Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Tony, You are very good at asserting things about which you have no knowledge, putting forward statements as facts that have no foundation. You and I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met. I know nothing about you other than as a name on this list and I guess you know as little about me. You say George, you're not a U2.NET user, you know that do you? You say Please ... get someone with technical insight into this forum and accuse me of using marketing rhetoric. Apparently I'm making the assertion that responses to technical questions suddenly become non-technical when the respondant mentions a for-fee solution, am I? Don't remember doing that. As I say, you don't know me, but I can trade technical U2 credentials with anyone, 27 years starting with RPL on CMC Reality through every variation of mv database, language and most tools you can think of to web based applications built on U2 today. Along the way I've had a significant involvement in three applications that have each sold thousands of seats and generated millions in revenues. Fortunately the third one of those my business partner and I own so today I split my time between leading a development team and the other pressures of running small group of companies. So I'm a developer too, just one that's been fortunate enough to have a lot of commercial success with my products, it is not lack of technical insight that stops me getting involved in a 'nuts and bolts' discussion on these products. It is simply that I don't think this is an appropriate forum to do it, nor do I think it is particularly wise if there is any element of comparison with another product. I'm not commenting on your position, but mine is as a vendor with a declared interest and I don't see vendor comments about the products they sell being welcome here. I don't see others doing it and, other than correcting errors, I'm not about to do it myself. George Land APT Solutions Limited U2 UK Distributor On 13/08/2010 01:49, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: This discussion is borderline OT but this topic of advertising comes up often and applies to many here. I think it needs to be discussed in the context of this mv.NET/U2.NET comparison. From: George Land The problem is how you separate opinion from advertising and self promotion, how you define the line between fair comment and something much more serious. I can refer you to discussions in the TigerLogic/D3 forum where I have taken extreme exception to one vendor who chronically posts responses which have nothing to do with enquiries, simply to promote his product. He also includes a large, annoying screen shot of his product in every posting. For him the forum is nothing but a vehicle for self-promotion and he has no interest in helping people solve their various business/technical issues. _That_ is what none of us want, but _that_ is not what happens in this U2 forum. I'm a developer like most others here. I use software, I recommend tools that I like, and when I really like what I use, I take the next step to sell it. There are a vast number of products that I don't like which I don't sell - and many people here know that I've withdrawn support for software and companies that don't meet my standards. My positive commentary doesn't get invalidated as soon as I put my money where my mouth is. On the contrary, I think my opinion should be given more weight when I make a serious business investment in products that I use every day for providing business solutions. With regard to mv.NET, the tiny commission my company gets by selling other companies' products doesn't buy me as a mouthpiece. People need to evaluate the situation by a different measure when a user/reseller promotes something they like, compared to when a company employee talks up their own product. I am biased, I put the words 'U2 UK Distributor' in my signature because I own half of the company that distributes U2 in the UK. We are one of Rocket's largest U2 business partners and we sell U2.NET, we don't sell mv.NET. And with that in mind, George, you're not a U2.NET user and most of your arguments here are invalid. Your view is we are motivated to sell it, therefore we advocate it, not the other way around. I have yet to hear a single valid technical point about why U2.NET should be chosen over mv.NET. There is no room for empty marketing rhetoric here. Please use your position of influence to get someone with technical insight into this forum to tell us in solid technical terms what IBM/Rocket has done to make U2.NET a viable competitor against other offerings. Does anyone here find that to be an unreasonable request, despite the source? I am also a board member of the U2 user group and support the concept that this list is not for advertising or self promotion, it is a technical list. You're making the assertion that responses to technical questions
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
So back the original point - what has been done to U2.net in the past 2 years, as a var of udt buying from APT I don't know ! - so i, and it looks like this group as well, would like some enlightenment please. I know how MV.NET has come on in leaps and bounds and it would be good to compare. Thanks Symeon. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land Sent: 13 August 2010 07:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Tony, You are very good at asserting things about which you have no knowledge, putting forward statements as facts that have no foundation. You and I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met. I know nothing about you other than as a name on this list and I guess you know as little about me. You say George, you're not a U2.NET user, you know that do you? You say Please ... get someone with technical insight into this forum and accuse me of using marketing rhetoric. Apparently I'm making the assertion that responses to technical questions suddenly become non-technical when the respondant mentions a for-fee solution, am I? Don't remember doing that. As I say, you don't know me, but I can trade technical U2 credentials with anyone, 27 years starting with RPL on CMC Reality through every variation of mv database, language and most tools you can think of to web based applications built on U2 today. Along the way I've had a significant involvement in three applications that have each sold thousands of seats and generated millions in revenues. Fortunately the third one of those my business partner and I own so today I split my time between leading a development team and the other pressures of running small group of companies. So I'm a developer too, just one that's been fortunate enough to have a lot of commercial success with my products, it is not lack of technical insight that stops me getting involved in a 'nuts and bolts' discussion on these products. It is simply that I don't think this is an appropriate forum to do it, nor do I think it is particularly wise if there is any element of comparison with another product. I'm not commenting on your position, but mine is as a vendor with a declared interest and I don't see vendor comments about the products they sell being welcome here. I don't see others doing it and, other than correcting errors, I'm not about to do it myself. George Land APT Solutions Limited U2 UK Distributor On 13/08/2010 01:49, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: This discussion is borderline OT but this topic of advertising comes up often and applies to many here. I think it needs to be discussed in the context of this mv.NET/U2.NET comparison. From: George Land The problem is how you separate opinion from advertising and self promotion, how you define the line between fair comment and something much more serious. I