Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
At 06:40 23/02/2012 -0900, Marc Grober wrote: Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines ... I don't get involved in these disputes, mainly because they are characterised by intransigence and _ad hominem_ arguments - and I won't do so now. But you simply cannot expect to argue based on a falsehood! When you wrote this, the guidelines (at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette ) did not suggest top posting, but rather anything but: ... please do interspersion with trimming [...]. For a simple reply, this is equivalent to bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. But since then someone has changed this to remove any sort of guidance at all. Perhaps you made the change?! Or perhaps the original culprit did? It's a fun system - isn't it? - when those who are directed to guidelines and find they don't like them simply change them! Brian Barker -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi Marc, I think that the main question is : want you help someone in this list or not? In Italy we say that No one is born master... I' a software developer but I don't know all languages that are available in the world. Each person expresses their thoughts to the best of their abilities... and if you are a master you need to understand that. A master that is an island is not useful... you can tell me about your knowledge, maybe I can tell you about my patience :) If you hate messages that need long scroll down... simply ignore them, but remember that user mailing lists are used worldwide by juveniles (if I'm an advanced user, I don't need a mailing list) ;-) Il 23/02/2012 16.40, Marc Grober ha scritto: One reason I am not more involved in this community is the incessant whining from the juveniles. Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines as my comment would not be really benefitted by a long scroll down a thread of shame, lol Chin up, Tom, and hope that some may find Apache a snugger fit ;-) I rarely take much notice of those focused on puffing themselves up; lack of O2 usually brings them to their senses. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Il 22/02/2012 20:41, Mirosław Zalewski ha scritto: On 22/02/2012 at 20:19, Tom Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Perhaps you have encountered that somewhere: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really. I hate bottom (!) posting because I think it is the most unnatural one! When I speak to you I normally answer to your question without (!) repeating your question first!!! This is The natural way, isn't it??? When I read one mail (in a mailing list too!!!) I normally have already red all the previous ones!!! All the previous ones!!! If I failed to do it, I already would have to know that I'll must start from bottom... Full stop, imho! I think bottom posting is born only (!) to enable people to start reading a thread from any point and not from the start... But what we yield is far from be a natural way...: when I read one mail I expect to read the answer to the the previous one, that is supposed to already be red! My 2 euro cents! ;-) Carlo -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) I did not change them but i applaud whoever did. The main argument that the bottom-poster-fanatics use in order to demand that everyone else is only allowed to bottom post is that the guidelines suggest doing so. That is clearly not working so the guidelines needed to be changed to support what the target-market of this list are more comfortable with. In my opinion people should be allowed to post as they want without being subjected to the bullying of the bottom-posters. That view seems to be supported by everyone that top-posts that has commented in this thread. Can we not accept that the main purpose of this thread is to answer people's questions and make them feel comfortable about asking questions? Clearly not. It seems the main aim of this list, according to the bottom-posters, is 1. to keep subjecting us all to this pointless argument, 2. to bully anyone that doesn't obey them 3. to make people uncomfortable about asking questions for fear of intimidation. If the guidelines now say that only top posting is acceptable then that is great because none of the top-posters are going to use those guidelines to bully people. None of the top-posters are going to claim that the guidelines are rules and not really guidelines at all. Regards from Tom :) --- On Fri, 24/2/12, Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Friday, 24 February, 2012, 8:42 At 06:40 23/02/2012 -0900, Marc Grober wrote: Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines ... I don't get involved in these disputes, mainly because they are characterised by intransigence and _ad hominem_ arguments - and I won't do so now. But you simply cannot expect to argue based on a falsehood! When you wrote this, the guidelines (at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette ) did not suggest top posting, but rather anything but: ... please do interspersion with trimming [...]. For a simple reply, this is equivalent to bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. But since then someone has changed this to remove any sort of guidance at all. Perhaps you made the change?! Or perhaps the original culprit did? It's a fun system - isn't it? - when those who are directed to guidelines and find they don't like them simply change them! Brian Barker -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
I think nobody needs this improductive discussion. There too much places in the project where put the efforts. What is the freedom? You like top, do it. You like bottom, do it. You don't like top, don't read messages with top. You don't like bottom, don't read messages with bottom. You like the freedom. Do what you like. Let others to do what they like. Miguel Ángel. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Actually, I was referring to the guidelines as originally stated. The guidelines have apparently been changed twice: once to add something about top posting and once to add a reference to the same source cited by the article generally. I was not engaged in any falsehood; I just don't check guidelines weekly And it sounds like you have a personal problem :-) On Feb 23, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com wrote: At 06:40 23/02/2012 -0900, Marc Grober wrote: Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines ... I don't get involved in these disputes, mainly because they are characterised by intransigence and _ad hominem_ arguments - and I won't do so now. But you simply cannot expect to argue based on a falsehood! When you wrote this, the guidelines (at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette ) did not suggest top posting, but rather anything but: ... please do interspersion with trimming [...]. For a simple reply, this is equivalent to bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. But since then someone has changed this to remove any sort of guidance at all. Perhaps you made the change?! Or perhaps the original culprit did? It's a fun system - isn't it? - when those who are directed to guidelines and find they don't like them simply change them! Brian Barker -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Stefano, I have been using listservs for more than 40 years and this is the only list I have ever been on where some 10% of the traffic is this thrashing over top posting. Yes, I regularly trim or intersperse comment, but when necessary in my opinion, or warranted, a portion of my comment may be top posted for the reasons set forth at all the usual sites, a practice That Is Not contrary to bottom posting Moreover, I DO often get frustrated and find my self typing RTFM, bit that is with respect to substantive matters. This discussion is not substantive. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) +1 Allow others to do as they want and forgive them their mistakes and/or different ways of doing things. Regards from Tom :) --- On Fri, 24/2/12, MiguelAngel mari...@miguelangel.mobi wrote: From: MiguelAngel mari...