives, the spirit brother of Lucifer
 the devil.

 So Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS? I thought Jesus was
 my brother: Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he
 also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of
 his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many
 brethren." Paul is clearly talking about our adoption
 by God the Father, who becomes our Father when we
 "receive" His son (John 1:12) when he says earlier in
 verse 19: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of
 God, they are the sons of God." Lucifer is not led by
 God's Spirit. He is engages in warfare against God's
 Spirit. And he certainly has not received Jesus.

 To believe these things, one must first disregard the
 Bible.

 Blessings,

 Christine

 --- Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  There was a significant word game going on when I
  first arrived on this forum. LDS using words that
  seemed intended to cloak the true LDS understanding.
  I think the christians here have a far better
  understanding of mormonism now then in past years
 
  There are words that are familiar to christians that
  have a different meaning to LDS
  Word   Christian  LDS meaning
  Gentile NON Jew - NON LDS
  angel  created spirit being  - ressurected man
  Virgin birth
  Gospel
  Fall bad -good
  Jesus Christ
  Godhead Trinity - committee composed of gods
  including SATAN
  council in heaven - The meeting in the premortal
  life of the Godhead and spirits designated for this
  earth, in which the plan of salvation was presented.
 
 
 http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/premortal/Council_EOM.htm
  At a certain point in the council, the Father asked,
  "Whom shall I send [as the Redeemer]?" Jesus Christ,
  known then as the great I AM and as Jehovah,
  answered, "Here am I, send me," and agreed to follow
  the Father's plan (Moses 4:1-4; Abr. 3:27). As a
  counter-measure, Lucifer offered himself and an
  amendment to the Father's plan of saving mankind
  that would not respect their agency
 
 
 http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/terminology.htm
 
 
  Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  David, Dave is smarter than you are giving him
  credit for being. He knows
  what he is doing. He is playing a word game. I have
  no problem with him
  pushing his mormon views into the discussions
  here...I just want him to
  acknowledge that is what he is doing. He is
  intentionally misinterpreting
  this as my not wanting him to espouse mormonism on
  the forum. That is NOT my
  goal. My goal is to get him to own his actions. To
  say he is NOT pushing
  mormonism, then push it anyway is disengenuous.
  Then, to turn it around as
  though I do not welcome his mormon views is a lie.
 
  Perry
 
  From: "David Miller"
  Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
  To:
  Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels.
  was: Dave uses Socratic
  Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT
  Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:09:31 -0400
  
  DaveH wrote:
Apparently many TTers want me to teach LDS
  theology on
TT, yet some wish to criticize me for

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Advice heeded DavidM and I doappreciate the 
encouraging words.
Thank You. jt


On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:28:28 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Lance wrote:  Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
what  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking 
 of you.  Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is 
saying to you,  Judy. We

[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




I understand you to be asking me what I believe about 
the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 'the cross over against the incarnation' 
and if Paul preached the cross over against the incarnation.

If the incarnation is left in it's proper setting then 
I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it is taken from it's 
rightful place and made into something God never intended then I would answer 
yes to the above.

1. I agree that God supplied a body for His only 
begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is a fact 
historically.

2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the incarnation 
because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's judgment against sin and 
it does nothing to lead God's ppl into righteousness and holiness

On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Jt:Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
  what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
  you.thanks for this,
  Lance
  
From: Judy Taylor 

Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul preached the 
cross - I see it in his writings. As for this Perichoresis
and Icarnation it would be better if you tell us 
what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not so
sure it is basically different from 
universalism. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the incarnation'? 
  
  Do I understand you to be saying that it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over AGAINST 'the 
  incarnation'?
  What is it that you understand regarding the 
  so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 1. agree 2 
  disagree?
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to both 
questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works 
(obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I will give you 
Paul for the sake of argument -- How did Paul provide you 
with the Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the 
works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point is the 
same. jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the 
miracles but He works through men. 

JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point. 
The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not 
law. Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of 
the fact that I am quoting scripture? 

jt: You still can't escape the "obedience" 
factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham 
obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb 
5:9) and "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God" 
(1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more 
certain that clinging to this incarnational thing is 
folly.JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw 
only danger in their return to the law. These folk are 
converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet, there are 
those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law. 
jt: How can you be sure they were all 
Gentiles 

JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2) 

jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not 
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they 
lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred 
up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation. They 
taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical system in part even without 
a temple; these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 
explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, 
are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh 
and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ. 

JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles, 
but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most 
part.The "flesh" in this passage is the Law. Context 
Judy, context. They had the power -- and Paul is 
saying, do not choose law over Spirit. jt: No, heexhorts them to get out of the flesh and 
back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the 
Law. 

JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to 
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER CHILDREN 
(24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child 
of the promise --- not Hagar and her children.Pay 
special attention to verses 28 and 29 ??? And you brethren,

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

Anyone who got it right the first time is just mistaken according to your personal excuse theory. It explains why you have drifted from one doctrine to another and.
Paul the Apostle got it right the first time because flesh  blood did not reveal it to him. he did not teach doctrines of men. 
How did he know, he had it right? The same way any true christian knows. He had the asurance of God through His word  His Spirit.
What Paul taught was it up for future revision? Was he blown around like you?
Are the doctrines of God due for a change as often as you change yours?

Mk 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this?

YOU NEED SOME GOOD DOCTRINE
Pr 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Mt 15;9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
STOP TEACHING OTHER DOCTRINES
YOU BE THE MINISTER of QUESTIONS!

1 Ti 1:3 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Yes and that thoughtful believer just might be you, Christine !! Have you ever changed your mind in regards to the meaning of a particular passage? Of course you have. How do you know, then, that 
what you now accept is not due for change sometime in the future? Answer: you don't. This is exactly why Paul wrote I Cor 8:1-3. To know God is to have a relationship with him. 

JD


-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:14:54 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT


Christine:Please! One need not disregard the Bible to believe anything. One
need only disregard your interpretation. What you find to be the plain
meaning of something is not necessarily what another thoughtful believe
might find. Agreed?


- Original Message - 
From: "Christine Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 25, 2005 13:36
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses
Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT


 http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/terminology.htm

 What a wakeup call. I followed this link and found
 this:

 JESUS CHRIST:

 LDS--A created being, the first spirit child of Elohim
 and one of his wives, the spirit brother of Lucifer
 the devil.

 So Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS? I thought Jesus was
 my brother: Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he
 also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of
 his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many
 brethren." Paul is clearly talking about our adoption
 by God the Father, who becomes our Father when we
 "receive" His son (John 1:12) when he says earlier in
 verse 19: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of
 God, they are the sons of God." Lucifer is not led by
 God's Spirit. He is engages in warfare against God's
 Spirit. And he certainly has not received Jesus.

 To believe these things, one must first disregard the
 Bible.

