[Vo]:Crazy Ideas canhave merit; Crazyiness? probably not!

[Wm. Scott Smith]

Crazy Ideas canhave merit; Crazyiness? probably not! 
Crazy ideas are part of the creative process; even the unworkable crazy ideas 
can lead us down new paths that do have unexpected good solutions. Perhaps some 
people have a sort of controlled or intermittent craziness. It is really hard 
for me to believe that Alice in Wonderland was not to some degree a result of 
psychotic experiences, or drugs, or perhaps accidental ingestion of shrooms.
From any standpoint,  thinking out of the box must inherently involve 
considering things that you and/or most people have already thrown out of the 
box, or things that were never allowed into the box in the first place. This 
is because the box already contains all of the sane , relevant, useful, 
etc-ideas.

Scott

 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:02:56 +0200
 From: peter.heck...@arcor.de
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:An interesting Steve jobs quote for Professor Rossi
 
 You forget something that Jobs and others have demonstrated:
 Crazyness and ingnorance are not enough to change the world.
 Most who are crazy are not genius and not capable.. 
 
 
 - Original Nachricht 
 Von: Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com
 An:  vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Datum:   27.10.2011 04:14
 Betreff: [Vo]:An interesting Steve jobs quote for Professor Rossi
 
  Here?s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the
  round pegs in the square holes? the ones who see things differently ?
  they?re not fond of rules? You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify
  or vilify them, but the only thing you can?t do is ignore them because they
  change things? they push the human race forward, and while some may see
  them
  as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to
  think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.? ? Think
  Different, narrated by Steve
  Jobshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA
  
  Ron Kita,  Chiralex
  
 
  

Re: [Vo]:crazy...and just one more thing...

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Harry Veeder hvee...@ncf.ca wrote:


 I think the term participants means eligible
 *employers* rather than
 individuals.

Trouble is, it isn't the clearest bill in the world.
If there is even the slightest bit of question as to
the wording, it is cause for great concern, given what
is at stake.

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Rhong Dhong rongdon...@yahoo.com wrote:

 If you mean the German civilians who were
 incinerated by the Allied 'area bombing', I agree. A
 terrible crime.

No. I mean polluted with the ashes of 6+ million
slaughtered Jews, gypsies, etc.
 
 Why is national service 'follow(ing) the trail of
 the nsdap'? We had a draft for 30+ years. Was it so
 terrible? Did it do bad things to youngsters? Did
 they all start goosestepping? I don't understand why
 you equate national service with nazis.

I don't know, ask all the Democrats in power now who
were protesting it, and are now for it. Since they
are, of course, too old for it.

I think Vietnam speaks for itself. No one should ever
be willing to go again, unless they are allowed to
win. Useless bloodshed is just that: useless.
 
 If you just don't like the idea of anybody being
 told what to do by anybody else, say so; but don't
 drag in the poor old nazis. Haven't they been
 pilloried enough for the past 70 years?

Okay, I say so. I don't. I used to think that I could
go around telling people what to do, but I was wrong.
Live and let live. Unless these people decide to come
and 'recruit' my wife. She falls within the 15-25 age
range spoken of; I do not. With my health problems
anyways, I am easily exempt. But if they come for a
friend, family member, or anyone I don't even know,
but see it happening, I will fight it. If they come
for my wife, I will change my view to live and let
die.
 
 These days, if you free spirits, you independent
 thinkers, want to say 'I do not like X', it seems
 you are programmed like a machine to add: 'X is a
 nazi'.

Alright, forget the Nazis. A rose by any other name is
still a rose, and in this case, smells like shit.

Let me ask you this... why do you seem so pro-Nazi,
however?

Obama, McDermott, et al, need to get this straight: I
am their employer. All American citizens are their
employers. They work for us, not the other way around.
No government official should ever be any less than
absolutely TERRIFIED of the people.

The wording attached to these new bills comes closer
to sedition than anything I've read lately. One
addition (to the GIVE act, IIRC) apparently precludes
those participating (voluntarily or not) from
organizing protests, union strikes, etc. So now we are
up from just violating amendment 13, to now violating
ole' number 1.

Sorry, but I am required by law to uphold the
Constitution. If anyone, regardless of who they are,
tries to coerce us to act differently, I am required
to refuse such treasonous instructions.

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:crazy...and just one more thing...

[Kyle Mcallister]

V,

Do I believe our benefactors (congress, et al.) or my
lying eyes? Read this, especially section 1304,
subsection 125.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1388

Let's violate freedom of speech, freedom to organize
protests, freedom of religious expression, hell, let's
just violate the whole damn thing.

Jeez, and people around here took offense when I
suggested that we force convicts to build solar
collectors in the desert as a way of paying their
debt, and/or shortening sentence duration + gaining a
certificate of aptitude in solar engineering. All of
which, I might add, is constitutional according to
amendment 13, unlike what these great patriots we've
got in power are now doing.

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:crazy...and just one more thing...

[Harry Veeder]

- Original Message -
From: Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com
Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:crazy...and just one more thing...

 
 V,
 
 Do I believe our benefactors (congress, et al.) or my
 lying eyes? Read this, especially section 1304,
 subsection 125.
 
 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1388
 
 Let's violate freedom of speech, freedom to organize
 protests, freedom of religious expression, hell, let's
 just violate the whole damn thing.
 
