Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
[EMAIL PROTECTED](Stefan Taferner) 28.05.07 14:22 Once upon a time "Stefan Taferner " shaped the electrons to say... >On Monday 28 May 2007 10:38:50 Marko Myllymaa wrote: >> On Sun, 27 May 2007, Andrew Herron wrote: >>> I have to say that I agree with both of you... constructive >>> criticism is best! >>> >>> As a quiet 'user' of vdr, for about a year, I agree with the >>> sentiments in Martin's post. It is very frustrating that vdr exits >>> when reception is less than perfect. I personally would prefer it >>> if vdr announced on screen that there was a bad signal condition. >>> This is particularly frustrating if at the time you are just >>> watching a perfectly good recording. >> >> I agree, with all. I would suggest to handle viewing recording or >> running a plugin (dvd plugin or mp3/mplayer etc.) would get a >> priority, for example 90. Then every recording that has lower >> priority would not cause emergency exits, no matter what. But if >> recording has higher priority, it can cause restarts. >Hmm... IMO it is good that vdr tries to fix the recording problem with >a restart. I think that's "historical" When VDR (and me?) were young, there were tons of problems with the driver, with firmware, with multithreading, reentrance and real hardware bugs etc. (remember: the drivers are mostly based on reverse engineerings! And the early baords tent to "hang" causd by bad Vcc filtering and desgin errors.) At that time it was the only way to reload the driver by resetting the entire box, because it was impossible to determine where the problem actually was. Today i would ask: Why can't VDR read out the signal (strength/quality) information? As long as there is a bit level, there is no reason to reboot, tho no video stream might be decodable. >If I have the choice between a corrupted recording and >being interrupted by a restart, I would choose the restart. The recording is corrupt anyway. And if you have more than one card, and record more than one transponder at the same time both(!) recordings will be broken tho only one transponders had problems... Not really an option, or? At least me would prefere to have only 1 broken recording instead of 4...i would not choose to restart. We had this thread all 12/18 month the last 5 years ;-) (Thunder storms in summer and snow in winter) Rainer ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
and again, start separating the services .. PS: sorry for the 3-times :( saw it now .. my apologies! > Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:43:33 +0200> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: > vdr@linuxtv.org> Subject: Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich> > On 05/28/07 > 16:44, Lars Bläser wrote:> > Klaus Schmidinger wrote:> >> On 05/28/07 11:30, > martin wrote:> >>> Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the > community.> >>> ...> >> [ ... lengthy pamphlet, repeated three(!) times ... > ]> >>> >> Martin, why don't you simply remove the > cThread::EmergencyExit(true)> >> calls from recorder.c and remux.c?> >>> > > > > how about a compile or start switch for this> > I'll change this in version > 1.5. This hint was just to tell> Martin how to immediately make VDR 1.4.x > work the way he apparently> expects it to.> > Klaus> > > ___> vdr mailing list> > vdr@linuxtv.org> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr _ Windows Live Messenger: Jetzt den Nachfolger vom MSN Messenger kostenlos downloaden! http://get.live.com/messenger/overview___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
because i'm speak some dialekts like basic or turbo pascal .. but not C :( and i am not the only one, who has got the problem. and i can't tell my granny to remove the cThread :)) > Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:23:04 +0200> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: > vdr@linuxtv.org> Subject: Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich> > On 05/28/07 > 11:30, martin wrote:> > Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by > the community.> > ...> > [ ... lengthy pamphlet, repeated three(!) times ... > ]> > Martin, why don't you simply remove the cThread::EmergencyExit(true)> > calls from recorder.c and remux.c?> > Klaus> > > ___> vdr mailing list> > vdr@linuxtv.org> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr _ MSN Unterhaltung: Alle TV - Highlights - Mit der MSN Programmsuche! Jetzt checken! http://tv.unterhaltung.msn.de/tv?ocid=BAN1v0___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
On 05/28/07 16:44, Lars Bläser wrote: > Klaus Schmidinger wrote: >> On 05/28/07 11:30, martin wrote: >>> Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the community. >>> ... >> [ ... lengthy pamphlet, repeated three(!) times ... ] >> >> Martin, why don't you simply remove the cThread::EmergencyExit(true) >> calls from recorder.c and remux.c? >> > > how about a compile or start switch for this I'll change this in version 1.5. This hint was just to tell Martin how to immediately make VDR 1.4.x work the way he apparently expects it to. Klaus ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
Klaus Schmidinger wrote: > On 05/28/07 11:30, martin wrote: >> Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the community. >> ... > > [ ... lengthy pamphlet, repeated three(!) times ... ] > > Martin, why don't you simply remove the cThread::EmergencyExit(true) > calls from recorder.c and remux.c? > how about a compile or start switch for this /Lars/ ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