@miguelangel.mobi Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Friday, 24 February, 2012, 15:14 I think nobody needs this improductive discussion. There too much places in the project where put the efforts. What is the freedom? You like top, do it. You like bottom, do it. You don't like top, don't read messages with top. You don't like bottom, don't read messages with bottom. You like the freedom. Do what you like. Let others to do what they like. Miguel Ángel. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:31:26 -0500, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting: I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again. That is exactly the way to deal with it. I make liberal use of kill filters on top-posters and my reading experience here is fairly pleasant as a result. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) Actually that is good news to for me. I don't like this tired old argument flaring up time and time again. It damages us as a community. I never start the argument and do not want it. If i am plonked/filtered-out by you then it reduces the chance of you starting the argument again. Learning a new way is different from being bullied into it. People can and do learn. 'Regards' from Tom :) --- On Thu, 23/2/12, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 13:31 On 2012-02-22 2:19 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all from you before Tom - you persist in your delusions in order to excuse your arrogant laziness and disrespect. My comment wasn't aimed at 'those new to the list', my comment was aimed at a *veteran* of the lists - YOU. Office workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anythingelse. Oh, so once someone learns one way, they are forever doomed to never learn another? You continue to disrespect everyone here by such ludicrous suggestions. Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices? I didn't tell anyone *new* off, Tom, I simply asked YOU to STOP BREAKING INLINE POSTED THREADS. I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) Ahah, that might explain why it's so rare to see either of you helping people on this list. I've never seen Caesar answer anything, not even to give someone a helpful nudge in the right direction. At least Tanstaafl has done some good in here even if its very rare. 'Regards' from Tom :) --- On Thu, 23/2/12, Caesar cae...@hiwaay.net wrote: From: Caesar cae...@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 14:05 On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:31:26 -0500, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting: I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again. That is exactly the way to deal with it. I make liberal use of kill filters on top-posters and my reading experience here is fairly pleasant as a result. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
One reason I am not more involved in this community is the incessant whining from the juveniles. Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines as my comment would not be really benefitted by a long scroll down a thread of shame, lol Chin up, Tom, and hope that some may find Apache a snugger fit ;-) I rarely take much notice of those focused on puffing themselves up; lack of O2 usually brings them to their senses. On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:31 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2012-02-22 2:19 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all from you before Tom - you persist in your delusions in order to excuse your arrogant laziness and disrespect. My comment wasn't aimed at 'those new to the list', my comment was aimed at a *veteran* of the lists - YOU. Office workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anythingelse. Oh, so once someone learns one way, they are forever doomed to never learn another? You continue to disrespect everyone here by such ludicrous suggestions. Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices? I didn't tell anyone *new* off, Tom, I simply asked YOU to STOP BREAKING INLINE POSTED THREADS. I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) The trick is to get involved with the other lists. There are many ways to contribute and many areas that would really appreciate any time you have to give. The other lists are much less whiny as they tend to have longer-range tasks driving them forwards. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 23/2/12, Marc Grober m...@interak.com wrote: From: Marc Grober m...@interak.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 23 February, 2012, 15:40 One reason I am not more involved in this community is the incessant whining from the juveniles. Notice that I am top posting as suggested by the guidelines as my comment would not be really benefitted by a long scroll down a thread of shame, lol Chin up, Tom, and hope that some may find Apache a snugger fit ;-) I rarely take much notice of those focused on puffing themselves up; lack of O2 usually brings them to their senses. On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:31 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2012-02-22 2:19 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all from you before Tom - you persist in your delusions in order to excuse your arrogant laziness and disrespect. My comment wasn't aimed at 'those new to the list', my comment was aimed at a *veteran* of the lists - YOU. Office workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anythingelse. Oh, so once someone learns one way, they are forever doomed to never learn another? You continue to disrespect everyone here by such ludicrous suggestions. Is it good to start off by telling people off for not doing things your way when we are supposed to be offering them choices? I didn't tell anyone *new* off, Tom, I simply asked YOU to STOP BREAKING INLINE POSTED THREADS. I'm DONE with you Tom... you are now officially and forever PLONKED, never to have one of your brain-dead, disrespectful emails to grace my Inbox again. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
I hesitate to add to this thread which is already bloated. However ... --On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 20:43 +0100 Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote: ---8=== Am 22.02.2012 20:19, schrieb Tom Davies: Is our main aim here to change the way people post or is it to help people move to LibreOffice? Helping people must not become a pain in the neck for the voluntary supporters. That´s why the posting quidelines should be respected. Some of us participate on multiple mailing lists relating to a variety of topics (LO, ancestry, etc.). Each mailing list may have it's own posting guidelines. Without always going back to some long forgotten e-mail or web page where the guidelines can be reviewed, we just post in what appears to us as being appropriate on a case by case basis. Seeing how others have posted serves as an informal guideline but it is nothing more than a guideline -- not a dogmatic rule the breaking of which condemns one to eternal punishment. For me, if something in my reply is general and pertains to the entire message to which I'm responding then I place that at the top. OTOH, if something is directly related to a particular point within the message I trim unrelated matter and interleave my response within the copy of that message. Bottom posting is reserved for new or summarizing matteerial. -8 Failing to follow guidelines, in this case is not a matter of lack of respect for others on the list but rather a means of attempting to communicate clearly. May this topic R.I.P. -- Jim -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On 2012-02-23 1:47 PM, James E. Lang jim+...@lang.hm wrote: Failing to follow guidelines, in this case is not a matter of lack of respect for others on the list but rather a means of attempting to communicate clearly. Very true, but I wasn't speaking in a general sense, I was speaking about one certain individual who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that his intention is to arrogantly disregard the list posting guidelines here just because he is a lazy bastard. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On 23/02/2012, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2012-02-22 2:19 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Yeah yeah yeah, we've heard it all from you before Tom - you persist in your delusions in order to excuse your arrogant laziness and disrespect. Correct. Such behaviour is analogous to the typical British monolingual tourist: instead of bothering to learn another language, the mentality is: those foreigners should understand English instead. Those who _don't_ are to be treated with contempt and so: if I speak English louder, they will understand(!). That is why even when partial advice is given, it is arrogantly ignored. Have no fear, the topic will re-emerge again. :) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On 22/02/2012 at 20:19, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Perhaps you have encountered that somewhere: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Again this topic? Well. Am 22.02.2012 20:19, schrieb Tom Davies: Is our main aim here to change the way people post or is it to help people move to LibreOffice? Helping people must not become a pain in the neck for the voluntary supporters. That´s why the posting quidelines should be respected. :-) There are already volunteers, who quit supporting, also because they became tired from folks frequently disregarding the ground rules. Sad. :-( Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
Hi :) Top posting and leaving the thread intact allows a person that is new to the thread or can't quite remember context, to gain the full context of the later replies. It also allows people to only read the last message without having to scroll or wade through tons of stuff from previous messages or try to pick out other emails that have the same subject-line in order to try to make sense of this one. It neatly achieves both choices without requiring the receiver to do anything other than scroll or not even scroll if they already remember roughly what the thread is about. If someone reads the latest message and then suddenly realises that they don't seem to know the context after all then they can choose to quickly scroll down and hopefully spot a message that does remind them. It's the way that almost all emailing works in almost every office, it's the way phones and hand-helds are set-up, it's the way many people on the accessibility list prefer as they can simply stop the screen-reader once they have got the gist of the reply. There was a beautiful example earlier where i replied to the message as it was written but then got accused of being off-topic because the alleged topic had been edited out. Note that the criticism was on-list just to make sure that anyone new to the list becomes very aware that they are likely to be publicly humiliated if they do something slightly wrong. Imagine queuing to buy something in a shop and the person at the counter punches the customer in front of you. Would you continue to wait in line or leave and perhaps use a different store? Note also that top-posters on this list have never asked bottom-posters to post at the top. It has always been bottom-posters arrogantly demanding that people conform to their own obtuse way of doing things. I did try bottom-posting a few times and instead of people saying thanks they just further abused me, again only publicly, that i hadn't done something quite right. If there had been anything approaching politeness or a gentle nudge in the right direction then i might have tried again but i have no interest in allowing bullies to intimidate me or anyone else. 'Regards' from Tom :) --- On Wed, 22/2/12, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: From: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Wednesday, 22 February, 2012, 19:41 On 22/02/2012 at 20:19, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Perhaps you have encountered that somewhere: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2/22/2012 2:19 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Office workers have almost never seen any alternative. Unless the office apps are not aimed at office users then it's ridiculous to expect anything else. Oh, dear lord. The top-posting-vs-bottom-posting religious wars again. I say screw you all; I'm posting in the middle from now on. YOU figure it out. - -- Steven Shelton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9FYBsACgkQXUonIzCvpdNSGwCfeJd/h8CThd2ibT7oQ8GPrSUG ykcAn1gP5a4FKNGoAOpIzzJmveaVUsDr =/O+D -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
I fully agree with you Tom, but I can follow the flow (up or down) to suit the poster and what ever is the custom in his/her part of the world (customer oriented). Here we file most relevant (recent) on top, digging down for more background but may be other nationalities file most recent on the bottom. May be forums were invented to circumvent the top-posting-vs-bottom-posting religious wars. steve On 2012-02-23 09:24, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Top posting and leaving the thread intact allows a person that is new to the thread or can't quite remember context, to gain the full context of the later replies. It also allows people to only read the last message without having to scroll or wade through tons of stuff from previous messages or try to pick out other emails that have the same subject-line in order to try to make sense of this one. It neatly achieves both choices without requiring the receiver to do anything other than scroll or not even scroll if they already remember roughly what the thread is about. If someone reads the latest message and then suddenly realises that they don't seem to know the context after all then they can choose to quickly scroll down and hopefully spot a message that does remind them. It's the way that almost all emailing works in almost every office, it's the way phones and hand-helds are set-up, it's the way many people on the accessibility list prefer as they can simply stop the screen-reader once they have got the gist of the reply. There was a beautiful example earlier where i replied to the message as it was written but then got accused of being off-topic because the alleged topic had been edited out. Note that the criticism was on-list just to make sure that anyone new to the list becomes very aware that they are likely to be publicly humiliated if they do something slightly wrong. Imagine queuing to buy something in a shop and the person at the counter punches the customer in front of you. Would you continue to wait in line or leave and perhaps use a different store? Note also that top-posters on this list have never asked bottom-posters to post at the top. It has always been bottom-posters arrogantly demanding that people conform to their own obtuse way of doing things. I did try bottom-posting a few times and instead of people saying thanks they just further abused me, again only publicly, that i hadn't done something quite right. If there had been anything approaching politeness or a gentle nudge in the right direction then i might have tried again but i have no interest in allowing bullies to intimidate me or anyone else. 'Regards' from Tom :) --- On Wed, 22/2/12, Mirosław Zalewskimini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: From: Mirosław Zalewskimini...@poczta.onet.pl Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Wednesday, 22 February, 2012, 19:41 On 22/02/2012 at 20:19, Tom Daviestomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Most people and especially those that are new to the lists will top-post because that is what they are most familiar with. Perhaps you have encountered that somewhere: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On 22/02/2012, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. Since this is user support group, it should be just ignored in most cases (we want to help user, not bully them). But I think that people who often write to group should adapt to basic mailing etiquette. It isn't that hard, really. True, but unfortunately a sign of the times. Hopefully, this new 'askLO' service will become so popular, the m$-clone fans, top-post ignorants/lazy/etc. will navigate there. The amusing function of askLO is that latest posts will always appear at the bottom (correctly!). :) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top posting