 Jeez, and people around here took offense when I
 suggested that we force convicts to build solar
 collectors in the desert as a way of paying their
 debt, and/or shortening sentence duration + gaining a
 certificate of aptitude in solar engineering. All of
 which, I might add, is constitutional according to
 amendment 13, unlike what these great patriots we've
 got in power are now doing.
 
 --Kyle
 

I think the term participants means eligible *employers* rather than
individuals.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[Rhong Dhong]

--- On Sat, 3/28/09, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Until that clean country air was polluted with ash
 from 6+ million souls. If O as you call him, or any
 other American politician for that matter, wishes to
 follow the trail of the NSDAP, I will never cease to
 oppose them. Thus, I am part of the solution.

If you mean the German civilians who were incinerated by the Allied 'area 
bombing', I agree. A terrible crime.

Why is national service 'follow(ing) the trail of the nsdap'? We had a draft 
for 30+ years. Was it so terrible? Did it do bad things to youngsters? Did they 
all start goosestepping? I don't understand why you equate national service 
with nazis.

If you just don't like the idea of anybody being told what to do by anybody 
else, say so; but don't drag in the poor old nazis. Haven't they been pilloried 
enough for the past 70 years?

These days, if you free spirits, you independent thinkers, want to say 'I do 
not like X', it seems you are programmed like a machine to add: 'X is a nazi'.




  

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[thomas malloy]

Rhong Dhong wrote:



--- On Sat, 3/28/09, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:

 


Until that clean country air was polluted with ash
from 6+ million souls. If O as you call him, or any
other American politician for that matter, wishes to
follow the trail of the NSDAP, I will never cease to
oppose them. Thus, I am part of the solution.
   



If you mean the German civilians who were incinerated by the Allied 'area 
bombing', I agree. A terrible crime.
 


No, we mean the 14 million European civilians who were murdered by the Nazis


Did they all start goosestepping? I don't understand why you equate national 
service with nazis.
 


The Liberal's ideas parallel Hitler's, that's why


but don't drag in the poor old nazis. Haven't they been pilloried enough for 
the past 70 years?
 


Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


These days, if you free spirits, you independent thinkers, want to say 'I do 
not like X', it seems you are programmed like a machine to add: 'X is a nazi'.
 


If the shoe fits wear it.



 





--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

[Vo]:Crazy?

[Kyle Mcallister]

V,

Since there's apparently little to no interest in
learning what I found re: the Morton effect, or what
I've done/am doing with Laithwaite's inertial
propulsion work, or discussing faster than light
travel, implications thereof (resistance to in
sci-community/effects and/or testability of
alternatives to SR/evidence supporting/etc.),
constructing a simple LENR heater (still I maintain,
we should try), and so forth, here's a bone to chew
on. I tried getting away from this, but I felt that
since the experiment has apparently died, maybe
something else is wanted.

You called me crazy when I said, Obama and Co. would
salivate over the idea of forcing mandatory service on
people. Read this, particularly section 6:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1444

Look up HR 1388 on there as well.

And this:

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/27/the-house-giveth-and-the-government-taketh-away-our-freedoms-1.php

Ignore the somewhat ridiculous at times right-wing
banners and whatnot, but the meat is all there to
read, and you can find it from the horse's own mouth.
Or is that donkey, given the political asses behind
this?

Allow me to quote this little thing called the 13th
Amendment. It isn't just for blacks.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude,
except as a punishment for crime where of the party
shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the
United States, or any place subject to their
jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce
this article by appropriate legislation.

Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
suppose. And pray tell, if as HR1444 states,
volunteerism is up, why do we need to even consider
making it mandatory (which is unconstitutional and
illegal)? Creedence Clearwater Revival got it right:
And when you ask them, how much should we give? Oooh,
they only answer more! More! More!

I will qualify what I am saying for you that say, 'he
posts this only out of concern for himself.' Wrong. I
am not age eligible for this as proposed, nor would I
be required due to my (numerous and increasing) health
problems. I am worrying for my family, my friends, my
acquaintances, my neighbors, and those I do not even
know. 

Last note for now, what would the bleeding hearts
(weren't you guys the same ones supposedly against
drafts and such? Peace, flowers, etc.?) say if this
had been proposed by a Republican? The only news
outlet that /wouldn't/ be trashing it in that case
would be Fux. Er... Fox. Sorry. Ahem.

They'd be right to trash it too. Regardless of party
line, this is wrong.

--Kyle
V for...Victory?


  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[leaking pen]

Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
suppose.

Where have you been?  Being a kid has involved a significant lack of
the normal human rights you normally get the moment you turn 18 for a
LONG while now.

and, this has been in the works for FOREVER.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Kyle Mcallister
kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:

 V,

 Since there's apparently little to no interest in
 learning what I found re: the Morton effect, or what
 I've done/am doing with Laithwaite's inertial
 propulsion work, or discussing faster than light
 travel, implications thereof (resistance to in
 sci-community/effects and/or testability of
 alternatives to SR/evidence supporting/etc.),
 constructing a simple LENR heater (still I maintain,
 we should try), and so forth, here's a bone to chew
 on. I tried getting away from this, but I felt that
 since the experiment has apparently died, maybe
 something else is wanted.

 You called me crazy when I said, Obama and Co. would
 salivate over the idea of forcing mandatory service on
 people. Read this, particularly section 6:

 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1444

 Look up HR 1388 on there as well.

 And this:

 http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/27/the-house-giveth-and-the-government-taketh-away-our-freedoms-1.php

 Ignore the somewhat ridiculous at times right-wing
 banners and whatnot, but the meat is all there to
 read, and you can find it from the horse's own mouth.
 Or is that donkey, given the political asses behind
 this?