 Blessings,

 Christine

 --- Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  There was a significant word game going on when I
  first arrived on this forum. LDS using words that
  seemed intended to cloak the true LDS understanding.
  I think the christians here have a far better
  understanding of mormonism now then in past years
 
  There are words that are familiar to christians that
  have a different meaning to LDS
  Word   Christian  LDS meaning
  Gentile NON Jew - NON LDS
  angel  created spirit being  - ressurected man
  Virgin birth
  Gospel
  Fall bad -good
  Jesus Christ
  Godhead Trinity - committee composed of gods
  including SATAN
  council in heaven - The meeting in the premortal
  life of the Godhead and spirits designated for this
  earth, in which the plan of salvation was presented.
 
 
 http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/premortal/Council_EOM.htm
  At a certain point in the council, the Father asked,
  "Whom shall I send [as the Redeemer]?" Jesus Christ,
  known then as the great I AM and as Jehovah,
  answered, "Here am I, send me," and agreed to follow
  the Father's plan (Moses 4:1-4; Abr. 3:27). As a
  counter-measure, Lucifer offered himself and an
  amendment to the Father's plan of saving mankind
  that would not respect their agency
 
 
 http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/terminology.htm
 
 
  Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  David, Dave is smarter than you are giving him
  credit for being. He knows
  what he is doing. He is playing a word game. I have
  no problem with him
  pushing his mormon views into the discussions
  here...I just want him to
  acknowledge that is what he is doing. He is
  intentionally misinterpreting
  this as my not wanting him to espouse mormonism on
  the forum. That is NOT my
  goal. My goal is to get him to own his actions. To
  say he is NOT pushing

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




So then, failing to get the point carries the day 
once more! Kudos David! Fire moderators. Warn people not to respond. Commend a 
Mormon while critiquing a Christian. Hi kids! Can we all say the word 'control'? 


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 11:55
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
  Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  
  Advice heeded DavidM and I doappreciate the 
  encouraging words.
  Thank You. jt
  
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:28:28 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  Lance wrote:  Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
  what  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking 
   of you.  Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he 
  is saying to you,  Judy. We

RE: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin




My AF Academy grad, former F-15 pilot son (and I) salute 
you! Have a blessed Memorial Day. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin 
DeeganSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:02 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

USAF, I am classified as a Vietnam Era VetLance Muir 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  

  In which branch did you serve?
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: May 25, 2005 15:34
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

If it was not for the US Lance would be speaking the Dutch right 
now!
Heil Left Wing Ideolog'sShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
Are 
  you enjoying your politically irrelevant rants Lance? First you say 
  weshould forgive all debts against the USA, then you make remarks that 
  we aregoing to go bankrupt because of the debts, etc. The Bible says 
  lend and donot ask in return. That's basically what we do. We don't 
  worry about. I'msorry you lose sleep over it. 
  Izzy-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:05 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] 
  [TruthTalk] What is sinI understand that monies owed the US total 
  3 trillion. The 'debt' owed theUS by Europe, Canada and, many other 
  parts of the globe for it's aid in bothdollars and lives is 
  incalculable. This issue though connected, needs to beevaluated 
  separately from the current state of affairs in your 
  country.Jesus' Gospel of the inbreaking of the reign of God 
  excludes nothing. TheGospel of the kingdom (Lk 16) suggests that 
  cultural and, politicalawareness are imperative. The privatization of 
  the gospel (personalsalvation to the exclusion of all else) is a 
  shortcoming.- Original Message - From: "Christine 
  Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
  Sent: May 24, 2005 16:38Subject: 
  [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is 
  sin  'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red 
   herring?'  LM responds: How so,  
  Christine? A red herring is an argument that distracts 
  the audience from the issue in question by introducing 
  some irrelevancy. Your speculation that my father is not 
  culturally connected is irrelevant to the topic. Judy picked up on 
  your subject-change, and I agreed with her: you seemed to be 
  dodging the question.  CM asserts that I equate 
  cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. LM 
   asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  
  this assertion. Well, this is what Judy said (and what I 
  encouraged you to answer):  Have you also 
  tallied up third world debt?Money owed the US by 
  other nations, and the cost  of Canada's irresponsibility the 
  times they opted  out and reaped the benefits anyway? Someone 
  always  pays the price... It is hopelessly naive to 
  think  that if noone does anything - things will right 
   themselves. Would Europe be Western today if Charles  
  Martel had not beaten back the Islamic hoard when they  got to 
  Spain? jt And your response was:  The 
  vortex of the whirlpool awaits. Why not  ask 'the prophet' if 
  he sees connections where you  and Iz do not? He just might 
  surprize you. If he  did, by the by then, he'd really surprize 
  me! I  believe him to be largely culturally disconnected. 
  I  trust that Christine briefs him when she's 
  home. You did not answer Judy's post. You brought 
  up something irrelevant, and ignored the merits of her 
  argument. My father's cultural awareness has nothing to do with 
  Judy's point. Judy's post is still 
  unanswered. Blessings, 
  Christine --- Lance Muir 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  CM asks of 
  me:'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?' LM responds: How 
  so,  Christine?   CM asserts that I 
  equate cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. 
  LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly 
  demonstrate  this assertion.  Further, CM asserts 
  that I equate knowledge and  belief. I do not. I did 
   however, suggest a viewing of The Corporation  together. 
  When you've done so  we might then have a discussion. 
CM suggests that Jt refers to something about 
  paying  the price for something  or other. Kindly 
  explain along with the logical  fallacy I fell prey 
  to.   Well done young lady. You have the fancy 
  footwork of  your father. You may  have a career 
  in the ring.- Original Message 
  -   From: "Christine Miller"

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along
the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to
say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.
You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten
a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you
have broken them all).
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how
am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always been Christ. Israel are the
natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's
ppl are God's ppl in every generation and
basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his
teachings you will find they reflect the
Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says
that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is
a difference between God's moral law and
the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can
fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and
I wrestle with periodically. The gospel
he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and
does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you
has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing
wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah
and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the
law.

The
curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 --
but it is sickness unto death until
you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In
Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb
2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More
than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered
powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these
words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never
see death (Jo 8:51).

The contrast is law verses
Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain,
David. Therefore, the faith

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

I suspected as much but, feared reprisal from our 
new moderator for saying so.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 12:52
  Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

  No. Im really 
  that stupid. Duh. 

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:07 
  AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry 
  vs DaveH

  Ahhh but, 
  that's exactly what 'he' believes himself to be doing. He believes that 'you' 
  are not. You do understand that don't you?

  - Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: May 30, 2005 
08:45

Subject: [Bulk] RE: 
[TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

No. You must 
endure to the end in Christ. Enduring to the end in JSmith doesnt 
cut it. Sorry. Iz

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DaveSent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:36 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs 
DaveH

DAVEH: I appreciate your concern for my 
eternal welfare, Izzy. Would it be OK with you if I first endure to 
the end before getting saved, as the Savior suggested?ShieldsFamily 
wrote: 
I vote for (4) Get saved and talk about 
the REAL Jesus! J 
Izzy

-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




No. I am asking you Judy since you are the one I am 
communicating with at present. I've no idea who that is on that 'cross' you are 
preaching. It'd appear not to be the eternal, incarnate, Son, the Person of the 
Trinitarian God Who was neither the Father nor the Spirit.

ginal Message - 

  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 12:41
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
  Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  No I am asking you Lance since you are the one I am 
  communicating with at present.
  The way I see it responding to the cross causes us to 
  agree with God that in our flesh dwells no good thing so we agree to die to 
  the old man and walk in the newness of the Spirit. Whereas the 
  "incarnational gospel" tells everyone God loves them as is and they are "in" 
  because of the DBR of Christ. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:25:57 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
As you find in him authority, why not ask David 
if he might speak of the relation of the Incarnation to the Atonement? 


