[VIHUELA] Re: early music in the 19th century
On 03/05/2012 11:51, David van Ooijen wrote: Napoleon Coste was interested in music by Robert de Visee. See four of his arrangements here: [1]http://youtu.be/Ypx1_5daSpQ David Very elegant performance and playing. And it's great to hear you (and Rob on ning) playing early 19th century guitar music. (And you both have posh sound set-ups?) Stuart -- References 1. http://youtu.be/Ypx1_5daSpQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 and now a Lilt
On 28/03/2012 18:16, wayne cripps wrote: Actually I should qualify that by saying that I *believe* it is all by Mesangeau, and I believe that it is in his hand, not in a student's hand. One clue is the squiggle at the end of each piece - it is a stylized M. I don't have my references with me here, but probably the CNRS volume would tell you more. Wayne But Rob arranged another lute piece for five-course guitar - which he notes is also from Panmure 5: Lady Lothian's Lilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS47U9fGfjA Now that can't be Mesangeau... Monica pointed out a courante by Mesangeau buried somewhere in Foscarini. So Rob's arrangement of this untitled Panmure 5 (French - not Scottish-French?) courante has an important precedent. This Panmure 5 courante and the Mesangeau courante in Foscarini sound more like correntes than courantes to me. I used to have a Baroque lute and struggled many's the time through entirely tuneless French courantes. Stuart Begin forwarded message: From: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop Date: March 28, 2012 12:56:17 PM EDT To: wayne crippsw...@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu That's very interesting. Is all the music by Mesangeau? - Original Message - From: wayne crippsw...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop The Panmure 5 manuscript is in a Scottish collection, but it was bought in France. It is the work of Rene Mesangeau, most likely written down by a student. In the flat and sharp tunings. Wayne On Mar 28, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Monica Hall wrote: That's the source Rob and Stuart got the piece from. It seems it is definitely Scottish. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Martine...@gamutstrings.com To: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Edward Martine...@gamutstrings.com Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop I think it was Panmure 5. ed At 06:24 AM 3/28/2012, Monica Hall wrote: I wonder what Jakob's source was. The version for guitarre theorbee is much simplified - in spite of it having 5 courses plus 7 diapasons! Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Martine...@gamutstrings.com To: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop Hi Monica, The Courante in question is a tune that was played on Jakob Lindberg's old LP of Scottish pieces, recorded in the 80's. It is a most lovely piece, for 10 course lute, in transitional tuning. At 04:42 PM 3/27/2012, Monica Hall wrote: It's very nice attempt. This is one of the pieces on Rob's CD. When I first heard it it sounded so familiar I am sure that I have come across it in another baroque guitar source. I wonder if anyone else recognises it. Monica Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] A courante from Panmure 5 arranged for Baroque guitar by Rob MacKillop
Rob arranged some Scottish lute pieces for Baroque guitar a while ago. Here's a go at an untitled piece, a courante, from Panmure 5. Guitar made by Bill Samson. The burn is running into Loch Garry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIT9JJq_uvk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Mazurka by A. Sychra for seven-course guitar (1820s)
Here is an attempt at a mazurka by A. Sychra (who is supposed to have invented the instrument - i.e. the seven strings and the G tuning). Alexander Batov has kindly translated the title for me: You'd rather be ready to dance and merry and found the original text/lyrics. It's about a kozak (cossack) returning form the Battle of Poltava. And he's calling Marusya to meet him. I'm not strong on British history let alone the history of this neck of the woods. An extremely cursory glance at Internet sources suggests the Russians won, the Swedes lost and teh Ukrainians lost hope hope of independence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCDyfhJVyc Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
On 29/02/2012 13:32, Monica Hall wrote: - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar On 29/02/2012 12:47, Monica Hall wrote: - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance') - on a mid 19th century Russian guitar. The arranger is N. Alexandrov and the title is 'Heart' and the composer is A.L. Guriljev. Many thanks to Alexander Batov for the the translations, the link to information on Guriljev and a link to a modern performance of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YN_zXi-hg The strings on Russian guitars (and still on modern, factory made guitars) are very close together! Do Russians have especially small hands? Stuart Quite pleasant to listen to but it sound just like the dreaded classical guitar. Excuse my ignorance but in what way are Russian guitars different from ordinary ones? I think that that small 19th century guitars sound quite a bit different from big modern classical guitars (and especially when the 19th century instruments are gut-string and played without nails). Russian guitars have seven-strings and are tuned to a G major chord (a bit like the Foscarini scordatura pieces!). There is an extensive repertoire in a range of keys using fancy techniques like campanella. Hardly any of it can be described as technically easy. Very interesting...what does it look like? Is it guitar shaped? Monica Yes, the typical Russian guitar looks like a typical 19th century guitar - but with seven strings. The neck is detachable (and still is on modern factory made instruments) but detachable necks are not unique to Russian guitars. Oleg Timofeyev is the modern champion of the the 19th century Russian guitar. I don't know how far it will ever catch on though. You have to learn to read music in G tuning and the music is often - usually - technically very demanding. Modern Russian guitar seems just like modern classical guitar: big, loud, fast... plus a ton of gypsy kitschery. Stuart Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
On 29/02/2012 16:44, Monica Hall wrote: Quite pleasant to listen to but it sound just like the dreaded classical guitar. Excuse my ignorance but in what way are Russian guitars different from ordinary ones? I think that that small 19th century guitars sound quite a bit different from big modern classical guitars (and especially when the 19th century instruments are gut-string and played without nails). Russian guitars have seven-strings and are tuned to a G major chord (a bit like the Foscarini scordatura pieces!). There is an extensive repertoire in a range of keys using fancy techniques like campanella. Hardly any of it can be described as technically easy. Very interesting...what does it look like? Is it guitar shaped? Monica Yes, the typical Russian guitar looks like a typical 19th century guitar - but with seven strings. The neck is detachable (and still is on modern factory made instruments) but detachable necks are not unique to Russian guitars. Well - how do you detach the neck - with the strings attached? Do you mean it kind of folds away? Eugene explains more in his reply. If you take the strings off you can unscrew the neck and take it off. Oleg says that's how he used to travel with the instrument and when he sold a guitar to me it came with neck detached. When you attach the neck and put the strings on you don't fully tighten the neck. It's the tension of the strings that holds the neck tight! In fact the neck is, as it were, wobblable - you can pull it back a bit. The underneath of the fingerboard hovers over the soundboard. (And modern factory made instruments are made this way too.) How did such a monstrosity come in to being in the middle of the 18th century when we miserable Europeans were still making do with five courses? There is no record of it before the 1790s - and (I'm fairly sure) the late 1790s. They aren't monstrosities, they're rather pretty little things. Oleg Timofeyev is the modern champion of the the 19th century Russian guitar. I don't know how far it will ever catch on though. You have to learn to read music in G tuning and the music is often - usually - technically very demanding. A good case for using tablature. They didn't use tablature but they did devise a way of indicating which finger/string/fret to use in complicated passages. Modern Russian guitar seems just like modern classical guitar: big, loud, fast... plus a ton of gypsy kitschery. Not sure that it's really my thing. Five courses good, six strings bad, seven strings worse and then there are the open diapasons. Did they have them in the 18th century as well. Most of the pictures of Oleg Timofeyev are of him with his Russian guitar with extra basses. Such instruments are from the 19th century not the 18th. Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Adjustable 19th-century guitar necks [was: Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar]
On 29/02/2012 18:26, Braig, Eugene wrote: Again, sorry for MS Outlook's default reply. (if I reply at the bottom, Outlook does not insert extra-s, so my reply would become indistinguishable from the last note without manual insertions at each line. I so miss Eudora.) The detachable-neck thing largely came of Austrian/Germanic guitars in the early 1820s and is sometimes attributed to the virtuoso Legnani's (1790-1877) commissions from the Staufer/Stauffer shop in Vienna. Such guitars (at least the 6-string, mainstream European varieties) are even often referred to as Legnani model, and some of them from the Stauffer shop are so labeled. The style was even carried to early production of classical guitars in the US via C.F. Martin's shop (a protégé of Stauffer) starting in 1833. As much as anything, the clock-key mechanism installed in the heel of such guitars is to allow easy adjustments to action/neck angle without needing to perform minor surgery to the bridge or major surgery to the head block. The fact that the neck is also thus removable is convenient byproduct (e.g., I've never seen a travel case built to accommodate such a guitar with neck detached, and I've seen a lot of such guitars in cases). You wouldn't pop the neck off when under tension or fully strung. Coincidence and unrelated to the adjustable neck, but many such guitars also had a scroll-in-profile headstock with all tuners arrayed along one side. You can see one of my own such pieces here: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/photo/photo/search?q=placht (this a guitar by the Placht Brothers--Gebrüder Placht--of Pest before the city's unification into Budapest). Here is a piece by Glaesel of Markneukirchen (currently owned by a friend of mine) with a more universal-type peghead of the time, but with the adjustable neck and clock-key port in the heel visible from a couple angles: http://www.demosguitars.com/index.php/Guitars/vintage/karl_august_glaesel/. You can see a slew of such things here: http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/builders.htm#Staufer (all this paragraph's links to the more mainstream European, 6-string variety). Regarding the history of the 7-string guitar in Russia, here is a brief excerpt from Timofeyev's site (previously linked) regarding his dissertation (note that Oleg label's the early half of the 19th-c. as the Golden Era for this repertoire): Dr. Oleg Timofeyev: Dissertation abstract The Golden Age of the Russian Guitar: Repertoire, Performance Practice, and Social Function of the Russian Seven-String Guitar Music, 1800-1850, PhD diss., Duke U., 1999. 584 p. Order from UMI: UMI AAI9928880 Abstract: This dissertation is the first scholarly attempt in any language to address the all-but-forgotten Russian seven-string guitar tradition. The most distinctive feature of this instrument is its open-chord tuning (D G B d g b d'). In chapter one, a number of organological links are discussed that shed light on the origin of the instrument, arguing that the Russian guitar was the result of a cross-fertilization between the Spanish guitar and the 18th-century cittern. Numerous examples from literature, personal diaries, and visual arts collected in chapter two document the important role this guitar played for the Russian noble and middle class during the first half of the nineteenth century. Chapter three presents in detail the lives and works of the three guitarists-composers who founded the unique musical style for the instrument: Andrei Sychra, Semion Aksionov, and Mikhail Vysotsky. The variety of ways in which Russian folk songs were incorporated into their wor! ks presents the special focus of chapter four, since it is precisely this inclusion of folk material that gives the repertoire its particularly Russian sound. Finally, in chapter five the musical climate among the guitarists of the 1840s (Morkov, Liakhov, Sarenko, Vetrov, Zimmerman) is discussed, with emphasis on their connection to the works of the previous generation. A translation of the entire text of Mikhail Stakhovich's 1854 Essay on the History of the Seven-String Guitar is appended, since this text is a unique testimony of an active participant and first historian of the tradition. On the accompanying CD, twenty short compositions from this tradition are recorded. ...And I don't believe I've remembered to say so yet, but thanks for sharing another lovely performance, Stuart. Thanks. And can I say that Oleg Timofeyev's PhD is a very interesting read. You'd never guess it was a boring old PhD thesis! Stuart Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:44 AM To: Stuart Walsh Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance
[VIHUELA] 19th century Russian 'romance' for 7-string guitar
Here is an attempt at a mid 19th century Russian guitar arrangement of a song (a 'romance') - on a mid 19th century Russian guitar. The arranger is N. Alexandrov and the title is 'Heart' and the composer is A.L. Guriljev. Many thanks to Alexander Batov for the the translations, the link to information on Guriljev and a link to a modern performance of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YN_zXi-hg The strings on Russian guitars (and still on modern, factory made guitars) are very close together! Do Russians have especially small hands? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
On 10/01/2012 17:41, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Very nice... I would love to see this ms some day. Your little guitar sounds very nice. As for tuning the mandore, I believe the Chancy ms has three different tunings. His ms seems to be for a plectrum -- well, I was taught that he marks up and down strokes, so that would indicate. He doesn't give absolute pitches, he just tunes to the frets. But the tunings are (from memory): --h D --a--f- A -a--f-- D a-- G --h D --a--f- A -a--h-- D a-- A --h D --a--f- A -a--e-- D a-- F# The last one is pretty interesting, for the second suite. But I haven't managed to pull the whole suite together yet. Drat... I hope I haven't stuck my foot into it -- I need to pull the ms out of storage and verify that these really are the tunings he has. Between work and the guitar, I'm afraid my poor mandore has languished. As have my powers of memory. cud _ Thank Chris. There are three entries in the Cornetto catalogue for mandore, and I think they are all MSS from Ulm. I just got number 35 and it came as two separate little books: one with a small number of pieces for a four-course instrument - which could be played with a plectrum. Like the Chancy pieces, which you play, it takes a skilful player to play them. It's not single line stuff. And the larger book (with over 120 pieces) is for a five-course instrument and needs some kind of fingerstyle approach (maybe fingers alone, maybe fingers and plectrum etc) I'm sure you are right, there are three tunings - (the difference only in the first course), e.g. in Chancy and in Gallot. In the book I've got from Ulm for five-course, there are just two tunings. Only a very few have the first course down a tone. (and as Rob pointed out, there is a section in the Skene MS for a tuning like the top five courses of a Renaissance lute) Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
On 08/01/2012 12:48, Monica Hall wrote: The Scottish, Skene mandore MS is more well known but the Ulm MS of French mandore music (of the same time) is very good too. And the pieces are much more carefully notated. Here are a couple of courantes and a gavotte - played on a very small guitar with a string length of 37 cms. Perhaps there were at least two sizes of mandore: the really tiny (c. 30cm string length), four-course mandore (some Ulm stuff, Chancy) , played with a plectrum and a slightly larger, five course instrument ((Skene, Ulm, Gallot) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnC0b9w8QyU Stuart Very nice but what is mandore tuning in this context? Thanks. I don't know what you mean 'context'? I think the tuning of the mandore at the time of its popularity was more or less fixed... apart from the first course. So a four-course mandore was 5-4-5 (e.g.: g-d-g-d) and a five-course instrument was 4-5-4-5 (e.g.: d-g-d-g-d). Of course the actual pitch might be different. But on either four- or five-course instruments the top course could be re-tuned: e.g. a tone lower. But the bottom courses were not re-tuned. So the mandore tuning is quite different from the mandolino tuning in fourths (but not that that difference makes it a different instrument). Stuart Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
The Scottish, Skene mandore MS is more well known but the Ulm MS of French mandore music (of the same time) is very good too. And the pieces are much more carefully notated. Here are a couple of courantes and a gavotte - played on a very small guitar with a string length of 37 cms. Perhaps there were at least two sizes of mandore: the really tiny (c. 30cm string length), four-course mandore (some Ulm stuff, Chancy) , played with a plectrum and a slightly larger, five course instrument ((Skene, Ulm, Gallot) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnC0b9w8QyU Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Taro Takeuchi videos
On 22/12/2011 08:07, David van Ooijen wrote: Both videos removed by user. What a pity, I would have loved to see Taro so his strumming. David Evidently they were drafts. These link should work. Corbetta Geminiani (!) Ferr[n]andiere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWsIH_HyQc 'English guitar' Handel Straube and reel on pianoforte-guitar! http://www.youtube.com/user/TakeuchiTaro?feature=watch#p/u/0/N4HxtTR49Js Stuart Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydUfeature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Taro Takeuchi videos
On 22/12/2011 10:32, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 22/12/2011 08:07, David van Ooijen wrote: Both videos removed by user. What a pity, I would have loved to see Taro so his strumming. David Evidently they were drafts. These link should work. Corbetta __SORRY, improvisation not Corbetta Geminiani (!) Ferr[n]andiere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWsIH_HyQc 'English guitar' Handel Straube and reel on pianoforte-guitar! http://www.youtube.com/user/TakeuchiTaro?feature=watch#p/u/0/N4HxtTR49Js Stuart Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydUfeature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Taro Takeuchi videos
Taro has put up some videos, playing guitar and 18th century cittern. The first video has extracts of music played on three different guitars - some Corbetta, something from the second half of the18th century and something (I think) from the early 19th century. Taro has developed a striking way of strumming. He says it has nothing to do with flamenco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0iO5p0ydUfeature=related And some 'English guitar' pieces. The last one is played on a 'pianoforte guitar', Possibly he's the first to revive this in modern times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xhQdslzH8 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
On 12/12/2011 17:24, Monica Hall wrote:
Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
things which I think need to be clarified.
The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
instrument is referred to as
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
Chitarra as a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano.
He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
Italiana was a small lute.
Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and
the chitarra napolitana.
Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded
by the note Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma
sono veramente per la Chitarra. Although Meucci doesn't mention this
instance it seems to me that the Chitarra here is also a small
lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
You can't assume that the term chitarra refers to the 5-course
guitar.
As ever
Monica
Very interesting, Monica. Is Meucci's article readily available anywhere? More
to the point, is it in in English? And better still is there a good summary of
the key points somewhere!!
You say
il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana which suggests that it was a
small lute rather than a 4-course guitar.
I've heard some sceptical mutterings over the years about the Chitarra
Italiana. But now it simply sounds like an Italian version of the mandore
which is some kind of survival of the medieval gittern/quintern... small,
lute-shaped. The mandore became popular in France in the 1580s and the Skene
and Ulm MSS from the 1620s have hundreds of pieces. Donald Gill thought that
the five-course mandore would probably have been a bit bigger than the really
tiny four-course instruments. The tuning of the mandore typically is 5-4-5 (but
the top string could be lowered in some tunings) and this tuning is not at all
like a guitar. The Skene MS does have a section with the mandore tuned like a
lute, though.
So: is the 'chitarra Italiana really just a mandore? (small or smallish,
lute-shaped, even,perhaps, carved from the solid in some instances? But with more of
a sickle pegbox than a lute pegbox).
But then there is the angle which seems to have tickled Roman T: that the
chitarra Italiana is not from lute/gittern lineage at all. I've only read tiny
pieces pieces about the Meucci article but the suggestion seems to be a
non-Moorish origin? Or, was Ralf hinting that 'humanist' writers in Italy,
writing fancifully, (does Meucci chart all of this?)fancied the origin of the
little lute in ancient Greek depictions of the 'pandurina'?
Stuart
Original Message -
From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
Neapolitan
publication).
The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
according to
Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as lo Strumento della
Chitarra a
sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana. It is a 4-course
instrument
with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
che in
esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del
Liuto.
He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
describing
was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for
in the
Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was
probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had
to be
imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in
common
use in northern Italy.
Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the Lauten and
Quintern;
the quintern is a small lute.
Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course
instrument
are also probably for a Chitarrina alla Napoletana - they are
notated in
Spanish tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
called
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [Chitarra Italiana/o]
On 11/12/2011 16:17, R. Mattes wrote: Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. Seems a good time to bring up the Chitarra Italiana.(Italiano) According to Schlegel and Luedtke, the term Chitarra does not mean the 8-shaped guitar but the Kithara, the plucked string instrument of ancient Greece. In the Renaissance its name was applied to a lute instrument. There were small Chitarini and the large Chitarone. To avoid confusion, the Italians right until the middle of the 17th century called the guitar, Chitarra Spagnuola. In their book, 'The Lute in Europe 2', they have a picture of an odd-looking 9-peg, five-course Chitarra Italiana. It has a lute body but the pegbox is more like that of a mandore or gittern. And here's the brief wiki entry: Chitarra Italiana is a lute-shaped plucked instrument with 4 or 5 single (sometimes double) strings, in a tuning similar to that of guitar. It was common in Italy during the Renaissance Era. It is believed to have descended from Panduras, the Mediterranean lutes of Antiquity, and to be related to north African Quitra (or Kitra). Its bass variety was known as Chitaronne. . I think this is all coming from the work of an Italian musicologist (whose name I can't remember nor find) who wrote on this topic in the 1990s. Possibly Monica once suggested that the well-known Calvi publication was for this instrument (and not a five-course guitar) It's strange that an awareness of this instrument only emerged in the 1990s. I don't think Tyler ever mentioned it. I've never come across any references to it other than the work of this Italian musicologist (and now Schlegel and Luedtke). I thought all the variations of chitarra, gittern, guitar etc have some ultimate roots in some actual or imagined Greek instrument It's not just a hypothesis working backwards from the actual existence of the chitarrone, is it? Stuart But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [1]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo -399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 18:39, Roman Turovsky wrote: Ancient Greek lute, ancestor of Balkan tamburas. RT - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? I think the piece loses its hypnotic character somewhat. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? They are notated in 3, but I don't think I can play them in 3. It's fun just playing the final four bars of the Capona Espagnola - presumably as 2/4. It's interesting too, that these aren't strummed; one might have thought that something a bit licentious would go towards strumming rather than 'lute style' I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Stuart -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 08/12/2011 23:58, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy How interesting. Any idea what: of very bad circumstances might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs? Stuart El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Stuart (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 22:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the dark corner of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? The eroticised other, indeed. Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
[VIHUELA] Capona?
Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Gloomy day, nice sunset, 17th century minimalism, Playford tune
The piece 'Bobel' is in Princess Anne's 'lute' book and I think it was Jocelyn Nelson who identified it as the tune Christchurch Bells, familiar from Playford. Monica transcribed and edited the Playford tunes in Princess Anne's book and they are downloadable from her ning early guitar site. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall This tune is -or exists also as - a round. So might the guitar version have been played as a round? A guitar part with lots of little ornaments and strums is a lot different from a single line. Here's a shot at it. It sounds a bit ragged - but that's probably just me. Nice sunset, though. The rest of the countryside looked dull and dank. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tom6ZYbhqSc Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] strumming along with Gervaise
How would a strummer strum chords to these tunes composed (arranged?) by Gervaise in the 1550s? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Gervaise/ They are strong melodies (Poulenc arranged some Gervaise dances for piano - but not these particular tunes). Maybe you just strum a chord according to the bass line. It's easy enough to work out what each chord would be. But playing at speed it would be formidably difficult to actually play them unless you were a Freddy Green-type professional. These Gervaise arrangements are in four parts and, as it stands, the bass is very easy to play as a single note. But really not so easy at all when the chords are changing very quickly. But it's often said that strummers strummed in these, and even earlier, times. And, if so, surely they would have strummed to accompany tunes like this. Would they have strummed a chord for each note as dictated by the rules of four part harmony? Or something simpler - but potentially more rhythmic? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Podoljanochka - on guitar
Here is one of Roman's recent lute arrangements of Ukrainian folk melodies: http://www.torban.org/balli/ which, I think, sounds well on a Baroque guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022QUw5Xz7Y Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] vihuela list
test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
to modern robust flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier players (at least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his strum is, of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in his 1671 collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract 'Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke' (I hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation). That an experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of strumming may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to adhere always to the earlier instructions. Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly 'trillo') as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this term is that it is a strum ornament executed by the index alone not by two fingers or more. Yrs in exectation of a response or two Martyn --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 20:19 Hi Stuart... Thanks The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill. Basically, it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is up and D is down, then the gesture is: Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I use the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for nearly every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it any other way. __ From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1][1][4]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. [2][5]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. [8]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 5. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 8. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Another thing that bothers me in general is the way in which the sound in many recordings seems to be amplified. Even turning the volume down doesn't in any way soften the music - it just makes it sound indistinct and further away. The Foscarini CD e.g. sounded like heavy metal whereas in a live performance even with the odd line up it wouldn't sound like that. Surely it is possible to capture the sound of a live performance more faithfully. I could go on for ever Who couldn't?...are there entry qualifications? - but most of these matters are too complex to discuss intelligently in a hurry and on a list like this. Phooey! And this message when I received it was a complete mess. I have tried to tidy it up. I do think at least we should agree whether we will reply at the end or the beginning and everyone do the same things. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
It's probably old news but I've just noticed that the B minor Alemanda on p.10 of Granata's Novi Capricci (guitar part alongside parts for 'violin e viola'= figured bass) is also on p.43 but this time in a fancier version and here, unquestionably, a solo. Maybe some other pieces at the beginning of the book (with violin and figured bass) also have fancier versions. The solos starting with the Toccata on p.30 seem a lot more difficult than the guitar pieces/guitar parts with the violin and bass. The late James Tyler made a nice recording of the Toccata and an Alemanda decades ago. I find the solos from p.30 onwards really challenging (apart from a couple of exceptions). But they do look like fully contrived guitar pieces whereas the earlier, simpler ones with guitar and bass don't. Anyway, if Granata has given us a crafted B minor solo on p.43, maybe the simpler version on p.10 really is meant to be played in concert, not a solo? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
Eduard Agullo very kindly sent me some of his continuo realisations of these Granata pieces with figured bass. I hope he doesn't mind if I use one as the basis of a simple lute part for one of the Alemandas. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJRV33Wi96Y The piece sounds very different in this context as compared to its solo version. Better, I think than the solo. Eduard made a slight change to make the bass part and the guitar part fit with each other. Other pieces would take a bit more work. But I'm sure players of the time could have sorted out a few things if they wanted to play these pieces with guitar and continuo. (Or indeed, guitar, violin and continuo). Granata's writing is peppered with T signs for ornaments and slurs. I hadn't realised how slurs can sound a bit dragging! I've always been respectful of tablatures but in this case I don't feel any compunction at all to re-finger passages, miss bits out...like too many slurs! etc. Monica says that these pieces may be by Corbetta. But these 'Granata' pieces seem (potentially, anyway) really tuneful and pleasant (Just joking..) Eduard tells me that Massimo Ponardi has recorded a CD with Baroque guitar and 'tiorba'. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJRV33Wi96Y To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page (violino e viola), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order. It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b, then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#, d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave for the a and g. Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often insisted upon!) Stuart In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] a little Granata experiment
Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a bit OT: George Rush Sonata for 'Guittar with an accompanyment'
On 06/03/2011 23:21, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hi Stuart, I enjoyed this (what I could; my internet's a little slow tonight); thanks for posting. Grove online has Rush as a guitarist and listed in the works section are several works for gui which I take to mean as an abbreviation for guitar. Also Elegant Extracts for Guitar. Ronald R. Kidd wrote the article. Did they mistake the guittar for the guitar? (Pretty understandable, I would say). Perhaps Rush himself spelled it as guitar? Ages ago I put up some title pages of 'English guitar' publications: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/EG/ Rush used the spelling 'guittar' but others used 'guitar'. 'Cetra', 'citra', 'chitarra' (and others too , were also used). Today, people often use the spelling 'guittar' to refer to the pear-shaped, wire-strung, chordally-tuned 18th century cittern. It's useful today , but doesn't in any way represent general practice in the 18th century. Stuart I hadn't known of Rush before this. And thanks also for acquainting me with this meaning of folly. : ) It's a beautiful scene. Best, Jocelyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] a bit OT: George Rush Sonata for 'Guittar with an accompanyment'
The cittern list seems to have withered... Here's a little sonata for the wire-strung guitar/guittar from c.1765. It's for the guittar but to be accompanied by another guittar or violin. Guittars and violins don't have a lot in common but guittar pieces (usually sonatas) with an accompaniment for either guittar or violin were quite common in Britain (and France). George Rush wrote some operas and other music as well as music for the guittar. His Three Sonatas is c.1765. This is the second: Largo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUrD8ojxf4 Allegro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENss39j-TW8 Presto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL19jxZCE0g The building is known as Cowper's Alcove, an 18th century folly where the poet William Cowper and his wife would visit. A wind farm was probably not part of the scenic view in those days. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 17:25, Monica Hall wrote: In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources) perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands held in a more strumming than a plucking position. ie right hand not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even higher up towards the neck/body join. But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing with a plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers with a separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say that this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much used so how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords? Brushing up with the thumb or down with the i or i and m (or both!). I'm not quite sure what Martin is doing on the first full chord of his latest 'new piece of the month' but it must be a combination of these. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3 Now we could be on the delightful topic of what counts as a strum... This dignified Prelude that Martin plays is not a strumfest. Stuart Monica regards Martyn --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JocelynNelson nels...@ecu.edu, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56 On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelyn[3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1][5]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelynnels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc ast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you¹re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU¹s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been strumming? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 03/03/2011 20:18, Monica Hall wrote: This subject has indeed come up on a number of occasions in the past - we seem to keep going over and over the same topics. Well that's alright with me! What you mean is that there is no actual indication in the surviving 4-course repertoire that the 4-part chords should be strummed (but there is no indication that they should be played in any other way either). The reason for this is because these books were printed using the same font of moveable type which was used for lute music - and indeed cittern music - and either the printer simply didn't have the means of indicating that chords should be strummed or didn't think it necessary. The same applies to the manuscript - there wasn't any need to indicate that the chords should be strummed. Players would know what to do. But surely this is conjecture? Is there any actual evidence that four-course guitarists strummed? How do we know that publishers/scribes didn't need to indicate a technique that we don't actually know they had? It's not possible to argue that it is simply a limitation of printing techniques of the time without reasonable evidence that strumming was the norm. Aren't we in danger of reading later practices into earlier ones? But anyway, what I was asking was how long before the mid 16th century might guitarists have been strumming sequences of major and minor chords (e.g.. to accompany singing/dancing) A reasonable question to ask, I think? Morlaye's Quatriesne Livre includes pieces for the cittern printed in exactly the same way as the guitar music - but since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must be strummed. It is difficult to play many of these pieces at speed doing anything else. Playing with a plectrum and occasionally strumming a full chord isn't strumming in the sense I was going on about. I was wondering when strumming sequences of (major and minor) chords could have evolved. There is clear evidence that chords were strummed on the lute certainly by 1536 since there are pieces in Neusidler's Ein Newgeordent kunstlich Lautenbuch where chords are marked mit durch streichen. 1536 isn't much earlier than the first guitar books. There are also pieces in Dalza which contain passages which are probably intended to be strummed - again - it would be difficult to play them in any other way. These were all included in a supplement in Lute News some time ago. Our own CG also points out that the lute (and the guitar) were originally played with a plecturm - so that originally any chords must have been strummed. But again I was talking about strumming sequences of major and minor chords not the strumming of a chord as part of a piece with melodic lines too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! As far as I can remember it was the way in which he had indicated this rather than the fact that he suggested that the chords were to be strummed. You sent a copy of the original Les Bouffons and I put up Giesbert' version: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons1.jpg Giesbert, it seems, simply assumed that four-course guitarists just must have strummed. Stuart But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. This is such an oversimplification that it is difficult to comment on it without writing a dissertation. You just can't sum things up in this way. Some of the songs in the Cancionero de Palacio are based on chord sequences like the Romanesca You must make a distinction between sacred polyphony and more popular music ...etc. Well, just popular music - and strumming. I'm just curious to know when guitarists (or indeed other pluckers could have been simply strumming sequences of major and minor chords. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But that is what Neusidler indicates. The pieces consist of block chords with the top
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 21/02/2011 09:16, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Oops... It was late last night. [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud Plenty of energy in that Chris! Sound great - and your guitar does too. Stuart __ From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
On 18/02/2011 11:52, Monica Hall wrote: Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. It's not an arch-cittern, which would typically have four pairs of wire strings at the top and descending single basses. As the article says, 'lutes' were around at the time and would mean indicate something tuned to a major chord. There were 'lutes', harp-lutes (not to be confused with later harp-lutes!), harp-lute-guitars, but now with single gut strings, not wire. Some instruments were tuned to an E flat major chord, but the music is written in C. The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? This looks exactly like a song arranged for TWO instruments - two English guitars (guittars) or equivalents And at the same pitch). The music for these later instruments with extra basses around 1800, or the music I've seen, is very simple and uses some of the simplest music originally arranged for the English guitar, now out of fashion. Stuart Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
On 08/02/2011 10:09, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
You write
'what do you mean by elaborate treble dominated style? Is it this: a
predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords? Which
composers are you thinking of?'
