Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Bob Higgins]

Mills may not ever see fusion in his devices - even if his theory is
correct, and even if he is creating hydrinos.  His means of extracting the
energy to get hydrinos probably never takes them to the lowest level
(1/137).  Even though he calculates such a level is possible, he never gets
that deep.  So with his 1/4 hydrinos, he may never see any significant
fusion occur because they aren't yet small enough.  I am suggesting that
the LENR structures may be capable of ratcheting down the hydrino to a much
lower level - maybe as far as 1/137.  Once it get there, it stays there,
and then when an adjacent H in the linear hydroton oscillator gets
ratcheted down to 1/137, they fuse.  Maybe sometimes the H*2 (or an H*D* or
an D*2 or a H*T* or an D*T* or a T*2) molecule (perhaps one less likely to
fuse) pops off and enters a Ni atom to cause a transmutation. I am just
adding the hydrino states terminology onto what Dr. Storms has already
proposed for his hydroton LENR theory.  What he has described seems to be
hydrino states as the hydroton whittles the energy out of the H - but he
doesn't uses the term hydrino.  I believe that Dr. Storms does not dismiss
the possibility of hydrino states.  I look forward to reading his full
theory when he publishes it.

Bob


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Bob Higgins wrote:
>
> One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration
>> may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and
>> when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs.
>>
>
> I think you noted elsewhere that Mills's claim does not involve fusion.
>  Some people on this list speculate that fusion might occur, however, due
> to the decrease in the size of the hydrino.  I believe this is handled
> probabilistically -- the smaller the hydrino, the likelier fusion is to
> occur.  (I personally see little promise in Mills's theory, although I am
> not in a position to write it off.)
>
> Eric
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Bob Higgins wrote:

One way to successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration
> may be the progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and
> when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs.
>

I think you noted elsewhere that Mills's claim does not involve fusion.
 Some people on this list speculate that fusion might occur, however, due
to the decrease in the size of the hydrino.  I believe this is handled
probabilistically -- the smaller the hydrino, the likelier fusion is to
occur.  (I personally see little promise in Mills's theory, although I am
not in a position to write it off.)

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Bob Cook  wrote:

 What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in
> the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena?
>

I have heard that Mills's claim is that it is Forster resonance energy
transfer (FRET) [1].

Eric


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6rster_resonance_energy_transfer

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Axil Axil]

In my opinion, an inverse Rydberg atom can not  exist in isolation. Such
inversion may only happen in an excited and/or ionized crystal formation of
hydrogen. How the group motion of the elections and protons in such an
arrogation in and among each other is not clear; that is, how the details
of the compression of protons happen.

What the experimental indications for this form of compressed hydrogen that
backs  items 4 and 5 in the referenced paper are not stated in that paper.
This is a flaw in the paper.


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Teslaalset wrote:

> Bob, you are probably right, this likely is pointing at inverse Rydberg
> matter.
>
> Rob.
>
> Op dinsdag 8 april 2014 heeft Bob Higgins  het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken"
>> hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an
>> energy state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been
>> variously described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or
>> "hydrino" (Mills) states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes
>> multiple fractional states below ground level.  There is an older reference
>> to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Roarty, Francis X]

I would go with inverse Rydberg or "relativistic hydrogen" and gravitational 
coupling keeping in mind that gravitational at the nanoscale is more like 
segregation of virtual particle density related to geometry and that 
relativistic doesn't have to mean near C spatial displacement of an 
object..just like an object at the bottom of a gravity well can have equivalent 
acceleration the geometrically suppressed hydrogen gas can have equivalent 
negative acceleration at the top of a warp [suppression zone] relative to the 
macro world isotropy we consider our baseline.
Fran

From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:03 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

Bob--

What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the 
evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena?

The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin 
orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and 
maybe others unknown.  Some of these may be controlled more or less by the 
local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as 
exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be 
at any instant particular instant in time.

Bob
- Original Message -
From: Bob Higgins<mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken" 
hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy 
state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been variously 
described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or "hydrino" (Mills) 
states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes multiple fractional 
states below ground level.  There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level 
or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.

Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg 
states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the 
correct energy level.  Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal 
ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the 
atom according to Mills.  Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states 
has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case.  It may turn 
out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states.

I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken 
states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the 
possibility does seem compelling.  In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is 
formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in 
the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to 
be released when the fusion occurs.  One way to successively remove the energy 
in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever 
more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion 
occurs.  The hydroton configuration could provide the evanescent coupling 
needed to take the H to fractional levels.

Bob Higgins

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset 
mailto:robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by Yoshino 
made me look at his work presented at ICCF 
18<http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTmethodofco.pdf> last year.
In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg matter 
but does not actually mention Rydberg.
Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size and in 
bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show identical 
effects.

Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that Rydberg 
atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons.

Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Teslaalset]

Bob, you are probably right, this likely is pointing at inverse Rydberg
matter.

Rob.

Op dinsdag 8 april 2014 heeft Bob Higgins  het
volgende geschreven:

> Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken"
> hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an
> energy state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been
> variously described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or
> "hydrino" (Mills) states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes
> multiple fractional states below ground level.  There is an older reference
> to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Bob Cook]

Bob--

If the fusion occurs, I would think you would have a large release of energy 
that would also have to be fractioned somehow since there there is not large 
kinetic energy involved in the fusion.  This is why I think Mills does not 
profess fusion as being involved.  

However, I have always imagined a spin couple or spin orbit force coupling that 
absorbs energy in small amounts without much kinetic energy of reaction 
products.  

I also think Dr. Kim's BEC idea may hold up.  Your question of how the BEC rids 
itself of the excess energy is a good one.  Possibly via the magnetic field and 
its interaction with the magnetic fields of  nearby particles outside the BEC.  

Bob
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Higgins 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Cc: Bob Higgins 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 9:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?


  Again, I am strictly an amateur at theoretical solid state physics; I cannot 
attest to having an "understanding".   


  Since the energy reduction for the Millsian inverse Rydberg states is 
quantized, even though it cannot radiate, the extraction mechanism must be 
capable of withdrawing some large quanta - in the 50eV range (>10x most 
chemical reactions).  This is why you don't see ordinary chemical processes 
creating inverse Rydberg states.  While all of the mechanisms you describe 
sound like possible evanescent couplings, I guess you have to ask yourself, 
which ones could possibly extract a 50eV quantum from the hydrogen and then 
where would it go?  I think this is where Dr. Storms' linear hydroton structure 
would come into play.  The hydroton could absorb the 50eV into its macro 
vibrational mode until some radiation mechanism dissipated it.


  Just to be fair, such quanta could also be extracted in something like Dr. 
Kim's magnetically trapped condensate of hydrogen atoms if the condensate 
absorbed the energy as a whole and divided the 50eV amongst the condensate 
atoms.  Once divided, it is not clear how the condensate would rid itself of 
this energy, but many avenues are possible.


  The scenario of successive ratcheting down the energy of the hydron BEFORE it 
fuses is highly desirable because it answers the question of why there isn't a 
strong gamma emission leaking out when fusion occurs - the energy is withdrawn 
in small chunks BEFORE the fusion can happen and fusion can only happen with 
the very low energy hydron.


  Mills response to this, I would think, would be yes, but no fusion happens at 
the end.  You just get the energy out from ratcheting the hydron into a hydrino.


  Bob



  On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Bob Cook  wrote:

Bob--

What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the 
evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena?

The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin 
orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and 
maybe others unknown.  Some of these may be controlled more or less by the 
local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as 
exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be 
at any instant particular instant in time.  

Bob  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Higgins 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM
      Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?


  Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken" 
hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy 
state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been variously 
described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or "hydrino" (Mills) 
states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes multiple fractional 
states below ground level.  There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level 
or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen. 


  Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) 
Rydberg states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of 
the correct energy level.  Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below 
normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) 
to the atom according to Mills.  Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional 
states has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case.  It may 
turn out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states.


  I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken 
states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the 
possibility does seem compelling.  In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is 
formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in 
the hydrogen atom before it fuses s

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Bob Higgins]

Again, I am strictly an amateur at theoretical solid state physics; I
cannot attest to having an "understanding".

Since the energy reduction for the Millsian inverse Rydberg states is
quantized, even though it cannot radiate, the extraction mechanism must be
capable of withdrawing some large quanta - in the 50eV range (>10x most
chemical reactions).  This is why you don't see ordinary chemical processes
creating inverse Rydberg states.  While all of the mechanisms you describe
sound like possible evanescent couplings, I guess you have to ask yourself,
which ones could possibly extract a 50eV quantum from the hydrogen and then
where would it go?  I think this is where Dr. Storms' linear hydroton
structure would come into play.  The hydroton could absorb the 50eV into
its macro vibrational mode until some radiation mechanism dissipated it.

Just to be fair, such quanta could also be extracted in something like Dr.
Kim's magnetically trapped condensate of hydrogen atoms if the condensate
absorbed the energy as a whole and divided the 50eV amongst the condensate
atoms.  Once divided, it is not clear how the condensate would rid itself
of this energy, but many avenues are possible.

The scenario of successive ratcheting down the energy of the hydron BEFORE
it fuses is highly desirable because it answers the question of why there
isn't a strong gamma emission leaking out when fusion occurs - the energy
is withdrawn in small chunks BEFORE the fusion can happen and fusion can
only happen with the very low energy hydron.

Mills response to this, I would think, would be yes, but no fusion happens
at the end.  You just get the energy out from ratcheting the hydron into a
hydrino.

Bob


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Bob Cook  wrote:

>  Bob--
>
> What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in
> the evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena?
>
> The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling,
> spin orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational
> coupling and maybe others unknown.  Some of these may be controlled more or
> less by the local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed
> transitions as exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states,
> whatever they may be at any instant particular instant in time.
>
> Bob
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Bob Higgins 
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?
>
> Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken"
> hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an
> energy state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been
> variously described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or
> "hydrino" (Mills) states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes
> multiple fractional states below ground level.  There is an older reference
> to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.
>
> Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg
> states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the
> correct energy level.  Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below
> normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling
> (non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills.  Incontrovertible evidence
> for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a
> pretty good case.  It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of
> these fractional states.
>
> I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken
> states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me,
> the possibility does seem compelling.  In Dr. Storms' theory, when his
> hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as
> removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is
> little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs.  One way to
> successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the
> progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills'
> minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs.  The hydroton
> configuration could provide the evanescent coupling needed to take the H to
> fractional levels.
>
> Bob Higgins
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset wrote:
>
>> Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT
>> by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 
>> 18<http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTmethodofco.pdf>last year.
>> In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at R

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Bob Cook]

Bob--

What is your understanding of the energy transfer mechanism involved in the 
evanescent coupling (non-radiative) phenomena?

The ones we know about are vibrational lattice damping, spin coupling, spin 
orbit force coupling, electro-weak force coupling, gravitational coupling and 
maybe others unknown.  Some of these may be controlled more or less by the 
local magnetic field which change the parameters of allowed transitions as 
exist in a quantum system with its quantum energy states, whatever they may be 
at any instant particular instant in time.  

Bob  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Higgins 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?


  Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken" 
hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an energy 
state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been variously 
described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or "hydrino" (Mills) 
states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes multiple fractional 
states below ground level.  There is an older reference to a Deep Dirac Level 
or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.


  Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg 
states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the 
correct energy level.  Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below normal 
ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling (non-radiative) to the 
atom according to Mills.  Incontrovertible evidence for the fractional states 
has never been provided, though Mills makes a pretty good case.  It may turn 
out that LENR could prove the existence of these fractional states.


  I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken 
states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me, the 
possibility does seem compelling.  In Dr. Storms' theory, when his hydroton is 
formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as removing the energy in 
the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is little energy remaining to 
be released when the fusion occurs.  One way to successively remove the energy 
in such a hydroton configuration may be the progressive conversion to an ever 
more fractional state, and when Mills' minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion 
occurs.  The hydroton configuration could provide the evanescent coupling 
needed to take the H to fractional levels.


  Bob Higgins




  On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset  
wrote:

Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT by 
Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 18 last year. 
In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg 
matter but does not actually mention Rydberg. 
Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size 
and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show 
identical effects. 


Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that 
Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons.


Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?
  

Re: [Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Bob Higgins]

Keep in mind that "Rydberg matter" does not normally describe "shrunken"
hydrogen.  Shrunken hydrogen has its electron in a reduced orbital at an
energy state below the normally accepted ground state.  This has been
variously described as "inverse Rydberg" and "fractional Rydberg" or
"hydrino" (Mills) states that are all below ground level.  Mills describes
multiple fractional states below ground level.  There is an older reference
to a Deep Dirac Level or DDL that is also a shrunken hydrogen.

Most normal hydrogen states, including the normal (non-fractional) Rydberg
states are entered and departed via emission/absorbtion of a photon of the
correct energy level.  Transitions to fractional Rydberg states (below
normal ground level) can only achieved by evanescent coupling
(non-radiative) to the atom according to Mills.  Incontrovertible evidence
for the fractional states has never been provided, though Mills makes a
pretty good case.  It may turn out that LENR could prove the existence of
these fractional states.

I will leave it to the more skilled theorists to say whether the shrunken
states (fractional Rydberg) of hydrogen are implicated in LENR - but to me,
the possibility does seem compelling.  In Dr. Storms' theory, when his
hydroton is formed in the NAE (crack), he describes the hydroton as
removing the energy in the hydrogen atom before it fuses such that there is
little energy remaining to be released when the fusion occurs.  One way to
successively remove the energy in such a hydroton configuration may be the
progressive conversion to an ever more fractional state, and when Mills'
minimum size of 1/137 is reached, fusion occurs.  The hydroton
configuration could provide the evanescent coupling needed to take the H to
fractional levels.

Bob Higgins


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Teslaalset wrote:

> Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT
> by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF 
> 18last year.
> In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg
> matter but does not actually mention Rydberg.
> Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size
> and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show
> identical effects.
>
> Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that
> Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons.
>
> Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?
>
>
>
>

[Vo]:Is Mizuno poining at Ryberg matter or not?

[Teslaalset]

Recent positive responses to Mizuno's work present recently at MIT
by Yoshino made me look at his work presented at ICCF
18last year.
In section 1.1 of this presentation Mizuno hints in my view at Rydberg
matter but does not actually mention Rydberg.
Bullet #4 and #5 indicates he thinks some involved atoms schrink in size
and in bullet #10 he indicates that alkali and alkaline-earth elements show
identical effects.

Looking to general description of Rydberg atoms, it is indicated that
Rydberg atoms are extremely large with loosely bound valence electrons.

Any opinions on these observations/assumptions?