Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Alex Tweedly]

Marielle Lange wrote:


Alex,

Thanks for the nice demo on how it can be done with runrev.

Note that you can do without an array for you bars function

Funnily enough, I wrote the first version using format - but switched to 
the loop because it was more obvious.
Also, I knew that the maximum number of bars needed was < 200 or so, and 
the loop takes 0.03 milliseconds on my slow-ish laptop, so for the data 
involved, it's not a significant time saving.




Also note that I deliberately avoided to have this  line
   if tMainAlias[t] is not empty then put tMainAlias[t]  into t
within the repeat loop on each line of each document. I put it in a  
loop that executes at the end of the script to speed up the  
processing (less than a second to parse a year of postings with awk).


There are only about 30,000 messages in a year - and executing this 
statement 30,000 times takes about 8 milliseconds - just not 
significant, and IMHO not worth the extra complexity of two loops :-)


 



I know you had no intention to say anything annoying, but this "There  
- one simple solution in Rev rather than using awk and Excel :-)"  
shows a lack of acknowledgement of the fact that Excel was needed to  
solve the problem.  I needed Excel to efficiently skim all lines to  
detect emails aliases. At least it was a lot faster to get it done  
with Excel than with runrev.


You may have found it easier in Excel, but I wouldn't. In fact, I would 
have struggled to do it Excel, whereas doing it in Rev is a minor 
variation of the other loop - took a couple of minutes to write (plus 
another 5 to test !!), and runs in about 1/4 second


otoh, a few years ago I suspect I could have done it in gawk much more 
quickly than I did it in Rev today. I fully agree that there are 
specialist tools that can do some things more quickly or more easily 
than Rev.


But I feel that if a task involves more than one or two simple tools, 
then it is better to switch to a single more powerful tool such as Rev. 
Using Excel AND awk AND ...is OK once - but if you want to repeat the 
task, you're much better off with a single tool and an "all in one" stack.


As all my websites prove, I consider revolution as a very powerful  
programming tool. However, I sometimes use other tools because they  
offer a better solution to some problems. The thing is that it  
wouldn't be too difficult to provide similar tools with runrev.  As  
all my websites show, I am interested in helping to build these  
better tools for revolution. I *DEEPLY* regret that over the last  
year or more, too many attempts for a discussion that would have lead  
to this has been neutralized on this list.  That doesn't get done  
because each time somebody signals that a few things are better done  
with that other tool than with runrev, that person gets told off,  
sometimes crucified.


I hope my email didn't come across as "telling you off" - certainly not 
my intent, and if it gave that impression, then I apologize.


I don't feel a need to "recreate" other tools within Rev - if the tool 
exists, and is already in my quiver of tools, then I'm happy to just use 
it. However, if I can identify what it is that makes another tool more 
useful for some kinds of problems, and therefore build a library (or 
control,. or stack, or ...) to enhance Rev's abilities in that area, 
then I'm all for it.


(btw - if I'd had this task to do without your example and description 
to start off with, I'd probably have used my "mbox" library, and 
produced a much less efficient, but more self-documenting, solution. So 
what I should do now is get that mbox library cleaned up and packaged as 
a proper library so I can release it.)




My own opinion is that we have too many unnecessary religious  
quarrels and controversies on this list.



Yeah.
I would say "Amen" but in the context of your helpful description of 
Laïcité that may not be appropriate :-)


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

Alex,

Thanks for the nice demo on how it can be done with runrev.

Note that you can do without an array for you bars function

function bars pSymbol, pN
   put format("%0" & ntimes, "0") into tBars
  -- format proposes an implementation of printf/sprintf  
used in awk, c++, php, etc.

   replace " 0" with pSymbol in tBars
   return tBars
end function

Also note that I deliberately avoided to have this  line
   if tMainAlias[t] is not empty then put tMainAlias[t]  into t
within the repeat loop on each line of each document. I put it in a  
loop that executes at the end of the script to speed up the  
processing (less than a second to parse a year of postings with awk).


 



I know you had no intention to say anything annoying, but this "There  
- one simple solution in Rev rather than using awk and Excel :-)"  
shows a lack of acknowledgement of the fact that Excel was needed to  
solve the problem.  I needed Excel to efficiently skim all lines to  
detect emails aliases. At least it was a lot faster to get it done  
with Excel than with runrev.


As all my websites prove, I consider revolution as a very powerful  
programming tool. However, I sometimes use other tools because they  
offer a better solution to some problems. The thing is that it  
wouldn't be too difficult to provide similar tools with runrev.  As  
all my websites show, I am interested in helping to build these  
better tools for revolution. I *DEEPLY* regret that over the last  
year or more, too many attempts for a discussion that would have lead  
to this has been neutralized on this list.  That doesn't get done  
because each time somebody signals that a few things are better done  
with that other tool than with runrev, that person gets told off,  
sometimes crucified.


I am sincerely sorry about that, but I am not a person of a single  
religion. I am a laic --  I have been educated under the values of  
"morale laique" -- in belgium, you can attend morale laique lessons  
in place of religion ones at school: http://tinyurl.com/zkl9o


What is it? wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laïcité

The term "laïcité", in its current sense, implies free exercise of  
religion, but no special status for religion: religious activities  
should submit to the same set of laws as other activities and are not  
considered above the law.


[snip]

Laïcité does not necessarily imply, by itself, any hostility of the  
government with respect to religion. It is best described a belief  
that government and political issues should be kept separate from  
religious organizations and religious issues (as long as the latter  
do not have notable social consequences). This is meant to protect  
both the government from any possible interference from religious  
organizations, and to protect the religious organization from  
political quarrels and controversies.


My own opinion is that we have too many unnecessary religious  
quarrels and controversies on this list.


 



I am interested in working, together with other members of this  
community, on using my knowledge and experience of other tools to  
improve the set of components, functions and modules provided in this  
community.


I wish it would be possible to discuss this productively somewhere.  
If you have (productive) suggestions to make, please take contact.  
Privately is best. I came to be annoyed with this list to the point I  
avoid reading it.



Marielle

 


Marielle Lange (PhD),  Psycholinguist

Alternative emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED],

Homepage
http://homepages.widged.com/mlange/
Easy access to lexical databaseshttp:// 
lexicall.widged.com/
Supporting Education Technologists  http:// 
revolution.widged.com/wiki/



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Alex Tweedly]

Marielle Lange wrote:



I wrote the following awk script. Basically, it looks for a line  
starting with "From:  ..." that is right after a line starting with  
"From ..." (if you download an archive file you will see that this  
systematically and unambiguously corresponds to the start of a post).


It's actually easier than that  the archives are in mbox format, so 
the start of a message is unambiguously marked by a line which begins 
"From "  (Any line within a message that starts with these 5 letters 
must be modified - usually by prepending with ">" before that line can 
be put into an mbox file).


There is no guarantee that the From: line will immediately follow it; 
although it seems that it does in these archives, other versions of mbox 
format will put the From: lines later in the header section. But it 
doesn't matter - the "From " line is in itself unambiguous, and carries 
all the info we need (except for the synonyms for changed names).


I'd handle the synonyms by having an array (for example)
 put "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" into  tMainAlias["[EMAIL PROTECTED]"]
(NB only need to do this for those which have synonyms).

So then we have


set the caseSensitive to true
repeat for each line tFile in tFiles
repeat for each line L in URL ("file:" & tFile)
if char 1 to 5 of L = "From " then
put word 2 to 4 of L into t
replace " at " with "@" in t
if tMainAlias[t] is not empty then put tMainAlias[t]  
into t

add 1 to tArray[t]
end if
end repeat
end repeat
put empty into tSubmitters
repeat for each line L in the keys of tArray
put L && tArray[L] & cr after tSubmitters
end repeat
sort lines of tSubmitters descending numeric by word 2 of each
put tSubmitters after msg
repeat for each line L in tSubmitters
put word 1 of L && TAB && bars(word 2 of L) & CR after field 
"Field 1"

end repeat

end mouseUp


function bars pN
repeat pN times
put "|" after t
end repeat
return t
end bars


There - one simple solution in Rev rather than using awk and Excel :-)

--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Marielle Lange wrote:

Hi Mark,

Wow!  I did not realize I even posted this many messages.  While this 
is a low number, I thought I was more quite [I assumed quieter] than 
that.  How did you derive this information?


That's over a year period, that makes between 1 mail every 2-3 days.

I wrote the following awk script. Basically, it looks for a line 


Not written in Rev?? :-(

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Talluto]

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:32 AM, Marielle Lange wrote:

Wow!  I did not realize I even posted this many messages.  While  
this is a low number, I thought I was more quite [I assumed  
quieter] than that.  How did you derive this information?


That's over a year period, that makes between 1 mail every 2-3 days.

I wrote the following awk script. Basically, it looks for a line  
starting with "From:  ..." that is right after a line starting with  
"From ..." (if you download an archive file you will see that this  
systematically and unambiguously corresponds to the start of a post).



Pretty cool!  Good catch on my spelling.  I never proof my messages.   
Oh well.



Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

Hi Mark,

Wow!  I did not realize I even posted this many messages.  While  
this is a low number, I thought I was more quite [I assumed  
quieter] than that.  How did you derive this information?


That's over a year period, that makes between 1 mail every 2-3 days.

I wrote the following awk script. Basically, it looks for a line  
starting with "From:  ..." that is right after a line starting with  
"From ..." (if you download an archive file you will see that this  
systematically and unambiguously corresponds to the start of a post).


{
c++; if (c > 1) { exit }

	filelist = "2005-April.txt,2005-August.txt,2005-December.txt,2005- 
July.txt,2005-June.txt,2005-May.txt,2005-November.txt,2005- 
October.txt,2005-September.txt,2006-February.txt,2006-January.txt, 
2006-March.txt"

split(filelist,afiles,",")
for (i in afiles) {
print afiles[i]
while (getline < afiles[i]) {
if (lineB4 == 1 && $0 ~ /^From: /) {
gsub("\"", "", $0)
gsub("^From:[\t ]*", "", $0)
gsub(" at ", "@", $0)
frFrom[$0]++
}
lineB4 = 0
if ($0 ~ /^From /) {
  lineB4 = 1
}
}
}
}

Because over a year period some of us have changed of email, I have  
added a synonym system, where if a synonym exists

# Andre Garzia
	synonym["[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre Garzia)"] = "[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre  
Garzia)"


I checked for synomyms by sorting on the (Andre Garzia) part and the  
name part of the email, with alerts for duplicates (used excel for  
this with if(B2=B1; "!!!", ""). I was particularly careful about this  
for the 20 first contributors on the list.


Once I was satisfied to have declared all alternative emails for a  
given person, I executed the program again. Loop through the frFrom  
to have the synonym's count being added to the one of the main term.  
Then looped again through the frFrom array and printed out.


The "" representation is obtained with rept("|", frFrom[key]), in  
excel.


If you need a coder to hire for medium to complex parsing problems,  
take contact ;-).


Marielle


 


Marielle Lange (PhD),  Psycholinguist

Alternative emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED],

Homepage
http://homepages.widged.com/mlange/
Easy access to lexical databaseshttp:// 
lexicall.widged.com/
Supporting Education Technologists  http:// 
revolution.widged.com/wiki/



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Troy Rollins]

On Apr 11, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Mark Talluto wrote:




Mark Talluto_   144 ||



Marielle,

Wow!  I did not realize I even posted this many messages.  While  
this is a low number, I thought I was more quite than that.  How  
did you derive this information?


I hit the list too, and I haven't even been using Rev for most of a  
year. I must have been very talkative last year... I know I was even  
more so before that. I haven't graced this list too much as of  
late.  ;-)



--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Talluto]

On Apr 8, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Marielle Lange wrote:


Mark Talluto_   144 ||



Marielle,

Wow!  I did not realize I even posted this many messages.  While this  
is a low number, I thought I was more quite than that.  How did you  
derive this information?




Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Wieder]

David-

Well put.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 9 Apr 2006, at 00:07, Garrett Hylltun wrote:

I'm sure you're right though, I'm sure were not being singled out  
for something derogatory.  It's obvious the intent, which had  
nothing to do with you.  Which adds to your puzzling reply on this.


Almost all those names that were listed are the people who are most  
helpful.  Granted, some of them participate in what I call "ego- 
chatter", but even with that, that list represents a lot of good  
people and I would have assumed that anyone listed would have  
actually felt complimented by that.


I totally agree with this, it's one of the best lists I've ever been  
involved with.


I get wound up by things that I feel are letting RunRev as a concept/ 
product down, however, I still use it and I want it to be better, and  
there is no doubt that is has got better over the 2+ years I have  
been using it. For that I say "thanks and well done". However when  
you have worked in the industry as long as I have, you are bound to  
see mistakes that companies have made over the years, having been  
involved with projects/products that, lets say, didn't reach their  
full potential and were replaced with products that were inferior in  
concept, simply because of bad documentation and buggy interfaces.


Once you understand the separation of the engine and the IDE in  
RunRev, you can see that the concept of the engine and all it's cool  
features is sound. However, when a new user evaluates RunRev, unless  
they understand xTalk, they don't immediately see this separation and  
assume that IDE bugs are part and parcel of the whole thing, and in a  
way they are right.


One of the major problems I face when trying to get RunRev accepted  
in a traditional software development department is that of  
credibility, the first thing the engineer or manager sees is the IDE.  
The thing that I can sell RunRev on is the speed and flexibility of  
programming, in order to do that, I usually write an application or  
part of an application of medium complexity right in front in them. I  
then usually leave the stack(s) with them and tell them to download  
an evaluation copy of RunRev and play with it on their own machine.  
This is the only real way I have found for getting that "wow" factor,  
if I get the wow, I an 99% of the way there. If I don't get it, then  
I'm usually out the door.


The problem with having lots of silly little bugs in the most visible  
of places is that a newbie or someone that is skeptical of the claims  
you have made for the system immediately have their suspicions  
confirmed (or so they think). The real fact of the matter is that  
even with all the silly little bugs in the IDE it's still way faster  
then developing in other languages/environments. I would say  
typically I lose about an hour a day due to these problems, but I  
used to lose longer. I suppose I will eventually lose less time, but  
that's not really the point. I have had a history of using xTalk like  
languages, like SNOBOL4 and SPITBOL and know the underlying power and  
the type of results you can achieve in a relatively small period of  
time, so I am willing to be patient and try to work around the  
problems. Once in while I "give out" about having to put up with it  
and that's about it. However, I really don't think I am the typical  
engineer and to them a buggy IDE to a sign of a "dodgy" product,  
especially if they know that the IDE is coded in TranScript. It's as  
someone else said, well if the makers of the product can't make it  
work properly, what chance have we?


As for bug free pieces of software, take a look at SNOBOL4 and  
SPLITBOL these languages/environments are more powerful and complex  
compared to TranScript in their own way. They run on more platforms  
than RunRev and they are an example of software that is 99.99%  
bug free including the documentation. The main difference is that  
they don't support a GUI.


I really don't think that the problems I have mentioned are being  
experienced by just myself or to my configuration. I have seen these  
on different versions of RunRev running on different machines and on  
different platforms.


I'm not having a personal dig at anyone, bitching for the sake or it  
or trying to be awkward in any way. The only reason I bring them up  
every now and then to try to get something done about it. The fact  
that people are venting the way they are at the moment is a sign that  
something aught to be done to resolve at least some of these issues.


All the Best
Dave


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Judy Perry]

I guess I am fortunate that googling me turns up people other than me or
me in my other incarnation as an amateur historian.

'Cuz otherwise I'd be so obviously toast...

Anybody got the butter handy???

