RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Hi, Referring to the U2UG Charter: Bullet #7 -- To provide a forum for the promotion of excellence in information processing through recognition of individuals who exemplify the best in our profession in their work utilizing the U2 product line. My thoughts: It would seem to me that the promotion of excellence will not happen, when the provided 'excellence' is in the form of replies to specific users (Reply-To), and remains hidden from the rest of the group (Reply-To-All). --- also --- Bullet #8 -- To promote the exchange of technical information among U2 users. In my opinion, the exchange of technical information is being exchanged via roadblocks and hidden alleys. --- In conclusion --- I've gotten a lot of great ideas from this list, and am saddened at the fact that I (along with many other newbies) won't see a lot of those, due to people with busy schedules forgetting to click the right button. CHANGE IT BACK, PLEASE!!! --- Questions for the moderators/board --- 1) Did our 'founding fathers' really want it run the way it is currently being run? 2) Shouldn't the current format require the board to do a U2UG Charter rewrite? Thanks for allowing the thoughts of someone who actually learns from the posts on this list! - Dave --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
Dave, As a founding father(?) I have to point out that the U2-Users list, U2-Community list, SBSolutions list, and RBSolutions lists aren't exactly part of the U2UG. Here's the real facts, just so all are clear: Mike O'Rear ran the list for eight years, on his dime and with his time. When he got tired, the list passed to Clif Oliver. Clif ran it for nine years. Clif offered the lists (Users Community) to the U2UG to oversee. We don't *own* them, we mind the store on behalf of everyone. For the U2UG to run the lists, we needed help. Fortunately, Larry Hiscock stepped up. SBSolutions started with Kevin King. He, like Clif, entrusted us to mind the store. RBSolutions started with Scott Rau. When Scott's work situation changed, he asked us to mind the store. Larry hosts both of these lists as well. The U2UG doesn't own any of these lists. We are the chosen caretakers. Having said all that, there is a move within the board to form a 'what next' committee. It is possible that what's next will be identical to 'what's now' but it may well go in other directions. Just remember that Larry and I moderate the lists as a volunteer activity. *Separately* from that I also happen to be on the U2UG board - also volunteer. We will do the best we can with the time and tools available. The lists are free (as in liberty) and free (as in beer). Hosting and managing them is free (as in free of payment). So long as it is appreciated, I don't mind putting in the time and I *want* your feedback. this topic started because *I* asked. So, let's keep a good face on it and see if we can't guide the list through another few decades of productive use. - Chuck History Books Barouch Dave Tabor wrote: Hi, Referring to the U2UG Charter: Bullet #7 -- To provide a forum for the promotion of excellence in information processing through recognition of individuals who exemplify the best in our profession in their work utilizing the U2 product line. My thoughts: It would seem to me that the promotion of excellence will not happen, when the provided 'excellence' is in the form of replies to specific users (Reply-To), and remains hidden from the rest of the group (Reply-To-All). --- also --- Bullet #8 -- To promote the exchange of technical information among U2 users. In my opinion, the exchange of technical information is being exchanged via roadblocks and hidden alleys. --- In conclusion --- I've gotten a lot of great ideas from this list, and am saddened at the fact that I (along with many other newbies) won't see a lot of those, due to people with busy schedules forgetting to click the right button. CHANGE IT BACK, PLEASE!!! --- Questions for the moderators/board --- 1) Did our 'founding fathers' really want it run the way it is currently being run? 2) Shouldn't the current format require the board to do a U2UG Charter rewrite? Thanks for allowing the thoughts of someone who actually learns from the posts on this list! - Dave --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ -- - Charles Barouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (718) 762-3884 x 1 P. O. Box 540957, Linden Hill, NY 11354-0957 www.KeyAlly.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
So long as it is appreciated, I don't mind putting in the time and I *want* your feedback. this topic started because *I* asked. So, let's keep a good face on it and see if we can't guide the list through another few decades of productive use. - Chuck History Books Barouch --- Hi, I'm pretty much a lurker here and still very, very new to U2. I do value the expertise available to me here on these lists, and the time and energy it takes to maintain them. So long as I know how to reply to the list, and how to filter the incoming messages so they go into right folders on my end, I don't care how the lists are set up. Having said that, I guess I do prefer the email list setup as opposed to a Google-type thingy. I don't know /jack squat/ about running a mailing list or a newsgroup, so thank you to you folks who do this work. Bob Little UniVerse Developer Market America, Inc. (336) 478-1694 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Argh! I just tried to agree with Bob/Wendy and forgot to reply-all. Sorry to whoever got my email. I really preferred the list when response went to the list. Much as I know that correct behaviour is the current one, yes I've noticed traffic has dropped noticeably. And the current behaviour is very inconvenient to me because my main method of replying to list is webmail (my work email client can't post, posting at home annoys my wife :-(, and webmail DOESN'T HAVE a reply-to-all :-( So to save me having to type or cut-n-paste the list address for EVERY post I try to make, I'm inclined to vote to go back to the old setup ... - I came very close to forgetting to change the address for this post ... Cheers, Wol --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I am used to the changes. I dont see a problem with it. However, the traffic has seemed to drop. We could be missing out on some interesting discussion. The problem is that some people have a hard time adapting to change. I think the reply / reply to all is a nice choice to have. Sometimes you might want the choice to reply only to an individual. Personally, I probably would not have changed anything unless the problem experienced at first was a recurring. I dont go looking for bugs in my system if a user brings me a one time odd ball error. I probably would have tried to write a 'filter' that might eliminate messages with certain info in the subject or body. The problem that occurred could have been eliminated by adding that subject to your filter and those messages could have been sent to the bit bucket. If users on my system find a way to get bad data into the files, you fix the problem by tightening up the edits for the field entry. I see this stiuation as being very similar. Anthony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of u2ug Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [U2] Changes to the List All, We've now been living with the change to the lists for nearly a month. I'd like to invite opinions on the change. Are we all happy now that we are used to it? Personally, I think Larry made a good call, but this is a community, so I want me be sure that everyone gets heard. I've still got Jerry and Tom's original issues bookmarked, and I'm especially interested to see if their issues are still problematic. - Charles Barouch, Moderator U2-Users U2-Community RBSolutions SBSolutions Visit http://listserver.u2ug.org, enter your e-mail address, and 'browse all' lists to maintain your access. For non-U2UG e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.3/281 - Release Date: 3/14/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.3/281 - Release Date: 3/14/2006 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I don't post much, and as a result maybe my opinion doesn't count. But this reply all is a pain. For instance this one. I clicked the reply all on the last email of this topic. So I remove Anthony Dzikiewicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the TO:. I'm sure he doesn't want my post twice. Then I have [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org, 