On 05/28/07 11:30, martin wrote: > Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the community. > ... [ ... lengthy pamphlet, repeated three(!) times ... ] Martin, why don't you simply remove the cThread::EmergencyExit(true) calls from recorder.c and remux.c? Klaus ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
On Monday 28 May 2007 10:38:50 Marko Myllymaa wrote: > On Sun, 27 May 2007, Andrew Herron wrote: > > I have to say that I agree with both of you... constructive criticism is > > best! > > > > As a quiet 'user' of vdr, for about a year, I agree with the sentiments > > in Martin's post. It is very frustrating that vdr exits when reception is > > less than perfect. I personally would prefer it if vdr announced on > > screen that there was a bad signal condition. This is particularly > > frustrating if at the time you are just watching a perfectly good > > recording. > > I agree, with all. I would suggest to handle viewing recording or running > a plugin (dvd plugin or mp3/mplayer etc.) would get a priority, for > example 90. Then every recording that has lower priority would not cause > emergency exits, no matter what. But if recording has higher priority, it > can cause restarts. Hmm... IMO it is good that vdr tries to fix the recording problem with a restart. If I have the choice between a corrupted recording and being interrupted by a restart, I would choose the restart. However, it gets anoying when vdr restarts constantly. That is IMO what bothers us here. So if vdr could have some sort of restart-retry timeout, things would be better, IMO. A solution might be to create a file like .update, e.g. /video/.restart, that contains the timestamp of the vdr restart, when one happens. Could simply be a file with the time_t to make things realy simple. Vdr reads that file on its next start, seconds later, and knows that it did try a restart. So it will not try another restart for a while. Kind regards, Stefan ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the community. Yes, you are right - I can not address my thoughts without emotions. So we get into ITIL terminology. I will not do it 100% correct, as we need the application of ITIL to the current problem. Okay, here it comes. Some call it "features", some would call it "services". The VDR "suite" is providing vertical and horizontal services. Vertical Services are most of the time "end user services", whereas horizontal services are "platform services". To get into detail: Vertial: * Show a live DVB stream * Record a DVB stream * Time-Shift-View * Show a recording * .. you name it, we have it .. there's a lot more! -> When we would build up a service catalogue, we would also have to make SLA's on it. This would be the case, when a service provider (that's actually me!) is providing serivces to customers (my beloved!). And here comes the story: everybody wants to have 100% availability, that's clear. I do regular service updates with my VDR, where all services are down. This I can schedule so, that there is no interference with my end customers. Okay, all services are seen as single instances. End-Users do not understand, why recording a DVB stream is linked to showing a recording! -> Please Klaus, explain - in words that my Granny will understand! Second: There is something that's called "höhere gewalt". Examples: I want to watch TV, but there is a power outage. Nobody would blame me - personally. When I want to go across the alps with my car and it snowed 2 meters over night, nobody would blame me, that i was not able to go across. When I want to get tanned by sun and it's raining, it's simply impossible. When there is a huge cloud over my sat dish, even my 85cm is too small. I can not influence the weather. Everboy will understand! Horizontal: * The socalled API It's a platform, that is not visible to the endcustomer, but totally necessary as a good software is always open for new vertical services! The hassle with this is, that end-users do not care about the API. Modules must simply link in. Klaus had a long nightmare behind about this. So API is necessary, but also a lot of work with almost no refund. Something out scope for ITIL - Patching: And then we have the BigPatch fraction. I love those guys, they do also great job. They are not building on an API, they are modifying the source. Why are they doing this - should some of you ask yourself? Answer for me is simple: I did also do a feature request, something that was already developed, Klaus only needed to include in his source. But people started discussing, that we don't need. -> If we don't need, why is there a BigPatch. So no new feature (again a vertical service), which is frustrating. -> ".. inaction is a weapon of mass destruction." If you like musik, check your mp3 library for: http://www.lyricstop.com/m/massdestruction-faithless.html So: what would be the next steps: it's clear, VDR is not able (willing or what ever, again I don't care) to split up the services, so i must find workarrounds. Make many instances of VDR running on my machine. One is doing recording, one EPG search, the other is providing "Show" Sevice. -> do I really have to do this? And how to do it? Next would be that i have to split up physically into seperate boxes .. *puh* Finally - Business