(hiding...  don't hate me, Marielle:  I'm just in an uncharacteristically
good/wine-lubricated mood, especially now that foster-child has vacated
the premises...  wine and cold meds are a good thing [tm]).

Judy

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Marielle Lange wrote:

> Richard,
>
> Are you aware of the message sent to the users of this list over the
> past 4 months?
>
> I can tell you the message I have personally understood.
>
> Beware, if  you express any criticism, Google will be used to check
> your identity out on the web (what happened with that Jerry character
> a while back) and your past activities in bugzilla (David Burgun
> recently) or any defect in your website (Bob Warren) will be used to
> undermine your reputation. If nothing can be found, then innuendos
> and eventually false statements will be used (Xavier, myself).
>
> DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CONTINUE TO SEND THAT MESSAGE?
>
> Marielle
> 
> 
> Marielle Lange (PhD),  Psycholinguist
>
> Alternative emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>
> Homepage
> http://homepages.widged.com/mlange/
> Easy access to lexical databaseshttp://
> lexicall.widged.com/
> Supporting Education Technologists  http://
> revolution.widged.com/wiki/
>
>
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Judy Perry]

Well, Marielle,

I've been accused of it.  Dan too, I'll bet.  And the both of us in a
single breath, I'll wager (I wonder just how many people avoid a forum in
which the two of us reside; or me alone, for that matter).

Sometimes these things happen due to the differences between
bodily-present communications and electronic communications (and sometimes
because some of us present ourselves badly, like I am now at 1:30 a.m. my
local time, after a hugh fight with foster-child that resulted in her
being sent back "home")... and sometimes because some of us (like me, yup)
couldn't find a diplomatic solution if it whupped our sorry @sses, er,
whatever...

And, yes, sometimes people say thing simply TO hurt a person, at a
personal level. And I'm quite certain that I've said things that others
have found were decidedly intended to hurt THE PERSON as opposed to the
position.

I am (most unlike me but currently) charitably of the position that, for
the most part, these differences of opinion (as opposed to personality)
CAN be resolved.

But perhaps that's because I'm currently inclined to be a Pollyana who is
not concurrently occupying the 'naughty stool'...

@;-)

Judy



On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Marielle Lange wrote:

> Any form of communication contains information. Things are never said
> to hurt you, at a person level.



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Chipp Walters]

Hurray! I finally broke into the top ten!!! Champagne anyone?

Though I do have to give credit to Jan Schenkel for slowing down his 
posts, as I'm sure he was the current leader before switching jobs. 
Heck, one year he even won the award for most helpful user on the list 
(bottle of scotch if I'm correct)...Guess that one goes to Richard now.


And certainly Xavier would've given Richard a run for his money if he 
were still posting. That said, I do enjoy Richard's posts quite a bit 
and always look forward to reading them. 'Keep up the good work!'.


- Chipp

Marielle Lange wrote:

Richard Gaskin, Apr  1 16:29:40 2005, wrote:
with so much client work here I'm finding it increasingly  challenging 
to spend time on Rev tools



Maybe you could free up some time by spending less time "correcting"  
any user who makes valid criticisms on the list?


For those interested, here is the list of the 100 most frequent  posters 
on the use-revolution list over the last year (April 05 -  March 06)

(to view with a monospace font or in excel - separated by tabs).

name#posts over a yeargraphical representation (| = 10)
Richard Gaskin  _ 1032
||| 

Xavier Bury _ 1017
||| 
|||
Eric Chatonet   _ 898
 
||
J. Landman Gay  _ 787
 
|||
Mark Wieder _ 783
 
||
Dan Shafer  _ 761
 

Ken Ray _ 744
 ||
Alex Tweedly_ 555

Chipp Walters   _ 536 


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Thomas McGrath III wrote:

Marielle,

My name is on that list. Please do not include my comments or name in 
any of your emails. I know you don't mean anything derogatory by 
including my name but I still would prefer if you didn't.


I know I'm about to probably stir up some real trouble now, but I have 
to say something to this.


Tom, you're saying she can't compliment you?  Ask you any questions? 
Reference anything that you've done that might help another user on the 
list?  Recommend you to someone else on this list as being someone who 
can help that person?  You get my point?


Basically, what you said sounds so ignorant that I can't believe you 
said it.  It seems so childish.


The thing is that anything and everything you put into a public forum 
like this no longer is yours to control.  You can't ask or tell anyone 
not to quote you from a public forum , not to mention your name or 
anything.  It's public.  Well, you can ask and demand, but nobody has to 
 comply.  If you don't want people to even mention you, then remove 
yourself from the list, turn off your computer, lock your doors, and do 
not ever communicate with the world again.


I'm sure you're right though, I'm sure were not being singled out for 
something derogatory.  It's obvious the intent, which had nothing to do 
with you.  Which adds to your puzzling reply on this.


Almost all those names that were listed are the people who are most 
helpful.  Granted, some of them participate in what I call 
"ego-chatter", but even with that, that list represents a lot of good 
people and I would have assumed that anyone listed would have actually 
felt complimented by that.


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Thomas McGrath III]

Marielle,

My name is on that list. Please do not include my comments or name in  
any of your emails. I know you don't mean anything derogatory by  
including my name but I still would prefer if you didn't.


Thank you,

Tom

On Apr 8, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Marielle Lange wrote:


Richard Gaskin, Apr  1 16:29:40 2005, wrote:
with so much client work here I'm finding it increasingly  
challenging to spend time on Rev tools


Maybe you could free up some time by spending less time  
"correcting" any user who makes valid criticisms on the list?


For those interested, here is the list of the 100 most frequent  
posters on the use-revolution list over the last year (April 05 -  
March 06)

(to view with a monospace font or in excel - separated by tabs).

name#posts over a year  graphical representation (| = 10)
Richard Gaskin  _	 
1032	| 
||
Xavier Bury _	 
1017	| 
|
Eric Chatonet   _	 
898	|| 

J. Landman Gay  _	 
787	|| 
|
Mark Wieder _	 
783	|| 

Dan Shafer  _	 
761	|| 
||
Ken Ray _	 
744	|| 

Alex Tweedly_	 
555	
Chipp Walters   _	 
536	||
Klaus Major _	 
527	|
Thomas McGrath III  _	 
526	|
Sarah Reichelt  _	 
516	

David Burgun_   432 |||
Judy Perry  _   395 
Lynch, Jonathan _   390 |||
Jim Ault_   370 |
Dennis Brown_   357 
Stephen Barncard_   351 |||
Scott Rossi _   348 |||
Andre Garzia_   343 ||
Jon _   321 
Mark Smith  _   316 
Charles Hartman _   309 |||
Scott Kane  _   272 |||
Sivakatirswami  _   255 ||
Trevor DeVore   _   249 |
David Bovill_   243 
Rob Cozens  _   240 
Dar Scott   _   226 |||
Marielle Lange  _   219 ||
Jim Hurley  _   212 |
Dave Cragg  _   189 |||
Peter T. Evensen_   188 |||
[EMAIL PROTECTED]_  176 ||
Bob Hartley _   173 |
Timothy Miller  _   150 |||
Mathewson   _   149 |||
Malte Brill _   146 |||
Geoff Canyon_   144 ||
Mark Talluto_   144 ||
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto _   143 ||
jbv _   140 ||
Frank D. Engel, Jr. _   134 |
Pierre Sahores  _   134 |
Garrett Hylltun _   133 |
Devin Asay  _   131 |
sims_   131 |
Phil Davis  _   128 |
Alejandro Tejada_   125 |
Bill Humphrey   _   119 
Robert Brenstein_   117 
Brian Yennie_   117 
Bob Warren  _   112 |||
Mark Swindell   _   100 ||
Jan Schenkel_   99  ||
graham samuel   _   99  ||
Dom _   98  ||
Derek Bump  _   97  ||
FlexibleLearning_   97  ||
Thomas McCarthy _   93  |
Erik Hansen _   93  |
Chris Sheffield _   93  |
Wouter  _   93  |
Mark Schonewille_   92  |
Bjönke_von_Gierke   _   92  |
Troy Rollins_   91  |
Marty Knapp _   90  |
Ban Nguyen  _   89  |
Bill Marriott   _   84  
Lynn Fr

Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Ken Ray]

On 4/8/06 3:15 PM, "Marielle Lange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe you could free up some time by spending less time "correcting"
> any user who makes valid criticisms on the list?

???
 
> For those interested, here is the list of the 100 most frequent
> posters on the use-revolution list over the last year (April 05 -
> March 06)
> (to view with a monospace font or in excel - separated by tabs).

All I can say, Marielle, is you have *WAY* too much time on your hands...

;-)


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Marielle Lange wrote:

Richard Gaskin, Apr  1 16:29:40 2005, wrote:
with so much client work here I'm finding it increasingly challenging 
to spend time on Rev tools


Maybe you could free up some time by spending less time "correcting" any 
user who makes valid criticisms on the list?


For those interested, here is the list of the 100 most frequent posters 
on the use-revolution list over the last year (April 05 - March 06)

(to view with a monospace font or in excel - separated by tabs).

name#posts over a yeargraphical representation (| = 10)


I have to say though, that those you listed have been of great help to 
not only myself, but many many others.  And for that I thank them all.


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

David Burgun wrote:


On 8 Apr 2006, at 02:06, Bob Warren wrote:


Garrett Hylltun wrote:

>Have you ever dropped a stack of a thousand or so punch cards!?  That
was the last time I ever dropped a stack.  Took me weeks to put the
stack back in order before I could run it through the reader.

Yes, and worse. On one occasion I was feeding in trays and trays of 
cards that represented free gifts to the clients. Although I was 
always very methodical and careful when doing this, somehow, I don't 
know how, I fed in a tray (or more?) of cards twice. As a result, 
about 10,000 customers got their rather expensive gifts in duplicate! 
Needless to say, proper statistical controls were implemented by my 
department afterwards. It turned out to be quite didactic.


Bob


That's what the sequencing field was for! If you used it, you could run 
it thru the sorted and it would put them all back in order!


Unfortunately we did not have one.  Just a puncher and a reader.  :-(

-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

Richard Gaskin, Apr  1 16:29:40 2005, wrote:
with so much client work here I'm finding it increasingly  
challenging to spend time on Rev tools


Maybe you could free up some time by spending less time "correcting"  
any user who makes valid criticisms on the list?


For those interested, here is the list of the 100 most frequent  
posters on the use-revolution list over the last year (April 05 -  
March 06)

(to view with a monospace font or in excel - separated by tabs).

name#posts over a year  graphical representation (| = 10)
Richard Gaskin  _	 
1032	||| 

Xavier Bury _	 
1017	||| 
|||
Eric Chatonet   _	 
898	 
||
J. Landman Gay  _	 
787	 
|||
Mark Wieder _	 
783	 
||
Dan Shafer  _	 
761	 

Ken Ray _	 
744	 
||
Alex Tweedly_	 
555	
Chipp Walters   _	 
536	||
Klaus Major _	 
527	|
Thomas McGrath III  _	 
526	|
Sarah Reichelt  _	 
516	

David Burgun_   432 |||
Judy Perry  _   395 
Lynch, Jonathan _   390 |||
Jim Ault_   370 |
Dennis Brown_   357 
Stephen Barncard_   351 |||
Scott Rossi _   348 |||
Andre Garzia_   343 ||
Jon _   321 
Mark Smith  _   316 
Charles Hartman _   309 |||
Scott Kane  _   272 |||
Sivakatirswami  _   255 ||
Trevor DeVore   _   249 |
David Bovill_   243 
Rob Cozens  _   240 
Dar Scott   _   226 |||
Marielle Lange  _   219 ||
Jim Hurley  _   212 |
Dave Cragg  _   189 |||
Peter T. Evensen_   188 |||
[EMAIL PROTECTED]_  176 ||
Bob Hartley _   173 |
Timothy Miller  _   150 |||
Mathewson   _   149 |||
Malte Brill _   146 |||
Geoff Canyon_   144 ||
Mark Talluto_   144 ||
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto _   143 ||
jbv _   140 ||
Frank D. Engel, Jr. _   134 |
Pierre Sahores  _   134 |
Garrett Hylltun _   133 |
Devin Asay  _   131 |
sims_   131 |
Phil Davis  _   128 |
Alejandro Tejada_   125 |
Bill Humphrey   _   119 
Robert Brenstein_   117 
Brian Yennie_   117 
Bob Warren  _   112 |||
Mark Swindell   _   100 ||
Jan Schenkel_   99  ||
graham samuel   _   99  ||
Dom _   98  ||
Derek Bump  _   97  ||
FlexibleLearning_   97  ||
Thomas McCarthy _   93  |
Erik Hansen _   93  |
Chris Sheffield _   93  |
Wouter  _   93  |
Mark Schonewille_   92  |
Bjönke_von_Gierke   _   92  |
Troy Rollins_   91  |
Marty Knapp _   90  |
Ban Nguyen  _   89  |
Bill Marriott   _   84  
Lynn Fredricks  _   83  
Todd Geist  _   83  
Ruslan Zasukhin _   83  
Jerry Daniels   _   81  
Howard Bornstein_   81  
Dick Kriesel_   79  
liamlambert _   79  

Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

Marielle...

That was one of the strangest posts I've ever gotten on a mailing list. I
went back and read my original message and for the life of me I can't figure
out what you're trying to tell me.

The only point I made was that sometimes -- stress that word -- what one
person sees as a bug or defect in the product is more a function of their
personal usage or system configuration. So when someone posts a complaint on
this list -- and contrary to your apparent view of me, I've done that tons
of times myself -- it is *sometimes* not really a product defect or bug but
rather a conflict between what they expect and what they experience that is
explainable by reasons other than bugs in Rev.

Does Rev have bugs? Absolutely. I'd be astonished if it didn't. Is this an
appropriate forum in which to discuss such bugs? Absolutely. Particularly in
an effort to determine if a particular experience *is* a bug or just a
mis-understanding or a result of inaccurate documentation. I do not believe
you can cite one instance where I have criticized anyone here for reporting
a bug. I have corrected misperceptions about bugs and I have added my voice
to a chorus saying, "That's not really a bug." But I don't believe I have
ever invalidated a person's experience; I'm just not made that way.

It is hardly the case that *anyone* on this list engages in the behavior you
describe in the paragraph I've excerpted below from your very long diatribe.
A few criticisms that were not repeatable in my experience and which seemed
to me to be potentially due to issues that were not *directly* related to
Revolution have certainly been subjects to which I have responded with
justification or correction. You imply that all such criticisms are valid
and should not be replied to other than in a positive, supportive manner. I
would find that useless as a form of communication.

I don't know what I've done to offend you that would cause you to take the
time away from what I presume is a busy schedule to write so long and
detailed a response, but if I have personally offended you in any way, I
apologize.

On 4/8/06, Marielle Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You are setting up a greater and greater divide between persons who
> have some valid criticisms to make and persons who refuse to let any
> single criticism pass without being justified/corrected.
>
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Rob Cozens]

Hi Dave,

I really don't think you understand the ISM concept and think it's 
some strange thing that is somehow going against the way Xtalk's work. 
It's really not. It's really just a convenient and flexible way of 
allowing an object to communicate with other objects without having to 
explicitly tell the objects what do do.


I agree 100%...which is why I said "possibly."

And it wouldn't be the first concept I couldn't grasp in totality: I 
believe Xavier Bury's XOS and more recent concepts would be well-worth 
understanding; but I have not found the time nor the key to 
understanding.


I read the example, think I understand each sentence, but draw a blank 
when comes to drawing parallels with my techniques and needs.


Maybe when ISM is unveiled to the world, others will help me get a 
better grasp.



Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Bob Warren]

The last thing I want to do today, particularly after my personal 
experiences of yesterday not connected with this list, is to get mixed 
up in psychological analyses. But in view of the fact that certain 
analyses have been made based my recent posts and the List's reactions 
to them, I would just like to say a few words that think might be 
appropriate.


I have lived in Brazil for more than half my life, and one of the first 
things I had to learn early on was that cultural attitudes towards the 
truth can be very different. For example, in England, we expect a doctor 
always to tell us the truth about our diagnosis, and if he doesn't do 
that, he can even get sued for it. So if a cancer patient has two weeks 
to live, the doctor says "You have two weeks to live", and that's that. 
In Brazil, this would be considered by many doctors to be unethical. 
After all, if the poor patient really does have only two weeks to live, 
what right does the doctor have to spoil the last 2 weeks of the 
patient's life?


What I am trying to say is that although the truth is of fundamental 
importance, it is not always wise to go around hitting people over the 
head with it. The main reason is that it tends to create symmetrical 
relationships and the eventual polarization expressed far too often in 
the form of war. More complementary relationships are needed in this 
warring world of ours, and consequently on this List.


Although the fundamental purpose of this list is to discuss technical 
issues, the fact that we are drawn into arguments about questions of 
management, and even of individual personalities, is inevitable. 
However, on this occasion I have been extremly gratified to see that the 
situation has not got completely and utterly out of hand, as it has 
sometimes done on previous occasions.


One of the fundamental guiding principles I try to use (but sometimes 
fail in using adequately, I admit) is that ALL ideas are valuable, 
including the ones we might initially disagree with or find obnoxious.
Or in other words, it is more important to attempt to use the creative 
potential of a wrong idea than to abandon it. The theory of "lateral" 
thinking and psychology is easy, but the practice of it can take years 
of dedication and perhaps education.


That's all. Now let's get back to the technicalities of computer 
programming, until the next punchup, which we all enjoy as long as we 
don't get hurt too much!


Regards to all,
Bob Warren


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End of Thread (RE: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read)

[Lynn Fredricks]

This thread no longer deals constructively with Revolution. Hostile forces
retreat.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dave Cragg]

On 8 Apr 2006, at 14:01, Marielle Lange wrote:


The link to  on
 is 404.

Merde happens.


Richard,

Are you aware of the message sent to the users of this list over  
the past 4 months?


I can tell you the message I have personally understood.

Beware, if  you express any criticism, Google will be used to check  
your identity out on the web (what happened with that Jerry  
character a while back) and your past activities in bugzilla (David  
Burgun recently) or any defect in your website (Bob Warren) will be  
used to undermine your reputation. If nothing can be found, then  
innuendos and eventually false statements will be used (Xavier,  
myself).


DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CONTINUE TO SEND THAT MESSAGE?


Marielle

I really don't understand the content of your mail except that it  
appears to be an attack on Richard. In the past few months, you've  
attacked Chipp Walters, Dan Shafer (twice), and now Richard on this  
list. And you've done it in a style that borders on deranged.


Chipp, Dan, and Richard are major contributors to the Rev community.  
They are strong supporters of the product, yet they are also among  
its most frequent critics. They all offer their personal and honest  
opinions.  I don't always agree with what they say, and I'm sure they  
don't always agree with my opinions. But you seem offended when they  
offer opinion or information that is contrary to other people's. Your  
replies are very personal and unpleasant, and I find your habit of  
digging up quotes from mails written a long time ago quite disturbing.


Most people belong to this list to get help with programming, and  
some occasional banter. You seem to be pursuing a personal crusade. I  
wish you'd stop.


Regards
Dave Cragg
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

The link to  on
 is 404.

Merde happens.


Richard,

Are you aware of the message sent to the users of this list over the  
past 4 months?


I can tell you the message I have personally understood.

Beware, if  you express any criticism, Google will be used to check  
your identity out on the web (what happened with that Jerry character  
a while back) and your past activities in bugzilla (David Burgun  
recently) or any defect in your website (Bob Warren) will be used to  
undermine your reputation. If nothing can be found, then innuendos  
and eventually false statements will be used (Xavier, myself).


DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CONTINUE TO SEND THAT MESSAGE?

Marielle
 


Marielle Lange (PhD),  Psycholinguist

Alternative emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED],

Homepage
http://homepages.widged.com/mlange/
Easy access to lexical databaseshttp:// 
lexicall.widged.com/
Supporting Education Technologists  http:// 
revolution.widged.com/wiki/



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

I really don't think you understand the ISM concept and think it's  
some strange thing that is somehow going against the way Xtalk's  
work. It's really not. It's really just a convenient and flexible way  
of allowing an object to communicate with other objects without  
having to explicitly tell the objects what do do.


Think of it like this. You could write some code that did the following:

put "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" into field "EmailAddress"
enable button "OK"
disable field "PhoneNumber"

etc.

In (say) a mouse up handler of a "Do Some Action" button. In other  
words the logic to determine what to do to other objects is  
determined by the object that initiated the event. This means that  
when you want a different action for an existing object or additional  
actions or actions for other objects you have to change the "sender".  
It's like a teacher in a class room telling each individual pupil to  
turn to page 66 of a text book, instead of telling the whole class.  
This isn't the best example, since, the *same* action is performed by  
each pupil in the class. Instead, imagine you said, "Go to the page  
where you left off last week and continue from that point". The  
difference is that you could either track which page each individual  
pupil is on and give out many instructions such as "John, go to page  
33", "Bob, go to page 54", "Julie, go to page 132" or could leave the  
decision as to which page to go to up to the person receiving the  
instruction and give one instruction and they could use their memory  
to go to the correct place. ISM allows you do do this.


For instance, with a file path name, different fields may want to do  
different things:


Field 1 - put theFilePathName into field 1
Field 2 - put  of file theFilePathName into field 2

Using ISM, you put the choice of what to do with the data received in  
the Object that is processing the data. not in the sender of the data.


This is basic OOP.

All the Best
Dave

Hi,

All my messages pass along the very same chain you are using, the  
fact that there is a library that is managing events has nothing to  
do with it. I've experienced the problems I mentioned (and they have  
been verified by others) in small 3 control test stacks with no  
libraries etc. I do not "force" anything into a central object  
library or any other kind of library.


All the Best
Dave

On 7 Apr 2006, at 17:32, Rob Cozens wrote:



David, et al:

In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a  
drug induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an  
hourly basis!




For the past two weeks I have been scripting at least four hours  
daily using Rev v2.7 on Windows XP.


I have experienced no crashes--even when trying to force a crash  
for Rev Support.  I don't spot the bugs you mention because (a) I'm  
not using the same features your are, and (possibly) (b) because I  
allow most messages to pass up the message chain rather than trying  
to force them to a centralized object library.


This is not said to discredit you; but to point out that RunRev is  
so feature-rich and can be applied to such different applications  
that one developer's experience may be entirely different from  
another's.


Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

That's true of course, I could rewrite the Script Editor and may well  
do so, but really, unless I invested a lot of time understanding the  
how the rest of the IDE worked, it would probably not work very well.  
If I were to do it, I'd rewrite the whole thing.


All the Best
Dave


On 7 Apr 2006, at 18:20, Mark Wieder wrote:


David-

Thursday, April 6, 2006, 6:51:18 PM, you wrote:


It depends on whether I wrote it in the first place or not. Assume I
didn't and have been given the source code, I'd take a look at it and


You *do* have the source code. Knock yourself out.

--
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 8 Apr 2006, at 02:06, Bob Warren wrote:


Garrett Hylltun wrote:

>Have you ever dropped a stack of a thousand or so punch cards!?  That
was the last time I ever dropped a stack.  Took me weeks to put the
stack back in order before I could run it through the reader.

Yes, and worse. On one occasion I was feeding in trays and trays of  
cards that represented free gifts to the clients. Although I was  
always very methodical and careful when doing this, somehow, I  
don't know how, I fed in a tray (or more?) of cards twice. As a  
result, about 10,000 customers got their rather expensive gifts in  
duplicate! Needless to say, proper statistical controls were  
implemented by my department afterwards. It turned out to be quite  
didactic.


Bob


That's what the sequencing field was for! If you used it, you could  
run it thru the sorted and it would put them all back in order!


All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 22:43, Ken Ray wrote:


On 4/7/06 3:36 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I'm so old my first computer was made of cardboard. Heck, we had to
'punch out' the cardboard parts just to build it (and we did this  
all by

candlelight as electricity wasn't invented yet). We wouldv'e given
anything to play with those fancy Hollerith card-punch machines.


Oh, Yeah? Well WE had to walk 35 miles through a raging snowstorm  
with only
flipflops and snorkles while juggling crazed rabid wombats and  
breathing

sulphur just to LOOK at a cardboard computer!


Oh, you used one of those Apollo boxes too!

All the Best
Dave


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

Hi,

All my messages pass along the very same chain you are using, the  
fact that there is a library that is managing events has nothing to  
do with it. I've experienced the problems I mentioned (and they have  
been verified by others) in small 3 control test stacks with no  
libraries etc. I do not "force" anything into a central object  
library or any other kind of library.


All the Best
Dave

On 7 Apr 2006, at 17:32, Rob Cozens wrote:



David, et al:

In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a  
drug induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an  
hourly basis!




For the past two weeks I have been scripting at least four hours  
daily using Rev v2.7 on Windows XP.


I have experienced no crashes--even when trying to force a crash  
for Rev Support.  I don't spot the bugs you mention because (a) I'm  
not using the same features your are, and (possibly) (b) because I  
allow most messages to pass up the message chain rather than trying  
to force them to a centralized object library.


This is not said to discredit you; but to point out that RunRev is  
so feature-rich and can be applied to such different applications  
that one developer's experience may be entirely different from  
another's.


Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

While I found much to agree with in your post, your gratuitous  
swipes at
"the severe cases of denial that key contributers to this list seem  
to suffer from" was one I

couldn't let pass without comment. I'm sure I'm on that list.


Dan,

Very very seriously. While I recognize your intention to be pure,  
there is no use to answer anything like "I couldn't let pass without  
comment. I'm sure I'm on that list." I am not sure you were on the  
list... but you if you weren't, you just voluntarily put yourself on it.


You are setting up a greater and greater divide between persons who  
have some valid criticisms to make and persons who refuse to let any  
single criticism pass without being justified/corrected.


Any form of communication contains information. Things are never said  
to hurt you, at a person level. Things are said to give you some  
information. If I person end up expressing something that hurt you at  
a personal level, then it is that something has been going wrong in  
the communication... and two persons (or more) had been involved in it.


You said you have never heard of problems with 2.7 on MacOSX. Some  
users of osx have already indicated on this list that like me they  
prefer to keep using 2.6 because they believe 2.7 is not stable  
enough yet.


I don't write it on the list everytime you write that 2.7 is "fine"  
on mac osx because, (1) I know that if I do so I will be attacked for  
doing so (this never fails!) and (2) like many, I by far prefer to  
make my criticisms in private... I only end up making them public  
when I have the feeling that my listener doesn't want to hear that he  
is doing anything wrong... and by doing so is heading in a wall.   
Like many users on this list, whenever I end up not being able to  
repress criticisms, is because *I do want runrev to strive* and I  
feel the need to encourage them to make better decisions.


The fact is that many valid points have been made that "key  
contributers to this list" have tried to dismissed inappropriately.  
That's the frustration expressed in the quote above.


To present on this list as invalid criticism what is a valid one and  
to start bitching the user who made such a criticism to try to reveal  
a weakness in his armour or question his status like has been  
happening a lot recently is really not the best way to proceed.


Let runrev protect themselves Your attitude suggests that you  
don't trust them for being able to do so. This message you send is  
more damaging to runrev's reputation than angry comments any unhappy  
user may make on the list.


I understand that many "key contributers to this list"  of this lists  
have their commercial/personal interests tightly tight up to the ones  
of runrev and they may feel tempted to defend runrev because  
defending revolution is defending their own interests. Still, let  
runrev protect themselves


Personally, I do believe they are able to hear valid criticisms and  
use them for their benefit.  With the way "key contributers to this  
list", any criticism is being intercepted and prevented from reaching  
runrev's support. Only "happy" or "overprotective" comments are now  
authorized on this list. The fact that you currently *forbid* users  
to make any criticism means that it is about impossible for runrev to  
realize the extent of the problems. And this makes it impossible for  
them to FIX the problem.


On top, intercepting and dismissing criticisms increases rather than  
decreases the occurence of angry comments on the list. This is a very  
very unhealthy communication process.  The user who made the  
criticism starts to feel more and more frustrated as he has no place  
to express problems that nag him. He knows he is not supposed to make  
criticism on the list and he starts boiling. At one point, he cannot  
hold it anymore and "erupt" on the list. This was expressed by David  
Burgun recently. There will be less "eruptions" if users who have  
things that nag them are authorized to make the problems that nag  
them known and be reassured that the situation will improve.


I had some mishaps a month ago. Now I have much evidence that they  
are moving forward, in the right direction, and acting on the  
criticisms made to them. Heather recently posted an email reminding  
users of the best ways to make their reasons to be unhappy to  
runrev's support and so doing reassure users that they are very  
welcome (even invited) to make them aware of any problem with their  
product. Ken kindly offered a new version of his revzilla application  
(http://www.sonsothunder.com/devres/revolution/downloads/ 
RevZilla2.htm), which makes reporting problems to runrev a piece of  
cake.


There are some valid criticims made on this list... Presenting them  
as invalid is not a good option. Bitching the persons who toke the  
time to make these criticisms is not a good option either.


A better option is to acknowledge these criticisms for wha

RE: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Scott Kane]

> Now, now Ken, you know that is hard to believe. We do not 
> have rabies  
> here in wombat's own country.

Exactly.  But you do have to watch for their bite.  Being
venomous and all...   ;-)

Scott

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/303 - Release Date: 6/04/2006
 

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Vaughan]

On 08/04/2006, at 0:50, David Burgun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


One way of
putting it is that the boundaries of capability have been pushed
over the years while the rise in bugs has been disproportionately  
low.


Over what years are you talking about? I really can't see this, for
instance:

When I first started in programming we used assembler on Mini-
Computers.. Back then, programmers used to get paid a
bonus for shipping bug free code, that bonus would decrease as the
bug count increased. It was even possible to go into negative bonus
which would be subtracted from bonus of the next project.


Sounds a fine idea but alas you are off my point. I understand QA  
processes very well. Your mini-computer/assembler example is  
inevitably of a simpler system compared with those one can readily  
create today in languages such as Rev. Yes, assembler programming is  
complex (been there, done that) but the delivered functionality of a  
3GL or later language is light years beyond what you and I were doing  
with kerosene-powered computers and rice-paper Hollerith cards.  
Complexity and errors per function point rise with the measurable  
size of the software whereas small, simple applications are simple to  
make relatively bug free. Despite that, the rate of errors per  
function point declines with more powerful languages, and those  
languages enable the delivery of applications of a complexity which  
could not reasonably be done thirty years ago. Hence my point that  
capabilities have extended at a disproportionately low error rate.   
Simple, and well established from industry benchmarks in at least the  
last twenty five years.


When I first started of the Mac, the software was must more robust
and bug free.

Not in my experience :-)
As Richard said elsewhere, perhaps my usage and environment exposed  
bugs you did not see, and now our positions are reversed.


Which brings me to Bob Warren's comment about ignoring bugs. I  
promise faithfully I do not ignore them, I just do not encounter  
significant bugs in my use of the IDE on OS X 10.4.5 with a zillion  
other applications running. I can not comment on Linux. When I find  
what I think is a bug I start by searching my own actions, maybe ask  
this list for help, see if someone else has it on Bugzilla and if not  
then I will raise it thanks to Ken's Revzilla interface. I have no  
current bugs in Bugzilla.


All the Best
Dave

and David
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Vaughan]

On 08/04/2006, at 8:48, Ken Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:



Oh, Yeah? Well WE had to walk 35 miles through a raging snowstorm  
with only
flipflops and snorkles while juggling crazed rabid wombats and  
breathing

sulphur just to LOOK at a cardboard computer!

;-)

Ken Ray


Now, now Ken, you know that is hard to believe. We do not have rabies  
here in wombat's own country.


David
David
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Bob Warren]

Garrett Hylltun wrote:

>Have you ever dropped a stack of a thousand or so punch cards!?  That
was the last time I ever dropped a stack.  Took me weeks to put the
stack back in order before I could run it through the reader.

Yes, and worse. On one occasion I was feeding in trays and trays of 
cards that represented free gifts to the clients. Although I was always 
very methodical and careful when doing this, somehow, I don't know how, 
I fed in a tray (or more?) of cards twice. As a result, about 10,000 
customers got their rather expensive gifts in duplicate! Needless to 
say, proper statistical controls were implemented by my department 
afterwards. It turned out to be quite didactic.


Bob

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Bob Warren wrote:


Another thing that gets me worked up (but not from your post) is 
people citing their curriculum vitae before telling us that we ought 
to swallow great excesses of bugs because somehow it is "natural and 
normal" nowadays. In actual fact, I was hand-punching machine language 
bootstrap routines on Hollerith cards before these people were even born. 


Have you ever dropped a stack of a thousand or so punch cards!?  That 
was the last time I ever dropped a stack.  Took me weeks to put the 
stack back in order before I could run it through the reader.  :-(


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marty Knapp]

When I was a kid, I had to walk clear across the room to turn on the TV!

Marty Knapp



On 4/7/06 3:36 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

I'm so old my first computer was made of cardboard. Heck, we had to
'punch out' the cardboard parts just to build it (and we did this all by
candlelight as electricity wasn't invented yet). We wouldv'e given
anything to play with those fancy Hollerith card-punch machines.



Oh, Yeah? Well WE had to walk 35 miles through a raging snowstorm with only
flipflops and snorkles while juggling crazed rabid wombats and breathing
sulphur just to LOOK at a cardboard computer!

;-)

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Ken Ray]

On 4/7/06 3:36 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm so old my first computer was made of cardboard. Heck, we had to
> 'punch out' the cardboard parts just to build it (and we did this all by
> candlelight as electricity wasn't invented yet). We wouldv'e given
> anything to play with those fancy Hollerith card-punch machines.

Oh, Yeah? Well WE had to walk 35 miles through a raging snowstorm with only
flipflops and snorkles while juggling crazed rabid wombats and breathing
sulphur just to LOOK at a cardboard computer!

;-)

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Warren at howsoft.com wrote:

Another thing that gets me worked up (but not from your post) is people 
citing their curriculum vitae before telling us that we ought to swallow 
great excesses of bugs because somehow it is "natural and normal" 
nowadays.


[[CV snipped]]

Bug report:

The link to  on
 is 404.

Merde happens.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Chipp Walters]

Bob Warren wrote:

Another thing that gets me worked up (but not from your post) is people 
citing their curriculum vitae before telling us that we ought to swallow 
great excesses of bugs because somehow it is "natural and normal" 
nowadays. In actual fact, I was hand-punching machine language bootstrap 
routines on Hollerith cards before these people were even born. 


Oh Yeah?

I'm so old my first computer was made of cardboard. Heck, we had to 
'punch out' the cardboard parts just to build it (and we did this all by 
candlelight as electricity wasn't invented yet). We wouldv'e given 
anything to play with those fancy Hollerith card-punch machines.


:-)

http://www.mindsontoys.com/kits.htm?dc1_main.htm

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Bob Warren]

Dan Shafer wrote:

>Bob.

>While I found much to agree with in your post, your gratuitous swipes 
>at "the severe cases of denial that key contributers to this list seem 
>to suffer from" was one I couldn't let pass without comment. I'm sure 
>I'm on that list.


Thanks Dan. I'm not so sure as you appear to be.

>It's not denial. It's different experience. As Rob Cozens has pointed 
>out quite cogently, the fact that you experience bugs in the IDE and 
>others don't doesn't mean they're in denial. It may mean a lot of 
>things. Maybe they've developed some reflex that keeps them from doing 
>certain things a certain way because when they do, things break. Maybe 
>they're exercising completely different parts of the IDE from you. 
>Maybe there are system configuration issues at work that none of us 
yet >understands. There are many reasons a "key contributor" to this 
list >might not experience or report the same problems as others but you 
need >not attribute a bad motivation of denail or (as you do later in 
your >post) politics. None of us has a thing to gain from defending Rev 
when >it shouldn't be defended and I can guarantee you that every one of 
>those "key contributors" has at one time or another been as vocal and 
>vociferous about their bug experiences as you are now.


As I said in my post, just try using the Linux version of Rev for 5 
minutes, and then tell me what the state of your patience is. And as I 
also said, I am just trying to find some kind of explanation for the 
fact that so many people seem to be blind or uninformed. All the 
suggestions you make above are indeed credible, but they don't match my 
experience, that's all. So after wrestling with the Linux version, I'm 
short on patience. They launch 2.7 for Windows, I rub my hands together 
in glee, and load my first project into it. What's the first thing I 
see? A bug before my very eyes!** And that's before even trying to run 
the project. I'm sorry, but that's scandalous. Perhaps my tendency to 
hit out in all directions is a little misplaced, but it is not difficult 
to understand, is it?


Another thing that gets me worked up (but not from your post) is people 
citing their curriculum vitae before telling us that we ought to swallow 
great excesses of bugs because somehow it is "natural and normal" 
nowadays. In actual fact, I was hand-punching machine language bootstrap 
routines on Hollerith cards before these people were even born. So what?

Experience leads either to greater wisdom or to greater blindness.

That said, you can rest assured that I respect your carefully considered 
opinion, as we all do. Thanks for your comments.



** i.e. the barber's pole background my combo box has now acquired.

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

Bob.

While I found much to agree with in your post, your gratuitous swipes at
"the severe cases of
denial that key contributers to this list seem to suffer from" was one I
couldn't let pass without comment. I'm sure I'm on that list.

It's not denial. It's different experience. As Rob Cozens has pointed out
quite cogently, the fact that you experience bugs in the IDE and others
don't doesn't mean they're in denial. It may mean a lot of things. Maybe
they've developed some reflex that keeps them from doing certain things a
certain way because when they do, things break. Maybe they're exercising
completely different parts of the IDE from you. Maybe there are system
configuration issues at work that none of us yet understands. There are many
reasons a "key contributor" to this list might not experience or report the
same problems as others but you need not attribute a bad motivation of
denail or (as you do later in your post) politics. None of us has a thing to
gain from defending Rev when it shouldn't be defended and I can guarantee
you that every one of those "key contributors" has at one time or another
been as vocal and vociferous about their bug experiences as you are now.


--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Wieder]

David-

Thursday, April 6, 2006, 6:51:18 PM, you wrote:

> It depends on whether I wrote it in the first place or not. Assume I
> didn't and have been given the source code, I'd take a look at it and

You *do* have the source code. Knock yourself out.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

Marielle Lange wrote:

Dear Jacque,

I was very surprised to read about "The IDE guys use Rev like anyone  
else to work on the IDE"  given how unoptimized the code of the IDE  is 
and the problems there are with objects as basic as table fields.  I was 
even more surprised to see you write that "Runtime also takes  
consulting work, and all of that is done in Rev too". Sure, everybody  
suspects so... 


You'd hardly have to "suspect" it -- "Consulting & Services" is a major 
linked bullet point at the top of every web page.


When Runtime first began doing this, developers were afraid it would cut 
into their business. That has not turned out to be the case. It appears 
there is plenty of work to go around.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Bob Warren]

I didn't send this e-mail yesterday, because others had already said all 
that I really wanted to say - only better. However, I think that we 
might profit from a common sense approach to bugs. If they are 
immediately apparent, then they should never have got there in the first 
place. If not, the proper reporting of less obvious bugs is a help, but 
certainly not through a perverse system like Bugzilla. The whole problem 
as I see it is the fact that the system is geared to the acceptance of 
an excessive number of bugs, which of course demands an organisation 
that should never have arisen in the first place. If there were 
significantly fewer bugs in the IDE (as there should be), then the 
UR-List itself might even be sufficient for reporting them. What's more 
the Rev team would kiss our feet for bringing them up (by the way, I 
wash my feet at least once a month...). Under the present philosopy and 
practice, such a state of affairs is unimaginable, but that is not to 
say that it is not perfectly possible. Arguments about whether "zero 
bugs" are possible or not are silly. The Rev IDE has far too many bugs, 
that's all, and they need to be significantly reduced in order to 
provoke an urgently-needed qualitative change.


Here is yesterday's unsent mail:

Here we are, discussing IDE bugs again. Try using the Linux version of
Rev

But rather than stir up passions or comment upon the severe cases of
denial that key contributers to this list seem to suffer from, I want to
make a simple comparison.

Microsoft are known for the instability of their OS, particularly before
Win XP, with "blue screens of death" etc. However, I used VB6
intensively from the very beginning, and in my experience:

1) Never once did I find a single bug in the IDE
2) Never once did I need to participate in forums etc. in order to find
out how to do things.

Of course, there WERE bugs in VB6, since before they abandoned it they
got up to Service Pack 6 (SP6) in order to eliminate the less obvious
problems, but such bugs were beyond my experience.

Regarding technical help, I needed to go surfing on the Internet to find
out how to do things which were non-standard in VB, but apart from that
the manuals provided with VB were more than sufficient.

Some years ago now, I made my first contact with Rev, but only recently
have I found the courage to actually try and use it. My experience with
the IDE was totally different, because of the bugs I mean, not because
of the more complex way of producing programs.

At this moment, I am trying to move to Linux with a view to abandoning
Windows altogether. However, because of the frustration with the Rev
IDE, particularly in Linux, the thought "good old Microsoft" comes into
my head, and it makes my hair stand on end! How COULD a person like me
be provoked to think such a thing!

God only knows what programming systems some of you have used in the
past, but the fact that the Rev IDE compares favourably to them in terms
of stability is beyond my VB6 comprehension.

All of this is rather tragic. As I have said before, Revolution is a
great programming system with a potentially fantastic future. I love
Transcript, I love the IDE, and yes I even love the code editor. ALL
they have to do is debug the damn thing!

That said, Rev are obviously paying more attention to the stability of
the IDE than they have done in the past. But with the sins already
committed and accumulated, putting things right won't be all that easy I
imagine.

I say, let's help make Rev a really great product, which it has the
potential to be, not by the use of politics (which is the only
explanation I can find for some of the opinions I see on this list), but
by the use of hard work which is more appropriately directed towards
debugging in preference to the introduction of new features, at least
for an appropriate period.

Bob Warren


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Rob Cozens]

David, et al:

In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a drug 
induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an hourly basis!




For the past two weeks I have been scripting at least four hours daily 
using Rev v2.7 on Windows XP.


I have experienced no crashes--even when trying to force a crash for 
Rev Support.  I don't spot the bugs you mention because (a) I'm not 
using the same features your are, and (possibly) (b) because I allow 
most messages to pass up the message chain rather than trying to force 
them to a centralized object library.


This is not said to discredit you; but to point out that RunRev is so 
feature-rich and can be applied to such different applications that one 
developer's experience may be entirely different from another's.


Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Marielle Lange]

Dear Jacque,

I was very surprised to read about "The IDE guys use Rev like anyone  
else to work on the IDE"  given how unoptimized the code of the IDE  
is and the problems there are with objects as basic as table fields.  
I was even more surprised to see you write that "Runtime also takes  
consulting work, and all of that is done in Rev too". Sure, everybody  
suspects so... but I was surprised to see you write it as it's not so  
good to remind the customers we are that the company that is supposed  
to provide us with a great application development software put  
themselves in the role of our direct concurrents. It creates a  
conflict of interest by which the thing to do to secure their  
competitive advantage as consultant is to develop better tools for  
themselves and not release them (the exact opposite of what you  
expect them to do as developers of an IDE).


That point was made by Lynn, a few years ago, in response to a post  
from Scott Raney on the RB list ;-)


On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 "Lynn Fredricks"  wrote:
http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/realbasic-nug/2003-06/ 
msg01512.html


> One thing Ive found in talking with some companies that sell  
scripting
> products is that they often generate significant revenues off of  
custom

> development. This has sustained a number of products over the years,
> even though very little investment has taken place to upgrade or  
promote

> them. However I think this isnt healthy as:
>
> 1. It puts the vendor in direct competition with their own customers,
> other developers.
>
> 2. It often means innovations that should appear in future  
versions of
> products are often not released because it provides a strategic  
value to

> the vendor to not allow their own customers, or should I say
> competitors, access to it.
>
> 3. Tool selling needs promotion like any other. If your goals are not
> almost solely product oriented, then the tool almost never becomes
> pervasive nor the market sustainable in a healthy, competitive way.

On the other hand, it is not really fair, as it is easier to make big  
bucks with an applications that targets a specific market than with a  
generic application designer one. Maybe we can somehow "compensate"  
them for spending more time working for our benefit alone by doing  
what we expect them to do, share publicly some of the tools or re- 
usable components we may have written in the context of our  
consultancy works.  The advantages of open source is that it can be  
extensively tested early on without the bugs being the responsibility  
of runrev alone, and when stable, if quite popular, it can come to be  
integrated within the official IDE.


Incidently, Richard Gaskin proposed to work on the creation of Rev  
Open Source Editor, by the very cute name of ROSE, as a way to help  
define/refine frameworks for components interoperability with runrev.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revInterop/message/403

Marielle

PS. Humble library file processing functions available under a simple  
attribution license (free to copy, distribute, display, and perform  
the work; to make derivative works; to make commercial use of the work).

http://codes.widged.com/?q=node/658


 


Marielle Lange (PhD),  Psycholinguist

Alternative emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED],

Homepage
http://homepages.widged.com/mlange/
Easy access to lexical databaseshttp:// 
lexicall.widged.com/
Supporting Education Technologists  http:// 
revolution.widged.com/wiki/



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Smith]

How strange - I have absolutely no memory of installing it myself. I  
had the previous version, but not in my plugins folder, I think I  
just found it in the plugins menu when I installed 2.7. I guess my  
memory must be faulty. Anyway, it exists, is easy to get, and works.


Best,

Mark

On 7 Apr 2006, at 08:36, Ken Ray wrote:


On 4/6/06 9:14 PM, "Mark Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Um, in 2.7, in the plugins menu : "STSRevZilla", which is exactly
what you describe, made by Ken Ray, and very nicely done, too.


Thank you, but it's not by default in the build - you have to get  
it from

RevOnline, through RevNet, or from my web site:

  http://www.sonsothunder.com/devres/revolution/downloads/ 
RevZilla2.htm



Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

Hi,

But you said you are not using the IDE on a daily basis. If you were  
you'd see that cos they would smack you in the face on an hourly basis!


All the Best
Dave

On 7 Apr 2006, at 06:25, Dan Shafer wrote:


David.

And yet there appear to be other users here who haven't seen it and  
can't
reproduce it. I, for example, have been unable despite a number of  
tries to

get the blank script window false save alert to occur. I eliminated
Constellation from my setup to try this test and also to test the
colorization. I just don't see any problems, let alone any that  
make me

think the product is broken.

Now, please understand, David. I am decidedly *not* saying you're  
not seeing
these problems, with regularity. My point is that I don't think I'm  
either
blind or in a drug-induced haze and I'M NOT SEEING THESE BUGS. Thus  
the need

to report them with enough recipe detail for someone to reproduce them
reliably so they can be fixed.


On 4/6/06, David Burgun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a
drug induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an hourly
basis!





--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 03:38, David Vaughan wrote:



I'm sorry, but my expectations of software is higher.  I get so  
tired of
hearing B.S. and excuses as to why software isn't or can't be bug  
free.
Software is a creative product of staggering complexity, one whose  
reliability has increased enormously over the years. One way of  
putting it is that the boundaries of capability have been pushed  
over the years while the rise in bugs has been disproportionately low.


Over what years are you talking about? I really can't see this, for  
instance:


When I first started in programming we used assembler on Mini- 
Computers, and had to install the system at the User's site and it  
would take maybe a week to "commission" the system. During that week  
a post sales support person would test all the new features the  
customer had requested and wouldn't sign it off unless they worked  
100%. In this case it was back to the office and bug-fixing, until it  
did work. Bugs that slipped through the net were then fixed as soon  
as they were reported. Back then, programmers used to get paid a  
bonus for shipping bug free code, that bonus would decrease as the  
bug count increased. It was even possible to go into negative bonus  
which would be subtracted from bonus of the next project.


When I first started of the Mac, the software was must more robust  
and bug free.


To be honest I reckon the Internet is in part responsible for the  
buggy software we see today, it's way too easy to provide a bug-fix  
release! If the company had to produce, EPROMS, Floppy disks or CDs  
with bug containing software updates then they'd take more care about  
shipping bug-free software!


All the Best
Dave






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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Vaughan]

On 07/04/2006, at 15:46, Garrett Hylltun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


about what


David Vaughan wrote:


and I have replied off-list because this list is about software and,  
as Garrett himself says, he has made himself and his assumptions, not  
RunRev, the subject of this particular rant.


regards
David
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Ken Ray]

On 4/6/06 9:14 PM, "Mark Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Um, in 2.7, in the plugins menu : "STSRevZilla", which is exactly
> what you describe, made by Ken Ray, and very nicely done, too.

Thank you, but it's not by default in the build - you have to get it from
RevOnline, through RevNet, or from my web site:

  http://www.sonsothunder.com/devres/revolution/downloads/RevZilla2.htm


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

David Vaughan wrote:


On 07/04/2006, at 10:25, Garrett Hylltun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:


What it comes down to is money.

Yes, the cost and benefit analysis of which Richard spoke.


I'm sorry, but my expectations of software is higher.  I get so tired of
hearing B.S. and excuses as to why software isn't or can't be bug free.
Software is a creative product of staggering complexity, one whose 
reliability has increased enormously over the years. One way of putting 
it is that the boundaries of capability have been pushed over the years 
while the rise in bugs has been disproportionately low.


If that were only true.  Time has no role in this matter.  And the 
statement that bugs in software is decreasing is essentially enforcing 
my stance, meaning that if the reduction in bugs in software is 
occurring, it means that developers are getting on the ball.



I can accept bugs that slip by undetected
Look at the work being put in by others on the list right now, 
illustrating how hard it can be to define a bug. As I have said to you 
before, without a causal definition, the bug can not be fixed. Would you 
like to contribute to the effort, perhaps, rather than lambasting the 
work of others? Consider it a question of ethical behaviour :-)


I paid for what was suppose to be working software, not to seek and 
report bugs for the software.  In fact, if I start finding and reporting 
bugs, I want to be paid for it. And I would like to be paid for time I 
lose when Rev crashes or locks up and I have to kill it, and then have 
to recreate code that was lost due to Rev crashing or locking up.


And I'm only lambasting those who knowingly release software with bugs 
that should be fixed before they release.


Ethical behavior huh.  Charge a lot of money for software with known bugs.


How can someone sleep at night knowing they've release software with
bugs in it?  Don't you feel guilty about it?

My morals and virtues are not for sale.  If I can't do the job right,
then I'm not doing the job at all!
Why do you develop software, Garrett, since you have just said you will 
never do it? Or is it that you have no commercial software product and 
thus avoid the discovery of many bugs?


Why I develop software has no effect on this subject.  And I have 
released software as freeware and shareware and on contract.  And! I 
released my software with no known bugs!  The few bugs that did 
eventually crop up, were immediately fixed and an update released.  One 
of my programs had thousands upon thousands of users.  No bugs to 
report, all happy customers.


And every program developed for a client was treated the same way.

Figure that, a one man show, development, thorough testing, marketing, 
customer support and tech support, and still released a program that was 
free from any known bugs.  I'll have to assume that this is one those 
rare occasions in the software industry then.


So I'm not just talking without experience here.  I put my money where 
my mouth is.  No excuses, no BS.


But!  I will have to add to this that my software has never been on the 
scale of such things as Revolution.  I have never developed something as 
complex.  I will never try to make something that complex without the 
proper ability to develop it correctly and test it properly.  Hence "If 
I can't do the job right, then I'm not doing the job at all!"


Ok, so that addresses the Garrett factor, now back to the topic at hand.

-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

David.

And yet there appear to be other users here who haven't seen it and can't
reproduce it. I, for example, have been unable despite a number of tries to
get the blank script window false save alert to occur. I eliminated
Constellation from my setup to try this test and also to test the
colorization. I just don't see any problems, let alone any that make me
think the product is broken.

Now, please understand, David. I am decidedly *not* saying you're not seeing
these problems, with regularity. My point is that I don't think I'm either
blind or in a drug-induced haze and I'M NOT SEEING THESE BUGS. Thus the need
to report them with enough recipe detail for someone to reproduce them
reliably so they can be fixed.


On 4/6/06, David Burgun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a
> drug induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an hourly
> basis!
>



--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

Alex Tweedly wrote:
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> Alex Tweedly wrote:
>>
>> > However, as David says, that isn't the real problem. Sometimes, the
>> > script editor opens a script with the "Apply" button already enabled,
>> > and closing that window - without ever clicking anywhere within it -
>> > will give the dialog.
>> >
>> > Now created as BZ 3503, with a stack attached that reliably (on my PC)
>> > demonstrates the problem.
>>
>> Excellent. I hope they can reproduce it. Unfortunately I just
>> downloaded and tried your example stack on OS X and it doesn't happen
>> here. It may be that the bug only happens when the IDE is in a certain
>> state. If that is true, it will be hard to find.
>
>
> The plot thickens 
>
> this happens when I edit the script by   Ctrl-Alt-Hover over the button
> (i.e. using Jerry's Inspect Gadget).
>
> If I edit it by either
>   switching modes and right-click-menu / edit script
> or
>  using application browser
>
> then it does not happen (immediately).
>
> However, even in these latter cases, if I press and release the Ctrl key
> (cursor is not in the script window, no other key is pressed, no mouse
> click or movement - JUST the Ctrl key pressed and released), then the
> script is marked dirty.  (So the case of using Inspect Gadget is
> probably the same issue, because the Ctrl key is released after the
> editor starts up).
>
> That happens in both 2.6.1 and 2.6 - but does NOT happen in 2.5
>
>

Hm. Plot thickens more.I can't make it happen no matter how many keys I 
press. You're on Windows, right? I tried Control, but that didn't do it, 
so I tried Command (the Mac equivalent) and that didn't do it either. So 
I tried Cmd- and still nothing.


I know I've seen the "save" dialog when I shouldn't have, but there 
doesn't seem to be a reproducible recipe so far. Whatever it is, it 
doesn't appear to travel with the stack. Must be an IDE state thing.


This is using your sample stack, but I am being scrupulous about not 
reading the scripts. ;)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Wieder]

Jacque-

> Don't you remember the original web site? At the bottom of the page it
> said "We eat our own haggis."

> Which is way further than I care to go. :)

...they can have my share, too... I'll pass...

-- 
 -Mark Wieder
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Vaughan]

On 07/04/2006, at 10:25, Garrett Hylltun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


What it comes down to is money.

Yes, the cost and benefit analysis of which Richard spoke.

I'm sorry, but my expectations of software is higher.  I get so  
tired of
hearing B.S. and excuses as to why software isn't or can't be bug  
free.
Software is a creative product of staggering complexity, one whose  
reliability has increased enormously over the years. One way of  
putting it is that the boundaries of capability have been pushed over  
the years while the rise in bugs has been disproportionately low.



I can accept bugs that slip by undetected
Look at the work being put in by others on the list right now,  
illustrating how hard it can be to define a bug. As I have said to  
you before, without a causal definition, the bug can not be fixed.  
Would you like to contribute to the effort, perhaps, rather than  
lambasting the work of others? Consider it a question of ethical  
behaviour :-)



How can someone sleep at night knowing they've release software with
bugs in it?  Don't you feel guilty about it?

My morals and virtues are not for sale.  If I can't do the job right,
then I'm not doing the job at all!
Why do you develop software, Garrett, since you have just said you  
will never do it? Or is it that you have no commercial software  
product and thus avoid the discovery of many bugs?


David
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Smith]

Um, in 2.7, in the plugins menu : "STSRevZilla", which is exactly  
what you describe, made by Ken Ray, and very nicely done, too.


Best,

Mark

On 7 Apr 2006, at 03:05, Garrett Hylltun wrote:



Ya figure they would have made some sort of support reporting tool  
with Rev itself and included it with Rev,


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Smith]

You don't really have to bugzilla - I recently sent  a stack of mine  
to support with a detailed recipe for making Rev crash, details of my  
system etc. and within twenty-four hours, the redoubtable Marcus van  
Houdt replied that he had entered it into bugzilla, for the engineers  
to examine.


The recipe and accompanying details are necessary, though. 'Simply'  
reporting that there's a problem won't do much good (how could it?).


best,

Mark

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:47, Garrett Hylltun wrote:


Lynn Fredricks wrote:

Hi Dave,
Ok, a bit more on the Colorization bug and the Spurious Save  
Dialog.  I just did this:


Opened a script, some of the colorization worked but not all,  
e.g.  comments were colored, but words like "if" were colored but  
things like "me" were not.


I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.
Did you bugzilla this? The first step to recovery is admitting you  
never

bugzilla'd :-)


Shouldn't have to bugzilla, should be able to simply report it to  
support.


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Dan Shafer wrote:

Garrett..

Bugzilla IS reporting it to support. What I think you might mean to say --
and I agree, by the way -- is that it ought to be easier to report these
things. Bugzilla is over-engineered in my opinion. I've been forced to use
it on a couple of systems and always found it way too cumbersome.


Yes and no.  It is far too much to ask a user to go through really. 
It's a big turn off to users who don't have the time to be fiddling with 
such things.



OTOH, if what you meant was, "I should just be able to send an email to
support and tell them this is broken and then they should fix it," I can't
agree. Bugs reported with little specificity and no recipe for their
replication can be very hard indeed to identify, let alone squash. But you
know that, of course.


A client should not have to know everything about how to submit a bug, 
but yes, support does need as much info as possible.  So if the user did 
not submit enough information, then support should pole the user for 
more information.  Experienced users of course are more familiar with 
how the deal works and usually offer all the possible information they 
can think of initially, if not, support can pole the user for more.


Really though, it's this bugzilla thing that irks me the most.  One of 
the most annoying things I have ever come across for handling support 
issues.


Ya figure they would have made some sort of support reporting tool with 
Rev itself and included it with Rev, with all the bugs we get with Rev, 
might have been nice to supply such a program.  Ok, I'm being sarcastic 
a bit there, but really, a support reporting app with Rev would have 
been so much nicer, and not have to sign up for it either.  Then again, 
thinking of the docs browser, maybe a support reporting tool might not 
be such a good idea.


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:51, Dan Shafer wrote:


Garrett..

Bugzilla IS reporting it to support. What I think you might mean to  
say --
and I agree, by the way -- is that it ought to be easier to report  
these
things. Bugzilla is over-engineered in my opinion. I've been forced  
to use

it on a couple of systems and always found it way too cumbersome.

OTOH, if what you meant was, "I should just be able to send an  
email to
support and tell them this is broken and then they should fix it,"  
I can't

agree. Bugs reported with little specificity and no recipe for their
replication can be very hard indeed to identify, let alone squash.  
But you

know that, of course.


In the case of the bugs I mentioned, you'd have to blind and in a  
drug induced haze not to spot them! Some of them occur on an hourly  
basis!


If you had written a stack that had a bug in it like the colorization  
problem, would you really need to sell it to someone before you  
realized that there was a problem?


Anyway, all this is getting us nowhere. All I want is for RunRev to  
be more popular. I hate bitching about stuff like this, but every  
once in a while I get to boiling point, it's 2.58 am and I've been at  
it since 8:30 this morning. I'd reckon that at least an hour of this  
was wasted due to the points I mentioned plus a couple more that I  
just can't be bothered to mention now.


I'm off to bed. Night All!

All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Dan Shafer wrote:

I remember that comment. I'd blissfully forgotten it. Thanks a lot. Now
visions of haggis will plague me for days to come.

The current site says they use their own technology, but only (as far as I
can tell) on their consulting services page (about which you do NOT want to
get me started!).

I wonder how big the IDE team is.


One, and it's the single sheep who avoided becoming haggis thus far.  ;-)

-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

Garrett..

Bugzilla IS reporting it to support. What I think you might mean to say --
and I agree, by the way -- is that it ought to be easier to report these
things. Bugzilla is over-engineered in my opinion. I've been forced to use
it on a couple of systems and always found it way too cumbersome.

OTOH, if what you meant was, "I should just be able to send an email to
support and tell them this is broken and then they should fix it," I can't
agree. Bugs reported with little specificity and no recipe for their
replication can be very hard indeed to identify, let alone squash. But you
know that, of course.

On 4/6/06, Garrett Hylltun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Shouldn't have to bugzilla, should be able to simply report it to support.
>
>
>
--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:21, J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:00, J. Landman Gay wrote:

David Burgun wrote:
, but if I use the left hand panel to select a handler/function,  
it  marks it as dirty. Go figure!
except I just tried it again, now, same stack, same script and now  
it  doesn't mark it as dirty. Grrr


Right. So now...if you were trying to fix this bug, how would you  
proceed? ;)


It depends on whether I wrote it in the first place or not. Assume I  
didn't and have been given the source code, I'd take a look at it and  
see how well it was written. If we were written really badly then I'd  
re-write it using a software engineering techniques to make sure a  
minimum of bugs were actually added to the code in the first place  
and I'd build in instrumentation to allow the software to be verified.


If it were reasonably written, then in this case I'd add some code to  
dump out the "dirty" flag (assuming that's how it's done) at keys  
processing points and track it that way.


What I wouldn't do is release the code if there were a bug I could  
reproduce at will (like colorization).


I am guessing that the IDE is a real hod-podge of code that's been  
hacked about by a lot of different people and has gotton way too hard  
to do anything on now. I have seen this before at other places. C/C++  
(or low level language) programmers put together a cool high level  
system/language that allows "users" to write their own "programs".  
Then they need to actually use their language to implement something.  
They approach the problem with the attitude, I'm C/C++ programmer so  
coding in this high level language will be really easy and they just  
start slapping down the code. Soon they build a monster and find it's  
hard to control it! Exactly that happened years ago when I worked at  
IncoTerm, they had a Data Entry System and wrote a simple language  
for data verification, the low level programmers took on the job of  
building systems using their creation. It was a real mess and was  
eventually re-written by an applications programmer.


All the Best
Dave


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Lynn Fredricks wrote:

Hi Dave,

Ok, a bit more on the Colorization bug and the Spurious Save Dialog.  
I just did this:


Opened a script, some of the colorization worked but not all, e.g.  
comments were colored, but words like "if" were colored but 
things like "me" were not.


I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.


Did you bugzilla this? The first step to recovery is admitting you never
bugzilla'd :-)


Shouldn't have to bugzilla, should be able to simply report it to support.

-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:37, Dan Shafer wrote:

I remember that comment. I'd blissfully forgotten it. Thanks a lot.  
Now

visions of haggis will plague me for days to come.


as long as it's only visions and not the real thing!!! lol

All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

I remember that comment. I'd blissfully forgotten it. Thanks a lot. Now
visions of haggis will plague me for days to come.

The current site says they use their own technology, but only (as far as I
can tell) on their consulting services page (about which you do NOT want to
get me started!).

I wonder how big the IDE team is.

On 4/6/06, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dan Shafer wrote:
> > Jacque...
> >
> > Your comment below sort of astonished me. With all the reported issues
> with
> > 2.7, and earlier comments here that you can't expect every possible
> > variation to be tested (which is certainly true), I find it interesting
> that
> > you believe (or know?) that the Rev team uses the Rev IDE "daily." My
> > *impression* has been that they don't use it all that much, that most of
> > their time and attention is focused on writing (presumably) C/C++ code
> to
> > work on the engine.
>
> There are two groups of developers, the engine guys and the IDE guys.
> The engine guys write in C. The IDE guys use Rev like anyone else to
> work on the IDE. Plus, Runtime also takes consulting work, and all of
> that is done in Rev too.
>
> Don't you remember the original web site? At the bottom of the page it
> said "We eat our own haggis."
>
> Which is way further than I care to go. :)
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
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>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Alex Tweedly]

J. Landman Gay wrote:


Alex Tweedly wrote:

> However, as David says, that isn't the real problem. Sometimes, the
> script editor opens a script with the "Apply" button already enabled,
> and closing that window - without ever clicking anywhere within it -
> will give the dialog.
>
> Now created as BZ 3503, with a stack attached that reliably (on my PC)
> demonstrates the problem.

Excellent. I hope they can reproduce it. Unfortunately I just 
downloaded and tried your example stack on OS X and it doesn't happen 
here. It may be that the bug only happens when the IDE is in a certain 
state. If that is true, it will be hard to find.


The plot thickens 

this happens when I edit the script by   Ctrl-Alt-Hover over the button 
(i.e. using Jerry's Inspect Gadget).


If I edit it by either
  switching modes and right-click-menu / edit script
or
 using application browser

then it does not happen (immediately).

However, even in these latter cases, if I press and release the Ctrl key 
(cursor is not in the script window, no other key is pressed, no mouse 
click or movement - JUST the Ctrl key pressed and released), then the 
script is marked dirty.  (So the case of using Inspect Gadget is 
probably the same issue, because the Ctrl key is released after the 
editor starts up).


That happens in both 2.6.1 and 2.6 - but does NOT happen in 2.5


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

Dan Shafer wrote:

Jacque...

Your comment below sort of astonished me. With all the reported issues with
2.7, and earlier comments here that you can't expect every possible
variation to be tested (which is certainly true), I find it interesting that
you believe (or know?) that the Rev team uses the Rev IDE "daily." My
*impression* has been that they don't use it all that much, that most of
their time and attention is focused on writing (presumably) C/C++ code to
work on the engine.


There are two groups of developers, the engine guys and the IDE guys. 
The engine guys write in C. The IDE guys use Rev like anyone else to 
work on the IDE. Plus, Runtime also takes consulting work, and all of 
that is done in Rev too.


Don't you remember the original web site? At the bottom of the page it 
said "We eat our own haggis."


Which is way further than I care to go. :)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

David Burgun wrote:


On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:00, J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:


, but if I use the left hand panel to select a handler/function, it  
marks it as dirty. Go figure!


except I just tried it again, now, same stack, same script and now it  
doesn't mark it as dirty. Grrr


Right. So now...if you were trying to fix this bug, how would you 
proceed? ;)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Alex Tweedly]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

That said, Alex Tweedly has just proven me wrong and posted a bug to 
bugzilla that reproduces the problem in the editor without clicking on 
anything at all. He provided a sample stack. Thanks Alex. Good sleuthing.


Thanks. I just hope no-one within RR looks at that stack any more than 
they need to :-)


It's my "let's try that out in a junk stack" stack, (the file is 
actually called "newjunk.rev"), and it has in it the most awful 
collection of code I have ever seen - so bad it's embarrassing to let 
the script out of my hands, but it is in a good cause :-)


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:00, J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:
, but if I use the left hand panel to select a handler/function, it  
marks it as dirty. Go figure!


except I just tried it again, now, same stack, same script and now it  
doesn't mark it as dirty. Grrr


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

Alex Tweedly wrote:

> However, as David says, that isn't the real problem. Sometimes, the
> script editor opens a script with the "Apply" button already enabled,
> and closing that window - without ever clicking anywhere within it -
> will give the dialog.
>
> Now created as BZ 3503, with a stack attached that reliably (on my PC)
> demonstrates the problem.

Excellent. I hope they can reproduce it. Unfortunately I just downloaded 
and tried your example stack on OS X and it doesn't happen here. It may 
be that the bug only happens when the IDE is in a certain state. If that 
is true, it will be hard to find.



> Sometimes you get so used to problems that you no longer notice them, or
> develop work-arounds that become so ingrained that you forget you're
> doing them.

Routinely. ;) I'm not saying these things aren't annoying. The save 
dialog bothers me too, more times than not. It shouldn't be happening 
and I'm glad you reported it.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 02:00, J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:

Now, I suppose that "colorizing" a script *might* need to be   
"applied" but the button didn't enable at this point. If I open  
the  script and select colorize and then close the window, I   
don't get  the dialog. If I open the script, select colorize and  
then click on a  function in the script body, not via the handler  
list, the apply  button is not enabled. It's only when I select  
via the handler list.


I agree very much with Richard that a simple click in the editor  
should not mark the script as dirty. But when I look at your  
recipe, it says a click on a handler name in the list marks the  
script as dirty. What happens when you click on a handler name? The  
selection in the script editor changes, just as though you'd  
clicked in there yourself. The behavior is consistent. I'm not sure  
why clicking in the fuction wouldn't alter the selection, unless  
that was a handler that was already storing it.


I can double-click and select handler/function names, I can select  
areas of the script, walk the cursor up and down the script from top  
to bottom and it still doesn't mark it as dirty. I can select a  
handler from the Menubar and it doesn't mark it as dirty, but if I  
use the left hand panel to select a handler/function, it marks it as  
dirty. Go figure!


I reckon there is a whole lot of small bugs interacting.

All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Dan Shafer]

Jacque...

Your comment below sort of astonished me. With all the reported issues with
2.7, and earlier comments here that you can't expect every possible
variation to be tested (which is certainly true), I find it interesting that
you believe (or know?) that the Rev team uses the Rev IDE "daily." My
*impression* has been that they don't use it all that much, that most of
their time and attention is focused on writing (presumably) C/C++ code to
work on the engine. Changes to the IDE *other than bug fixes* have been
pretty infrequent relative to engine changes of late.

If you're right, then it's both encouraging (because they're obviously going
to find some stuff in the IDE that bugs them enough to fix it even if it
isn't in Bugzilla) and discouraging (because we keep finding so many things
in the IDE that bug us!)

(I don't encounter bugs in the IDE much because I use Constellation for
virutally all of my development work thee days, dropping back into the Rev
IDE only when I have to, which is becoming less and less the case.)

On 4/6/06, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Note also that the team uses Rev and all its features daily to develop
Rev's IDE, among other things. Therefore, if you are having a problem it
is likely localized to either your setup or your work style.
--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

David Burgun wrote:

Now, I suppose that "colorizing" a script *might* need to be  "applied" 
but the button didn't enable at this point. If I open the  script and 
select colorize and then close the window, I  don't get  the dialog. If 
I open the script, select colorize and then click on a  function in the 
script body, not via the handler list, the apply  button is not enabled. 
It's only when I select via the handler list.


I agree very much with Richard that a simple click in the editor should 
not mark the script as dirty. But when I look at your recipe, it says a 
click on a handler name in the list marks the script as dirty. What 
happens when you click on a handler name? The selection in the script 
editor changes, just as though you'd clicked in there yourself. The 
behavior is consistent. I'm not sure why clicking in the fuction 
wouldn't alter the selection, unless that was a handler that was already 
storing it.


I don't think colorization matters to the dirty flag, so you can 
eliminate that from the recipe.


That said, Alex Tweedly has just proven me wrong and posted a bug to 
bugzilla that reproduces the problem in the editor without clicking on 
anything at all. He provided a sample stack. Thanks Alex. Good sleuthing.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

Steve Knox wrote:

On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:36 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: 
It didn't seem to me that he was claiming that people don't exist,  
but merely that inventing a phrase to describe them which  
ultimately turns out to be roughly synonymous with "everyone who  
uses Rev" may not be as useful for strategic planning as existing  
language other successful companies use to describe market segments  
and personas.


Fair enough.  But it struck me that failure to properly identify a  
subset of users when trying to decide how to properly cater to this  
subset from a business standpoint is functionally equivalent to  
declaring them nonexistent. In other words, "We can't define this  
market, so we'll spend our time on the market we CAN identify".  That  
was the meaning I received.


Interesting.  I'm glad you wrote that.  I didn't get that impression, 
but I can understand how you did.


Hopefully Lynn will chime in here to clarify his thinking on this.


This is not to say there isn't big money to be made servicing the  
enterprise market. 


I wouldn't worry about that. While it's true that the low-end product 
has undergone quite a dynamic evolution from Express to DreamCard to 
Media, the consistency is that interest in that market.


But where does that leave me?  And if I can't get  
the warm feeling that future upgrades won't be much less than full  
enterprise pricing, then I'm not sure I want to commit to this  
development platform.


If you find Media's strange insistence on leaving its backdrop up too 
annoying, there's a giant gulf between that and Enterprise.  That gulf 
is filled by Studio, which is likely their most popular product given 
its price and features.  The DreamCard to Studio upgrade is only $199.


I don't understand the $49 price point myself, but no one's relying on 
me to find the people who will only pay $49 but still be willing to 
invest many hours learning a proprietary scripting language.  That job 
belongs to someone else


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

Richard Gaskin wrote:

David Burgun wrote:

One rule I try to always stick to, is that if there are bugs reported  
in a release, however minor, they are fixed before the next major  
release is made.


How many commercial products do you publish, and how large are they (KLOC)?

Of course we'd all like to aim for zero defects in our work, but in 
practice if a program is complex enough the developer will have to 
settle for less than being the only vendor to ship a program of that 
size bug-free.


[The ideas, opinions and statements made in the following rant are that 
of the author and not of Runtime Revolution Ltd.]


That doesn't make it an acceptable practice at all.  Developers can aim 
for higher standards and produce bug free software.  Excuses are just 
that, *Excuses*.  Just because you don't mind, or accept that in your 
mind that bug free is impossible, doesn't mean that it is impossible, 
only that you've accepted in your mind that it is impossible.


What it comes down to is money.  The need to get the cash flow going as 
quickly as possible.  Make the money now, fix the errors later.  But it 
never happens.  As the money trickles in, the desire to increase that 
trickle to a flow takes precedent over the need to fix the errors. 
Adding more new features becomes a priority in hopes to attract more new 
business, increase revenue, pile more bugs on top of those that already 
exist.  It eventually ends up being a feedback loop and the product 
never becomes exactly what it should be.


Complex or not, a developer has the chance to make it right the first 
time.  If the program is so complex that the developer can't make it 
right, then the developer is working beyond his/her abilities and should 
not take part in that project.  But again, there's the money!


I'm sorry, but my expectations of software is higher.  I get so tired of 
hearing B.S. and excuses as to why software isn't or can't be bug free.


And in my opinion, anyone knowingly releasing software that has bugs in 
it is (add your own explicit comments here).


I can accept bugs that slip by undetected, but once reported or found, 
they should be fixed before the next release, whether that release is an 
update or an upgrade, or in Runtime's case, the update that's actually 
an upgrade.


Yes yes, I've heard the stories before "I've been programming since the 
first abacus was made, hold PHD's in BS and Excuses and it's always been 
like this!"  Blah blah!  And these people make no efforts to improve 
these situations, instead they make excuses because they've been brain 
washed into thinking that this an acceptable practice or the money 
speaks louder to them than doing the job right.


How can someone sleep at night knowing they've release software with 
bugs in it?  Don't you feel guilty about it?


My morals and virtues are not for sale.  If I can't do the job right, 
then I'm not doing the job at all!  In my mind, it would be just like 
fraud, like selling bogus insurance, or claiming that the land you are 
selling is on the lake, only to find that there's a mud puddle in the 
back yard.


Hey, buy this new kick ass car!  It Rocks! (it's got cracks in the 
hoses, a leak in the gas line and the piston rings are totally sub 
standard, and brakes that might lock up at any time, and it's all 
straight from the factory ready for you to take home today)


You know, if the car companies did that, they'd be in court (and have) 
getting their hind ends handed to them!  But it's ok for a software 
developer to release software knowing there's bugs in it.


I sure hope Runtime doesn't make any software for the medical industry, 
or for any Space programs like NASA!  I could just picture the results 
of Runtime made software running a Space Shuttle... BOOM!  But it's 
acceptable of course.  Just couldn't work out that bug in the pressure 
balancing routine.  Oh well, let's add some new features and charge them 
for an upgrade now.


Grrr. I'd better go take a chill pill and stop ranting here... Sorry 
about that.  I just get so frustrated about this topic.


Don't get me totally wrong here.  I love the language.  Just can't 
accept all the bugs and the price I paid for buying all these bugs. 
Thought I was buying a programming language, not a bug farm.


Probably a good thing that I'm not in politics, they'd probably take me 
out before the elections instead of waiting until I got into office.  ;-)


-Garrett
"Is honor so cheap, or morals so meaningless, as to be sold at the price 
of instability or software riddled with bugs?  Forbid it! almighty 
developers.  I know not what crap others may put up with, but as for 
me... Give me Solid Software or Give me my Money Back!"

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Steve Knox]

On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:36 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Lynn Fredericks has said that inventive users like me don't really
exist, which does not inspire confidence.


The reaction to Lynn's post has been curious.  I read the same  
post, but I got a very different message.


It didn't seem to me that he was claiming that people don't exist,  
but merely that inventing a phrase to describe them which  
ultimately turns out to be roughly synonymous with "everyone who  
uses Rev" may not be as useful for strategic planning as existing  
language other successful companies use to describe market segments  
and personas.


Fair enough.  But it struck me that failure to properly identify a  
subset of users when trying to decide how to properly cater to this  
subset from a business standpoint is functionally equivalent to  
declaring them nonexistent. In other words, "We can't define this  
market, so we'll spend our time on the market we CAN identify".  That  
was the meaning I received.


What if IBM had said, "We can't really define potential PC users,  
because they could be anybody, and use them for anything, so let's  
just continue to build mainframes"?  What IBM did was build a  
machine, and adapted it later as the users adopted it.  When they saw  
that their sluggish bureaucratic structure couldn't adapt quickly  
enough to the market, it got out of the PC business.


What I'm saying is that maybe Rev should aim their strategy toward  
adaptability and away from tight market focus.


Lynn's post made it sound like they were going for tight market  
focus.  And if this is true, then they can't help but go the way of  
Big Blue in the software marketplace and place the primary focus on  
the enterprise.


