Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On 09/02/2008 Conrad Knauer wrote: Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?' I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu. Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository) Other people mentioned that its a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: it was barely working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop) what kind of system do you have? And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is targeting? The System Requirements listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must be below what most people use Ubuntu on... CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I don't know about the average computer, but it probably varies quite a bit. I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately slowly but easily survivable. Xubuntu runs decently. I'm a bit of a speed freak though, so I installed the core bits from the alternate cd and built a custom fluxbox setup from there. I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though. Just my 2 cents On 2/9/08, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu. Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository) Other people mentioned that its a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: it was barely working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop) what kind of system do you have? And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is targeting? The System Requirements listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must be below what most people use Ubuntu on... CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Mine is a ThinkPad T40. 1.5Ghz CPU, ATI Radeon 7500 (32mb ram, open-source radeon driver). I am using Miro's repository, so it is the latest version. That said, I think it would be great if we advertised it on the website (those screenshots could use some updating too, btw). On Feb 9, 2008 12:54 PM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 9, 2008 4:29 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally love miro but can't still recommend it to my friends since it really crashes a lot on ubuntu. Including such an application on the default cd would,in my opinion, be not-so-good publicity for ubuntu. Out of curiosity, what version are you using? (0.9.8 from gutsy or the current 1.1.2 from Miro's repository) Other people mentioned that its a bit of a resource hog (Vadim Peretokin wrote: it was barely working on my 1.5Ghz, 512ram laptop) what kind of system do you have? And, generally speaking, what's the 'average computer' Ubuntu is targeting? The System Requirements listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements must be below what most people use Ubuntu on... CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote: I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately slowly but easily survivable. ... I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though. 1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB of memory. Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the open-source one) rather than the slow processor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I've done it on 192MB. It wasn't pretty (mostly because the open source ATI drivers are the only thing that supports the Rage II, and only at 800x600 when the card can do up to 102x768seriously, Ubuntu was *not* meant for 800x600 systems), but it was functional. That one's around 300MHz, I think. It's a Pentium 2. On Feb 9, 2008 3:31 PM, Evan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 700Mhz, 500Mhz? OK, I cede! Apparently my 10-year old desktop is one of the faster computers around :P It does look like 256MB ram is the lowest you'll see running vanilla Ubuntu though. My setup only takes 50MB on a fresh boot, but I know that vanilla Ubuntu takes around 150MB, so including Miro would significantly boost the system requirements. Just for kicks, I downloaded and installed the latest version from the miro repos (1.1.2). Upon running, it crashed because I don't have firefox installed (opera is faster). I'll install firefox and get back on how well it works, but this is something that should be fixed in the packaging: miro depends on firefox. On 2/9/08, Greg K Nicholson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote: I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately slowly but easily survivable. ... I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though. 1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB of memory. Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the open-source one) rather than the slow processor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
700Mhz, 500Mhz? OK, I cede! Apparently my 10-year old desktop is one of the faster computers around :P It does look like 256MB ram is the lowest you'll see running vanilla Ubuntu though. My setup only takes 50MB on a fresh boot, but I know that vanilla Ubuntu takes around 150MB, so including Miro would significantly boost the system requirements. Just for kicks, I downloaded and installed the latest version from the miro repos (1.1.2). Upon running, it crashed because I don't have firefox installed (opera is faster). I'll install firefox and get back on how well it works, but this is something that should be fixed in the packaging: miro depends on firefox. On 2/9/08, Greg K Nicholson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 13:09 -0500, Evan wrote: I'm typing this on a P3 1Ghz with 256MB of ram. Ubuntu runs moderately slowly but easily survivable. ... I'd say that this is about the lowest-end pc you'll find normal Ubuntu installed on though. 1 GHz? Luxury! I run Ubuntu on a ~700-MHz Athlon, albeit with 376.5 MB of memory. Miro doesn't work, but I think that's the dodgy Nvidia driver (the open-source one) rather than the slow processor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Miro starts up with about 35MB of ram, and maxes out around 100MB, but only after downloading and watching a lot of stuff, and browsing many channels. When it starts for the first time, and you point it to any videos you already have on disk, it generates thumbnails for every one. This process is extremely slow (about 10 seconds of 100% cpu for one thumbnail on my PC) and kicks ram usage up a good 50MB, but once all the thumbnails have been generated, miro is actually quite snappy, and i haven't had any real problems with it. After getting it set up, it doesn't use any more resources than Firefox, so it wouldn't really raise the system requirements, however it uses a ton of bandwith, and is fairly large. My thought is to include it in the main repo, but not on the CD. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Conrad Knauer wrote: Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0 milestone http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/ I note that its getting praise from the press http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/ I've used it in the past and its quite interesting. ... It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract people to Ubuntu. If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1? Miro is available in Ubuntu 7.10, and Miro 1.0 is currently in the hardy repositories. -- Emmet HIKORY -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Miro (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Feb 9, 2008 12:55 AM, Emmet Hikory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It certainly sounds like the sort of 'killer app' that would attract people to Ubuntu. If Miro can't be added to Hardy, would it be possible for Hardy+1? Miro is available in Ubuntu 7.10, and Miro 1.0 is currently in the hardy repositories. Apologies; I meant to ask: 'If Miro can't be added to the default Hardy install (e.g. added to ubuntu-desktop), would it be possible for Hardy+1?' CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