From: Judy Taylor 

  I understand you to be 
  asking me what I believe about the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 
  'the cross over against the incarnation' and if Paul preached the cross 
  over against the incarnation.
  
  If the incarnation is left in it's proper setting 
  then I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it is taken 
  from it's rightful place and made into something God never intended then I 
  would answer yes to the above.
  
  1. I agree that God supplied a body for His only 
  begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is a fact 
  historically.
  
  2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the 
  incarnation because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's 
  judgment against sin and it does nothing to lead God's ppl into 
  righteousness and holiness
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Please read my post one more time. Tell 
me what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
you.thanks for this,
Lance

  From: Judy 
  Taylor 
  
  Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul 
  preached the cross - I see it in his writings. As for this 
  Perichoresis
  and Icarnation it would be better if you tell 
  us what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not 
  so
  sure it is basically different from 
  universalism. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the 
incarnation'? 
Do I understand you to be saying that 
it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over 
AGAINST 'the incarnation'?
What is it that you understand 
regarding the so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 1. 
agree 2 disagree?

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer 
  to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the 
  works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I 
  will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How did 
  Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of miracles 
  -- through the works of the Law or by the hearing with 
  faith. My point is the same. jt: 
  Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but He works through 
  men. 
  
  JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my 
  point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because 
  of faith, not law. Can you understand how I might 
  believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting 
  scripture? 
  
  jt: You still can't escape the 
  "obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie 
  "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all 
  them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of them 
  that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting 
  scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that clinging to 
  this incarnational thing is folly.JD: They were 
  SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return 
  to the law. These folk are converted 
  Gentiles. They are

[TruthTalk] Indy 500

2005-05-30 Thread Ruben Israel

Kevin give us a preach report on
the Indy 500.

Preaching That Cuts, here are a
few sections taken from Catherines Booth (co-founder of the Salvation Army)
final public address:On holiness: But supposing they do get pardoned from
their past sins, they do not realize that Jesus has the power to deliver them
from the sin reigning in their hearts; from their besetting sins; from that
which constitutes their misery. Perhaps on no point has The Salvation Army
suffered persecution more than on this one point of its teaching.that He not
only washes their past sins away but has the power to keep them from their sins,
and will, if they trust in Him, enable them to live in righteousness and
holiness all their lives, walking in obedience to His commands, keeping that
inner law of which we have just heard-the law of Christ-which is the most
perfect law and fulfills all others-loving the Lord thy God with all the heart,
mind, soul, and strength, and thy neighbor as thyselfEven in a Christian land
this is not known, and consequently, we have professing Christians the most
ready of all to persecute us when we announce such a doctrine.On evangelism:A man who was sitting in his easy-chair,
with his feet on an ottoman, said to me the other day: But the Lord will come
presently and put all things right. I replied: I am afraid you are expecting
the Lord to do what He has called us to do. The Lord does not say He will go
and preach the Gospel to every creature; He says you are to go and do it. He
does not say He is going to convert the world; He says you are going to do
it..How are you going to get them down from their tower of self-satisfaction,
sin, and pleasure? Do you think they are coming down by you saying, Here, come
along; hear me; let me preach to you. Come and be converted? Oh no! The
Christian Church has been trying that game too long. The people are far to busy.
They turn around and tell you so. They say, I am doing a great work; I cannot
come to you. Listen to what Jesus Christ commissioned His disciples to do. Not
to ensconce themselves in comfortable buildings and invite people to come, and
then, if they would not come, leave them alone to be damned. No, no! He said:
Go ye, which means, Go after them. Where, Lord? Into all the world. What
to do? Preach the Gospel to every creature.On balanced preaching: You would think, if you heard some
peoples representation of the truth of God, that it was all honey and soap; you
would not think there was any cut in it any dividing asunder. You must preach Gods justice and
vengeance against sin as well as His love for the sinner. You must preach Hell
as well as Heaven. You must let your Gospel match the intuitions of humanity, or
you may as well throw it into the sea, and thus save both trouble and money. A
Gospel of love never matched anybodies souls. The great want in this day is
truth that cuts; convicting truth; truth that convicts and convinces the sinner
and pulls of the bandages from his eyes. The Lord knows the order in which His
truth ought to be preached better than we do. Hence His commission to Paul, to
go and open the eyes of sinners to their danger, and turn them round from the
power of Satan unto God. This was to be done before they were converted. Oh!
says someone, do not talk to them about Hell, death, and judgment; show them
the love of Christ. But we always get wrong when we reverse Gods order. Tear
the bandages off. Open their eyes, turn them round from the desire, the embrace
and choice of evil to the embrace and choice of God. That they may receive
forgiveness of sins. Tell them the truth; tell a man the truth
about himself. Drive in the red-hot, convicting truth of God on to his
conscience, and make him realize that he is a sinner. Never mind how he howls,
even if he groans as loud as the Psalmist did when the pains of Hell got hold of
him. Until he has been made to feel himself a sinner he will never make anything
of a saint. Then give him the Gospel.

RE: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH




I suspected you suspected as much. Thanks. 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance 
MuirSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:07 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: 
[TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

I suspected as much but, feared reprisal from our 
new moderator for saying so.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 12:52
  Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH
  
  
  No. Im really 
  that stupid. Duh. 
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:07 
  AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry 
  vs DaveH
  
  
  Ahhh but, 
  that's exactly what 'he' believes himself to be doing. He believes that 'you' 
  are not. You do understand that don't you?
  
  
  
  - Original Message - 
  
  

From: ShieldsFamily 


To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: May 30, 2005 
08:45

Subject: [Bulk] RE: 
[TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH


No. You must 
endure to the end in Christ. Enduring to the end in JSmith doesnt 
cut it. Sorry. Iz





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DaveSent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:36 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perry vs 
DaveH

DAVEH: I appreciate your concern for my 
eternal welfare, Izzy. Would it be OK with you if I first endure to 
the end before getting saved, as the Savior suggested?ShieldsFamily 
wrote: 
I vote for (4) Get saved and talk about 
the REAL Jesus! J 
Izzy


-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking 
about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; 
like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? 
If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry 
CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff 
along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say 
about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I 
am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham 
sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy 
Taylor wrote: 

  Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I 
  wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
  am missing it? judyt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor 
wrote: 

  
  I understand what you are saying is 
  dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has 
  always been Christ. Israel are the 
  natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's 
  ppl are God's ppl in every generation and 
  basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his 
  teachings you will find they reflect the Law 
  given at Sinai. jt
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of 
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she 
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

  
  Terry the law still judges us 
  wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" 
  says that we will reap as we sow. It 
  isnot necessary to be a Jewish 
  proselyte. Also there is a difference 
  between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been 
  nailed to the cross, the former still 
  stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through 
  Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the 
  problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional 
  acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has 
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish 
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John 
  wrote:You are a legalist, 
  David.
  
  David wrote: Thank you. 
  Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist 
  too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your 
  sins.
  
