Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries
If you care about the product of your own work, it 's personal. O.S.S. is based on self motivated developers who, by definition, care about their work. On 06 Sep 2007 19:36:36 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No Igor. Software is never personal. war is personal, dying of my mother, > father and youg brother bombed by army aircraft is personal but software > sure not ;-) > > If you can point me please to ANY of the disrespect sentences, except AL`s > \"why are you still bitching about it\" please do it ... :-) > > Robo > > > - Originálna Správa - > Od: \"Igor Vaynberg\" > Komu: > Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:36 > Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries > > > > > On 06 Sep 2007 17:35:26 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > > > > > Stop it now please Al. You take oo personal aproach. Nobody forced you > in > > > responding. > > > > > > heh, what you have to understand is that wicket is oss - so it IS > personal. > > it is something we work on in our spare time so it is kind of a hobby (a > > demanding hobby). we do care about it a great deal. constructive > criticism > > is always welcome, but you have to have a level of respect on the lists. > > > > You make Wicket And I`m the user. If you do not like it do not do it. > But > > > there is some responsibilities about product you develop towards > product > > > users so do not confuse roles please. > > > > > > wrong again. its the other way around. if you do not like it do not use > it. > > we do not owe you anything. we put wicket out there for people to use, > no > > strings attached. > > > > And besides that I`m also kind of customer As I paid for the book ;-) > > > > > > you paid for the book, but we get nothing from that. so how do you > connect > > the dots? > > > > And besides that I several times said how Wicket is great is that not > enaugh > > > for you? :-)) > > > > > > thank you. > > > > And btw I thanked to Gvyn at the end of my troubles as his responcese > solved > > > them. I do not thank before my troubles gets solved ;-) I`m not > teacher in > > > the dance school. > > > > > > its not the missing thank you, it is more your superior attitute and > your > > lecturing tone. so in fact you do come across as a teacher. > > > > What I`m doing now is preparing presentation to my chiefs and currrently > I`m > > > coping with five frameworks amking demo apps and have two weeks for > it. That > > > is Why I`m not writing wiki and that is why I`m sometimes upset about > lack > > > of docs, working 18-20 hours per day ... > > > > > > sounds like your chiefs are pretty dumb if they expect you to learn five > > frameworks in two weeks, find a better job. > > > > as for the issue at hand, i believe the velocity initializer should be > > rewritten to check if whatever it needs is actually on the classpath, > and > > noop quietly if its not. please file a jira issue. > > > > > > > > -igor > > > > > > Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation > > > where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you > normally do > > > not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they > should > > > do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... > :-) > > > > > > So Finishing this personal thread and thank you for much of your time > ;-)) > > > > > > Robo > > > > > > > > > - Originálna Správa - > > > Od: Al Maw > > > Komu: > > > Poslaná: 06.09.2007 17:44 > > > Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > > > > > > > Robo wrote: > > > > > Ok, seems removing \\\"wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\\\" > from build > > > > > path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me > why > > > > > removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in > my > > > > > Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there > > > > > some duplicities in packages or what? > > > > > > > > I expect because Wicket looks on the classpath for Wicket modules to > > > > initialise, finds some in that JAR, tries to and then can\\\'t find > one of > > > > its dependencies. > > > > > > > > Modern Java apps tend to be complex beasts, wi
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries
No Igor. Software is never personal. war is personal, dying of my mother, father and youg brother bombed by army aircraft is personal but software sure not ;-) If you can point me please to ANY of the disrespect sentences, except AL`s \"why are you still bitching about it\" please do it ... :-) Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Igor Vaynberg\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:36 Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries > > On 06 Sep 2007 17:35:26 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > > > Stop it now please Al. You take oo personal aproach. Nobody forced you in > > responding. > > > heh, what you have to understand is that wicket is oss - so it IS personal. > it is something we work on in our spare time so it is kind of a hobby (a > demanding hobby). we do care about it a great deal. constructive criticism > is always welcome, but you have to have a level of respect on the lists. > > You make Wicket And I`m the user. If you do not like it do not do it. But > > there is some responsibilities about product you develop towards product > > users so do not confuse roles please. > > > wrong again. its the other way around. if you do not like it do not use it. > we do not owe you anything. we put wicket out there for people to use, no > strings attached. > > And besides that I`m also kind of customer As I paid for the book ;-) > > > you paid for the book, but we get nothing from that. so how do you connect > the dots? > > And besides that I several times said how Wicket is great is that not enaugh > > for you? :-)) > > > thank you. > > And btw I thanked to Gvyn at the end of my troubles as his responcese solved > > them. I do not thank before my troubles gets solved ;-) I`m not teacher in > > the dance school. > > > its not the missing thank you, it is more your superior attitute and your > lecturing tone. so in fact you do come across as a teacher. > > What I`m doing now is preparing presentation to my chiefs and currrently I`m > > coping with five frameworks amking demo apps and have two weeks for it. That > > is Why I`m not writing wiki and that is why I`m sometimes upset about lack > > of docs, working 18-20 hours per day ... > > > sounds like your chiefs are pretty dumb if they expect you to learn five > frameworks in two weeks, find a better job. > > as for the issue at hand, i believe the velocity initializer should be > rewritten to check if whatever it needs is actually on the classpath, and > noop quietly if its not. please file a jira issue. > > > > -igor > > > Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation > > where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally do > > not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they should > > do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... :-) > > > > So Finishing this personal thread and thank you for much of your time ;-)) > > > > Robo > > > > > > - Originálna Správa - > > Od: Al Maw > > Komu: > > Poslaná: 06.09.2007 17:44 > > Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > > > > > Robo wrote: > > > > Ok, seems removing \\\"wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\\\" from > > > > build > > > > path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me why > > > > removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in my > > > > Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there > > > > some duplicities in packages or what? > > > > > > I expect because Wicket looks on the classpath for Wicket modules to > > > initialise, finds some in that JAR, tries to and then can\\\'t find one of > > > its dependencies. > > > > > > Modern Java apps tend to be complex beasts, with lots of dependencies. > > > If you insist on managing these manually, you can expect to have a fair > > > bit of work to do. That\\\'s why things like Ivy and Maven 2 were > > invented. > > > > > > > As to Maven2. It seems that like you in some way force developers to > > Maven2. :-) > > > > > > No, not at all. But if you\\\'ve deliberately chosen to manage your > > > dependencies manually when there are perfectly good ways of doing it > > > automatically, then we\\\'re not going to hold your hand for you. We > > don\\\'t > > > get paid to do this, you know. > > > > > > If you don\\\'t like Maven 2 no one is forcing you to use it. Use Ivy > > > instead
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Sorry Eelco but I did not start this small personal war. In my previus of topic marked post I said lot of good about wicket and made lot of PLEASE do this ... I know you have lot of work ... IMHO ... and so on ... Also thanked to Gwyn? ... :-))) Al getted touched about my troubles with Maven, you started to talking b.s. and mindless way of something and started to solve and the same time started to solve some morality questions and so on. Gwyn started to look for truth in Joke :-)) POint me in one of my post when I said about Maven, or your work, that it is b.s. or mindless something. ... YOu will not find it. And also any personal negative sentences towards to any of the developers. I`m not trying to be polite. I`m rying to be correct to people. At the same time you are too polite and agresive ... :-) So after more than 26 hours of programming and mailing I`ll go for a Little bit of sleep. :-)) Bye Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Eelco Hillenius\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:54 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace > On 06 Sep 2007 18:32:44 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > Yes I know Eelco. That is why there are so much troubles in Java > > programming land. Misusing of basic concepts ... That is why one needs some > > sort of COC, because there is lot`s of b.s. around ... J2EE 1.4 countained > > so much of it that lots of developers refused to use it And it had to be > > rewriten ... Apache Struts ... JSF ... Why did you started Wicket? Did`nt > > you wrote that MVC is kind of missconceptin? And I ask you Who told that? > > Eelco Hilenius? Yes and you were probably right. And in that time you with > > the tapestry was alone against the JSF Struts community. So accpet pleace > > that someone else is seeing miisconceptions and b.s. in other aspetcs of > > java programming and habits. OK? :-) > > Sure. You know, if you would just try to have a little bit more of a > constructive tone... I\'m sure we can patch wicket-velocity so that it > avoids pulling in Velocity too early. And maybe the project tries to > do too much upfront. Should be pretty easy to fix if you want to > create a JIRA issue for it. > > About calling initializers (that\'s what triggers Velocity loading in > this case), the feature is generally nice. We can use it to e.g. > automatically register shared resources or like wicket-jmx does, > register resources, so that to enable functionality in that lib is as > easy as dropping in a jar. That\'s pretty cool functionality in my > book. > > Eelco > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Najpopulárnejší blog na Slovensku - http://blog.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
On 06 Sep 2007 18:32:44 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes I know Eelco. That is why there are so much troubles in Java programming > land. Misusing of basic concepts ... That is why one needs some sort of COC, > because there is lot`s of b.s. around ... J2EE 1.4 countained so much of it > that lots of developers refused to use it And it had to be rewriten ... > Apache Struts ... JSF ... Why did you started Wicket? Did`nt you wrote that > MVC is kind of missconceptin? And I ask you Who told that? Eelco Hilenius? > Yes and you were probably right. And in that time you with the tapestry was > alone against the JSF Struts community. So accpet pleace that someone else is > seeing miisconceptions and b.s. in other aspetcs of java programming and > habits. OK? :-) Sure. You know, if you would just try to have a little bit more of a constructive tone... I'm sure we can patch wicket-velocity so that it avoids pulling in Velocity too early. And maybe the project tries to do too much upfront. Should be pretty easy to fix if you want to create a JIRA issue for it. About calling initializers (that's what triggers Velocity loading in this case), the feature is generally nice. We can use it to e.g. automatically register shared resources or like wicket-jmx does, register resources, so that to enable functionality in that lib is as easy as dropping in a jar. That's pretty cool functionality in my book. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries
On 06 Sep 2007 18:24:44 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry Eelco but me and also quite a lot of other developers(I know, contrary > to others developers) consider same b.s. libraries which are \"alive\" just > because they are in classpath. It is like talking when nobody asks you ... > Look at Java SDK do you need all packages to build console \"Hello World!\" > No. And who cares. They are just there and do their stuff when needed. So why > wicket-velocity is doing job developer do not want and did not asked to. > Where is writen that I cannot put mindesly tens of useles libs when they just > sit there, assuming of course the packages are not duplicating. Do you > understand why there are packages Eelco. Unles the class is uniqeu develioper > should not be afreaid of using other class he wanted. To push your false > premise to edge, why you deliberatly put all packages and classes into jar > when you need just few of them also with dependencies. Isn`t it b.s.? Yes it > is .. and also it is not conceptual ... Do not make zombie libraries and > there wi ll > be no problem with dependecies. Got the point? If not I`m not alble not > help you sorry ... Yeah, it's not that I don't get your point, it's just that I don't agree. What I'm saying is that you don't live in that perfect world and not all software acts like you seem to expect. There is no rule that you can't what we do, and Java makes it possible. AND many other frameworks do this kind of initialization as well, so you can have the same problem in many other occasions. Not to mention problems with versioning and shared server libs you might have (especially with older app server versions) if you just include every jar you come across. Anyway, to my knowledge, wicket-velocity is the only project that initializes pulling in more dependencies. And as you're not using that, we can end this discussion now. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
On 06 Sep 2007 17:35:26 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Stop it now please Al. You take oo personal aproach. Nobody forced you in > responding. heh, what you have to understand is that wicket is oss - so it IS personal. it is something we work on in our spare time so it is kind of a hobby (a demanding hobby). we do care about it a great deal. constructive criticism is always welcome, but you have to have a level of respect on the lists. You make Wicket And I`m the user. If you do not like it do not do it. But > there is some responsibilities about product you develop towards product > users so do not confuse roles please. wrong again. its the other way around. if you do not like it do not use it. we do not owe you anything. we put wicket out there for people to use, no strings attached. And besides that I`m also kind of customer As I paid for the book ;-) you paid for the book, but we get nothing from that. so how do you connect the dots? And besides that I several times said how Wicket is great is that not enaugh > for you? :-)) thank you. And btw I thanked to Gvyn at the end of my troubles as his responcese solved > them. I do not thank before my troubles gets solved ;-) I`m not teacher in > the dance school. its not the missing thank you, it is more your superior attitute and your lecturing tone. so in fact you do come across as a teacher. What I`m doing now is preparing presentation to my chiefs and currrently I`m > coping with five frameworks amking demo apps and have two weeks for it. That > is Why I`m not writing wiki and that is why I`m sometimes upset about lack > of docs, working 18-20 hours per day ... sounds like your chiefs are pretty dumb if they expect you to learn five frameworks in two weeks, find a better job. as for the issue at hand, i believe the velocity initializer should be rewritten to check if whatever it needs is actually on the classpath, and noop quietly if its not. please file a jira issue. -igor Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation > where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally do > not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they should > do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... :-) > > So Finishing this personal thread and thank you for much of your time ;-)) > > Robo > > > - Originálna Správa - > Od: Al Maw > Komu: > Poslaná: 06.09.2007 17:44 > Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > > > Robo wrote: > > > Ok, seems removing \\\"wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\\\" from build > > > path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me why > > > removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in my > > > Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there > > > some duplicities in packages or what? > > > > I expect because Wicket looks on the classpath for Wicket modules to > > initialise, finds some in that JAR, tries to and then can\'t find one of > > its dependencies. > > > > Modern Java apps tend to be complex beasts, with lots of dependencies. > > If you insist on managing these manually, you can expect to have a fair > > bit of work to do. That\'s why things like Ivy and Maven 2 were > invented. > > > > > As to Maven2. It seems that like you in some way force developers to > Maven2. :-) > > > > No, not at all. But if you\'ve deliberately chosen to manage your > > dependencies manually when there are perfectly good ways of doing it > > automatically, then we\'re not going to hold your hand for you. We > don\'t > > get paid to do this, you know. > > > > If you don\'t like Maven 2 no one is forcing you to use it. Use Ivy > > instead. Or use the standalone Maven 2 Ant tasks for doing dependencies. > > > > Alternatively, install Maven 2, use it to build a quickstart WAR file > > with all the things you need, and then grab the JARs from there. > > > > Any of these options would take you a tenth of the time you\'ve spent > > bitching on this mailing list. > > > > > Yes Maven solves you some problems with dependecies and also si > > > suitable for small project but at big projects it definitely fails. > > > :-/ > > > > So Geronimo is a small project? And Jetty? And Apache Directory Server? > > And Wicket for that matter? And the several-hundreds-of-thousands-of- > > lines, 200+ dependencies projects we have here that use it? Jeez - I may > > have a high horse, but yours is scraping the stratosphere. Sure, it has > > some issues, but so does anything complex. > > > > The simple point is that for most people, Ivy or Maven 2 do what they > > want it to do. If you don\'t like any of these automated tools and > insist > > on doing it all manually, you can\'t expect us to have all that much > time > > for you, as we don\'t get paid to do this, you know. It\'s like you\'re > > complaining that there\'s no documentation on how to hammer in a nail > > using a screwdriver. > > > > > So please. I kn
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Yes I know Eelco. That is why there are so much troubles in Java programming land. Misusing of basic concepts ... That is why one needs some sort of COC, because there is lot`s of b.s. around ... J2EE 1.4 countained so much of it that lots of developers refused to use it And it had to be rewriten ... Apache Struts ... JSF ... Why did you started Wicket? Did`nt you wrote that MVC is kind of missconceptin? And I ask you Who told that? Eelco Hilenius? Yes and you were probably right. And in that time you with the tapestry was alone against the JSF Struts community. So accpet pleace that someone else is seeing miisconceptions and b.s. in other aspetcs of java programming and habits. OK? :-) Can we finish? As you can see I do not share view of major java programmers but accepting the situation ... :-)) Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Eelco Hillenius\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:08 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace > On 06 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > After small troubles I had with it I know it. But from my point of view it > > is not correct to initiatie not used libraries just by including it in App > > Server classpath. From my point of view lib is lib, and when nto called by > > developer it sould not be initiated by App server. I runned into troubles > > with dependecies SELF initialized itself. I saw this behaviur several times > > before but everytime I`m suprised. As I said from my point of view, lib is > > lib. But this guides me to troubles :-) But to be concrete I need to > > develop demo app using fove frameworks, not using Maven :-), so I put every > > lib in wicket into lib dir to not to solve missing lib troubles when > > building demo app. But it raised contrary, unnessesary \\\"self living\\\" > > lib problem. > > You can\'t really depend on libs following such rules. All sorts of > frameworks do this, from Guice to Seam to logging libraries, and it > can get you in trouble with XML handling as well. As a general rule, > only include what you need. > > Eelco > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Mozaika storočia denníka SME - http://mozaika.sme.sk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Sorry Eelco but me and also quite a lot of other developers(I know, contrary to others developers) consider same b.s. libraries which are \"alive\" just because they are in classpath. It is like talking when nobody asks you ... Look at Java SDK do you need all packages to build console \"Hello World!\" No. And who cares. They are just there and do their stuff when needed. So why wicket-velocity is doing job developer do not want and did not asked to. Where is writen that I cannot put mindesly tens of useles libs when they just sit there, assuming of course the packages are not duplicating. Do you understand why there are packages Eelco. Unles the class is uniqeu develioper should not be afreaid of using other class he wanted. To push your false premise to edge, why you deliberatly put all packages and classes into jar when you need just few of them also with dependencies. Isn`t it b.s.? Yes it is .. and also it is not conceptual ... Do not make zombie libraries and there will be no problem with dependecies. Got the point? If not I`m not alble not help you sorry ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Eelco Hillenius\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:59 Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries > > Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation > > where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally > > do not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they > > should do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... > > :-) > > Sorry, but that is b.s. Could you point me where this \'rule\' is > defined? You bet you can have troubles if you just mindlessly include > all kinds of jars. Furthermore, what is your whole point of having to > include jars you are not using? If you would be using them, you\'d need > those other dependencies, period. > > Eelco > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Najoriginalnejsie technologicke hracky - http://pocitace.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
On 06 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > After small troubles I had with it I know it. But from my point of view it is > not correct to initiatie not used libraries just by including it in App > Server classpath. From my point of view lib is lib, and when nto called by > developer it sould not be initiated by App server. I runned into troubles > with dependecies SELF initialized itself. I saw this behaviur several times > before but everytime I`m suprised. As I said from my point of view, lib is > lib. But this guides me to troubles :-) But to be concrete I need to develop > demo app using fove frameworks, not using Maven :-), so I put every lib in > wicket into lib dir to not to solve missing lib troubles when building demo > app. But it raised contrary, unnessesary \"self living\" lib problem. You can't really depend on libs following such rules. All sorts of frameworks do this, from Guice to Seam to logging libraries, and it can get you in trouble with XML handling as well. As a general rule, only include what you need. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
After small troubles I had with it I know it. But from my point of view it is not correct to initiatie not used libraries just by including it in App Server classpath. From my point of view lib is lib, and when nto called by developer it sould not be initiated by App server. I runned into troubles with dependecies SELF initialized itself. I saw this behaviur several times before but everytime I`m suprised. As I said from my point of view, lib is lib. But this guides me to troubles :-) But to be concrete I need to develop demo app using fove frameworks, not using Maven :-), so I put every lib in wicket into lib dir to not to solve missing lib troubles when building demo app. But it raised contrary, unnessesary \"self living\" lib problem. So Eelco we could probably close this thread as my troubles with Hello World are solved, now begins the trouble with demo app. So thanks for help and good product. Demo app will be presented week after next week so we`ll see hov wicket compares to other frameworks. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Eelco Hillenius\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:17 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace > On 06 Sep 2007 17:23:13 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > And why not? Besides that Wicket is doing some initialization of not used > > libraries is there any restriction of not including not neccesary libraries > > in classpath? Most time I develop someting I have many libraries in my > > classpath even if I do not use them ... > > Because you seem to be running into trouble with your dependencies. If > you include wicket-velocity, you need Velocity (which you could have > guessed from the name of the project) and any dependencies Velocity > has. If don\'t include wicket-velocity, you don\'t need Velocity. It\'s > that simple. > > Eelco > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Sprievodca herným svetom - http://hry.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
> Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation where > you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally do not > expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they should do > nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... :-) Sorry, but that is b.s. Could you point me where this 'rule' is defined? You bet you can have troubles if you just mindlessly include all kinds of jars. Furthermore, what is your whole point of having to include jars you are not using? If you would be using them, you'd need those other dependencies, period. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Stop it now please Al. You take oo personal aproach. Nobody forced you in responding. You make Wicket And I`m the user. If you do not like it do not do it. But there is some responsibilities about product you develop towards product users so do not confuse roles please. And besides that I`m also kind of customer As I paid for the book ;-) And besides that I several times said how Wicket is great is that not enaugh for you? :-)) And btw I thanked to Gvyn at the end of my troubles as his responcese solved them. I do not thank before my troubles gets solved ;-) I`m not teacher in the dance school. What I`m doing now is preparing presentation to my chiefs and currrently I`m coping with five frameworks amking demo apps and have two weeks for it. That is Why I`m not writing wiki and that is why I`m sometimes upset about lack of docs, working 18-20 hours per day ... Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally do not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they should do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... :-) So Finishing this personal thread and thank you for much of your time ;-)) Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: Al Maw Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 17:44 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > Robo wrote: > > Ok, seems removing \\\"wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\\\" from build > > path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me why > > removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in my > > Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there > > some duplicities in packages or what? > > I expect because Wicket looks on the classpath for Wicket modules to > initialise, finds some in that JAR, tries to and then can\'t find one of > its dependencies. > > Modern Java apps tend to be complex beasts, with lots of dependencies. > If you insist on managing these manually, you can expect to have a fair > bit of work to do. That\'s why things like Ivy and Maven 2 were invented. > > > As to Maven2. It seems that like you in some way force developers to > > Maven2. :-) > > No, not at all. But if you\'ve deliberately chosen to manage your > dependencies manually when there are perfectly good ways of doing it > automatically, then we\'re not going to hold your hand for you. We don\'t > get paid to do this, you know. > > If you don\'t like Maven 2 no one is forcing you to use it. Use Ivy > instead. Or use the standalone Maven 2 Ant tasks for doing dependencies. > > Alternatively, install Maven 2, use it to build a quickstart WAR file > with all the things you need, and then grab the JARs from there. > > Any of these options would take you a tenth of the time you\'ve spent > bitching on this mailing list. > > > Yes Maven solves you some problems with dependecies and also si > > suitable for small project but at big projects it definitely fails. > > :-/ > > So Geronimo is a small project? And Jetty? And Apache Directory Server? > And Wicket for that matter? And the several-hundreds-of-thousands-of- > lines, 200+ dependencies projects we have here that use it? Jeez - I may > have a high horse, but yours is scraping the stratosphere. Sure, it has > some issues, but so does anything complex. > > The simple point is that for most people, Ivy or Maven 2 do what they > want it to do. If you don\'t like any of these automated tools and insist > on doing it all manually, you can\'t expect us to have all that much time > for you, as we don\'t get paid to do this, you know. It\'s like you\'re > complaining that there\'s no documentation on how to hammer in a nail > using a screwdriver. > > > So please. I know you have lot of work with wicket, and as users can > see you have a good aproach. But please do spend some time to at least > write one chapter about libraries, neede dependencies and so on. If you > have licensing problems just make one clear site with core libs link, > dep libs link and explanation what feature they are enabling and so on. > And make some quick start page in which you explainn dependecies on > simple sample app :-)Do not take alibistic aproach of hiding everithing > besides Maven. :-) > > Why don\'t you write a wiki page for us? > > Despite the fact I\'m not being paid to be your tech support, I\'ve taken > some time out to give you a text file exhaustively detailing the > required dependencies for each of our modules, including the transitive > ones. I have done the work for you (not that you\'ve even murmured a > thank you), so why are you still bitching about it? > > > Al > -- > Alastair Maw > Wicket-biased blog at http://herebebeasties.com > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Svetova kniznica SME - lit
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
On 06 Sep 2007 17:23:13 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And why not? Besides that Wicket is doing some initialization of not used > libraries is there any restriction of not including not neccesary libraries > in classpath? Most time I develop someting I have many libraries in my > classpath even if I do not use them ... Because you seem to be running into trouble with your dependencies. If you include wicket-velocity, you need Velocity (which you could have guessed from the name of the project) and any dependencies Velocity has. If don't include wicket-velocity, you don't need Velocity. It's that simple. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
And why not? Besides that Wicket is doing some initialization of not used libraries is there any restriction of not including not neccesary libraries in classpath? Most time I develop someting I have many libraries in my classpath even if I do not use them ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \"Eelco Hillenius\" Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:09 Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace > On 06 Sep 2007 11:44:56 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: > > Ok Thnaks for explanation. > > > > And do not look for truth in jokes. Jokes are just jokes ;-) > > But you are not using Velocity panel right? Why do you include that > jar in the first place? You can just include the core wicket jar. > > Eelco > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Mozaika storočia denníka SME - http://mozaika.sme.sk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
On 06 Sep 2007 11:44:56 +0200 (CEST), Robo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ok Thnaks for explanation. > > And do not look for truth in jokes. Jokes are just jokes ;-) But you are not using Velocity panel right? Why do you include that jar in the first place? You can just include the core wicket jar. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Ok Thnaks for explanation. And do not look for truth in jokes. Jokes are just jokes ;-) Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: Gwyn Evans Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 12:05 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace > On Thursday, September 6, 2007, 9:52:46 AM, Robo wrote: > > > So after I put wicket-velocity jar in my build path, I`m getting > > following errors. (I`m using nothing from it and the prove is > > when I remove it it deploys OK.) > ... > > So please explain me why Tomcat is complaining at deployment time > > about velocity just including it in the build path? > > What\'s happening is that the Wicket Application instance has searched > the classpath to read all the wicket.properties files provided. The > one in the wicket-velocity jar says > \"initializer=org.apache.wicket.velocity.Initializer\", so it\'s trying > to run that initializer instance, but you\'re missing the dependances. > > If using Maven, you\'d have them, but if not, you can go to > MvnRepository (http://mvnrepository.com/) and search which would take > you to http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/velocity/velocity/1.4 where > it shows that you need velocity-dep-1.4.jar too. > > That\'s a useful site to bookmark, whether using Maven or not (probably > even more if not!) > > /Gwyn > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Hello Gwyn, So after I put wicket-velocity jar in my build path, I`m getting following errors. (I`m using nothing from it and the prove is when I remove it it deploys OK.) ---6.9.2007 11:37:21 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/velocity/app/Velocity at org.apache.wicket.velocity.Initializer.init(Initializer.java:64) at org.apache.wicket.Application.callInitializers(Application.java:808) at org.apache.wicket.Application.initializeComponents(Application.java:638) at org.apache.wicket.protocol.http.WicketFilter.init(WicketFilter.java:423) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.getFilter(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:275) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.setFilterDef(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:397) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:108) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.filterStart(StandardContext.java:3693) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.start(StandardContext.java:4340) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.addChildInternal(ContainerBase.java:791) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.addChild(ContainerBase.java:771) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHost.addChild(StandardHost.java:525) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.deployDescriptor(HostConfig.java:626) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.deployDescriptors(HostConfig.java:553) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.deployApps(HostConfig.java:488) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.start(HostConfig.java:1138) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.lifecycleEvent(HostConfig.java:311) at org.apache.catalina.util.LifecycleSupport.fireLifecycleEvent(LifecycleSupport.java:117) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.start(ContainerBase.java:1053) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHost.start(StandardHost.java:719) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.start(ContainerBase.java:1045) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngine.start(StandardEngine.java:443) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardService.start(StandardService.java:516) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardServer.start(StandardServer.java:710) at org.apache.catalina.startup.Catalina.start(Catalina.java:566) at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method) at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java:39) at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:25) at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:597) at org.apache.catalina.startup.Bootstrap.start(Bootstrap.java:288) at org.apache.catalina.startup.Bootstrap.main(Bootstrap.java:413) 6.9.2007 11:37:25 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/velocity/app/Velocity at org.apache.wicket.velocity.Initializer.init(Initializer.java:64) at org.apache.wicket.Application.callInitializers(Application.java:808) at org.apache.wicket.Application.initializeComponents(Application.java:638) at org.apache.wicket.protocol.http.WicketFilter.init(WicketFilter.java:423) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.getFilter(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:275) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.setFilterDef(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:397) at org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterConfig.(ApplicationFilterConfig.java:108) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.filterStart(StandardContext.java:3693) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.start(StandardContext.java:4340) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.addChildInternal(ContainerBase.java:791) at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.addChild(ContainerBase.java:771) at org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHost.addChild(StandardHost.java:525) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.deployDescriptor(HostConfig.java:626) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.deployApps(HostConfig.java:511) at org.apache.catalina.startup.HostConfig.check(HostConfig.java:1220) at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method) at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java:39) at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.java:25) at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:597) at org.apache.tomcat.util.modeler.BaseModelMBean.invoke(BaseModelMBean.java:297) at com.sun.jmx.interceptor.DefaultMBeanServerInterceptor.invoke(Defaul
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Hello, Ok, seems removing \"wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\" from build path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me why removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in my Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there some duplicities in packages or what? As to Maven2. It seems that like you in some way force developers to Maven2. :-) In wicket inAction EA there is just mentioned that when using Ant you need to do some work about libraries ant Maven manages it for you. This is too little for serious docs. Please do look into Icefaces free docs. There is steb by step mentioned what libs one need to enable which feature and the libs are added as demo app more feature ritch. Developer needs to understand core functionalities and dependencies. Just After understandig this developer is able to set up Ant project, make project, Eclipse or Netbeans based project and if you want also Maven. :-) But many of the advices about libs was \"Use Maven2\" like. If you use it, so use it but do not force me to use it. Explain in some part od book or docs what do I need to run which part of wicket to save my time to go into jars and solve dependencies troubles. Yes Maven solves you some problems with dependecies and also si suitable for small pr oject but at big projects it definitely fails. :-/ So please. I know you have lot of work with wicket, and as users can see you have a good aproach. But please do spend some time to at least write one chapter about libraries, neede dependencies and so on. If you have licensing problems just make one clear site with core libs link, dep libs link and explanation what feature they are enabling and so on. And make some quick start page in which you explainn dependecies on simple sample app :-)Do not take alibistic aproach of hiding everithing besides Maven. :-) Off topic section: We use Maven for more than one year, also Maven2, in the begining there was some WoW`s about how Maven Manages project. Really great. But as the project continued and wee needed to add many not so standard feature to project, like advanced autorization, very non standard libraries we were forced in the troubles wchich could be avoided when there was no Maven2. also the project layout is not the best for our taste. IMHO of cource. Rewriting project build to ANT took us 6 days, but from that time we saved us a lot of time and nerves of solving Maven troubles. From that time we just developed, exactly what we were paid for. Idea of Maven2 is very nice and usefull, but implementation is kind of tragedy :-/. If I would Alayster Crowley I`d like Maven. Because its black magic, but I`m just dump developer who is not even to able to hypnotize someone :-)). as we talked about Ant and Maven2 we really realized the good sides of Maven. but Ant has simple basic idea with few bilding bloc ks, which when you combine them wiselly works perfectly. YOU do no need to study Ant. Just use it. In Maven wee need to study Maven, Study black Magic without success. :-) It remainds me of one Joke. Americans was looking for some pen, which could be used in space without troubles, They invested 1 000 000 $ in research and finally had one. Russians in the meantime used pencils. :-) (If you do not like Russians just switch the roles ;-) ) So we found Maven2 usefull with small to mid project with some commonly used libraries but here it stops. Once you set up good dependencies in Ant you well understand what library you use and why (maven shields you from this in some way) and yuo are able to solve troubles with build system fast. We do not really to care about looking for jars in google. Using Maven it is not that time saving. It is more confortable I agree, but not worth the time to solve Maven troubles. There is lot of buzz about \"Convention over configuration\", But if that convention is badly designed, like Maven project layout, our aproach is flexibility over convention. (Jsp is convention but then came grrat wicket wchich is typical flexibility over convention, or good convention over bad convention :-) ). But reality besides Rails and Wicket I did not see any good convention (over configuration). EnD of off topic: Uff ;-) Robert - Originálna Správa - Od: Jonathan Locke Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 04:07 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > > > not only would the download be bigger, but there would be all kinds of > licensing headaches. some jar files might not even be legally distributed > in an aggregated download. i also hated maven at first, but you do get > used to it and it has gotten a LOT better (even if gosling is still a better > concept and foundation for a build system ;-)). > > > Al Maw wrote: > > > > Robo wrote: > >> Why there is no complete distribution of jar`s, needed to run Wicket > >> aplication just \\\"out of the box\\\". it is a little bit boring to find > >> out that I also need
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Hello Al. I worked on some big project where Maven was used(or misused) and form that tme I refuse to solve Maven troubles so Skipping the Maven stuff as this is nto the case: I used to manage dependencies myself and I buil Hello WOrld Application from scratch. Just Hello World. Until I put velocity-1.4.jar and velocity-dep-1.4.jar I have got following errors at deploy time. 5.9.2007 14:31:37 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/commons/collections/ExtendedProperties at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeInstance.(RuntimeInstance.java:160) at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeSingleton.(RuntimeSingleton.java:95) at org.apache.velocity.app.Velocity.init(Velocity.java:106) . 5.9.2007 14:31:38 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/commons/collections/ExtendedProperties at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeInstance.(RuntimeInstance.java:160) at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeSingleton.(RuntimeSingleton.java:95) at org.apache.velocity.app.Velocity.init(Velocity.java:106) . So there is sure dependency in Wicket why developer needs to include these two velocity packages. This is the plus and cons of self managing libraries ... :-) Sure one can find libraries in examples folder but this is not conceptual aproach. I need runtime libraries and expect them exactly where they has to be and not looking for needed libs in examples/demo/tutor directories. There is so much wicket*.jar duplicated libraries that duplicating log4j and velocity is minor in package size question. So if you do not want duplicity do not duplicate even wicket libs, or if you wanrt completness include also libs needed to be wicket usable out of the box :-) Robert - Originálna Správa - Od: Al Maw Komu: Poslaná: 05.09.2007 14:56 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries > Robo wrote: > > Why there is no complete distribution of jar`s, needed to run Wicket > > aplication just \\\"out of the box\\\". it is a little bit boring to find > > out that I also need to download slf4j and velocity. I uderstand that this > > info is writen on your page but I would expect just download one tar (zip) > > unpackit to my classpath write demo and run it. > > > Contrary to lib where one would expect them they are included in example`s > > war. > > We give you a ready-to-run WAR file which has all the dependencies for > the projects. > > If we included the JAR files in addition to this, we\'d double the size > of the download. It\'s an already-sizeable 14.8Mb for the ZIP. > > If you use Maven 2, it will manage the dependencies for you. If you > choose to manage your dependencies manually, then you will obviously > have some work to do. > > > and understand why I need org.apache.velocity packages when I do not use > > it, is simply confusing me. does Wicket from clear and nice programming go > > to something unclear and confused? > > > > And can someone point me to some link where there is explained why when I > > develop simple HelloWorld application I need also org.apache.velocity. > > You don\'t. You need that for things that use the wicket-velocity > project. Such as wicket-examples, which has example code for that. > > If you want a complete list of dependencies for each project, please > find it here: > > http://herebebeasties.com/static/wicket-dependencies.txt > > > Regards, > > Al > -- > Alastair Maw > Wicket-biased blog at http://herebebeasties.com > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ http://kultura.sme.sk/ - Informačný server o kultúre a šoubiznise - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