I don't know what others are thinking of, but I mentioned that the
similarity between much (especially Italian) guitar writing and that
for unaccompanied violin by such as Schmelzer, Biber, Matteis had
struck me some years ago. Almost all guitar composer exhibit this in
pieces from time to time but some particular ones which I recall being
examplars of the fashion were: Pellegrini(1650), Carbonchi(1640),
Pesori(1648), Coriandoli(1670), Valdambrini (1646/7), Bottazzari
(1663), Granata (various)... A good example of the practice in
operation and a interesting perspective on this style is also shed by
those few pieces which actually do have an independent bass line as
well as guitar tablature (eg Granata Op 5 of 1674 for violin, bass
violin and guitar) - the guitar 'bass' is often skeletal at best and
often non-existant whereas the guitar does double most of the
independent upper melodic line.
Well, looking at Granata's Novi Capricci Armonic Musicali: the first
few pieces have a guitar part on the left hand side (in tab) and a
score for violin and a ('viola'=bass?) part on the right. If it's
assumed that the guitar is playing along with the bass line (and
violin), nevertheless the guitar parts stand as pieces in their own
right with basic, sketchy, two-part writing (plus chords here and
there). There are passages which are just the melodic line but still
most of the writing is rudimentary two-partbut like much writing
for guitar before or since.
Stuart
Of course if anyone really wanted to push the matter and insist that a
proper through bass was always present, I suppose it might be possible
to construct a bass line (of sorts) from the lowest notes (depending on
stringing!) of the strummed chords..
Martyn
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 22:22
On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote:
This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters but I still
stand by most of it.
1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were considered
appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other was a
matter of practical convenience.
2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated style after
1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing.
Monica, what do you mean by elaborate treble dominated style? Is it
this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords?
Which composers are you thinking of?
The small amount of fancier music for the English guitar/guittar in the
18th century actually, literally looks like this - melodic lines -
single melodic lines and then occasional chords. But five-course guitar
music doesn't look like this at all. It looks like there's some kind of
bass and treble - it looks like, at least, two part music.
If the guitar is playing in this elaborate treble dominated style (as
I am interpreting you as claiming) it would have to be in a re-entrant
stringing, wouldn't it? It couldn't lead to a preference for it?
3. Perhaps as early as the 1650s Corbetta used bourdon on the
fourth course.
4. This became the preferred method of stringing in France,
England and the Low Countries and possibly also in Italy and Spain
during the last quarter of the seventeenth and first quarter of the
eighteenth centuries.
5. Developments in the way strings were made lead to regular use
of octaves on both fourth and fifth courses and eventually to a
6-course instrument.
But you say in 1. (above) - the 'conventional' tuning? So, by that, you
don't mean octaves on fourth and fifth? You mean AA and DD?
Stuart
6. Different methods of stringing were probably used for solo
music and realizing a bass line.
7. The evidence for octave stringing on the third course is
ambiguous. Such a method of stringing would only be suitable for
strummed music.
Do I hear howls of rage in the distance?
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
On 08/02/2011 10:53, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Hello Stuart,
Didn't you read me email quite through? - I specifically wrote about
Granata's Op 5! You'll see I take it as a good example of not
overbothering about a proper through bass line and thus an example of
melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example of two
part writing and this obliging us to provide a through bass on the
guitar.
And yes, the 'viola' is what many Italian sources of this period call a
bass violin (ie not a violoncello). Only later did it come to refer
exclusively to the tenor of the violin family.
rgds
M
Martyn
I did read your email! I was just (politely, of course) disagreeing with
your idea that:
You'll see I take it as a good example of not overbothering about a proper
through bass line and thus an example of
melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example of two-part
writing...
I suppose the line between melodic writing interspersed with chords
and (rudimentary) two part writing is a fine one. But just now looking
over th Granata pieces (the ones with violin/'viola') - although there
is the odd bar or two of melodic flow, I'd say 90% or so is basic
two-part (i.e.utterly typical guitar) writing.
Stuart
--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 10:47
On 08/02/2011 10:09, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
You write
'what do you mean by elaborate treble dominated style? Is it
this: a
predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords?
Which
composers are you thinking of?'
I don't know what others are thinking of, but I mentioned that the
similarity between much (especially Italian) guitar writing and that
for unaccompanied violin by such as Schmelzer, Biber, Matteis had
struck me some years ago. Almost all guitar composer exhibit this in
pieces from time to time but some particular ones which I recall
being
examplars of the fashion were: Pellegrini(1650), Carbonchi(1640),
Pesori(1648), Coriandoli(1670), Valdambrini (1646/7), Bottazzari
(1663), Granata (various)... A good example of the practice in
operation and a interesting perspective on this style is also shed
by
those few pieces which actually do have an independent bass line as
well as guitar tablature (eg Granata Op 5 of 1674 for violin, bass
violin and guitar) - the guitar 'bass' is often skeletal at best and
often non-existant whereas the guitar does double most of the
independent upper melodic line.
Well, looking at Granata's Novi Capricci Armonic Musicali: the
first
few pieces have a guitar part on the left hand side (in tab) and a
score for violin and a ('viola'=bass?) part on the right. If it's
assumed that the guitar is playing along with the bass line (and
violin), nevertheless the guitar parts stand as pieces in their own
right with basic, sketchy, two-part writing (plus chords here and
there). There are passages which are just the melodic line but
still
most of the writing is rudimentary two-partbut like much writing
for guitar before or since.
Stuart
Of course if anyone really wanted to push the matter and insist that
a
proper through bass was always present, I suppose it might be
possible
to construct a bass line (of sorts) from the lowest notes (depending
on
stringing!) of the strummed chords..
Martyn
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh [2][2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: Monica Hall [3][3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4][4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 22:22
On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote:
This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters but I
still
stand by most of it.
1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were
considered
appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other was a
matter of practical convenience.
2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated style
after
1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing.
Monica, what do you mean by elaborate treble dominated style? Is
it
this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional
chords?
Which composers are you
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the early guitar ning site. Stuart --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on
[VIHUELA] Re: Invertible counterpoint
On 06/02/2011 09:26, Monica Hall wrote: Rafael Andia on his recording of de Visee's music has the bordon on the thumb side and this doesn't seem to have an appreciable effect on the music. How interesting! I thought there was a sort of 'universal assent' (of our times) on this - the 'French tuning' for De Visee. Was there a low octave on fourth and on the fifth? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: YouTube - Marco Meloni Baroque Guitar Vol.5
On 21/01/2011 11:52, Roman Turovsky wrote: Entrada do Mrqs.Pombal by Paulo Galvão is finally on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOtqXai7HXE !!! RT A very assured performance and presentation. I tried to find out something about Marco Meloni but there are many people with that name, so I didn't (!). I tried to play some of Paulo's guitar pieces a few years ago. He writes some very attractive neo-Baroque (or pastiche?) music. This Entrada sounds like it's referencing Bach allemandes to me. He has also written some very Vivaldi-like music. But Paulo's music is not easy. I'll partly blame my rather poor guitar but I found the music too challenging. Paulo's music seemed to me as if it was written for an instrument with low basses (but I don't think I'm hearing Marco Meloni with bourdons on both?) and there were never any campanellas. But Marco Meloni gives very impressive and convincing performances of Paulo's music. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: YouTube - Marco Meloni Baroque Guitar Vol.5
On 21/01/2011 22:32, Roman Turovsky wrote: Well, on one hand there is a hierarchy of models to be emulated. And Bartlotti is a bit uneven. On the other hand Paulo had Iberian keyboard music in the back of his mind, certainly not JSB. RT It was the Allemande from a 'lute' suite in G minor (the one with the extremely long Praludium) that I kept thinking of. Stuart From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Paulo's music seemed to me as if it was written for an instrument with low basses (but I don't think I'm hearing Marco Meloni with bourdons on both?) and there were never any campanellas. Well - I am hearing the bourdons loud and clear and quite a lot of octave doubling! But Marco Meloni gives very impressive and convincing performances of Paulo's music. Yes - that is so - but it is more Bach than Bartolotti. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulosdespopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 17:39, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Very nice Chris. Chancy's music is a lot more sophisticated or more 'modern' than Skene or the Ulm mandore MS (well 133a and b). I do like the Branle de Bocan. It's in Ulm 133b as a five course fingerstyle (or prectrum +fingers) piece. (Maybe the other two Branles are in there, somewhere too). What strings do you have on your Baroque guitar. The instrument (it's fully re-entrant, isn't it?) sounds very resonant. I was bit surprised by the opening of the Jacaras? And the Sarabanda sounds very familiar but is it really a sarabanda and in Sanz? Stuart Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [6]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulosdespopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Sad news
On 25/11/2010 19:37, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, I’m very sad to report that James Tyler has passed away. I don’t know any details; I have recently corresponded with him, and yesterday morning I received this heartbreaking email from Joyce Tyler, sent from his own email address: “It is with deepest regret that I inform you of the passing of my beloved Jim.” I replied with condolences and an offer to help, and haven’t heard back from her yet so I don’t know any more than this. He wrote the standard reference for early guitar studies, The Guitar and its Music from the Renaissance to the Classical Era with co-author Paul Sparks, and Tyler also wrote the entries on four-course and five-course guitar in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians and Grove Online. His distinguished career as both an international performer and a musicologist, in fact, merits its own entry in Grove and other encyclopedias. This is a tragic loss for the early guitar and lute community, and the early music world. I know that you will want to join me in extending our deepest sympathies to Jim’s family, and that you will keep them in your thoughts during this difficult time. Jocelyn That is sad. I remember James from his early music courses at West Dean in the 1980s. And from his recordings - sometimes of music which amateurs could have actually have a hope of playing. It was his English guitar recording that got me interested in that instrument and, out of the blue, he emailed me last year when he was trying to locate Ann Ford's Instructions (for the English guitar). He said that he had retired but was very busy working on a book. I remember him at the bar at West Dean being cajoled into a demonstration of the cakewalk. After much (not wholly convincing) protestation - he did indeed do the cakewalk! Stuart Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor 506 School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 24/11/2010 12:54, Monica Hall wrote: Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice [having the low note on the thumb side] is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. Stuart On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 21/11/2010 09:45, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Even Carre has mentioned the 4th course bourdon, halfway his book. Some have taken this as an indication that he wanted French tuning for accompani ment (compare Sanz). We can't be sure. I only know the first publication of Carré. At the end of the solos there is a tuning chart in staff notation (and Monica thinks that this is lifted from Mersenne). The notes (on a treble clef with a b flat, for some reason) and all within one octave are: g,c,f,a,d. So it would seem that this is for a guitar with top string d'. Then there are continuo exercises with an instruction under the first exercise to put on octave on the fourth. But (as Monica notes in her introduction) the tuning is now for a guitar with top string e'. So already there are puzzles! Why would he want a guitar at d' for the solos and and e' for accompaniments. Was the g,c,f,a,d tuning just lifted from Mersenne? Anyway, twenty seven pages of solos ends with fully re-entrant tuning chart. And the continuo exercises clearly has an instruction to put an octave on the the fourthwhich presumably means, put on a low octave. (And, no mention at all of the which way around to put the high and low octave). In her intro to the LGV edition of Carré, Monica notes concordances with Corbetta, Bartolotti and Sanz. (Interesting) and a German MS from c.1673 You forgot Briceno... I would add the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more. He has given the re-entrant tuning in staff. In one of the Castillion manuscripts in Brussels there are some pieces of Lelio Colista, who Sanz has mentioned as a master in Rome. Presumably re-entrant tuning. Lex -- So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the text itself as fully re-entrant? 1) Briceño 2) Carré 3) Valdambrini 4) (all/most/some?) Sanz 5) the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more And more speculatively, 1) Lelio Colista Of course, players in those times might have ignored these instructions and the whole situation could have been very fluid,varying from place to place and time to time. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
On 20/11/2010 22:07, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hello early guitarists, I just received a query: “Do you know the earliest publications for lute and/or guitar in which harmonics were used?” Any thoughts? Thanks, Jocelyn According to Oleg Timofeyev: [Semion Aksionov] apparently invented the special effect in guitar playing known today as artificial harmonics which is explained in a guitar method in 1819. But natural harmonics must have predated this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carré some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Video
On 28/10/2010 21:53, Monica Hall wrote: Now for something completely different. Check this out now. Apparently dates from 1972 when we were all young and innocent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZgCpx8BN78 Monica It says 1979. So perhaps 'we' were starting to get old and jaded by then. But really a truly historical moment in Britain when the Right moved back in (and have remained, and now in full force) to put the pesky working class in its place. I was buying some bread today and the customer in front of me - a hair-dresser - was just saying how she had been 'thrown on the scrap heap' the day before. James seems completely fluent on the banjo - even more so than on the early instruments that he pioneered. And he smiled when he played (as he did). Very music hall. The medieval plucker,Crawford Young played the banjo too. And Rob is away with the banjo-ists now.. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar?
Could be Vietnamese rather than Pakistani. Last June Jelma Almersfoot gave a link to somewhere here in Britain selling these instruments but the link is now broken. I contacted the company and several phone calls and eleven emails followed. I got the impression that the company (mainly selling other instruments like recorders) just had a couple of prototype Baroque guitars (and possibly not even fully set up). The person from the company seemed extraordinarily keen for me to see the instrument - with the option of returning it: but so keen, I was reluctant to go ahead. Without going into detail, I didn't feel entirely confident about any aspect of the exchanges with the company. It would be really interesting to actually try one. If they exist beyond a few prototypes, they may be really good value...or they may not, of course. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Rondo-Andante for guitar
A short piece by the illustrious Joachim Peter Sautscheck (fl 18th century) lovingly transcribed for five-course guitar by the equally illustrious Antonio da Costa (very probably a relative of Pereyra da Costa, Mestre Da Capella da se do Funchal) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtC9xDSYGf4 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Domingo Prat's Diccionario de Guitarristas
On 16/09/2010 21:54, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hi Everyone, My music librarian is pondering whether to buy this, after receiving a gift copy of the index. I haven't worked with this, but it looks like it would be a good resource. Do others on this list have an opinion? Many thanks, Jocelyn -- Ophee does a reprint of it for a mere $300! http://www.editionsorphee.com/books/diccionario.html As I remember, it's a really important source for the history of the guitar, but it's from 1934 and I think it's more useful for 19th century guitar, than earlier. Stuart Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu ___ -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
On 07/09/2010 08:33, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Hmmm.. Well you may not read this Monica but someone might who can enlighten us as to why Foscarini in particular uses two distinct notations for IN THE SAME PIECE if they are to be played in precisely the same way! And no, you haven't really explained this since the idea that flags do not 'indicate the rhythm' satisfactorily is simply not true. Martyn This is quite a tortuous thread. I don't think we should get too cross with each other for not meticulously reading other people's messages. I've noticed in other discussions that some things I've written obviously haven't been read by some other contributors. And when I write something I often haven't meticulously read the relevant message I'm replying too. (Like now!) Martyn, are you talking about La Favorita on p.60? This: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Favorita.jpg (Surely Monica has given her response to this. She claims it's a result of an evolving notation; mature 'mixed notation' hadn't been invented yet!) Monica's interpretation of this piece - and discussion of the issues: (page 36 - bit page 55 of the pdf) http://www.tinyurls.co.uk/Z11810 Anyway, if it La Favorita, it's quite clear that it's not at all clear: no bar lines, no indication that the first chord is,or is not, the first beat of the bar etc. Monica's interpretation and transcription of this piece seems very convincing. Here's a very rough and ready go at the first section (16 bars, too!) on a very poor instrument (the single notes don't shine out at all) and an instrument with bourdons. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/STE-015.mp3 Monica has made a tremendous effort in trying to make these pieces playable. (I've been playing other instruments recently and I'd forgotten just how difficult some of these guitar chords can be. (Especially Ms)) Anyway, Martyn, I think you are saying that some of these single notes, notated with a strum (and/or rhythm sign) could or should be played along with the preceding chord. I don't know how you would do that with bar 1 (Monica's edition) but it would be easy to do at bar 6, 7 and 12. But Monica says that Foscarini expressly says not to in one his rules (mentioning La Favorita) and thereby establishing a principle. Either way, it's not gong to make a huge difference, is it? Stuart --- On Mon, 6/9/10, Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Partial strums in Foscarini (was Foscarini/Gallot) To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 6 September, 2010, 16:29 I am afraid I am not prepared to waste any more time arguing about this. If you think you know better than anyone else you can translate the Italian into English yourself. The term he uses is botte which means strokes. I have already explained why he is inconsistent in his use of note values. Corbetta also puts in note values as well as strokes. As do many of the earlier books. The reason why I lose my cool is because there are some people on this list who are unable to admit that they are ever wrong and try to impose their views regardless. What do you expect me to do? Turn round and say Oh yes - I think you are right after having given the matter a lot of thought and played much of the music. I find that patronising. I am not going to follow Lex and storm off the list but I am going to take a break. I have better things to do with my time. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Partial strums in Foscarini (was Foscarini/Gallot) Well You've given the translation before (and I presume it is 100% unequivocal in referring to the relevant slashes rather than flags in their respective places in the piece on p 60?) and whilst I noted what seems to be being said, the real problem remains that in some pieces he notates these 'single' notes in two different ways - as already mentioned in the Balletto Polacco page 19 for example. If the slash/stroke is to be applied so universally as you suggest (ie he expects this specific rule to be applied generally in all his pieces) why does he bother to show 'single' note quavers in two distinct ways in the same piece? You say that just flags alone doesn't 'indicate the rhythm' and imply that the slashes/strokes do, but it is really perfectly clear with just flags above the system - in particular compare the opening of both first
[VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
On 07/09/2010 14:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Chris, Thanks for this. I think what you mean by 'redundancy' are these stroke/slashes against single notes following a chord - in which case you do now indeed understand my position - sorry if I didn't make it clearer earlier! If the single notes are to be played alone (without any accompanying chord) then the strokes/slashes are, indeed, often redundant - as in the first full bar of La favorita (which I've also just discussed in my reply to Stuart): the strokes after the 5, the 6 and the 3 are redundant if there is no strumming since the rythmn is already given by the flag above the stave. This led to questionning the meaning of these marks - not only in this piece (discussed by F) but in many others eg Balletto Pollaca where single notes are shown both with slashes and flags AND with just flags. I'm not sure I agree with you that a slash/stroke mark with a flag ALWAYS require an obligatory strum but I certainly do think the possibility of strumming (even partial - ie top courses in an upwards stroke) cannot always be ruled out. And you'll see from my earlier response to Stuart that, like you, I believe it can add to the rythmic stresses of the music. The de Gallot Italianate example discussed earlier is a good unequivocal example in another source. Finally, one thing I've been thinking about is a sort of compromise: could Foscarini be trying to indicate a dedillo type of index finger stroke - this is of course very close to a small strum stroke and adds a natural rythmic pulse to single note passages - rather similar to a light partial strum in fact. But the difficulty here is that you'd expect his description to include something about such an unusual approach. Martyn If the discussion is still about Balletto Polacca, here it is: [1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/26.jpg There's a splodge in the middle of line one and here is a close-up. [2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/26a.jpg The use of a dedillo type stroke is mentioned in several sources for the mandore. And at this sort of time. But they are French sources, not Italian. Stuart --- On Tue, 7/9/10, Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play? To: Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 13:37 Thanks Stuart for posting the manuscript. Thanks for your playing as well... Looking at the manuscript, I'm trying to find the notorious doubled expression for a note... Namely, what is redundant, and hence opens the question, why would the composer use redundant expressions for a note? The flags above the staff indicating duration are in no way redundant... They would be there for rasgueado or punteado, because they indicate how many strokes are in a measure (when the music expresses measures), and how much time should be between strokes. What IS redundant is the expression of a NUMBER value along with a strum mark. The existence of a number in the tab indicates a stroke, so adding the strum mark is a second indication of the same stroke. Up to now I had misunderstood what Martyn was commenting on. So Martyn, are you saying that there should be no stroke mark if there is a number on a string? Because that is the only redundancy I can see. As to *why* there would be a strum mark if there is also a number, I can still maintain that it's to indicate up- vs down-strokes for the individual notes. That is important -- especially so if you use bordones. But even without bordones, up or down lends a variation to the pulse, and there's nothing trivial about that. Further, looking at the manuscript, I see that Foscarini calls for changes in the up/down pulse that I didn't initially hit upon from Monica's transcription. I wonder if Monica would consider adding in the strum maks for those notes, or some other indication of up- vs down-stroke. But my point remains -- even if you take a number as a single note only, the expression of the single note and the strum direction are not redundant in my view. Now if anything for the BORDONE argument, you could take the stroke marks after the G as an argument in favor of bordones... Why insist on a down-stroke to start that figure, when it echos an earlier figure that began with an up-stroke?. But to be honest, I have no appetite for that argument! When the day comes that I put bordones on my
[VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3
The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, I have come across some beautiful Youtube videos of Lex Eisenhardt (my former guitar teacher at the Conservatory of Amsterdam before I studied the lute) that I well worth watching: http://www.youtube.com/user/secondolibro I hope you enjoy them! Greetings, Alfonso It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini
Monica Hall wrote: Yes - I was a bit surprised by the title. I wonder if it was a misprint for la favorita which is the subtitle of the Zarabanda. That would be an amazing Freudian slip to mean to engrave favorita and instead end up with funebre! But it is one of the pieces which is probably an arrangement of a lute piece. Sounds quite nice played with a bourdon on the 5th course! How about doing the rest of the suite? The preludio and alemanda gave me quite a few headaches. I have nearly finished Book 5 but at the moment I am working on the scordatura pieces. Had enough spare time to re-tune my guitar and the Django programme. I found this scordatura tuning very refreshing (and fresh sounding - especially the chords) when I had a go at the pieces in it, a while ago. I seem to remember you saying that you found it rather depressing. It's a sort of G major tuning without the low G. I once thought that there just might be a connection between this tuning and the tuning for the Russian guitar which emerged around 1800 (OK - 160 years later). Then you pointed to well over 30 other tunings for the Baroque guitar! Quite independently of Lex, I found three pieces in the scordatura section that are reasonably coherent without too much intervention. But the other pieces are much more problematic, I think. I felt that Fosco had found some things that he liked in that tuning and was beginning to repeat himself in the scordatura section (it's like a microcosm of the work as a whole). Nevertheless the Toccata, Corrente and Sarabanda are great little pieces (most of all the Sarabanda). Stuart Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:17 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini Great title, though a bit surprisingly it's in F major. This is one of Monica's interpretations of Foscarini's puzzling tablatures. I've changed the last bit of the first section and bars 30/31 and bar 33. (Also, I'm an amateur trying to squeeze every bit of sound out of a guitar which hardly has any). It's by Foscarini - so it's got 'issues'.It's a Corrente - so flowing? It's got a descriptive title - funereally flowing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zud0X76iSA The Foscarini solos are on Monica's page: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente by Foscarini and scordatura
I found this scordatura tuning very refreshing (and fresh sounding - especially the chords) when I had a go at the pieces in it, a while ago. I seem to remember you saying that you found it rather depressing. Stuart I think the music sounds rather sinister - if not funebre - especially the sarabande. I have done this and the allemande and am working on the Passemezzo. Monica I'm intrigued that you find this tuning 'sinister'. I had a go at playing three of the scordatura pieces a couple of years ago and I found this tuning almost intoxicating. I've dug out a rough old video and uploaded it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tjQfcvqbQ The Sarabanda is the really strange one.Lex has written about it in the latest edition of 'The Lute' (as you know). It's very chordal but completely free of alfabeto and the usual chord shapes and sounds which have been familiar for centuries. Lex sees it as French and slow and sultry. I - and I'm just an amateur floundering about in these waters - had been reading about the sarabanda as a dance that had been banned in some places because it was so lewd! I thought it was quite fast. (But, I suppose, a dance can danced sexually either slow or fast). I found that playing the Sarabanda quite fast made it at least 10 times more difficult than the other two pieces. The most juicy chord in there, which may be a mistake of course, but sounds amazing, is a sort of combination of tonic and dominant at once. It's very intense but finds resolution too () Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such as it is. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Cc: 'List LUTELIST' l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BEfeature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to sound improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Chris Despopoulos wrote: Interesting... I didn't find this to be so much out of character. If anything, I would want to hear it played a little bolder perhaps. A branle is a dance, and the same tune was probably repeated many times. It had to be embellished. What if the crowd needed a moment to get back to the starting position before commencing again? THrow in a little vamp. Yes, but...probably the little four-course guitar was not providing dance music for a crowd. And the four-course guitar dance arrangements were probably not intended to provide music for any dancers (though it's possible). The LeRoy guitar books have a selection of dances, chanson settings and fantasias, they're not dance books per se, like the Gervaise publications (though some tunes in Gervaise are in LeRoy). And Massimo Lonardi isn't a live recording from a dance event, trying to adjust to errant dancers. Stuart Well, all this is speculation. Really, period musicians should study dances of the time just to get a better sense of the situation. I'm hoping for a chance to do that some day. But this year I think my big lesson is that much of the music was functional. And so the chore in front of me now is to learn more about those functions. cud *From:* Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com *To:* Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu *Cc:* List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 2:03:31 PM *Subject:* [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained
[VIHUELA] Foscarini: Capriccio
Here's one of Monica's transcriptions/reconstructions of Foscarini. Decently played on a decent instrument, I'm sure it would make an attractive, calm, easy-going amble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AasnlO4d9c Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. For some reason the first suite reminds me of a very old recording of Schaffer's on Baroque lute of a suite in G minor by Bittner. Someone said the recording is 'close' and you can hear fingers on strings - other than playing the notes! - and indeed the man himself breathing. (My wife thinks he looks like the actor, Patrick Stewart). He surely gets a very nice sound from the guitar and his brushing of chords is very delicate (some players are rather raspy) and lots of ornaments. The Prelude of this first suite is quite slow with familiar little phrases but Rosario gives his all. The Allemande has a little percussive sound at the beginning which happens at the repeat? Seems very well played to me. The Courante sounds fine to me too but I agree with others that the Sarabande is too slow. The Baroque lute can be played super slow (as it were) but I'm not sure this very slow tempo suits the guitar, or even this particular sarabande. A fine gigue (which is reminiscent of something else) and a swingless Passacaille to end. Stuart Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. Monica -- I just looked on Amazon UK. Is it called Une larme with a rather fierce-looking chap on the CD cover who looks like he's going to bash you over the head with his Baroque guitar? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA]
'The Lute' 47 (2007) has just appeared, devoted to the five course guitar. Articles on tuning/stringing and notational matters, by Monica Hall and by yours truly. It will be available from the Lute Society webshop. rgds, Lex Fascinating reading. I'm enjoying all articles. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata
That is fascinating! I haven't had time to look at the pieces closely but it doesn't surprise me. Most of the introduction to Granata's 1646 book has also been copied from Foscarini. And he accused Corbetta of plagiarism! But the pieces may not be by Foscarini either! Monica Here are the two corrente (Fosco and Granata) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran.jpg (I hope I haven't made them too small). They are not the same - but very similar - especially when you play them. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini-Granata I suppose this is well known, but it's news to me: A French chap on the EGV ning site put up a scan of Granata (1659) a few days ago. It's got some re-entrant tunings at the end of the book and it has got the re-entrant tuning that Foscarini used, 'la cordatura diferente' (Fosco p.99). And it's got a couple of the same tunes too! This particular tuning in Granata (B-D-G-B-D) begins on page 88. The 'corrente' on page 90 in Granata is the very similar to the Foscarini 'corrente' (admittedly with some differences) and the very sultry sarabande in Foscarini, is here in Granata (p.92) a 'pasacgli'. Granata's 'pasacgli' is different in some ways but it's such a characterful piece that it is unmistakably the same material (including a particularly juicy chord) as Foscarini's 'sarabande'. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Some 19th- century song arrangements for seven-string guitar
From 24 Russian and Ukrainian songs arranged for 'Russian' seven-string guitar by V.Morkov (1840-ish?). Some of these melodies had already been set by Sychra, sometimes with fancy variations. Morkov's version of 'Go home my [dear] cow is really quite different from Sychra's melody. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ4rmG5GXmU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgK94SVTJ9M Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Monica Hall wrote: I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title The baroque guitar made simple I'll certainly be reading it all. When you say baroque guitar made simple, do you mean 'the tangled world of Baroque guitar issues' made simple rather than playing the thing? Stuart and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 2 short pieces for seven-string guitar in G
Monica Hall wrote: There is very little discussion now on the vihuela list either these days. Perhaps we only really need one lutelist after all. I listened to your Russian piece. Nice, but the sound kept fading away. Keep at it. Monica Thanks for having a listen. I put up two pieces and they both sound OK to me - in the sense that the sound doesn't keep fading away. The first piece is quite odd in having clearly notated rests: it looks like you should really pause and not let the notes ring on. So maybe the sound wasn't fading but it was just the pauses! Some of this Russian stuff is extremely meticulously notated but maybe I was taking the notation too literally. And, perhaps we just need one lutelist. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] 2 short pieces for seven-string guitar in G Wayne closed down the 'early guitar' discussion list. Reasonably enough: there was no discussion and it wasn't really about the early guitar, but the nineteenth century guitar. So I think this vihuela list has to be the place for little forays into the 19th century. Anyway I've been looking at some music for an instrument simply known as 'seven string guitar' but written like this:семиструнная гитара and better known to non-Russians as the 'Russian' guitar and tuned to a G major chord. There are quite a few videos for the instrument on youtube. Mostly they are gypsy things: very fast and flashy or Russian variation-sets, also very fast and flashy. Big, fast, loud, assertive, very technically proficient performances. So I thought it would be interesting to put up a couple of pieces that are not any of these! Here are two little pieces (amateur performances) 1) (so the music says) a Romance, arranged by V.Sarenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtrsfN78dY 2) Not knowing Russian beyond the alpahbet I have no idea what this is called. But it's a little tune with two variations. Sychra wrote variation sets which are very challenging but this is an easy one. Still, it's challenging enough for me. I think they had a lot of time on their hands back in the day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcZor6IZJag (the Sarenko piece is an oddity. It doesn't sound like other 'Romances' and it doesn't seem much like other pieces by Sarenko and it's not in the (can't remember the spelling) Stellowsky (or however as it is rendered in English) catalogue. It doesn't go higher than the fourth fret. Sarenko wrote a 'romance without words' (if I've got that right) but that Romance has a gliss up to the twelfth fret in the very first bar and it has harmonics and it's not at all like this little 'Romance'. On the other hand, this little 'Romance' although it's not flashy it's so spare, it's really difficult to play.) Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: la folia gioventù