  John responds: There can be no 
  argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse 
  of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities 
  are remembered no more." Where there is forgiveness of these 
  things, there is no longer any offering for sin 
  -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have 
  the end of law.
  
  jt: Christ did not become a curse 
  for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is 
  still all over those ppl and 
  they
  are wearing it. Sickness is the curse 
  of the law.
  
  The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual 
  death). Deut 28:20. 
  Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 
  -- but it is sickness unto 
  death until you are destroyed, until you 
  perish quickly .. (v 20). In 
  Christ, He has [tasted] death for 
  everyone (Heb 2), the implication being that 
  death has been destroyed. More than this, 
  Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered 
  powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we 
  might be delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of 
  death (2:15). Christ, 
  Himself, describes the victory in these words: Truly I say unto 
  you, if anyone keeps my word,

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 but (e.g.) Flipper never seemed to take this
 stuff too seriously

Maybe that's why Flipper isn't a son of God and why he isn't on TruthTalk. 
:-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Lance wrote:
 Warn people not to respond.

I did not warn her not to respond.  I asked her to be careful in how she 
responded.  You guys do not realize it, but you come across the way the 
Pharisees and scholars of Jesus day questioned Jesus.  The questions seem 
simple enough, but they merely setup answers by which ammunition can be 
taken to attack and accuse.  I would like to see Judy answer your question 
about how she understands your doctrine of the Incarnation, but she should 
be careful in how she answers you.  I don't want to read a repeat of what 
John did to me, accusing me of misrepresenting and misquoting him.  You seem 
to understand more about language, semantics and syntax, than John does, but 
your reaction to John's dialogue with me gives me concern for Judy and hence 
my encouragement for her to use wisdom.  I think she understands where I am 
coming from.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is RELY.  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not 
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Amen, David.  And does Terry believe this? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is RELY.  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not

after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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[TruthTalk] NIV Bible Quiz

I received this in my inbox and thought some might like to take this test. 
I think we may have posted this some years back on TruthTalk.
David Miller.

---
NIV BIBLE QUIZ

INSTRUCTIONS:
Using the New International Version Bible (NIV),
answer the following questions.  Do not rely on your
memory. As the Bible is the final authority, you must
take the answer from the NIV Bible verse (Not from
footnotes but from the text. Footnotes are not the Bible.).

1. Fill in the missing words in Matthew 5:44. Love your enemies,  
them that curse you, _ to them that hate you, and pray for them 
that __ and persecute you.
2. According to Matthew 17:21, what two things are required to cast out this 
type of devil?
3. According to Matthew 18:11, why did Jesus come to earth?
4. According to Matthew 27:2, what was Pilate's first name?
5. In Matthew 27:35, when the wicked soldiers parted His garments, they were 
fulfilling the words of the prophet. Copy what the prophet said in Matthew 
27:35 from the NIV. 6. In Mark 3:15, Jesus gave the apostles power to cast 
out devils and to:
7. According to Mark 7:16, what does a man need to be able to hear?
8. According to Luke 7:28, what was John? (teacher, prophet, carpenter, 
etc.). What is his title or last name?
9. In Luke 9:55, what did the disciples not know?
10. In Luke 9:56, what did the Son of man not come to do? According to this 
verse, what did He come to do?
11. In Luke 22:14, how many apostles were with Jesus?
12. According to Luke 23:38, in what three languages was the superscription 
written?
13. In Luke 24:42, what did they give Jesus to eat with His fish?
14. John 3:13 is a very important verse, proving the deity of Christ. 
According to this verse (as Jesus spoke), where is the Son of man?
15. What happened each year as told in John 5:4?
16. In John 7:50, what time of day did Nicodemus come to Jesus?
17. In Acts 8:37, what is the one requirement for baptism?
18. What did Saul ask Jesus in Acts 9:6?
19. Write the name of the man mentioned in Acts 15:34.
20. Study Acts 24:6-8. What would the Jew have done with Paul? What was the 
chief captain's name? What did the chief captain command?
21. Copy Romans 16:24 word for word from the NIV.
22. First Timothy 3:16 is perhaps the greatest verse in the New Testament 
concerning the deity of Christ. In this verse, who was manifested in the 
flesh?
23. In the second part of First Peter 4:14, how do [they] speak of Christ? 
And, what do we Christians do?
24. Who are the three Persons of the Trinity in First John 5:7?
25. Revelation 1:11 is another very important verse that proves the deity of 
Christ. In the first part of this verse Jesus said, I am the A__ 
and O___ , the _ and the ___:

Conclusion: Little space is provided for your answers, but it's much more 
than needed. If you followed the instructions above, you not only failed the 
test, you receive a big goose egg. So now what do you think of your 
accurate, easy-to-understand, up-to-date Bible? If these 25 questions 
haven't served to show you that the NIV is a very inferior Bible, based on a 
very inferior Greek text, write me and I'll make up another quiz with 25 
more questions, or 250, if you wish; but you will still flunk the text. If 
you would like to improve your score, and in fact score 100%, you can take 
this test using the Authorized (King James) Bible .
by Rex L. Cobb

NIV Reader: Do you have enough confidence in the NIV to...
tell God, OUT LOUD, that the NIV is correct in deleting
these words (64,098 words to be exact)  phrases?


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




It's not; actually it is Jesus of Nazareth, only 
begotten Son of God who was the Word made flesh who came
and dwelt for a time amongst us. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:11:09 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No. I am asking you Judy since you are the one I am 
communicating with at present. I've no idea who that is on that 'cross' you 

are preaching. It'd appear not 
to be the eternal, incarnate, Son, the Person of the Trinitarian God Who was 
neither the Father nor the Spirit.

  
  From: Judy Taylor 
  
No I am asking you Lance 
since you are the one I am communicating with at present.
The way I see it responding to the cross causes us 
to agree with God that in our flesh dwells no good thing so we agree to die 
to the old man and walk in the newness of the Spirit. Whereas the 
"incarnational gospel" tells everyone God loves them as is and they are "in" 
because of the DBR of Christ. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:25:57 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  As you find in him authority, why not ask 
  David if he might speak of the relation of the Incarnation to the 
  Atonement? 
  
  From: Judy Taylor 
  
I understand you to be 
asking me what I believe about the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 
'the cross over against the incarnation' and if Paul preached the cross 
over against the incarnation.

If the incarnation is left in it's proper 
setting then I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it 
is taken from it's rightful place and made into something God never 
intended then I would answer yes to the above.

1. I agree that God supplied a body for His 
only begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is 
a fact historically.

2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the 
incarnation because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's 
judgment against sin and it does nothing to lead God's ppl into 
righteousness and holiness

On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Please read my post one more time. 
  Tell me what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
  you.thanks for this,
  Lance
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul 
preached the cross - I see it in his writings. As for this 
Perichoresis
and Icarnation it would be better if you 
tell us what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not 
so
sure it is basically different from 
universalism. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the 
  incarnation'? 
  Do I understand you to be saying that 
  it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over 
  AGAINST 'the incarnation'?
  What is it that you understand 
  regarding the so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 
  1. agree 2 disagree?
  
