Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
Gary wrote: when are you gonna *pull out*? Pull out? Pull out of what? Judaism? I've never practiced Judaism, so how can I pull out of it? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:18:58 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Jesus..was talking about the [613] commandments of Moses, which [Marlin] says are commandments that we do not have to obey as Gentile believers. for thoseintoreprovin' poor ignorantMarlin, deep into legalism, DavidM proves he is into it, too, even more deeply--DavidM reproving Marlin is like the pot callin' the kettle black their legalizing (rooted in pure Judaism)isprecisely what the Ap Paul repudiated in the Galatian churches, stillto no avail in Beverly Hills, Florida USA (when you gonna pull out, gentlemen? let's hustle it up--Izzy's gettin' dizzy:-)
[TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 08:41:17 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:[Laura:]Converts of Paul's who were defecting and Judaistic teachers who were adulterating Paul's gospel. [DavidM:] I do not agree..that the Judaizers who were adulterating Paul's gospel were kicked out of the church. What verse in Galatians says that? let's not overlook that Dr GT has at least alluded to an important point: acc to Galatians, below,there were true and 'false brethren' (they were) NOT, however,in the Galatian 'church' (singular--DavidM's word), but in the Galatian 'churches' (plural), the Ap. Paul's word for the GalatianChristian fellowship/s [ftr, 'church', as DavidM misuses it in reference to the NT, above,underlies/defines (contrary to the NT)his idea of theinclusive ecumenicity of TT 'fellowship' (which has nothin to do with the tha Ap Paul's concept) and ftr, hr is forcing this TT model on the NT to refine the thought, DavidMs idea ofTTisecumenical religious democracy--nothin wrong with that interestingly, 'conservative'/republican Izzyhas thoroughly adopted DavidM's'church' concept in toto--at least DavidM believes she has and she has confirmed Davidm in that belief, that TT is, despite the conservative political rhetoric, basically aliberal ecumenicity i'm not opposed to it, to wide 'ecumenical' discussion/s, but PLEASE do not confusethat ecumenical'dialog'model withNT/Pauline Christian 'fellowship/s'] (back to the issue) so does anyone want to dialog onthe VALID biblical point, above,or,from another angle, who on TT wants to argue (against the NT) that the Ap. Paul made'false brothers'(like Marlin, acc to Dr GT) feel welcome in the Galatian churches? keep in mind, in america weall may be welcome here.. heretics complimentedconservatives Judaizers Nazis Mormonleathersalesmen flagpoleclimbers prochoicers gayandabortiondrmurderers dylaniteswithoneheadlight... but Galatians teaches that "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like..they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." merry christmas G -- for reference: Gal 1:4,5NIV This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. Gal 1:4,5KJV ..because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:15:52 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [DavidM:]Paul never instructed the churches to cast out those Judaizers who taught such. DavidM, the Ap Paulsimply instructs the Galatians to withdraw from Judaism--from those who practice it against Christ--which is exactly what happened over the course of time, because "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law'...Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.." cp. Heb 8:13 By calling[the NT] covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:15:52 -0500 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [DavidM:] Paul never instructed the churches to cast out those Judaizers who taught such. Gary wrote: DavidM, the Ap Paul simply instructs the Galatians to withdraw from Judaism--from those who practice it against Christ--which is exactly what happened over the course of time Exactly my point. I'm glad you finally agree with me. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
i agree you agree with DavidM so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin? On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:06:15 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul simply instructs the Galatiansto *withdraw from Judaism*--from those who practiceit against Christ Agreed. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
Pull out of what? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message i agree you agree with DavidM so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin? On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:06:15 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul simply instructs the Galatiansto *withdraw from Judaism*--from those who practiceit against Christ Agreed. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
G: so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin? On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:23:43 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pull out of what? g: Paul simply instructs the Galatiansto *withdraw from Judaism*--from those who practiceit against Christ On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:06:15 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. --Marlin G: so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin??
Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message
Pull out of what? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] once saved, always saved/g's 02 christmas message G: so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin? On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:23:43 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pull out of what? g: Paul simply instructs the Galatiansto *withdraw from Judaism*--from those who practiceit against Christ On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:06:15 -0500 "Marlin Halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. --Marlin G: so when are you gonna *pull out*, Marlin??