bill kilpatrick wrote: la folia gioventu - re-working of an original song with the trad. la folia chord progression. duo recording with mandolin and as close as i'll ever get to a vihuela or baroque guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBqH--FsygY - bill Very attractive and persuasive playing and singing. La Folia has been done so many times it can sound just like a formula but you give it a sort of nonchalant melancholy (in modern form of our times). I'm sure you could get closer to vihuela or Baroque guitar if you really wanted to. Stuart http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=billkilpatrick -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2646 - Release Date: 01/26/10 07:46:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini
Monica Hall wrote: I have just added 3 more pieces to my Foscarini opus on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com site - the ones in E major on p.117. They are right at the end. For the time being I will put all new pieces at the end rather than stick to page order of the book to save time. Quite strange - even for him? I looked at the Prelude and the harmonies and immediately wondered if a low fifth would be in order. So I bunged on one. Not so sure. Anyway - here's a go at the prelude - can't really make sense of it.Maybe somebody else will have a crack at it! http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoEprel.mp3 Stuart I wonder if there are any twitchers on this list (Stuart perhaps No - but have many other failings ). I was thrilled to see a whole flock of redwing on a tree in my back garden this morning and can't resist the urge to tell the world. I live in the least desirable part of the London Borough of Islington where things like that never happen. Monica -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.129/2605 - Release Date: 01/07/10 07:35:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini Passacaglio
A few more thoughts on the passacaglia. I spent a bit more time looking at Foscos passacaglie and of course he does make a distinction between the passacaglia which is in a minor key and ciaccona which is in a major key. The same distinction is made by Corbetta in his 1643 book although it is not so clear as the pieces aren't individually titled. Gallot - who copied most of them does rather inconsistently label them either passacaglie or ciaccona. Bartolotti just refers to all his as Passacaglie on p.1 apart from the Ciaccona on p. 49. Not sure what that proves but it seemed interesting. Cheers Monica Another thing about some of the later passacaglie of Fosco's is the fact that they are in two parts (I mean Part 1 - set of variations followed by Part 2 - more variarions). Does any other composer do this with the passacaglio? Given that the passacaglio is variations over a chord sequence what could make Part 2 different from just another Passacaglio in that key? What is it in Part 1 that is extended in Part 2? But Fosco does this with at least one Toccato too. It must be some rhetorical thing or other? Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini Passacaglio On the ning site Monica wrote: 'Passacalles literally means pass through the streets.' Interesting. And so you could be passing through the streets purposefully or perhaps just meandering about.At the beginning of his book (his collected works, as it were) Foscarini gives the 'Passacalli sopra tutti le lettere' which seem to be just four bars with four chords (not starting on first beat of bar). And, more or less, that's how most passacalles I've ever seen are structured: a four bar scheme endlessly repeated. (Some in the Gallot MS don't always fit, though) But Foscarini's own examples of the passacalles don't fit this at all. They really do seem to just meander about, always hinting at a typical passaccalles but never quite being it. Monica has had a go at an edited reconstruction of one in E minor. *http://tinyurl.com/y8mvxfd (page 17) -Passacaglio Variato sopra l'+* // There is no (easily discernible) repeated four bar structure and no (easily discernible) direction to the music. And it's in two parts! After 57 bars the first part ends and second part sort of carries on in more or less the same way for another 64 bars. And it's as if Foscarini really liked the sound and feel of certain chord changes - especially E minor at second position to B minor with a g in the melody on top. I've had a go at the first part. Technically it is not difficult piece but I always manage to make a pig's ear of one bit or another and my guitar runs out of tone in bars 16-19; it's like squeezing an orange with no juice left. But I suspect a good player could make something of the piece and the Part 2 would go yet deeper into the strange little world. Maybe the use of repicco and trillo would spice it up a bit? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XiJS0GVT5A Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2601 - Release Date: 01/05/10 07:35:00
[VIHUELA] Re: New Year gift
Stuart Walsh wrote: Dear list members, For those of you who are interested in the vihuela, I have just published a new bilingual internet version of my 2003 book Tañer vihuela según Juan Bermudo. It is a method of learning to play the vihuela based on the pedagogical principles elaborated by Bermudo in his 1555 Declaración de instrumentos musicales. You can find it at: http://www.vihuelagriffiths.com/JohnGriffiths/Vihuela_playing.html It comprises a selection of twenty pieces following the order suggested by Bermudo. For each piece, I have included the original tablature, plus analytical transcriptions for instruments in G (lutes and vihuelas) and for instruments in E (especially for modern guitarists). The material can be used for individual study or for group learning. All the music, tablature and transcriptions, is in downloadable pdf format. I hope you will find it useful. Good wishes, John Griffiths Looks really interesting. I've been playing through some of it on a lute - as far as Tant que Vivray. (I used to like the lute setting in Attaignant). Right away it seems a different world from the lute - and even further from the guitar. (! I mean different from the later five-course guitar playing alfabeto - mixed style, not the four-course guitar) I got the Lute Society's edition of Osborn fb7 recently - really easy lute music and it's just so different from this ultra sober world! Those two-part pieces which are the beginning seem like something you would only attempt after you'd got a really solid basis from playing simpler pieces. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2601 - Release Date: 01/05/10 07:35:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2601 - Release Date: 01/05/10 07:35:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Re-entrant tuning
Monica Hall wrote: There is a very amusing cartoon about the re-entrant tuning in the latest issue of Early Music Review. I hope I am not infringing their copyright! But I have put it on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page for the benefit of people who don't see this particular journal. Monica -- Nice joke. I'm still worrying about it! Actually, maybe, it's not re-entrant tuning per se that is the problem. In a way, fully re-entrant tuning is no problem. In fully re-entrant tuning, with both fifth and fourth up an octave, you just play and do the best you can. The real anxiety (but, as you have often said, not for you, Monica) is having an octave and a bourdon on the fourth, or on the fourth and the fifth AND, as most people do, having the higher string in the position where the thumb naturally strikes it before the lower. Now there are possibilities - but not documented possibilities - possibilities to emphasise either the octave or the bourdon in different situations. I was playing my guitar again today, with a bourdon on the fourth (a very corny, half-baked concept): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTAOV49TSKM and I feel I just have to - in this music - really, really try to make the fourth mainly a bass course. Stuart References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.45/2476 - Release Date: 11/02/09 07:51:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini
Monica Hall wrote: Fifty! Monica I can't access your ning page... it's just a blank. Is it because you have been winding up the lute list? Stuart - Original Message - From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Foscarini In case anyone is still interested in Foscarini I added several more pieces on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com site including the very long toccatta on p.114-115. Interesting piece although not sure if my re-construction is very convincing. there are now 30 pieces - of silver. Monica So what would be an example of gold? Stuart -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2362 - Release Date: 09/11/09 05:50:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know - everything still seems to be there. Could send you the PDF privately if you are anxious to see latest developments. Monica I'm sure your page will be visible soon. But I still can't see anything on your ning page other than your name and the little woodcut thing. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 7:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini Monica Hall wrote: Fifty! Monica I can't access your ning page... it's just a blank. Is it because you have been winding up the lute list? Stuart - Original Message - From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Foscarini In case anyone is still interested in Foscarini I added several more pieces on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com site including the very long toccatta on p.114-115. Interesting piece although not sure if my re-construction is very convincing. there are now 30 pieces - of silver. Monica So what would be an example of gold? Stuart -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2362 - Release Date: 09/11/09 05:50:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2362 - Release Date: 09/11/09 05:50:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Quills, 15the century dance and plucked duos
Ed Durbrow wrote: Crawford Young said he has tried nearly every kind of plectrum and has settled on the narrow end of an eagle feather stripped down. In fact, he was using a nylon guitar string as a plectrum when I saw his concert and all during the seminar I attended. Yes, that came up in a previous discussion. I'm really surprised - I thought that really fast players, jazzers and rockers, blazed around their fingerboards with plectrums made of reinforced concrete! Another thing that came up in previous discussion of quills was a reference to a website giving an account of an 18th century method (Leone?) of preparing a quill. This method used the usual end of the quill and (if I remember) it was important to use the quill of only some creatures (like ravens) and the method of production was certainly quite intricate. (Also, I seem to remember accounts of quills being steeped in liquids... oils or something). Anyway, using the other end of the quill, I wouldn't have thought it mattered much what bird feather was used and preparation is no more than taking off the feathery stuff and smoothing it a bit. But I know nothing of the subtleties of plectrumstechnique and the bottom line is that just about anything could be used as a plectrum. On the other hand, using the thin end of the quill in this way, and the way you have to hold it, does end up looking like a lot of illustrations of medieval playing. one of the dances, Giloxia, by Domenico Very nice. When was this written? 15th century dance is a large field and I know very little about it. Most of the dances are just lines of long notes - no discernible melody. But this Giloxia by Domenico actually sounds like like a tune in itself. Nevertheless, in this realisation of it by Ian Gatiss, Ian treats the line like any other tenor line and so he creates a faster moving top line and then a bass underneath. (As perhaps was done by two shawms and a sackbut in haut contexts?) I've tried to see if I could contact Ian Gatiss, having met him just once and that many years ago. Some of his work on early dance is online. Ian was very unassuming about his own realisations, encouraging people to try to create their own versions - this is an improvisatory tradition. But Ian's realisation (aimed probably at amateur wind and string players) is very attractive and just a little bit obsessive; quite a nice touch in view of the title of the piece. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Quills, 15the century dance and plucked duos