From: Judy Taylor 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer 
to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the 
works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I 
will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How 
did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of 
miracles -- through the works of the Law or by the 
hearing with faith. My point is the same. jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but 
He works through men. 

JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my 
point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were 
because of faith, not law. Can you understand how I 
might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting 
scripture? 

jt: You still can't escape the 
"obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie 
"By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to 
all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of 
them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am 
quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that 
clinging to this incarnational thing is

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Oh, you are referring to the Levitical system that was
nailed to the cross; John and I have been discussing God's
moral law (at least I have). Surely you don't believe
the 10 Commandments were just for the children of Israel
or do you? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along
the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about
gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am
sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham
sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them
all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor
wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always been Christ. Israel are the
natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11).
God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation
and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his
teachings you will find they reflect the Law
given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God"
says that we will reap as we sow.
It isnot necessary to be a Jewish
proselyte. Also there is a difference
between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been
nailed to the cross, the former still
stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through
Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the
problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional
acceptance to everyone and does not deal with
theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John
wrote:You are a legalist,
David.

David wrote: Thank
you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a
legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to
die for your sins.

John responds: There can be
no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the
curse of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and
iniquities are remembered no more." Where there is
forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for
sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the
Law, we have the end of
law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse
is still all over those ppl and
they
are wearing it. Sickness is the
curse of the law.

The curse of the Law, Judy, is death
(spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in
Deut 28 -- but it is
sickness unto death “…until you are
destroyed, until you perish quickly …..” (v 20).
In Christ,
“He has [tasted] death for everyone
(Heb 2), the implication being that death has been
destroyed. More than this, Satan
Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless
by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the “fear of
death” (2:15). Christ,
Himself, describes the victory

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH



When we speak of the Great Dance -- we can call this sort of activity the Legalist Shuffle !!
Dripping with ad hom and no one can prove a thing  awesome. Did I say 
"ad hom?" What ad hom (on second thought). You are a genius, oh Wise Guru of the North Country. 

Ca B ---out!!-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:07:12 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH





I suspected as much but, feared reprisal from our new moderator for saying so.

- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 30, 2005 12:52
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH


No. Im really that stupid. Duh.

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin


Tell him THANK YOU (seriously) from all of us, left or right. -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:00:20 -0500Subject: RE: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin



My AF Academy grad, former F-15 pilot son (and I) salute you! Have a blessed Memorial Day. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:02 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

USAF, I am classified as a Vietnam Era VetLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



In which branch did you serve?

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 25, 2005 15:34
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin

If it was not for the US Lance would be speaking the Dutch right now!
Heil Left Wing Ideolog'sShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are you enjoying your politically irrelevant rants Lance? First you say weshould forgive all debts against the USA, then you make remarks that we aregoing to go bankrupt because of the debts, etc. The Bible says lend and donot ask in return. That's basically what we do. We don't worry about. I'msorry you lose sleep over it. Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:05 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sinI understand that monies owed the US total 3 trillion. The 'debt' owed theUS by Europe, Canada and, many other parts of the globe for it's aid in bothdollars and lives is incalculable. This issue though connected, needs to beevaluated separately from the current state of affairs in yo
ur country.Jesus' Gospel of the inbreaking of the reign of God excludes nothing. TheGospel of the kingdom (Lk 16) suggests that cultural and, politicalawareness are imperative. The privatization of the gospel (personalsalvation to the exclusion of all else) is a shortcoming.- Original Message - From: "Christine Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: May 24, 2005 16:38Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin  'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?'  LM responds: How so,  Christine? A red herring is an argument that distracts the audience from the issue in question by introducing some irrelevancy. Your speculation that my father is not culturally connected is irrelevant to the topic. Judy picked up on your subject-change, and I agreed with her: you seemed to be dodging the question.  CM a
sserts that I equate cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  this assertion. Well, this is what Judy said (and what I encouraged you to answer):  Have you also tallied up third world debt?Money owed the US by other nations, and the cost  of Canada's irresponsibility the times they opted  out and reaped the benefits anyway? Someone always  pays the price... It is hopelessly naive to think  that if noone does anything - things will right  themselves. Would Europe be Western today if Charles  Martel had not beaten back the Islamic hoard when they  got to Spain? jt And your response was:  The vortex of the whirlpool awaits. Why not  ask 'the prophet' if he sees connections where you  and Iz do not? He just might surprize you. I
f he  did, by the by then, he'd really surprize me! I  believe him to be largely culturally disconnected. I  trust that Christine briefs him when she's home. You did not answer Judy's post. You brought up something irrelevant, and ignored the merits of her argument. My father's cultural awareness has nothing to do with Judy's point. Judy's post is still unanswered. Blessings, Christine --- Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  CM asks of me:'Lanceisn't 'that'(?) a red  herring?' LM responds: How so,  Christine?   CM asserts that I equate cultural awareness with  cultural brainwashing. LM  asks:Using the context of my post kindly demonstrate  this assertion.  Further, CM asserts that I equate knowledge and  belief.. I do not. I did
  however, suggest a viewing of The Corporation  together. When you've done so  we might then have a discussion.   CM suggests that Jt refers to something about paying  the price for something  or other. Kindly explain along with the logical  fallacy I fell prey to.   Well done young lady. You have the fancy footwork of  your father. You may  have a career in the ring.- Original Message -   From: "Christine Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  To:   Sent: May 24, 2005 14:35  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] What is sin JT wrote:Lance I find it curious that no matter what thesubject you are ALWAYS able to revert the  discussionback to  
t;  something critical of

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Terry believes that he is to follow his Savior, die to self, do as He
says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep in tabernacles or eat
unleavened bread. Terry does not need a priest. Terry is a priest,
the same as any other born again believer. I can eat a lobster without
fear of angering God and I can go straight to the Lord with my prayers
from any place on this earth on any day of the week. Show me one
person under the law that can do that.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  Amen, David.  And does Terry believe this? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
  
  
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

  
  
I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is "RELY."  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not

after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. This sentence is something that I do not believe. Are you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? We accomplish nothing but self destruction when we try to become gods unto ourselves. I am hoping that you agree.
If not, its cultsville for you, my dear.  

JD





-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:58:24 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Obviously by speaking in context I am way over your head, JD. Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. If you read the context of Luke 10:7 you would realize that Jesus was speaking to the disciples about the, on human terms, inability of sinnners to enter the Kingdom--but all things are possible with God. I'll leave you to connect the dots. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:43 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Here is the perfect example of someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say , similar to a dolphin) --- and Linda IS smarter than that OR we have someone who simply does not read the posts she responds to. We have Izzy arguing that God will help us become gods unto our selves. Maybe the Mormon brothers will agree -- but most of the rest of us are left scratching our heads  

Also, here is a great example for the need of interpretative rules. Does God inable us to sin? He makes ALL THINGS possible. Does He enable us to steal and murder? He makes ALL THINGS possible. But , hhh, wait a minute !! The text says "ALL THINGS." cARS AND BOATS AND, A $500 LUNKER STICK, a library full of really good porn - all "things." If God says it, I beleive (?) 

Think " Hermeneutic."

