Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Che]

No wonder people despair -- when they don't just smirk, knowingly -- at the
world of Over-Unity research.

I have also long-time despaired at the general political naivete exhibited
in fora like vortex-L. Engineering and physics knowledge is not nearly
enough to see these sorts of efforts through to success, in such a world as
ours...



On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:40 PM, Russ George  wrote:

> That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the
> failure of IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this
> unless IH pays up the $89 million. Rossi is in the catbird seat as he is
> being seen to enforce his IP and license agreements which is a vital task
> under IP law. The courts usually take a very simple view of such matters if
> the payments are not made and infringements are shown then Rossi gets ALL
> his IP back and IH loses any licenses.
>
>
>
> Since Rossi has now proven his tech works and IH has proven that big money
> will invest, aka Woodward funds, Rossi will find it simple to raise similar
> sums. Good for him he has played very cool and straight with IH and it
> seems clear IH has not done the same. We shall have to see what the courts
> say but in the meantime Rossi owns it all and can move ahead. Worst case
> scenario for Rossi is IH pays up to retain the license.
>
>
>
> Given the obvious leaks that have been out prior to this document saying
> Rossi and IH were having difficulties someone on the inside has been
> playing a dark game against Rossi by feeding the trolls.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:11 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint
>
>
>
> See:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf
>

RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Roarty, Francis X]

Russ, nice assessment – I agree that letting IH back in would be worst case for 
Rossi but he may have to allow it if they cry honest mistake and immediately 
make good on the original agreement… Rossi is probably in negotiations already 
with larger industries that could roll his inventions out much faster if he can 
disengage himself from IH, Really obliging of Darden et all to release their 
rights so easily at this time when the IP valuation just soared through the 
roof.
Thank you IH!
Fran

From: Russ George [mailto:russ.geo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:40 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the failure of 
IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this unless IH pays up 
the $89 million. Rossi is in the catbird seat as he is being seen to enforce 
his IP and license agreements which is a vital task under IP law. The courts 
usually take a very simple view of such matters if the payments are not made 
and infringements are shown then Rossi gets ALL his IP back and IH loses any 
licenses.

Since Rossi has now proven his tech works and IH has proven that big money will 
invest, aka Woodward funds, Rossi will find it simple to raise similar sums. 
Good for him he has played very cool and straight with IH and it seems clear IH 
has not done the same. We shall have to see what the courts say but in the 
meantime Rossi owns it all and can move ahead. Worst case scenario for Rossi is 
IH pays up to retain the license.

Given the obvious leaks that have been out prior to this document saying Rossi 
and IH were having difficulties someone on the inside has been playing a dark 
game against Rossi by feeding the trolls.

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:11 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

See:

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf

RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Roarty, Francis X]

Wow! I would hope Rossi’s lawyer has actual evidence for these claims, if so 
Rossi may be short cutting their play and force an amicable settlement in 
everyone’s best interest.

[snip]Among other things, DARDEN, VAUGHN, IH and IPH have (a) disclosed the ECat
IP to LEONARDO's competitors; (b) attempted to utilize ROSSI and LEONARDO's 
trade
secrets outside of the scope ofthe limited License Agreement; and (c) attempted 
to misappropriate
the trade secrets by requesting a patent for ROSSI and LEONARDO's intellectual 
property in their
own name.” [/snip]

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:11 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

See:

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

"I think that Rossi feels that he has been deeply wronged in the past and
for some reason I.H. is/was trying to string him along on the payment of
the 89 million dollars owed him and he wasn't going to wait for any excuses
and filed as soon as he felt he might never see the money/profit he feels
he is due. He just wasn't going to be taken again. Obviously, just my own
take on what's going on.

Robert"

I suspect it's just ballsy fraud.  Rossi is probably just playing for a
settlement.  That's speculation of course, I have no inside knowledge.

So, who knows.   I think there is about a 5% chance it's real.

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Robert Dorr]

I think that Rossi feels that he has been deeply 
wronged in the past and for some reason I.H. 
is/was trying to string him along on the payment 
of the 89 million dollars owed him and he wasn't 
going to wait for any excuses and filed as soon 
as he felt he might never see the money/profit he 
feels he is due. He just wasn't going to be taken 
again. Obviously, just my own take on what's going on.


Robert Dorr
WA7ZQR




At 06:27 PM 4/6/2016, you wrote:
On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Blaze Spinnaker 
<blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote:


I am actually hopeful. Â 50x is pretty 
high.  It was installed in a customer site. 
  That's some crazy attempt at fraud.



