JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer
to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the
works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I
will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How did
Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of miracles
-- through the works of the Law or by the hearing with
faith. My point is the same.
jt:
Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but He works through
men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my
point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because
of faith, not law. Can you understand how I might
believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting
scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the
"obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie
"By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all
them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of them
that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting
scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that clinging to
this incarnational thing is folly.
JD: They were
SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return
to the law. These folk are converted
Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet, there are
those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the
Law.
jt: How can you be sure they were
all Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that
they lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact
they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a
reputation. They taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical
system in part even without a temple; these ppl had reverted back
to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so
foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by
the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh and spirit, rather
than God's Law and Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were
Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most
part. The "flesh" in this passage is the Law.
Context Judy, context. They had the power -- and
Paul is saying, do not choose law over Spirit.
jt: No, he exhorts them to get
out of the flesh and back into walking after the Spirit, this says
nothing about the Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER
CHILDREN (24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is
a fellow child of the promise --- not Hagar and
her children.
Pay special attention to verses 28 and
29 ??? And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of
promise. But as at that time he who was born according to
the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and persecuted himn who
was born according to the Spirit, so it is now, also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and
Isaac were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural
generation, the difference between them was spiritual. Isaac
was the child of promise (faith). Ishmael was the product of
the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God. They
believed God but tried to do it in their own strength just like
Moses when he killed the Egyptian. He knew God wanted him to
lead but he didn't wait upon God's timing. The flesh is
forever running out there trying to look good and do good things
for God.
JD: Look again to 5:16,17: For
the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit and the Spirit
against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so
that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans
7:14ff). But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not
under the Law.
jt: You are making my point JD.
Romans 7 teaches that the only time we are not under the law is
when we are married to another (Christ) and we serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. "What
shall we say then, is the law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin but by the law; for I had not known lust except the law
had said "Thou shalt not covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a
good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised,
simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of
Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the
Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they
may boast in your flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels, noses,
and numbers which is the same as making a good show after the
flesh. It's happening all the time.
JD:
Nothing? !! The whole book is about the Law and foolishness
of seeking to live under its bondage -- something
spirit-filled Galatians are encouraged to reject. The whole
book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree
JD; the second to last chapter of the book of
Galatians Chapter 5 contrasts the works of the flesh
with the fruit of the Spirit. He says nothing at all about God's
Law, nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is love
joy ??against such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law)
made it a point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we
"walk after the Spirit" we will be producing the fruit of the
Spirit and this is what it will look like. It's all about us
and our heart attitude because when we walk in and after the flesh
we will be overcome rather than "overcomers"
JD:
Your gospel would tell these folks, ?Use the power of the
indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the Law.
Do not reject what God has given !! Embrace it and live it
out in the power of the Holy Ghost.? None of that is found in the
letter - yet this is your message. Snip
snip, Judy.
jt: I am not antinomian like
you JD but the gospel I believe and follow would not
tell these ppl anything of the sort;
lawless ppl are not living
by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on their own, doing
their own thing and what's more we don't "use" God, we either do
things His way or we are just out there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD. They had
been "bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so
Paul was trying to get them
back on track. They wouldn't be
working any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent and
return to their first works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled by
the Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of
binding themselves to the Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have for the
above?? Paul never ever bad mouths
God's Law. In fact he writes to the Church at Corinth that he is
"Not without the law to God but
under the law to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What
about that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this
fact: to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind (the
mind of Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were
mostly totally ignorant of God's Law when we came to
Christ. But hey, if this Law is so obsolete - then why does
God (under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts? (see Jeremiah
& Hebrews). Just walking in the flesh while trying
to be good "religious" folk is
t he same thing because there is
no faith in that either. The Levitical system is finished and gone
... but trusing in the works of the flesh puts us under the same
curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for
this Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of the
fact that
Paul contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep the law, if you
will DM -- as for me and my house, we
will
serve the Lord. The Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from
heaven come with another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually it
is impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are
talking out of both sides of your mouth. Also if you are trusting
in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off
...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued
effect of the Christ in my (our) life. To think otherwise is
heretical at best, and heretical in the lest.
jt: According to who? I don't see Paul
preaching or teaching that doctrine anywhere in Acts or the
Epistles.
Are you denying this
statement: The Incarnation is the story and purpose
and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?
jt: Yes; Paul preached the cross and
it is the cross that is the offense which will bring persecution
because the flesh does not like to be confronted with it's sad and
sorry state. jt