JD

Gots to go to work. -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:40 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I believe that all the law given to Moses was for the children of
Isreal. That is what the Bible says and I believe the Bible to be
true. That includes the ten commandments. Even if you tried, you
could not keep the law, Judy. It has never been done by anyone but
Christ. I live by the teaching of my Savior, and consider His two
commands to cover all moral law. Jesus is the alpha and the omega. It
is Him for me, A to Z, start to finish. He is all I need.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Oh, you are referring to the Levitical
system that was nailed to the cross; John and I have been discussing
God's
moral law (at least I have). Surely you
don't believe the 10 Commandments were just for the children of Israel
or do you? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff
along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had
to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.
You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten
a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you
have broken them all).
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and
how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying
is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it
has always been Christ. Israel are the
natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's
ppl are God's ppl in every generation and
basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his
teachings you will find they reflect the
Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children
of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says
that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is
a difference between God's moral law and
the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can
fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and
I wrestle with periodically. The gospel
he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and
does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of
you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing
wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah
and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the
law.

The
curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 --
but it is sickness unto death until
you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In
Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb
2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More
than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered
powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in
these words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall
never see death (Jo 8:51).

[TruthTalk] Old Glory...long may it wave

2005-05-30 Thread Ruben Israel




Kevin:
USAF, I am classified as a Vietnam Era Vet


Some things regarding Old Glory you might not have 
known, and so much for separation of Church and State. 

A) when Folding the American 
Flag 

1. Bring 
the striped half up over the blue field.
2. Then 
fold it in half again.
3. Bring 
the lower striped corner to the upper edge forming a triangle.
4. Then 
fold the upper point in to form another triangle. Continueuntil the entire 
length of the flag is folded.
5. When you 
get near the end - nothing but the blue field showing -tuck the last bit 
into the other folds to secure it.

When the flag is completely folded, the 
stars are uppermost, reminding us of our national motto, In God We Trust. 


After the flag is completely folded and 
tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the 
soldiers who served under General George Washington and the sailors and marines 
who served under Captain John Paul Jones who were followed by their comrades and 
shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for us the 
rights, privileges, and freedoms we enjoy today. 

B) Or the 
Meaning of the Folding the American Flag

The flag folding ceremony represents 
the same religious principles on which our great country was originally 
founded.The portion of the flag denoting honor is the canton of blue 
containing the stars representing states our veterans served in uniform. The 
canton field of blue dresses from left to right and is inverted only when draped 
as a pall on the casket of a veteran who has served our country honorably in 
uniform.In the Armed Forces of the United States, 
at the ceremony of retreat, the flag is lowered, folded in a triangle fold and 
kept under watch throughout the night as a tribute to our nations honored dead. 
The next morning it is brought out and, at the ceremony of reveille, run aloft 
as a symbol of our belief in the resurrection of the body. 

  The first fold of our flag is a 
  symbol of life. 
  The second fold is a symbol of our 
  belief in the eternal life. 
  The third fold is made in honor and 
  remembrance of the veteran departing our ranks and who gave a portion of life 
  for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world. 
  
  The fourth fold represents our weaker 
  nature; for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him weturn in 
  times of peace as well as in times of war for His divine guidan 
  The fifth fold is a tribute to our 
  country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, Our country, in dealingwith 
  other countries, may she always be right, but it is still our country, right 
  or wrong. 
  The sixth fold is for where our 
  hearts lie. It is with our heart that we pledge allegiance to the flag of 
  theUnited States of America, and to the republic for which it stand, one 
  nation under God, indivisible, withliberty and justice for all. 
  
  The seventh fold is a tribute to our 
  Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that we protect our country 
  and our flag against all enemies, whether they be found within or without the 
  boundaries of our republic. 
  
  The eighth fold is a tribute to the 
  one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that wemight see 
  the light of day, and to honor our mother, for whom it flies on Mothers Day. 
  
  The ninth fold is a tribute to 
  womanhood, for it has been through their faith, love, loyalty and 
  devotionthat the character of the men and women who have made this country 
  great have been molded. 
  The tenth fold is a tribute to 
  father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense 
  ofour country since he or she was first born. 
  The eleventh fold, in the eyes of 
  Hebrew citizens, represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and 
  King Solomon and glorifies, in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and 
  Jacob. 
  The twelfth fold, in the eyes of a 
  Christian citizen, represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in their 
  eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost. 
C) Do you know how to Display the 
Flag

1. When the flag is displayed over the 
middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the 
north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street. 


2. The flag of the United States of 
America, when it is displayed with another flag 
against a wall from crossed staffs, should be on the right, the flag's own right 
and its staff should be in front of the staff of the other flag. 


3. The flag, when flown at half-staff, 
should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the 
half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is 
lowered for the day. By "half-staff" is meant lowering the flag to one-half the 
distance between the top and bottom of the staff.

4. When flags of States, cities, or 
localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with

Re: [TruthTalk] Las Vegas Street preachers arrested

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3379553nav=15MVaB2T

Be sure to click the real video link


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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





somebody made his 
kind a valid reference point for inteligence--Flippermay enjoy 
thatcircumstancewherever he comes up

On Mon, 30 May 2005 15:08:01 -0400 "David Miller" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:Flipper isn't.. on TruthTalk.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






[Rom 
8:3]
the law was 
powerless..[8:4].. [therefore] ..walk not after the flesh, but after the 
Spirit
'was powerless' (in 
Rom 8:3, above)also refers to (e.g.) Neh 10, as does Gal 3:10, 
below--thatthe Lawwas powerless while in effect is germane to the Ap 
Paul's point in both NT/argument contexts

[Gal 3:10}All 
who rely on observing the law are under a curse

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

ALL current prophets disown the doctrine.
What about past prophets?
The prophet will just sometimes lead astray then??
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Kevion wrote: Adam God is even in your standard works, hardly "a little vague"

Blaine:Really? Where? To my knowledge, it is not and never was in any standard work of the Church, eg, the Book of Mormon, the DC,theP of GP, definitely not in the Bible (also a Standard Work).What little bit there was to it in any other written form went the way of Brigham Young and a few others of his generation--it died a long time ago, or would have but for enemies of the Church who still use it to grind their axes on. ALL current prophets disown the doctrine. It was never accepted by the church membership as an official doctrine. Please note the name of the Church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--no doctrine is official unless voted on and sustained by the general Church membership, and this just never happened, regardless of what a few
 promoters of the doctrine may have tried to do. So, Kevin, ol' bud, just give it up.You sound like the man who tries to prove Elvis is still alive, despite all the evidence that he died, is buried, and his body is rotting in a grave (and his soul is probably rotting in HELL!).


In a message dated 5/24/2005 11:16:32 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Maybe Brigham was being a little vague in referring to him as a "God," 

"He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." 

The prophets called him God and a bunch of your offshoots say that the utah LDS are apostates for not following these prophets.
Adam God is even in your standard works, hardly "a little vague"
It was taught in general Conference
“never yet preached a sermon and sent out to the children of men that they may not call Scripture.” Young
It was doctrine not Theory
"Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation." Young
It was taught for a number of years by a number of prophets

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Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

ALL current prophets disown the doctrine.
What about past prophets?
The prophet will just sometimes lead astray then??
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Kevion wrote: Adam God is even in your standard works, hardly "a little vague"

Blaine:Really? Where? To my knowledge, it is not and never was in any standard work of the Church, eg, the Book of Mormon, the DC,theP of GP, definitely not in the Bible (also a Standard Work).What little bit there was to it in any other written form went the way of Brigham Young and a few others of his generation--it died a long time ago, or would have but for enemies of the Church who still use it to grind their axes on. ALL current prophets disown the doctrine. It was never accepted by the church membership as an official doctrine. Please note the name of the Church--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--no doctrine is official unless voted on and sustained by the general Church membership, and this just never happened, regardless of what a few
 promoters of the doctrine may have tried to do. So, Kevin, ol' bud, just give it up.You sound like the man who tries to prove Elvis is still alive, despite all the evidence that he died, is buried, and his body is rotting in a grave (and his soul is probably rotting in HELL!).


In a message dated 5/24/2005 11:16:32 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Maybe Brigham was being a little vague in referring to him as a "God," 

"He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." 

The prophets called him God and a bunch of your offshoots say that the utah LDS are apostates for not following these prophets.
Adam God is even in your standard works, hardly "a little vague"
It was taught in general Conference
“never yet preached a sermon and sent out to the children of men that they may not call Scripture.” Young
It was doctrine not Theory
"Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation." Young
It was taught for a number of years by a number of prophets

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[TruthTalk] [Fwd: Bible Prophecy - The Omega Letter - News Current Events]







 Original Message 

  

  Subject: 
  Bible Prophecy - The Omega Letter - News  Current Events


  Date: 
  Mon, 30 May 2005 20:51:11 -0400


  From: 
  kyle mengel [EMAIL PROTECTED]


  To: 
  Undisclosed-Recipient:;

  






The prophet Daniel wrote about this
600years before the Roman Empire. Now it is starting to happen !


http://www.omegaletter.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=5427


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

2005-05-30 Thread Charles Perry Locke

John, you certainly are easily entertained! Perhaps you should get out a 
little more!

What else can I say? Izzy opened the door, Lance only walked through it.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:16:15 -0400

When we speak of the Great Dance  --   we can call this sort of activity 
the Legalist Shuffle !!
Dripping with ad hom and no one can prove a thing   
   awesome.  Did I say
ad hom?   What ad hom  (on second thought).  You are a genius, oh Wise 
Guru of the North Country.

Ca  B  ---out!!

-Original Message-
From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:07:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

I suspected as much but, feared reprisal from our new moderator for saying 
so.

- Original Message -
From: ShieldsFamily
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 30, 2005 12:52
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH

No.  I’m really that stupid.  Duh.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

Joseph Smith also declared, "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Translation of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson said, "Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated" (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).

Apostle Orson Pratt stated: "If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN HIS RIGHT MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47)

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt further proclaimed, "The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike" (The Seer, p. 213)

BOM, II Nephi 29:6-10 (Pg.110), "Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible and we need no more Bible Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written."

Joseph Smith stated: "it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.10)
When: "the book [Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew...it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record" (1 Nephi 13:24), but afterwards "thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church...after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles" (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13:26,28). See also Doctrines of Salvation, vol.3, p.190-191. "many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible...Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29:3,10).
When his "revelation" about Adam being God was disputed, Brigham Young stated: "You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe...I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.6).
Orson Pratt's lack of confidence in the Bible is obvious: "...and who, in his right mind, could for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? No one can tell whether even one verse of either the Old or New Testament conveys the ideas of the original author" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 28).
Apostle Bruce McConkie: "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors, many plain and precious things were deleted, in consequence of which error and falsehood poured into the churches. One of the great heresies of modern Christendom is the unfounded assumption that the Bible contains all of the inspired teachings now extant among men" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 82,83).
McConkie continues: The Bible of the Old World has come to us from the manuscripts of antiquity - manuscripts which passed through the hands of uninspired men who changed many parts to suit their own doctrinal ideas. Deletions were common, and, as it now stands, many plain and precious portions and many covenants of the Lord have been lost. As a consequence, those who rely upon it [the Bible] alone stumble and are confused... (The Ensign, December 1985, p 55).

Comparisons made by Mormon Leaders between the Bible and Book of Mormon---President Ezra Taft Benson stated: "Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the Book of Mormon came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation" ("The Keystone of Our

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of T...

Were they the ones with black Skin according to LDS doctrine before 1978?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Blaine: As Lance points out, there are differing opinions regards the doctrine of a Pre-existence in the Bible. Reason stares, however, if we deny the strong probability that we existed before this probationary period. 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven followed Satan,the other 2/3sooner or laterdid . . . what? What happened to them? Are they still up there, floating around in the ethereal mists? I think they took (and many will yet take) tabernacles of flesh, as did the Son of God, whom we look toas atype in ALL things. As he said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."


In a message dated 5/25/2005 5:12:04 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Some, holding to a differing interpretation than your own, actually believe that the scriptures do so teach. I do not count myself among that number.

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 25, 2005 05:07
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

Blaine scripture teaches nothing about any pre-existence so it is all a figment of someone's imagination. The Bible says the hidden things
belong to the Lord but what has been revealed is for the Lord's people and their children... and what is revealed says there is just ONE God. jt


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Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of T...

I only presented the FACT that it was preached at general Conference AND announced as a REVELATION from the Lord!.
BUT this fact means that it was sustained, does it not?
Are you saying Brigham Young was not sustained at general conference
Was it not James Strang that was sustained as Prophet instead of Brigham Young?
Joseph Smith's last revelation was given on June 18, 1844, appointing James J. Strang as his successor. "...to him [James] shall the gathering of the people be...if evil befall me [Joseph] thou shalt lead the flock."
http://www.strangite.org/Board.htm

ONLY JOE HAD AUTHORITY to pass along "1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you. 2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand. 3 And this ye shall know assuredly--that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. 4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead. 5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments; 6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THEY ARE NOT OF ME." (DC 43)

Joe did not appoint B Y! Brigham Young said, "Who ordained me to be the First President of this church on earth? I answer, it is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient." (Millennial Star, Vol. 16, p. 442)

Brigham Young did not assume the presidency of the church upon Joseph's death. He was acknowledged only as the president of the twelve Apostles. The twelve, though, were not called to head the church. Their sole authority was to carry the gospel to the nations of the world and not to govern. The quorum of the twelve form only "a quorum" with authority equal to the three presiding high priests quorum and not equal to the first President. "23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world--thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. 24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned." (DC 107)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 5/25/2005 6:03:14 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

"The President of the Church is the only man on earth authorized by God to go beyond or add to the scriptures" Teachings of theLiving ProphetsP18 published CJCLDS 1982

Blaine: Even the President/prophet must havea sustaining vote for new doctrines he espouses to be accepted--As I said,the sustaining of the Adam-Goddoctrine as official never happened. In several other cases,a sustaining vote did happen, as for instance, the doctrine that little children who die before reaching the age of accountability inherit the Kingdom of God. This doctrine now appears in the DC, for the simple reason it was voted upon and sustained. MANY so-called "doctrines of the LDS Church" do not have this status.Anotherof these is the doctrine that men may become Gods and populate other worlds. Although it is widely believed, it is not in any standard work, nor has it been sustained as an official doctrine by the general membership. As I said, Kevin, Elvis died--trying to prove he is still alive is a lost cause, and only makes sense if
youhave some psycho/emotional investment in believing he lives on. :)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of T...