I have a bad feeling about the lawsuit.  It 
does not make me any more confident in Rossi's 
account.  But I agree that if there is fraud, 
Rossi is now shooting for the moon.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
>
> Obviously, this all gets down to the data, in the end. Are there 2000
>> hours of reliable data for power out vs. power in ? If so, then this will
>> probably never go to trial – the Court will appoint an expert and the
>> verdict will be directed based on his finding.
>
>
> Maybe an out-of-court settlement will be IH's way of disengaging from
> Rossi and cutting ties.
>
> Eric
>
>
> Yeah, it'll either be a drawn out case or a settlement.   Rossi was
charging a lot more than just non payment.  He's got all sorts of fraud
counts in there.

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

Well, I was coming from the strong expectation that the report wasn't going
to show anything at all.

Though - from the perspective of the damage this can do to LENR in
general ,yeah, this could be very bad.

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Blaze Spinnaker  > wrote:
>
> I am actually hopeful.  50x is pretty high.  It was installed in a
>> customer site.   That's some crazy attempt at fraud.
>
>
> I have a bad feeling about the lawsuit.  It does not make me any more
> confident in Rossi's account.  But I agree that if there is fraud, Rossi is
> now shooting for the moon.
>
> Eric
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Jed Rothwell]

Russ George  wrote:


> It’s ridiculous to suggest that the people who wrote that very clean and
> clear set of legal claims are fools, that they don’t know the ropes, and
> have not done their homework with the data with competent help.
>

Regarding the technical claims, they could well be wrong. Look at Defkalion.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GamberaleLfinaltechn.pdf

Lawyers cannot judge such things.



> The idea that some ‘license HVAC or otherwise’ is what defines the
> intellect to be able to process the simple energy data on the mega E-Cat is
> simply preposterous.
>

Not a bit. As I said, look at Defkalion. If you set up a boiler without
preventing backflow there is no telling what your instruments will show.
They can be wrong by any factor. That's the mistake made by Defkalion
(assuming it was a mistake). There are dozens of other ways to get it
wrong. That is why boilers sometimes explode and people are killed.

That is why HVAC engineers have to pass rigorous examinations, and they
have to follow carefully defined procedures. I have seen those examinations
and I am pretty sure that if I tried to operate a large boiler manually, or
if I tried to test one, I would blow myself up. There are a lot of ways to
get it wrong, just as there are on a small scale doing laboratory bench
calorimetry.

Penon and Rossi's previous attempts to do calorimetry were dreadful.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

Obviously, this all gets down to the data, in the end. Are there 2000 hours
> of reliable data for power out vs. power in ? If so, then this will
> probably never go to trial – the Court will appoint an expert and the
> verdict will be directed based on his finding.


Maybe an out-of-court settlement will be IH's way of disengaging from Rossi
and cutting ties.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

10) If there is solid data over thousands of hours which backs Rossi’s
and Penon’s claim and the COP is much less – say 1.5 then it will be
a tough call but Rossi could win.

I got the sense that 6x COP was required for the payout

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

I am actually hopeful.  50x is pretty high.  It was installed in a customer
> site.   That's some crazy attempt at fraud.


I have a bad feeling about the lawsuit.  It does not make me any more
confident in Rossi's account.  But I agree that if there is fraud, Rossi is
now shooting for the moon.

Eric

RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Jones Beene]

From: Jed Rothwell 

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf


As a general rule in Lawsuits, when the answer to a particular complaint 
arrives, the reader will be shocked that the two parties are talking about the 
same set of facts. The next round of this tragi-comedy is partially predictable 
– since there is presently no valid scientific proof that Rossi has ever seen 
thermal gain from LENR. None, zero, nada. Plus, he is no stranger to the Legal 
system, and the attorneys of IH will want to have all of his sordid background 
introduced as evidence. 

One wonders if Rossi’s attorney is even aware of all of these details --- like 
the botched TEG research, Petrodragon, the convenient Lab fires, the criminal 
convictions? None of that may be relevant to this year-long test, agreed, but 
ALL of it could come out in court – to show a pattern of bad conduct over the 
years. 