On 02/22/2012 02:41 PM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote: In my entire life I have never seen any mailing list or Usenet group with so much top-posting and unneeded quotes as this one. It was not until I was on an OOo / LO mail list that I even knew that some people did NOT always top post. To get around the bottom post annoyance, I installed software that pretty much hides everything except the reply. Someone on this mailing list I think recommended it as a plug-in for Thunderbird. Saved me a load of frustration. :-) So now, I NEVER see any of the original message unless I go to extra effort. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Amen Dennis! I do the same as you. I look at the most recent post in the thread - if top posted I make a call if I want to read any of the thread - if bottom posted I have to hit Ctl - end to get to the bottom of the message or scroll through way too many reply brackets to get to the bottom I subscribe to the each his own theory - one size does not fit all Those who ramble on about whether top or bottom posting should be the norm and criticize those who do not comply with their desires are probably the same people who criticize developers who set options to defaults that do not comply with their way of thinking. Onward! Ever upward! To the top!!! Preston On 9/8/2011 6:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: -Original Message- From: planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 19:33 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? Hi On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingList Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 07:07 PM, Onyeibo Oku wrote: I'm mobile and the mail app on this phone is hardcoded to push all quotes below the reply Why do you use such a bad application? At least, your application should allow you to remove the text you're answering to. Please dont argue your're prisonner. I personnally can find what you answer to by cliquing on the precedent message, because threads are conversation organised. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011 12:05 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: It is often handy to see the answer first. I can quickly determine whether or not I care what the question is. Right now, I trimmed and bottom posted: You can quickly see my answer. I could have just removed all you text, if you nedded to read it, you load the precedent message. That's all about. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: You'll also notice that my reply doesn't have an additional set of brackets, so in-line commenting makes it very difficult to know what is new comment and what is from the previous message. From Dennis' message headers: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Yeah, that's a problem with Outlook, it wants to force top-posting and screw attribution so hard that it becomes harder to understand who wrote what. Even if Outlook users plan to use top-posting, Outlook-QuoteFix is still a good way to get rid of some problems with quoting and attribution lines, including the broken reindentation. http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ (Disclaimer: I didn't try this. My system is not even able to run Outlook, let alone having it installed.) PS: It is often handy to see the answer first. I can quickly determine whether or not I care what the question is. Forty-two. And if I know what the general run of a thread has been, I don't need to see the rest of the message except to check for blankety-blank inline but unannounced comments. Well, I don't think anything without a preceding attribution mark is unannounced, at least before the first line with -- ... -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 08/09/2011 02:29, Don Myers wrote: I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Work emails are a bit different to technical mailing lists. In a technical mailing list like this there may be an original question followed by several replies followed by more questions etc etc and if you top post as default then A) the thread of the discussion gets completely messed up and b) do you read a book from the bottom up? e.g. A: Because the thread gets out of sequence Q: Why top post? -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/2011 9:00 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: - HTML formatted texts too I hear that a lot. You should get a mail program that can be set to ignore HTML. Thunderbird can be set to ignore HTML. I'm sure there are others. TB, if set to ignore HTML used to give you a blank screen (and a warning?) when messages with only HTML, no text, arrived. I don't know what the latest TB incarnation does. David Teague -- nil significat nisi oscillat do wop, do wop, do wop. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011 06:51 PM, David B Teague sr wrote: On 9/8/2011 9:00 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: - HTML formatted texts too I hear that a lot. You should get a mail program that can be set to ignore HTML. Thunderbird can be set to ignore HTML. I'm sure there are others. TB, if set to ignore HTML used to give you a blank screen (and a warning?) when messages with only HTML, no text, arrived. I don't know what the latest TB incarnation does. You must be very careful with that setting. Better if you can set that based on other filter criteria as well; for example, do not allow HTML from that mailing list, but, allow it from your boss, mother, and girl friend. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
What the heck was that??? (top-posted because there is no way to make sense of the quoted text) On 2011-09-07 9:53 PM, Keith Bates ke...@new-life.org.au wrote: On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point about national customs. It's about the way we read mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know the context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it is a lot easier for all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times on this and previously on the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who insist on their right to top post.-- God bless you Keith Bates 4 Mooloobar St Narrabri 2390 Ask Jesus into your life He is The Way, The Truth and The Life -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to, and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point) after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done... I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting (and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond intelligently). I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. Now you know. It was backwards!! No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook. So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Top posting is fine. Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just ignore your email and delete it without reading it. A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things up for people not to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands. Regards from Tom :) From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 12:44:58 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to, and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point) after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done... I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting (and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond intelligently). I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. Now you know. It was backwards!! No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook. So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi gary, NoOp wrote (08-09-11 02:02) For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I think it is useful to have some clear examples (pictures from mails/ threads) that simply show how good mailing practices can be useful. Of course, if you are constantly on the mail, giving all your attention to what goes on there, you can maybe follow the topics in the blind. Then it may not all be that relevant. But for people that cannot read the posts all the time, clear quoting and replying below the relevant part, is helpful. Still not something we want to try to force people to use IMO. But something to show as good possibility. Cheers, -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own. On 09/08/2011 08:13 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Top posting is fine. Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just ignore your email and delete it without reading it. A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things up for people not to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands. Regards from Tom :) From: Tanstaafltansta...@libertytrek.org To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 12:44:58 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myersdonmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. It isn't about 'posting at the bottom' - it is about trimming your post to only quote the relevant portion of the text you are responding to, and placing each response (if you are responding to more than one point) after each relevant quoted portion of text - just like this one is done... I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting (and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond intelligently). I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. Now you know. It was backwards!! No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook. So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote: I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. Because people you talk with read bottum-up. And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 06:37 AM, toki wrote: Intermixed posting was the US standard. That changed when: * AOL allowed its members on the Internet; * Microsoft released its email client that made intermixed posting virtually impossible for non-techies. Agreed. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 02:44 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: laziness vs spending a few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses. That's the point: people are lazy and dont wan to mess with trimming and formatting their answer. But they want the recipient to read carefully what they wrote. Crazy. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 03:13 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Top posting is fine. Bottom posting is fine. Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just ignore your email and delete it without reading it. What about trimming (summarize) the message you answer to? I personnally bottom reply to my top-poster boss. I'm waiting to snip him if he dares telling anything about that pratctice. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as I just did for yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click on reply. It keeps (quotes) just the selected line. Your MUA does not? Use a clever one. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
I'm with you Don, - see below - On 08/09/2011 02:29, Don Myers wrote: Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Hi All, I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 07:44 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: Nothing to do with countries - only to do with laziness vs spending a few extra seconds intelligently crafting your responses. Thank you!! -- *~~* Don C. Myers e-PRO Certified by the National Association of Realtors Manager, Farm and Rural Property Division *Coldwell Banker University Realty *126 East Foster Avenue, State College, PA 16801 Office Phone: 814-237-6543 Fax: 814-237-6502 Home Phone: 814-422-8111 Cell Phone: 814-571-9518 Visit the Farm and Rural Property Division Web Site at _www.cbur-ruralproperty.com http://www.cbur-ruralproperty.com/ _View Don's Farm Web Site at www.myersfarm.com http://www.myersfarm.com/ *~~* -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the latest post. Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember some detail. This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find them imo. Regards from Tom :) From: Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 8 September, 2011 14:03:13 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote: I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. Because people you talk with read bottum-up. And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 9:11 AM, Chris Morgan ch...@lynxinfo.co.uk wrote: I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message. I get so tired of this totally lame and purposefully ignorant excuse. You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to provide context to your reply. You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain around a simple truth) Both? -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Really? Personal insults? Here?? Over the past few months there has been a steadily increasing amount of top-posting. It is not just one or 2 people. Outside of LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost exclusively. Smart phones make it difficult to post any other way. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 14:44 On 2011-09-08 9:11 AM, Chris Morgan ch...@lynxinfo.co.uk wrote: I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message. I get so tired of this totally lame and purposefully ignorant excuse. You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to provide context to your reply. You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain around a simple truth) Both? -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to provide context to your reply. You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain around a simple truth) Both? As I replied to another message - we live in the real world - not some idealised world where everyone is rational. People are lazy - get used to it. And there is no need to insult everyone. In most cases top-posting is preferable. However, in this 'list' environment, bottom-posting and selective quoting works better for retaining context. However, we cannot enforce this without alienating the very people this list is aimed at (ie everyone), so we will just have to live with a few inconsistencies and inconveniences. cheers, Chris Incoming and outgoing emails are checked for viruses by Sophos AntiVirus. This email may contain confidential information which is intended for the named recipient(s) only. Ã If you are not the named recipient you should not take any action in relation to this email, other than to notify us that you have received it in error. Lynx Information Systems Ltd 93-99 Upper Richmond Rd London SW15 2TG United Kingdom Web: http://www.lynxinfo.co.uk Email: l...@lynxinfo.co.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 8780 2634 Fax: +44 (0)20 8780 0931 Registered in England Number 2454130 VAT Number GB 561 8979 88 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Tanstaafl wrote: What the heck was that??? (top-posted because there is no way to make sense of the quoted text) I... guess it was some serious Thunderbird misconfiguration? Or maybe it's written in Quenya... (replied exactly below the question it's supposed to address, just like interleaved style should be used) On 2011-09-07 9:53 PM, Keith Bates ke...@new-life.org.au wrote: On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point about national customs. It's about the way we read mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know the context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it is a lot easier for all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times on this and previously on the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who insist on their right to top post.-- -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 04:11 PM, Chris Morgan wrote: Professional emails are almost always top posted, which is easier to read in the preview window of email readers. What??? https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/8/30/120 Linux kernel Mailing list would be a non professional? Given all the big companies employees contributing? -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 04:11 PM, Chris Morgan wrote: I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message. Again, what the problem with trimming the message, just as I did? Please tell. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote: This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? I dont agree with you. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On 09/08/2011 04:29 AM, Don Myers wrote: I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. Because people you talk with read bottum-up. And it's not a country custom, just a matter of education and logic. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Tom, even if you top post, please trim your messages. I doubt the mailing list signature with the unsubscribe instructions classifies as context. (signature quoted, as it should be when the current message happens to discuss a previous signature) Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the latest post. I don't think that's a good point, it works both ways, either you just scroll down to read the latest post, or you just scroll down to read the context. Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember some detail. But what happens if people top-post ten consecutive messages, and then someone tries to get some context? We hope all these posters have trimmed their citations and that they used clients that don't mess the citations, but it's still somehow painful, because it's not a matter of reading bottom-up, it's a matter of reading top-down several sentences in bottom-up order. A bottle of water and either acetylsalicylic acid or paracetamol are advised. This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? The problem is that in this case personal choices affects the way other people use the list. I guess we want to keep disruption at a minimum, so please, no matter what kind of posting you want to use, trim citations and adjust all citations so that they follow your style. I mean, if you're top-posting, make sure what you're quoting is ordered that way. IMHO it's less confusing. It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find them imo. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2011-09-07 9:29 PM, Don Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. That is *only* because Microsoft decided to make blindly top-posting (and quoting the *entire* previous *email*, rather than encouraging users to actually *think* about what they are replying to and respond intelligently). It all started spreading even faster when the bussiness world started using e-mail tools that weren't designed for e-mail or that were made after September 1993. Then some people started adopting that behavior, because they probably thought if they're using it this way, that's how I should use it. And nowadays it's not just help centers and bussinesses, it's other people too. If you do office work (like Tom), or interact with bussiness people a lot, then you'll probably see lots of people top-posting. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. Now you know. Because Thunderbird has cultural inheritance that dates from August 1993 or earlier. It was backwards!! No, it is correct - it is only 'backwards' for those weaned on Outlook. Hmm, I've been reading books by increasing order of page number. I guess I've been doing it backwards all my life. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: Outside of LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost exclusively. Last time I went to USENET, people were still actively bottom-posting (interleaved). At least excluding Google Groups posts, which I filter. (Google Groups is the cultural heir of America Online) Smart phones make it difficult to post any other way. Some regular email and news cliends do, too. There are and will always be broken clients. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 05:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Really? Personal insults? Here?? If polite explanations are not enough, why not... -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 05:20 PM, Chris Morgan wrote: People are lazy - get used to it. I do. But get used o me always reminding then. In most cases top-posting is preferable No. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingList Guidelines Page?
Sorry, this is another top-post. I agree totally but you need to give people benefit of doubt too (like in my case ... I'm mobile and the mail app on this phone is hardcoded to push all quotes below the reply) Otherwise, I do bottom posts when I'm my desktop/laptop - from twohot@device.mobile :) -Original Message- From: Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:10:50 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 09/08/2011 03:45 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. Because your correspondants did not trim the message, as I just did for yours: I just select the line I want to answer and click on reply. It keeps (quotes) just the selected line. Your MUA does not? Use a clever one. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing ListGuidelines Page?
Okay, I just saw this after responding in similar manner shortly. At least someone understands. I wish my phone doesn't always expect me to use the browser just to comply with demands for bottom posts. Otherwise, ... This reply would have been at the bottom with the irrelevant phrases snipped off - from twohot@device.mobile :) -Original Message- From: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 15:03:04 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? Hi :) Really? Personal insults? Here?? Over the past few months there has been a steadily increasing amount of top-posting. It is not just one or 2 people. Outside of LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost exclusively. Smart phones make it difficult to post any other way. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 14:44 On 2011-09-08 9:11 AM, Chris Morgan ch...@lynxinfo.co.uk wrote: I can see some of the advantages of bottom-posting, but it does mean a lot more scrolling to get to the meat of the message. I get so tired of this totally lame and purposefully ignorant excuse. You only have to scroll if the person who is replying *blindly* quotes the *entire* *message*, rather than - as *all* top/inline posting advocates suggest - trimming the quoted text to only what is relevant to provide context to your reply. You and Tom Davies simply ignore that - so what does that make you? Disingenuous (aka liar)? A moron (someone who cannot wrap their brain around a simple truth) Both? -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 11:32 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 09/08/2011 05:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Really? Personal insults? Here?? If polite explanations are not enough, why not... Rotflmao! Someone gets it... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:45:26AM -0400, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. That only happens when people are too clueless or too lazy to trim their replies. ...snip of material that should never have been quoted... -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
-Original Message- From: planas [mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 19:33 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? Hi On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Hi All, I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 08/09/11 11:29, Don Myers wrote:Reply below:On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote:For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: pleaseconsider bottom posting with interspersed replies.Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries.DonIt's not a point about national customs. It's about the way we read mailing lists.If you are in a one-to-one conversation then you will know the context of the conversation and more importantly you will remember what you said to that person last time.In that case top posting works often,although you may still have to re-quote parts of the previous conversation to make it clear what is being talked about or the points you are responding to.In a mailing list where there are multiple conversations frommultiple people all happening simultaneously, it is a lot easier for all concerned if replies are interspersed in the body of the previous email or at the bottom so that new readers can pick up the context of the conversation. Also for people who come across the archived version looking to solve a problem several months later, it is much easier if you can follow the logical flow by scrolling down through the various discussions.We've had this discussion multiple times on this and previously on the OO list.I'm with NoOp on this but I know that there are people who insist on their right to top post.-- God bless you Keith Bates 4 Mooloobar St Narrabri 2390 Ask Jesus into your life He is The Way, The Truth and The Life -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Hi All, I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/07/2011 10:33 PM, planas wrote: Hi On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: Reply below: On 09/07/2011 08:02 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Hi All, I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is