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn wrote: There is not two ways to live, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Are there distinctions between men and women in how they live? Did Paul teach women to keep silent in the church, or did he teach both men and women to keep silent? Did Paul teach that both men and women should not teach, or was it only the women? Did Paul teach any distinction between men and women with regard to hair length and head coverings, or did he teach a distinction between how men and women should live? Did not Paul teach that the man was the head of the woman, as Christ was of the church? If you accept differences between the role of men and women in how they live, why would you not accept differences between Jews and Gentiles? Did not Paul teach that salvation was first to the Jew, then to the Gentile? Glenn wrote: David, I am concerned about your salvation. You might be bordering on mixing law with grace WHICH MEANS NO GRACE NO SALVATION. You talk as if salvation once came through the law. You talk as if God saved people through the law until Jesus came, but now that Jesus came, he started saving people another way. The truth is that there has always been only one way to the Father, and that is through Jesus Christ. Throughout all eternity this has been true. Do you think Moses mixed law and grace? Do you think that king David mixed up law and grace? So you say that you are concerned about my salvation because I said that a man may keep the law while walking in grace? Did not Paul teach in Romans 8, that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit? If observing the law automatically cancelled out grace, why did Jesus command others to keep the law? Jesus taught others to keep both the moral commandments and the ceremonial commandments which included animal sacrifice. Was Jesus frustrating the operation of grace in those he taught? Was Jesus sending people to hell by teaching them to observe the Torah? Rightly divide the Word of God. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
In a message dated 12/23/2002 9:14:21 AM Central Standard Time, GJ Tabor writes: Are there distinctions between men and women in how they live? Did Paul teach women to keep silent in the church, or did he teach both men and women to keep silent? There were some reasons for this in Bible times. People met to worship in homes and there was limited space. If the men listened to the teaching then they could instruct the women later. Also people traveled awhile to get there and the women were busy fixing meals, tending to children, and mending the evangelists garments etc. At least that is what I was taught by some Mennonite friends I visited in PA. Did Paul teach that both men and women should not teach, or was it only the women? Women were not supposed to teach men and that is still true some places. I think those who adher to this are missing a blessing because God uses women today in amazing ways. Did Paul teach any distinction between men and women with regard to hair length and head coverings, or did he teach a distinction between how men and women should live? Yes and that still holds true today among some groups and so what if they feel God wants them to observe certain standards - Standards are different from Biblical principles. Did not Paul teach that the man was the head of the woman, as Christ was of the church? YES and when my husband was living he was the head of our household and me. Two heads would make a monster. I know women who are the main source of income and who are more than capable of managing a household BUT they are under the authority of their husband. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Laura wrote: ... are Jewish believers still supposed to observe the OT law? Actually, it is impossible in that there is no Temple which is required for many of the commandments. Nevertheless, it is not sin for a Jew to observe that part of the Old Testament that he can observe. Yes, the Jew should observe the law in that it makes a continual remembrance of important historical events, such as Passover, and of that which is yet to come. Does a Jew have to observe the OT law to be saved? No. Not one bit of observance will save him in any way. Laura wrote: Are those Gentiles who are Torah observant fallen from grace if they observe the OT law? Certainly in the case of the Galatians, they would be fallen from grace, because they were basically turning to Judaism instead of Jesus Christ. They were responding to a teaching that said that they HAD TO BE CIRCUMCISED. Those that became circumcised out of obligation and duty were fallen from grace. We can't blanketly say in all cases this would be true because of the following prophesy: Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. (Zec 8:23) The Messianic movement we see around us has a Godly root. It is fulfillment of prophecy such as this one. I'm not saying that everything that happens in this movement is of God, but we cannot close our eyes to the significant impact this is having both upon Christianity and upon Judaism. Therefore, those Gentiles who trust in Christ by grace and become Torah observant in accordance to grace and not legalistic teaching, these would be doing what James seemed to have in mind when he said that the Gentiles did not have to become Torah observant. James said, Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (Acts 15:19-21) Notice his last phrase, For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Isn't the implication here that they can learn of Moses and his teachings in synagogue on the sabbath day? And isn't the implication then that some of them might want to become Torah observant? Would James object to that? I don't think James would object. What James and Paul both objected to was requiring Gentiles to come under the covenant of Moses. They apparently understood that this would abolish the distinctive nature of the Jew that God created through the covenant with Moses. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