The topic of plectrums comes up every so often and I was really surprised that for medieval (or early renaissance) music, some people use the other end of the quill - not the bit you might use as a pen. So I've having a go. I'm left-handed playing right-handedly so any kind of plectrum is a bit of a problem. But the wobbly quill thing is no better nor worse than a modern plastic one, once you get used to it. I went on a one-day course, years ago, run by Ian Gatiss, an early dance specialist. Fifteenth century dance, evidently, is something of a mine field, both in the interpretation of the dance moves and in the music - which just survives as tenor lines. Ian had composed some lines above and below the existing tenor in something like the style. So his version of the music is in three parts. There's lot of evidence of plucked duos from the fifteenth century. Possibly, probably... there were amateurs as well as professionals playing this stuff? One player was the tenorista. So I've put the tenor and Ian's lower line on a five course 'lute' - the tenorista role, using the emerging finger-plucked technique. And the faster, upper line (Ian's own imagining) on a quill-plucked home-made (!) citole. Here's an mp3 version of one of the dances, Giloxia, by Domenico: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Giloxia.mp3 and a version with a pretty picture, on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrt1wxFko0 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Monica Hall wrote: Granata has not clearly indicated in any of his books that he favoured one method of stringing the 5-course guitar over another. It is therefore an open question. I see - I understand what you are saying. There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oleg is a great scholar and fine player now based in Iowa City, but his goes to eleven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Timofeyev Eugene Interesting. I got the information about the Russian 10-string guitar from Oleg's Ph.D thesis (page 58). When I was looking around online I could only find information (via MO's site) about 11-string Russian guitars:7+4. Oleg is saying, in his thesis, that Russian guitars with extra basses have the same range as ordinary Russian guitars tuned down a tone. Maybe he has changed his mind. I've never seen music for Russian guitars with extra basses. Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:02 PM To: Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee Monica Hall wrote: Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- Quite an intricate argument! So, for the Gallot pieces, the bass line is either implausibly low or - if an octave higher - then just one extra course tuned to G would give the same range as seven (!) extra basses? Sorry, if I've misunderstood. It might be slightly interesting to note that the normal 7-string Russian guitar (of the 19th century) had a version with extra basses but was tuned so that the lowest string was only one tone lower than the ordinary 7-string version. The ordinary Russian guitar has the seventh string at D, the Russian 10-string guitar has the lowest note at C. Yet, quite often, music for the 7-string guitar directs the player to lower the seventh string to C. So the ordinary, 7-string Russian guitar covers the same range as the 10-string version. But the extra basses are not primarily functioning to extend the range of bass notes but perhaps for sonority or to make some bass notes easier to play. Maybe something similar is intended for the Gallot instrument? Was it mentioned in the recent discussion that at least one maker is offering a guitar with extra basses - for playing the music of Granata...and...Gallot? Stuart References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Ukulele and Renaissance Guitar
Sauvage Valéry wrote: Yes, nice book, I like very much the Playford pieces, and the arrangement upon The Three Ravens (I recorded it on YT... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG5yp7jFL0c with a few others) Val I recorded a video response to your recording of 'The Three Ravens' - just using a modern half-size classical guitar. It's an arrangement of a Gervaise Pavane by Pascale Boquet. I hope to get a four-course guitar some day... It hasn't appeared yet as a response on your page (?) so it's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOg3hl4yqZM Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh I've just spent a few days away and wanted to take a small instrument which was not too precious. I've just got 108 pieces pour renaissance guitare arranged by Pascale Boquet (Vol 18 of Le Secret des Muses) published by the French Lute Society. I haven't got a four-course guitar. I tried a uke (well a cavaquinho) - 33cms string length, and what feels like a very wide string spacing and a little 6-string guitar (half size?) with a string length of 47.5 cms and, even ignoring the lower two strings and widening the spaces a bit between the top four strings, still is very closely spaced. I find the little 6-string guitar, much more satisfactory than the uke/cavaquinho - which is just too small. I'd go for a baritone uke or a half-size guitar (I got mine in an auction for £5 but they are really cheap anyway). I hired the Lute Society's good-quality Renaissance guitar recently and I realise that modern ukes/guitars are very different - but still well worth a go. It was fun looking at the Boquet arrangements (including some originals from Phalese). The pieces are arranged according to country of origin, beginning with France and ending with 'Angleterre' (which includes O'Neill arrangements!). Some of the arrangements (including many familiar pieces) work better than others but it's a delightful book and must have taken a lot of work. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.10/2231 - Release Date: 07/11/09 05:57:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscaring
Monica Hall wrote: Oh well - I will set the cat amongst the pigeons by saying that I see no reason why you shouldn't play Foscarini's music with a fully re-entrant tuning. Later editions were after all printed in Rome. The fact that he included some tuning instruction in his 1629 book which were simply re-printed in all subsequent editions doesn't indicate that he thought only one method of stringing was suitable for his music or anyone elses for that matter. Here are three Foscarini pieces (page 18, page 7 and page 27 o f Monica's edition) in fully re-entrant tuning. I did them hastily last night but my ISP went down so I couldn't upload them. I suppose I should have tried for more careful versions today - but they're just meant to be something like the sound of Foscarini without basses. I've not tried the two Allemandes before, but James Tyler recorded the little D minor Capriccio many years ago. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/3Fosc.mp3 Personally I play everything with octave stringing on the fourth course only and always will do. Monica But the guitar sounds so different in different stringing arrangements. It's fun trying them all. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Foscaring Monica Hall wrote: Just for the record - I have added 4 more pieces to my Foscarini edition on [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com 2 from Book 3 and 2 from Book 5. I will probably give it a rest now for the time being. It's fun doing them - but it's not great music. Monica I'm currently in fully re-entrant tuning - trying to give it a really good go! And there's no question, no possibility of 'workarounds', as it were, in fully re-entrant tuning. One of the great things about the guitar is that is takes just a few minutes to re-string with a bass, basses or no basses, and maybe a an hour or so to settle down, and then you have a very different instrument. I'll be needing a change soon - so I'm looking forward to trying your edition of Foscarini. I used to think that Foscarini was almost incomprehensible, but now - after discussions on this list and your patient advice, and trying to play the stuff - and listening to Lex, I think some moments in Foscarini are the most vividly alive of all early guitar music. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.44/2140 - Release Date: 05/28/09 18:09:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.44/2140 - Release Date: 05/28/09 18:09:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscaring
Monica Hall wrote: Just for the record - I have added 4 more pieces to my Foscarini edition on [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com 2 from Book 3 and 2 from Book 5. I will probably give it a rest now for the time being. It's fun doing them - but it's not great music. Monica I'm currently in fully re-entrant tuning - trying to give it a really good go! And there's no question, no possibility of 'workarounds', as it were, in fully re-entrant tuning. One of the great things about the guitar is that is takes just a few minutes to re-string with a bass, basses or no basses, and maybe a an hour or so to settle down, and then you have a very different instrument. I'll be needing a change soon - so I'm looking forward to trying your edition of Foscarini. I used to think that Foscarini was almost incomprehensible, but now - after discussions on this list and your patient advice, and trying to play the stuff - and listening to Lex, I think some moments in Foscarini are the most vividly alive of all early guitar music. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.44/2140 - Release Date: 05/28/09 18:09:00
[VIHUELA] first furtive forays into the fifteenth century
From the Buxheim Orgelbuch (= plucked duo, as well as organ?). Some technical issues - but anyway, here's 'Ein buer gein holtze' by Jacobus Viletti (yes, him) - a singer in the chapel at Naples in 1480. The melody has an unusually busy 'accompaniment' - which seems to be happening simultaneously with the melody rather than integral with it. And there is an unmistakeably 'blues' note towards the end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDwIZ7U9CtUfeature=channel_page Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Péñola, early references
Monica Hall wrote: i? That's very brave of you. I started to read it a few years ago and gave up. It's sitting looking reproachfully at me on the shelf! Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Nelson, Jocelyn To: [2]Eloy Cruz ; [3]Vihuela list ; [4]John Griffiths ; [5]Monica Hall Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:45 AM I happen to be reading David H. Rosenthal's English translation of the 15th c. Catalan novel, Tirant Lo Blanc. In chapter 154, the hero is praised for his abilities to entertain, among other things: He gaily entertains his friends with music and dancing, being both courteous to ladies and fearless among knights. In his tents, some wrestle and turn somersaults; others play checkers or chess; others act foolish or solemn; others speak of war or love; OTHERS PLAY LUTES, GUITARS, OR FLUTES OR SING 5-PART HARMONIES, and so anyone who seeks merriment will find it with our captain. This was published in 1490 in Valencia, but much of it was supposed to have been written several decades earlier. And of course this is just a translation; I don't have the Catalan, so I don't know what words were used that Rosenthal translated as lute and guitar. This is quite a bit later than the poetry that opened this conversation, but, for me, still early enough to be interesting. Isn't it neat that one of the typical party amusements was to sing in a5 harmony? Jocelyn Is it a bit surprising too? I thought that this was a time of change from three-part to four-part writing. The context suggests pleasant diversions, checkers and somersaults (!). Maybe five-part harmonies meant something simple but it conjures up images of performing Boulez at a garden fete! Stuart From: Eloy Cruz [6]eloyc...@avantel.net Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:48:04 -0400 To: Vihuela list [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Penola Sorry, once again the DRAE: penola. (Del lat. pennula, pluma). 1. f. pluma (|| de ave para escribir). Yes, a quill Best Eloy To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu 2. mailto:eloyc...@avantel.net 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:jag...@unimelb.edu.au 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/eloyc...@avantel.net 7. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2129 - Release Date: 05/22/09 17:56:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Valderrabano sonetos
Rob MacKillop wrote: I've uploaded four of Valderrabano's 'primero grado' sonetos: [1]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm really excellent fantasias and nowhere near as difficult as those by Fuenllana, Narvaez, Mudarra, etc. Rob -- I've been trying to play them on a lute. Trickier than they look, I think. Stuart References 1. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2130 - Release Date: 05/23/09 07:00:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Valderrabano sonetos
Rob MacKillop wrote: You have the score upside down, Stuart... ;-) OK, got the score the right way up. I'm looking at the fourth Soneta (91va) and listened to your version (gut basses?). Anyway, you make it sound well enough but I can't find much direction in the piece, especially from about half way through. I tried playing it lot slower but, to me, it feels like it should be really skipping along. I tried playing it faster - but then it gets too difficult. (I hired the Lute Society's Renaissance guitar recently and was trying the Spanish four-course music. The pieces marked as 'simple' only looked simple in that they didn't use high positions.) Anyway, Rob, I've attached an effort. I think it should be several notches faster...and so, quite a tricky piece. Just my opinion, of course, and open to debate on the matter! Stuart Rob 2009/5/23 Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Rob MacKillop wrote: I've uploaded four of Valderrabano's 'primero grado' sonetos: [1][2]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm really excellent fantasias and nowhere near as difficult as those by Fuenllana, Narvaez, Mudarra, etc. Rob -- I've been trying to play them on a lute. Trickier than they look, I think. Stuart References 1. [3]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2130 - Release Date: 05/23/09 07:00:00 -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm 3. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.avg.com/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2130 - Release Date: 05/23/09 07:00:00 --