Economics: Talking about the "Cost of Service" and the "Total Cost of Ownership". When I split up VDR instances, the costs increase and over the lifetime the costs get multipied. Do I take Windows or Linux -> it's just a cost fact: Linux costs me, in my environment less. Do I buy a DVB-Recorder or do I build up (custom made). Also simple: I need to compare the service catalogue. All commercial services do not offer me "noad", "vdradmin", "epgsearch", "femon". This is the reason for me to use VDR. So: I use a lot of the API, I use BigPatch to get the 10 seconds jumps. This is what make VDR unique and worth using it. But writing such a long mail is frustrating :( Martin Thanks all for your replys! At least I feel heard by the community. Yes, you are right - I can not address my thoughts without emotions. So we get into ITIL terminology. I will not do it 100% correct, as we need the application of ITIL to the current problem. Okay, here it comes. Some call it "features", some would call it "services". The VDR "suite" is providing vertical and horizontal services. Vertical Services are most of the time "end user services", whereas horizontal services are "platform services". To get into detail: Vertial: * Show a live DVB stream * Record a DVB stream * Time-Shift-View * Show a recording * .. you name it, we have it .. there's a lot more! -> When we would build up a service catalogue, we would also have to make SLA's on it. This would be the case, when a service provider (that's actually me!) is providing serivces to customers (my beloved!). And here comes the story: everybody wants to have 100% availabil
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
On Sun, 27 May 2007, Andrew Herron wrote: > I have to say that I agree with both of you... constructive criticism is > best! > > As a quiet 'user' of vdr, for about a year, I agree with the sentiments in > Martin's post. It is very frustrating that vdr exits when reception is less > than perfect. I personally would prefer it if vdr announced on screen that > there was a bad signal condition. This is particularly frustrating if at the > time you are just watching a perfectly good recording. I agree, with all. I would suggest to handle viewing recording or running a plugin (dvd plugin or mp3/mplayer etc.) would get a priority, for example 90. Then every recording that has lower priority would not cause emergency exits, no matter what. But if recording has higher priority, it can cause restarts. That's my suggestion. This is not that big problem for me, but lately I've got couple strange emergency exits. First live view looks ok and vdr was recording a show or was just starting. I started to watched old recorded show, after a while vdr restarts. Log shows just that emergency exit was initiated. Okay, my system does that only once, after that the recorded show can be watched ok. Marko Myllymaa ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
I have to say that I agree with both of you... constructive criticism is best! As a quiet 'user' of vdr, for about a year, I agree with the sentiments in Martin's post. It is very frustrating that vdr exits when reception is less than perfect. I personally would prefer it if vdr announced on screen that there was a bad signal condition. This is particularly frustrating if at the time you are just watching a perfectly good recording. So my vote would be for more benign handling of these situations so that I dont' get asked why 'it did that' all the time :-) Thanks again for such a great piece of software. We are just 'nit picking' really of course! Regards Andrew On 5/27/07, Steffen Barszus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martin schrieb: > Dear Klaus, > > I pay you respect, as you do a great job. You do a lot of work - for > free - for the community! So, don't missunderstand me: I really do not > intend to blame you personally! > > But when it comes to the "Service" thinking of a VDR, things get > difficult. VDR is a Service - nothing more, nothing less (SOA thinking). > > The question "was there a recording" is neglibible. I don't care if > there is a recording going on, when I want to watch a film. The main > job of VDR at the time of watching a recording is to display the film. > Who cares if the current _BACKGROUND_ recording is disturbed, it's a > _FACT_ and i _CAN'T_ change anything at this time. But it drives me > and my beloved mad, that we have a shutdown-show-shutdown-show (okay, > don't want to do a cut'n'paste show here, but it was 10 maybe 15, 20 > times!). > > Make a switch and everything is fine. With your emergency exit you > fixed problems, that are actually not yours! If the DVB drivers are > buggy, try to push the responsibility to those, who _MUST_ take care > of the problem. For me, I have Technotrend budget cards which never > have a DVB driver problem, it makes make blood rush. I would suggest you to calm down a littlebit. Your language is unapproriate i think - your point is easy - don't care about receiption problems - don't interrupt user (inter)action. My questions: Isn't it enough to not use -w parameter ? If not, i'm sure somebody has allready a patch to fix this ? With the drivers getting very mature even for my TT Premium - Skystar2 setup, i agree that first point should not be anymore to assume the drivers failing. But that is all for development tree of vdr not for current stable. To get a proper dscussion, we need to list in which situation vdr is doing what, and how vdr should react. Steffen ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
