[Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 18http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTmethodofco.pdflast year. In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg matter but does not actually mention Rydberg. Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show identical effects. Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons. Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?
RE: [Vo]:US Examiner Addresses Andrea Rossi US Patent Application
Having just read Mats Lewan's An Impossible Invention I would bet on Rossi knowing what he is doing. He's been through all this a coupe of times before. In particular, consider what would have happened if he had described the E-Cat in sufficient detail that others could make a working version and the Patent Office has turned it down for any reason. As they have done for the present application. Then others would have his secrets for free. I have little confidence in the patent system anyway. The patent is not worth anything until it has been expensively defended in court. The patent situation for LENR is in such a mess I expect the lawyers will make as much as the inventors at least for the first few years. I view his current patent as just a holding position. If there is to be a real patent it will probably be for the catalyst/powder treatment that gives a high output, for the Hot Cat that is significantly different, and probably for the two stage Mouse and Cat that will provide a higher COP.
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen. Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the correct energy level. Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills. Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case. It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states. I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the possibility does seem compelling. In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs. One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs. The hydroton configuration could provide the evanescent coupling needed to take the H to fractional levels. Bob Higgins On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.comwrote: Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 18http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTmethodofco.pdflast year. In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg matter but does not actually mention Rydberg. Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show identical effects. Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons. Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil, As Lennart Thornros pointed out, the problem was that DGT never paid into the escrow account by the promised date. So there was doubt that they could pay Rossi no matter how well the E-Cat worked. As Mats pointed out, Rossi was prone to jump to conclusions about what was still just a pending deal, so without being there it is difficult to apportion blame.
RE: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
From: Jed Rothwell Defkalion is a two-bit company with an ever changing mailing address and a web page that is down for weeks. They have never published a single credible report, or any real data. Their presentations are amateur... If they have something they are doing a lousy job demonstrating it. You forgot to mention that the CEO admitted to stealing Rossi's formula ! Fortunately for Rossi, apparently DGT is not accomplished in industrial espionage, which sadly was the main thing they had going for them. Since they are now broke - DGT is no longer worth our time to consider as being a relevant player in LENR. Good riddance. Brillouin appears to have bombed out as well but do not despair. Fortunately, there is one, and likely two new players in Europe with good results being shown to the same investors who turned down DGT. Well, STM is not really a rumor but the other one is. It likely a spin-off of Nichenergy. This should be an interesting month.
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
This is really funny seeing people calling DGT presentation amateur while being completely oblivious to the complete incompetence of Rossi's presentation! It's so full of holes that we can hardly exclude cheating from any of them. Concerning DGT amateur presentation, Mats calculated an output of 27COP, and that's on live. For me, at least DGT, this is mostly bad mouth by Jed, due his naivete in dealing with business. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Bob-- What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena? The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and maybe others unknown. Some of these may be controlled more or less by the local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be at any instant particular instant in time. Bob - Original Message - From: Bob Higgins To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not? Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen. Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the correct energy level. Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills. Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case. It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states. I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the possibility does seem compelling. In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs. One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs. The hydroton configuration could provide the evanescent coupling needed to take the H to fractional levels. Bob Higgins On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote: Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 18 last year. In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg matter but does not actually mention Rydberg. Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show identical effects. Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons. Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Since they are now broke - DGT is no longer worth our time to consider as being a relevant player in LENR. Good riddance. Brillouin appears to have bombed out as well but do not despair. More players in the LENR market place can only help LENR get off the ground in these most delicate and precarious of times. And then later deflect the well moneyed and massive attacks that are sure to come from big oil and gas by defusing and blunting these attracts just on the merit of the sheer volume of the numbers of targets. I would even wish Mills success in whatever he is doing. It is always better to have more soldiers in your army than less, especially at the very opening and the vanguard of battle. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Jed Rothwell Defkalion is a two-bit company with an ever changing mailing address and a web page that is down for weeks. They have never published a single credible report, or any real data. Their presentations are amateur... If they have something they are doing a lousy job demonstrating it. You forgot to mention that the CEO admitted to stealing Rossi's formula ! Fortunately for Rossi, apparently DGT is not accomplished in industrial espionage, which sadly was the main thing they had going for them. Since they are now broke - DGT is no longer worth our time to consider as being a relevant player in LENR. Good riddance. Brillouin appears to have bombed out as well but do not despair. Fortunately, there is one, and likely two new players in Europe with good results being shown to the same investors who turned down DGT. Well, STM is not really a rumor but the other one is. It likely a spin-off of Nichenergy. This should be an interesting month.