Some further points to consider…

1)  Rossi has hired a reputable high powered-firm and he may not have told 
them much about his past, and they may not have suspected a pattern of bad 
conduct (which IH will allege). 
2)  There will be a proactive response from IH and it will likely be 
abundantly clear that they feel like Rossi has cheated and they may countersue 
for damages and to recover the past payment.
3)  There will probably be lack of real day-to-day data in the year long 
testing - which will shock any scientist. If Rossi has good data for gain, he 
will prevail. It is that simple and IH knows this. 
4)  If the “customer” is an invention, this will greatly compromise Rossi’s 
credibility.
5)  It is reasonable to expect that there will be allegations of faked 
data, if data exits at all. 
6)  Rossi will have a very difficult time finding an expert witness who is 
admissible as such, since few experts believe in LENR and all of them want to 
see real data.
7)  Penon is obviously no expert. His lack of qualifications and even legal 
status could become an issue. 
8)  There are certain rare situations when an attorney may withdraw from a 
case which include receiving false information from the client. For example, if 
the attorney has uncovered knowledge that the client is in the process of 
furthering criminal or fraudulent activity. That scenario cannot be ruled out 
here, even if rare.
9)  If there is real data of COP=50 for a significant period, then of 
course… the $100,000,000 is an absolute bargain ! and IH should have no trouble 
paying that, as the value of the invention would be much more. 
10) If there is solid data over thousands of hours which backs Rossi’s and 
Penon’s claim and the COP is much less – say 1.5 then it will be a tough call 
but Rossi could win.

Obviously, this all gets down to the data, in the end. Are there 2000 hours of 
reliable data for power out vs. power in ? If so, then this will probably never 
go to trial – the Court will appoint an expert and the verdict will be directed 
based on his finding. 

Only one thing is certain, the attorneys on both sides will have many billable 
hours at a rate that is shocking to experts in other fields.

RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Russ George]

Well one good thing is that this is moving into a formal intelligent arena 
where the postulations and pomposities of the peanut gallery will not be heard 
before the judge. Just real experts working with real data. It’s ridiculous to 
suggest that the people who wrote that very clean and clear set of legal claims 
are fools, that they don’t know the ropes, and have not done their homework 
with the data with competent help. The idea that some ‘license HVAC or 
otherwise’ is what defines the intellect to be able to process the simple 
energy data on the mega E-Cat is simply preposterous. In the court room the 
qualification of the ‘expert’ witnesses will be beyond reproach. The proof of 
the E-Cat data one way or the other is a days work for the court. It may take a 
week to beat the IP and license bits into what they really mean. All in all a 
trivial case to adjudicate.

 

I predict that as Rossi stays the course he will discover that IH will simply 
evaporate, unless they pay up and play nice. He is standing on firm very much 
higher ground and it will be trivial for him to carry on independently of IH 
which is likely what this action has already revealed he must do. I know from 
personal experience as an inventor with the VC world in such IP matters that it 
is a trying exercise to enforce agreements and my sympathy is with Rossi. I 
will help him however possible. His 350 day demo under the terms he performed 
it is an outstanding reference for both the man and his technology. 

 

This smacks of the typical VC vs inventor game where the VC’s are sure that the 
inventor is a schmuck at business… clearly Rossi is no such business schmuck, 
his history should clearly prove that. No one seems to like the idea of a guy 
like Rossi who can effectively wear both inventor and businessman hats well. 

 

The commentary about raising the questions about Rossi’s character are a 
perfect example of Troll behavior… read this fine piece on Trolls and check the 
mirror  
http://sciencecommunicationmedia.com/constructively-dealing-with-trolls-in-science-communication/

 

 

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:57 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

 

Russ George <russ.geo...@gmail.com <mailto:russ.geo...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the failure of 
IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this unless IH pays up 
the $89 million.

 

Only if: 1. Rossi has not misrepresented the contracts; and 2. Penon's report 
has merit. I know nothing about 1. Regarding 2, I have not seen the report, but 
I have doubts about Penon's abilities. Rossi's previous tests, including the 1 
MW test in Italy, were terrible. Very sloppy. Full of holes that could easily 
have been fixed. So I do not trust his technical judgement.

 

As I said here before, if you are a licensed HVAC engineer and you do things by 
the book, you will get the right answer. But Penon is not licensed and he seems 
incompetent. Rossi is clearly incompetent, in ways that I and many others such 
as the people from NASA pointed out. Unless and until we see this report we 
cannot judge, but I would not rule out a mistake or even fraud.

 

It is impossible to judge the technical merits of this argument without a 
careful examination of the Penon report. You might need to see more data than 
that.

 

- Jed

 

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Jed Rothwell]

More here:

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

anyways, let's wait for the rebuttal.

there are a lot missing exhibits in the filing, like the ERV report,
Darden's agreement to commence the test, etc.

