Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
On 01/20/2013 04:04 AM, Robert Sneidar wrote: Sorry, I feel the need to vent, and maybe someone here has some advice they can give me when applying for jobs. First, I go to these job descriptions and see that they want someone with a bachelors in science, 5+ years experience, plus 3 or 4 advanced certifications, with experience in database development, html programming, C, C++, various scripting languages, Active Directory Management, Linux, Unix, Vsphere SAN, virtualization technologies like HyperV and VMWare, etc. etc. etc. And the lofty position I am applying for? Server maintenance! Really?? Server maintenance??? And then I see a line like this: Experience working with assembly languages such as HTML programming, MySQL, C, C , etc erm... pardon me... HTML, mySQL and C are not, you know of course, assembly language... and assembly language is, of course, you know... not plural. is what I want to email them and say. So now I am thinking that they give some nobody the task of typing up the job requirements, so he throws the entire IT gamut at his word processor (having googled some IT catch phrases first), and calls it a job well done. Meanwhile, poor me is looking at all this and wondering if I should even apply, knowing that to have all that under my belt would qualify me for the CTO position at Microsoft, IBM or Apple for crying out loud!!! Should I ignore such requirements and apply everywhere I can, or just skip such jobs because whoever is in charge there clearly does not know what he is doing? Bob Yup; that all seems a bit steep. I administered a server at the University of St Andrews on the basis of a BA in Philosophy and an MA in Applied Linguistcs; not knowing anything whatsoever about servers. I talked an awful lot of talk at the interview, and then, having got the job, shut myself in the cupboard with the server and a manual (not forgetting the thermos of coffee) and started learning how to do things. Of course a lot of those requirements may just be a way for the people advertising the jobs to avoid having to wade knee-deep through 10,000 application letters. Just GO FOR IT! OR . . . Set up something of your own. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
On 01/20/2013 04:41 AM, Potts Jeff wrote: When I was looking for a job back in the mid 90's I was at an interview where they wanted 2 years java experience. THe problem was Java was just getting out of beta and due to be released in a couple of months. I was stupefied. . . it was like my C++ experience wasn't good enough. I would have had to have been on the Java development team to have the experience they were looking for let alone understand that Java is just a dummies version of C++. I learned from then on that HR people are asses, And not only HR people . . . When I wanted to hire a co-teacher-cum-secretary at my schoolette here in Bulgaria I wrote down what I wanted; but, almost inevitably, the nature of what I required the teacher to do over the next 2 years changed, and she and I have had some fairly colourful exchanges as a result. As the current co-teacher-cum-secretary is due to leave in June this year (which is bad as she does a damn fine job), I am faced with 2 possible ways to advertise: 1. A highly detailed job description (which will probably be valueless as the job, buy its very nature, seems to keep changing), or 2. Needed, a general worker to do all sorts of unspecified stuff at the whim of a capricious employer; mindbogglingly high and varied qualifications required. And, guess what; I will be running around with a large pair of donkey's ears come-what-may! The only possible difference is that I know I'll look like a prize what-d'ye-call-it fairly soon after get a new employee, and will be prepared to sit down over a cup of coffee and thrash things out with that person. just as career managers are. The irony was that I was living in Toronto at the time and was at a career/job/recruiting fair some weeks later and the American companies were all like you played around with Java and have C++, we'll train you and you're hired. I went to the USA to work and found that HR, job requirements and experience are regarded much differently from country to country. In Canada they want you to have already done the job before they give it to you. In the USA they will train and work to make you a valuable employee. In Canada training costs money and therefor they shy away from any type of training promises or requirements. The story is different when you have worked in the USA and return to Canada though. They are all over you thinking you have attained some sort of mojo or magic. I spent 8 years working abroad and don't regret it at all. I look for international opportunities whenever possible. Don't get me wrong, Ha, ha, ha: half the problem is that almost everybody - employers and employees alike - are constantly getting each other wrong. not all job openings and opportunities are like what I experienced. My only recommendation is remember that outlandish job requirements means people will have to forge experience just to get in for a an interview. This behaviour ust makes it worse for everyone, not to mention false information can kill your career if you get caught. Many years ago . . . I went for a job interview in a hotel in London for a teaching job out in the desert in the United Arab Emirates. They asked me if I had any teaching qualifications (I had none), they asked me if I had any teaching experience (I had none), and, eventually asked me why I was applying, to which I replied I need the job and you need a teacher, and not many people are going to be prepared to teach in a load of wooden huts in the middle of the desert. I got the job. Subsequently I got all sorts of fancy qualifications; whether they make me a better teacher or not, I just cannot decide. Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Bob- Saturday, January 19, 2013, 11:36:50 PM, you wrote: Thanks for the responses. At least I know my gut reaction to these job descriptions is justified. I think I'll ignore them. Except of course when they require a security clearance that is typically a hard fast limit. Having done this in the past, here's my way of ignoring them. On a case by case basis, if a) I'm interested enough in the position and b) I either fit most of the qualifications or think I can pick them up easily enough along the way, I'll go ahead and submit an application. If I can get to the phone interview I'll start out up front by saying Look, I don't have x or y or z qualification that was listed in the job posting. If that's an absolute requirement then I'd rather not waste both our times continuing with this discussion. But otherwise I think this is a good fit and I'm quite interested in pushing on with it. The conversation can go one of two ways at that point. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
[OT] How to apply for jobs
Sorry, I feel the need to vent, and maybe someone here has some advice they can give me when applying for jobs. First, I go to these job descriptions and see that they want someone with a bachelors in science, 5+ years experience, plus 3 or 4 advanced certifications, with experience in database development, html programming, C, C++, various scripting languages, Active Directory Management, Linux, Unix, Vsphere SAN, virtualization technologies like HyperV and VMWare, etc. etc. etc. And the lofty position I am applying for? Server maintenance! Really?? Server maintenance??? And then I see a line like this: Experience working with assembly languages such as HTML programming, MySQL, C, C , etc erm... pardon me... HTML, mySQL and C are not, you know of course, assembly language... and assembly language is, of course, you know... not plural. is what I want to email them and say. So now I am thinking that they give some nobody the task of typing up the job requirements, so he throws the entire IT gamut at his word processor (having googled some IT catch phrases first), and calls it a job well done. Meanwhile, poor me is looking at all this and wondering if I should even apply, knowing that to have all that under my belt would qualify me for the CTO position at Microsoft, IBM or Apple for crying out loud!!! Should I ignore such requirements and apply everywhere I can, or just skip such jobs because whoever is in charge there clearly does not know what he is doing? Bob ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Robert Sneidar wrote: Sorry, I feel the need to vent, and maybe someone here has some advice they can give me when applying for jobs. ... And then I see a line like this: Experience working with assembly languages such as HTML programming, MySQL, C, C , etc They're either high as a kite or completely misrepresented the actual skill set they're looking for. Either way, seems worth getting an interview. Could be very entertaining. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/FourthWorldSys ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
On 01/19/2013 08:04 PM, Robert Sneidar wrote: erm... pardon me... HTML, mySQL and C are not, you know of course, assembly language... and assembly language is, of course, you know... not plural. It's very possible that this is a warning that you don't want the job, but it may be that your gut reaction is the perfect response which they are hoping for. If it's not then for sure you don't want the job! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Bob- Saturday, January 19, 2013, 6:10:56 PM, Richard wrote: They're either high as a kite or completely misrepresented the actual skill set they're looking for. Third possibility (maybe this is the misrepresented option)... too much cut and paste - somebody in HR has no idea what the jobs are about and just posts a boilerplate set of skills for any open position. If you can make it past the phone interview you should be set. A few well-placed buzzwords in a resume (irrespective of context) should trigger automatic sorting algorithms and at least get you to that stage. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
When I was looking for a job back in the mid 90's I was at an interview where they wanted 2 years java experience. THe problem was Java was just getting out of beta and due to be released in a couple of months. I was stupefied. . . it was like my C++ experience wasn't good enough. I would have had to have been on the Java development team to have the experience they were looking for let alone understand that Java is just a dummies version of C++. I learned from then on that HR people are asses, just as career managers are. The irony was that I was living in Toronto at the time and was at a career/job/recruiting fair some weeks later and the American companies were all like you played around with Java and have C++, we'll train you and you're hired. I went to the USA to work and found that HR, job requirements and experience are regarded much differently from country to country. In Canada they want you to have already done the job before they give it to you. In the USA they will train and work to make you a valuable employee. In Canada training costs money and therefor they shy away from any type of training promises or requirements. The story is different when you have worked in the USA and return to Canada though. They are all over you thinking you have attained some sort of mojo or magic. I spent 8 years working abroad and don't regret it at all. I look for international opportunities whenever possible. Don't get me wrong, not all job openings and opportunities are like what I experienced. My only recommendation is remember that outlandish job requirements means people will have to forge experience just to get in for a an interview. This behaviour ust makes it worse for everyone, not to mention false information can kill your career if you get caught. On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Warren Samples war...