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is really funny seeing people calling DGT presentation amateur while being completely oblivious to the complete incompetence of Rossi's presentation! No one I know has said Rossi does good presentations. The two are unrelated. The fact that Rossi does bad presentation does not excuse bad presentations by DGT. Also, Rossi has never agreed to come to a conference, whereas the DGT people have come to them, and made video presentations. These presentations raised more questions than they answered. DGT agreed to come to the recent MIT symposium but they cancelled at the last minute, which is unprofessional. It's so full of holes that we can hardly exclude cheating from any of them. I disagree. I think that some of Rossi's tests were solid. I see no holes in the ELFORSK tests. No skeptic has published a credible critique of the ELFORSK test as far as I know. The only critiques I have seen are so bad they show that the skeptics do not have a leg to stand on. For me, at least DGT, this is mostly bad mouth by Jed, due his naivete in dealing with business. I have been accused of many things, but naivete is not among them. The business model described here by Axil Axil is that companies such as General Electric or Boeing have succeeded by filching small sums of money from contractors. That is not true. I have dealt with these companies and I am sure they pay their bills. I am quite sure Boeing would not be a profitable major corporation if their main source of revenue was to steal $1,400 at a time from people like me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
You are the one claiming steal, when it perhaps was it is you to blame incompetence by dealing with them. You want people to believe you, while in my opinion, you want to be pampered and spoiled, or not accused of incompetence, by anyone in the field. It's obvious that you are the incompetent, since you are the one claimed by being stolen for $1400 and claiming the need to do so in order to have revenue. This an irrational excuse from you. Just look at the fact that they wouldn't even be able to even put up a show with that, or even, travel to another country. You are shameless. 2014-04-08 12:08 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: I am quite sure Boeing would not be a profitable major corporation if their main source of revenue was to steal $1,400 at a time from people like me. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: I feel sorryfor Jed being screwed of money. Not fair and I agree with Jed there is not worth the effort to get them back. Don't worry about it. It was nothing. Actually, it was worth the money. The fact that they did not pay, and then they went on to make ridiculous excuses for not paying, tells me a lot about the company. In a way, it tells me more than a visit or a close look at their video presentation would. They gave me proof that they cannot be trusted. As I said, they are either broke or they are deadbeats. Either way they are in trouble. This is like paying $1,400 to a credit rating company to find out about Defkalion. An credit rating evaluation usually costs less than that, but in this case I can be sure the evaluation is correct. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
A contractor tells a subcontractor what the terms of getting paid are in a specification that is agreed upon by both parties. If the subcontractor fails to meet that specification in the opinion of the contractor, then the subcontractor is not paid for the subpar work. Was your work for DGT up to its specification? Obviously, it was not in the opinion of DGT. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is really funny seeing people calling DGT presentation amateur while being completely oblivious to the complete incompetence of Rossi's presentation! No one I know has said Rossi does good presentations. The two are unrelated. The fact that Rossi does bad presentation does not excuse bad presentations by DGT. Also, Rossi has never agreed to come to a conference, whereas the DGT people have come to them, and made video presentations. These presentations raised more questions than they answered. DGT agreed to come to the recent MIT symposium but they cancelled at the last minute, which is unprofessional. It's so full of holes that we can hardly exclude cheating from any of them. I disagree. I think that some of Rossi's tests were solid. I see no holes in the ELFORSK tests. No skeptic has published a credible critique of the ELFORSK test as far as I know. The only critiques I have seen are so bad they show that the skeptics do not have a leg to stand on. For me, at least DGT, this is mostly bad mouth by Jed, due his naivete in dealing with business. I have been accused of many things, but naivete is not among them. The business model described here by Axil Axil is that companies such as General Electric or Boeing have succeeded by filching small sums of money from contractors. That is not true. I have dealt with these companies and I am sure they pay their bills. I am quite sure Boeing would not be a profitable major corporation if their main source of revenue was to steal $1,400 at a time from people like me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Don't come with bullshit. Ideas cannot be stolen. Only properties can be. If anything was stolen it was Rossi's fault. 2014-04-08 12:19 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: When you steal an idea (or try to steal one) you don't go around publicly bragging about what you did later on. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Sharing and debating ideas is the lifeblood of science. This is doubly true for LENR. Is that not what CMNS and vortex is all about? I knew that a potassium salt was Rossi's secret sauce years ago from the context of what Rossi was saying. You cannot steal something that has been publically revealed, only confirm it. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Defkalion is a two-bit company with an ever changing mailing address and a web page that is down for weeks. They have never published a single credible report, or any real data. Their presentations are amateur... If they have something they are doing a lousy job demonstrating it. You forgot to mention that the CEO admitted to stealing Rossi's formula ! Fortunately for Rossi, apparently DGT is not accomplished in industrial espionage, which sadly was the main thing they had going for them. That too! That was hilarious. Not accomplished hardly describes it. When you steal an idea (or try to steal one) you don't go around publicly bragging about what you did later on. It is like one of these stories about people who steal cars, wreck them, and then upload YouTube videos bragging about it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Do not mistake an idea for a property. If an invention is described in a patent filling, it cannot be stolen even if public revealed. Now, it does not look like K is a secret sauce as per the patent, though, it does not describe how it is used. So, in any way, if DGT took any information from Rossi, now, it is pretty much a dead horse, since Rossi can hardly do anything about it. But K is not the secret sauce. 2014-04-08 12:42 GMT-03:00 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com: Sharing and debating ideas is the lifeblood of science. This is doubly true for LENR. Is that not what CMNS and vortex is all about? I knew that a potassium salt was Rossi's secret sauce years ago from the context of what Rossi was saying. You cannot steal something that has been publically revealed, only confirm it. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
No Jed, I am not worried. :) I just sympathise with you. I do believe your feelings as they are the only ones worth having. However, someone said it is a naive thing to be taken advantage of this way. I think that has some merit. (No, I do not label you naive). I do think that there are two ways of approaching any activity together with any other entity or person. Either you are optimistically and positively working under the auspice that the other party is fair and keep an eye on the response. Or you check everything and require guarantees before engaging in any type of co-operation. To take the chance of a new venture might look naive but I think that is the only way of saying yes to opportunities. I know very few people that want to work with some who needs 100% protection before committing. In my opinion one need to take the opportunity based on 'gut feeling' and then decide the next step based on experience. Being taken advantage is then part of business, not wanted but a price one can and must accept. BTW I think neither AR or DFK has proven much. I think AR has given good and open reasons in his many meetings with Mats Lewan. I find Mats'es opinion that AR is one hell of a con-artist if this is only a scam. Did DFK steal something? Who knows but that is no significance as it does not prove anything. I am waiting for someone presenting something solidly working and available to purchase. Stealing ideas does not work as it requires to steal the process that lead to the idea and that is very hard. In my opinion both DFK and AR wants. Perhaps they overstep now and then. May the best man win. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote: I feel sorryfor Jed being screwed of money. Not fair and I agree with Jed there is not worth the effort to get them back. Don't worry about it. It was nothing. Actually, it was worth the money. The fact that they did not pay, and then they went on to make ridiculous excuses for not paying, tells me a lot about the company. In a way, it tells me more than a visit or a close look at their video presentation would. They gave me proof that they cannot be trusted. As I said, they are either broke or they are deadbeats. Either way they are in trouble. This is like paying $1,400 to a credit rating company to find out about Defkalion. An credit rating evaluation usually costs less than that, but in this case I can be sure the evaluation is correct. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil wrote: ..A contractor tells a subcontractor what the terms of getting paid are in a specification that is agreed upon by both parties. If the subcontractor fails to meet that specification in the opinion of the contractor, then the subcontractor is not paid for the subpar work. Actually you have it backwards,Axil, at least under contract law in the United States. Contracts are to be interpreted by the person that did NOT write the contract. In a court of law, the subcontractor's opinion would hold up, provided he is telling the truth about his understanding at the time of the contract negotiation. This of course will be decided by a judge or a jury. It's often wise for a contractor to have the sub write the specifications and then to comment in way of clarification on parts of the contract that the contractor thinks are vague. This is important when it comes to design drawings where tolerances are important and material specifications can be too loose. Agreed upon independent testing is often warranted. Thus, independent third party inspectors or contract completion persons are important to assure a good outcome. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention A contractor tells a subcontractor what the terms of getting paid are in a specification that is agreed upon by both parties. If the subcontractor fails to meet that specification in the opinion of the contractor, then the subcontractor is not paid for the subpar work. Was your work for DGT up to its specification? Obviously, it was not in the opinion of DGT. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is really funny seeing people calling DGT presentation amateur while being completely oblivious to the complete incompetence of Rossi's presentation! No one I know has said Rossi does good presentations. The two are unrelated. The fact that Rossi does bad presentation does not excuse bad presentations by DGT. Also, Rossi has never agreed to come to a conference, whereas the DGT people have come to them, and made video presentations. These presentations raised more questions than they answered. DGT agreed to come to the recent MIT symposium but they cancelled at the last minute, which is unprofessional. It's so full of holes that we can hardly exclude cheating from any of them. I disagree. I think that some of Rossi's tests were solid. I see no holes in the ELFORSK tests. No skeptic has published a credible critique of the ELFORSK test as far as I know. The only critiques I have seen are so bad they show that the skeptics do not have a leg to stand on. For me, at least DGT, this is mostly bad mouth by Jed, due his naivete in dealing with business. I have been accused of many things, but naivete is not among them. The business model described here by Axil Axil is that companies such as General Electric or Boeing have succeeded by filching small sums of money from contractors. That is not true. I have dealt with these companies and I am sure they pay their bills. I am quite sure Boeing would not be a profitable major corporation if their main source of revenue was to steal $1,400 at a time from people like me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Again, I am strictly an amateur at theoretical solid state physics; I cannot attest to having an understanding. Since the energy reduction for the Millsian inverse Rydberg states is quantized, even though it cannot radiate, the extraction mechanism must be capable of withdrawing some large quanta - in the 50eV range (10x most chemical reactions). This is why you don't see ordinary chemical processes creating inverse Rydberg states. While all of the mechanisms you describe sound like possible evanescent couplings, I guess you have to ask yourself, which ones could possibly extract a 50eV quantum from the hydrogen and then where would it go? I think this is where Dr. Storms' linear hydroton structure would come into play. The hydroton could absorb the 50eV into its macro vibrational mode until some radiation mechanism dissipated it. Just to be fair, such quanta could also be extracted in something like Dr. Kim's magnetically trapped condensate of hydrogen atoms if the condensate absorbed the energy as a whole and divided the 50eV amongst the condensate atoms. Once divided, it is not clear how the condensate would rid itself of this energy, but many avenues are possible. The scenario of successive ratcheting down the energy of the hydron BEFORE it fuses is highly desirable because it answers the question of why there isn't a strong gamma emission leaking out when fusion occurs - the energy is withdrawn in small chunks BEFORE the fusion can happen and fusion can only happen with the very low energy hydron. Mills response to this, I would think, would be yes, but no fusion happens at the end. You just get the energy out from ratcheting the hydron into a hydrino. Bob On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Bob-- What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena? The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and maybe others unknown. Some of these may be controlled more or less by the local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be at any instant particular instant in time. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not? Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen. Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the correct energy level. Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills. Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case. It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states. I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the possibility does seem compelling. In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs. One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs. The hydroton configuration could provide the evanescent coupling needed to take the H to fractional levels. Bob Higgins On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.comwrote: Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 18http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTmethodofco.pdflast year. In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg matter but does not actually mention Rydberg. Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show identical effects. Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
The contract was under that of US, heh. 2014-04-08 13:35 GMT-03:00 Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com: Actually you have it backwards,Axil, at least under contract law in the United States. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel-- Ideas that have been documented on paper or other forms of communication, including audible communications between two people that are not otherwise documented, are often stolen by the invasion of privacy by the thief. Steeling ideas is a common problem for inventors. Insiders or industrial spies that take ideas and sell them to others or otherwise give them away are thieves in my mind. Bob - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: John Milstone Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Don't come with bullshit. Ideas cannot be stolen. Only properties can be. If anything was stolen it was Rossi's fault. 2014-04-08 12:19 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: When you steal an idea (or try to steal one) you don't go around publicly bragging about what you did later on. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil-- You assume Axil was saying what he thought was true, I worried about that comment. A salt might not be too good for the metal's integrity. Straight K might be better. He may also have intentionally miss informed the public and particularly his competitors. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Sharing and debating ideas is the lifeblood of science. This is doubly true for LENR. Is that not what CMNS and vortex is all about? I knew that a potassium salt was Rossi's secret sauce years ago from the context of what Rossi was saying. You cannot steal something that has been publically revealed, only confirm it. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Defkalion is a two-bit company with an ever changing mailing address and a web page that is down for weeks. They have never published a single credible report, or any real data. Their presentations are amateur... If they have something they are doing a lousy job demonstrating it. You forgot to mention that the CEO admitted to stealing Rossi's formula ! Fortunately for Rossi, apparently DGT is not accomplished in industrial espionage, which sadly was the main thing they had going for them. That too! That was hilarious. Not accomplished hardly describes it. When you steal an idea (or try to steal one) you don't go around publicly bragging about what you did later on. It is like one of these stories about people who steal cars, wreck them, and then upload YouTube videos bragging about it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