What about the menu button though? Who ever uses that? It does the same thing as right-clicking all the time, so it's kinda pointless. People using a keyboard and not a mouse use the menu key. I have the right Windows key set as Compose as it doesn't seem to do anything else. (Amarok's global shortcuts make use of the left Windows key.) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 07:52 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. I like setting the CapsLock to be the compose key, since I never intentionally press the CapsLock... which raises the question: which key should be set to be the compose key? Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
I prefer the left win key or 'power' key myself. AFAIK it isn't used for anything else. The problem with CapsLock is that some people will try using it for it's original purpose and get confused. On Jan 7, 2008 9:26 AM, Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 07:52 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. I like setting the CapsLock to be the compose key, since I never intentionally press the CapsLock... which raises the question: which key should be set to be the compose key? Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 09:53 -0500, Evan wrote: I prefer the left win key or 'power' key myself. AFAIK it isn't used for anything else. The problem with CapsLock is that some people will try using it for it's original purpose and get confused. Well, that was kinda my point: unless you've got an actual Compose key on your keyboard, there's no good default. mike On Jan 7, 2008 9:26 AM, Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 07:52 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. I like setting the CapsLock to be the compose key, since I never intentionally press the CapsLock... which raises the question: which key should be set to be the compose key? Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Jan 7, 2008 9:26 AM, Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like setting the CapsLock to be the compose key, since I never intentionally press the CapsLock... which raises the question: which key should be set to be the compose key? I'd end up confused that it's not escape (remapped for vim), and I think the Emacs users would be confused that it's not control :P What about the menu button though? Who ever uses that? It does the same thing as right-clicking all the time, so it's kinda pointless. -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 01:12 -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but all you have to do, if you're using a US English keyboard and want to type special characters, is enable US English International with Dead Keys in the keyboard settings, then add the keyboard switcher applet to your panel. If you click on it, it goes to international mode. AltGr (the right alt) + n gets ñ, AltGr+a gets á, AltGr+e gets é, AltGr+s gets ß, AltGr+u gets ú...and if you want ü you hit shift+ before typing the u (to get a plain , hit AltGr while you press it). Hello ! I may also be missing something, but the compose key is not handled the same way in GNOME (there is a menu in the Keyboard options) and Xfce (you have to edit xorg.conf). I do not know about KDE or other DEs. So it looks a little difficult to have a default setting. Once again, this may be a moot point if there is a global environment variable that I missed :) Cheers, Isabelle. On Jan 4, 2008 6:52 PM, Joel Bryan Juliano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- bapoumba -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
I second this. It's especially useful for those in Canada who prefer English but type a lot in French. On Jan 4, 2008 6:52 PM, Joel Bryan Juliano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Maybe I'm missing something, but all you have to do, if you're using a US English keyboard and want to type special characters, is enable US English International with Dead Keys in the keyboard settings, then add the keyboard switcher applet to your panel. If you click on it, it goes to international mode. AltGr (the right alt) + n gets ñ, AltGr+a gets á, AltGr+e gets é, AltGr+s gets ß, AltGr+u gets ú...and if you want ü you hit shift+ before typing the u (to get a plain , hit AltGr while you press it). On Jan 4, 2008 6:52 PM, Joel Bryan Juliano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will there be a chance for compose key be assigned and enabled by default? Since Ubuntu include and support many languages, I think it will be very useful to enable this feature as well, to make it easily available. Example usage are ñ (enye) for Piñata, é in Beyoncé, Café, José, Pérez and Pokémon. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Will PulseAudio be in Hardy? (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 10:36:18AM +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: I think PulseAudio can save every user great amount of trouble regarding sound issues, and bad bad esd. I hope PulseAudio get included in Hardy as default. It already is. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Will PulseAudio be in Hardy? (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I think PulseAudio can save every user great amount of trouble regarding sound issues, and bad bad esd. I hope PulseAudio get included in Hardy as default. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Will PulseAudio be in Hardy? (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 10:36 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: I think PulseAudio can save every user great amount of trouble regarding sound issues, and bad bad esd. I hope PulseAudio get included in Hardy as default. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cleanup-audio-jumble signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Markus Hitter wrote: Am 13.12.2007 um 08:41 schrieb Mackenzie Morgan: Until CD drives go the way of 5.25 floppy drives, I think we need to keep install CDs around. Making DVD isos with more stuff available is fine, but the main part of the distro should fit on a CD. What about a feature CD? I mean, one live CD with the basics and a few showcase apps (OpenOffice, Firefox, Evolution, etc.) and another one with more specialized applications. There could even exist different feature CDs for developers (working gcc, Eclipse, GNUstep, ...), entertainment (Photo editing, video cutting, ...) and others. Doesn't this sort of sound like distribution variants (ie. Ubuntu Studio) or Synaptic-Edit-Mark Packages by Task? At what point would creating several CDs cease to represent a single Ubuntu distribution? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, it just seems like there is some overlap. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 02:36 -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: So let's use that as a dividing line; let's keep the 32-bit x86 disks as CDs, BUT... let's switch the 64-bit disks to DVDs. It's not uncommon for some servers to come with just a CD ROM drive (I manage a Dell PowerEdge running 64-bit dapper in such a configuration). For example, in its base configuration, the Dell SC440 is still being sold with a 48X CD-ROM Drive. These are just the machines on which users may wish to install Ubuntu's amd64 architecture. CK -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