In a message dated 12/23/2002 2:52:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Messianic movement we see around us has a Godly root. It is fulfillment of prophecy such as this one.I agree I'm not saying that everything that happens in this movement is of God, but we cannot close our eyes to the significant impact this is having both upon Christianity and upon Judaism. Therefore, those Gentiles who trust in Christ by grace and become Torah observant in accordance to grace and not legalistic teaching, these would be doing what James seemed to have in mind when he said that the Gentiles did not have to become Torah observant. Legalisism is the key here. Legalism and grace don't go hand in hand. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
DAVEH: That you think that is "entirely fair" tells me a lot about you, Izzy! :-) Why would it not be fair if I simply never read it? After all, it does nothing to fulfill my reason for being in TT. ShieldsFamily wrote: DaveH, I would continue to insist that you read the Larson book as a loving response to David Millers request. Then I would love to hear you discuss it. I think thats entirely fair!!!J Izzy ShieldsFamily wrote: David, thanks for the kind words. But if I became a list moderator Im afraid all the poor mormons would split!J Izzy DAVEH: And why would you think that, Izzy? Would you not treat us fairly? :-) -- -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
"...adulterating Paul's gospel. That is NT 101!!!" Laura Are you saying that Paul's teachings do not harmonize with the rest of scripture? If so, which other books have to be torn out and burned? --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
In a message dated 12/22/2002 7:43:17 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nevertheless, he believed it was wrong to teach Gentiles to become Torah observant. Furthermore, he believed that GENTILES who felt compelled to become circumcised and become JEWS were actually departing from the grace of Jesus Christ because instead of trusting Jesus, they were trusting their compliance with the law of Moses to justify themselves before God. It OK Then are Jewish believers still supposed to observe the OT law? Are those Gentiles who are Torah observant fallen from grace if they observe the OT law? Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Excellent question, Laura. Might it not be possible that everyone is free to do either? Who can answer this? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? In a message dated 12/22/2002 7:43:17 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nevertheless, he believed it was wrong to teach Gentiles to become Torah observant. Furthermore, he believed that GENTILES who felt compelled to become circumcised and become JEWS were actually departing from the grace of Jesus Christ because instead of trusting Jesus, they were trusting their compliance with the law of Moses to justify themselves before God. It OK Then are Jewish believers still supposed to observe the OT law? Are those Gentiles who are Torah observant fallen from grace if they observe the OT law? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
ShieldsFamily wrote: David, thanks for the kind words. But if I became a list moderator Im afraid all the poor mormons would split!J Izzy DAVEH: And why would you think that, Izzy? Would you not treat us fairly? :-) -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn, I think you are being facetious. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? I know you don't believe it, but your arguments in favor of Marlin taught me to believe in eternal security. Golly, I never knew you were so easy to persuade! And I dont even believe in that doctrine myself! Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
I might be, but your arguments in favor of Marlin's teaching (that we must observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be right with God) are arguments in favor of eternal security. Glenn, I think you are being facetious. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn, I think your conclusions are irrational. J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? I might be, but your arguments in favor of Marlin's teaching (that we must observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be right with God) are arguments in favor of eternal security. Glenn, I think you are being facetious. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