@warrensweb.uswrote: On 01/19/2013 08:04 PM, Robert Sneidar wrote: erm... pardon me... HTML, mySQL and C are not, you know of course, assembly language... and assembly language is, of course, you know... not plural. It's very possible that this is a warning that you don't want the job, but it may be that your gut reaction is the perfect response which they are hoping for. If it's not then for sure you don't want the job! Warren __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
On Jan 19, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote: Bob- Saturday, January 19, 2013, 6:10:56 PM, Richard wrote: They're either high as a kite or completely misrepresented the actual skill set they're looking for. Third possibility (maybe this is the misrepresented option)... too much cut and paste - somebody in HR has no idea what the jobs are about and just posts a boilerplate set of skills for any open position. If you can make it past the phone interview you should be set. A few well-placed buzzwords in a resume (irrespective of context) should trigger automatic sorting algorithms and at least get you to that stage. If thats the sort of place you want to work. .Jerry ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Jerry- Saturday, January 19, 2013, 6:56:43 PM, you wrote: If thats the sort of place you want to work. .Jerry Well, sure. The trick is just to ignore HR afterwards. And some of the boilerplate descriptions are dreamed up by external agencies who have had the task of winnowing down the list of applicants outsourced to them. They get their cut and then you don't have to have any further contact with them. -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
mwieder wrote Bob- Saturday, January 19, 2013, 6:10:56 PM, Richard wrote: They're either high as a kite or completely misrepresented the actual skill set they're looking for. Third possibility (maybe this is the misrepresented option)... A forth possibility is they already have a person for the position but they don't have US greencard/citizenship. Isn't a job posting like that the way to prove the person is the only one who can do the job? C++? sure I've heard of it HTML? I think you make web thingys with it JAVA? Oh sure I know all about that, Frank Sinatra sings about it OOD? you can say that again! You're HIRED! Simon -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-How-to-apply-for-jobs-tp4659198p4659218.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Bob, I've pretty much stopped trying to help associates write job descriptions for tech jobs. For some reason friends and associates refer people to me when they are writing these and want some review. They send me things like what you mention and I ask what the job is and It can be as mundane as maintain a simple HTML website and keep our pcs running. Or worse they list the qualifications for an advanced programmer, graphic designer, and writer for a web master job. I will try to explain they should focus the quals and give a clean job description, but they don't want to as they want someone really qualified. They won't listen when I tell them they won't find someone with great graphics, writing and programming skills unless they look a long time and are willing to pay six figures. They will not listen. I end up asking them why they called me in the first place if they don't want to listen. Then the phone calls later whining that they can't find anyone. I now just say I don't think I can help when someone calls about this sort of thing. Oh did I mention they list salaries of $35-45k for these quals that would require 6+ years of school and 10+ years of experience. When I tell them that someone with this large of a skill set will most likely be older and experienced and be expecting a salary at least twice this, they always reply they really want some one really young and hot out of school that is willing to work cheap and take orders. Again blank stare when I point out they asked for 5+ years experience and a list of quals and certs that would put someone at least in their mid 30s, a decade out of school and someone that would definitely have their own mind and would not enjoy being ordered around.. They just don't get it so I just give up before I scream. I do think there is a lot of folks writing these that have no idea of the job or the qualifications are. Then it's copy and paste ad nausieum as mentioned. Depressing. Jeff ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] How to apply for jobs
Thanks for the responses. At least I know my gut reaction to these job descriptions is justified. I think I'll ignore them. Except of course when they require a security clearance that is typically a hard fast limit. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Calvary Chapel CM Sent from iPhone ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