Re: [libreoffice-users] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/08/2011 01:29 AM, Don Myers wrote: The reply is always at the top. When I top post, I am 100% guaranteed that the recipient will be utterly clueless about what I am referring to, and what action, if any, I will be taking. every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Intermixed posting was the US standard. That changed when: * AOL allowed its members on the Internet; * Microsoft released its email client that made intermixed posting virtually impossible for non-techies. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOaDh+AAoJEIda1rvbz/7L5vcH/Rwhg3NXSzZdAbyYYrqq0MWi FOVGBJu32jOEEnuTSm0amCan4uM6Dh1WwczLL3ZGGfVpozboForMpBTWfuwtmMcf iwFGg5GpoFHbCxyFx6HwrHI8i8oWH9jINIhb+E4+Qx/jbZDJzz97MSTcjWaDLtdp 93RYsCFFP5Dhub1AweXWwxJNgLcckQYEIv6W/c8zWEeUqOIylF83Kfh3AHQxJUjP UbMId1AtQr8LqKr5313U/Wup3YybXWDOeZstGB6zC2+YFc4VBN31EajoVJZi3HVq tNzv1hbR9qBCzGGVbDFXbAylFagvByxJ6SNVHr2wDww9hZM+kGf0bUdGrMOsSsw= =QFwj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 19/02/2011 03:32, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 18 February 2011 21:21, Robert Holtzmanhol...@cox.net wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 07:58:41PM -0600, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 17 February 2011 18:58, Robert Holtzmanhol...@cox.net wrote: You have something against trimming quotes? Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. Are you *trying* to be irritating or just trolling? Neither. And the fact that the worst offender **agreed** with the statement proved my point. I have only been on this list, which I am now leaving, for less than a week, and while I am sure you all give really good advice to people who are having problems using Lo you all seem to be more interested in arguing amongst yourselves about protocol. More than 50% of the e-mails I have received have been on the subject of how to manage the list, so why not get back to what this was presumably set up for of providing help Steve -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
Le 19/02/2011 11:26, TVCSF Chair a écrit : I have only been on this list, which I am now leaving, Don't. for less than a week [...] More than 50% of the e-mails I have received have been on the subject of how to manage the list, so why not get back to what this was presumably set up for of providing help These arguments happen on all and every list I had subscribed. It is the first time I can see this happen on this list since it was setup, so, I'd say you were out of luck... Pls, be patient and leave the storm alone ;) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 2/18/2011 11:30 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2011-02-17 9:18 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: The presence of archives, or people coming in to a discussion that's already underway, is the main reason that mailing lists differ from normal conversational e-mailing where there may well be only two parties, or several people who have all been there since the beginning, where everybody just needs to see the most recent addition to the conversation (or occasionally look deeper into the material for reference) and top posting is the most effective way to keep communications going. That makes much more sense on a FORUM... But, Barbara, honestly, I guarantee you the vast majority of people who participate on mail lists do not go to the archives to read entire threads... ever. They come here to post a question and get an answer. Understood. But we do have archives, and we do try to encourage people to use them. That's why I say there's not ever likely to be a totally satisfactory solution to this. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 09:32:42PM -0600, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 18 February 2011 21:21, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 07:58:41PM -0600, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 17 February 2011 18:58, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: You have something against trimming quotes? Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. Are you *trying* to be irritating or just trolling? Neither. And the fact that the worst offender **agreed** with the statement proved my point. I didn't see that you expressed a point. It seemed that you were simply bragging about ignoring email conventions. What worst offender have you reference to? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:28:03AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. Are you *trying* to be irritating or just trolling? Neither. And the fact that the worst offender **agreed** with the statement proved my point. I didn't see that you expressed a point. It seemed that you were simply bragging about ignoring email conventions. What worst offender have you reference to? I seldom reply to my own posts but I'll make an exception. *If* what you originally posted was sarcasm and I missed it, I apologize. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 19 February 2011 14:13, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:28:03AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: I didn't see that you expressed a point. It seemed that you were simply bragging about ignoring email conventions. Perhaps you didn't see my earlier comments on this topic where I very strongly endorse normal e-mail usage. Just yesterday, I wrote about belonging to lists that enforce such standards by banning those who do not comply. I've also made comments about broken e-mail clients (though *any* e-mail client *can* be used correctly with a little effort -- even Yahoo!). What worst offender have you reference to? tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk (now in my kill list) *If* what you originally posted was sarcasm and I missed it, I apologize. It was an apparently weak attempt at irony/sarcasm. My apologies. It is sometimes difficult to convey tone in text. This is especially true with irony and sarcasm. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
Exactly. That is exactly the way that the vast majority of office workers work. If we don't want our office suite to be used by office workers then it is fine to ask people to behave differently, just for us. Regards from Tom :) From: T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.com To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Fri, 18 February, 2011 1:58:41 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting On 17 February 2011 18:58, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: You have something against trimming quotes? Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