AG caused such a furor back then  it still does!

He was called "the only God with whom we have to do" by B Young![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Blaine: Adam was the first man. He was the father of our race as we know it. We do not know how he came to exist in the flesh, other than he was, as the Bible states, created from the dust of the earth. In the spirit pre-existence, he was Michael, the Archangel, leader of all the hosts of Heaven who chose to follow the Father and the Son when there was war in heaven. Heheld great authority and responsibility. But he was never worshipped, or at least should not have been. See below:

Kimballwarning: In 1976, LDS prophet and president Spencer Kimball told attendees of a Priesthood session of Conference, “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”

In a message dated 5/25/2005 6:18:43 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This is what I found to be the case many years ago. I should like to hear from the resident Mormons on this, with clarity.

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Deegan 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: May 25, 2005 07:47
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

LDS today, do not teach Adam-God and call it a theory in spite of brigham calling it a doctrine.
They refuse to acknowledge it was ever tasught. Many offshoots have left the church over this doctrine, called fundamentalists because they believe Adam-god is a fundamental of the mormon faith. So LDS have been warned of this "theory" Who is adam?



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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

American Heritage
SIMILAR:Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical. Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Christine, how do you understand Job 1:6Now thee was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.Do you believe the sons of God are similar in context as are the children of God?Christine Miller wrote: 
 The Bible is very clear on what it means to be a child
of God and a brother of Jesus. It requires
interpretation to communicate at all, but when
something is stated blankly (John 1:12), how much spin
can we add before we are misinterpreting? Perhaps I
could have said "misinterpret" instead of "disregard,"
but I do believe the Mormons are genuinely ignoring
the Bible's stance on this one. 

Blessings!
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
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Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

2005-05-30 Thread Charles Perry Locke

Is corrected edition of the Inspired Version an oxymormon?

From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of 
Teaching LDS...

Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:08:00 -0700 (PDT)

Joseph Smith also declared, I believe the Bible as it read when it came 
from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless 
transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors 
(Translation of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson said, Many insertions were made, some of them 
'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications 
and fabrications were perpetrated (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).

Apostle Orson Pratt stated: If it be admitted that the apostles and 
evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove 
of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote Add 
all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, IN 
HIS RIGHT MIND could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form 
to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has 
escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the 
original? (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47)

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt further proclaimed, The Bible has been robbed of 
its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the 
Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many 
times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and 
mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike (The 
Seer, p. 213)

BOM, II Nephi 29:6-10 (Pg.110), Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we 
have got a Bible and we need no more Bible Wherefore because that ye have 
a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye 
suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

Joseph Smith stated: it was apparent that many important points touching 
the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was 
compiled (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.10)

When: the book [Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew...it 
contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve 
apostles bear record (1 Nephi 13:24), but afterwards thou seest the 
formation of that great and abominable church...after the book hath gone 
forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are 
many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book 
of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken 
away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles (Book of Mormon, 
1 Nephi 13:26,28). See also Doctrines of Salvation, vol.3, p.190-191.
many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and 
there cannot be any more Bible...Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye 
need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose 
that I have not caused more to be written (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 
29:3,10).

When his revelation about Adam being God was disputed, Brigham Young 
stated: You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not 
believe...I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of 
the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What 
is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished 
from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child 
(Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.6).
Orson Pratt's lack of confidence in the Bible is obvious: ...and who, in 
his right mind, could for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form 
to be a perfect guide? No one can tell whether even one verse of either the 
Old or New Testament conveys the ideas of the original author (Journal of 
Discourses, vol. 7, p. 28).
Apostle Bruce McConkie: Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or 
designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors, many plain and 
precious things were deleted, in consequence of which error and falsehood 
poured into the churches. One of the great heresies of modern Christendom 
is the unfounded assumption that the Bible contains all of the inspired 
teachings now extant among men (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 82,83).
McConkie continues: The Bible of the Old World has come to us from the 
manuscripts of antiquity - manuscripts which passed through the hands of 
uninspired men who changed many parts to suit their own doctrinal ideas. 
Deletions were common, and, as it now stands, many plain and precious 
portions and many covenants of the Lord have been lost. As a consequence, 
those who rely upon it [the Bible] alone stumble and are confused... (The 
Ensign, December 1985, p 55).

Comparisons made by Mormon Leaders between the Bible and Book of Mormon

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

By the way -- John stands firm in that accusation. So keep bringing it up as if you have won the day. The fact of the matter is this: you can never present apost in which you copied my words. That is the fact of the matter.

JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:18:20 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Lance wrote:
Warn people not to respond.

I did not warn her not to respond. I asked her to be careful in how she
responded. You guys do not realize it, but you come across the way the
Pharisees and scholars of Jesus day questioned Jesus. The questions seem
simple enough, but they merely setup answers by which ammunition can be
taken to attack and accuse. I would like to see Judy answer your question
about how she understands your doctrine of the Incarnation, but she should
be careful in how she answers you. I don't want to read a repeat of what
John did to me, accusing me of misrepresenting and misquoting him. You seem
to understand more about language, semantics and syntax, than John does, but
your reaction to John's dialogue with me gives me concern for Judy and hence
my encouragement for her to use wisdom. I think she understands where I am
coming from.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Judy makes thekeeping of the Law a requirement, arguing that the law is in force to this day. That is both unbiblical and counter to the Law of the Spirit. That is the issue.More than this, she does not have a biblical consider of the incarnation -- something that borders on bothe the occult and the heretical.

JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:26:55 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this
list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is "RELY." I do
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to
comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ.
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law. Read her posts, sometime. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:43:17 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 







On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more." Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the law.

The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut 28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 -- but it is sickness unto death until you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb 2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15). Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall n
ever see death (Jo 8:51). 

 Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy. You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the discussion !!! By following your (me) reasoning --
ss so far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely funny. I do not believe the curse of the Law is sickness; it is death or the fear of death. 


It's not so something is amiss. The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in Christ. We must now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to be found "in Him"
Where in scripture do I find this requirement  that I must fulfill the Law as Christ did. Your doctrine of works is a failures doctrine - offering no hope and

Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH


Yews, Perry, ife is rather simple for me. :-) And I was greatly amused -- what with the perfect crime and all. 

JD-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:57:57 -0700Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveH


John, you certainly are easily entertained! Perhaps you should get out a little more!What else can I say? Izzy opened the door, Lance only walked through it.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveHDate: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:16:15 -0400When we speak of the Great Dance -- we can call this sort of activity the Legalist Shuffle !!Dripping with ad hom and no one can prove a thing  awesome. Did I say"ad
 hom?" What ad hom (on second thought). You are a genius, oh Wise Guru of the North Country.Ca B ---out!!-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:07:12 -0400Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveHI suspected as much but, feared reprisal from our new moderator for saying so.- Original Message -From: ShieldsFamilyTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: May 30, 2005 12:52Subject: [Bulk] RE
: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Perry vs DaveHNo. Im really that stupid. Duh.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit