Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
I have collected more data in a new run that seems to explain things (see chart below). Something took place around 1000 seconds and corrected around where the spike occurred (note that I removed some data from the first part of Run 1 to line up the curves at the start of the runs). The most likely probability to my mind is that the magnetic stir bar must have stopped spinning and restarted mixing the water layers again causing an apparent spike in the temperature. Jones suggested an experiment to oscillate between the top and bottom of the spike range, which I have started. Just from the start of this new run, it is clear that the first run was not tracking correctly from early on. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-16-13.png I'll keep experimenting, and if I find anything of interest, will report back. Thank you for the comments and suggestions that helped figure this out. On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Good point Robin. There could have been accumulating H2/O2 bubble formation that suddenly recombined (burned) to give the big jump in temperature. Jack has a neat Android based controller that lets him collect data by cell phone. I think we will be hearing more on his progress as time goes on. The real problem with simple electrolysis as a way of looking for thermal gain which is due to such things as Ni-H LENR - is that without a recombiner, you have two contradictory or self-cancelling influences... in the sense that high efficiency in water-splitting efficiency actually carries away significant amounts of heat from the cell, and makes the cell cooler than it otherwise would be. Thus, an inefficient cell for water-splitting in terms of liters of gas per minute, can show more thermal rise than an efficient cell for water-splitting unless the heat of the gas which bubbles off is accounted for. It usually is not. This is most problematic since thermal gain in the electrolyte should be an easy and reliable way to document the anomalous nickel-hydrogen reaction -IF- all the heat could be retained. A recombiner usually requires platinum, and thus is not seen too often in low-cost experiments. But there can be a work around in trying to maintain hydrogen on the cathode for as long as possible. However, that means manipulating the voltage to a minimum level, but catch-22 low voltage electrolysis is known to cool a cell on its own. More on this later: a milliwatt UV laser could be the answer. UV lasers are available for almost nothing these days, and using one could be a way to safely employ a sealed cell in which almost no extra energy from the laser recombines the gas a few times per second. -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png
RE: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Excellent work Jack, since this latest graph is starting to look suggestive for a real comparative thermal anomaly . Let's hope that this continues, since you are starting to see the thermal ratcheting effect which seems to be one the most reliable tells for gain in the Ni-H reaction - and you are seeing it in a situation (electrolysis) where minimal gain is expected under any circumstance (compared to a dedicated gas-phase reactor). It is not clear if Run 2 is a real ratcheting or not, but it sure looks like it, so far. (I'm assuming that it is the lower duty regime?) Jones From: Jack Cole I have collected more data in a new run that seems to explain things (see chart below). Something took place around 1000 seconds and corrected around where the spike occurred (note that I removed some data from the first part of Run 1 to line up the curves at the start of the runs). The most likely probability to my mind is that the magnetic stir bar must have stopped spinning and restarted mixing the water layers again causing an apparent spike in the temperature. Jones suggested an experiment to oscillate between the top and bottom of the spike range, which I have started. Just from the start of this new run, it is clear that the first run was not tracking correctly from early on. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-16-13.png I'll keep experimenting, and if I find anything of interest, will report back. Thank you for the comments and suggestions that helped figure this out. Jones Beene wrote: Good point Robin. There could have been accumulating H2/O2 bubble formation that suddenly recombined (burned) to give the big jump in temperature. Jack has a neat Android based controller that lets him collect data by cell phone. I think we will be hearing more on his progress as time goes on. The real problem with simple electrolysis as a way of looking for thermal gain which is due to such things as Ni-H LENR - is that without a recombiner, you have two contradictory or self-cancelling influences... in the sense that high efficiency in water-splitting efficiency actually carries away significant amounts of heat from the cell, and makes the cell cooler than it otherwise would be. Thus, an inefficient cell for water-splitting in terms of liters of gas per minute, can show more thermal rise than an efficient cell for water-splitting unless the heat of the gas which bubbles off is accounted for. It usually is not. This is most problematic since thermal gain in the electrolyte should be an easy and reliable way to document the anomalous nickel-hydrogen reaction -IF- all the heat could be retained. A recombiner usually requires platinum, and