There was not espionage. There were 2 gropus that broke up. Everything was open. And, yes, that is in your mind. And, again, there is no theft ideas. You cannot make an idea a property. This is one of the reason for patents, that is, that people can protect their invention, but the idea can be reproduced by other means. This is the idea to stimulate competition. 2014-04-08 13:41 GMT-03:00 Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com: are thieves in my mind. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Bob-- If the fusion occurs, I would think you would have a large release of energy that would also have to be fractioned somehow since there there is not large kinetic energy involved in the fusion. This is why I think Mills does not profess fusion as being involved. However, I have always imagined a spin couple or spin orbit force coupling that absorbs energy in small amounts without much kinetic energy of reaction products. I also think Dr. Kim's BEC idea may hold up. Your question of how the BEC rids itself of the excess energy is a good one. Possibly via the magnetic field and its interaction with the magnetic fields of nearby particles outside the BEC. Bob - Original Message - From: Bob Higgins To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Bob Higgins Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not? Again, I am strictly an amateur at theoretical solid state physics; I cannot attest to having an understanding. Since the energy reduction for the Millsian inverse Rydberg states is quantized, even though it cannot radiate, the extraction mechanism must be capable of withdrawing some large quanta - in the 50eV range (10x most chemical reactions). This is why you don't see ordinary chemical processes creating inverse Rydberg states. While all of the mechanisms you describe sound like possible evanescent couplings, I guess you have to ask yourself, which ones could possibly extract a 50eV quantum from the hydrogen and then where would it go? I think this is where Dr. Storms' linear hydroton structure would come into play. The hydroton could absorb the 50eV into its macro vibrational mode until some radiation mechanism dissipated it. Just to be fair, such quanta could also be extracted in something like Dr. Kim's magnetically trapped condensate of hydrogen atoms if the condensate absorbed the energy as a whole and divided the 50eV amongst the condensate atoms. Once divided, it is not clear how the condensate would rid itself of this energy, but many avenues are possible. The scenario of successive ratcheting down the energy of the hydron BEFORE it fuses is highly desirable because it answers the question of why there isn't a strong gamma emission leaking out when fusion occurs - the energy is withdrawn in small chunks BEFORE the fusion can happen and fusion can only happen with the very low energy hydron. Mills response to this, I would think, would be yes, but no fusion happens at the end. You just get the energy out from ratcheting the hydron into a hydrino. Bob On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Bob-- What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena? The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and maybe others unknown. Some of these may be controlled more or less by the local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be at any instant particular instant in time. Bob - Original Message - From: Bob Higgins To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not? Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen. Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the correct energy level. Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills. Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case. It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states. I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the possibility does seem compelling. In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs. One
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
I meant Rossi instead of Axil in the first sentence of my last comment. - Original Message - From: Bob Cook To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Axil-- You assume Axil was saying what he thought was true, I worried about that comment. A salt might not be too good for the metal's integrity. Straight K might be better. He may also have intentionally miss informed the public and particularly his competitors. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Sharing and debating ideas is the lifeblood of science. This is doubly true for LENR. Is that not what CMNS and vortex is all about? I knew that a potassium salt was Rossi's secret sauce years ago from the context of what Rossi was saying. You cannot steal something that has been publically revealed, only confirm it. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Defkalion is a two-bit company with an ever changing mailing address and a web page that is down for weeks. They have never published a single credible report, or any real data. Their presentations are amateur... If they have something they are doing a lousy job demonstrating it. You forgot to mention that the CEO admitted to stealing Rossi's formula ! Fortunately for Rossi, apparently DGT is not accomplished in industrial espionage, which sadly was the main thing they had going for them. That too! That was hilarious. Not accomplished hardly describes it. When you steal an idea (or try to steal one) you don't go around publicly bragging about what you did later on. It is like one of these stories about people who steal cars, wreck them, and then upload YouTube videos bragging about it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Was your work for DGT up to its specification? Obviously, it was not in the opinion of DGT. Hadjichristos publicly promised to pay, both here and at CMNS. It was for an airline ticket, never used. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: And, again, there is no theft ideas. You cannot make an idea a property. Oh yes you can! Please learn about intellectual property, trade secrets and patents. There are lawsuits for hundreds of millions of dollars over these things, all the time. You are completely wrong about this. Please do your homework before commenting. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Sure! When I am fired from my job, since I work with intellectual property, I will surely take your advice! 2014-04-08 14:15 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: And, again, there is no theft ideas. You cannot make an idea a property. Oh yes you can! Please learn about intellectual property, trade secrets and patents. There are lawsuits for hundreds of millions of dollars over these things, all the time. You are completely wrong about this. Please do your homework before commenting. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
This interpretation does not make sense to me yet. First, the details of the agreement must be written down as a joint effort of both parties. To begin with, the contractor knows exactly what work he wants to preform. How can the subcontractor know the details of those requirements? Is that not putting the cart before the horse? The subcontractor adds his inputs to the agreement to educate the contractor about the work to be performed once the subcontractor understands what is to be done. The key to subcontracting is to keep the contractor happy. In fact, the subcontractor spends time and money for years to lock in the contractor. After this lock in, the subcontractor begins to make money. How can the subcontractor know if the needs of the contractor are met? In detail, how did Jed know that the needs of DGT were met? Did Jed care if the needs of DGT were met? Was Jed concerned if DGT was happy with his work? Oftentimes, a contractor will require that the subcontractor perform additional work to make the contractor happy. Did DGT require Jed to perform additional work to meet the expectations of DGT? Did Jed refuse? Oftentimes, the contractor deems the subcontractor as incapable of preforming the required work after the deal has been signed. Is this what happen to Jed? This give and take happens in business every day in the quest to keep the customer happy. The subcontractor must do his best to make the contractor happy if they are to do business on a long term basis. The subcontractor should allocate time and money to keeping the contractor happy. For sure, going to court to settle a dispute about the happiness of the customer does not lead to a happy working relationship between these two parties. Going to court is not good business. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil wrote: ..A contractor tells a subcontractor what the terms of getting paid are in a specification that is agreed upon by both parties. If the subcontractor fails to meet that specification in the opinion of the contractor, then the subcontractor is not paid for the subpar work. Actually you have it backwards,Axil, at least under contract law in the United States. Contracts are to be interpreted by the person that did NOT write the contract. In a court of law, the subcontractor's opinion would hold up, provided he is telling the truth about his understanding at the time of the contract negotiation. This of course will be decided by a judge or a jury. It's often wise for a contractor to have the sub write the specifications and then to comment in way of clarification on parts of the contract that the contractor thinks are vague. This is important when it comes to design drawings where tolerances are important and material specifications can be too loose. Agreed upon independent testing is often warranted. Thus, independent third party inspectors or contract completion persons are important to assure a good outcome. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:20 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention A contractor tells a subcontractor what the terms of getting paid are in a specification that is agreed upon by both parties. If the subcontractor fails to meet that specification in the opinion of the contractor, then the subcontractor is not paid for the subpar work. Was your work for DGT up to its specification? Obviously, it was not in the opinion of DGT. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is really funny seeing people calling DGT presentation amateur while being completely oblivious to the complete incompetence of Rossi's presentation! No one I know has said Rossi does good presentations. The two are unrelated. The fact that Rossi does bad presentation does not excuse bad presentations by DGT. Also, Rossi has never agreed to come to a conference, whereas the DGT people have come to them, and made video presentations. These presentations raised more questions than they answered. DGT agreed to come to the recent MIT symposium but they cancelled at the last minute, which is unprofessional. It's so full of holes that we can hardly exclude cheating from any of them. I disagree. I think that some of Rossi's tests were solid. I see no holes in the ELFORSK tests. No skeptic has published a credible critique of the ELFORSK test as far as I know. The only critiques I have seen are so bad they show that the skeptics do not have a leg to stand on. For me, at least DGT, this is mostly bad mouth by Jed, due his naivete in dealing with business. I have been accused of many things, but naivete is not among them. The business model described here by Axil Axil is that companies such as General Electric or Boeing
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: How can the subcontractor know if the needs of the contractor are met? In detail, how did Jed know that the needs of DGT were met? Did Jed care if the needs of DGT were met? Was Jed concerned if DGT was happy with his work? There was no work. I bought a non-refundable ticket and never went. They agreed to pay for it. They publicly stated that they agreed to pay for it, right here and at CMNS. They repeatedly promised to pay for it. But, they never did. No one disputes this is what happened. It has nothing to do with the needs of the contractor or anything like that. You can review old messages from Hadjichristos and confirm all of this. Stop speculating about contracts and the needs of contractors. That is completely irrelevant. I have described this many times. If you will not take the trouble read my messages past and present, please drop the subject. You are only confusing the issue. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: You shouldn't have bought your own ticket at the beginning of the relationship. That is a bad move on your part. I was planning to pay for the whole trip. I normally never accept money from organizations I am visiting. They only agreed to pay because they repeatedly had to put off the visit, and they finally had to cancel. The problems were at their end, so they agreed to pay. Stop speculating about this. You do not know what you are talking about. There is only one relevant fact, and no one disputes it: They publicly promised to pay. They never did pay. End of story. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Bob, you are probably right, this likely is pointing at inverse Rydberg matter. Rob. Op dinsdag 8 april 2014 heeft Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Good, More details. They say that the devil is in the details. It could be that DGT failed to honor their offer to refund your costs as being due to your negative proclamations about their technical and financial stability of their company. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Such negative feelings of humiliation and rejection are human and natural. This reaction is not good phycology or behavior and is also a bad business move on your part. Also, some may not feel it wise to buckle under the onslaught of negativism by rewarding it with capitulation. Such capitulation to recrimination will be taken as a sign of weakness throughout the business world. Furthermore, if your business strategy is to front expenses to maintain the appearance of impartiality and independence, your loss might well be absorbed as a self funded business expense; to be expected from time to time in the course of doing business. After all, you made the business mistake of not protecting yourself by buying a non refundable ticket. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: You shouldn't have bought your own ticket at the beginning of the relationship. That is a bad move on your part. I was planning to pay for the whole trip. I normally never accept money from organizations I am visiting. They only agreed to pay because they repeatedly had to put off the visit, and they finally had to cancel. The problems were at their end, so they agreed to pay. Stop speculating about this. You do not know what you are talking about. There is only one relevant fact, and no one disputes it: They publicly promised to pay. They never did pay. End of story. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
In my opinion, an inverse Rydberg atom can not exist in isolation. Such inversion may only happen in an excited and/or ionized crystal formation of hydrogen. How the group motion of the elections and protons in such an arrogation in and among each other is not clear; that is, how the details of the compression of protons happen. What the experimental indications for this form of compressed hydrogen that backs items 4 and 5 in the referenced paper are not stated in that paper. This is a flaw in the paper. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.comwrote: Bob, you are probably right, this likely is pointing at inverse Rydberg matter. Rob. Op dinsdag 8 april 2014 heeft Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: Keep in mind that Rydberg matter does not normally describe shrunken hydrogen. Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy state below the normally accepted ground state. This has been variously described as inverse Rydberg and fractional Rydberg or hydrino (Mills) states that are all below ground level. Mills describes multiple fractional states below ground level. There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Good, More details. They say that the devil is in the details. It could be that DGT failed to honor their offer to refund your costs as being due to your negative proclamations about their technical and financial stability of their company. No, it couldn't be. I said NOTHING about them for about a year after they promised to pay. I said nothing even thought it was clear to me they were not going to pay. I figured it was unimportant. As I said here after about a year, small start up companies are often broke, so no big deal. Furthermore, as I have pointed out several times, they publicly promised to pay. Right here they did. Why would they do that if they were upset with me? That makes no sense. They would disavow the debt. Again you are speculating about something you know nothing about. You are making unfounded statements, and you are ignoring statements made by the people from Defkalion here and elsewhere. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Such negative feelings of humiliation and rejection are human and natural. That's absurd. Do you think I feel humiliated and rejected because some clown owes me a grand?!? Lots of people owe me money. I learned 40 years ago to cut 'em off and forget about them. It doesn't matter. Furthermore, if your business strategy is to front expenses to maintain the appearance of impartiality and independence . . . This is not a business strategy. I am not engaged in business here. After all, you made the business mistake of not protecting yourself by buying a non refundable ticket. The non-refundable ones are cheaper. Heck, this one would have been a lot cheaper if they hadn't cancelled and rescheduled so many times. The original ticket was something like $800 as I recall. If they had cancelled completely the first time I would have eaten the $800 and never said a word about it. (Eaten in American business jargon means I would have written off the expense.) - Jed
[Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
Hi all, and especially jed, Is there any documents or story detailing the Oriani paper peer-review, the blocking by Science I just found an older paper http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/368TGP_oriani.pdf but it seems linked to Spawar work...
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Oftentimes, even in the richest companies, when their travel budget is exceeded, nobody travels anywhere because there is no more money allocated for that purpose. DGT sounds like they were going through a rough patch in their development; this is to be expected to happen. Yes, it is best to forgive and forget. It is so painful to see such in fighting between the giants of LENR when the very future of LENR hangs in the balance at this critical juncture. Can't we all walk this noble road together, side by side? The enemies of LENR will be very deep and strong, a solid front is our best defense against them. It is said that a house divided among itself cannot stand. I myself always defend Mills and Rossi hammer and tong to these infidels even if they do not deserve such fine treatment. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Good, More details. They say that the devil is in the details. It could be that DGT failed to honor their offer to refund your costs as being due to your negative proclamations about their technical and financial stability of their company. No, it couldn't be. I said NOTHING about them for about a year after they promised to pay. I said nothing even thought it was clear to me they were not going to pay. I figured it was unimportant. As I said here after about a year, small start up companies are often broke, so no big deal. Furthermore, as I have pointed out several times, they publicly promised to pay. Right here they did. Why would they do that if they were upset with me? That makes no sense. They would disavow the debt. Again you are speculating about something you know nothing about. You are making unfounded statements, and you are ignoring statements made by the people from Defkalion here and elsewhere. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Such negative feelings of humiliation and rejection are human and natural. That's absurd. Do you think I feel humiliated and rejected because some clown owes me a grand?!? Lots of people owe me money. I learned 40 years ago to cut 'em off and forget about them. It doesn't matter. Furthermore, if your business strategy is to front expenses to maintain the appearance of impartiality and independence . . . This is not a business strategy. I am not engaged in business here. After all, you made the business mistake of not protecting yourself by buying a non refundable ticket. The non-refundable ones are cheaper. Heck, this one would have been a lot cheaper if they hadn't cancelled and rescheduled so many times. The original ticket was something like $800 as I recall. If they had cancelled completely the first time I would have eaten the $800 and never said a word about it. (Eaten in American business jargon means I would have written off the expense.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Oftentimes, even in the richest companies, when their travel budget is exceeded, nobody travels anywhere because there is no more money allocated for that purpose. For two years? No way. They have traveled extensively during these two years. Also, if that were the case, they would have told me, instead of making up ridiculous excuses such as we are trying to find a way to make the expense charitable so that it will be tax deductible. All business expenses are tax deductible! It is so painful to see such in fighting between the giants of LENR . . . Defkalion is not a giant. Okay, maybe they are if they actually have something, but I think that is highly unlikely. If they had something they would have released a report years ago. Many people have visited them. Everyone I know who has been there says the experiments are so badly done there is no way to tell whether the results are real or not. Starting years ago they said they would publish a report real soon now written by an independent expert proving their claims. They have not done that. They never will do that. You should face facts: from every indication these people are deadbeats and fakers. The enemies of LENR will be very deep and strong, a solid front is our best defense against them. A solid front with clowns like this? No way! We don't need any more nitwits. We have plenty already. Rossi was 100% right about them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Axil, Sometimes you must trust the companies with which you do business. Why work with some group that you think might cheat you? I suspect that most of the folks on this list have been on the losing end of a contract before. Jed acted in good faith and they failed to reciprocate. That is not the way to improve the good will of your company. Do you think that Jed will offer future assistance without up front payment plus money for that ticket? Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Good, More details. They say that the devil is in the details. It could be that DGT failed to honor their offer to refund your costs as being due to your negative proclamations about their technical and financial stability of their company. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Such negative feelings of humiliation and rejection are human and natural. This reaction is not good phycology or behavior and is also a bad business move on your part. Also, some may not feel it wise to buckle under the onslaught of negativism by rewarding it with capitulation. Such capitulation to recrimination will be taken as a sign of weakness throughout the business world. Furthermore, if your business strategy is to front expenses to maintain the appearance of impartiality and independence, your loss might well be absorbed as a self funded business expense; to be expected from time to time in the course of doing business. After all, you made the business mistake of not protecting yourself by buying a non refundable ticket. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Youshouldn't have bought your own ticket at the beginning of therelationship. That is a bad move on your part. I was planning to pay for the whole trip. I normally never accept money from organizations I am visiting. They only agreed to pay because they repeatedly had to put off the visit, and they finally had to cancel. The problems were at their end, so they agreed to pay. Stop speculating about this. You do not know what you are talking about. There is only one relevant fact, and no one disputes it: They publicly promised to pay. They never did pay. End of story. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Dave and Axil- I tend to agree with you Dave. I doubt I would do business with DGT in the future based on Jed history with them, as well as for other reasons soon to be made concrete. Bob - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Axil, Sometimes you must trust the companies with which you do business. Why work with some group that you think might cheat you? I suspect that most of the folks on this list have been on the losing end of a contract before. Jed acted in good faith and they failed to reciprocate. That is not the way to improve the good will of your company. Do you think that Jed will offer future assistance without up front payment plus money for that ticket? Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention Good, More details. They say that the devil is in the details. It could be that DGT failed to honor their offer to refund your costs as being due to your negative proclamations about their technical and financial stability of their company. They say that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Such negative feelings of humiliation and rejection are human and natural. This reaction is not good phycology or behavior and is also a bad business move on your part. Also, some may not feel it wise to buckle under the onslaught of negativism by rewarding it with capitulation. Such capitulation to recrimination will be taken as a sign of weakness throughout the business world. Furthermore, if your business strategy is to front expenses to maintain the appearance of impartiality and independence, your loss might well be absorbed as a self funded business expense; to be expected from time to time in the course of doing business. After all, you made the business mistake of not protecting yourself by buying a non refundable ticket. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: You shouldn't have bought your own ticket at the beginning of the relationship. That is a bad move on your part. I was planning to pay for the whole trip. I normally never accept money from organizations I am visiting. They only agreed to pay because they repeatedly had to put off the visit, and they finally had to cancel. The problems were at their end, so they agreed to pay. Stop speculating about this. You do not know what you are talking about. There is only one relevant fact, and no one disputes it: They publicly promised to pay. They never did pay. End of story. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
The blocking was not by Science but by Nature and more specifically by the US editor of Nature to whom the hot potato was passed by the British editor. It is discussed in Beaudette's Excess Heat but as far as I know, the only documentation is private. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, and especially jed, Is there any documents or story detailing the Oriani paper peer-review, the blocking by Science I just found an older paper http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/368TGP_oriani.pdf but it seems linked to Spawar work...
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
The 2002 edition of Beaudette's Excess Heat is now available on line in its entirety with the apparent permission of the author: http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:33 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The blocking was not by Science but by Nature and more specifically by the US editor of Nature to whom the hot potato was passed by the British editor. It is discussed in Beaudette's Excess Heat but as far as I know, the only documentation is private. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote: Hi all, and especially jed, Is there any documents or story detailing the Oriani paper peer-review, the blocking by Science I just found an older paper http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/368TGP_oriani.pdf but it seems linked to Spawar work...
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Revert the question? Why should DGT work with someone that might cheat them? They did not ask for help. Jed was too intrusive for their taste. 2014-04-08 18:49 GMT-03:00 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: Axil, Sometimes you must trust the companies with which you do business. Why work with some group that you think might cheat you? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
I agree with Bob and I think Daniel are talking about something else. Maybe DGT were hesitant how to respond to Jed, nobody but DGT knows. They are still the only failing party with the information we have. If it is as you say Daniel then they should have said no from the beginning. Giving answers that are unclear and hoping someone else will foot the bill was to create the situation. I think they deserve to not be trusted from a business point of view. It sounds to me they could do with a better leadership. It is easy to obtain a poor rating business wise. I lifted for example an eye when I saw that Papandreous and other politicians were involved from the beginning. I already had previos experience that made them suspicious. That could be dead wrong and I am not saying my reasons has any value for third party. Just shows how easy you get a stamp of Not Trustworthy.. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Revert the question? Why should DGT work with someone that might cheat them? They did not ask for help. Jed was too intrusive for their taste. 2014-04-08 18:49 GMT-03:00 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: Axil, Sometimes you must trust the companies with which you do business. Why work with some group that you think might cheat you? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Unlike Rossi, the lunatic, right, huh! 2014-04-08 21:05 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com: . I think they deserve to not be trusted from a business point of view. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Why should DGT work with someone that might cheat them? They did not ask for help. They sure as heck did ask for help, from me and from many others. Then they kept putting us off, alienating people, and running up large debts which they have not paid. Much more then the owe me. They have a talent for making enemies. Jed was too intrusive for their taste. How the hell do you know this? You are wrong. They told me to come several times and then finally cancelled. If it was because I was intrusive, why would they offer to pay for the unused ticket? You should stop speculating about people and events you know nothing about. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The 2002 edition of Beaudette's Excess Heat is now available on line in its entirety with the apparent permission of the author: I doubt that is with his permission. It was originally uploaded by me, with his permission, but he rescinded permission. He said he was coming out with electronic edition. He never did as far as I know. I wish he would. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
This looks like a very old copy of LENR-CANR.org. They probably do not know that Charles asked me to withdraw that book. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
OK, I'll remove the link from my Facebook page. That is the only other place I posted it. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: This looks like a very old copy of LENR-CANR.org. They probably do not know that Charles asked me to withdraw that book. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:About Oriani strange peer-review not published... story and documents ?
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll remove the link from my Facebook page. That is the only other place I posted it. I told Charles, and I will tell the university. Maybe he will relent. I will let you know. Things on the Internet tend to live forever. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
You cannot prove me you are not lying. You showed a ticket. So what? Other then that it's just words, it's your version. So, It's them against you, from my point of view, to convince me. Of course, It's very likely you won't tell who they alienated, to keep their safety. I wouldn't. So, basically, I don't have any reason to believe you or DGT. But I choose DGT. Why? You keep putting them against Rossi, who is a lunatic who cannot even issue a decent patent. DGT, is an enigma, as far as it is publicly known, except that their only test surpasses in quality by far anything Rossi did on live, with COP20. To doubt that, objectively, it is like using 2 weights to overcome your frustration 2014-04-08 21:35 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: You should stop speculating about people and events you know nothing about. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena? I have heard that Mills's claim is that it is Forster resonance energy transfer (FRET) [1]. Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6rster_resonance_energy_transfer
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.comwrote: One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs. I think you noted elsewhere that Mills's claim does not involve fusion. Some people on this list speculate that fusion might occur, however, due to the decrease in the size of the hydrino. I believe this is handled probabilistically -- the smaller the hydrino, the likelier fusion is to occur. (I personally see little promise in Mills's theory, although I am not in a position to write it off.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
Mills may not ever see fusion in his devices - even if his theory is correct, and even if he is creating hydrinos. His means of extracting the energy to get hydrinos probably never takes them to the lowest level (1/137). Even though he calculates such a level is possible, he never gets that deep. So with his 1/4 hydrinos, he may never see any significant fusion occur because they aren't yet small enough. I am suggesting that the LENR structures may be capable of ratcheting down the hydrino to a much lower level - maybe as far as 1/137. Once it get there, it stays there, and then when an adjacent H in the linear hydroton oscillator gets ratcheted down to 1/137, they fuse. Maybe sometimes the H*2 (or an H*D* or an D*2 or a H*T* or an D*T* or a T*2) molecule (perhaps one less likely to fuse) pops off and enters a Ni atom to cause a transmutation. I am just adding the hydrino states terminology onto what Dr. Storms has already proposed for his hydroton LENR theory. What he has described seems to be hydrino states as the hydroton whittles the energy out of the H - but he doesn't uses the term hydrino. I believe that Dr. Storms does not dismiss the possibility of hydrino states. I look forward to reading his full theory when he publishes it. Bob On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.comwrote: One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs. I think you noted elsewhere that Mills's claim does not involve fusion. Some people on this list speculate that fusion might occur, however, due to the decrease in the size of the hydrino. I believe this is handled probabilistically -- the smaller the hydrino, the likelier fusion is to occur. (I personally see little promise in Mills's theory, although I am not in a position to write it off.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: You cannot prove me you are not lying. You showed a ticket. So what? Hadjichristos himself said that they owe me the money! He said it right here, and at CMNS. He said it repeatedly. If you don't believe me, and you don't believe him, who do you believe?!? Why would he lie about this? Why would he want you to think he owes me money, if he doesn't really? You need to get a grip. What you are saying makes no sense. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: DGT, is an enigma, as far as it is publicly known, except that their only test surpasses in quality by far anything Rossi did on live, with COP20. Rossi's live tests have not been very good, but DGT's tests were worse. Even Hadjichristos eventually admitted that the flow rate was not measured properly. The results are meaningless. The tests done by ELFORSK were better than Rossi's and far better than DGT's. You are the first person I have heard from who thinks DGT has technical credibility. They claimed they have glowing reviews from the experts who visited them. The experts were all under NDA but some of them have told me a little. They were unimpressed. They said the tests proved nothing. I assume that is why DGT never published a review. Maybe DGT improved their work since the ICCF video. I wouldn't know. They have never published a technical paper, just a lot public relations blather. It is difficult to judge from a video alone. As far as I can tell they have nothing. I cannot imagine why you think they have done a good job. I think it is up to the group doing the experiment to make the case, with a properly written paper. Since DGT has never published a paper, that means they do not want to make the case. If they have something, I guess they do not want people to know about it, or believe it. That is their prerogative. But neither you nor they should be upset when I don't believe them. They have given me NO EVIDENCE. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I said you were lying, specially concerning people being alienated. If you find the quote, I won't bother looking for it, you will see he is not owing you any money. Your will to not understand him another other reason for not believing you. 2014-04-08 23:59 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Why would he lie about this? Why would he want you to think he owes me money, if he doesn't really? - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
See, you cannot prove this. Either way, you are empty handed. 2014-04-09 0:13 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: but some of them have told me a little. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: See, you cannot prove this. Either way, you are empty handed. 2014-04-09 0:13 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: but some of them have told me a little. They told me it was a bunch of crap. It was meaningless, and the trip was a waste of time. That is only a little, but what more did they need to say? You saw the video. You probably saw Hadjichristos' message saying the flow rate was not measured properly. So you have it from the man himself that the demonstration was useless. Again, if you do not believe him, and you don't believe me, who do you believe? What on earth makes you think these people are competent? They have done nothing, shown nothing, and published nothing. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
This is pure lie. As for evidence, I take judgment from Mats Lewan, which I saw That's a COP20. Rossi could never show anything that's more than COP4 and that's feels like making a stone. ELFORSK? Was it peer reviewed? Was it reproduced? Pretty much as much as Defkalion's, at least, what was publicly shown. 2014-04-09 0:13 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: hey have never published a technical paper, just a lot public relations blather. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
They, who? Thor? Zeus? The Holy Smokes? Useless, no! He was being humble. It was useless since he underestimated the COP. The actual was over 20. Unlike Rossi, who has to make a ruckus to have anything above COP 2! 2014-04-09 0:20 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: They told me it was a bunch of crap. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is pure lie. As for evidence, I take judgment from Mats Lewan, which I saw That's a COP20. Hadjichristos said the flow rate was not measured properly. There is no telling what it was, or whether there was excess heat. Experts who went there for weeks saw NOTHING. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Yes. He downlplayed the COP, it was actually higher. The experts doesn't exist. It's your imagination. 2014-04-09 0:26 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Hadjichristos said the flow rate was not measured properly. There is no telling what it was, or whether there was excess heat. Experts who went there for weeks saw NOTHING. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: They, who? Thor? Zeus? The Holy Smokes? Look, if you think they have actual positive results, you should ask Hadjichristos to send you reports showing these results. Ask him the names of the experts who went there. I know who they are. If you want to know, you should ask him. It is his data. He has the data under NDA -- I assume because the data proves he has nothing. If he wants to show you he is right, let him do it. It is not up to me to make his case for him. Why are you even talking to me about it? Go to the source. He can send me a report anytime from one of the experts who visited, and I will upload it to LENR-CANR.org. He knows that. Nothing is stopping him from making his case, and proving he is right. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. He downlplayed the COP, it was actually higher. It was meaningless. The calorimetry did not work. The experts doesn't exist. It's your imagination. So, no one actually visited? There were no photos uploaded, some with Melich's name on them? The people at DGC say they had visitors. You don't believe them, and you don't believe me either. You don't seem to believe anyone! Why would I lie about this? And if DGC has positive reports, why haven't they shared them with anyone? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Because you are putting a tantrum over your poor managed $1400. As for the others, you are dodging my actual question. Who was alienated? Who told you it was trash in the live review? You won't say. Neither will Yiannis, since they are on NDA. But as I told you the calorimetry downplayed the output. That was clear in the video and you are not being honest about that or your are just ignoring that for your convenience And, I was clear, I believe more in Yiannis. More than Rossi or you. 2014-04-09 0:35 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: they had visitors. You don't believe them, and you don't believe me either. You don't seem to believe anyone! Why would I lie about this? And if DGC has positive reports, why haven't they shared them with anyone? - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
I think that the limitation on COP that leads to your skepticism is simply a materials issue. For the Ni/H reactor; both Rossi and DGT, if the reactor temperature gets beyond a certain safe limit, it will take off and melt down. Ridding the razor back of criticality is not conducive to high performance. Fusion is hard on materials. In my opinion. if more fusion friendly refractory type materials are used in the structure of these Ni/H reactors, their performance in terms of COP will increase to such a high level that reactor credibility born on the wings of high COP will be self evident. Many improvements in terms of reactor hardening can be made to these reactors, now that we know this LENR reaction is real. The poor performance of the past need not be a permanent albatross to be forever hung around the necks of DGT, Rossi, and others. For all interested in LENR, be patent and positive. Rome was not built in a day. On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. He downlplayed the COP, it was actually higher. It was meaningless. The calorimetry did not work. The experts doesn't exist. It's your imagination. So, no one actually visited? There were no photos uploaded, some with Melich's name on them? The people at DGC say they had visitors. You don't believe them, and you don't believe me either. You don't seem to believe anyone! Why would I lie about this? And if DGC has positive reports, why haven't they shared them with anyone? - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Because you are putting a tantrum over your poor managed $1400. Daniel, it seems to me that if you feel justified in personally interpreting not only Mr. Rothwell's emotional psyche but his personal motivations for all to ponder I think it would be wise to prepare yourself for the contingency of having your own emotional psyche and personal motivations publicly interpreted by others no less competent... experts who know even less about you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson svjart.orionworks.com
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan book : An Impossible Invention
Falling squarely into my military industrial paranoid wheelhouse, Mats Lewan said: Then I have this curious story about the CIA supposedly watching Defkalion. That came from a source which I considered very trustworthy, but of course I couldn't confirm that. Of course, if this technology is real, it's so revolutionary I would expect intelligence from several countries to be interested, and to try to follow it in secret. Any more info on this to confirm or deny? More at: http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/04/06/interview-with-mats-lewan-author-of-an-impossible-invention-about-rossi-and-the-e-cat/ On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Charter - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Because you are putting a tantrum over your poor managed $1400. Daniel, it seems to me that if you feel justified in personally interpreting not only Mr. Rothwell's emotional psyche but his personal motivations for all to ponder I think it would be wise to prepare yourself for the contingency of having your own emotional psyche and personal motivations publicly interpreted by others no less competent... experts who know even less about you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson svjart.orionworks.com