'u2ug' [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the CC:. Gee, which is the one I really want to send this too? Normally I say, aw the heck with it, someone else will answer with correctly and I discard my email and go back to work. That's my problem with reply all. I'm not going to winnow out the CC: today, I don't belong to all those lists but what the heck. I suppose that's someone else's problem. Then I have my problem when I read an email from a thread that appears to have a couple of chapters missing. The conversation appears to have gone on for a little between two respondents. And, it seems, that one remembers to send back to the list. Back to lurking Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I do not like the 'reply-all' feature either. As developers, I would hope that we would not add a feature to our user interfaces that annoyed all of the users every time they used it, so I don't see why we should tolerate doing it to ourselves. Presumably the list moderator is trying to solve some perceived problem, but I've been on several other high traffic lists and none of them have done this. As far as moving it to a Google list... why would you do this? What problem are you trying to solve? My experience with the free list servers is that it is easy to get unsubscribed without notification if a few list messages bounce to your address. Barry Brevik --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
In my opinion, the *reply* behavior of the mailing list needs to reflect the announcement vs. discussion mentality of the group. The announcement mentality puts the emphasis on announcing ideas and issues, and promotes discussion between the poster and individuals wanting to know more details. In this case, the reply button behavior should default to only reply to poster. The discussion mentality puts the emphasis on sharing the discussion out in the open, promoting community participation. Unfortunately, this also has the effect of lowering the signal-to-noise ratio, creating a lot of me too replies. Here, the reply button behavior should default to reply all (i.e. the old way). I don't think the drop in traffic is necessarily a bad thing; it will probably pick up once everyone gets accustomed to the rules. Personally, I opt for the discussion mentality where open discussions are the emphasis. rex --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I did not post too many messages either, as I am new to UniVerse. I am still learning. But I am thinking that we(ourselves) could have a choice on how to reply the email to the list. Currently, if I want to reply to the person posted the email only, I just hit the Reply on my outlook. If I need to reply to the list, hit Reply All. As for Yahoo user list, I had experience on webLogic Yahoo user group. It works fine to me. It was a little bit slow during the peak hour though. Kathy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Brevik Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I do not like the 'reply-all' feature either. As developers, I would hope that we would not add a feature to our user interfaces that annoyed all of the users every time they used it, so I don't see why we should tolerate doing it to ourselves. Presumably the list moderator is trying to solve some perceived problem, but I've been on several other high traffic lists and none of them have done this. As far as moving it to a Google list... why would you do this? What problem are you trying to solve? My experience with the free list servers is that it is easy to get unsubscribed without notification if a few list messages bounce to your address. Barry Brevik --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
When I hit reply all, I have to: 1. remove the person's name from the To: box 2. move the Cc: name (u2-users...) to the To: box That is a waste of my time, and tedious. If we programmed a user interface like that we would be laughed at. I'll vote for the old way: reply being a reponse to the list, not the individual. Louie Bergsagel Seattle --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Well, I had forgotten about it, and started to reply yesterday, noticed the 'to' was wrong and fixed it. Didn't bother me a'tall ! You do have excellent suggestions though. Not everyone is as careful with the 'to' as I am. Once you've sent a message to the wrong 'to' you never forget to do that again :-} (sheepish grin) Fortunately no one got fired...heh...did have a hell of a pissed off VP of Ops for a while though. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 21:59 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List Bruce Nichol wrote: How many now know to Reply All if they want a moment of fame on the list? And this is another point. An announcement was made to the list, there was a hullabaloo for a few days and then it blew over. How many people missed that thread and don't know the secret handshake to send mail to this forum? How many people have tried to post a reponse, had a bounce or other interaction with some other forum member and just decided to not post? I can find no mention of How to Reply to Forum Mail with new instructions on the U2UG site. A new subscriber attempting a reply may conclude the list simply doesn't work. Is it expected that everyone will e-mail their confusion to the moderators? Welcome to real business: dis-satisfied or confused clients are more likely to walk away than complain or petition for change. Sure, I had issues up front, but I quickly adapt to change, so I really don't care what the policy is, and that's typical of anyone we see posting here. It's the people who aren't posting that you should be concerned about. When there is a policy that requires special action to do a common function, instructions should be easily available and quite clear. Suggestions: 1) Append this text to the footer applied to forum posts after the URL: See that page for information about posting and unsubscribing I'd say just bring the footer down to one line but I'm sure there are people using the footer for filtering, so it's probably not a good idea to change it. 2) Put documentation about how to reply on the http://listserver.u2ug.org/ page. 3) Put a clear link to that documentation on the Email Lists page accessible from the u2ug.org home page. Way over my 2 cents, sorry. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
I concur. - Original Message - From: Tony Gravagno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:59 PM Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List Bruce Nichol wrote: How many now know to Reply All if they want a moment of fame on the list? And this is another point. An announcement was made to the list, there was a hullabaloo for a few days and then it blew over. How many people missed that thread and don't know the secret handshake to send mail to this forum? How many people have tried to post a reponse, had a bounce or other interaction with some other forum member and just decided to not post? I can find no mention of How to Reply to Forum Mail with new instructions on the U2UG site. A new subscriber attempting a reply may conclude the list simply doesn't work. Is it expected that everyone will e-mail their confusion to the moderators? Welcome to real business: dis-satisfied or confused clients are more likely to walk away than complain or petition for change. Sure, I had issues up front, but I quickly adapt to change, so I really don't care what the policy is, and that's typical of anyone we see posting here. It's the people who aren't posting that you should be concerned about. When there is a policy that requires special action to do a common function, instructions should be easily available and quite clear. Suggestions: 1) Append this text to the footer applied to forum posts after the URL: See that page for information about posting and unsubscribing I'd say just bring the footer down to one line but I'm sure there are people using the footer for filtering, so it's probably not a good idea to change it. 2) Put documentation about how to reply on the http://listserver.u2ug.org/ page. 3) Put a clear link to that documentation on the Email Lists page accessible from the u2ug.org home page. Way over my 2 cents, sorry. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
Don't go there. I think this was discussed many times and the consensus was no. I personally hate, is hate too strong a word, having to go to a group site to find out what is going on. Most of the people on this list work for a living and don't have the time to search out answering questions for free but if it comes into their mailbox and they've got the time they may give a hand. - Original Message - From: Mike Preece [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 3:50 AM Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I've been holding back from putting this question, in the hope that the initiative might come from within U2UG, but it seems high time... What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? We'd lose nothing btw - in that we could all send and receive emails to/from the list - or post and read messages online without any emails, and we'd have access to recent posts and, in time, archives, in the same way as for a news group. How many of you have not used a google group or a usenet group with a google interface? Of those that are familiar with google groups - is there anything this list provides that they don't? Maybe someone at U2UG could put a survey up on the U2UG web-site to get some numbers for responses to these and similar questions. Mike. From: Tony Gravagno [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:30:40 -0800 We've now been living with the change to the lists for nearly a month. I'd like to invite opinions on the change. Are we all happy now that we are used to it? Personally, I think Larry made a good call, but this is a community, so I want me be sure that everyone gets heard. [snip] Thanks for asking, Chuck. If numbers are any indication, I've done some rough counts on my mail archive: - In the time period from feb/27 when this change was announced until today, mar/15, there were approximately 181 posts to this forum. I'm including posts prior to the announcement on that day as well generously including vacation posts, dupes, and other mis-haps which occurred. - In the same time period from the 27th of one month to the 15th of a consecutive month, going back for the last 6 months, this forum serves anywhere between 280ish to over 600 posts, with a guessed average of roughly about 390. (vague enough?) Given those numbers, it seems traffic here has dropped by almost half since the change. Whether that's good or bad is up to the individual, but anything that (seemingly) cuts community traffic by this magnitude deserves some evaluation. HTH T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ _ Shopping made easy @ tradingpost.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etradingpost%2Ecom%2Eau%2F%3Freferrer%3DnmsnHMetagv1_t=753082530_r=emailtagline_m=EXT --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
Interestingly, that gmane site had a posting rate chart (see link below) which confirms that usage has dropped off. However, you can see that it did the same last year as well so can't necessarily be attributed to the list change being discussed. I don't care either way. I don't post too often but think I can manage fine! Regards, Rob Wills (rob dot wills at tigerinfotech dot com) Wendy wrote on 16/03/2006 16:05:55: If you prefer a newsgroup, it looks like the list is already on Gmane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.db.u2.general HTH, -- Wendy --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Perceived problem? How about I add you to the moderator list, and you can perceive the 1,500 bounce/vacation autoresponse/error emails that end up in YOUR inbox in less than an hour because someone's brain-dead mail server doesn't know how to properly parse email headers? :-D Larry Hiscock Moderator -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Brevik Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I do not like the 'reply-all' feature either. As developers, I would hope that we would not add a feature to our user interfaces that annoyed all of the users every time they used it, so I don't see why we should tolerate doing it to ourselves. Presumably the list moderator is trying to solve some perceived problem, but I've been on several other high traffic lists and none of them have done this. As far as moving it to a Google list... why would you do this? What problem are you trying to solve? My experience with the free list servers is that it is easy to get unsubscribed without notification if a few list messages bounce to your address. Barry Brevik --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
I guess I don't understand why this is so hard to fix. If you can't set up filters in your listserver, 1) set up a free gmail account, 2) set up a filter to send all the bounce/vacation autoresponse/error emails to the trash, and 3) forward the remaining emails to the user group. Louie Bergsagel Seattle On 3/16/06, Larry Hiscock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perceived problem? How about I add you to the moderator list, and you can perceive the 1,500 bounce/vacation autoresponse/error emails that end up in YOUR inbox in less than an hour because someone's brain-dead mail server doesn't know how to properly parse email headers? :-D Larry Hiscock Moderator -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Brevik Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I do not like the 'reply-all' feature either. As developers, I would hope that we would not add a feature to our user interfaces that annoyed all of the users every time they used it, so I don't see why we should tolerate doing it to ourselves. Presumably the list moderator is trying to solve some perceived problem, but I've been on several other high traffic lists and none of them have done this. As far as moving it to a Google list... why would you do this? What problem are you trying to solve? My experience with the free list servers is that it is easy to get unsubscribed without notification if a few list messages bounce to your address. Barry Brevik --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
At 20:50 +1100 2006/03/16, Mike Preece wrote: What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? I would not be adverse to it. Google Groups has multiple digesting options, both web and e-mail interface, hides the quoted text from folks that refuse to trim the original email and (most importantly IMHO) can be viewed in a threaded fashion. We've been using a private one internally for work and will set-up ones for our customers shortly. Ray -- .=. | =-=-=-=-=-=-= Eagle Rock Information Systems Corp =-=-=-=-=-=-= | | -=-=-=-=-=-=- web and database business solutions -=-=-=-=-=-=- | | http://www.eriscorp.commailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | |Midwest Regional Office: 815-547-0662 (voice) 815-547-0353 (Fax)| .=. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Jerry Banker wrote: Don't go there. I personally hate, is hate too strong a word, having to go to a group site to find out what is going on. From: Mike Preece What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? Jerry and others, Google Groups sends e-mail as well as providing a web interface - this is something that's widely misunderstood. I'm subscribed to a few mail lists via Google and have only had a couple minor issues. Google Groups puts their mail lists side by side with Usenet (a completely different protocol for which usenet readers are available), which can be confusing but helpful too. So for example, many people get comp.databases.pick (usenet) and the jBASE and QM forums, all in their e-mail, and they think it's all just an e-mail medium - others only read these forums via browser because their employers ban forums at work or for other reasons. I didn't support Mike's initiative to create a U2 Google Group because at the time I didn't see a perceived need. The big problem as I see it now is that there are so many people that would need to make a change, so now, only for this reason, I still don't fully support the proposal. At this point however, I think the idea should at least be reconsidered. The current subscriber list can be imported into the Google Group, everyone would be auto-subscribed, and then people would just need to bookmark the new list address for new posts. It wouldn't be such a big deal really and there would be benefits. Up to 8 cents now on this topic, oops. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
All, The reason I started this thread is because everyone's opinion matters. However, this thread is taking over the lists. So, I am going to ask you all, to forward your thoughts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. Larry and I will go through it all and see what can/should be done. We'll discuss it with the U2UG board, and ultimately will all of you. I don't want to stop the conversation, but I do want to take it off list. -- Charles Barouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ETL/Migration/Integration (718) 762-3884x1 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
At 18:43 + 2006/03/16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interestingly, that gmane site had a posting rate chart (see link below) which confirms that usage has dropped off. However, you can see that it did the same last year as well so can't necessarily be attributed to the list change being discussed My guess it's mostly due to: Spectrum DUG (are there any OSS, Epicore, ADP, etc. UG's about this time?) Tax Time End of 1st Quarter approaching I didn't really think it was due to the change. Ray -- .=. | =-=-=-=-=-=-= Eagle Rock Information Systems Corp =-=-=-=-=-=-= | | -=-=-=-=-=-=- web and database business solutions -=-=-=-=-=-=- | | http://www.eriscorp.commailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | |Midwest Regional Office: 815-547-0662 (voice) 815-547-0353 (Fax)| .=. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
If the U2UG decides to move the lists to Google Groups, my feelings won't be hurt a bit. But until then, let's let the group consider it and make an informed decision, not just run off and start splinter groups all over the net. Larry Hiscock Moderator -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raymond DeGennaro II Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:25 AM To: Jerry Banker Cc: Mike Preece; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Changes to the List At 12:35 -0600 2006/03/16, Jerry Banker wrote: I personally hate, is hate too strong a word, having to go to a group site to find out what is going on. You don't have to do that with Google groups. You can set your subscription to No Email, Every post as a separate Email, a traditional Digest Mode and an Abridged mode which sends a daily summary of each thread (number of new posts, a breif clip from the thread (I think it's the most recent post). So, you wouldn't have to use the web interface for daily replies if you didn't want to. Ray -- .=. | =-=-=-=-=-=-= Eagle Rock Information Systems Corp =-=-=-=-=-=-= | | -=-=-=-=-=-=- web and database business solutions -=-=-=-=-=-=- | | http://www.eriscorp.commailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | |Midwest Regional Office: 815-547-0662 (voice) 815-547-0353 (Fax)| .=. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I would like to make a suggestion. The u2 users list has been in existence for a LONG time. Currently, the list is managed by the U2 User Group. (Up until yesterday, I was a member of the u2ug board, but my term expired). I would suggest that the u2ug board appoint a small team of people to investigate the options for communication to the u2 communities and come back with recommendations to the board. The investigation should look at all available options, listing the pros and cons of each. And it should include polling of the user community. This clearly a topic of interest to a lot of people. I imagine there are even a few people out there who wouldn't mind serving on this suggested team. Dana Baron System Manager Smugglers' Notch Resort --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I wasn't going to vote, because I don't care which way it is (i.e., reply to poster vs. reply-all). On the other hand, I _emphatically_ don't care, so I'll vote after all: I don't care. Which is to say that I'll support, with gratitude, those who maintain the list whichever way they end up doing it. Thank-you Chuck Larry both, Chuck Stevenson --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
It seems like this has been the only thing on the list recently, maybe all the other emails are being sent by replyTIC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Barouch Sent: Friday, 17 March 2006 9:01 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] Changes to the List All, The reason I started this thread is because everyone's opinion matters. However, this thread is taking over the lists. So, I am going to ask you all, to forward your thoughts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. Larry and I will go through it all and see what can/should be done. We'll discuss it with the U2UG board, and ultimately will all of you. I don't want to stop the conversation, but I do want to take it off list. -- Charles Barouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ETL/Migration/Integration (718) 762-3884x1 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
Mike Preece [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? Jerry Banker [EMAIL PROTECTED] replied: Don't go there. I think this was discussed many times and the consensus was no. I personally hate, is hate too strong a word, having to go to a group site to find out what is going on. Most of the people on this list work for a living and don't have the time to search out answering questions for free but if it comes into their mailbox and they've got the time they may give a hand. For those familiar with comp.databases.pick, I have one word: [EMAIL PROTECTED] grumble My biggest problem with the Useet-style newsgroups is that they are unmoderated. There is no one to control the content or administer cyber spankings when appropriate, nor can offensive content be removed. As Jerry pointed out, it is easier to have messages pushed to the mailbox than to have to pull them from a website. I'm subscribed for digest reading, and I really appreciate being able to receive the digests for several reasons, primarily: 1) As sole computer support person for my company, my e-mail client is set to provide an audible and visual alert every time a new message arrives. When an active discussion starts on the list, I can't afford the steady stream of interruptions. 2) With newsgroups, I often have to wade through old messages to find the newer ones, especially for a topic that goes on for several days. With the current digests, I only receive the newest posts, and can quickly browse the topic list to find the messages of interest. Considering that Larry has been kind enough to host the lists for the group gratis, like Clif before him, I would suggest that his opinions should carry great weight. Just my plug nickle... --Tom Pellitieri Toledo, Ohio --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
At 15:22 -0500 2006/03/16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest problem with the Useet-style newsgroups is that they are unmoderated. There is no one to control the content or administer cyber spankings when appropriate, nor can offensive content be removed. Not a problem with a Google group. I would not want to go through the whole process of trying to get a new comp.databases.pick.u2/comp.databases.u2 created or even get the hierarchy reorganized to: comp.databases.multivalue.general, comp.databases.multivalue.d3, comp.databases.multivalue.u2, etc.. Been there, done that. Usenet groups could be moderated with a minimal amount of effort, but again, I wouldn't want to be a moderator. Google Groups are slightly different. The group creator can control the membership, delete posts, etc. As Jerry pointed out, it is easier to have messages pushed to the mailbox than to have to pull them from a website. Not a problem with a Google Group. I'm subscribed for digest reading, and I really appreciate being able to receive the digests for several reasons, primarily: Google Groups have two different digest modes. So you won't lose this feature of typical mailing lists. Ray -- .=. | =-=-=-=-=-=-= Eagle Rock Information Systems Corp =-=-=-=-=-=-= | | -=-=-=-=-=-=- web and database business solutions -=-=-=-=-=-=- | | http://www.eriscorp.commailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | |Midwest Regional Office: 815-547-0662 (voice) 815-547-0353 (Fax)| .=. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
These are not groups they are echoes of what is being sent to this list. - Original Message - From: Wendy Smoak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Changes to the List On 3/16/06, Mike Preece [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? If you prefer a newsgroup, it looks like the list is already on Gmane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.db.u2.general There's also Nabble, with a slightly different interface: http://www.nabble.com/U2---Users-f801.html HTH, -- Wendy --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List - NO GOOGLE or etal...
I too hate going to a site, the list is far preferable. Vote with Jerry !! Will someone summarize what this bru ha ha is all about. grs -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-u2- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 3:20 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List - NO GOOGLE or etal... I vote with Jerry. -Original Message- From: Jerry Banker [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:35 AM To: Mike Preece; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject:Re: [U2] Changes to the List Don't go there. I think this was discussed many times and the consensus was no. I personally hate, is hate too strong a word, having to go to a group site to find out what is going on. Most of the people on this list work for a living and don't have the time to search out answering questions for free but if it comes into their mailbox and they've got the time they may give a hand. - Original Message - From: Mike Preece [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 3:50 AM Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I've been holding back from putting this question, in the hope that the initiative might come from within U2UG, but it seems high time... What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? We'd lose nothing btw - in that we could all send and receive emails to/from the list - or post and read messages online without any emails, and we'd have access to recent posts and, in time, archives, in the same way as for a news group. How many of you have not used a google group or a usenet group with a google interface? Of those that are familiar with google groups - is there anything this list provides that they don't? Maybe someone at U2UG could put a survey up on the U2UG web-site to get some numbers for responses to these and similar questions. To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Seconded. Apologies for posting to the list instead of the moderators but let's all consider the amount of work a small number of people put in to make this happen, and whether we personally would be willing to step up and do it instead of telling them how we'd like them to do it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stevenson, Charles Sent: 16 March 2006 19:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List I wasn't going to vote, because I don't care which way it is (i.e., reply to poster vs. reply-all). On the other hand, I _emphatically_ don't care, so I'll vote after all: I don't care. Which is to say that I'll support, with gratitude, those who maintain the list whichever way they end up doing it. Thank-you Chuck Larry both, Chuck Stevenson --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
What? Haven't you been getting my emails? John Cassidy Unix Sys Admin DCCCD u2ug [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/15/06 7:29 PM All, We've now been living with the change to the lists for nearly a month. I'd like to invite opinions on the change. Are we all happy now that we are used to it? Personally, I think Larry made a good call, but this is a community, so I want me be sure that everyone gets heard. I've still got Jerry and Tom's original issues bookmarked, and I'm especially interested to see if their issues are still problematic. - Charles Barouch, Moderator U2-Users U2-Community RBSolutions SBSolutions Visit http://listserver.u2ug.org, enter your e-mail address, and 'browse all' lists to maintain your access. For non-U2UG e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to the List
On 3/16/06, Mike Preece [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been holding back from putting this question, in the hope that the initiative might come from within U2UG, but it seems high time... Many, including both Clif and me, were vocal about this change immediately. I have seen changes like this turn a list that has good discussions to a list of questions with few answers posted back. It is very frustrating to do a search, find your exact question, and see none of the fine responses that the original poster received personally. What do people think of the idea of moving this list to a google group instead? I would be all for it. I think it would help with both the conversation and the archiving / searching into the future, although we would want to retain the current archives for past conversations. We'd lose nothing btw - in that we could all send and receive emails to/from the list - or post and read messages online without any emails, and we'd have access to recent posts and, in time, archives, in the same way as for a news group. How many of you have not used a google group or a usenet group with a google interface? I find google groups very easy to use. Of those that are familiar with google groups - is there anything this list provides that they don't? Maybe someone at U2UG could put a survey up on the U2UG web-site to get some numbers for responses to these and similar questions. Such a move would get my vote. Cheers! --dawn -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. Take and give some delight today! --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Personally I appreciate what ever format works best for those individual that expend the time to make this thing work. If I have to do two things instead of one to post to the list or if I have to shake the cobwebs out of my aged old brain to make it work then even I will learn how to do it right. Just make it reasonable for the moderators and the techs that make this thing work. As a vote, I like it just fine the way it is. Tom Dodds [EMAIL PROTECTED] 708-234-9608 Office 630-235-2975 Cell --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
We've now been living with the change to the lists for nearly a month. I'd like to invite opinions on the change. Are we all happy now that we are used to it? Personally, I think Larry made a good call, but this is a community, so I want me be sure that everyone gets heard. [snip] Thanks for asking, Chuck. If numbers are any indication, I've done some rough counts on my mail archive: - In the time period from feb/27 when this change was announced until today, mar/15, there were approximately 181 posts to this forum. I'm including posts prior to the announcement on that day as well generously including vacation posts, dupes, and other mis-haps which occurred. - In the same time period from the 27th of one month to the 15th of a consecutive month, going back for the last 6 months, this forum serves anywhere between 280ish to over 600 posts, with a guessed average of roughly about 390. (vague enough?) Given those numbers, it seems traffic here has dropped by almost half since the change. Whether that's good or bad is up to the individual, but anything that (seemingly) cuts community traffic by this magnitude deserves some evaluation. HTH T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
I have noticed that their seems to be less traffic as well. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Thursday, 16 March 2006 5:01 p.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to the List We've now been living with the change to the lists for nearly a month. I'd like to invite opinions on the change. Are we all happy now that we are used to it? Personally, I think Larry made a good call, but this is a community, so I want me be sure that everyone gets heard. [snip] Thanks for asking, Chuck. If numbers are any indication, I've done some rough counts on my mail archive: - In the time period from feb/27 when this change was announced until today, mar/15, there were approximately 181 posts to this forum. I'm including posts prior to the announcement on that day as well generously including vacation posts, dupes, and other mis-haps which occurred. - In the same time period from the 27th of one month to the 15th of a consecutive month, going back for the last 6 months, this forum serves anywhere between 280ish to over 600 posts, with a guessed average of roughly about 390. (vague enough?) Given those numbers, it seems traffic here has dropped by almost half since the change. Whether that's good or bad is up to the individual, but anything that (seemingly) cuts community traffic by this magnitude deserves some evaluation. HTH T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Goo'day, At 19:30 15/03/06 -0800, Tony Gravagno wrote: Given those numbers, it seems traffic here has dropped by almost half since the change. Whether that's good or bad is up to the individual, but anything that (seemingly) cuts community traffic by this magnitude deserves some evaluation. Would this dramatic reduction have something to do with Reply now only going to the poster - by default - instead of to the list? How many now know to Reply All if they want a moment of fame on the list? HTH T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.384 / Virus Database: 268.2.4/282 - Release Date: 15/03/06 Regards, Bruce Nichol Talon Computer Services ALBURYNSW 2640 Australia http://www.taloncs.com.au Tel: +61 (0)411149636 Fax: +61 (0)260232119 If it ain't broke, fix it till it is! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.384 / Virus Database: 268.2.4/282 - Release Date: 15/03/06 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to the List
Bruce Nichol wrote: How many now know to Reply All if they want a moment of fame on the list? And this is another point. An announcement was made to the list, there was a hullabaloo for a few days and then it blew over. How many people missed that thread and don't know the secret handshake to send mail to this forum? How many people have tried to post a reponse, had a bounce or other interaction with some other forum member and just decided to not post? I can find no mention of How to Reply to Forum Mail with new instructions on the U2UG site. A new subscriber attempting a reply may conclude the list simply doesn't work. Is it expected that everyone will e-mail their confusion to the moderators? Welcome to real business: dis-satisfied or confused clients are more likely to walk away than complain or petition for change. Sure, I had issues up front, but I quickly adapt to change, so I really don't care what the policy is, and that's typical of anyone we see posting here. It's the people who aren't posting that you should be concerned about. When there is a policy that requires special action to do a common function, instructions should be easily available and quite clear. Suggestions: 1) Append this text to the footer applied to forum posts after the URL: See that page for information about posting and unsubscribing I'd say just bring the footer down to one line but I'm sure there are people using the footer for filtering, so it's probably not a good idea to change it. 2) Put documentation about how to reply on the http://listserver.u2ug.org/ page. 3) Put a clear link to that documentation on the Email Lists page accessible from the u2ug.org home page. Way over my 2 cents, sorry. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
I'm lucky to keep up with this list, how do you find the time? As I am writing this message, using the reply to all button, I notice that the email is not only going to the list and David but also to Tony is this a progressive thing? When you send the email, I'm using Outlook Express, using reply to all it adds all previous to's to the list and I see this as an even bigger problem. Admittedly I am not a big list subscriber but it seems that there was no problem on this list until just recently when someone or something caused the list to go haywire and that should be fixed not the list. - Original Message - From: Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tony Gravagno [EMAIL PROTECTED]; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 5:02 PM Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations Sounds like the sky is falling. This is by no means a unique situation, this works well on numerous other lists (that I subscribe to) so why not this one? Surely the subscribers are not that silly. I know the average age of the Universe/Unidata afficionado is slowly creeping upward, but this doesn't mean we can't absorb change. My outlook filter still managed to get this into the correct folder. Regards --- ** _/ ** David Logan *** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database *_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd _/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273 _/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665 *_/ ** ** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street, _/ ** Adelaide SA 5001 Australia invent --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2006 8:33 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. ... What does this mean to you? It means this: * If you click 'reply' to respond to a list message, your response will go ONLY to the original sender of the message. * If you click 'reply to ALL', your reply will go to BOTH the original sender AND back to the list. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. ... What does this mean to you? It means this: * If you click 'reply' to respond to a list message, your response will go ONLY to the original sender of the message. * If you click 'reply to ALL', your reply will go to BOTH the original sender AND back to the list. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Unusually, I agree with Tony. Perhaps we should have talked on the list before making a change like this? Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? (I'm resending this post precisely because the original was mailed incorrectly due to the change.) Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. ... What does this mean to you? It means this: * If you click 'reply' to respond to a list message, your response will go ONLY to the original sender of the message. * If you click 'reply to ALL', your reply will go to BOTH the original sender AND back to the list. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Sounds like the sky is falling. This is by no means a unique situation, this works well on numerous other lists (that I subscribe to) so why not this one? Surely the subscribers are not that silly. I know the average age of the Universe/Unidata afficionado is slowly creeping upward, but this doesn't mean we can't absorb change. My outlook filter still managed to get this into the correct folder. Regards --- ** _/ ** David Logan *** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database *_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd _/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273 _/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665 *_/ ** ** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street, _/ ** Adelaide SA 5001 Australia invent --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2006 8:33 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. ... What does this mean to you? It means this: * If you click 'reply' to respond to a list message, your response will go ONLY to the original sender of the message. * If you click 'reply to ALL', your reply will go to BOTH the original sender AND back to the list. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
At 14:03 27/02/06 -0800, Tony Gravagno wrote: This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony For once, Tony, I totally agree with you All U2 list postings are now going to my trash bucket Please put it back to how it was... The knee jerk goes too far t'other way Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/270 - Release Date: 27/02/06 Regards, Bruce Nichol Talon Computer Services ALBURYNSW 2640 Australia http://www.taloncs.com.au Tel: +61 (0)411149636 Fax: +61 (0)260232119 If it ain't broke, fix it till it is! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/270 - Release Date: 27/02/06 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
This is a relatively minor change and the dark side of the force seem to be gathering strength against it. The list headers still have the u2ug address in them and your rules should still apply. If not, then change them so they do! Perhaps the dark side haven't really explained themselves well but I can't understand what the fuss is about. There seem to be a number of hypotheticals that assume people are incapable of managing change. I would note again, this is NOT a unique list situation. This is in fact, a more common setup than one thinks. Perhaps somebody could subscribe to the Sun Managers list, one does not reply to the list, only to the sender and the sender then publishes a summary, or perhaps one or two of the MySQL lists which use exactly this system. All lists to which I subscribe use their own methods for managing the reply, you just get used to them. The subscribers to these lists seem to handle the situation quite well. In fact, I note recent posters to this list, have all managed to reply to the list without issue and my outlook rules have placed their messages in the correct folder. Regards --- ** _/ ** David Logan *** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database *_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd _/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273 _/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665 *_/ ** ** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street, _/ ** Adelaide SA 5001 Australia invent --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Nichol Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2006 9:57 AM To: Tony Gravagno; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations At 14:03 27/02/06 -0800, Tony Gravagno wrote: This is breaking all kinds of things including filters, remailers, and maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create confusion when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this completely unique solution people are going to think they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person - and we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my response go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term solution. I think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard solution can be found. Tony For once, Tony, I totally agree with you All U2 list postings are now going to my trash bucket Please put it back to how it was... The knee jerk goes too far t'other way Larry Hiscock wrote: We have made some changes to the mailing list configuration files in an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been experiencing these past few days. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/270 - Release Date: 27/02/06 Regards, Bruce Nichol Talon Computer Services ALBURYNSW 2640 Australia http://www.taloncs.com.au Tel: +61 (0)411149636 Fax: +61 (0)260232119 If it ain't broke, fix it till it is! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/270 - Release Date: 27/02/06 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Logan, David wrote: Sounds like the sky is falling. This is by no means a unique situation, this works well on numerous other lists (that I subscribe to) so why not this one? Surely the subscribers are not that silly. I know the average age of the Universe/Unidata afficionado is slowly creeping upward, but this doesn't mean we can't absorb change. My outlook filter still managed to get this into the correct folder. Regards Well, our experience is just different. Seems a little silly to have manual procedures to conform to some list software doesn't it? Now when I do get a double posting from this forum, since they both have [U2] and other common markers, all mail gets to my U2 List folder. I'd rather not change my filters until someone here decides which way the wind will blow. As an example of how this reply-all policy is not working: I don't send directly to the list, I send through a remailer so that my e-mail address isn't broadcast to the world. But that shouldn't matter to anyone else, and it never has. Now, I need to manually paste the right e-mail address into the To field. I'll accept this as something unique to me if indeed it is, but again, I don't need to do this for any other lists - how about just getting some listserver software that works like DadaMail? (http://mojo.skazat.com/ free, open source, feature rich, well supported, popular...) It also looks like the list is accepting mail from unauthorized mail sources. I think I accidentally posted mail from an address not subscribed to the list. I dunno if this is new or not. Without digging through headers I can't tell exactly what happened and I don't have time for such things. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
A) I don't understand why you would have to change anything to send your email to the list through a remailer. B) the list does NOT accept email from unsubscribed users. I manually approved your recent post that was sent from an unsubscribed address because I felt it was germaine, and I didn't want to wait for a bounce/reply/re-post cycle. Larry Hiscock Moderator -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:12 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations Logan, David wrote: Sounds like the sky is falling. This is by no means a unique situation, this works well on numerous other lists (that I subscribe to) so why not this one? Surely the subscribers are not that silly. I know the average age of the Universe/Unidata afficionado is slowly creeping upward, but this doesn't mean we can't absorb change. My outlook filter still managed to get this into the correct folder. Regards Well, our experience is just different. Seems a little silly to have manual procedures to conform to some list software doesn't it? Now when I do get a double posting from this forum, since they both have [U2] and other common markers, all mail gets to my U2 List folder. I'd rather not change my filters until someone here decides which way the wind will blow. As an example of how this reply-all policy is not working: I don't send directly to the list, I send through a remailer so that my e-mail address isn't broadcast to the world. But that shouldn't matter to anyone else, and it never has. Now, I need to manually paste the right e-mail address into the To field. I'll accept this as something unique to me if indeed it is, but again, I don't need to do this for any other lists - how about just getting some listserver software that works like DadaMail? (http://mojo.skazat.com/ free, open source, feature rich, well supported, popular...) It also looks like the list is accepting mail from unauthorized mail sources. I think I accidentally posted mail from an address not subscribed to the list. I dunno if this is new or not. Without digging through headers I can't tell exactly what happened and I don't have time for such things. T --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) wrote: Sounds like the sky is falling. This is by no means a unique situation, this works well on numerous other lists (that I subscribe to) so why not this one? Surely the subscribers are not that silly. I know the average age of the Universe/Unidata afficionado is slowly creeping upward, but this doesn't mean we can't absorb change. My outlook filter still managed to get this into the correct folder. One list I subscribe to doesn't include the list address in posted messages, so you can't even use the reply-all option and have to key in the list address. The current setup of the U2 list is at least a little easier. This particular debate has been going on for many years, and for those unfamiliar, see The Great Reply-to Debate section at this link: http://producingoss.com/html-chunk/mailing-lists.html There are pros and cons both ways. I can only add that, based on my own experience with other lists, I got used to the posting method of the particular list fairly quickly even when I found it initially inconvenient. -John -- John Hester System Network Administrator Momentum Group Inc. (949) 833-8886 x623 http://memosamples.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
David:
I'm reminded of the building contractor who, when asked why there's no lock
on the front and back doors, replies that none of the other doors in the
house have locks on them...besides, you'll get used to it.
It is a constant in the IT industry that we are all forced to overcome the
lack of rationality and simplicity. (I see where I need to change the TO
address when I click reply otherwise the reply goes to you, unless I
remember to click the Reply to All button and remove you so as to not
remind you of the consequences of responding to the list). :-)
soapbox
This could be worse, but aren't we all tired of dealing with this constant
bull$%!t of taking different paths to process similar events (email
receipt). I couldn't care less what Sun or MySql does; the MV market was
built on rationality not inconvenient standards de'jour, so why should we
have to twiddle with a simple reply due to some technical reason?
Argh.
/soapbox
Please forgive my attitude; I've almost completed a D3 to UniData conversion
project and have been wondering why any non-MV developer would ever use U2
and any MV developer would use UniData. I'm sure I'll get over this soon
though. :-)
Bill
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Logan, David (SST - Adelaide)
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 3:58 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
This is a relatively minor change and the dark side of the
force seem to
be gathering strength against it. The list headers still have the u2ug
address in them and your rules should still apply. If not, then change
them so they do!
Perhaps the dark side haven't really explained themselves well but I
can't understand what the fuss is about. There seem to be a number of
hypotheticals that assume people are incapable of managing change.
I would note again, this is NOT a unique list situation. This is in
fact, a more common setup than one thinks. Perhaps somebody could
subscribe to the Sun Managers list, one does not reply to the
list, only
to the sender and the sender then publishes a summary, or
perhaps one or
two of the MySQL lists which use exactly this system.
All lists to which I subscribe use their own methods for managing the
reply, you just get used to them. The subscribers to these
lists seem to
handle the situation quite well. In fact, I note recent
posters to this
list, have all managed to reply to the list without issue and
my outlook
rules have placed their messages in the correct folder.
Regards
---
** _/ ** David Logan
*** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database
*_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273
_/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665
*_/ **
** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street,
_/ ** Adelaide SA 5001
Australia
invent
---
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Nichol
Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2006 9:57 AM
To: Tony Gravagno; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
At 14:03 27/02/06 -0800, Tony Gravagno wrote:
This is breaking all kinds of things including filters,
remailers, and
maybe threading for some reader programs. It's going to create
confusion
when people mail to one another off-list. And for anyone who isn't
familiar with this completely unique solution people are
going to think
they're responding to a list when they're responding to some person -
and
we might start seeing ongoing inquiries about hey, where did my
response
go? Sorry folks but I don't believe this is a good long-term
solution. I
think we should go back to the way it was until a more standard
solution
can be found.
Tony
For once, Tony, I totally agree with you All U2 list postings are
now
going to my trash bucket
Please put it back to how it was... The knee jerk goes too
far t'other
way
Larry Hiscock wrote:
We have made some changes to the mailing list
configuration files in
an attempt to reduce some of the problems we have been
experiencing
these past few days.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/270 - Release
Date: 27/02/06
Regards,
Bruce Nichol
Talon Computer Services
ALBURYNSW 2640
Australia
http://www.taloncs.com.au
Tel: +61 (0)411149636
Fax: +61 (0)260232119
RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
quote
I couldn't care less what Sun or MySql does; the MV market was
built on rationality not inconvenient standards de'jour, so why should
we
have to twiddle with a simple reply due to some technical reason?
Argh.
/quote
Sadly there is a large world out there that can't be ignored. As Larry
put it, this is the usual way that most lists use. I run a couple of
lists myself and this is normal behaviour.
Perhaps one of the reasons why there aren't that many new people coming
into the u2 arena is encapsulated in the response above. We, as a
community, need to know what else is going on in the world.
Unfortunately taking the insular path does not always work. The love of
rationality has nowt to do with the real world.
Regards
---
** _/ ** David Logan
*** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database
*_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273
_/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665
*_/ **
** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street,
_/ ** Adelaide SA 5001
Australia
invent
---
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett
Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2006 12:02 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
David:
I'm reminded of the building contractor who, when asked why there's no
lock
on the front and back doors, replies that none of the other doors in the
house have locks on them...besides, you'll get used to it.
It is a constant in the IT industry that we are all forced to overcome
the
lack of rationality and simplicity. (I see where I need to change the
TO
address when I click reply otherwise the reply goes to you, unless I
remember to click the Reply to All button and remove you so as to not
remind you of the consequences of responding to the list). :-)
soapbox
This could be worse, but aren't we all tired of dealing with this
constant
bull$%!t of taking different paths to process similar events (email
receipt). I couldn't care less what Sun or MySql does; the MV market
was
built on rationality not inconvenient standards de'jour, so why should
we
have to twiddle with a simple reply due to some technical reason?
Argh.
/soapbox
Please forgive my attitude; I've almost completed a D3 to UniData
conversion
project and have been wondering why any non-MV developer would ever use
U2
and any MV developer would use UniData. I'm sure I'll get over this
soon
though. :-)
Bill
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Logan, David (SST - Adelaide)
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 3:58 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
This is a relatively minor change and the dark side of the
force seem to
be gathering strength against it. The list headers still have the u2ug
address in them and your rules should still apply. If not, then change
them so they do!
Perhaps the dark side haven't really explained themselves well but I
can't understand what the fuss is about. There seem to be a number of
hypotheticals that assume people are incapable of managing change.
I would note again, this is NOT a unique list situation. This is in
fact, a more common setup than one thinks. Perhaps somebody could
subscribe to the Sun Managers list, one does not reply to the
list, only
to the sender and the sender then publishes a summary, or
perhaps one or
two of the MySQL lists which use exactly this system.
All lists to which I subscribe use their own methods for managing the
reply, you just get used to them. The subscribers to these
lists seem to
handle the situation quite well. In fact, I note recent
posters to this
list, have all managed to reply to the list without issue and
my outlook
rules have placed their messages in the correct folder.
Regards
---
** _/ ** David Logan
*** _/ *** ITO Delivery Specialist - Database
*_/* Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_/ _/ _/ _/ Desk: +618 8408 4273
_/ _/ _/_/_/ Mobile: 0417 268 665
*_/ **
** _/ Postal: 148 Frome Street,
_/ ** Adelaide SA 5001
Australia
invent
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Bill Haskett wrote: Please forgive my attitude; I've almost completed a D3 to UniData conversion project and have been wondering why any non-MV developer would ever use U2 and any MV developer would use UniData. Bill I'd like to hear more of this conversion story and the opinions it fostered. Please hit reply :) (in keeping with the situation) Bob Little --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
Well, maybe in the spirit of democracy, the U2UG should vote for their preference. I like the new way myself, as it is much harder to accidently email everyone when I just want to respond to the sender, and easier to do both. Before, I would have to cut and paste the sender's name into the to window if I wanted to reply only to them. This is much easier. And if this 53-year-old can remember the new feature, all you youngsters should be able to also! -- Louie On 2/27/06, Bob Little [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill Haskett wrote: Please forgive my attitude; I've almost completed a D3 to UniData conversion project and have been wondering why any non-MV developer would ever use U2 and any MV developer would use UniData. Bill I'd like to hear more of this conversion story and the opinions it fostered. Please hit reply :) (in keeping with the situation) Bob Little --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations
- Original Message - From: Mark Ballinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Changes to mail list configurations Well, geez. If we're voting, I vote for the new way. After all . . . http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html (and, yes, I expect the response article will be referred to quickly enough here.) Just about every list I belong to has had this very same discussion. Just about every one has switched to this new way. If your email reader is unable to thread because of this, then I feel sorry for you. --- Well, I'll cast a vote for the new way too. Munging email headers - BAD Munging anything can be dangerous to it's health - LOL I googled 'munge' and the first hit was a link to a page indicating Microsoft dropped the munge.exe find/replace utility from it's Resource Kits - I guess munging just isn't cool anymore ;-) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