thus is not seen too often in low-cost experiments. But there can be a work around in trying to maintain hydrogen on the cathode for as long as possible. However, that means manipulating the voltage to a minimum level, but catch-22 low voltage electrolysis is known to cool a cell on its own. More on this later: a milliwatt UV laser could be the answer. UV lasers are available for almost nothing these days, and using one could be a way to safely employ a sealed cell in which almost no extra energy from the laser recombines the gas a few times per second. -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Jones, I don't know if we have a real ratcheting effect or not. I have it running like a simple thermostat. Turns the electrolysis on at a set temp and off at a set temp. With this method, you would only see ratcheting if there was heat after death. The other possibility to see it would be a decreasing amount of time that the electrolysis is turned on. Another possibility would be to compare to a control run. I would need to switch over to a fixed duty cycle to demonstrate a ratcheting effect more clearly. I think another possibility to produce the effect would be to run the electrolysis continuously while pulsing a joule heater at a fixed duty cycle within the cell. This would really be closer to an electrolytic analogue of the E-cat, because of the continuous presence of hydrogen. If I'm not mistaken, PF had some good results with pulsing a joule heater. Jack On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Excellent work Jack, since this latest graph is starting to looksuggestive for a real comparative thermal anomaly … ** ** Let’s hope that this continues, since you are starting to see the thermal “ratcheting effect” which seems to be one the most reliable “tells” for gain in the Ni-H reaction – and you are seeing it in a situation (electrolysis) where minimal gain is expected under any circumstance (compared to a dedicated gas-phase reactor). ** ** It is not clear if Run 2 is a real ratcheting or not, but it sure looks like it, so far. (I’m assuming that it is the lower duty regime?) ** ** Jones ** ** *From:* Jack Cole ** ** I have collected more data in a new run that seems to explain things (see chart below). Something took place around 1000 seconds and corrected around where the spike occurred (note that I removed some data from the first part of Run 1 to line up the curves at the start of the runs). The most likely probability to my mind is that the magnetic stir bar must have stopped spinning and restarted mixing the water layers again causing an apparent spike in the temperature. Jones suggested an experiment to oscillate between the top and bottom of the spike range, which I have started. Just from the start of this new run, it is clear that the first run was not tracking correctly from early on. ** ** http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-16-13.png ** ** I'll keep experimenting, and if I find anything of interest, will report back. Thank you for the comments and suggestions that helped figure this out. ** ** Jones Beene wrote: Good point Robin. There could have been accumulating H2/O2 bubble formation that suddenly recombined (burned) to give the big jump in temperature. Jack has a neat Android based controller that lets him collect data by cell phone. I think we will be hearing more on his progress as time goes on. The real problem with simple electrolysis as a way of looking for thermal gain which is due to such things as Ni-H LENR - is that without a recombiner, you have two contradictory or self-cancelling influences... in the sense that high efficiency in water-splitting efficiency actually carries away significant amounts of heat from the cell, and makes the cell cooler than it otherwise would be. Thus, an inefficient cell for water-splitting in terms of liters of gas per minute, can show more thermal rise than an efficient cell for water-splitting unless the heat of the gas which bubbles off is accounted for. It usually is not. This is most problematic since thermal gain in the electrolyte should be an easy and reliable way to document the anomalous nickel-hydrogen reaction -IF- all the heat could be retained. A recombiner usually requires platinum, and thus is not seen too often in low-cost experiments. But there can be a work around in trying to maintain hydrogen on the cathode for as long as possible. However, that means manipulating the voltage to a minimum level, but catch-22 low voltage electrolysis is known to cool a cell on its own. More on this later: a milliwatt UV laser could be the answer. UV lasers are available for almost nothing these days, and using one could be a way to safely employ a sealed cell in which almost no extra energy from the laser recombines the gas a few times per second. -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do
RE: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
From: Jack Cole I don't know if we have a real ratcheting effect or not. I have it running like a simple thermostat. Turns the electrolysis on at a set temp and off at a set temp. With this method, you would only see ratcheting if there was heat after death. Yes, that would be the expectation if LENR were involved. Since you are logging temperature over time, then it should be possible to determine if there is persistent heat after death by adding an indication on the chart - of when the power goes on and off; in order to show if - immediately after shutoff there is some kind of thermal continuity. Or - are you saying that you have looked for that already, and not seen it so far? Actually, it can be noted that the heat after death phenomenon - whatever it really consists of - is certainly involved in the ratcheting mechanism at a fundamental level . and there are a number or ways that it could show up in practice, so the thermostat method of control is probably an acceptable way to see it. This seems to be the beauty of your Android control setup - although I confess to not understanding exactly how you have implemented it. Jones
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Jones, Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png Best regards, Jack On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Jones. I just ordered one of those anodes. I am also going to cross check with a graphite anode. I was using standard nickels and a thoriated tungsten rod all plated with an extra layer of nickel as a cathode. I also added a small amount of nickel sulfate to the electrolyte after approximately 24 hours of run time. For my analysis above, I'm simply looking at the relative volume occupied by the iron oxide versus the water. If you use the equations for Q=mc(delta T), you can see that less energy is needed to cause the same amount of temperature change in iron oxide versus water. I do also think a lot of the heat was coming from oxidization throughout the run (as noted with the temperature checked on the anode vs. cathode with an IR thermometer). On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: ** ** *From:* Jack Cole ** ** This produced apparent (but false) excess heating of up to 50% in several of my experiments. Is this analysis sensible? ** ** Not so sure that this analysis is precise – but apparent gain could be due to iron as a consumable and must be eliminated. If iron is leaching, then gain would be due as much to oxidation as a change in heat capacity (a bit of both). ** ** There are ways to check. Simplest: you could use a nickel anode to cross-check… or plate the stainless or a copper anode with nickel or Pt or Pd. ** ** For an complementary anode - which may be as active as a nickel cathode - success has been seen with what is called MMO or “mixed metal oxide” coated titanium anodes … which are used in swimming pools and spa chlorinators and not too dear. ** ** I see one on eBay now for 15 bucks. ** ** http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMO-coated-expanded-titanium-mesh-anode-2-by-6-/171058056592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item27d3dacd90 ** ** Jones
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
In reply to Jack Cole's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 05:52:25 -0500: Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Jones, Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png Best regards, Jack [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Is there anything different about this setup from prior ones? Is the temp sensor is a different location, or attached differently? Any code changes, etc... Think hard about even the smallest change from earlier tests. -Mark Iverson -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com [mailto:mix...@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 3:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry In reply to Jack Cole's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 05:52:25 -0500: Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Jones, Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png Best regards, Jack [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: See this chart: http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/falseahe.jpg It would be nice to see a control run for comparison. Eric
RE: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Good point Robin. There could have been accumulating H2/O2 bubble formation that suddenly recombined (burned) to give the big jump in temperature. Jack has a neat Android based controller that lets him collect data by cell phone. I think we will be hearing more on his progress as time goes on. The real problem with simple electrolysis as a way of looking for thermal gain which is due to such things as Ni-H LENR - is that without a recombiner, you have two contradictory or self-cancelling influences... in the sense that high efficiency in water-splitting efficiency actually carries away significant amounts of heat from the cell, and makes the cell cooler than it otherwise would be. Thus, an inefficient cell for water-splitting in terms of liters of gas per minute, can show more thermal rise than an efficient cell for water-splitting unless the heat of the gas which bubbles off is accounted for. It usually is not. This is most problematic since thermal gain in the electrolyte should be an easy and reliable way to document the anomalous nickel-hydrogen reaction -IF- all the heat could be retained. A recombiner usually requires platinum, and thus is not seen too often in low-cost experiments. But there can be a work around in trying to maintain hydrogen on the cathode for as long as possible. However, that means manipulating the voltage to a minimum level, but catch-22 low voltage electrolysis is known to cool a cell on its own. More on this later: a milliwatt UV laser could be the answer. UV lasers are available for almost nothing these days, and using one could be a way to safely employ a sealed cell in which almost no extra energy from the laser recombines the gas a few times per second. -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Mark, the programming is the same as I have been using. The wiring is a little different as I am running directly from the power supply with this experiment instead of through the relay bank. The electrodes are placed a little higher than typical, so the temperature sensor is deeper in the cell than the electrodes. Usually, they are at approximately the same level in the cell. Still, I don't think any of this would account for that. I can think of two possibilities: 1) a malfunction of the temperature sensor, or 2) the magnetic stirrer could have stopped spinning at some point and then restarted causing the warmer upper layers to mix with the layers at the level of the sensor. I have no way of knowing about #2 (it was spinning when I checked it later and was to start out). On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: Is there anything different about this setup from prior ones? Is the temp sensor is a different location, or attached differently? Any code changes, etc... Think hard about even the smallest change from earlier tests. -Mark Iverson -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com [mailto:mix...@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 3:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry In reply to Jack Cole's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 05:52:25 -0500: Hi, At 11350 seconds it suddenly flattens off. The curve after the jump appears to be a continuation of the curve before 11350 seconds. This gives me the impression that something changed at about 11350 seconds which was restored during the jump. Perhaps something like a change in conductivity /or bubble formation at 11350 seconds that released just before the jump? Jones, Here is the run overnight with the graphite anode replacing the stainless steel. That temperature jump about half way through seems intriguing. I've never seen it do that before. It occurred over 90 seconds. http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/6-15-13.png Best regards, Jack [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Yes, I will do that after I finish running another experiment tonight. On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: See this chart: http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/falseahe.jpg It would be nice to see a control run for comparison. Eric
RE: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
From: Jack Cole This produced apparent (but false) excess heating of up to 50% in several of my experiments. Is this analysis sensible? Not so sure that this analysis is precise - but apparent gain could be due to iron as a consumable and must be eliminated. If iron is leaching, then gain would be due as much to oxidation as a change in heat capacity (a bit of both). There are ways to check. Simplest: you could use a nickel anode to cross-check. or plate the stainless or a copper anode with nickel or Pt or Pd. For an complementary anode - which may be as active as a nickel cathode - success has been seen with what is called MMO or mixed metal oxide coated titanium anodes . which are used in swimming pools and spa chlorinators and not too dear. I see one on eBay now for 15 bucks. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMO-coated-expanded-titanium-mesh-anode-2-by-6-/1710 58056592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMO-coated-expanded-titanium-mesh-anode-2-by-6-/171 058056592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item27d3dacd90 hash=item27d3dacd90 Jones
Re: [Vo]:One peril of thermometry
Thanks Jones. I just ordered one of those anodes. I am also going to cross check with a graphite anode. I was using standard nickels and a thoriated tungsten rod all plated with an extra layer of nickel as a cathode. I also added a small amount of nickel sulfate to the electrolyte after approximately 24 hours of run time. For my analysis above, I'm simply looking at the relative volume occupied by the iron oxide versus the water. If you use the equations for Q=mc(delta T), you can see that less energy is needed to cause the same amount of temperature change in iron oxide versus water. I do also think a lot of the heat was coming from oxidization throughout the run (as noted with the temperature checked on the anode vs. cathode with an IR thermometer). On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: ** ** *From:* Jack Cole ** ** This produced apparent (but false) excess heating of up to 50% in several of my experiments. Is this analysis sensible? ** ** Not so sure that this analysis is precise – but apparent gain could be due to iron as a consumable and must be eliminated. If iron is leaching, then gain would be due as much to oxidation as a change in heat capacity (a bit of both). ** ** There are ways to check. Simplest: you could use a nickel anode to cross-check… or plate the stainless or a copper anode with nickel or Pt or Pd. ** ** For an complementary anode - which may be as active as a nickel cathode - success has been seen with what is called MMO or “mixed metal oxide” coated titanium anodes … which are used in swimming pools and spa chlorinators and not too dear. ** ** I see one on eBay now for 15 bucks. ** ** http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMO-coated-expanded-titanium-mesh-anode-2-by-6-/171058056592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item27d3dacd90 ** ** Jones