can refer you to discussions in the TigerLogic/D3 forum where I have taken extreme exception to one vendor who chronically posts responses which have nothing to do with enquiries, simply to promote his product. He also includes a large, annoying screen shot of his product in every posting. For him the forum is nothing but a vehicle for self-promotion and he has no interest in helping people solve their various business/technical issues. _That_ is what none of us want, but _that_ is not what happens in this U2 forum. I'm a developer like most others here. I use software, I recommend tools that I like, and when I really like what I use, I take the next step to sell it. There are a vast number of products that I don't like which I don't sell - and many people here know that I've withdrawn support for software and companies that don't meet my standards. My positive commentary doesn't get invalidated as soon as I put my money where my mouth is. On the contrary, I think my opinion should be given more weight when I make a serious business investment in products that I use every day for providing business solutions. With regard to mv.NET, the tiny commission my company gets by selling other companies' products doesn't buy me as a mouthpiece. People need to evaluate the situation by a different measure when a user/reseller promotes something they like, compared to when a company employee talks up their own product. I am biased, I put the words 'U2 UK Distributor' in my signature because I own half of the company that distributes U2 in the UK. We are one of Rocket's largest U2 business partners and we sell U2.NET, we don't sell mv.NET. And with that in mind, George, you're not a U2.NET user and most of your arguments here are invalid. Your view is we are motivated to sell it, therefore we advocate it, not the other way around. I have yet to hear a single valid technical point about why U2.NET should be chosen over mv.NET. There is no room for empty marketing
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I'll second that... Perhaps some of the large amount of energies expended in this colourful exchange can be diverted to a blow-by-blow feature comparison of U2.NET and MV.NET for a Spectrum magazine article? :-) - features - optimisation - benefits - licensing arrangements/schemes - installed licensed user base figures would be interesting to know - perhaps some basic benchmarking against the same back-end database/server would be great :-) And just for the heck of it - why not throw in the ISS PDP.NET into the mix too! Just a thought for someone! David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Friday, 13 August 2010 6:03 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET So back the original point - what has been done to U2.net in the past 2 years, as a var of udt buying from APT I don't know ! - so i, and it looks like this group as well, would like some enlightenment please. I know how MV.NET has come on in leaps and bounds and it would be good to compare. Thanks Symeon. ** IMPORTANT MESSAGE * This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information which may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please advise the sender by return email, do not use or disclose the contents, and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (ABN 48 123 123 124) or its subsidiaries. We can be contacted through our web site: commbank.com.au. If you no longer wish to receive commercial electronic messages from us, please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. ** ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
That would be great if someone is able to do it. They'd need to be truly independent, have the requisite technical experience, get buy in from all the vendors concerned and have the resources to build and test. That would be great, but it's not a trivial thing to do. George Land APT Solutions Ltd Sent from my iPhone On 13 Aug 2010, at 11:07, Hona, David david.h...@cba.com.au wrote: I'll second that... Perhaps some of the large amount of energies expended in this colourful exchange can be diverted to a blow-by-blow feature comparison of U2.NET and MV.NET for a Spectrum magazine article? :-) - features - optimisation - benefits - licensing arrangements/schemes - installed licensed user base figures would be interesting to know - perhaps some basic benchmarking against the same back-end database/server would be great :-) And just for the heck of it - why not throw in the ISS PDP.NET into the mix too! Just a thought for someone! David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Friday, 13 August 2010 6:03 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET So back the original point - what has been done to U2.net in the past 2 years, as a var of udt buying from APT I don't know ! - so i, and it looks like this group as well, would like some enlightenment please. I know how MV.NET has come on in leaps and bounds and it would be good to compare. Thanks Symeon. ** IMPORTANT MESSAGE * This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information which may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please advise the sender by return email, do not use or disclose the contents, and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (ABN 48 123 123 124) or its subsidiaries. We can be contacted through our web site: commbank.com.au. If you no longer wish to receive commercial electronic messages from us, please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. ** ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Tony, On 06/08/2010 10:16, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: From: George Land (TG: Putting this up top) Please stick to telling us about what you know and not being negative about competing products that you don't know. George, it bothers me when people do that too. By nature I'm neither competitive nor argumentative, but as a developer I'm extremely detail- and technically-oriented, and lack of detail or technical accuracy will surely provoke responses from me. Perceive that as negative and competitive if you will but my open questions and assertions would be the same no matter what products I sell. If you want to defend U2.NET for any reason, please be specific and avoid marketing rhetoric that can't be substantiated. The problem is how you separate opinion from advertising and self promotion, how you define the line between fair comment and something much more serious. I am biased, I put the words 'U2 UK Distributor' in my signature because I own half of the company that distributes U2 in the UK. We are one of Rocket's largest U2 business partners and we sell U2.NET, we don't sell mv.NET. I am also a board member of the U2 user group and support the concept that this list is not for advertising or self promotion, it is a technical list. As someone who makes money selling U2.NET I don't think it is appropriate for me to do anything more than I have, to correct the assertion that U2.NET is 'frozen in time'. I'd simply say to anyone looking at this stuff to look at them all and make their own mind up. George Land APT Solutions Limited U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
This discussion is borderline OT but this topic of advertising comes up often and applies to many here. I think it needs to be discussed in the context of this mv.NET/U2.NET comparison. From: George Land The problem is how you separate opinion from advertising and self promotion, how you define the line between fair comment and something much more serious. I can refer you to discussions in the TigerLogic/D3 forum where I have taken extreme exception to one vendor who chronically posts responses which have nothing to do with enquiries, simply to promote his product. He also includes a large, annoying screen shot of his product in every posting. For him the forum is nothing but a vehicle for self-promotion and he has no interest in helping people solve their various business/technical issues. _That_ is what none of us want, but _that_ is not what happens in this U2 forum. I'm a developer like most others here. I use software, I recommend tools that I like, and when I really like what I use, I take the next step to sell it. There are a vast number of products that I don't like which I don't sell - and many people here know that I've withdrawn support for software and companies that don't meet my standards. My positive commentary doesn't get invalidated as soon as I put my money where my mouth is. On the contrary, I think my opinion should be given more weight when I make a serious business investment in products that I use every day for providing business solutions. With regard to mv.NET, the tiny commission my company gets by selling other companies' products doesn't buy me as a mouthpiece. People need to evaluate the situation by a different measure when a user/reseller promotes something they like, compared to when a company employee talks up their own product. I am biased, I put the words 'U2 UK Distributor' in my signature because I own half of the company that distributes U2 in the UK. We are one of Rocket's largest U2 business partners and we sell U2.NET, we don't sell mv.NET. And with that in mind, George, you're not a U2.NET user and most of your arguments here are invalid. Your view is we are motivated to sell it, therefore we advocate it, not the other way around. I have yet to hear a single valid technical point about why U2.NET should be chosen over mv.NET. There is no room for empty marketing rhetoric here. Please use your position of influence to get someone with technical insight into this forum to tell us in solid technical terms what IBM/Rocket has done to make U2.NET a viable competitor against other offerings. Does anyone here find that to be an unreasonable request, despite the source? I am also a board member of the U2 user group and support the concept that this list is not for advertising or self promotion, it is a technical list. You're making the assertion that responses to technical questions suddenly become non-technical when the respondant mentions a for-fee solution, especially one that they happen to sell. We need third-party tools and we shouldn't suppress discussion of the same. Just because the DBMS vendor puts something into the box doesn't mean it's good, complete, well maintained, or reasonably priced. Many fine products like MITS and Informer were created to supplement what's in the box and to add value to the DBMS platform. If someone asks for BI or reporting and a response is to take a look at MITS or Informer, does anyone here choke? If that response comes from an employee of one of the companies that produces those products, is their response non-technical and invalid? In every response I make in these forums, my intent is to inform the person making the enquiry of a specific solution to their business/technical problem. I go further to re-affirm for other readers (when this applies) that the products I propose solve many other problems. That last affirmation is both informational as well as promotional - but one cannot exist without the other in this context. And yet this forum has an unusual number of people who seem to be stuck on separating the merits of solutions from people who provide them. In many cases, the best or only people qualified to provided detailed information about products are the people who develop and/or support them. This market just isn't big enough to have a community of people passionate enough about specific tools, coupled with a deep understanding of the tool details, and yet outside of the reseller channel. This is one of the reasons why most of the third-party product forums in this market are virtually empty. This is simply a fact of life resulting from our original choice to work with the MV DBMS. People need to adapt, accept professionals in the DBMS forums, as well as occasional product-specific queries and responses. As someone who makes money selling U2.NET I don't think it is appropriate for me to do anything more than I have, to correct the assertion that U2.NET is
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I suppose I should have mentioned that Inland uses a very heavily modified and enhanced version of SHIMS (Supply House Information Management System) for the heavy truck parts and service industry. Of course, any programs that I wrote for Inland belong to them, and I could not share them (I don't even have them). However, I do have 12 years experience and knowledge to offer. Charlie Noah On 08-09-2010 2:45 PM, Charlie Noah wrote: I want to let the group know that I am no longer with Inland Truck Parts. I am, however, still 100% committed to the Multivalue world, and I hope to be working again in MV very soon. Regards to all, Charlie Noah ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I want to let the group know that I am no longer with Inland Truck Parts. I am, however, still 100% committed to the Multivalue world, and I hope to be working again in MV very soon. Regards to all, Charlie Noah ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
From: George Land (TG: Putting this up top) Please stick to telling us about what you know and not being negative about competing products that you don't know. George, it bothers me when people do that too. By nature I'm neither competitive nor argumentative, but as a developer I'm extremely detail- and technically-oriented, and lack of detail or technical accuracy will surely provoke responses from me. Perceive that as negative and competitive if you will but my open questions and assertions would be the same no matter what products I sell. If you want to defend U2.NET for any reason, please be specific and avoid marketing rhetoric that can't be substantiated. I was quite serious when I expressed interest in (soon to be renamed) IBM.NET and I've said nothing negative about it. But I still haven't heard anything concrete to define a real benefit of U2.NET over mv.NET - nothing that really answer's Bill's original question. The more we talk about it and the more I hear the one promo line below, the more I'm wondering where's the beef? with U2.NET. In fact I wrote a whole blog on U2.NET last October: nospam_pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/mv-net/2009/10/u2dotnet1.html No one challenged any of the content. The little that I know seems to be accurate, and enough to present a fact-based commentary and compelling product comparison. a lot of the work was on installation and performance. Yeah, I get those two points, as in: 1) remove anything related to installation in other MV platforms, and 2) make it faster by doing something that they don't allow UO.NET developers to do. Are you mixing the terms scalability and performance? I don't see any quantifiable claims of speed improvements anywhere, but I do see mention of connection pooling to increase scalability. Uh, to my understanding, connection pooling is a licensing concept and has nothing to do with performance. Or is UO.NET connectivity (used under mv.NET) intentionally throttled for anyone who doesn't pay the juice? It is not a crippled version of mv.NET nor is it 'frozen in time'. Great, can anyone provide any details about exactly what has gone into this product over the last couple years? I'll give you one - I think U2.NET supports multi-byte characters where mv.NET does not. But to quote you: but it is of absolutely no interest to me nor, I suspect to most other people likely to use it. I also see that in business terms, Rocket restricts the licenses provided to developers to be used only for development purposes. That's not like mv.NET licensing where you can use the licenses you buy for any reason you wish. I have clients who buy developer licenses just because the cost over the actual production licenses is trivial. Forcing a developer at an end-user site to purchase more licenses for production use inflates the cost of U2.NET yet another few hundred dollars. I welcome anyone to simply compare pricing of the products to estimate your TCO. By abandoning cross platform support they can make a product that is optimised for U2. Marketing-speak doesn't hold up well in a developer forum. (I'm seeing a trend here of business/licensing/marketing terms influencing what's intended to be perceived as technical benefits.) That statement assumes that support for multiple platforms means there are going to be excessive Case PlatformX statements that seriously degrade performance. If that were the case the product would be broken into mv.NET for D3 and mv.NET for Universe. But since different code modules are loaded in mv.NET for different MV platforms anyway, I'm wondering what IBM did to remove non-U2 code that wasn't loaded to U2 systems anyway. This lack of cross platform support seems to matter to you, but it is of absolutely no interest to me nor, I suspect to most other people likely to use it. I'm not going to port my application to jbase or D3. Chest a bit puffy there? :) Perhaps not yourself but many of us do support other platforms in addition to U2. My business these days is about 60% U2 and 40% other. I concede that few U2-only developers are going to migrate to other platforms, and I will be happy to take that one feature off of the table since there other points worthy of discussion. But I hope you're not arguing that, ipso facto, removal of a feature makes the product better. What else do you have to offer in favor of this product, other than optimized for U2? Regards and Thanks, T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
At the risk of sounding like I'm disparaging a competing offering, here is my understanding of U2.NET. Corrections are welcome: 1) U2.NET is essentially an old version of mv.NET (a fork). A license to the source was purchased by IBM from BlueFinity. It's essentially v3.2.x (?) frozen in time. Not quite, U2.NET has it's origins in mv.NET but has since been developed on by IBM/Rocket. I understand that Initially the work focussed on making it more performant and on improving the installability of it. It is now a fully fledged Rocket product with a development path of it's own. 2) It has not progressed in sync with mv.NET to support new features like Solution Objects (code generation of strongly-typed business classes) or the new extended support for Silverlight. No license was purchased by IBM/Rocket for ongoing enhancements or fixes from BlueFinity. Again, not quite. Bluefinity don't develop U2.NET it is a Rocket product with a development path and development team of it's own. It won't develop in sync with mv.NET or with anything else, it is an independent product with it's own development path. 3) Where the same mv.NET software can be used across almost all Pick/MV platforms, U2.NET hase been restricted to operating only with U2. I really don't get this. Land Rover make aftermarket products for Land Rovers, they don't make them for Jeeps. U2 represents the overwhelming majority of the mv market, it would be perverse of them to even consider making their tools work with anything other than U2. What you will get with a Rocket product is something that is designed for and written for U2. As UniVerse and UniData move forwards so the tools move forwards with them, and vice versa. 4) I originally thought and hoped that it would be provided free to the U2 client base. I really wanted to use U2.NET as an alternative to UO.NET and mv.NET for sites where it was better suited. But to my surprise this severely and intentionally limited product (in current features and its future) is being sold to U2 sites at a price comparable to mv.NET itself. If you want free then you should be looking at IBM.NET (soon to be renamed), with is an ADO.NET provider with add ins for Visual Studio, including support for SSIS and SSRS, LINQ, Silverlight and support for U2 Automatic Data Encryption. With it, you can access your U2 Data with SQL commands (like select, insert), U2 style access too (U2 Subroutines, unnest, DynArray Class, CALL LIST and SQLExecDirect), or through XML (TOXML, GETXMLSUB, XmlAdapter) and with Object Data access (LINQ to Entity, EDM Model). George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I wondered when IBM.Net data provider would be added to the thread.We've been using it quite reliably for a couple of years.Total access to U2, true .Net capabilities. And It's free. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:29 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET At the risk of sounding like I'm disparaging a competing offering, here is my understanding of U2.NET. Corrections are welcome: 1) U2.NET is essentially an old version of mv.NET (a fork). A license to the source was purchased by IBM from BlueFinity. It's essentially v3.2.x (?) frozen in time. Not quite, U2.NET has it's origins in mv.NET but has since been developed on by IBM/Rocket. I understand that Initially the work focussed on making it more performant and on improving the installability of it. It is now a fully fledged Rocket product with a development path of it's own. 2) It has not progressed in sync with mv.NET to support new features like Solution Objects (code generation of strongly-typed business classes) or the new extended support for Silverlight. No license was purchased by IBM/Rocket for ongoing enhancements or fixes from BlueFinity. Again, not quite. Bluefinity don't develop U2.NET it is a Rocket product with a development path and development team of it's own. It won't develop in sync with mv.NET or with anything else, it is an independent product with it's own development path. 3) Where the same mv.NET software can be used across almost all Pick/MV platforms, U2.NET hase been restricted to operating only with U2. I really don't get this. Land Rover make aftermarket products for Land Rovers, they don't make them for Jeeps. U2 represents the overwhelming majority of the mv market, it would be perverse of them to even consider making their tools work with anything other than U2. What you will get with a Rocket product is something that is designed for and written for U2. As UniVerse and UniData move forwards so the tools move forwards with them, and vice versa. 4) I originally thought and hoped that it would be provided free to the U2 client base. I really wanted to use U2.NET as an alternative to UO.NET and mv.NET for sites where it was better suited. But to my surprise this severely and intentionally limited product (in current features and its future) is being sold to U2 sites at a price comparable to mv.NET itself. If you want free then you should be looking at IBM.NET (soon to be renamed), with is an ADO.NET provider with add ins for Visual Studio, including support for SSIS and SSRS, LINQ, Silverlight and support for U2 Automatic Data Encryption. With it, you can access your U2 Data with SQL commands (like select, insert), U2 style access too (U2 Subroutines, unnest, DynArray Class, CALL LIST and SQLExecDirect), or through XML (TOXML, GETXMLSUB, XmlAdapter) and with Object Data access (LINQ to Entity, EDM Model). George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
In a message dated 8/3/2010 5:51:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes: The mv.NET forum gets no hits, in part because everyone gets their answers from their sales/support people. The same goes for DesignBais, UO.NET, QMClient, Viságe, FlashCONNECT, and many other products. Maybe high quality software and excellent support serve as a form of anti-marketing? :) C'est la vie. H. Seems a little Pollyanna. Just to poke you. Personally I've found that a fair percentage of people like forum based questions. Maybe these products just don't have many customers. That could also explain the lack of online response. Did I mention that AccuTerm has a free developer license ? Hint Hint Big Hint. I've sold more copies of AccuTerm because I can demostrate that it works, than I've sold copies of software that I can't even download without payment. If anyone has a free copy of whatever that isn't on my resource list, let me know and I'll add you. http://knol.google.com/k/pick-universe-unidata-resources ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
In a message dated 8/3/2010 6:47:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cwn...@comcast.net writes: There's an MV.NET forum? News to me. Tell me how to access it and I will definitely check it out. A few years ago I believe it was announced. It's a Google Group here http://groups.google.co.uk/group/mvnet?hl=en-GBpli=1 Perversely the group admin has set it to private view Anti-marketing at it's best :) W. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
George: What's the difference between IBM.NET (soon to be renamed) and U2.NET? Thanks, Bill George Land said the following on 8/4/2010 12:29 AM: At the risk of sounding like I'm disparaging a competing offering, here is my understanding of U2.NET. Corrections are welcome: 1) U2.NET is essentially an old version of mv.NET (a fork). A license to the source was purchased by IBM from BlueFinity. It's essentially v3.2.x (?) frozen in time. Not quite, U2.NET has it's origins in mv.NET but has since been developed on by IBM/Rocket. I understand that Initially the work focussed on making it more performant and on improving the installability of it. It is now a fully fledged Rocket product with a development path of it's own. 2) It has not progressed in sync with mv.NET to support new features like Solution Objects (code generation of strongly-typed business classes) or the new extended support for Silverlight. No license was purchased by IBM/Rocket for ongoing enhancements or fixes from BlueFinity. Again, not quite. Bluefinity don't develop U2.NET it is a Rocket product with a development path and development team of it's own. It won't develop in sync with mv.NET or with anything else, it is an independent product with it's own development path. 3) Where the same mv.NET software can be used across almost all Pick/MV platforms, U2.NET hase been restricted to operating only with U2. I really don't get this. Land Rover make aftermarket products for Land Rovers, they don't make them for Jeeps. U2 represents the overwhelming majority of the mv market, it would be perverse of them to even consider making their tools work with anything other than U2. What you will get with a Rocket product is something that is designed for and written for U2. As UniVerse and UniData move forwards so the tools move forwards with them, and vice versa. 4) I originally thought and hoped that it would be provided free to the U2 client base. I really wanted to use U2.NET as an alternative to UO.NET and mv.NET for sites where it was better suited. But to my surprise this severely and intentionally limited product (in current features and its future) is being sold to U2 sites at a price comparable to mv.NET itself. If you want free then you should be looking at IBM.NET (soon to be renamed), with is an ADO.NET provider with add ins for Visual Studio, including support for SSIS and SSRS, LINQ, Silverlight and support for U2 Automatic Data Encryption. With it, you can access your U2 Data with SQL commands (like select, insert), U2 style access too (U2 Subroutines, unnest, DynArray Class, CALL LIST and SQLExecDirect), or through XML (TOXML, GETXMLSUB, XmlAdapter) and with Object Data access (LINQ to Entity, EDM Model). George Land APT Solutions Ltd U2 UK Distributor ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
From: George Land U2.NET has it's origins in mv.NET but has since been developed on by IBM/Rocket. I understand that Initially the work focussed on making it more performant and on improving the installability of it. I didn't know about installability changes. mv.NET can be installed in a variety of configurations and over many MV environments, so the installation can be confusing. This is why we offer free installation and configuration to prospects and clients. I would really like to see a video or online webinar that shows a U2.NET installation so that I can understand how Rocket has improved the process. 2) It has not progressed in sync with mv.NET... Bluefinity don't develop U2.NET it is a Rocket product with a development path and development team of it's own. It won't develop in sync with mv.NET or with anything else, it is an independent product with it's own development path. Um, that's exactly what I said. ;) Seriously - I'm not aware of the U2.NET development path and I think Bill was wondering exactly what that path is so that he can compare it with what's been done with mv.NET since the fork. 3) Where the same mv.NET software can be used across almost all Pick/MV platforms, U2.NET hase been restricted to operating only with U2. I really don't get this. My point was that a product that works for all platforms was stripped down to work with one platform and then sold at (my understanding) the same price. Where's the value-add in that? Why wouldn't someone just get the full version that has extensive enhancements over the stripped-down version if they're going to pay the exact same price (or less)? Land Rover make aftermarket products for Land Rovers, they don't make them for Jeeps. U2 represents the overwhelming majority of the mv market, it would be perverse of them to even consider making their tools work with anything other than U2. Firestone makes tires for Jeep and Land Rover, what value (or business motivation) would there be in Land Rover rebranding a line of Firestone tires that can only be used on their vehicles - and at the same price as Firestone - especially while Firestone continues to enhance their cross-vehicle offerings? What you will get with a Rocket product is something that is designed for and written for U2. This software was not designed for and written for U2. They bought source code, cut out pieces, and rebranded it. When IBM had their name behind the software, there was a perceived it says IBM, it must be better. Now it's just Rocket. C'mon. That's not going to help anyone's marketing. So now we need to focus on technology and price, and this question about what differentiates U2.NET from other offerings is much more important. As an aside, I think the embrace and extend approach to business is a little silly. Isn't this one of the reasons why so many people dislike Microsoft? If U2 vendors want to get DBMS business from other MV providers they should encourage developers to use cross-platform tools like mv.NET simply to make migrations easier. By creating a fork of a product like this that is potentially incompatible with the cross-platform product, IBM/Rocket essentially puts up another barrier to migration. Now if IBM/Rocket rebrands a product like mv.NET and keeps it in sync with the baseline, companies eventually migrate the mv.NET code that they continue to develop, if they find that worthwhile, with very little pain. Developers like myself could also more easily offer services for either product. Perhaps I missed an opportunity by not marketing myself as a U2.NET developer. But I'm glad I didn't, as I would soon get frustrated with inability to do things with U2.NET that I can do with mv.NET. That said, hey, if anyone needs help with a new U2.NET interface, let me know. :) If you want free then you should be looking at IBM.NET (soon to be renamed), with is an ADO.NET provider with add ins for Visual Studio... Yes, perhaps that is the free offering that I was looking for. I had no idea IBM.NET was so sophisticated. Your description includes many (all?) features already in mv.NET, with different names and coding approaches. I will be interested in seeing how Rocket positions IBM.NET against U2.NET. I'm guessing the differentiator is that U2.NET makes use of session management inherited from mv.NET where this may not be available in IBM.NET? Thanks for the notes. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Thanks, Charlie. I'm surprised so few in this forum either use these products or are willing to talk about them. :-( Bill Charlie Noah said the following on 8/2/2010 4:09 PM: Bill, We're just getting into MV.NET with Jbase, using one pad PC running a shop bay scheduling system. We are finding it very expensive, difficult to work with and a resource HOG. One session took as much bandwidth as the entire store it's being used at normally takes - one of our bigger stores, so that's considerable. I'm not really involved with it, thank God, but I'm seeing the fallout. I don't know anything about U2.NET. Regards, Charlie Noah Inland Truck Parts Company On 08-02-2010 4:32 PM, Bill Haskett wrote: Does anyone use mv.NET? Do you have any problems; stability, connectivity, licensing, etc? Is U2.NET a good substitute? I understand they re-wrote the licensing. What is the U2.NET cost? Does anyone use U2.NET? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity support team? On what basis are you assessing the cost of mv.NET as being very expensive? Compared to what else? What mv.NET process(es) are you classifying as a resource HOG? Again, to my knowledge, BlueFinity support has received absolutely nothing relating to this issue from your organization. What kind of data movement pattern is being performed at the store you mention? Did anyone at Inland Truck ask BlueFinity for assistance in diagnosing this issue? It seems to me as though a little more communication with BlueFinity support might me to the benefit of everyone here. As for U2.NET, I refer you to Tony Gravagno's post on this thread. David Cooper Lead developer BlueFinity International __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Bill, BlueFinity pays very close attention to its customers. We pride ourselves on our responsiveness to customer issues and have many, many testimonials from our customer base that testify to this fact. If customers do not communicate issues to us how are we supposed to assist? David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 16:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity support team? On what basis are you assessing the cost of mv.NET as being very expensive? Compared to what else? What mv.NET process(es) are you classifying as a resource HOG? Again, to my knowledge, BlueFinity support has received absolutely nothing relating to this issue from your organization. What kind of data movement pattern is being performed at the store you mention? Did anyone at Inland Truck ask BlueFinity for assistance in diagnosing this issue? It seems to me as though a little more communication with BlueFinity support might me to the benefit of everyone here. As for U2.NET, I refer you to Tony Gravagno's post on this thread. David Cooper Lead developer BlueFinity International __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Ahhh. The old customer's fault perspective. I like that...I only wish I could use it myself. :-) Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 10:09 AM: Bill, BlueFinity pays very close attention to its customers. We pride ourselves on our responsiveness to customer issues and have many, many testimonials from our customer base that testify to this fact. If customers do not communicate issues to us how are we supposed to assist? David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 16:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity support team? On what basis are you assessing the cost of mv.NET as being very expensive? Compared to what else? What mv.NET process(es) are you classifying as a resource HOG? Again, to my knowledge, BlueFinity support has received absolutely nothing relating to this issue from your organization. What kind of data movement pattern is being performed at the store you mention? Did anyone at Inland Truck ask BlueFinity for assistance in diagnosing this issue? It seems to me as though a little more communication with BlueFinity support might me to the benefit of everyone here. As for U2.NET, I refer you to Tony Gravagno's post on this thread. David Cooper Lead developer BlueFinity International __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Tis the customers fault if they do not inform the supplier of any problems - until suppliers become psychic that is ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 22:47 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Ahhh. The old customer's fault perspective. I like that...I only wish I could use it myself. :-) Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 10:09 AM: Bill, BlueFinity pays very close attention to its customers. We pride ourselves on our responsiveness to customer issues and have many, many testimonials from our customer base that testify to this fact. If customers do not communicate issues to us how are we supposed to assist? David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 16:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity support team? On what basis are you assessing the cost of mv.NET as being very expensive? Compared to what else? What mv.NET process(es) are you classifying as a resource HOG? Again, to my knowledge, BlueFinity support has received absolutely nothing relating to this issue from your organization. What kind of data movement pattern is being performed at the store you mention? Did anyone at Inland Truck ask BlueFinity for assistance in diagnosing this issue? It seems to me as though a little more communication with BlueFinity support might me to the benefit of everyone here. As for U2.NET, I refer you to Tony Gravagno's post on this thread. David Cooper Lead developer BlueFinity International __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I do think Bill's issues may be legit, but he is not responding like someone who contacted the vendor and attempted to resolve the issue. He speaks like someone that saw some issues and considered them egregious but did not follow up to see if the problems were a black swan or white one just assumed the whole technology was problematic without investigation / speaking to the experts. If Bill wants to prove my assumption wrong by saying 'I contacted this person by email and this one by phone # and after a hour conversation or 6 emails no resolution occurred' I would feel like he really tried to see whether his issues are typical or edge case. I do think in an ideal world we never should have to contact vendors it should all just work, but the windows software 'stack' lends itself to lots of side effects that specific vendors will have seen with their software. I had a Postcript printer card that corrupted my hard disk (very bizarre side effect) and windows search scanning a constantly churning XML file on iTunes brought my 64-bit 16 gig of RAM quad core desktop to it's knees so yeah windows software stack things can get really ugly in certain combinations. We have a pretty complex millions of rows transfer/Import/Data Warehouse we are/were considering Bluefinity for and my co-wroker Angela and me and our U2 genius all worked with them in a pre-sales situation and they helped us explained many options and got a HUGE IMPORT working that showed they could handle very high volume and presented us with a few ways and scenarios their customers work with large data to give us some other options for our complex data warehouse loading scenarios. They do seem to know their product, have some successful customers and are excited to help make things work if given the data that things are not working whereas I have met with many vendors that just don't care. But that being said maybe Bill did contact people at Bluefinity and have bad experiences and just is not telling us and has a legit gripe because their tech support dropped the ball, but I don't think he has told us enough to come to the conclusion he tried and we ain't psychic either. Telling is what bad experience he had with their tech support in more concrete terms would make me feel like he did due diligence if I had to take sides then we could feel like Bluefinity let him down when he gave them some data about what does not work if he gives us some info about his contact with them. On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: Tis the customers fault if they do not inform the supplier of any problems - until suppliers become psychic that is ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 22:47 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Ahhh. The old customer's fault perspective. I like that...I only wish I could use it myself. :-) Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 10:09 AM: Bill, BlueFinity pays very close attention to its customers. We pride ourselves on our responsiveness to customer issues and have many, many testimonials from our customer base that testify to this fact. If customers do not communicate issues to us how are we supposed to assist? David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 16:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity support team? On what basis are you assessing the cost of mv.NET as being very expensive? Compared to what else? What mv.NET process(es) are you classifying as a resource HOG? Again, to my knowledge, BlueFinity support has received absolutely nothing relating to this issue from your organization. What kind of data movement pattern is being performed at the store you mention? Did anyone at Inland Truck ask BlueFinity for assistance in diagnosing this issue? It seems to me as though a little more communication with BlueFinity support might me to the benefit of everyone here. As for U2.NET, I refer you to Tony Gravagno's post on this thread. David Cooper Lead developer BlueFinity International __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Charles: Firstly, I never complained in this forum. I only asked who's using mv.NET, U2.NET, why, are there issues, have they moved from one to another, and why. I thought I'd get some honest feedback on these two closely related products. I had no intention of starting anything, just wanted some plain and simple thoughts and comments. Secondly, whatever issues I ever had with a vendor, be they BlueFinity or anyone else, I always communicate and work with them; that goes without saying. Thirdly, I was poking fun at David's email because I often find myself in the same boat as he describes and even though it'd be nice to blame someone once in awhile, this never seems to resolve anything (the point of the poke). :-) That said, I can now get back to reading my Viagra email. :-) Bill Charles Carroll said the following on 8/3/2010 4:18 PM: I do think Bill's issues may be legit, but he is not responding like someone who contacted the vendor and attempted to resolve the issue. He speaks like someone that saw some issues and considered them egregious but did not follow up to see if the problems were a black swan or white one just assumed the whole technology was problematic without investigation / speaking to the experts. If Bill wants to prove my assumption wrong by saying 'I contacted this person by email and this one by phone # and after a hour conversation or 6 emails no resolution occurred' I would feel like he really tried to see whether his issues are typical or edge case. I do think in an ideal world we never should have to contact vendors it should all just work, but the windows software 'stack' lends itself to lots of side effects that specific vendors will have seen with their software. I had a Postcript printer card that corrupted my hard disk (very bizarre side effect) and windows search scanning a constantly churning XML file on iTunes brought my 64-bit 16 gig of RAM quad core desktop to it's knees so yeah windows software stack things can get really ugly in certain combinations. We have a pretty complex millions of rows transfer/Import/Data Warehouse we are/were considering Bluefinity for and my co-wroker Angela and me and our U2 genius all worked with them in a pre-sales situation and they helped us explained many options and got a HUGE IMPORT working that showed they could handle very high volume and presented us with a few ways and scenarios their customers work with large data to give us some other options for our complex data warehouse loading scenarios. They do seem to know their product, have some successful customers and are excited to help make things work if given the data that things are not working whereas I have met with many vendors that just don't care. But that being said maybe Bill did contact people at Bluefinity and have bad experiences and just is not telling us and has a legit gripe because their tech support dropped the ball, but I don't think he has told us enough to come to the conclusion he tried and we ain't psychic either. Telling is what bad experience he had with their tech support in more concrete terms would make me feel like he did due diligence if I had to take sides then we could feel like Bluefinity let him down when he gave them some data about what does not work if he gives us some info about his contact with them. On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Symeon Breensyme...@gmail.com wrote: Tis the customers fault if they do not inform the supplier of any problems - until suppliers become psychic that is ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 22:47 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Ahhh. The old customer's fault perspective. I like that...I only wish I could use it myself. :-) Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 10:09 AM: Bill, BlueFinity pays very close attention to its customers. We pride ourselves on our responsiveness to customer issues and have many, many testimonials from our customer base that testify to this fact. If customers do not communicate issues to us how are we supposed to assist? David -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 03 August 2010 16:56 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET David: If you're astonished, you may want to pay more attention to your customers. Bill David Cooper (Support#2) said the following on 8/3/2010 1:34 AM: Charlie, I am, to put it mildly, absolutely astonished to read your comments about mv.NET. Have you posted this feedback to the Bluefinity
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
I hope the turn this thread has taken can be straightened out. Bill Haskett (Advantos Software) is a valued client of Nebula RD, and we also happen to be good friends. Nebula provides and supports his mv.NET software, and we're in fairly frequent contact. I think Bill made a harmless inquiry and the thread went off on an unfortunate tangent. I've exchanged notes with him. We're on the same page, as always. BlueFinity has also been in contact with him, just to make sure they're being properly represented by (us) their channel partners. :) I don't mind Bill asking about other offerings. That's just pragmatic, professional, and good business. I'm always considering alternatives for specific environments as well, because my business is about providing solutions, not products. We all need to do this. In this market, it's unfortunate, but (with the exception of U2 itself and a few other community forums) people just don't talk about the software they use. That gives the impression that no one is using the tools. I really wish we'd see more enthusiasm for these products because it would help us all to grow in our understanding of the depth of the tools. The mv.NET forum gets no hits, in part because everyone gets their answers from their sales/support people. The same goes for DesignBais, UO.NET, QMClient, Viságe, FlashCONNECT, and many other products. Maybe high quality software and excellent support serve as a form of anti-marketing? :) C'est la vie. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Hi Tony, There's an MV.NET forum? News to me. Tell me how to access it and I will definitely check it out. The more I can learn, the better, and these forums are a great source of knowledge from the users themselves. As I said earlier, I'm not working directly with MV.NET, one of our programmers is (and a damn fine programmer he is, too). I was passing along what I've gotten from him. If we can get info that will make his job easier and add to his knowledge, then this whole thing can be productive. I really didn't intend to start a war, but there's definitely been some lively discussion, and that's usually a good thing (at least I hope so). My apologies to anyone I have offended. If you just disagree with me, and weren't offended, that's OK. I'm a big boy and I can take it ;^). Best regards, Charlie Noah On 08-03-2010 7:51 PM, Tony Gravagno wrote: I hope the turn this thread has taken can be straightened out. Bill Haskett (Advantos Software) is a valued client of Nebula RD, and we also happen to be good friends. Nebula provides and supports his mv.NET software, and we're in fairly frequent contact. I think Bill made a harmless inquiry and the thread went off on an unfortunate tangent. I've exchanged notes with him. We're on the same page, as always. BlueFinity has also been in contact with him, just to make sure they're being properly represented by (us) their channel partners. :) I don't mind Bill asking about other offerings. That's just pragmatic, professional, and good business. I'm always considering alternatives for specific environments as well, because my business is about providing solutions, not products. We all need to do this. In this market, it's unfortunate, but (with the exception of U2 itself and a few other community forums) people just don't talk about the software they use. That gives the impression that no one is using the tools. I really wish we'd see more enthusiasm for these products because it would help us all to grow in our understanding of the depth of the tools. The mv.NET forum gets no hits, in part because everyone gets their answers from their sales/support people. The same goes for DesignBais, UO.NET, QMClient, Viságe, FlashCONNECT, and many other products. Maybe high quality software and excellent support serve as a form of anti-marketing? :) C'est la vie. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
From: Charlie Noah There's an MV.NET forum? News to me. Tell me how to access it and I will definitely check it out. The more I can learn, the better As I said earlier, I'm not working directly with MV.NET, one of our programmers is (and a damn fine programmer he is, too). I was passing along what I've gotten from him. If we can get info that will make his job easier and add to his knowledge, then this whole thing can be productive. Respectfully, my friend, please contact your mv.NET _value-add_ reseller and give them the opportunity to answer your questions about the software, performance, the forum, etc. I think that issue is what prompted the confusion in this thread. Without trying to be too competitive here, this is exactly the sort of thing that differentiates resellers, and I try to make sure my company excels in this area. Now I need to sit back and reconcile that statement with the fact that it was my client who started this thread. Hey, gotta be real. ;) Regards, Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
Bill, We're just getting into MV.NET with Jbase, using one pad PC running a shop bay scheduling system. We are finding it very expensive, difficult to work with and a resource HOG. One session took as much bandwidth as the entire store it's being used at normally takes - one of our bigger stores, so that's considerable. I'm not really involved with it, thank God, but I'm seeing the fallout. I don't know anything about U2.NET. Regards, Charlie Noah Inland Truck Parts Company On 08-02-2010 4:32 PM, Bill Haskett wrote: Does anyone use mv.NET? Do you have any problems; stability, connectivity, licensing, etc? Is U2.NET a good substitute? I understand they re-wrote the licensing. What is the U2.NET cost? Does anyone use U2.NET? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET
(People offended by discussion of products by those who sell those products should feel free to delete such commentary. My opinion of software that I use does not get invalidated when I take the next step to eat my own dogfood and sell and support software that I like.) From: Bill Haskett Does anyone use mv.NET? Do you have any problems; stability, connectivity, licensing, etc? A lot of companies do use mv.NET - they can respond here for themselves if they wish. Personally I use it every day for all MV development, and my decision to do so is constantly re-affirmed when I think of the tools I was using in the past. BlueFinity continues to be an excellent business partner and my decision to sell mv.NET as a part of our overall services and solutions offering is also continually reaffirmed. Is U2.NET a good substitute? I understand they re-wrote the licensing. What is the U2.NET cost? Does anyone use U2.NET? At the risk of sounding like I'm disparaging a competing offering, here is my understanding of U2.NET. Corrections are welcome: 1) U2.NET is essentially an old version of mv.NET (a fork). A license to the source was purchased by IBM from BlueFinity. It's essentially v3.2.x (?) frozen in time. 2) It has not progressed in sync with mv.NET to support new features like Solution Objects (code generation of strongly-typed business classes) or the new extended support for Silverlight. No license was purchased by IBM/Rocket for ongoing enhancements or fixes from BlueFinity. 3) Where the same mv.NET software can be used across almost all Pick/MV platforms, U2.NET hase been restricted to operating only with U2. 4) I originally thought and hoped that it would be provided free to the U2 client base. I really wanted to use U2.NET as an alternative to UO.NET and mv.NET for sites where it was better suited. But to my surprise this severely and intentionally limited product (in current features and its future) is being sold to U2 sites at a price comparable to mv.NET itself. I really don't understand what was on their minds when they did all of this but I welcome some encouragement to reconsider using U2.NET in the future. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET [AD]
Hi Bill, [AD] There is another ADO.NET option available to you, which you may not be aware of, which is our FusionWare Direct ADO.NET provider. Information on this option is available at http://www.fwic.net. Our customers get excellent stability and performance from our direct product line, but it is NOT free. [/AD] -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:33 PM To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] mv.NET and U2.NET Does anyone use mv.NET? Do you have any problems; stability, connectivity, licensing, etc? Is U2.NET a good substitute? I understand they re-wrote the licensing. What is the U2.NET cost? Does anyone use U2.NET? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