Maybe the ERV report will 'leak out' and experts will be able to poke holes
for Darden.

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Jed Rothwell]

Here are some more court papers:

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

I am actually hopeful.  50x is pretty high.  It was installed in a customer
site.   That's some crazy attempt at fraud.

Maybe 71 is stated wrong, and it only surged to 50x.But if not, 50x
over the lifetime.. that's impressive an Rossi should get his due.

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Russ George  > wrote:
>
> That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the
>> failure of IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this
>> unless IH pays up the $89 million.
>>
>
> Only if: 1. Rossi has not misrepresented the contracts; and 2. Penon's
> report has merit. I know nothing about 1. Regarding 2, I have not seen the
> report, but I have doubts about Penon's abilities. Rossi's previous tests,
> including the 1 MW test in Italy, were terrible. Very sloppy. Full of holes
> that could easily have been fixed. So I do not trust his technical
> judgement.
>
> As I said here before, if you are a licensed HVAC engineer and you do
> things by the book, you will get the right answer. But Penon is not
> licensed and he seems incompetent. Rossi is clearly incompetent, in ways
> that I and many others such as the people from NASA pointed out. Unless and
> until we see this report we cannot judge, but I would not rule out a
> mistake or even fraud.
>
> It is impossible to judge the technical merits of this argument without a
> careful examination of the Penon report. You might need to see more data
> than that.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Jed Rothwell]

Russ George  wrote:

That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the failure
> of IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this unless IH
> pays up the $89 million.
>

Only if: 1. Rossi has not misrepresented the contracts; and 2. Penon's
report has merit. I know nothing about 1. Regarding 2, I have not seen the
report, but I have doubts about Penon's abilities. Rossi's previous tests,
including the 1 MW test in Italy, were terrible. Very sloppy. Full of holes
that could easily have been fixed. So I do not trust his technical
judgement.

As I said here before, if you are a licensed HVAC engineer and you do
things by the book, you will get the right answer. But Penon is not
licensed and he seems incompetent. Rossi is clearly incompetent, in ways
that I and many others such as the people from NASA pointed out. Unless and
until we see this report we cannot judge, but I would not rule out a
mistake or even fraud.

It is impossible to judge the technical merits of this argument without a
careful examination of the Penon report. You might need to see more data
than that.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Blaze Spinnaker]

lol.

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Russ George  wrote:

> That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the
> failure of IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this
> unless IH pays up the $89 million. Rossi is in the catbird seat as he is
> being seen to enforce his IP and license agreements which is a vital task
> under IP law. The courts usually take a very simple view of such matters if
> the payments are not made and infringements are shown then Rossi gets ALL
> his IP back and IH loses any licenses.
>
>
>
> Since Rossi has now proven his tech works and IH has proven that big money
> will invest, aka Woodward funds, Rossi will find it simple to raise similar
> sums. Good for him he has played very cool and straight with IH and it
> seems clear IH has not done the same. We shall have to see what the courts
> say but in the meantime Rossi owns it all and can move ahead. Worst case
> scenario for Rossi is IH pays up to retain the license.
>
>
>
> Given the obvious leaks that have been out prior to this document saying
> Rossi and IH were having difficulties someone on the inside has been
> playing a dark game against Rossi by feeding the trolls.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:11 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> 
> *Subject:* [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint
>
>
>
> See:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf
>

RE: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

[Russ George]

That is a very straight legal case Rossi reveals that points to the failure of 
IH to honor its contract. Rossi is clearly going to win this unless IH pays up 
the $89 million. Rossi is in the catbird seat as he is being seen to enforce 
his IP and license agreements which is a vital task under IP law. The courts 
usually take a very simple view of such matters if the payments are not made 
and infringements are shown then Rossi gets ALL his IP back and IH loses any 
licenses. 

 

Since Rossi has now proven his tech works and IH has proven that big money will 
invest, aka Woodward funds, Rossi will find it simple to raise similar sums. 
Good for him he has played very cool and straight with IH and it seems clear IH 
has not done the same. We shall have to see what the courts say but in the 
meantime Rossi owns it all and can move ahead. Worst case scenario for Rossi is 
IH pays up to retain the license. 

 

Given the obvious leaks that have been out prior to this document saying Rossi 
and IH were having difficulties someone on the inside has been playing a dark 
game against Rossi by feeding the trolls. 

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:11 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Copy of Rossi's civil complaint

 

See:

 

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf