Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Ernst, *, Am 03.01.2014 19:07, schrieb E.J.Minhorst: Markus: Menschen, die sich nun mal gerne an bequeme Dinge gewöhnen, mit Schmeissfliegen zu vergleichen, finde ich ein bißchen hart! Man muß diesem Gewohnheitstier nur erst mal mögliche Alternativen bekannt machen und vorallem die Philosophie von OpenSource nahebringen - dann klappts vielleicht auch mit dem Nachbarn! Wenn ich hiermit irgend jemandem zu nahe getreten sein sollte, so entschuldige ich mich dafür in aller Form. FB und Konsorten ist für mich nunmal ein knallrotes Tuch und ich habe für so etwas nicht erst seit Eddie Snowdon nicht den Hauch eines Verständnisses. Denn es ist mir einfach rätselhaft, wie man gerade in diesen Tagen seine Privatsphäre (zumindest Teile davon) so einfach einem probritären schwarzen Loch anvertraut. Und das nur, weil es Millionen andere auch machen, die (offensichtlich) auch nicht genau wissen, auf was sie sich da eigentlich einlassen. Das Argument, das Frazenbuch sei der ultimative Platzhirsch und würde doch schon von der ganzen Welt genutzt, sollte man ganz schnell wieder vergessen: Selbst die weltumspannende Krake aus Redmond, USA muß sich (noch) mit Alternativ-Produkten messen - und das sollte möglichst so bleiben! Verglichen mit Scroogle ist M$ doch ein Hort des Datenschutzes und der -sicherheit ;-) Ansonsten: Scroogle = FB, mein letzter Satz. Für die Förderer und Sympatisanten von OpenSource müsste Vorgesagtes eigentlich eine Selbstverständlichkeit sein! Deshalb würde ich als alter OpenSource-Verfechter auch unbedingt und ausschließlich nicht-proprietäre Software in Betracht ziehen - sonst überhaupt nichts! Dann sind wir mindestens schon mal zwei :-) Ich möchte noch als weitere Alternative Friendica in Erinnerung bringen! Hier der Link zum deutschsprachigen Wiki: http://wiki.toktan.org/doku.php IMHO ist Friendica aus technischer Sicht Diaspora vorzuziehen, weil es mehr features bietet und auch optisch ganz gut daherkommt. Friendica hatte ich gar nicht auf der Pfanne. *Das* liest sich richtig gut, vor allem wegen XMPP. Ich habe mal versuchsweise ein eigenes Node von Friendica auf dem Server installiert und sammle noch Erfahrung damit. Kontaktaufnahme mit mir jederzeit und gerne via ej...@shared.ejomi.net bzw. testweise anmelden unter http://shared.ejomi.net/register - DANKE! Du hast/bekommst'ne PM. Vielen Dank für Deine Mühe! Gruss, Markus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Bugs melden, vielmehr hier seine Verwunderung ausdrücken
Am 04.01.2014 22:35, schrieb Isch: Hallo Dave, Am 04.01.2014 22:04, schrieb Dave: Die eigentliche Frage lautet, warum will dieser Christian partout ein Makro einsetzen, wenn es auch so geht? Er soll aufhören, sinnlose Fragen zu stellen!!! [.] Gruß Christian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org Die Diskusion kommt mir so bekannt vor. Immer der gleiche Stil. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Markus, From: hotmail_dde66a2ece83c...@live.com [mailto:hotmail_dde66a2ece83c...@live.com] On Behalf Of Markus Jermann Kritik? Ja, Kritik Strikte Ablehnung! beschreibt das wohl deutlich besser. Zumindest was mich betrifft. ich sprach von der deutschen/deutschsprachigen Community, nicht von Einzelnen Letzteres ist vielleicht eine etwas ungewöhnliche Bitte, nur die Sache liegt doch so: ich kann mir nicht denken das irgendwer etwas gegen Diaspora, Friendica und ggf. Weitere hat, auch dürfte das nicht viel Arbeit machen, nur alles wird Das kann ich mir auch wirklich nicht vorstellen. Und nach Dem was Raphael schreibt irren wir uns nun leider Beide, denn das: Es muss mindestens ein PMC Member als Admin der Seite dabei sein, damit die Seite als offiziell gelten kann. Ist natürlich ein erheblicher 'Aufwand', besser gesagt eine erhebliche Hürde. Andererseits schafft es Klarheit, denn so kann ich Dir sagen das es um Diaspora zusätzlich aufzunehmen zumindest der Mitarbeit eines der PMC-Mitglieder bedarf, somit wäre es wahrscheinlich unkonvetionell, aber nicht falsch wenn Du einfach mal versuchst da jemanden zu überzeugen. Alle PMC-Mitglieder sind hier aufgelistet: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice-pmc So ist leider die Lage und ich habe darauf leider auch nicht mehr Einfluss als Du. Wobei ich mich frage wie wesentlich weiter wir mit AOO schon sei könnten wenn wir die Energie die Apache in Formalien der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit steckt in Inhalte der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit stecken würde. Für ein '08/15-Medium' ein PMC-Mitglied zur Pflicht zu machen ist wirklich absurd, bremst aber natürlich das Projekt zuverlässig aus, denn es schränkt aus rein zeitlichen Gründen die Möglichkeiten extrem ein. Gruß Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Mein lieber Dave, das Schönste soll man sich ja für den Schluss aufheben. Am 03.01.2014 20:59, schrieb Dave: ob ich den Widerspruch zwischen FB und offener Software nicht merke? Aber bitte sehr, egal welche Software du benutzt, letztlich bist auch du auf die Leitungen des Monopols Telekom angewiesen, oder hast du da OpenSource Leitungen parat? Ich habe deine Beiträge bis jetzt immer sehr geschätzt, auch wenn du Trolle fütterst. Ändere das bitte nicht durch derartige Aussagen. Ich bitte dich, wenn schon Ideologie, dann die richtige, nämlich, dass wir nicht kleinkrämerische Alternativen brauchen, sondern eine neue demokratische Gesellschaftsordnung. Die wird durch eine gesellschaftliche Revolution erreicht, und nicht durch OpenSource-Projekte. Ein kurzer Ausflug in die Politik / die Zeitgeschichte gefällig? Du kannst dich schon daran erinnern, dass 1989 in der damaligen DDR auch alles mit ein paar Leutchen anfing? Und die Open-Source-Bewegung (so muss man sie wohl nennen) hat einigen propritären SW-Herstellern bereits richtig weh getan. Übrigens: Ideologien lasse ich mir schon gar nicht aufzwingen. Von keinem. Ich selbst unterstütze nach Kräften Apache OpenOffice nicht nur weil es OpenSource ist, sondern vor allem, weil es inhaltlich MS Office haushoch überlegen ist (haushoch ist noch eine Untertreibung). Mit OpenOffice sparen die Studierenden wertvolle Stunden und Wochen Zeit. Daher unterrichte ich das auch gegen den Widerstand meiner Vorgesetzten. Aber ich mache mir doch keine Illusionen, ausschließlich OpenSource zu benutzen. Da hast du aber Glück, dass deine Vorgesetzten mitspielen. Woanders bekommst du für so etwas die Papiere in die Hand gedrückt. Fristlos. Bin übrigens auch Linux-Fan - die meisten AOO-Anwender dürften allerdings nach wie vor unter Windows arbeiten, auch so ein Widerspruch. Nach deiner Theorie dürften wir überhaupt keine AOO für Windows anbieten, und auch Blödsinn. nicht für Rechner, die die China unter grausamsten Arbeitsbedingungen hergestellt werden. Die (kapitalistische) Welt besteht aus unzähligen Widersprüchen, und FB ist nur einer unter vielen. Erstens rechnet dann wieder die halbe Menschheit mit dem Abakus in der Hand. Und Zweitens muss ich ein Geschwür nicht auch noch pflegen. Alles weitere diesbezüglich bitte *nur* noch via PM. Danke. Gruss Markus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Am 05.01.14 11:46, schrieb Jörg Schmidt: Hallo Markus, From: hotmail_dde66a2ece83c...@live.com [mailto:hotmail_dde66a2ece83c...@live.com] On Behalf Of Markus Jermann Kritik? Ja, Kritik Strikte Ablehnung! beschreibt das wohl deutlich besser. Zumindest was mich betrifft. ich sprach von der deutschen/deutschsprachigen Community, nicht von Einzelnen Letzteres ist vielleicht eine etwas ungewöhnliche Bitte, nur die Sache liegt doch so: ich kann mir nicht denken das irgendwer etwas gegen Diaspora, Friendica und ggf. Weitere hat, auch dürfte das nicht viel Arbeit machen, nur alles wird Das kann ich mir auch wirklich nicht vorstellen. Und nach Dem was Raphael schreibt irren wir uns nun leider Beide, denn das: Es muss mindestens ein PMC Member als Admin der Seite dabei sein, damit die Seite als offiziell gelten kann. Ist natürlich ein erheblicher 'Aufwand', besser gesagt eine erhebliche Hürde. Andererseits schafft es Klarheit, denn so kann ich Dir sagen das es um Diaspora zusätzlich aufzunehmen zumindest der Mitarbeit eines der PMC-Mitglieder bedarf, somit wäre es wahrscheinlich unkonvetionell, aber nicht falsch wenn Du einfach mal versuchst da jemanden zu überzeugen. Alle PMC-Mitglieder sind hier aufgelistet: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice-pmc Ich kann nur noch mal sagen, Schreibt an die internationale Dev. Möglicherweise ist es gar nicht so schwer dafür jemanden zu finden. Auf der internationalen Dev lesen auch alle PMC's mit. So ist leider die Lage und ich habe darauf leider auch nicht mehr Einfluss als Du. Wobei ich mich frage wie wesentlich weiter wir mit AOO schon sei könnten wenn wir die Energie die Apache in Formalien der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit steckt in Inhalte der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit stecken würde. Für ein '08/15-Medium' ein PMC-Mitglied zur Pflicht zu machen ist wirklich absurd, bremst aber natürlich das Projekt zuverlässig aus, denn es schränkt aus rein zeitlichen Gründen die Möglichkeiten extrem ein. Beim alten OpenOffice.org Projekt hätte es je nach Sprach Community ein Wahlverfahren gegeben und dann wäre es auch nicht mal mit anderen Sprachen abgesprochen gewesen... Also Bürokratischer finde ich Apache nicht. In gewissen Teilen ist halt Apache sehr strickt. Dass die offizielle Vertretung bei AOO relativ bürokratisch geschieht, hat auch eine gewisse Schutzwirkung. Ich kann mich erinnern, dass die Ankündigung der TDF über die offiziellen Kanäle als offizielle Pressemitteilung von OpenOffice.org raus ging. So eine Pressemitteilung würde bei Apache spätestens bei der Projektübergreifenden Marketing Abteilung blockiert. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Jörg, Am 05.01.2014 11:46, schrieb Jörg Schmidt: ich sprach von der deutschen/deutschsprachigen Community, nicht von Einzelnen Alles klar. Und nach Dem was Raphael schreibt irren wir uns nun leider Beide, denn das: Ich kürze es mal ab: Was ist, wenn wir die Geschichte autark machen? Dann nennen wir uns eben Circle of AOO friends oder wie auch immer. Aber ich sehe schon, dann gibt's auch keinen Verweis auf/von der offiziellen Homepage. Damn'd. Wobei ich mich frage wie wesentlich weiter wir mit AOO schon sei könnten wenn wir die Energie die Apache in Formalien der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit steckt in Inhalte der Öffentlichkeitsarbeit stecken würde. Für ein '08/15-Medium' ein PMC-Mitglied zur Pflicht zu machen ist wirklich absurd, bremst aber natürlich das Projekt zuverlässig aus, denn es schränkt aus rein zeitlichen Gründen die Möglichkeiten extrem ein. Full ack. Gruss Markus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Markus Am 05.01.14 12:23, schrieb Markus Jermann: Hallo Jörg, Am 05.01.2014 11:46, schrieb Jörg Schmidt: ich sprach von der deutschen/deutschsprachigen Community, nicht von Einzelnen Alles klar. Und nach Dem was Raphael schreibt irren wir uns nun leider Beide, denn das: Ich kürze es mal ab: Was ist, wenn wir die Geschichte autark machen? Dann nennen wir uns eben Circle of AOO friends oder wie auch immer. Solange du die Trade Mark richtlinien beachtest, kein problem. Im falle Circle of AOO friends glaube ich kaum, dass du Probleme bekommst. Wenn du auf nummer sicher gehen willst, musst du schon an priv...@openoffice.apache.org schreiben. Aber wie gesagt, versuchs doch erst mal noch auf der internationalen dev. Vielleicht findet sich ja ein PMC Member dafür. Gruss Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Raphael, From: Raphael Bircher [mailto:r.birc...@gmx.ch] Beim alten OpenOffice.org Projekt hätte es je nach Sprach Community ein Wahlverfahren gegeben und dann wäre es auch nicht mal mit anderen Sprachen abgesprochen gewesen... Also Bürokratischer finde ich Apache nicht. In gewissen Teilen ist halt Apache sehr strickt. Dass die offizielle Vertretung bei AOO relativ bürokratisch geschieht, hat auch eine gewisse Schutzwirkung. Ich kann mich erinnern, dass die Ankündigung der TDF über die offiziellen Kanäle als offizielle Pressemitteilung von OpenOffice.org raus ging. So eine Pressemitteilung würde bei Apache spätestens bei der Projektübergreifenden Marketing Abteilung blockiert. Mein Gott Raphael, jetzt mache doch nicht wieder aus einer Sachkritik im Einzelnen eine Fundamentalkritik an Apache. Als ich las das für eine solch relative Bagatelle, wie die Pflege einer Gruppe bei einem sozialen Netzwerk, ein PMC-Mitglied nötig ist (und nicht etwa ein Committer, was ich verstanden hätte) war ich mäßig entsetzt, weil uns das schon rein wegen der Kapazität lähmen muss, denn es ist doch offensichtlich das: -die Pflege EINER Gruppe braucht 2-3 Stunden wöchentlich (Deine Aussage der ich auch zustimme) -wer hier bei AOO ehrenamtlich mitarbeitet und im Rahmen dessen auch 'offizielle' Aufgaben als PMC-Mitglied wahrnimmt ist wahrscheinlich damit gut ausgelastet wenn er denn dafür bis zu 5 oder 10 Stunden pro Woche aufwendet (denn er will ja sicherlich auch noch direkt für OO arbeiten, z.B. programmieren oder QA machen) Daraus folgt dann rein mathematisch das, bezüglich der Wahrnehmung von Aufgaben wie der Pflege einer FB-Gruppe, insgesamt nur eine Kapazität von ungefähr 2-3 dieser Aufgaben pro PMC-Mitglied oder insgesamt ca. 50-75 Aufgaben gesamt existiert und angesichts der Winzigkeit der Aufgabe und der Tatsache das wir hier über ein bedeutendes internationales OSS-Projekt reden ist das imho sehr wenig, zumal mir meine Schätzung hier schon eher optimistisch vorkommt. Kurzum, ich verstehe _an dieser Stelle_ nicht warum das so geregelt ist, denn es ist offensichtlich das technisch jeder Dödel in der Lage ist eine FB-Seite zu pflegen und worin Apache Gefahren sieht damit einen Committer zu beauftragen müsste Apache mal erklären, denn welche Gefährdung geht denn von einem Committer aus der das Recht hätte sowas zu tun? Meiner Erachtens Keine. Im Übrigen sollten wir so viel Realitätsicht haben die Kirche im Dorf zu lassen wenn es um 'strikt' geht, denn jeder kann sehen wie das gehandhabt wird, mal wird den Vertretern großer Firmen mit laissez faire begegnet, mal werden in Blogeinträgen 'third party applikationen' plötzlich stillschweigend zu Teilen des Projekts, solange es niemandem auffällt. Gruß Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Deutschsprachige Facebook Seite
Hallo Raphael, Am 05.01.2014 12:40, schrieb Raphael Bircher: Solange du die Trade Mark richtlinien beachtest, kein problem. Im falle Circle of AOO friends glaube ich kaum, dass du Probleme bekommst. Wenn du auf nummer sicher gehen willst, musst du schon an priv...@openoffice.apache.org schreiben. Aber wie gesagt, versuchs doch erst mal noch auf der internationalen dev. Vielleicht findet sich ja ein PMC Member dafür. Danke für die Infos. Ist auf meiner To-Do-List und ich mache mich die nächsten Tage dran. Habe jetzt doch einen genauen Blick auf die PMC-List geworfen. Du und Regina stehen da drauf?! Dann kann einer von euch beiden doch den Request committen. Oder ist das schon wieder zu einfach, da ganz kleiner Dienstweg? Gruss Markus, der jetzt erstmal für die nächsten Stunden logoff geht. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-de-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-de-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Very dissapointed
Copy to Nick - Non-Subscribed Poster Original Message From: Rob Weir robw...@apache.org To: users@openoffice.apache.org Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 22:16:39 -0500 On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 5:15 PM, nick van benthem nick_bent...@hotmail.com wrote: I deleted some text and then got it back useing control z and then the programm crashed. And i didnt saved the progress and with the recovery hÚ couldnt Get back the progress. But when did you save the file? If you deleted some text, did a control z and then the program crashed, then the file on disk has not changed. Unless you did something like: delete some text, save the file, did a control-z and then it crashed? But if you did that then you were vulnerable to many ways of losing your document, such as a power outage. -Rob - Reply message - Van: Dave Barton d...@tasit.net Aan: users@openoffice.apache.org CC: nick_bent...@hotmail.com Onderwerp: Very dissapointed Datum: za, jan. 4, 2014 19:17 Original Message From: Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com To: users@openoffice.apache.org Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:57:11 -0800 On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 7:59 AM, nick van benthem nick_bent...@hotmail.comwrote: Thanks to your great programm i've just lost 12 pages of my portfolio.. Hello Nick, and so sorry for your troubles. It would be very helpful to us if you gave more details on how this happened. Did OpenOffice find these pages but fail to open them? And if that was the cause, what was used to create these pages initially? Or, was it some other problem. Thanks for any additional details you can provide. Nick, please reply to the users@openoffice.apache.org email address, not directly to any individual. There many other list subscribers who may also be able to assist you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote: Sadly, quite nothing to do, see: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where you'll see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem. And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December: http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon... If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving you'll see 100's of reports of this as well. I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but this is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be improved IMHO. Any power shortage? Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a file having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt and cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files still there. It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone reports this kind of problem. 150 reports without this detail are useless. But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a pattern. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? USB? Network drive? 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory stick is being used. Savvy users know how to properly remove a memory stick. But not all users do. This can cause problems. Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files. A user saves a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't open. But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first. Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch. Some antivirus software does this as well. If you have a document loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled, and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a system restart is forced, what will happen? Is there a correlation to problems in that scenario? Regards, -Rob As a courtesy I have sent a copy of this reply to you as well as to the mailing list. Do Not reply to me personally but just to the list at users@openoffice.apache.org - replies to my personal email address will be ignored. Since you are not subscribed to this list you may not see all the replies to your query. To subscribe Apache OpenOffice mailing lists go to http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html NB: this is more a message for the users mailing list than for the devs. For user support you can also use The OpenOffice.org Community Forum https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ Regards, Hagar Le 04/01/2014 14:04, natalie guttridge a écrit : Please help My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when she opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can anything be done? Regards Natalie Sent from my iPad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:07:27 +0100 Josef Latt josef.l...@gmx.net wrote: Am 05.01.2014 15:06, schrieb Hagar Delest: The power shortage is clearly a root cause. Perhaps we need an old disk to test what happens when we pull the plug during a save operation. Whats about the autorecovery function of AOO. It can work, but for critical work relying on it can be catastrophic in the instances that it fails. With an unimportant file, try pulling your power cord a few times; it is not 10% reliable.. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary
Despite my fear of being considered too dumb to use OO, here's my experience: when a document I was working on (just trying to insert a line by hitting return between two lines) suddenly became all hashtag gibberish - as then did all my stored OO files - I reinstalled OO. And all was well. On Jan 5, 2014, at 11:15 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote: On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:47:59 +0100 Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: Hagar Delest wrote: losing the file saved last time is just unacceptable, it's a major data loss (P1 in the bug tracker). This problem should be investigated as seriously as possible. No bashing needed, just look at the facts. The problem here is all with reproducing the bug. OpenOffice has so many users, on so many systems, that even a problem that occurs, say, once in ten millions save operations will get reported. It's a fact that there exist some users who report losing a document. But it's not even clear if the culprit in those cases is OpenOffice, or the operating system, or a RAM problem, or a disk failure... Like you, I've been a regular OpenOffice user for many years and I never had a similar problem. A random note if this can help: to study this problem, once I tried to deliberately fill the hard disk until I had a few MBytes free. Then I opened a heavy presentation file, with many images, and edited it normally, adding and removing content. An automatic backup failed (due to the full disk) and I think an error message was displayed (I/O error). I then tried a save operation, which failed with the same error. But then I was stuck: the file I was editing was corrupted (the images did not display) and the last saved version on disk was corrupted too (of course this was a test so I had made a backup before testing). Maybe this deserves a better investigation. It could be that some or all of these bug reports are due to a full disk (I do know some people who work with 100 MBytes free on disk, so it's not even a 1 in millions scenario). The good thing is that this scenario can be reproduced. Regards, Andrea. I think there are two problems here, which both Hagar and I are aware of from the Forum. One is the Hashtag problem, which I agree is not readily reproducible and in many cases may be caused by over hasty close down of OO or operating system, the other associated problem is the erasure of the saved copy which seems to occur often alongside the hashtag problem; no matter what causes the hashtag problem, I'm sure we all agree that a saved copy of the file should not be spontaneously erased. The question should be asked When does OpenOffice erase the previous copy of the file?. Surely this should only be after the Save process reaches a conclusion. I can recollect from my CP/M days that one had to adopt a certain sequence in saving a file for best security. One saved the file to File.new (say), then renamed File.org to File.bak then renamed File.new to File.org. Is this or a similar protocol being followed in OO? Perhaps some temporary relief can be obtained by changing the options in OpenOffice to _always_ generate a backup. That would introduce other failure modes: 1) User would require disk space for two complete copies of the document. So in the marginal case a user might load a document, change just a character and then be unable to save. 2) Some file systems handle modify and create permissions separately. So you could have the ability to modify a document, but not create a new (temporary) one. There are certainly cases where such an approach could help. But it is tricky when dealing with the exceptions. The other thing to watch for is that some users cannot find their files after saving, even if there is no problem with the saving. They forget the same, what folder they used, etc. -Rob If the user turns such an option off, then on his own head be the responsibility for file loss! I should say that I have not experienced the hashtag problem in 6 years of heavy use of OO Writer on Windows 2000/XP or linux systems. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org ___ Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting http://www.doteasy.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail:
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 16:12:20 + Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote: On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:07:27 +0100 Josef Latt josef.l...@gmx.net wrote: Am 05.01.2014 15:06, schrieb Hagar Delest: The power shortage is clearly a root cause. Perhaps we need an old disk to test what happens when we pull the plug during a save operation. Whats about the autorecovery function of AOO. It can work, but for critical work relying on it can be catastrophic in the instances that it fails. With an unimportant file, try pulling your power cord a few times; it is not 10% reliable.. Sorry! 10% should read 100% -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:05:25 -0500 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote: Sadly, quite nothing to do, see: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where you'll see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem. And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December: http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon... If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving you'll see 100's of reports of this as well. With respect, we are not concerned about MS Word's reliability. But OpenOffice's ought be a matter of concern for us all. We are all on the same side here. I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but this is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be improved IMHO. Any power shortage? Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a file having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt and cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files still there. It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone reports this kind of problem. 150 reports without this detail are useless. But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a pattern. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? The Version and OS are usually indicated in the footer of the repoorting post. Most OS versions are Windows 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? USB? Network drive? In many cases to the hard disk. USB saves as you say below can unreliable and we try to separate them out from spontaneous hashtag events. 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? Hibernation/Suspend of a computer with an open OO file reportedly can cause corruption. Some hashtag/damaged archive events seem to be caused by over hasty closedown of the computer, such as by snapping laptop lid shut, or power off of the desktop before the software/hardware write buffers have flushed. Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory stick is being used. Savvy users know how to properly remove a memory stick. But not all users do. This can cause problems. We know this and advise not to work direct to a USB stick, also advising observance of correct removal protocols. Also (added information) anecdotally (also personal experience) USB sticks of earlier manufacture can fail (internal chip failure) after a smallish (circa 1000 is suggested in some postings) number of read/write cycles. I have no knowledge of more recent USB stick reliability. Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files. A user saves a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't open. But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first. Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch. Some antivirus software does this as well. If you have a document loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled, and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a system restart is forced, what will happen? Is there a correlation to problems in that scenario? -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
I have never encountered any such problem with OO. I am running Open Office 4.1 under windows 8.1 on a Hewlett Packard HP p2-1334 desk top. Jim Lambert -Original Message- From: Rory O'Farrell Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:35 AM To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: All essay text turned to hashtags On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:05:25 -0500 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote: Sadly, quite nothing to do, see: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where you'll see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem. And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December: http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon... If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving you'll see 100's of reports of this as well. With respect, we are not concerned about MS Word's reliability. But OpenOffice's ought be a matter of concern for us all. We are all on the same side here. I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but this is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be improved IMHO. Any power shortage? Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a file having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt and cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files still there. It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone reports this kind of problem. 150 reports without this detail are useless. But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a pattern. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? The Version and OS are usually indicated in the footer of the repoorting post. Most OS versions are Windows 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? USB? Network drive? In many cases to the hard disk. USB saves as you say below can unreliable and we try to separate them out from spontaneous hashtag events. 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? Hibernation/Suspend of a computer with an open OO file reportedly can cause corruption. Some hashtag/damaged archive events seem to be caused by over hasty closedown of the computer, such as by snapping laptop lid shut, or power off of the desktop before the software/hardware write buffers have flushed. Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory stick is being used. Savvy users know how to properly remove a memory stick. But not all users do. This can cause problems. We know this and advise not to work direct to a USB stick, also advising observance of correct removal protocols. Also (added information) anecdotally (also personal experience) USB sticks of earlier manufacture can fail (internal chip failure) after a smallish (circa 1000 is suggested in some postings) number of read/write cycles. I have no knowledge of more recent USB stick reliability. Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files. A user saves a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't open. But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first. Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch. Some antivirus software does this as well. If you have a document loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled, and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a system restart is forced, what will happen? Is there a correlation to problems in that scenario? -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote: Le 05/01/2014 17:05, Rob Weir a écrit : It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone reports this kind of problem. 150 reports without this detail are useless. But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a pattern. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? USB? Network drive? 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? Have you at least read the topic and the post with all the cases I've recorded??? You'll see that most of these information are available. And each linked topic usually have also these information (with more details of course). - https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677#p81363 Well, obviously reports with partial information from 5 years ago are not really useful. As I pointed out, I can show over 300 UFO sightings from just December. So what? I'm suggesting collecting this information systematically, for new reports, in 2014 using AOO 4.0.1. For example, you did not ask all of these questions when you responded to the user on this list just now. Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory stick is being used. Savvy users know how to properly remove a memory stick. But not all users do. This can cause problems. None of the 150+ cases I've recorded involve USB drives. Of course we know that case. That's why I've discarded them systematically. NB: one more case this very day. This isn't really true. I did a spot check of the reports and some of them did involve USB drives and for many of them the question was not even asked. Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files. A user saves a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't open. But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first. Again, just read the topic. Most of the files are ODF, some .doc. No exotic format like WPD. Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch. Some antivirus software does this as well. If you have a document loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled, and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a system restart is forced, what will happen? Is there a correlation to problems in that scenario? And? Even if the boot is forced, as I said, it would be understandable to lose the version that is currently under edition. But it is unacceptable to lose the saved file. And it would be unacceptable to see a UFO. The question is whether any actually have or whether it is user error. I know that this is a difficult problem but please stop trying to find a scapegoat. If nobody wants to investigate, I don't have any problem as long as I don't suffer from this issue. But then, just accept the rants from users who lost important data. NB: I've switched from MS Word to OOo after I lost data. If I ever face this problem, that would be the end of my use of AOO. Users want reliability first. All the nice features you can put in an application will never counterbalance any important data loss. No one is scapegoating. I'm just saying with 100 million users and 5 years and not a single reproducible error? Really? Seriously? -Rob Hagar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
I've clipped the previous messages as this posting doesn't depend on them. Rob suggests the following queries be put to Hashtag/file loss posters. I've added some choices to the file save destinations. Are there other questions that should be asked? Once we reach agreement on the questions I'm sure the Forum will use this questionaire to gather information on hashtag/file loss cases. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? Local Drive? USB stick? Network drive? External drive? 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
I've added your suggestion Roband Steve Ahlers to a draft document. I'll wait in case of more input and then we can consider a short questionaire and revise the wording. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags
Top posting. OK, you win. I'm fed up with this kind of discussion, so last post in this discussion. I won't ask your questions because when we ask even a basic one, very often we get no reply (I guess that frustration is for something). After almost 8 years supporting users in forums, I think that we have a reasonable 6th sense to spot the smoking guns in such problems. I'll continue to record the cases in the forum. Even if you're the most vocal one on the mailing list, I hope that some dev will try to have a look. If you think that crashed filed are like UFOs then let users experience UFOs. Hagar Le 05/01/2014 19:45, Rob Weir a écrit : On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote: Le 05/01/2014 17:05, Rob Weir a écrit : It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone reports this kind of problem. 150 reports without this detail are useless. But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a pattern. 1) What AOO version is in use? 2) What OS version? 3) What file type (extension) was being saved? 4) Where was the file being saved? USB? Network drive? 5) Is autosaved enabled? 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state? For example, had you lost power? Did the OS force a reboot? Did your laptop hibernate? Have you at least read the topic and the post with all the cases I've recorded??? You'll see that most of these information are available. And each linked topic usually have also these information (with more details of course). - https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677#p81363 Well, obviously reports with partial information from 5 years ago are not really useful. As I pointed out, I can show over 300 UFO sightings from just December. So what? I'm suggesting collecting this information systematically, for new reports, in 2014 using AOO 4.0.1. For example, you did not ask all of these questions when you responded to the user on this list just now. Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory stick is being used. Savvy users know how to properly remove a memory stick. But not all users do. This can cause problems. None of the 150+ cases I've recorded involve USB drives. Of course we know that case. That's why I've discarded them systematically. NB: one more case this very day. This isn't really true. I did a spot check of the reports and some of them did involve USB drives and for many of them the question was not even asked. Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files. A user saves a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't open. But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first. Again, just read the topic. Most of the files are ODF, some .doc. No exotic format like WPD. Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch. Some antivirus software does this as well. If you have a document loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled, and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a system restart is forced, what will happen? Is there a correlation to problems in that scenario? And? Even if the boot is forced, as I said, it would be understandable to lose the version that is currently under edition. But it is unacceptable to lose the saved file. And it would be unacceptable to see a UFO. The question is whether any actually have or whether it is user error. I know that this is a difficult problem but please stop trying to find a scapegoat. If nobody wants to investigate, I don't have any problem as long as I don't suffer from this issue. But then, just accept the rants from users who lost important data. NB: I've switched from MS Word to OOo after I lost data. If I ever face this problem, that would be the end of my use of AOO. Users want reliability first. All the nice features you can put in an application will never counterbalance any important data loss. No one is scapegoating. I'm just saying with 100 million users and 5 years and not a single reproducible error? Really? Seriously? -Rob Hagar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Anthony J. Rudgers wrote: Greetings All! The present hashtag problem is is symptomatic of the entire OO software suite. An ordinary user of OO, doing ordinary things w/ a word processor or other office-suite software, suddenly gets something that is really screwy, doesn't know what to do to fix it. Much of their production gets lost, or else, they spend a lot of time attempting to get their WP document or spreadsheet the way they want it by trying again again to get around built-in or default features (or bugs!) of OO that they don't understand or know how to modify ( OO documentation, as I have found, is meager inadequate). Unless you're a long-time dedicated user, the OO suite never seems to do quite what you'd like it to do you usually can't figure out how to fix things ON YOUR OWN COMPUTER W/ YOUR EXISTING SOFTWARE. One has to have the ability to fix things quickly on their own w/o going to the experts every time a problem w/ OO arises! For the casual user, the OO product appears flawed. People who use any software product want to spend their time creativity on what they are developing, rather than spending time effort on issues associated w/ the tool they are using to develop it. OO office software needs much effort to make it more efficient, largely error-free, much more user friendly. Beat wishes, Anthony J. Rudgers Orlando, FL U.S.A. Mr. Rudgers; Though your criticism bears much truth I feel it over emphasizes certain aspects. Many of the support questions that are seen here and on the forums are in the ways that AOO differs from other software of the same type. Most of my 20+ years in industry were spent in doing direct support and I know from experience that many ordinary users frequntly do not even bother to consult the help resources that are available or just complain that it does not work like xyz did. This particular problem is one that is very difficult to track down because it happens so infrequently that it is difficult for QA and developers to replicate. You say that documentation is meager and inadequate. I would direct you to https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOo3_User_Guides/OOo3.3_User_Guide_Chapters. Though these are for Version 3.3 much of the information they contain is relevant to later versions, including version 4.0.1. Also available is a getting started guide for version 3.4 from http://www.odfauthors.org/apache-openoffice/english/user-guides/getting-started-3.4/published. There is an ongoing documentation effort to create up to date documentation for Version 4 and beyond on the wiki. We are always looking for volunteers to help with this effort and could use your knowledge and skills in this effort. More information can be found at our orientation page at http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/intro-doc.html. All software is imperfect and has bugs. The only way any software product to improve is open and honest dialog between all parties. This is specially true for Open Source Software. Honest discussion on venues such as this and clear reports of possible bugs in the projects Bugzilla tracking system at https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ are ways that all users can help make this a better product. The QA volunteers have provided excellent hints for creating good bug reports in Bugzilla at https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/QA/HowToFileIssue. Regards Keith N. McKenna -Original Message- From: Gary Frost Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:26 PM To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: All essay text turned to hashtags Maybe, I'm an anomaly here, but I've never had any of these issues at all. Generally, I work on a MacBook Air with the current up to date OS. I do also create PDFs so that I can work on documents on my iPhone in Pages. Using the iPhone is usefully for last minute work for me. I've thought about good version options for other iOS devices such as the iPad Air which I intend to purchase. I work scrips and other technical documents so it is essential for me to use best practices to prevent loss of work. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 4, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Alan Cliffe drspecta...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I don't know if it can be retrieved; for whatever it's worth, I've had that happen too once or twice so now I always create a PDF copy of everything I do in OO. From: natalie guttridge natalieguttri...@hotmail.co.uk To: users@openoffice.apache.org users@openoffice.apache.org Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2014 8:04 AM Subject: All essay text turned to hashtags Please help My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when she opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can anything be done? Regards Natalie Sent from my iPad - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
Re: All essay text turned to hash [marks]--commentary
The present hashtag problem ... hashtag : n ... a word or phrase preceded by a hash mark, used to denote the topic of a post (Collins English Dictionary Complete and Unabridged) Brian Barker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Folks seeking help
rant I came to this list a long time ago and have seen a great number of people simply berated for seeking help with what to them is a serious problem. If a user has made their way to this list they are already frustrated, most likely confused and probably angry they haven't found an official support system in place for the product they are using. They have no clue what a bug report is, they have no true understanding of what community supported software is all about. They have no clue you are volunteering your time and efforts. All they want is help solving their immediate issue. Folks responding with just open your backup is no help at all and will only push the user to drop OO altogether. To some of you I'm sure that's fine, you are seasoned users, maybe even experts and you would gladly not have to bother with the noob, but that's not what this list is about. It's about support. Supporting the users of Open Office no matter their level of experience. If you don't want to help -- PLEASE don't. Just go on your merry way and let those that are willing take on the task at hand. Please be polite and offer constructive suggestions and recommendations. Hold their hand and walk them through step by step if you need to, but please don't brush 'em off. Yes, it's a lot of work but in the end you will have an educated user that may be able and willing to help others down the line. /rant -- Just my two cents. -- Timothy Wulf -- An Open Office user