Please take me off your lists!!! Phil Woodruff - philan...@comcast.net - Original Message - From: Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:30:55 AM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting On 2011-02-17 9:18 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: The presence of archives, or people coming in to a discussion that's already underway, is the main reason that mailing lists differ from normal conversational e-mailing where there may well be only two parties, or several people who have all been there since the beginning, where everybody just needs to see the most recent addition to the conversation (or occasionally look deeper into the material for reference) and top posting is the most effective way to keep communications going. That makes much more sense on a FORUM... But, Barbara, honestly, I guarantee you the vast majority of people who participate on mail lists do not go to the archives to read entire threads... ever. They come here to post a question and get an answer. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 9:37 AM, philan...@comcast.net wrote: Please take me off your lists!!! If you take just a fraction of a second to read the footer below (which happens to get appended to every single message posted to this discussion list), you'll see how you can remove yourself from the list - almost no-one who posts here can actually do what you ask (maybe 3 people?). -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 18 February 2011 21:21, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 07:58:41PM -0600, T. R. Valentine wrote: On 17 February 2011 18:58, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: You have something against trimming quotes? Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. Are you *trying* to be irritating or just trolling? Neither. And the fact that the worst offender **agreed** with the statement proved my point. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: : The first point is not news; it's more 'olds'. Same with the 2nd point. The 3rd point is an unpopular idea in this list that leads to bullying and is just sad for an Office Suite list = it's an office suite for techies geeks, not for normal corporate or mainstream office users. While people harangue or harass or bully me about stating this rather than considering why i might make this claim it remains one of the reasons that blocks LibreOffice and OpenOffice from widespread mainstream usage. Tom, to be perfectly honest, while I really hate to bounce around in a thread trying to figure out who said what in what order because of mixed top, inline and bottom posting, it is possible (thought backing up the thread is easier and clearer). I object more to things like excessive blank lines (they add nothing but a need to scroll through more space), introductory smileys (not needed, waste of space like blank lines, etc.) and complete reposting of large chunks of messages that a) were already posted on the thread and b) don't relate directly to the current reply. Why? Because it makes me work harder to find what I need to know, weeded out from that which I already knew. Often as not, it only takes a little effort to trim the excess, and that includes both top (typically earlier replies) and bottom (mainly the footer, but anything after the last new part of the reply). Brevity is not only the soul of wit, it is in the essence of problem solving - cut away that which is not directly relevant and you are left with a clearer path to the solution, especially in email discussions. Just my $0.02. FTR, I think most of your posts are very helpful to the less experienced or sophisticated users, and sometimes even old hats like me. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: : Yes, on your way down and delete that which is not needed and Going back and proofreading do all take time and require effort that top-posting doesn't require. you might only have a 'small' amount of emails to deal with and 'ample time' but office workers get hassled if they 'waste time' in that sort of way unless they are sufficiently high-up in which case they are not going to follow rules set by some outsider that has no impact on their pay-packet. The above reply displays a complete and utter disregard for anything remotely approaching netiquette. ANY reply deserves to be proofread - if you're going to take the time to write it, you ought to read it. The rest is just disrepectful crap - if you're going to help people, do it well. If that's too much trouble, don't do it at all. I routinely process 200-300 emails a day in addition to my full-time job, so I don't need lectures on what value to place on my time. I participate in these discussions to assist those who need it, sometimes to guide those who don't know how, sometimes more sharply than others, but clearly some ingrates aren't worth the effort. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: All the problems listed are solved by simply top-posting. The only problems that top-posting solves is the problem of providing a quality answer to technical questions. Lazy is as lazy does. If it's too much work to do a good job, don't do it at all. Sloppy help is worse than none. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
Hi :) Wow! Well, if this list is not going to help people that top-post and are just going to continue to be rude to them then LibreOffice is definitely not likely to attract mainstream office workers. I might try to help those i can or at least be a little more welcoming than you chaps. 'Regards' from Tom From: MR ZenWiz mrzen...@gmail.com To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 17 February, 2011 20:06:13 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: All the problems listed are solved by simply top-posting. The only problems that top-posting solves is the problem of providing a quality answer to technical questions. Lazy is as lazy does. If it's too much work to do a good job, don't do it at all. Sloppy help is worse than none. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 17 February 2011 14:17, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) Wow! Well, if this list is not going to help people that top-post and are just going to continue to be rude to them then LibreOffice is definitely not likely to attract mainstream office workers. I might try to help those i can or at least be a little more welcoming than you chaps. Refusing to conform to a community's standards is being rude, especially after having those standards explained. But it appears you are so busy complaining about the speck in the eyes of others that you cannot see the beam in your own. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 07:58:08PM +, Tom Davies wrote: snip. At first i was prepared to accept that there might be technical reasons why bottom posting is better but now i am beginning to think that anything except top posting is insane. That's undoubtedly the reason many mailing lists suggest doing it. You have something against trimming quotes? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 17 February 2011 18:58, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: You have something against trimming quotes? Too much work. One just hits reply, types where the cursor appears (on top) and hits send. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top-posting
On 2/17/2011 6:58 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 07:58:08PM +, Tom Davies wrote: snip. At first i was prepared to accept that there might be technical reasons why bottom posting is better but now i am beginning to think that anything except top posting is insane. That's undoubtedly the reason many mailing lists suggest doing it. You have something against trimming quotes? I don't know if you'd count this as a technical reason, but archives are a lot more generally useful if threads can be read top to bottom, instead of somewhere near bottom to bottom, somewhere higher up than before to where I was before, etc. The presence of archives, or people coming in to a discussion that's already underway, is the main reason that mailing lists differ from normal conversational e-mailing where there may well be only two parties, or several people who have all been there since the beginning, where everybody just needs to see the most recent addition to the conversation (or occasionally look deeper into the material for reference) and top posting is the most effective way to keep communications going. But this whole discussion has been held so many times that we're *very* unlikely to come to a fully satisfactory conclusion. It can take on a fervor that always reminds me of Jonathan Swift's Lilliputians and their big-endian/little-endian wars. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
