SV: [OT] What slows you down?
- jsp tags
It was just confusing and time consuming to learn and do alot of
c:if/c:forEach/c:choose and make it right. In the beginning I just escaped into
java a lot % %
-struts tags
I still hate tags like the s:select mixed with i18n, ognl, converters and the
lot.
1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 error, 1 type error, and you get NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER what
is wrong.
-OGNL
%{}, #{}, ${} ... ? what eh ... uh. Still don't understand the difference
and alot of the complex syntax I find all over the place.
1 word - crap
Another word - total undebuggable
Why on earth do we have to do a lot of logic in jsp files with tags and el??
Gawd I hate that. Then you introduce ognl and struts tags cause el isn't good
enough. It's a huge mess. Add sitemesh or whatever
Boohoo - the web monkey use dreamweaver and can't code. He needs tags boohoo.
But he does javascript and ajax, or pretty soon is out of work if he doesn't.
-XML
Xml is a nice tool/format/thingy to save data in. If I ever get a hold of the
jerk that suggested to create a semi-sub-scripting-language in xml ...
1 error, 1 type error, 1 misunderstanding ... you will definitely not get a
understandable error message if you get one at all
I think xml was made with the intention that there should be a nice and easy
tool on top you could play with, and that tool should save to xml, and then
read from it again... not to hand code the crap with an
obscure-hello-world-basic-documentation.
-Exceptions
Struts eats exceptions, and spit them out into something else. I have wasted
hours in chasing exception I believed had to do with input, jsp, tags, and it
turned out to be an simple sql exception from layers away. Don't ask me why or
how.
-SET/GET types on objects
Have to be the same ... got it. F#ยค% obscure error msg - wasted a few days on
that one.
-Date sucks
I'm an non-American ... so we got different standards. Cool.
Ok, wasn't that hard to get yodatime to work, and an converter ... well I got
help on that one, but I understand there is a lot of fuzz with it and struts
tags.
-Validation
Is done by xml - great. Did I just said I hate xml?? No??
I HATE XML PROGRAMMING - ITS UNDEBUGGABLE.
How nice how the validator sits in between the view and action object and fixes
itself.
What if I want to reuse this code?? What if I want to make logic that is based
on result from validation, and type of validation error? I don't know how. I
write my own validator.
Pointless.
-Converters
Nice idea ... when it works. If not I make my domain objects to take/return
strings, and I make my own home/hand -made conversion. Pointless...
-Annotations
Poison.
And I have seen baaad annotation hell done in struts... Say no more.
-Debugging.
What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a
small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it.
What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
What parameters are coming in from the post/get - parameterinterceptor, and
what is it trying to do? I don't know...
Littering the code with System.out doesn't quite work, but you get surprised
sometimes on how stuff seems to work.
Debugging just sucks.
Exceptions generate enormous lists which you got to be quite expert to
understand.
Coding in struts2 is 5min coding - 1h error hunting. I need to do this and that
= 2h googling or code fiddling, 5min coding, 1h error hunting.
-- Struts2 sucks
I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. I got initially expert help
to boost my knowledge, but there is a long way until I can say Struts2 speeds
up my development. 98% of my time is spent on google/error-hunting.
Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - they suck. Or in
other words - they didn't give me any useful information.
It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then
they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take
forever.
I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. He introduces struts
as a great framework - which it is in the hand of an expert. He does his job,
then he quits. Later he is re-hired as an expensive consultant. I for sure are
not advocating struts2.
But 98% of devs are not experts... prove me wrong.
Struts2 is by no way easy.
Java web is actually not easy at all if you start from scratch. My background
is college and php. With php you download a LAMP/WAMP package and you can start
code very fast with no brains at all. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in
php. Great doc page too (php.net).
With java you got to setup the right java, eclipse, tomcat, drivers, configure
them and make them work. JRE? JDK? JavaSE or JavaEE? Java 1.5 or Java 5? Sun
pages is a mixture of mess.
You have to follow java web standards in how an web app should be organised in
folders to be deployed. There is so much that can go wrong - and you just give
up.
You have to learn java, jsp, servlet, java xml config,
SV: [OT] What slows you down?