This is not to say there isn't big money to be made servicing the  
enterprise market.  But where does that leave me?  And if I can't get  
the warm feeling that future upgrades won't be much less than full  
enterprise pricing, then I'm not sure I want to commit to this  
development platform.



I may find out that Rev Media will do what I want.  There has to be a  
way to turn off that background, though, because I need to have my  
app on the screen with my word processor.  I don't mind running in  
the player.  But if it's going to cost three hundred bucks to turn  
that backdrop off, then I have to look for something else.


Steve
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Alex Tweedly]

J. Landman Gay wrote:




For instance, straight off the top of my head:

1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close the  
script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.



I'm not sure this is really a bug. It is more a by-product of one of 
the features. Revolution saves not only your script, but also the 
location of the insertion point so that the next time you open the 
script it will  scroll automatically to where you were last working. 
This is a nice feature. So, if you close the script editor without 
clicking anywhere, you won't get the "save" warning. If you do click, 
it marks the script as dirty, stores the current cursor location, and 
asks if you want to save it.


Once you understand what's happening, it may not seem so terrible any 
more.



No, actually that would make it even worse.

If it was just a bug, then it would be (merely) annoying that no one had 
got around to fixing it . But if it's deliberate choice, than it's a 
terrible choice.


The reason it's so bad is that the "extra" question isn't just an extra 
step you need to go through - it's a chance to either lose changes you 
had intended to make, or a chance to make changes you didn't intend. 
I've had both happen .


You open a script, intending only to look for some problem - but while 
doing that you notice a bug in the code, unrelated to what you're 
looking for (e.g. a typo in a name). So you fix that and go on looking 
for the original problem. Then you try to close the window, you get this 
annoying window that you're used to seeing all the time - so you just 
hit "Discard". Oops.


Or, on the other hand, you accidentally type a character into the wrong 
window. But you "know" that you didn't make changes, so you just hit 
"return" which (by default) will apply the change.


However, as David says, that isn't the real problem. Sometimes, the 
script editor opens a script with the "Apply" button already enabled, 
and closing that window - without ever clicking anywhere within it - 
will give the dialog.


Now created as BZ 3503, with a stack attached that reliably (on my PC) 
demonstrates the problem.



2.  The script colorization doesn't work consistently.
3.  Sometimes the script editor/debugger loses it's mind and when 
you  click on the error it opens the *same* script in another window. 
If  you then edit this window and close it, then notice that the 
other  window is still open and close that one, you lose your changes!
4.  The debugger sometimes just plain refuses to breakpoint, even  
when you insert a "breakpoint" command into the script.

5.  The Menu Builder tool is really flakey.



These are mostly valid and I've also seen some of them. I can't 
comment on colorization because I abhor it and always turn it off. (It 
also increases the size of your stack on disk because Rev must store a 
duplicate htmltext copy.) 


I'd say that too is a bug. Colorization is (or should be) trivial enough 
to redo it when the script is opened in the editor (or even "on the 
fly"). Saving a colorized copy of a script is poorly thought-out bloat.


Note also that the team uses Rev and all its features daily to develop 
Rev's IDE, among other things. Therefore, if you are having a problem 
it is likely localized to either your setup or your work style. They 
need to know. For example, one reason my copy of the debugger would 
not break was because of a file path issue that existed only on my 
hard drive. No one else could reproduce it; I finally figured it out 
when I changed the name of a folder. Then I reported it.


Sometimes you get so used to problems that you no longer notice them, or 
develop work-arounds that become so ingrained that you forget you're 
doing them.


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 00:59, Lynn Fredricks wrote:


Hi Dave,


Ok, a bit more on the Colorization bug and the Spurious Save Dialog.
I just did this:

Opened a script, some of the colorization worked but not all, e.g.
comments were colored, but words like "if" were colored but
things like "me" were not.

I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.


Did you bugzilla this? The first step to recovery is admitting you  
never

bugzilla'd :-)




It's been this way for 2 years, do you really that that BZing it now  
will make any difference what-so-ever? I'd be willing to bet a round  
of beers that it wouldn't!


Plus, I'm not 100% what the bug actually is:


I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.



As far as I am concerned it shouldn't make the stack dirty. The  
colorization data is re-applied when a script is opened, no?


Cheers
Dave
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RE: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Lynn Fredricks]

Hi Dave,

> Ok, a bit more on the Colorization bug and the Spurious Save Dialog.  
> I just did this:
> 
> Opened a script, some of the colorization worked but not all, e.g.  
> comments were colored, but words like "if" were colored but 
> things like "me" were not.
> 
> I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.

Did you bugzilla this? The first step to recovery is admitting you never
bugzilla'd :-)


Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

Hi,

Ok, a bit more on the Colorization bug and the Spurious Save Dialog.  
I just did this:


Opened a script, some of the colorization worked but not all, e.g.  
comments were colored, but words like "if" were colored but things  
like "me" were not.


I selected Colorize, the apply button was disabled.

I hit a handler from the left had display of handlers to take me to a  
handler I wanted to look at and the apply button was enabled. I  
didn't type any text or click anywhere in the script body.


Now, I suppose that "colorizing" a script *might* need to be  
"applied" but the button didn't enable at this point. If I open the  
script and select colorize and then close the window, I  don't get  
the dialog. If I open the script, select colorize and then click on a  
function in the script body, not via the handler list, the apply  
button is not enabled. It's only when I select via the handler list.


There are other situations when this happens and they are difficult  
to spot, the worst one is when the Apply button is enabled as soon as  
the script opens.


incidentally, if I do save the script and then re-open it, the  
colorization has gone again!


There seems to be a number of bugs here, generally the problem is  
that the Script Editor loses track of when a script is dirty.


All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

Steve Knox wrote:


On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
With other products I manage we generally aim for zero defects only  
with issues that cause data loss, and evaluate the rest on a case- 
by-case basis in terms of customer value and company ROI.


This appears to be a decent strategy, if the evaluation of customer  
value bugs is done correctly.  Frequently it isn't.  For example,  
User Frustration bugs (such as the clunky/buggy script editor) should  
have a higher priority than they seem to command, in that lost sales  
and upgrades, and the resultant lowering of company reputation, that  
these bugs can generate can impact the company's bottom line in a  
very significant way.


Absolutely.  I believe editor/debugger issues demand top priority not 
only because of their critical role in the customer experience for a 
scripting product, but also because they are the linchpins for 
addressing any other issues in the IDE.



Management is an art, not a science.  Reducing it to a science takes  
the human element out of the process.  Doing that isolates the  
manager from the task.  This isolation creates arrogance, arrogance  
lowers morale, low morale lowers quality, and you get the point.


Exactly. Any single metric, like Bugzilla votes or list rants or repair 
cost, will likely fail.


Given Rev's historic reputation, they'll have to work harder than most 
in this area to overcome the stigma they've earned.  If recognized 
soberly this could bode well for us as well as for them.


...

Lynn Fredericks has said that inventive users like me don't really
exist, which does not inspire confidence.


The reaction to Lynn's post has been curious.  I read the same post, but 
I got a very different message.


It didn't seem to me that he was claiming that people don't exist, but 
merely that inventing a phrase to describe them which ultimately turns 
out to be roughly synonymous with "everyone who uses Rev" may not be as 
useful for strategic planning as existing language other successful 
companies use to describe market segments and personas.



I can get HyperCard to work for my application.  Not well, and  
running Classic will be a pain, but it will do it.  I was hoping to  
buy something faster and more modern with better graphics that would  
run on OS X.  Revolution has so far shown the greatest promise.


As much as I gripe about it, I still haven't found anything that 
provides anything close to the level of productivity for the work I do. 
 Hopefully you'll find the same.



But it's not there yet.  And judging from the attitude of some of the  
Rev dignitaries on this list, it may never be.


Just in case you meant to include me among "dignitaries", let me put 
your mind at ease:


I have no more influence at RunRev Ltd. than anyone else here.  My 
opinions are my own, and only that.  You can judge products developed by 
Fourth World based on what I write, but that's as far as it goes.


Sure, between myself and my clients we have more at stake with the Rev 
engine than most of RunRev's investors.  But no matter how much I have 
at stake it's been made clear to me that I have no more say with how 
RunRev prioritizes their business than they have with mine (actually 
less so, considering that they make the engine I use).  If I did you'd 
know, as it would be a very, very different company (maybe a lot of the 
folks here are glad I have no influence ).


That said, note that I continue to use Rev.  Even with warts and all, I 
haven't found anything else that provides the same ROI for me.  And I've 
looked.  And I continue to look.  And I still use Rev.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
 ___
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Mark Talluto]

On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:21 PM, David Burgun wrote:

Then they must be really patient people is all I can say. If I had  
to live with just of those minor bugs but had the source code so I  
could fix it, then I'd do in my spare time if necessary. It's like  
living with a squeeky door for 2 years and not bothering to get out  
the oil can!



Hi David,

Have a look at Constellation.  It is a replacement for the IDE's  
script editor.




Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 7 Apr 2006, at 00:02, Richard Gaskin wrote:


J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:
1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close  
the  script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.
I'm not sure this is really a bug. It is more a by-product of one  
of the features. Revolution saves not only your script, but also  
the location of the insertion point so that the next time you open  
the script it will   scroll automatically to where you were last  
working. This is a nice feature. So, if you close the script  
editor without clicking anywhere, you won't get the "save"  
warning. If you do click, it marks the script as dirty, stores the  
current cursor location, and asks if you want to save it.


It may not be a functional bug, but in the interest of thoroughness  
I'd  flag it as a design bug:


Most HIGs recommend prompting for changes only for content changes,  
and even when they recommend saving selection status they don't  
mark a document as dirty until there is also a content change.


The saving of the selection is handy, but without any changes to  
the script it's not worth tracking.


Making a selection doesn't cause it to display the dialog. When it  
happens you open a script and straight away the apply button is  
enabled, without doing *anything* to the script.


All the Best
Dave


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 6 Apr 2006, at 23:53, J. Landman Gay wrote:


David Burgun wrote:

Just look at the Script Editor! There are at least 10 bugs that I   
come across every day, and for 2+ years???


Did you put them into bugzilla? If you didn't, the team won't  
always know there is a problem.



For instance, straight off the top of my head:
1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close  
the  script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.


I'm not sure this is really a bug. It is more a by-product of one  
of the features. Revolution saves not only your script, but also  
the location of the insertion point so that the next time you open  
the script it will  scroll automatically to where you were last  
working. This is a nice feature. So, if you close the script editor  
without clicking anywhere, you won't get the "save" warning. If you  
do click, it marks the script as dirty, stores the current cursor  
location, and asks if you want to save

it.

Once you understand what's happening, it may not seem so terrible  
any more.




I just tried it and this isn't how it works on my system. I open a  
script, click in a few places but don't enter any data. The apply  
button is disabled and if I hit the close button in the window title  
bar is close ok.


When the spurious "Do you want to save?" dialog log appears, I've  
noticed that when I only the Script in question the Apply button is  
enabled straight away. At first I thought it was something to do with  
having text selected when the script was saved, but I just tried that  
and it worked. But, today, it must have happened at least 10 times.



2.  The script colorization doesn't work consistently.
3.  Sometimes the script editor/debugger loses it's mind and when  
you  click on the error it opens the *same* script in another  
window. If  you then edit this window and close it, then notice  
that the other  window is still open and close that one, you lose  
your changes!
4.  The debugger sometimes just plain refuses to breakpoint, even   
when you insert a "breakpoint" command into the script.

5.  The Menu Builder tool is really flakey.


These are mostly valid and I've also seen some of them. I can't  
comment on colorization because I abhor it and always turn it off.  
(It also increases the size of your stack on disk because Rev must  
store a duplicate htmltext copy.)


Point noted, thanks.

I've seen the double script window problem only a couple of times,  
but it needs to be reported. If you have a stack that reproduces  
the problem, I hope you will submit it so it can be fixed. I've  
never had any trouble at all with the menu builder, but if you can  
define the problem more concisely than "flakey" the team can look  
at it. It has always worked okay for me.


I  had it happen about 2 hours ago, I have no idea why it happened,  
but once it loses it mind like this, the only way out is to quit and  
start again. I can't reproduce it at will, when it does happen it's  
hard to know what to report. Today I'd being doing the same thing  
over and over in a "test" stack, trying something out. I was writing  
a little code and then testing it using buttons to execute pieces of  
the code and then looking at the variable window. It was easy to tell  
what had happened this time and get out of it by copying both scripts  
into a text window, quitting RunRev and then pasting back the real  
script, if it happens when there are a lot of scripts open it's not  
so easy to tell what has happened and then you can lose code.


Number 4, refusing to break, happens only under very particular  
circumstances. I've been able to reproduce it twice, reported it  
twice, and both times it was immediately fixed. In each case, it  
was a problem with a library or a backscript -- once with libURL  
and another time with the way the IDE was parsing file paths. I  
think it happens when a library is in use in a stack that is not  
open -- or when a backscript has been inserted -- and the library  
has a bug. The debugger will not trace into that script. The engine  
has two choices at this point; the first is to go into an infinite  
loop (that's what the MetaCard IDE does) and the other choice is to  
simply not break at all. Rev does not break at all. This is  
infinitely superior to a loop that you can't get out of. When I  
used to hit this problem in the MetaCard IDE I had to force-quit  
without the opportunity to save my work.


Yes, that's when I've seen it too mostly, but today it happened with  
a small 3 control script and no libraries. I put a breakpoint in the  
mouseUp handler of a button and it just wouldn't breakpoint. One  
thing I have noticed is that if you insert an "answer" command just  
before the breakpoint command and OK the dialog, it breakpoint's ok.


Careful debugging of your own library scripts can help, if that is  
where the problem is. If the problem is with one of the backscripts  
or libraries that Rev emp

Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

David Burgun wrote: 
1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close the  
script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.


I'm not sure this is really a bug. It is more a by-product of one of the 
features. Revolution saves not only your script, but also the location 
of the insertion point so that the next time you open the script it will 
  scroll automatically to where you were last working. This is a nice 
feature. So, if you close the script editor without clicking anywhere, 
you won't get the "save" warning. If you do click, it marks the script 
as dirty, stores the current cursor location, and asks if you want to 
save it.


It may not be a functional bug, but in the interest of thoroughness I'd 
 flag it as a design bug:


Most HIGs recommend prompting for changes only for content changes, and 
even when they recommend saving selection status they don't mark a 
document as dirty until there is also a content change.


The saving of the selection is handy, but without any changes to the 
script it's not worth tracking.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[J. Landman Gay]

David Burgun wrote:

Just look at the Script Editor! There are at least 10 bugs that I  come 
across every day, and for 2+ years???


Did you put them into bugzilla? If you didn't, the team won't always 
know there is a problem.




For instance, straight off the top of my head:

1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close the  
script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.


I'm not sure this is really a bug. It is more a by-product of one of the 
features. Revolution saves not only your script, but also the location 
of the insertion point so that the next time you open the script it will 
 scroll automatically to where you were last working. This is a nice 
feature. So, if you close the script editor without clicking anywhere, 
you won't get the "save" warning. If you do click, it marks the script 
as dirty, stores the current cursor location, and asks if you want to 
save it.


Once you understand what's happening, it may not seem so terrible any more.


2.  The script colorization doesn't work consistently.
3.  Sometimes the script editor/debugger loses it's mind and when you  
click on the error it opens the *same* script in another window. If  you 
then edit this window and close it, then notice that the other  window 
is still open and close that one, you lose your changes!
4.  The debugger sometimes just plain refuses to breakpoint, even  when 
you insert a "breakpoint" command into the script.

5.  The Menu Builder tool is really flakey.


These are mostly valid and I've also seen some of them. I can't comment 
on colorization because I abhor it and always turn it off. (It also 
increases the size of your stack on disk because Rev must store a 
duplicate htmltext copy.) I've seen the double script window problem 
only a couple of times, but it needs to be reported. If you have a stack 
that reproduces the problem, I hope you will submit it so it can be 
fixed. I've never had any trouble at all with the menu builder, but if 
you can define the problem more concisely than "flakey" the team can 
look at it. It has always worked okay for me.


Number 4, refusing to break, happens only under very particular 
circumstances. I've been able to reproduce it twice, reported it twice, 
and both times it was immediately fixed. In each case, it was a problem 
with a library or a backscript -- once with libURL and another time with 
the way the IDE was parsing file paths. I think it happens when a 
library is in use in a stack that is not open -- or when a backscript 
has been inserted -- and the library has a bug. The debugger will not 
trace into that script. The engine has two choices at this point; the 
first is to go into an infinite loop (that's what the MetaCard IDE does) 
and the other choice is to simply not break at all. Rev does not break 
at all. This is infinitely superior to a loop that you can't get out of. 
When I used to hit this problem in the MetaCard IDE I had to force-quit 
without the opportunity to save my work.


Careful debugging of your own library scripts can help, if that is where 
the problem is. If the problem is with one of the backscripts or 
libraries that Rev employs, then *report it.* I just did a couple of 
searches in Bugzilla, and did not find any bug reports submitted under 
either your name or email address. You can't expect fixes to things that 
aren't in the bug database.


Note also that the team uses Rev and all its features daily to develop 
Rev's IDE, among other things. Therefore, if you are having a problem it 
is likely localized to either your setup or your work style. They need 
to know. For example, one reason my copy of the debugger would not break 
was because of a file path issue that existed only on my hard drive. No 
one else could reproduce it; I finally figured it out when I changed the 
name of a folder. Then I reported it.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Steve Knox]

On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

With other products I manage we generally aim for zero defects only  
with issues that cause data loss, and evaluate the rest on a case- 
by-case basis in terms of customer value and company ROI.


This appears to be a decent strategy, if the evaluation of customer  
value bugs is done correctly.  Frequently it isn't.  For example,  
User Frustration bugs (such as the clunky/buggy script editor) should  
have a higher priority than they seem to command, in that lost sales  
and upgrades, and the resultant lowering of company reputation, that  
these bugs can generate can impact the company's bottom line in a  
very significant way.


Management is an art, not a science.  Reducing it to a science takes  
the human element out of the process.  Doing that isolates the  
manager from the task.  This isolation creates arrogance, arrogance  
lowers morale, low morale lowers quality, and you get the point.


A chief signal indicating when managers have fallen into this  
downward spiral appears when they begin listing all of the quite  
valid reasons why X can't be done, or why it doesn't matter.


What they're really saying is "I don't know how to do it, and I don't  
want anyone to think I'm incompetent, so I will redefine the task as  
Impossible, and thus my life will become much easier".


Consider the following:

"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do  
it, to him it is sin." James 4:17



My Revolution trial code expired today.  I am still not sure if I  
will buy it.  Studio is a bit too pricey for my means.  Media is not  
out yet, and I can't tell if it's restrictions will affect me.  Lynn  
Fredericks has said that inventive users like me don't really exist,  
which does not inspire confidence.  I was really hoping for a single- 
platform product like Studio priced in the $120 US range.


I can get HyperCard to work for my application.  Not well, and  
running Classic will be a pain, but it will do it.  I was hoping to  
buy something faster and more modern with better graphics that would  
run on OS X.  Revolution has so far shown the greatest promise.


But it's not there yet.  And judging from the attitude of some of the  
Rev dignitaries on this list, it may never be.


Steve
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

David Burgun wrote:


On 6 Apr 2006, at 21:29, Richard Gaskin wrote:
How many commercial products do you publish, and how large are they  
(KLOC)?

...

Someone once did a line count and I think they said there was
around 1.5 million lines of C/C++ code.

Sure we had bugs in there on the last release, but they were really  
obscure bugs that would happen once in a very long while and were not  
easily reproducible.


I was reading recently that large, well-managed open source projects 
have defect rates in the neighborhood of 0.4 - 0.6/KLOC (e.g, Apache is 
at 0.51).  Smaller projects by less experienced teams tend to be higher. 
 On a 1.5 MLOC code base a 0.5 defect density would mean 750 bugs.


Hats off to your team.  They sound light years ahead of industry averages.


Just look at the Script Editor! There are at least 10 bugs that I  
come across every day, and for 2+ years???


There's an irony about the script editor and debugger:

Since they're necessary to do anything else in Transcript, when they 
have problems then productivity in addressing any other scripted issue 
will be lower than by simply prioritizing the editor and debugger first.


Extra bonus points that a solid editor/debugger also makes customers 
happy too. :)


...
One of the really embarrassing things about this is, that a couple of  
times I have gone out on a limb and managed to get RunRev evaluated  
in a software engineering department, then the software manager comes  
along and asks for a demo of how "easy" it is to develop in RunRev  
and a breakpoint doesn't work or the script editor is flakey, then  
the manager is likely to say "it's a toy", bring it back when it's  
ready for prime time TV!


In the last 2 years, RunRev has lost at least 3 licenses because of  
lots of silly little bugs in the most visible of places and that's  
just my experience.


Yes, I have a few such stories myself

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 6 Apr 2006, at 21:29, Richard Gaskin wrote:


David Burgun wrote:

One rule I try to always stick to, is that if there are bugs  
reported  in a release, however minor, they are fixed before the  
next major  release is made.


How many commercial products do you publish, and how large are they  
(KLOC)?


I've worked on many commercial products that sold in the 10,000's or  
where bundled with printers, scanners, digital camera's etc. and were  
sold in the 100,000's. If there were bugs still in there after 2  
years then we wouldn't get the contract to bundle with the next  
printer, scanner or whatever. In terms of size, well I suppose the  
biggest was around 1,500 files in a CodeWarrior project (including  
libraries, resources etc.). Someone once did a line count and I think  
they said there was around 1.5 million lines of C/C++ code.


Sure we had bugs in there on the last release, but they were really  
obscure bugs that would happen once in a very long while and were not  
easily reproducible. I'm talking about bugs that are sooo obvious  
so as to smack you in the face on an hourly basis, and for 2+ years!


Of course we'd all like to aim for zero defects in our work, but in  
practice if a program is complex enough the developer will have to  
settle for less than being the only vendor to ship a program of  
that size bug-free.


HyperCard shipped with more than 500 known bugs, most OSes ship  
with thousands.  In terms of complexity Rev is somewhere between  
the two, a "virtual machine" of sorts, so we can expect some known  
bugs to persist.


Just look at the Script Editor! There are at least 10 bugs that I  
come across every day, and for 2+ years???


For instance, straight off the top of my head:

1.  I open a script and do nothing to the script, I then close the  
script and it gives me the "Do you want to save?" dialog.

2.  The script colorization doesn't work consistently.
3.  Sometimes the script editor/debugger loses it's mind and when you  
click on the error it opens the *same* script in another window. If  
you then edit this window and close it, then notice that the other  
window is still open and close that one, you lose your changes!
4.  The debugger sometimes just plain refuses to breakpoint, even  
when you insert a "breakpoint" command into the script.

5.  The Menu Builder tool is really flakey.

There are loads more but I really don't feel like typing them all  
again, anyone that uses the IDE on a daily basis knows them.


Just take number 2 above, if you developed an App and a part of it  
that was used all day every day had a similar bug in it, would you  
really want to leave it like that for 2+ years?


All I am saying is that, ok, a few bugs in the IDE isn't the end of  
the world, but come on, after 2+ years and they are still there?


One of the really embarrassing things about this is, that a couple of  
times I have gone out on a limb and managed to get RunRev evaluated  
in a software engineering department, then the software manager comes  
along and asks for a demo of how "easy" it is to develop in RunRev  
and a breakpoint doesn't work or the script editor is flakey, then  
the manager is likely to say "it's a toy", bring it back when it's  
ready for prime time TV!


In the last 2 years, RunRev has lost at least 3 licenses because of  
lots of silly little bugs in the most visible of places and that's  
just my experience.


All the Best
Dave

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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Richard Gaskin]

David Burgun wrote:

One rule I try to always stick to, is that if there are bugs reported  
in a release, however minor, they are fixed before the next major  
release is made.


How many commercial products do you publish, and how large are they (KLOC)?

Of course we'd all like to aim for zero defects in our work, but in 
practice if a program is complex enough the developer will have to 
settle for less than being the only vendor to ship a program of that 
size bug-free.


HyperCard shipped with more than 500 known bugs, most OSes ship with 
thousands.  In terms of complexity Rev is somewhere between the two, a 
"virtual machine" of sorts, so we can expect some known bugs to persist.


With my WebMerge product I generally meet the goal of zero known defects 
at final release, and my support costs are a fraction of industry 
averages as a result.  But WebMerge is essential a state machine, far 
less dynamic than Rev.


With other products I manage we generally aim for zero defects only with 
issues that cause data loss, and evaluate the rest on a case-by-case 
basis in terms of customer value and company ROI.


I once did contract work on a project used internally at a Fortune 500 
business where their company politics compelled them to spend 15-30% 
more addressing bugs than the bugs were costing them.  Not a smart 
business move.  When I presented the ROI data to upper management they 
immediately put a halt to it, but the middle managers I had to deal with 
daily resented me from that day forward, since it cut the budget for 
their departmental fiefdom.


For more war stories on software quality vs. ROI, and a few good tips:


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 6 Apr 2006, at 20:25, Garrett Hylltun wrote:


yoy wrote:

Sean Shao,
I had no bugs to complain about. I just wanted my v2.5 back after  
my laptop died. I got that version back.
It's not that it was a bug, just reading the listserve, 2.7 isn't  
"bug free" yet and not worth upgrading for my development purposes  
(which are always freeware).

Take your time and do it right, is my motto!


Dare I say what I think...  No, better not, already said what was  
on mind on this subject.


Ok, just one jab...

put varBugFree + varRevolution into varDistrobution



Amen to that!

The rest of the code was lost because the IDE locked up at that  
point and I did not have the chance to save before it locked up.  ;-)


I get the impression that the IDE takes second place over the Engine  
so bugs in the IDE go unfixed for a long time. For instance there are  
loads of small bugs in the Script Editor that have been there since I  
started using RunRev around 2 years ago. They drive me crazy on daily  
basis. All I can think is that the RunRev engineers have a lot of  
patience or they don't use the IDE to any degree, otherwise they  
would have fixed them long ago. I actually fixed a couple they drove  
me crazy, but of course each time I upgraded I found I had to re-do  
my fixes, so in the end I just gave up. It reminds me of when I first  
came to use Unix, we'd get a new distribution from the Unix-Bods  
(can't remember the name now) and there would loads of bugs. We'd fix  
them and send the fixes back. Then next release all the same bugs  
plus a few more would be back in the code. In the end we gave up too.


One rule I try to always stick to, is that if there are bugs reported  
in a release, however minor, they are fixed before the next major  
release is made. If you do this then you never have that many bugs on  
the list. Sure it slows down development, but it makes for a better  
product. This is especially true when you are making software that  
allows others to make software!


Just 5 euro-cents worth!

All the Best
Dave


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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Garrett Hylltun]

yoy wrote:

Sean Shao,

I had no bugs to complain about. I just wanted my v2.5 back after my 
laptop died. I got that version back.


It's not that it was a bug, just reading the listserve, 2.7 isn't "bug 
free" yet and not worth upgrading for my development purposes (which are 
always freeware).


Take your time and do it right, is my motto!


Dare I say what I think...  No, better not, already said what was on 
mind on this subject.


Ok, just one jab...

put varBugFree + varRevolution into varDistrobution

The rest of the code was lost because the IDE locked up at that point 
and I did not have the chance to save before it locked up.  ;-)


-Garrett
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Re: [Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[yoy]

Sean Shao,

I had no bugs to complain about. I just wanted my v2.5 back after my laptop 
died. I got that version back.


It's not that it was a bug, just reading the listserve, 2.7 isn't "bug free" 
yet and not worth upgrading for my development purposes (which are always 
freeware).


Take your time and do it right, is my motto!

All the best and continued success,

Andy
- Original Message - 
From: "Runtime Revolution Support" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Sean Shao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:45 AM
Subject: [Ticket#: 200604051641] Re: [OT] Articles to read



Dear Sean Shao,

Thank you for your request.

I've done some searching through our database, and I have been unable to 
find

any emails to support from you on these issues, or any bug reports in
bugzilla. If I've missed a bug report, please let me know the report 
number so

that I can draw it to the attention of our engineers.

Reporting a problem on the use-list is not an effective method of
communicating a problem to RR. If you are able, we ask that you report 
bugs

via bugzilla, where our engineers are active, see reports and take any
necessary action as and when they can. They also give you feedback on what
they have done.

http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla

If for any reason you can't use bugzilla (its not for everybody, we know
that), please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with as much detail about the
problem as you can, and we will investigate, and make the report to 
bugzilla

for you.

We do, actually, value feedback from our customers very much, and we do
listen, and we do take action. We have two clear channels that you can
communicate with us through, and get a response. We can't take action if 
we
don't know there is a problem. We can't always take action on the problem 
once
we know about it in the way that you would like, but you will at least get 
a

response and an explanation.

I hope this helps,

Regards,

Heather

"Sean Shao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Considering that we're all developers, I thought that these two articles
would be of some interest to someone out there. I CC'd them to Lynn
Fredricks because he seems like he wants to make some changes at RRLtd 
and I


also forwarded to support because someone needs to be woken up over 
there.


http://asktog.com/columns/068priceOfNotListening.html
http://asktog.com/columns/037TestOrElse.html

_
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/






Heather Nagey
--
Runtime Support Team ~ http://www.runrev.com
Runtime Revolution ~ User-Centric Development Tools
--


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[Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[Runtime Revolution Support]

Dear Sean Shao,

Thank you for your request.

I've done some searching through our database, and I have been unable to find
any emails to support from you on these issues, or any bug reports in
bugzilla. If I've missed a bug report, please let me know the report number so
that I can draw it to the attention of our engineers.

Reporting a problem on the use-list is not an effective method of
communicating a problem to RR. If you are able, we ask that you report bugs
via bugzilla, where our engineers are active, see reports and take any
necessary action as and when they can. They also give you feedback on what
they have done.

http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla

If for any reason you can't use bugzilla (its not for everybody, we know
that), please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with as much detail about the
problem as you can, and we will investigate, and make the report to bugzilla
for you.

We do, actually, value feedback from our customers very much, and we do
listen, and we do take action. We have two clear channels that you can
communicate with us through, and get a response. We can't take action if we
don't know there is a problem. We can't always take action on the problem once
we know about it in the way that you would like, but you will at least get a
response and an explanation.

I hope this helps,

Regards,

Heather

"Sean Shao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Considering that we're all developers, I thought that these two articles 
> would be of some interest to someone out there. I CC'd them to Lynn 
> Fredricks because he seems like he wants to make some changes at RRLtd and I 
> 
> also forwarded to support because someone needs to be woken up over there.
> 
> http://asktog.com/columns/068priceOfNotListening.html
> http://asktog.com/columns/037TestOrElse.html
> 
> _
> Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> 
> 



Heather Nagey
--
Runtime Support Team ~ http://www.runrev.com 
Runtime Revolution ~ User-Centric Development Tools
--


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