But server install and desktop install are really different. The server install disk wouldn't need to have even half of what the regular install disk has because you don't need any of that GUI junk on a server. On Dec 13, 2007 3:51 AM, Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 02:36 -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: So let's use that as a dividing line; let's keep the 32-bit x86 disks as CDs, BUT... let's switch the 64-bit disks to DVDs. It's not uncommon for some servers to come with just a CD ROM drive (I manage a Dell PowerEdge running 64-bit dapper in such a configuration). For example, in its base configuration, the Dell SC440 is still being sold with a 48X CD-ROM Drive. These are just the machines on which users may wish to install Ubuntu's amd64 architecture. CK -- Michael R. Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/demiri.head.wedding -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
It makes me think more of those add-on packs or booster packs...whatever they call them...with video games. You know, there's The Sims and then you add on Vacation and Hot Date and Makin' Magic and whatever else they had? On Dec 13, 2007 3:46 AM, Blaise Alleyne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Markus Hitter wrote: Am 13.12.2007 um 08:41 schrieb Mackenzie Morgan: Until CD drives go the way of 5.25 floppy drives, I think we need to keep install CDs around. Making DVD isos with more stuff available is fine, but the main part of the distro should fit on a CD. What about a feature CD? I mean, one live CD with the basics and a few showcase apps (OpenOffice, Firefox, Evolution, etc.) and another one with more specialized applications. There could even exist different feature CDs for developers (working gcc, Eclipse, GNUstep, ...), entertainment (Photo editing, video cutting, ...) and others. Doesn't this sort of sound like distribution variants (ie. Ubuntu Studio) or Synaptic-Edit-Mark Packages by Task? At what point would creating several CDs cease to represent a single Ubuntu distribution? Not that I'm opposed to the idea, it just seems like there is some overlap. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Dec 13, 2007 2:36 AM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the 32-bit CDs, let's have a fully functional install on a single CD. We can freeze the apps at roughly the current set and any new ones can be put in an 'ubuntu-extras' metapackage. 32-bit users can install the package (by themselves or by prompt at installation if they have a working network connection), but 64-bit users will have it installed by default from the DVD. This will allow a nice progression from XP-era 32-bit processor computers to a new 64-bit era (which hopefully will be software libre based :) Ubuntu development won't be constrained to 700 MB and we can have lots of 'WinFOSS' on the DVDs. Alternate package name suggestions: rename ubuntu-desktop to ubuntu-desktop-base or some such and be a dependency of 'ubuntu-extras' which could be called ubuntu-desktop-full or some such. 32-bit users who want the full install on a single disk could of course download a 32-bit DVD as is now being produced. Network bandwidth should become less of an issue as time goes on, so installing ubuntu-desktop-full + dependencies via net for 32-bit users shouldn't present too big of an issue so long as the devels don't go nuts and try to cram everything into it at once ;) An incremental size increase limit of maybe 300 MB more for the first release under this system and 100 MB per release afterwards should be considered so as to transition a bit and prevent too much bloat... Just think how nice it would be to include things like IcedTea and Miro and a couple dozen other spiffy cool apps as part of a DVD-based 64-bit release and yet know that for the 'long tail' of supportable hardware that the famous 32-bit CD will be there if needed. CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Chris Jones wrote: -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:06:18 -0600 From: Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) To: Ubuntu Developer Discussion Mailing List ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hmm... this ended up in sounder; should be in ubuntu-devel-discuss too. CK On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD size so that we can fit more things on the CD [...] There are various other targets of opportunity [...] that we'll be looking into as well. -- Why is there so much focus on keeping the Ubuntu installer to the very limited size of a CD-R ISO? I mean, this modern world of computing we live in, the 700MB capacity of a CD-R isn't much to play around with really. Do you mean the Western world? With Western world computers and Western world bandwidth? I think sooner or later, Ubuntu is going to grow beyond what's possible to squeez onto a 700MB iso and be forced to adopt the benefits of DVD5 storage. Maybe that time is approaching quicker than expected by some. Just my 2 cents. -- Gaele Strootman http://gaele.guruburu.com http://www.guruburu.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 18:51 -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 2:36 PM, Kevin Fries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So going the other way from removing Mono, are there any mono-based libre software apps in the repos you'd like to see moved onto the default desktop? Not specifically. What I was really referencing was more of a lets start building more apps with Mono that are Windows ports type of argument. But as some have correctly pointed out, that may be a bit tricky given that Linux has supposedly violated every patent that Microsoft has ever owned, and several they have not even written yet, lol. I feel that Mono is that safe haven you give Windows developers. That carrot to encourage them to take that .NET app, and while not breaking .NET capabilities, also allows them to expand their audience. For that reason alone, I would like to see the Linux community put more apps on Mono. The more Windows apps that can easily convert to Linux compatibility, the better for Linux users, the Linux community in general and Ubuntu in specific. Much better idea in the long run than adding a bunch of geek apps like gParted and VIM. -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Hi, Chris Jones [2007-12-13 15:23 +1000]: Why is there so much focus on keeping the Ubuntu installer to the very limited size of a CD-R ISO? I think this is one of Ubuntu's greatest features: - DVD burners still comparatively rare, especially in the non-western world - an even higher issue is bandwidth: the bigger the installation isos are, the fewer people can download them - it encourages us to not bloat the CD too much by filling it with duplicated libraries, applications, etc. Keeping the default ubuntu installation lean and mean can only be a competitive advantage IMHO (just my personal feeling) Pitti -- Martin Pitthttp://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com Debian Developer http://www.debian.org -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Kevin Fries wrote: One idea that Debian has had for years, that I am surprised that Ubuntu did not follow -- especially with servers -- was the idea of the minimal install CD ( 50MB to fit on a mini-cd or flash stick) that was little more than a debootstrap install. Then everything was obtainable from the repositories. While I realize that could get ugly for the noobs that Ubuntu goes after if followed exactly... but what about a derivation off of it. Instead of leaving just a command line system, it installed a core system, then rebooted, upon first boot, it asked which U/K/X-buntu version you wanted, then retrieved that from the Apt repositories. Now CD capacity is unimportant. Isn't that starting to sound similar to the alternate CD that Ubuntu already has? I'm not sure that I fully understand either install CDs (Debian's, or the alternate from Ubuntu) but it sounds like there's a lot of overlap there. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
The alternate disk can install a full system or can do a server install which is just the base system. After a server install, you are dropped to a command-line-only system. On Dec 13, 2007 5:17 PM, Blaise Alleyne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Fries wrote: One idea that Debian has had for years, that I am surprised that Ubuntu did not follow -- especially with servers -- was the idea of the minimal install CD ( 50MB to fit on a mini-cd or flash stick) that was little more than a debootstrap install. Then everything was obtainable from the repositories. While I realize that could get ugly for the noobs that Ubuntu goes after if followed exactly... but what about a derivation off of it. Instead of leaving just a command line system, it installed a core system, then rebooted, upon first boot, it asked which U/K/X-buntu version you wanted, then retrieved that from the Apt repositories. Now CD capacity is unimportant. Isn't that starting to sound similar to the alternate CD that Ubuntu already has? I'm not sure that I fully understand either install CDs (Debian's, or the alternate from Ubuntu) but it sounds like there's a lot of overlap there. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I'm not sure I'd say Tomboy and Sticky Notes are for the same thing. Sticky notes are good for quick notes like call 555 666- about car and just plain suck for long notes. Tomboy, because of it's wiki style, is very useful for much longer, more detailed notes. Tomboy's use case is more along the lines of sitting in a class or business meeting and keeping good notes with references to other things previously discussed embedded within them, like a notebook. Sticky Notes' use case is more like...well, the stack of Post-It notes it emulates. On Dec 13, 2007 7:57 PM, Tony Yarusso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Tony Yarusso [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Dec 13, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know much about the technical details of Mono, but I can say this: a) I don't care about potential, maybe, vaguely insinuated patent threats - unless MS actually starts giving evidence, even discussing this is falling prey to the FUD, just like they want us to. b) F-Spot and Tomboy are great apps, and definitely helpful for a large number of users. Ignoring the issues of whether Mono is the best use of space, treated for their own merits they are worthy of default inclusion. c) Given our usual policy of shipping one application per task, dropping gThumb and Sticky Notes from the default installation probably makes sense, and perhaps this will help with some part of the space concerns. Additionally, Scribus and Inkscape are also pretty cool, but adding a Qt dependency to a Gnome install makes no sense. Now, if Kubuntu wants to look at these that might be a decent idea, and could provide a unique attraction to the Kubuntu member of the Ubuntu family. Finally, I would very much like to see two things included by default, and hope that space can be found on the CD for them: 1.) Seahorse - security is important, and the easier we make it, the more people will actually bother to do it 2.) Conduit - this seems like the way for things to go overall; the more integration and synchronization the desktop can get with _everything_, the better. (I should also note at this point that if we're going to keep shipping Rhythmbox by default, someone should really see to it that it gets two-way transfer support for iPods included before the next release - a feature included in Exaile and Banshee already, and which I've heard rumored is available in CVS already.) -- Tony Yarusso http://blog.tonyyarusso.com/ -- Tony Yarusso http://blog.tonyyarusso.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Mackenzie Morgan Linux User #432169 ACM Member #3445683 http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com -my blog of Ubuntu stuff apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I'm not sure about Conduit. It's definitely not something I would use, though I can see its usefulness for others (same way I feel about F-Spot). It makes me think of that online GNOME project, which seems to be really just a lot of hooks into social networking sites. While the 15-30 crowd might be very into social networking, I'm thinking only a subset of them would use an auto-sync program for it. Anyone outside that range would probably think it's pretty useless. It looks like it can act as a sort of GUI for network-based rsync backups, but I really can't see that being something the average desktop user even thinks of. If the average desktop user thinks of backing up, it's to CDs or DVDs or maybe the portable hard drive on the desk, but probably not over a network to an offsite location. While a big part of it is support for web apps like Flickr, Box.net, Facebook etc you have totally missed some of the other things the team are working on. For example: * syncing your contacts, tomboy notes and F-spot images between PCs. (Avahi based discovery) * syncing to mobile devices, particularly windows mobile and blackberry are under active development as part of an /ubuntu orientanted/ sync spec * syncing (and converting on the fly) media files * it can autosync - so when your tomboy notes are updated it can automatically push them to other pcs, mobile devices (including ipods!) and web apps. http://www.conduit-project.org/wiki/Goals http://www.conduit-project.org/wiki/Screenshots And (low quality) http://unrouted.co.uk/2007/06/10/conduit-network-sync/ By HH Conduit will have a new device tool for quick and easy configuration of devices as you plug them in. New phone? Where do you want to sync to? And that is just Conduit as an application, not Conduit as a dbus service. John (Yeah, i'm biased as heck..) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Hmm... this ended up in sounder; should be in ubuntu-devel-discuss too. CK On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD size so that we can fit more things on the CD [...] There are various other targets of opportunity [...] that we'll be looking into as well. OK, at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, I note the suggestion on http://lost-midnight.blogspot.com/2007/12/remove-mono-dependancy-from-ubuntu.html --- There has been a wide range of discussion on the subject of Mono and its inclusion in Ubuntu by default. Some people believe that Mono may infringe on Microsoft patents while others believe that it is useful to include. Personally, I have no idea about whether Mono does infringe on Microsoft patents, but I see other reasons why Ubuntu should remove it. Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO download is 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that could be used for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there are just two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo manager) and Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other programs which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME sticky notes. In my opinion, these two applications function well enough to warrant the removal of Mono dependent programs. --- You might want to fact-check the disk space claim, but if that's the case, its a good point totally irrespective of the 'Java Trap' (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html) type scenarios I've read (http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono) about Mono. Sincerely, Conrad Knauer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Am Mittwoch, den 12.12.2007, 05:06 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: Mono by default takes 48MB of space on the CD. The ISO download is 690+ MB. Therefore, it is taking up valuable space that could be used for a whole host of other things. Also, for that 48MB, there are just two applications which use Mono. These are F-spot (photo manager) and Tomboy (note application). Ubuntu also includes two other programs which do a similar job, gThumb (photo manager) and GNOME sticky notes. In my opinion, these two applications function well enough to warrant the removal of Mono dependent programs. What is your data migration model? You cannot replace software in each release. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 12:58 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. Users who want any of these applications can get them from the repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than just nice sticky notes and Flicker integration. They get these features in Windows, if we want to reasonably expect to get users to switch over, we need to supply them also. This goes to user expectations. Windows and Mac are the front runners, We need our best foot forward to compete with iPhoto. A better program in the repositories means nothing when you pop that CD in to show the end user they can have the same capabilities with Ubuntu than they can in Windows or Mac. As for me, given the programs that are there, and the ones that will make hesitant users switch, the 60MB must be sacrificed. Putting lesser programs on the disk to add in what? Multimedia is so mainstream that hardware manufacturers are making it available from an otherwise turned off machine. The only think that brings more bling would be codecs, and that is not going to happen for licensing reasons. So, I could not agree with you assertions more. Programs that integrate better with more features are far more important that number of features. I would rather see a second disk than to back off on these features. And I feel a second disk is a huge mistake. Although I didn't see you mentioning that F-Spots flicker integration will be removed and moved into Conduit (which we don't include by default) so you argument does loose some merit with the way things are going. And if we should be or not was not the question. I have no problem with the conduit. But to install a lesser program to get more software is a DSL type decision. That is what they do best, not us. We need to keep everything about providing a highly usable desktop with the features people expect. After iPhoto, they expect more than gThumb. They expect what F-Spot brings. Like I said, the users have already spoken on this exhaustively in both the forums and Launchpad. My opinion seems to be the overwhelmingly popular one. Quality over quantity... That is what makes Ubuntu the best distro. I would also be curious as to which programs you would choose to include to replace that 60MB? -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Martin Owens escreveu: Users who want any of these applications can get them from the repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than just nice sticky notes and Flicker intergration. Well, if I had to choose, I would vote for the removal and use this space to include more language packs so people who does not use English can have their languages installed without having to be connect to the internet. Specially useful where internet access is not easy/cheap. []s Adilson. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 13, 2007 1:58 AM, Martin Owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: F-Spot and gThumb are very similar in capabilities on local images. Though F-Spot's interface is a little cleaner. But the big difference comes in Web2.0 integration. GThumb has none, while F-Spot integrates with Flickr, Picasa, etc. Hands down, this is what end users expect, and it is gThumbs that needs to be eliminated. Users who want any of these applications can get them from the repositories; just because you like the applications doesn't make them good for inclusion by default. The argument seems to be that we should sacrifice 60MB of CD space for a handful of extra features. The space instead could be used to have many more user friendly features than just nice sticky notes and Flicker intergration. This is one of the reason why Linux in general only appeal to geeks, and why Windows is still the primary OS of choice for non-geeks. Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch to Linux. This move is headed in a backward direction, and will not provide any solution to solve bug #1, piracy, poor software quality and many other proprietary-model related problems. Mono, is a direct invitation for Microsoft Windows developers to jump in the Linux development scene, to provide more innovations, solutions and man-power. As for Tomboy vs GNOME sticky notes, this one is even more obvious. Sticky notes needs to go away. GNOME no longer considers it part of the base suite of packages, and has instead worked with Tomboy on tighter and tighter integration. Tomboy can fire links to open on your browser or Nautulus, fire alarms as reminders, and integrates with Evolution. Sticky notes does none of that. Notes are not a core application, I haven't the faintest idea why we include any notes app at all. Some people may find them useful but they can quite easily install this extra application. I realize the original argument was about the size of Mono. And that is a legitimate argument. But lets also realize functionality and integration needs to be maximized in order to make this distro easy for the noobs it is aimed at. We already have a distro out there that makes sacrifices of number of packages over space... its called DSL. I think some of these arguments are a little biased; I feel like some of the developers are championing Mono as a principle rather than on technical merits. It's nice that they've invested all this time into learning CLI; But we shouldn't let our ego's run away with us. Mono is big, too big in fact to be reasonably included by default without being biased. I'll be happy to see a small light weight notes and photo application for inclusion. But at the moment these don't exist and we shouldn't be looking for these tiny features when we could be including much better things on the CD. Regards, Martin Owens -- Computer Science Honours and Scholar Student Cisco Certified Network Associate Microsoft Certified Professional Mayers-Briggs Personality Type: INFP GTK+, C, Perl, Python, Ruby, XML, XMLHTTPRequest, XHTML, JavaScript, POSIX Bash (Dash) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 12, 2007 1:37 PM, Joel Bryan Juliano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch to Linux. Just an aside, what do you think of Miro? (its got the 'Web 2.0' look and the 1.0 version is ~7MB decompressed; something I'd like to see in the next version of Ubuntu which could easily fit if the WinFOSS is removed, as has also been suggested...) CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? Sure thing: Inkscape, Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. I'm sure some of these things will sneak in, but it's not helpful for developers to have developed this odd, almost religious fascination with including every development library, of every bloated framework out there. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Hang on a second, This is one of the reason why Linux in general only appeal to geeks, and why Windows is still the primary OS of choice for non-geeks. Tomboy and F-Spot are two most useful and innovative Linux applications in the desktop, removing them will give non-geeks no reason to switch to Linux. Your saying that computers users have a choice? I never thought they did, I always thought they were told what to use by their friends, co-workers and computer support that windows was the only thing going; not that (as it appears you feel) it's the best thing since sliced bread. This move is headed in a backward direction, and will not provide any solution to solve bug #1, piracy, poor software quality and many other proprietary-model related problems. We have plenty of great applications, I'd rather see though the base system solidified with good support for more hardware and more functional tools than a massive library for two accessory applications. The only thing you seem to be saying is that any software not installed by default will never be installed. Well if this software is as good and popular as you appear to be saying then people _will_ install it after the fact. Are we building an functional operating system or pandering to the lowest common denominator? Mono, is a direct invitation for Microsoft Windows developers to jump in the Linux development scene, to provide more innovations, solutions and man-power. Because microsoft windows developers are so thick that they need the libraries installed by default? That's not a very good argument for inclusion by default. We have mono, great. now lets not get carried away by filling our precious default cd space with it. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Use the carrot and back off on the whip by showing that they can tweak existing programs to gain mono But that doesn't require mono to be installed by default does it? we're not trying to prove a point by including this software are we? I hope not. Its about making the transition easier for the new user. Right, but the transition is made easier by increasing the default support in a number of areas, not little accessories that take up 10% of the CD. We could be doing so much more and yet instead of serving our users we choose to prove points and try and bribe windows developers with the promise of complete compatibility (fallacy imo) Your application suggestions falls on the category of specific people, we are not all IT's, Computer Scientists. Ah right yes, copy and paste is something only scientists use. firefox-adblock? why I only ever see that on geeky machines, I believe it comes with a heroes wallpaper even. burning cd's is a little more geeky but pgp? shouldn't we include the management of security features so we can build upon them later? hardware support is key and shouldn't be secondary, nor should the ability to open common files. I fail to see your Computer Scientists argument, I run a LoCo on the front lines and I see plenty of teachers, social workers and lawyers who want the kind of functionality I've mentioned. I'd also be damn cautious about the f-spot internet integration, not only is it being removed in future versions; but having support for speific websites without a standardised communication protocol is a lock-in creating bias and we shouldn't stand for that sort of thing. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 13, 2007 4:27 AM, Martin Owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you list some example of those things that would be nice there? Conduit, opensync, Glipper, firefox-adblock, rar-free, more languages, obex, gnome parition editor, audacity, gnomebaker, vim (real vim), PGP keys manager, open office draw, any kind of irc program, keep backup 2, graphics tablet integrations, any kind of webcam management software, cheese, devede, atlantik-gtk, compiz manager, start up manager, Storage Manager, schedual, Dohickey. It may be worth to you, but it's worthless for an average user who found F-Spot to be more useful to post his daughter's birthday photos in the Internet. Your application suggestions falls on the category of specific people, we are not all IT's, Computer Scientists. There are also writers, social workers, teachers, professors, psychologists, lawyers, counselors, etc. -- Computer Science Honours and Scholar Student Cisco Certified Network Associate Microsoft Certified Professional Mayers-Briggs Personality Type: INFP GTK+, C, Perl, Python, Ruby, XML, XMLHTTPRequest, XHTML, JavaScript, POSIX Bash (Dash) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 15:46 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could be a very popular addition. I'll have insist about the sync support, it's not a geeky endeavour; and most people avoid it because of the difficulty. It's a feature we could make better than other platforms, we have all the tools written already. Sync is definitely gray area (goes to my earlier quality over quantity argument). The problem is that I have yet to see a sync client that truly does it all. They all claim to, but reality is a bit more sketchy. Right now, I will settle for one that does most, reasonably... still waiting But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. But as you pointed out, we don't want to include things because it's good for developers, it's an operating system for human beings, not wintel geeks. I'm not sure where this fascination has come from that we need to include mono by default to encourage windows developers. All the developers I know from the windows world move into Linux by programming in python, c++ and java. Not through the .net framework. In fact shouldn't we be installing Eclipse if we're so focused on developers? You are talking tools, and those that are taking the effort to learn Linux. One of the areas where I think we can all do better is to encourage Wintel geeks to stop being hostile to Linux. Encourage the use of tools such as Wine and mono. Use the carrot and back off on the whip by showing that they can tweak existing programs to gain mono and Wine compatibility, and instantly grow their market without having to actually write for Linux. This then causes more of a crutch on mono, and extends the conversation to Wine. Which come to think about it, would be great to add to the base install. Its about making the transition easier for the new user. Two other programs that by the way also use the mono runtime are Beagle (ok stop laughing, I turn it off too), and gnome-rdp used to access Windows desktops. Less so in homes, but that is extremely useful in businesses, or more importantly... workers at home. Again, services that are built into Windows, so they should be represented in Linux so noobs can see that it can be done easily. The easier they see the transition, the more likely they will be to start the journey. -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
Kevin Fries wrote: I will even help you with one more I would like to see... Scribus. My mother uses this along with Inkscape for her scrap-booking (definitely not a geeky endeavor), and with a few tweaks to the descriptions, could be a very popular addition. I second that, but this adds a Qt dependency. But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers to extend their product to the Linux desktop. That would be a win for everybody but Microsoft, but that does not disappoint me so much. I guess you've read paranoid scenarios like this one: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono I'd rather hope that Mono stays an exception in the FLOSS world, only using it for IT that want to convert Windows software or that develop corporation-specific apps. Encouraging the use of Mono in GNOME and default Desktops is IMHO very dangerous until we have got certitudes about patents. Windows developers should better change their practices and philosophy. Though, I agree F-Spot is one of our killer apps, and that GThumb is not as user-friendly as we may expect. May we hope it evolves? It may be worth to care about it, since it has many nice features, and only lacks a few (UI for the most part, and Conduit will come). Cheers, Milan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
I'll have to answer some of these in the wrong order, and I've put it back on list since it's an important thread regardless. I for one am done with this conversation. You just don't seem to get it. I am not sure why you refuse to listen, but please, find another windmill OK? This is a discussion, not a preaching session. bullying, braying and ignoring what the other person is putting across don't make for good solutions. your angry because instead of meeting all of my objections with counter arguments your forced to sulk. If your going to involve yourself in discussions can you have the stamina to argue properly? Yes it does. It requires that the foundation be in place so these types of applications can flourish. Having programs already built on those foundations sends the message that the water is fine, come on in. No it doesn't, this is an obsession with attracting windows programmers who would be quite happy for their program to lean of non default mono dependencies. I feel your using this argument as a crutch in place of something of substance. I repeat that it is not the job of the default install to cater to developers. It's to serve ubuntu users. You are arguing some someone who is pissed off that their pet project was not included, and you worked so hard on it. Ah yes you noticed that, funny I've never tried to get it into the default install because 1) it's not ready (alpha) and 2) most of it will go into hal and you'll be including it anyway. I'm am glad you went fishing for excuses though, nice to be proven right. But joe sixpack expects the functionality to be there. You know I hate that term, it's so American. anyway, I find most of the users your talking about don't get a computer and decide to install ubuntu from the CD. more likely they are to have a friend of variable skill who knows something about computers to install it and anything else that joe uses. You are also confusing support simplicity with transition simplicity. I snipped this entire section, OK I'm more concerned with serving our existing user base than I am about attracting new users. This is where a lot of distros go wrong, they get obsessive about attracting new users and it leads to some unfortunate side effects. You remember what gimmicks are right? well don't let ubuntu be the linux for gimmicks. because all the developers care about is hauling new users in. If we look after our existing users by solving some of their real problems, new users will come of their own accord. That must be priority, nothing else. A very dangerous way to think, so black and white and yet so ferocious. I'm reminded at this point about how many of the developers on this list are either dealing with real deployments or spend time on ubuntu forums. They think your ignoring their problems. And wouldn't you just go and prove them right with tunnel vision comments like that. Kevin, I don't mind if your angry and in a sulk about this thread, you shouldn't be. nor should you expect everyone to agree to the same things. But we need to at least reach a point where we agree to disagree. We obviously have different focuses in both how we serve the public and the best ways to encourage participation. I'm quite happy to discuss all of these things with you. Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)
On Dec 12, 2007 2:36 PM, Kevin Fries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: any kind of webcam management software, cheese I'll give you Inkscape and webcam, but I think the rest such as addons, vim, irc, gnome partition editor, etc really do need to stay in the repos. I'm going to second cheese; its fun but is still a good UI if you want to take basic pics or vids w/o the silly filters. But there are better places to trim than mono. I personally would like to see more mono apps included by default to encourage Wintel developers to extend their product to the Linux desktop. So going the other way from removing Mono, are there any mono-based libre software apps in the repos you'd like to see moved onto the default desktop? CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:06:18 -0600 From: Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) To: Ubuntu Developer Discussion Mailing List ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hmm... this ended up in sounder; should be in ubuntu-devel-discuss too. CK On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD size so that we can fit more things on the CD [...] There are various other targets of opportunity [...] that we'll be looking into as well. -- Why is there so much focus on keeping the Ubuntu installer to the very limited size of a CD-R ISO? I mean, this modern world of computing we live in, the 700MB capacity of a CD-R isn't much to play around with really. I think sooner or later, Ubuntu is going to grow beyond what's possible to squeez onto a 700MB iso and be forced to adopt the benefits of DVD5 storage. Maybe that time is approaching quicker than expected by some. Just my 2 cents. -- Chris Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Chris Jones wrote: -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:06:18 -0600 From: Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?) To: Ubuntu Developer Discussion Mailing List ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hmm... this ended up in sounder; should be in ubuntu-devel-discuss too. CK On Nov 28, 2007 4:49 AM, Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are always looking for more ways to reduce CD size so that we can fit more things on the CD [...] There are various other targets of opportunity [...] that we'll be looking into as well. -- Why is there so much focus on keeping the Ubuntu installer to the very limited size of a CD-R ISO? I mean, this modern world of computing we live in, the 700MB capacity of a CD-R isn't much to play around with really. I think sooner or later, Ubuntu is going to grow beyond what's possible to squeez onto a 700MB iso and be forced to adopt the benefits of DVD5 storage. Maybe that time is approaching quicker than expected by some. Just my 2 cents. I think it's very valuable to have Ubuntu run off a Live CD as opposed to DVD. Most modern computers will have a DVD drive, but many older machines do not. One of the advantages of Ubuntu and GNU/Linux in general is that you don't need a new computer to reap all the benefits (unlike say, Windows Vista). Keeping the contents on a single CD makes it much easier to share, distribute and install for many people. Additional applications can also be downloaded from the repositories. I think there are some cases where you might want to breach that limit (I just finished burn a DVD for Ubuntu Studio, for example - 800 MB), but I think it's a good rule to try to stick to in general, IMHO. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Nov 14, 2007 3:19 AM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default Ubuntu setup. I was looking over my notes from the last month and I should have also suggested gui-apt-key or equivalent functionality be added to Synaptic. Removes the need for running novice-unfriendly commands like gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv 0C5A2783 gpg --export --armor 0C5A2783 | sudo apt-key add - (0C5A2783 is the Medibuntu key, BTW) CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Am Dienstag, den 20.11.2007, 04:11 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: On Nov 14, 2007 3:19 AM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default Ubuntu setup. I was looking over my notes from the last month and I should have also suggested gui-apt-key or equivalent functionality be added to Synaptic. Removes the need for running novice-unfriendly commands like gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv 0C5A2783 gpg --export --armor 0C5A2783 | sudo apt-key add - Please take a look at the already existing authentication tab of software sources (software-properties-gtk). Furthermore this should be made obsolete by the third-party-apt spec. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Nov 20, 2007 5:30 PM, Sebastian Heinlein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. you wrote a private mail. A! Reply-to strikes again :/ Thanks for letting me know; I will report to the list with your reply. CK Am Dienstag, den 20.11.2007, 16:20 -0600 schrieb Conrad Knauer: Furthermore this should be made obsolete by the third-party-apt spec. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt) Indeed, but will third-party-apt be ready in time for Hardy? Yes. P.S. you wrote a private mail. On Nov 20, 2007 4:20 PM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 20, 2007 7:24 AM, Sebastian Heinlein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default Ubuntu setup. I was looking over my notes from the last month and I should have also suggested gui-apt-key or equivalent functionality be added to Synaptic. Removes the need for running novice-unfriendly commands like gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv 0C5A2783 gpg --export --armor 0C5A2783 | sudo apt-key add - Please take a look at the already existing authentication tab of software sources (software-properties-gtk). Unless I am grossly mistaken, that only allows you to import a local key file, hence my suggestion for incorporating gui-apt-key into Synaptic (maybe a Download Key button on that same tab to run gui-apt-key) since gui-apt-key just requires that you just know the key number (a table of such can easily be made and posted somewhere, e.g. in the community documentation pages). Furthermore this should be made obsolete by the third-party-apt spec. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt) Indeed, but will third-party-apt be ready in time for Hardy? CK -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
Our miro packages need some major work. In the form of: - New Upstream, 1.0 - Some compilation reconsiderations I'm not specifically sure of the cause, but the repo version has some major issues, perhaps it was due to the lib boost incompatibilities of the last version, well now the code works with it natively (they even have their own gutsy repository). I was experiencing crashes and major slowdowns as the guide loaded, think waiting 10 minutes (on a more than capable system) for the main UI and the Guide to load, the gusty repo version from them, snappy and instant. So there is some inconsistencies there that we should look at... As far as Java, we *try* to push Iced Tea, the GPL Java implementation, If you notice when trying John's Azureus package with no java environments installed, it will attempt to install Iced Tea, rather than the OSS Friendly, but not FOSS JRE, iced tea for all intents and purposes works fine for use anyway, much unlike old implementations we pushed with Azureus which were... less than to be desired some times. And... yea It looks like you already talk about Iced Tea in the second post I not just saw... oh well, I'll leave it here, it's valuable information for anyone interested =] Back to the original point... I would totally say Miro would be a good candidate for Main.. It's not very large.. BUT it does have a java dependency... because of this I can almost guarantee it will not see the Install Disc for some time to come, even though Iced Tea is sure a movement, we're working with 700mb here, compression only does so much. On Nov 14, 2007 4:19 AM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default Ubuntu setup. My suggestion: Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0milestone http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/ I note that its getting praise from the press http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/ I've used it in the past and its quite interesting. CK P.S. I was looking at /usr/share/doc/sun-java6-jre/copyright and had a 'WTF? moment': --- This product is covered and controlled by U.S. Export Control laws and may be subject to the export or import laws in other countries. Nuclear, missile, chemical biological weapons or nuclear maritime end uses or end users, whether direct or indirect, are strictly prohibited. Export or reexport to countries subject to U.S. embargo or to entities identified on U.S. export exclusion lists, including, but not limited to, the denied persons and specially designated nationals lists is strictly prohibited. --- Apparently one cam made WMDs with it or something; no wonder its in multiverse! ;) Are we ever going to get some form of Java in Ubuntu by default I wonder? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Cheers, Bryan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: New Programs for Hardy?
On Nov 14, 2007 4:19 AM, Conrad Knauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default Ubuntu setup. I'd like to suggest aria2, a CLI download utility with resuming and segmented downloading. Supported protocols are HTTP/HTTPS/FTP/BitTorrent/Metalink. From what I understand, there will be official metalinks for Hardy ISOs. http://aria2.sourceforge.net/ -- (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ] )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