Martin schrieb: Dear Klaus, I pay you respect, as you do a great job. You do a lot of work - for free - for the community! So, don't missunderstand me: I really do not intend to blame you personally! But when it comes to the "Service" thinking of a VDR, things get difficult. VDR is a Service - nothing more, nothing less (SOA thinking). The question "was there a recording" is neglibible. I don't care if there is a recording going on, when I want to watch a film. The main job of VDR at the time of watching a recording is to display the film. Who cares if the current _BACKGROUND_ recording is disturbed, it's a _FACT_ and i _CAN'T_ change anything at this time. But it drives me and my beloved mad, that we have a shutdown-show-shutdown-show (okay, don't want to do a cut'n'paste show here, but it was 10 maybe 15, 20 times!). Make a switch and everything is fine. With your emergency exit you fixed problems, that are actually not yours! If the DVB drivers are buggy, try to push the responsibility to those, who _MUST_ take care of the problem. For me, I have Technotrend budget cards which never have a DVB driver problem, it makes make blood rush. I would suggest you to calm down a littlebit. Your language is unapproriate i think - your point is easy - don't care about receiption problems - don't interrupt user (inter)action. My questions: Isn't it enough to not use -w parameter ? If not, i'm sure somebody has allready a patch to fix this ? With the drivers getting very mature even for my TT Premium - Skystar2 setup, i agree that first point should not be anymore to assume the drivers failing. But that is all for development tree of vdr not for current stable. To get a proper dscussion, we need to list in which situation vdr is doing what, and how vdr should react. Steffen ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
RE: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
Dear Klaus, I pay you respect, as you do a great job. You do a lot of work - for free - for the community! So, don't missunderstand me: I really do not intend to blame you personally! But when it comes to the "Service" thinking of a VDR, things get difficult. VDR is a Service - nothing more, nothing less (SOA thinking). The question "was there a recording" is neglibible. I don't care if there is a recording going on, when I want to watch a film. The main job of VDR at the time of watching a recording is to display the film. Who cares if the current _BACKGROUND_ recording is disturbed, it's a _FACT_ and i _CAN'T_ change anything at this time. But it drives me and my beloved mad, that we have a shutdown-show-shutdown-show (okay, don't want to do a cut'n'paste show here, but it was 10 maybe 15, 20 times!). Make a switch and everything is fine. With your emergency exit you fixed problems, that are actually not yours! If the DVB drivers are buggy, try to push the responsibility to those, who _MUST_ take care of the problem. For me, I have Technotrend budget cards which never have a DVB driver problem, it makes make blood rush. So long and schönes Pfingstsonntag, Martin > Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:19:34 +0200> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: > vdr@linuxtv.org> Subject: Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich> > On 05/26/07 > 18:24, Martin wrote:> > Who is interested in the weather in Munich? Probably > nobody, mine either> > as I was sitting indor to watch my favourite TV > shows.> > > > Then suddenly a nice "emergency exit" .. i had this game for 15 > Minutes ..> > > > I do not tell you how lucky I am that the thunderstorm is > over now ..> > > > Thanks for letting me know, that vdr needs to exit, when > there is a> > thunderstorm, while i am watching ...> > Was there recording > going on at that time?> > Klaus> > > ___> vdr mailing list> > vdr@linuxtv.org> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr _ Windows Live Messenger: Jetzt den Nachfolger vom MSN Messenger kostenlos downloaden! http://get.live.com/messenger/overview___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Re: [vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
On 05/26/07 18:24, Martin wrote: > Who is interested in the weather in Munich? Probably nobody, mine either > as I was sitting indor to watch my favourite TV shows. > > Then suddenly a nice "emergency exit" .. i had this game for 15 Minutes .. > > I do not tell you how lucky I am that the thunderstorm is over now .. > > Thanks for letting me know, that vdr needs to exit, when there is a > thunderstorm, while i am watching ... Was there recording going on at that time? Klaus ___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
[vdr] Thunderstorm over Munich
Who is interested in the weather in Munich? Probably nobody, mine either as I was sitting indor to watch my favourite TV shows.Then suddenly a nice "emergency exit" .. i had this game for 15 Minutes .. I do not tell you how lucky I am that the thunderstorm is over now ..Thanks for letting me know, that vdr needs to exit, when there is a thunderstorm, while i am watching ...Have a nice day,Martin _ Windows Live Messenger: Jetzt den Nachfolger vom MSN Messenger kostenlos downloaden! http://get.live.com/messenger/overview___ vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