 Allow me to quote this little thing called the 13th
 Amendment. It isn't just for blacks.

 Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude,
 except as a punishment for crime where of the party
 shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the
 United States, or any place subject to their
 jurisdiction.

 Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce
 this article by appropriate legislation.

 Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
 suppose. And pray tell, if as HR1444 states,
 volunteerism is up, why do we need to even consider
 making it mandatory (which is unconstitutional and
 illegal)? Creedence Clearwater Revival got it right:
 And when you ask them, how much should we give? Oooh,
 they only answer more! More! More!

 I will qualify what I am saying for you that say, 'he
 posts this only out of concern for himself.' Wrong. I
 am not age eligible for this as proposed, nor would I
 be required due to my (numerous and increasing) health
 problems. I am worrying for my family, my friends, my
 acquaintances, my neighbors, and those I do not even
 know.

 Last note for now, what would the bleeding hearts
 (weren't you guys the same ones supposedly against
 drafts and such? Peace, flowers, etc.?) say if this
 had been proposed by a Republican? The only news
 outlet that /wouldn't/ be trashing it in that case
 would be Fux. Er... Fox. Sorry. Ahem.

 They'd be right to trash it too. Regardless of party
 line, this is wrong.

 --Kyle
 V for...Victory?

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote:

 Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
 suppose.
 
 Where have you been?  Being a kid has involved a
 significant lack of
 the normal human rights you normally get the moment
 you turn 18 for a
 LONG while now.

Well, I was mostly referring to the age bracket
targetted by these people, 18-25.
 
 and, this has been in the works for FOREVER.

I don't doubt it.

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Rhong Dhong]

I don't know why people are getting worked up about O's national service 
proposal: plenty of countries have or have had that. The US had a draft from 
1940 to around 1972 and it didn't destroy liberty.

Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep quiet, and obey orders. That 
sort of discipline would do wonders for them.

O's proposal is a step in the right direction.


  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[leaking pen]

Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep quiet, and obey orders.

Ohh no no no.  No we don't.  But being forced to think of other
people, and a bit of self discipline would be a good thing.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Rhong Dhong rongdon...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I don't know why people are getting worked up about O's national service 
 proposal: plenty of countries have or have had that. The US had a draft from 
 1940 to around 1972 and it didn't destroy liberty.

 Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep quiet, and obey orders. 
 That sort of discipline would do wonders for them.

 O's proposal is a step in the right direction.

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Rhong Dhong rongdon...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
 I don't know why people are getting worked up about
 O's national service proposal: plenty of countries
 have or have had that. The US had a draft from 1940
 to around 1972 and it didn't destroy liberty.

1. We are not other countries. If we can't Americanize
them (and I don't necessarily think we should), don't
try to convert us into other countries.

2. The same party that opposed the draft and wanted
amnesty for draft evaders, is now that which proposes
the same, possibly much worse, thing.
 
 Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep
 quiet, and obey orders. That sort of discipline
 would do wonders for them.

Excuse me. I am in line. I do the best I can to help
my fellow human being, WITHOUT being forced to. I
/TOW/ the line. I pay my taxes without question, I
help people whenever I can, I give out of my own
pocket what I rightfully earned for myself. As I type
this, I returned with my wife from the grocery store.
I picked her up, as she works there. We didn't need to
buy anything, but some local church had a food drive
going on. We bought $50 worth of items and gave it to
them. They were surprised that we bought one of
everything on the list; most just bought one or two
things, felt good for what they did, and went back to
their SUV and/or brand new hybrid with an Obama
sticker on it. 

I drive a beat up piece of crap, barely make ends
meet, and yet I gave. $50 for us is a LOT of money. So
fuck you and people like you for telling ME to keep
quiet and get in line. Take your discipline, which
the NSDAP would have loved, and shove it where the sun
don't shine.
 
 O's proposal is a step in the right direction.

No it is not. You should read a bit about pre-WWII
Germany.

--Kyle



  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Stephen A. Lawrence]

Kyle, you do cool stuff.  Your posts about stuff you've done are always
interesting, sometimes fascinating, often extremely entertaining.  Don't
think nobody's interested, just because there are not a lot of comments!
 (Politics is easier to comment on than experimental results, by the way.)

But when you mix politics with experiment with theory I, for one, kind
of lose interest.

And there are some other issues here.

Kyle Mcallister wrote:
 V,
 
 Since there's apparently little to no interest in
 learning what I found re: the Morton effect,

What *you* do with it is interesting, because you do interesting
experiments.  If you find anything out about it -- even if you just
replicate some of his results -- and you post them, I'll certainly read
what you post with interest.

However, I, personally, find the original Morton effect, as written up
on the Web by Morton, not worth a lot of thought, and here's why:

Here's the page I found, by Morton himself:

http://amasci.com/freenrg/morton1.html

And here's a quote:

[Morton wrote:]
 SO I tried several experiments in which uncharged bodies were
 accelerated at low velocity. sure enough, accelerating ball and tops
 attract each other while decelerating bodies repel.

So Morton says that *his* experiments indicate that for the last 300
years physicists have been totally confused:  Newtonian mechanics flat
out doesn't work for bodies which are accelerating ... and until Morton
came along, nobody noticed.

I'm pathologically skeptical about just a few things, but this hits dead
center as far as I'm concerned.  If Morton's experiments indicate that
accelerating bodies violate Newton's laws really badly (and at low
velocities, too) then I write it up to Morton having crummy lab
technique and I move on.  I don't know what caused the effects he
observed with spinning tops and I'm not willing to spend the time to
find out.

On the other hand, if *you* want to test his claims, I'm interested in
reading about what you've done; your writeups are nearly always worth
reading and you are apparently an honest experimenter, who is not
bending the results to fit some theory.

But don't expect a lot of comments about proposed experiments or
preliminary results, from me at least, because, as I said, I'm convinced
Morton's all wet before the gate even opens.


 or what
 I've done/am doing with Laithwaite's inertial
 propulsion work,

Inertial propulsion is another instance where for it to be correct,
Newton and all who followed must have been wrong, confused, stupid, or
dishonest.  This is very, very hard to believe.  Far easier to believe
is that Laithwaite was (fill in the blank) and his results are incorrect.

So, if you want to test it, by all means write up the results, they'll
be interesting to read.  If *you* get a contradictory or impossible
result, it'll be very interesting to read the description of the
experiment and try to figure out what led to the result, because you are
an honest experimenter (or so I believe), and by the way I'd believe you
before I'd believe a British eccentric with a batso theory whether or
not he's got a PhD.


 or discussing faster than light
 travel, implications thereof (resistance to in
 sci-community/effects and/or testability of
 alternatives to SR/evidence supporting/etc.),
 constructing a simple LENR heater (still I maintain,
 we should try),

Yes, for sure, someone should try it; if you can see a way to convert
the low grade heat generated by all CF experiments to date into useable
energy output that would be *extremely* interesting.

If you can't see a way to get a useful result from CF as it stands,
though, then more fundamental work is needed.


 and so forth, here's a bone to chew
 on. I tried getting away from this, but I felt that
 since the experiment has apparently died, maybe
 something else is wanted.
 
 You called me crazy when I said, Obama ...

Now there you go again, mixing in politics.

I have just one thing to say about this:

Obama's currently in the honeymoon period of his presidency, and seems
 to be trying to push through all the controversial programs he can
before the first blush wears off.  And, after all, Great Society-type
programs, such as happened under Roosevelt and Johnson, didn't ruin the
country or turn it Communist in the past, and I'm sure they won't now,
either.  So, don't sweat it too much -- the first blush *will* wear off,
and what actually turns into law a year or two down the road may or may
not match what's intended by Obama today.

However, there is something which you *should* find disturbing:  The one
time Johnson actually ran for president (after Kennedy was assassinated
and Johnson's partial term ran out) he ran on an anti-war platform.

Think about that.  And think about what Johnson actually did in the
following 4 years.  And think about Afghanistan.

Personally I am rather fearful for the future course of events over
there.  It does not look good, not at all...

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:

 Kyle, you do cool stuff.  Your posts about stuff
 you've done are always
 interesting, sometimes fascinating, often extremely
 entertaining.  Don't
 think nobody's interested, just because there are
 not a lot of comments!
  (Politics is easier to comment on than experimental
 results, by the way.)

Why?
 
 But when you mix politics with experiment with
 theory I, for one, kind
 of lose interest.

If politics makes interest be lost, why is Vortex the
slum of political and religious postings now? 
 
 So Morton says that *his* experiments indicate that
 for the last 300
 years physicists have been totally confused: 
 Newtonian mechanics flat
 out doesn't work for bodies which are accelerating
 ... and until Morton
 came along, nobody noticed.

Nobody noticed what you could do with certain rocks,
either, if you put them together the right way.
Where'd that heat come from? Can't be right, all of
chemistry would be wrong. No, it was just something
else going on.

I don't think we're exactly talking about the same
Morton effect. I am not investigating his other
claims, which I myself, in a post that was probably
either misread or skimmed over, said were kind of
kooky. In my mind, the Morton effect is simply *the
report of a beam of some unknown force emanating from
the configured Van de Graff generator.* That is all I
tested. I don't know about anything else he did.
 
 I'm pathologically skeptical about just a few
 things, but this hits dead
 center as far as I'm concerned.  If Morton's
 experiments indicate that
 accelerating bodies violate Newton's laws really
 badly (and at low
 velocities, too) then I write it up to Morton having
 crummy lab
 technique and I move on.  I don't know what caused
 the effects he
 observed with spinning tops and I'm not willing to
 spend the time to
 find out.

Great. Fine. If you don't want to spend the time,
don't. But don't confuse what I'm doing. I am not
testing these parts of his claims, simply the 'effect'
itself, whatever it is, from the VdG. That's all I
ever claimed to be working on, period. I qualified
that quite a while back.

...You do know that pathological skepticism is
somewhat frowned on here, yes? WVORT.HTML and all
that?
 
 On the other hand, if *you* want to test his claims,
 I'm interested in
 reading about what you've done; your writeups are
 nearly always worth
 reading and you are apparently an honest
 experimenter, who is not
 bending the results to fit some theory.

I try not to be biased. It is easy to do when looking
for something unusual, that would be good, when you
are a person who has so little hope any more that
whenever I do feel it, I try to grab ahold of it. It
isn't possible, it is a chasing after the wind.
 
 Inertial propulsion is another instance where for it
 to be correct,
 Newton and all who followed must have been wrong,
 confused, stupid, or
 dishonest.  This is very, very hard to believe.  Far
 easier to believe
 is that Laithwaite was (fill in the blank) and his
 results are incorrect.

They need not have been wrong. Newtonian mechanics
still works until you reach velocities where
relativistic effects come into play. Then there are
modifications needed. Again, the Ohm's Law analogy.

Newton, et al., did experiments and saw things that
happened, so they built a theoretical framework around
it that works pretty well. That is not to say there is
not a hidden addition to the home's basic frame. 

Just because something is hard to believe, does not
make it wrong. And from where I am sitting, the risk
to reward ratio is worthy of the pursuit.
 
 So, if you want to test it, by all means write up
 the results, they'll
 be interesting to read.  If *you* get a
 contradictory or impossible
 result, it'll be very interesting to read the
 description of the
 experiment and try to figure out what led to the
 result, because you are
 an honest experimenter (or so I believe), and by the
 way I'd believe you
 before I'd believe a British eccentric with a batso
 theory whether or
 not he's got a PhD.

He didn't exactly have a theory. He based most of what
he did on experimentation, which admittedly could have
been misinterpreted. That is mostly what I'm trying to
do. And I'm not going to let any theory, new batso or
old batso, stand in the way of steel, bronze, copper,
and a heaping helping of angular momentum.
 
 Yes, for sure, someone should try it; if you can see
 a way to convert
 the low grade heat generated by all CF experiments
 to date into useable
 energy output that would be *extremely* interesting.

Kay... for starters, can anyone say how much was the
best amount of heat produced, what the experiment was,
what is needed to do it, and so on? 
 
  You called me crazy when I said, Obama ...
 
 Now there you go again, mixing in politics.

Bad excuse, I know, but... everyone is doing it. Why
should I not?
 
 Obama's currently in the honeymoon period of his
 presidency, and seems
  to be trying 

[Vo]:Crazy?

[Taylor J. Smith]

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

``However, there is something which you *should* find
disturbing:  The one time Johnson actually ran for
president (after Kennedy was assassinated and Johnson's
partial term ran out) he ran on an anti-war platform.

Think about that.  And think about what Johnson actually
did in the following 4 years.  And think about Afghanistan.

Personally I am rather fearful for the future course of
events over there.  It does not look good, not at all.''

Hi All,

Stephen is right.  The Russians are going to pay us back
for driving them out by having Osama bin Laden shoot down
their helicopters with Stinger missiles, eventually costing
them the end of the Russian empire and the loss of the
stans.

And the stans have the easy oil, the kind we know how
to drill for.  If we don't get off foreign oil NOW,
Afghanistan and the rest of Central Asia will become a
stinking death pit for Americans, as our children and
grandchildren are herded off to fight the Kazakh War
of 2020.

Jack Smith

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Stephen A. Lawrence]

Kyle Mcallister wrote:
 --- Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
 
 Kyle, you do cool stuff.  Your posts about stuff
 you've done are always
 interesting, sometimes fascinating, often extremely
 entertaining.  Don't
 think nobody's interested, just because there are
 not a lot of comments!
  (Politics is easier to comment on than experimental
 results, by the way.)
 
 Why?

Dunno -- maybe because it takes no thought, it's just regurgitating
opinions which one already has.


  
 But when you mix politics with experiment with
 theory I, for one, kind
 of lose interest.
 
 If politics makes interest be lost, why is Vortex the
 slum of political and religious postings now? 
  
 So Morton says that *his* experiments indicate that
 for the last 300
 years physicists have been totally confused: 
 Newtonian mechanics flat
 out doesn't work for bodies which are accelerating
 ... and until Morton
 came along, nobody noticed.
 
 Nobody noticed what you could do with certain rocks,
 either, if you put them together the right way.
 Where'd that heat come from? Can't be right, all of
 chemistry would be wrong. No, it was just something
 else going on.
 
 I don't think we're exactly talking about the same
 Morton effect. I am not investigating his other
 claims, which I myself, in a post that was probably
 either misread or skimmed over, said were kind of
 kooky.

Yes, I know, and yes, I know, and what you've already posted, involving
firing sparks through a glass tube and looking for something which
sounded something like a vortex ring, was interesting.  And certainly
Mortimer had a lot to say about that as well.

The problem I have is that Mortimer also convinced himself he'd proved
Newton wrong.  As far as I'm concerned that kind of does it for
believing Mortimer was any kind of adequate experimentalist, not because
he did experiments wrong, but because when he got results which flew in
the face of 300 years of other people's results he just casually assumed
*they* were wrong and *he* was right, without either trying really hard
to find the source of his (very likely) error or, apparently, without so
much as wondering how everybody else could have been so far wrong.


 In my mind, the Morton effect is simply *the
 report of a beam of some unknown force emanating from
 the configured Van de Graff generator.* That is all I
 tested. I don't know about anything else he did.


Right, I realize that.  I just read a little farther and found what I
considered to be evidence that Mortimer qualified as a crackpot.


  
 I'm pathologically skeptical about just a few
 things, but this hits dead
 center as far as I'm concerned.  If Morton's
 experiments indicate that
 accelerating bodies violate Newton's laws really
 badly (and at low
 velocities, too) then I write it up to Morton having
 crummy lab
 technique and I move on.  I don't know what caused
 the effects he
 observed with spinning tops and I'm not willing to
 spend the time to
 find out.
 
 Great. Fine. If you don't want to spend the time,
 don't. But don't confuse what I'm doing. I am not
 testing these parts of his claims, simply the 'effect'
 itself, whatever it is, from the VdG. That's all I
 ever claimed to be working on, period. I qualified
 that quite a while back.
 
 ...You do know that pathological skepticism is
 somewhat frowned on here, yes? WVORT.HTML and all
 that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I realize that.

So, I admit to it in this case.  And I won't say anything more about it
with regard to Mortimer's effects, OK?


Anyhow gotta run, a bit more later, perhaps.

[snip part I'm not addressing just now...]

[Vo]:crazy

[Rhong Dhong]

Kyle McAllister Writes:

+++
Excuse me. I am in line. I do the best I can... I /TOW/ the line. I pay my 
taxes...I help people...I give ...We bought...and gave it...I drive...barely 
make ends meet, and yet I gave...
fuck you...Take your discipline,...shove it...
+++

You sound like a fine fellow, a disciplined humanitarian; but you have a bad 
attitude and are making it easy for undisciplined louts to whine about a little 
national service.

 O's proposal is a step in the right direction.

+++
No it is not. You should read a bit about pre-WWII
Germany.
+++

I assume you are talking about the HitlerJugend. Boy scouts from what I hear. 
Got the kids into clean country air, got them to clear brush, live in tents, 
take responsibility.

Just what O wants to do.

Stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.





  

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[J. Klum]

Rhong Dhong wrote:

  Kyle McAllister Writes:

+++
Excuse me. I am in line. I do the best I can... I /TOW/ the line. I pay my taxes...I help people...I give ...We bought...and gave it...I drive...barely make ends meet, and yet I gave...
fuck you...Take your "discipline,"...shove it...
+++

You sound like a fine fellow, a disciplined humanitarian; but you have a bad attitude and are making it easy for undisciplined louts to whine about a little national service.

  
  
O's proposal is a step in the right direction.

  
  
+++
No it is not. You should read a bit about pre-WWII
Germany.
+++

I assume you are talking about the HitlerJugend. Boy scouts from what I hear. Got the kids into clean country air, got them to clear brush, live in tents, take responsibility.

Just what O wants to do.

Stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.





  



  

Funny Fellow Indeed and an all American Name to go with it!

Kyle!

We all know what is needed and that is to stock the Larder, Stock Pile
the Ammo and Block all Entrances. Much to "THERE" future surprise we do
indeed outnumber and will in the end prevail.

Risking being placed on one of their lists of (no gooders, ala real
Americans) give it up and do the right thing in the background, history
prevails that surprise bests advance notice.

I stand by you 100% even in the collapsed state of Washington my lawn
will flow with fee loaders an thieves when the day of judgment comes.

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[leaking pen]

Wow.

Guys, put the pipes down.  Stop the bubbles.  Your dealers cut it with
some REALLY nasty crap.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 2:40 PM, J. Klum jk...@embarqmail.com wrote:
 Rhong Dhong wrote:

 Kyle McAllister Writes:

 +++
 Excuse me. I am in line. I do the best I can... I /TOW/ the line. I pay my
 taxes...I help people...I give ...We bought...and gave it...I drive...barely
 make ends meet, and yet I gave...
 fuck you...Take your discipline,...shove it...
 +++

 You sound like a fine fellow, a disciplined humanitarian; but you have a bad
 attitude and are making it easy for undisciplined louts to whine about a
 little national service.



 O's proposal is a step in the right direction.


 +++
 No it is not. You should read a bit about pre-WWII
 Germany.
 +++

 I assume you are talking about the HitlerJugend. Boy scouts from what I
 hear. Got the kids into clean country air, got them to clear brush, live in
 tents, take responsibility.

 Just what O wants to do.

 Stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.











 Funny Fellow Indeed and an all American Name to go with it!

 Kyle!

 We all know what is needed and that is to stock the Larder, Stock Pile the
 Ammo and Block all Entrances. Much to THERE future surprise we do indeed
 outnumber and will in the end prevail.

 Risking being placed on one of their lists of (no gooders, ala real
 Americans) give it up and do the right thing in the background, history
 prevails that surprise bests advance notice.

 I stand by you 100% even in the collapsed state of Washington my lawn will
 flow with fee loaders an thieves when the day of judgment comes.

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Stephen A. Lawrence]

Kyle Mcallister wrote:
 --- Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
 

[snip previously addressed parts]

 On the other hand, if *you* want to test his claims, I'm interested
 in reading about what you've done; your writeups are nearly always
 worth reading and you are apparently an honest experimenter, who is
 not bending the results to fit some theory.
 
 I try not to be biased. It is easy to do when looking
 for something unusual, that would be good, when you
 are a person who has so little hope any more that
 whenever I do feel it, I try to grab ahold of it. It
 isn't possible, it is a chasing after the wind.
  
 Inertial propulsion is another instance where for it to be correct,
  Newton and all who followed must have been wrong, confused,
 stupid, or dishonest. This is very, very hard to believe. Far 
 easier to believe is that Laithwaite was (fill in the blank) and
 his results are incorrect.
 
 They need not have been wrong. Newtonian mechanics
 still works until you reach velocities where
 relativistic effects come into play. Then there are
 modifications needed. Again, the Ohm's Law analogy.

But inertial propulsion systems proposed here don't work with parts
moving at relativistic speeds -- or at any rate nothing I've seen
mentioned recently in this group did.  But maybe I'm just confused about
this.


 
 Newton, et al., did experiments and saw things that
 happened, so they built a theoretical framework around
 it that works pretty well. That is not to say there is
 not a hidden addition to the home's basic frame. 
 
 Just because something is hard to believe, does not
 make it wrong. And from where I am sitting, the risk
 to reward ratio is worthy of the pursuit.
  
 So, if you want to test it, by all means write up the results,
 they'll be interesting to read. If *you* get a contradictory or
 impossible result, it'll be very interesting to read the 
 description of the experiment and try to figure out what led to the
  result, because you are an honest experimenter (or so I believe),
 and by the way I'd believe you before I'd believe a British
 eccentric with a batso theory whether or not he's got a PhD.
 
 He didn't exactly have a theory. He based most of what
 he did on experimentation, which admittedly could have
 been misinterpreted. That is mostly what I'm trying to
 do. And I'm not going to let any theory, new batso or
 old batso, stand in the way of steel, bronze, copper,
 and a heaping helping of angular momentum.
  
 Yes, for sure, someone should try it; if you can see a way to
 convert the low grade heat generated by all CF experiments to date
 into useable energy output that would be *extremely* interesting.
 
 Kay... for starters, can anyone say how much was the
 best amount of heat produced, what the experiment was,
 what is needed to do it, and so on?

I don't know.  I can't.  My impression is that gas phase work has been
more reliable than liquid phase work, and has been a lot closer to
break-even (if we ignore the cost of compressing the D2O), but I could
be totally off base on that.

Mizuno's incandescent tungsten experiments may have produced the largest
amount of heat per experiment, but they also required a *large* amount
of input energy to make them go -- and they seem to be very hard to
reproduce.


  
[ snip some stuff]

 
 Think about that.  And think about what Johnson
 actually did in the
 following 4 years.  And think about Afghanistan.
 
 I'm not sure exactly where you're going with this, but
 AFAICT, Obama is not anti-war.

Well, his platform wasn't exactly

  Let's ramp up Afghanistan, YEAH!

It was more like

  Let's wind down Iraq (and send some of those troops to Afghanistan
where they can maybe do some good)

And that message was stacked up against McCain's message which was more
like Let's stay in Iraq as long as we need to, maybe forever, whatever,
let's stay, it's cool..., which may have made Obama's message sound
better than it was.

But 17,000 going to Afghanistan has turned into 19,000 with 2,000 of
them coming in fresh, and there are noises like a draft in the offing,
and this is beginning to seem a lot like the 1960's all over again.

Anyhow that's where I was going with that.


 He says a lot. What he
 may or may not do, is something else entirely. What he
 says changes from day to day. 

A pragmatist.

Like Nixon.  (But hopefully less of a psycho than Nixon.)


 And to be honest, it
 isn't so much Obama I am worried about. It is the
 three-ring-circus that is Congress. Both sides. There
 was a ton of red behind the latest crap that has been
 passed. This really is not democrat vs. republican. It
 is far more basic than that. Live and let live, vs.,
 those who wish to control all.
 
 --Kyle
 
 
   
 

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[mixent]

In reply to  Rhong Dhong's message of Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT):
Hi,
[snip]

I don't know why people are getting worked up about O's national service 
proposal: plenty of countries have or have had that. The US had a draft from 
1940 to around 1972 and it didn't destroy liberty.

Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep quiet, and obey orders. That 
sort of discipline would do wonders for them.

O's proposal is a step in the right direction.
[snip]
Are you this list's local representative of the People's Republic, or just
trolling? ;)

No one on Earth should obey orders from anyone. It would put an immediate end to
all wars.

If you want someone to do something, then ask them, don't order them.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[mixent]

In reply to  Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:11:47 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
But inertial propulsion systems proposed here don't work with parts
moving at relativistic speeds -- or at any rate nothing I've seen
mentioned recently in this group did.  But maybe I'm just confused about
this.

All speeds are relativistic. The relativistic effect is the origin of kinetic
energy.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Esa Ruoho]

you let us know when it involves free energy research in garages. or
planting trees+hemp.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 5:21 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote:
 Indeed, there has been discussion of a draft like thing that involves
 either civil service, military service, or college.

 On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Kyle Mcallister
 kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:


 --- leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote:

 Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
 suppose.

 Where have you been?  Being a kid has involved a
 significant lack of
 the normal human rights you normally get the moment
 you turn 18 for a
 LONG while now.

 Well, I was mostly referring to the age bracket
 targetted by these people, 18-25.

 and, this has been in the works for FOREVER.

 I don't doubt it.

 --Kyle










-- 
esa juhani ruoho

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Stephen A. Lawrence]

mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
 In reply to  Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:11:47 -0400:
 Hi,
 [snip]
 But inertial propulsion systems proposed here don't work with parts
 moving at relativistic speeds -- or at any rate nothing I've seen
 mentioned recently in this group did.  But maybe I'm just confused about
 this.

 All speeds are relativistic. The relativistic effect is the origin of kinetic
 energy.

Ah, c'mon, you know what I mean

Relativistic speeds are such that the terms which are second order in
the velocity start to matter.  To first order in (v/c)^2,

gamma = 1/sqrt(1-(v/c)^2) ~ 1 + (1/2)(v/c)^2

and as long as v  c you can ignore the (v/c)^2 term and get answers
which are accurate to within the errors in your measurements.  When
speeds are relativistic you can't ignore the (v/c)^2 term anymore, or
risk getting results which are outside your error bars.

And as long as we can ignore the terms in (v/c)^2 then the kinetic
energy is close enough to (1/2)mv^2 that we can take that as exact.

IOW it's only when v gets to a significant fraction of a percent of c
that Newton's laws start to look blurred.  Certainly, to pick one
example (made purely of straw), the Dean drive didn't move anything
nearly fast enough to qualify for the need for a relativistic correction.

In general, anything made of macroscopic mechanical parts which you can
actually operate in a laboratory is going to be operating in the domain
where Newton's laws are (apparently) exact.



 
 Regards,
 
 Robin van Spaandonk
 
 http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Harry Veeder]

- Original Message -
From: leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com
Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:21 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

 Indeed, there has been discussion of a draft like thing that involves
 either civil service, military service, or college.

do you get to choose what you study at college?

harry

 On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Kyle Mcallister
 kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 
  --- leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Being a young American citizen is a crime now, I
  suppose.
 
  Where have you been?  Being a kid has involved a
  significant lack of
  the normal human rights you normally get the moment
  you turn 18 for a
  LONG while now.
 
  Well, I was mostly referring to the age bracket
  targetted by these people, 18-25.
 
  and, this has been in the works for FOREVER.
 
  I don't doubt it.
 
  --Kyle
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[Esa Ruoho]

lets eat!

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:52 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote:
 Wow.

 Guys, put the pipes down.  Stop the bubbles.  Your dealers cut it with
 some REALLY nasty crap.

 On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 2:40 PM, J. Klum jk...@embarqmail.com wrote:
 Rhong Dhong wrote:

 Kyle McAllister Writes:

 +++
 Excuse me. I am in line. I do the best I can... I /TOW/ the line. I pay my
 taxes...I help people...I give ...We bought...and gave it...I drive...barely
 make ends meet, and yet I gave...
 fuck you...Take your discipline,...shove it...
 +++

 You sound like a fine fellow, a disciplined humanitarian; but you have a bad
 attitude and are making it easy for undisciplined louts to whine about a
 little national service.



 O's proposal is a step in the right direction.


 +++
 No it is not. You should read a bit about pre-WWII
 Germany.
 +++

 I assume you are talking about the HitlerJugend. Boy scouts from what I
 hear. Got the kids into clean country air, got them to clear brush, live in
 tents, take responsibility.

 Just what O wants to do.

 Stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.











 Funny Fellow Indeed and an all American Name to go with it!

 Kyle!

 We all know what is needed and that is to stock the Larder, Stock Pile the
 Ammo and Block all Entrances. Much to THERE future surprise we do indeed
 outnumber and will in the end prevail.

 Risking being placed on one of their lists of (no gooders, ala real
 Americans) give it up and do the right thing in the background, history
 prevails that surprise bests advance notice.

 I stand by you 100% even in the collapsed state of Washington my lawn will
 flow with fee loaders an thieves when the day of judgment comes.







-- 
esa juhani ruoho

Re: [Vo]:crazy

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Rhong Dhong rongdon...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I assume you are talking about the HitlerJugend. Boy
 scouts from what I hear. Got the kids into clean
 country air, got them to clear brush, live in tents,
 take responsibility.
 
 Just what O wants to do.
 
 Stop being part of the problem and start being part
 of the solution.

Until that clean country air was polluted with ash
from 6+ million souls. If O as you call him, or any
other American politician for that matter, wishes to
follow the trail of the NSDAP, I will never cease to
oppose them. Thus, I am part of the solution.

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[Kyle Mcallister]

--- Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:

  Why?
 
 Dunno -- maybe because it takes no thought, it's
 just regurgitating
 opinions which one already has.

I guess. It is more rewarding, I think, to do
experiments, however. Even if they don't do anything
revolutionary (most never will, and I know that), it
is a lot of fun.

Heck, last night consisted of two friends coming over
to:

1. Help me machine metal parts for an experiment.
2. Experiment with pyrodex charges to power said
experiment (impulses directed against a certain
apparatus...[Newton would roll in his grave hehe])
3. Cook food over a nice wood fire (grew the wood
myself, so this is zero carbon...don't fling darts at
me, people.)
4. Discuss construction and design of a very large
(and unusual) antenna for another experiment, while
they guys had a couple of cold Guinness. Refined man
that I am (cough), I stuck to Vonnegut's Breakfast of
Champions.

In short: science is fun.
 
 believing Mortimer was any kind of adequate
 experimentalist, not because
 he did experiments wrong, but because when he got
 results which flew in
 the face of 300 years of other people's results he
 just casually assumed
 *they* were wrong and *he* was right, without either
 trying really hard
 to find the source of his (very likely) error or,
 apparently, without so
 much as wondering how everybody else could have been
 so far wrong.

Okay, now I see what you're getting at. You're not
taking exception to the experiment itself, or even the
(admittedly small) chance it is a real anomaly, but
how he 'took it and run with it'. He did sort of
transition instantaneously from kiddie pool to Olympic
high dive, without first checking if the pool was
actually a shark tank.

 Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I realize that.
 
 So, I admit to it in this case.  And I won't say
 anything more about it
 with regard to Mortimer's effects, OK?

BTW, who's Mortimer? Heh, I'm only kidding. I know you
meant Morton. 
 
Anyways, I do not know what he found, exactly. I think
the two effects (which seem conventional) that I found
probably combined to confuse him. 

--Kyle


  

Re: [Vo]:Crazy?

[thomas malloy]

Rhong Dhong wrote:

I don't know why people are getting worked up about O's national service proposal: 


Americans need to get in line, toe the line, keep quiet, and obey orders. That 
sort of discipline would do wonders for them.

O's proposal is a step in the right direction.

 


Seig Heil

 





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