OK, I will tell you one more time and then drop it. The purpose of the book of Galatians was to refute the Judaizer's doctrines. One of their doctrines was to require Old Testament Sabbath keeping in order to be right with God. This is what Marlin is teaching. Gal. 5:4 says those who teach such things are fallen from grace. You are unwittingly taking up for a teaching that the Bible says (those who teach such things) are fallen from grace. Your implications are Marlin has not fallen from grace. Those who believe in eternal security do not believe Gal. 5:4 teaches one loses his salvation. Glenn, I think your conclusions are irrational. J Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Izzy, you are RIGHT ON TRACK. I agree with you 100%. Maybe you would consider being list moderator because I don't have time to keep up with all the posts and help keep the conversation civil. By the time I read the emails, there are so many that I can't carefully read them all, and it is too late to temper what is going on. In any case, what you said below is exactly how I feel about this matter. I could not have said it as well as you just did. Perhaps all TruthTalk members will give heed to this wisdom from Izzy. Thank you. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? Glenn, It may be difficult for you to understand that I have not defended any of Marlin's beliefs as much as I have defended his right to express and discuss his beliefs without being shouted down and vilified. Your immediate judging of Marlin as an evil wolf in sheep's clothing has made Marlin understandably defensive and elusive, and has robbed the rest of us of the opportunity to lovingly and rationally get to know him. We might have actually had the opportunity to learn something about or from each other. You have slammed the door on the possibility. While I respect you and your need to express yourself, it seems that this atmosphere conflicts the purpose of TT. But maybe I'm the only one on TT who thinks this-am I crazy? Maybe I don't know what TT is all about. Izzy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn wrote: ... I don't think your point is correct BECAUSE Marlin started out with his secrecy attitude of posting links and refusing to explain them. When I would ask him to explain his posts, he would makes statements that said words to the effect, that the posts are for those who are spiritual enough to understand them. THAT WAS BEFORE I STARTED RESPONDING TO HIM DIRECTLY. 1 Corinthians 4:21. And so you recognized the weakness there, and THEN you decided that you needed to react in such a way as to make it worse? Glenn wrote: Now concerning what Marlin is teaching. There is HUGE difference in observing the Old Testament Sabbath and requiring all others to observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be in right standing with God. Agreed. Glenn wrote: 1 Corinthians 4:21 is the reason I respond to Marlin the way I do. Marlin, is not teaching Old Testament Sabbath observance as his personal right, he is teaching EVERYONE MUST observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be in right standing with God. You might be convinced of this because of some supernatural revelation you had, but none of the rest of us have heard Marlin on this. He has expressed a belief that physical circumcision is not essential to inherit eternal life, why would Sabbath observance be any different? The problem is that your incessant attacks upon him, judging him and maligning him at every chance you get, this has all inhibited dialogue. The one good part about it all is that we are all learning how not to behave on email lists by watching what you do. Glenn wrote: Now, Marlin is free to converse with DavidM. He can repeat what he told me to DavidM. He has nothing new to say. I have tried to stay out of those conservations. You have? I never noticed! My questions get ignored while he responds to you. Glenn wrote: The purpose of the book of Galatians was to refute the Judaizer's doctrines. One of their doctrines was to require Old Testament Sabbath keeping in order to be right with God. This is what Marlin is teaching. Gal. 5:4 says those who teach such things are fallen from grace. Wrong! Gal. 5:4 does NOT say that those who teach such things are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4 says that those who are justified by the law are fallen from grace. It does NOT say that those who teach others to keep the law are fallen from grace. BIG DIFFERENCE! The Judaizers mentioned in Galatians were never kicked out of the church. Their teachings were refuted by sound doctrine. Even the Corinthians had some teaching that the resurrection was past already, and they were not excommunicated either. People are not excommunicated for teaching wrong. They are excommunicated for sin. This is something the Inquisition never understood, and this is something that Glenn Tabor does not understand. Kicking people out of church for poor and erroneous teaching is wrong. Glenn wrote: You are unwittingly taking up for a teaching that the Bible says (those who teach such things) are fallen from grace. Your implications are Marlin has not fallen from grace. Has Marlin fallen from grace? Wherein has Marlin said that he is justified through keeping the law? Where has Marlin said that he is justified with God by observing the Sabbath? These are your FALSE ACCUSATIONS against Marlin. You LIE AGAINST MARLIN. Marlin, please, settle this right now. Answer the following questions: 1. Are you justified by the law before God? 2. Does keeping the Sabbath day holy cause you to be justified before God, or are you justified by Jesus Christ? Which is it? 3. You said that you absolutely believe that the New Testament is God's Holy Scripture. Does this include Gal. 5:4? Do you believe Gal. 5:4 and agree with it? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
