- jsp tags
It was just confusing and time consuming to learn and do alot of
c:if/c:forEach/c:choose and make it right. In the beginning I just escaped into
java a lot <% %>
-struts tags
I still hate tags like the s:select mixed with i18n, ognl, converters and the
lot.
1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 error, 1 type error, and you get NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER what
is wrong.
-OGNL
%{}, #{}, ${} ... ????? what eh ... uh. Still don't understand the difference
and alot of the complex syntax I find all over the place.
1 word - crap
Another word - total undebuggable
Why on earth do we have to do a lot of logic in jsp files with tags and el??
Gawd I hate that. Then you introduce ognl and struts tags cause el isn't good
enough. It's a huge mess. Add sitemesh or whatever....
Boohoo - the web monkey use dreamweaver and can't code. He needs tags boohoo.
But he does javascript and ajax, or pretty soon is out of work if he doesn't.
-XML
Xml is a nice tool/format/thingy to save data in. If I ever get a hold of the
jerk that suggested to create a semi-sub-scripting-language in xml ...
1 error, 1 type error, 1 misunderstanding ... you will definitely not get a
understandable error message if you get one at all....
I think xml was made with the intention that there should be a nice and easy
tool on top you could play with, and that tool should save to xml, and then
read from it again... not to hand code the crap with an
obscure-hello-world-basic-documentation.
-Exceptions
Struts eats exceptions, and spit them out into something else. I have wasted
hours in chasing exception I believed had to do with input, jsp, tags, and it
turned out to be an simple sql exception from layers away. Don't ask me why or
how.
-SET/GET types on objects
Have to be the same ... got it. F#¤% obscure error msg - wasted a few days on
that one.
-Date sucks
I'm an non-American ... so we got different standards. Cool.
Ok, wasn't that hard to get yodatime to work, and an converter ... well I got
help on that one, but I understand there is a lot of fuzz with it and struts
tags.
-Validation
Is done by xml - great. Did I just said I hate xml?? No??
I HATE XML PROGRAMMING - ITS UNDEBUGGABLE.
How nice how the validator sits in between the view and action object and fixes
itself.
What if I want to reuse this code?? What if I want to make logic that is based
on result from validation, and type of validation error? I don't know how. I
write my own validator.
Pointless.
-Converters
Nice idea ... when it works. If not I make my domain objects to take/return
strings, and I make my own home/hand -made conversion. Pointless...
-Annotations
Poison.
And I have seen baaaaaaad annotation hell done in struts... Say no more.
-Debugging.
What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have a
small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it.
What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
What parameters are coming in from the post/get -> parameterinterceptor, and
what is it trying to do? I don't know...
Littering the code with System.out doesn't quite work, but you get surprised
sometimes on how stuff seems to work.
Debugging just sucks.
Exceptions generate enormous lists which you got to be quite expert to
understand.
Coding in struts2 is 5min coding - 1h error hunting. I need to do this and that
= 2h googling or code fiddling, 5min coding, 1h error hunting.
-- Struts2 sucks
I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. I got initially expert help
to boost my knowledge, but there is a long way until I can say Struts2 speeds
up my development. 98% of my time is spent on google/error-hunting.
Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - they suck. Or in
other words - they didn't give me any useful information.
It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then
they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take
forever.
I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. He introduces struts
as a great framework - which it is in the hand of an expert. He does his job,
then he quits. Later he is re-hired as an expensive consultant. I for sure are
not advocating struts2.
But 98% of devs are not experts... prove me wrong.
Struts2 is by no way easy.
Java web is actually not easy at all if you start from scratch. My background
is college and php. With php you download a LAMP/WAMP package and you can start
code very fast with no brains at all. Stupid ppl can start code very fast in
php. Great doc page too (php.net).
With java you got to setup the right java, eclipse, tomcat, drivers, configure
them and make them work. JRE? JDK? JavaSE or JavaEE? Java 1.5 or Java 5? Sun
pages is a mixture of mess.
You have to follow java web standards in how an web app should be organised in
folders to be deployed. There is so much that can go wrong - and you just give
up.
You have to learn java, jsp, servlet, java xml config, jsp tags in order to get
up an hello world. Add struts2, struts2 xml, struts2 tags, ognl, etc etc
Html, css, javascript...
There are separate books for each of those I just mentioned. Find 10 errors.
If a new guy starting tomorrow in my job - with no struts skillz. Will he
struggle? Will he get job done? Is my job interested in hiring this kind of
ppl? My job want stuff produced, not students that remain as students for 1-2+
years
I want a simple world. Its 2008.
Look to php zend framework - they got a massive site that pretty much talks to
an non-expert. Tutorials are pretty step-by-step which covers folder layout,
config and everything. Its easy to take an example/demo -> unzip and run in
apache. Then add/change stuff is dead easy.
Im not saying zend is everything, but I had a crud page up and running dead
fast with db connection.
Only downside with php is that it's not enterprise mature, and has not got rid
of easy-to-make-security-holes problems. And it doesn't scale that well in
medium-large production environment since php introduce great freedoms to do
spaghetti. And many php devs sucks... But I sure as hell prefer WAMP +
notepad++ over any java crap. Cause I can get stuff done.
Struts have the benefit of making programming more structured. It's easy to
make a huge mess in servlet/jsp programming that takes ages to rewrite. It
separates the coding well. You can much easier have 2 different teams working
on each part of an app without generating too much noise.
Mvh
Frode T. Johansen
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] På vegne av Ted
> Husted
> Sendt: 20. juni 2008 13:43
> Til: Struts Users Mailing List
> Emne: [OT] What slows you down?
>
> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>
> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>
> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
> intractable problems with web development itself?
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
> -Ted.
>
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