As I said: I'm not that a great coder, and not an expert php or java coder. Coding pure logic in java or php goes at a nice pace. Once you are in the loop where you got a variable, object, list/map/tree of stuffs - and need that converted to something html'ish ... then for me php is far easier to do that with. Struts2 is not. And I have max 2y on-and-off hobby experience with php. Zend isn't silver bullet AS I SAID, but it's definitely easier. Notice how random coders jumps on it wagon... how many kids jumps on struts?? More or less none... Are we talking about being productive? Make stuff fast? Time to deliver? Or are we talking about something else? Let me Quote: Some frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to time to market concerns and have been gathering many followers. BECAUSE ITS EASY TO GET STUFF DONE. DON'T NEED TO BE GEEKISH or 3y+ EXPERIENCE. You even don't need college... sad really. I just stated that struts2 are not making me productive. Notice how often I say it's difficult to find and fix problems related to X. PHP + notepad++ - no debuggers or ide. No particular tools. But I get stuff done... even I'm amazed, cause look at php as a language or zend as framework - certainly not pretty. I just made a huge rant on java and struts not being productive for me. If you get exception error because of 3 words - that's your problem. Someone asked me what slowed me down - I answered. Maybe my answers is just noob errors or whatever, I don't care. I just don't think or feel I'm productive. Others here favour JSF... I don't see ppl being productive with that either. Sure it got some nice stuff I want to try, but that's pretty much it. Maybe in 5y I'm doing magic and got total different problems, but that's then. Not now. Mvh Frode T. Johansen -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Musachy Barroso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 20. juni 2008 17:14 Til: Struts Users Mailing List Emne: Re: [OT] What slows you down? I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is friday after all, but here: Look to php zend framework that was it for me, lol. musachy Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
Musachy abused the first rule, dont' feed the trolls... :) Subject: SV: [OT] What slows you down? Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:27:10 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user@struts.apache.org As I said: I'm not that a great coder, and not an expert php or java coder. Coding pure logic in java or php goes at a nice pace. Once you are in the loop where you got a variable, object, list/map/tree of stuffs - and need that converted to something html'ish ... then for me php is far easier to do that with. Struts2 is not. And I have max 2y on-and-off hobby experience with php. Zend isn't silver bullet AS I SAID, but it's definitely easier. Notice how random coders jumps on it wagon... how many kids jumps on struts?? More or less none... Are we talking about being productive? Make stuff fast? Time to deliver? Or are we talking about something else? Let me Quote: Some frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to time to market concerns and have been gathering many followers. BECAUSE ITS EASY TO GET STUFF DONE. DON'T NEED TO BE GEEKISH or 3y+ EXPERIENCE. You even don't need college... sad really. I just stated that struts2 are not making me productive. Notice how often I say it's difficult to find and fix problems related to X. PHP + notepad++ - no debuggers or ide. No particular tools. But I get stuff done... even I'm amazed, cause look at php as a language or zend as framework - certainly not pretty. I just made a huge rant on java and struts not being productive for me. If you get exception error because of 3 words - that's your problem. Someone asked me what slowed me down - I answered. Maybe my answers is just noob errors or whatever, I don't care. I just don't think or feel I'm productive. Others here favour JSF... I don't see ppl being productive with that either. Sure it got some nice stuff I want to try, but that's pretty much it. Maybe in 5y I'm doing magic and got total different problems, but that's then. Not now. Mvh Frode T. Johansen -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Musachy Barroso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 20. juni 2008 17:14 Til: Struts Users Mailing List Emne: Re: [OT] What slows you down? I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is friday after all, but here: Look to php zend framework that was it for me, lol. musachy Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchcashback
Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Frode T. Johansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Debugging. What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it. What does the valuestack contains? I don't know... Or use s:debug/. What parameters are coming in from the post/get - parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I don't know... Use a proxy, live headers, etc. AFAIC it's not the responsibility of the framework to show what's on the wire. -- Struts2 sucks I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. Just to provide a counter-anecdote, we've been happier with S2 than almost anything else in Java land so far. Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - Maybe don't say that too loudly since some of us are the authors of those books. It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take forever. Again, counter-anecdote; I've worked with three outside companies and have had them up-and-running on S2 in under a week. (They were already Java houses), including simplistic Spring usage, which was also new to them. I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. Guess what: S2 was made by geeks trying to get work done. Most of us don't get rich from working on open-source projects, and quite frankly I take a little umbrage at the insinuation, so I'll cut this short--it's too close to the weekend to be baited. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php. And this is a *good* thing? If you think inheriting an S2 project is difficult try dealing with an ad-hoc PHP app: there's very, very little worse in the world of computers than PHP apps. As far as PHP-the-language goes, don't even get me started. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
lol, another one that didn't read the sign ;) musachy On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Dave Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Frode T. Johansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Debugging. What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it. What does the valuestack contains? I don't know... Or use s:debug/. What parameters are coming in from the post/get - parameterinterceptor, and what is it trying to do? I don't know... Use a proxy, live headers, etc. AFAIC it's not the responsibility of the framework to show what's on the wire. -- Struts2 sucks I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. Just to provide a counter-anecdote, we've been happier with S2 than almost anything else in Java land so far. Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - Maybe don't say that too loudly since some of us are the authors of those books. It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take forever. Again, counter-anecdote; I've worked with three outside companies and have had them up-and-running on S2 in under a week. (They were already Java houses), including simplistic Spring usage, which was also new to them. I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. Guess what: S2 was made by geeks trying to get work done. Most of us don't get rich from working on open-source projects, and quite frankly I take a little umbrage at the insinuation, so I'll cut this short--it's too close to the weekend to be baited. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in php. And this is a *good* thing? If you think inheriting an S2 project is difficult try dealing with an ad-hoc PHP app: there's very, very little worse in the world of computers than PHP apps. As far as PHP-the-language goes, don't even get me started. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone? Pink Floyd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SV: [OT] What slows you down?
--- On Fri, 6/20/08, Musachy Barroso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lol, another one that didn't read the sign ;) I'm really bad at that game; they get me every time. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