David, you need to remove your blind spot. It is not becoming of a man of your intelligence and perfection. YOU, EITHER DON'T HAVE A CLUE TO WHAT MARLIN IS TEACHING, OR YOU ARE PLAYING "DUMB". YOU CANNOT BE THAT STUPID. IF YOU ARE GOOD-BYE. Izzy, you are RIGHT ON TRACK. I agree with you 100%. Maybe you would consider being list moderator because I don't have time to keep up with all the posts and help keep the conversation civil. By the time I read the emails, there are so many that I can't carefully read them all, and it is too late to temper what is going on. In any case, what you said below is exactly how I feel about this matter. I could not have said it as well as you just did. Perhaps all TruthTalk members will give heed to this wisdom from Izzy. Thank you. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? Glenn, It may be difficult for you to understand that I have not defended any of Marlin's beliefs as much as I have defended his right to express and discuss his beliefs without being shouted down and vilified. Your immediate judging of Marlin as an evil wolf in sheep's clothing has made Marlin understandably defensive and elusive, and has robbed the rest of us of the opportunity to lovingly and rationally get to know him. We might have actually had the opportunity to learn something about or from each other. You have slammed the door on the possibility. While I respect you and your need to express yourself, it seems that this atmosphere conflicts the purpose of TT. But maybe I'm the only one on TT who thinks this-am I crazy? Maybe I don't know what TT is all about. Izzy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
DavidM - What you so below is so full of nonsense it would take weeks to discuss it. I am leaving TT. I don't have to time for this. Subj:Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? Date:12/21/2002 3:07:50 PM Eastern Standard Time From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from the Internet Glenn wrote: ... I don't think your point is correct BECAUSE Marlin started out with his secrecy attitude of posting links and refusing to explain them. When I would ask him to explain his posts, he would makes statements that said words to the effect, that the posts are for those who are spiritual enough to understand them. THAT WAS BEFORE I STARTED RESPONDING TO HIM DIRECTLY. 1 Corinthians 4:21. And so you recognized the weakness there, and THEN you decided that you needed to react in such a way as to make it worse? Glenn wrote: Now concerning what Marlin is teaching. There is HUGE difference in observing the Old Testament Sabbath and requiring all others to observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be in right standing with God. Agreed. Glenn wrote: 1 Corinthians 4:21 is the reason I respond to Marlin the way I do. Marlin, is not teaching Old Testament Sabbath observance as his personal right, he is teaching EVERYONE MUST observe the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be in right standing with God. You might be convinced of this because of some supernatural revelation you had, but none of the rest of us have heard Marlin on this. He has expressed a belief that physical circumcision is not essential to inherit eternal life, why would Sabbath observance be any different? The problem is that your incessant attacks upon him, judging him and maligning him at every chance you get, this has all inhibited dialogue. The one good part about it all is that we are all learning how not to behave on email lists by watching what you do. Glenn wrote: Now, Marlin is free to converse with DavidM. He can repeat what he told me to DavidM. He has nothing new to say. I have tried to stay out of those conservations. You have? I never noticed! My questions get ignored while he responds to you. Glenn wrote: The purpose of the book of Galatians was to refute the Judaizer's doctrines. One of their doctrines was to require Old Testament Sabbath keeping in order to be right with God. This is what Marlin is teaching. Gal. 5:4 says those who teach such things are fallen from grace. Wrong! Gal. 5:4 does NOT say that those who teach such things are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4 says that those who are justified by the law are fallen from grace. It does NOT say that those who teach others to keep the law are fallen from grace. BIG DIFFERENCE! The Judaizers mentioned in Galatians were never kicked out of the church. Their teachings were refuted by sound doctrine. Even the Corinthians had some teaching that the resurrection was past already, and they were not excommunicated either. People are not excommunicated for teaching wrong. They are excommunicated for sin. This is something the Inquisition never understood, and this is something that Glenn Tabor does not understand. Kicking people out of church for poor and erroneous teaching is wrong. Glenn wrote: You are unwittingly taking up for a teaching that the Bible says (those who teach such things) are fallen from grace. Your implications are Marlin has not fallen from grace. Has Marlin fallen from grace? Wherein has Marlin said that he is justified through keeping the law? Where has Marlin said that he is justified with God by observing the Sabbath? These are your FALSE ACCUSATIONS against Marlin. You LIE AGAINST MARLIN. Marlin, please, settle this right now. Answer the following questions: 1. Are you justified by the law before God? 2. Does keeping the Sabbath day holy cause you to be justified before God, or are you justified by Jesus Christ? Which is it? 3. You said that you absolutely believe that the New Testament is God's Holy Scripture. Does this include Gal. 5:4? Do you believe Gal. 5:4 and agree with it? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
-Original Message- I also have given Marlin a tough time but my point is that he seems to think that I am not right with God if I don't adhere to his beliefs. I have no problem with him believing whatever but it is when he trys to say that I have to believe the same thing that I get upset. I plan to continue to worship on Sunday and also to enjoy my Christmas tree. I do think you should reread Glenn's post as it is a great explanation of why we no longer have to observe those laws. Laura I find it interesting that you think that Marlin has said anything about you at all. He has not, as far as I can tell. He has only expressed his own personal beliefs. It really isnt about you, or about Glenn. It is about Marlin. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
David, thanks for the kind words. But if I became a list moderator Im afraid all the poor mormons would split! J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 1:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? Izzy, you are RIGHT ON TRACK. I agree with you 100%. Maybe you would consider being list moderator because I don't have time to keep up with all the posts and help keep the conversation civil. By the time I read the emails, there are so many that I can't carefully read them all, and it is too late to temper what is going on. In any case, what you said below is exactly how I feel about this matter. I could not have said it as well as you just did. Perhaps all TruthTalk members will give heed to this wisdom from Izzy. Thank you. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? Glenn, It may be difficult for you to understand that I have not defended any of Marlin's beliefs as much as I have defended his right to express and discuss his beliefs without being shouted down and vilified. Your immediate judging of Marlin as an evil wolf in sheep's clothing has made Marlin understandably defensive and elusive, and has robbed the rest of us of the opportunity to lovingly and rationally get to know him. We might have actually had the opportunity to learn something about or from each other. You have slammed the door on the possibility. While I respect you and your need to express yourself, it seems that this atmosphere conflicts the purpose of TT. But maybe I'm the only one on TT who thinks this-am I crazy? Maybe I don't know what TT is all about. Izzy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn wrote: What you so below is so full of nonsense it would take weeks to discuss it. I am leaving TT. Aw, come on, Glenn. You can dish it out but you can't take it, eh? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Glenn, I was wondering what your position is on the once saved, always saved issue. I dont swallow it. I dont think you do either, but I wanted to verify that. Izzy PS It is hard for me to believe the Holy Spirit told you anything about Marlin because your attitude towards him seems so unlike the Holy Spirit. Thats what blinds me! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hitler and Marlin AGREED. If Marlin will tell us (I have asked this several times before.) that we can be in right standing with God and not observe the Old Testament Sabbath, I will retract my statement of him being a Judaizer. I will accept him as a weak brother. But a Judaizer is not a brother in Christ because they are fallen from grace. NOW IF ETERNAL SECURITY IS CORRECT, THEN A JUDAIZER CAN BE A WEAK BROTHER IN CHRIST. Eternal security teaches one can fall from grace and at the same time still be saved and on his way to heaven. PS. Why can't you see that Marlin teaches that you must follow the Old Testament Sabbath in order to be in right standing with God? I am taking a Biblical position of loving him enough to tell him the truth. He is fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4. His soul could be on your hands for letting him think he is right with God. If he can still be a weaker Christian and fall from grace at the same time, then eternal security is a Biblical doctrine. Why can't you believe me when I said the Holy Spirit revealed to me who Marlin is? What is it in your past or present life that blinds you so? Glenn wrote: The Bible says to mark them which cause divisions among you. You are the one causing divisions here. If Marlin is in sin, and if he carries leaven which will infect the body of Christ, then your division is good. What agreement has light with darkness? However, if Marlin is a brother in Christ with weaker faith, perhaps not as much liberty as you, then you are at fault. You will be the one who will be marked as causing division.
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
-Original Message- Glenn, I was wondering what your position is on the once saved, always saved issue. I dont swallow it. I dont think you do either, but I wanted to verify that. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved?
Golly, I never knew you were so easy to persuade! And I dont even believe in that doctrine myself! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 6:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Once saved, always saved? You convinced me that eternal security is the correct Biblical position. You convinced by your defending of Marlin. Glenn, I was wondering what your position is on the once saved, always saved issue. I dont swallow it. I dont think you do either, but I wanted to verify that. Izzy
