Re: Wave and Incubation
he's dead jim .. On Mar 14, 2015 9:56 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Wave has been incubating for some years now, and, unfortunately, has not shown a level of growth that, in my opinion, would suggest that it is likely to reach graduation from the Incubator. Unfortunately, I think it is time we accept that Wave is unlikely to reach graduation, and should retire. To explain what this means - as I understand it, the ASF repo would be marked read-only, and after a period of time, the lists disabled. The code would, however, remain open-source, and any person, or group of people would be free to fork the code and continue with it elsewhere, e.g. Github/Sourceforge/etc. In the end, this is a decision of the Incubator PMC, however I’d like to see whether anyone here has any thoughts to add before I put this to the wider Incubator community. Upayavira P.S. This came up on the incubator-general list as a part of a discussion on the Wave report
Re: Review Request 25209: Implements WAVE-420 - Allows to customize the welcome message on the login page.
being able to customize the welcome page ? to what extent ? i might have to turn my wave server on for this ;) On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Yuri Zelikov vega...@gmail.com wrote: --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://reviews.apache.org/r/25209/#review54392 --- Any comments? - Yuri Zelikov On Aug. 30, 2014, 11:42 a.m., Yuri Zelikov wrote: --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://reviews.apache.org/r/25209/ --- (Updated Aug. 30, 2014, 11:42 a.m.) Review request for wave, Andrew Kaplanov and Ali Lown. Bugs: WAVE-420 https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WAVE-420 Repository: wave Description --- Implements WAVE-420 - Allows to customize the welcome message on the login page - by moving the html into /static/welcome-fragment.html and loading it with javascript. This basically allows to change the html in the fragment without the need to recompile the GXP. Diffs - src/org/waveprotocol/box/server/gxp/AuthenticationPage.gxp d8791d4 src/org/waveprotocol/box/server/rpc/AuthenticationServlet.java 49d5964 war/static/loadHtmlFragment.js PRE-CREATION war/static/welcome-fragment.html PRE-CREATION Diff: https://reviews.apache.org/r/25209/diff/ Testing --- Recompiled GXP and checked that the login page is displayed correctly. Thanks, Yuri Zelikov
Re: [VOTE] To stay or not to stay
i vote to not stay, to move wave away from apache. On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Ewan Slater ewan.sla...@googlemail.comwrote: Et moi aussi. Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Abstention due to my limited experience of either ASF Incubator and GitHub. Though, I want is a better future for Wave. On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: It seems to me that the time has come to make a decision here, and for now, I'm going to ask that we consider just one simple question: * Should Wave stay within Apache, or leave. I'm going to ask that we postpone any discussion about either option that isn't required to make the decision, until the vote is complete. If discussion is to occur, please move it to a separate thread, to keep the [VOTE] thread clean. I'm going to suggest that this vote runs for 72hrs, and that we aim for consensus. Should anyone wish to change their vote based upon the votes of others, that's fine, only your last vote will count. I'm going to suggest that for this vote to succeed, we'll need full consensus of committers/PPMC members. Community votes are also very much welcome, but committer/PPMC votes will be the ones that make up the final tally. If this vote does not receive a consensus, then the status quo will continue until another event occurs to change it. I myself am not going to vote, as I see this as a vote for those who feel ownership of the project and its codebase. I couldn't make an impartial vote anyway. So, here's your chance to cast your votes: [ ] Wave should stay at Apache [ ] Wave should leave Apache, and find a home elsewhere Thanks, Upayavira -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: Incubation status
i think the most usefull reason to move to github, is that one of the only active coders feels like doing it .. hence we should support that person :) On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: But for that commitment, we need more consensus about what Wave should try to be Is there really a lack of consensus here? I think , imho, we have a consensus, just not the skill/time. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 2 December 2013 16:51, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Christian, Although I support the incubator's goals, it seems that there is probably a fundamental mismatch between the state of Apache Wave and where and how Wave needs to develop. I am one of the people who had to stand back from Wave a while back. I was enthusiastic about the possibility of Apache acting as a strong framework for Wave, but it seems that it's at the wrong stage of development to benefit from everything that Apache offers. I must also admit that the new Gmail inbox doesn't draw me to forum posts as much as it used to. The community tools of Apache aren't getting my attention, for whatever reason. Wave is trying to define lots of new bits of technology that don't necessarily have a fixed architecture yet or even a place in other fixed architectures. Months later, we're still at a point where we have a body of code that's still largely a specific user client rather than an agile development platform that can enable a wide variety of apps via a common set of communications and data management protocols and standards. Most importantly from my own perspective, it's not moved significantly towards an architecture that could be strongly mobile first with both synchronous and asynchronous publishing. So for me, it's not meeting the goals of what Wave 3.0 could be. At the same time you have initiatives like Motorola's Project Ara for open source mobile hardware development that would be ideal for some of the things that Wave could do in developing nations, as well as open source mobile OS initiatives, so open and mobile as a combination are progressing. I wish that I were still an active coder (sometimes), but I am not, and I am not going to be able to reach my goals without committed coders. But for that commitment, we need more consensus about what Wave should try to be in an increasingly crowded market for collaborative services. From that perspective, Wave seems to need a bit more direction than the Apache framework can manage at this point. There's not a body of code that meets a well defined market objective - that's a profile for success in Apache, it seems, looking at some of the other projects. Open or not, every platform must find a need and fill it. Finally, since commitment seems to be partially a factor of funding, perhaps a more independent project on Github (assuming that there are no remnant Google claims) might make it easier for independent teams to attract funding via crowdsourcing platforms once a more concrete goal has been defined. Once such a project met with some initial success, perhaps there could be a body of code that could be nurtured in the Apache framework at a later time. I am sorry to have dropped out of this loop, but I have had to focus on money-generating opportunities more intently, if I could balance that with Wave a bit more easily then it would be easier to focus, no doubt. But life goes on, and I know that Wave will always go on. If there are team members who feel that I can contribute positively in this transition, feel free to stay in touch. All the best, John Blossom email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 5:02 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian ---
Re: Wave Kickstarter
the beauty of joseph trying to do a kickstarter to essentially restart development on a 'spiritual' successor to wave is actually wave could still stay in asf, as a legacy fallback option. i feel like joseph manning up and really trying to set some real focus to his own coding goals will be a win-win for everybody. the real question is whats the best way to support the coders. On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: In defence of the team, it always takes awhile to figure out what the best way to modularize a software project is when you're implementing a new idea. The right abstractions always seem obvious in retrospect, but until you've thought about it a lot its not obvious at all. For example, moving from apache+cgi_bin - apache+mod_php - python+wsgi / ruby+rack - ruby+sinatra / nodejs took _years_ of iteration. -J On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: Assuming the protocol still maintains waves ability's; *open *federated *selective sharing (that is, sharing X with just a few people) *realtime Wave should be the name given to the server to server protocol, imho, but not much else. Google made the mistake of calling everything wave. The server to server protocol, the client and the conversation thread in the client. That was just silly really. Ideally anything developed should maintain server to server compatibility with Apaches. But, at this point, if this project takes off better then it would be upto Apache's java server to adapt to this ones. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 2 December 2013 20:30, Patrick Coleman patcole...@google.com wrote: The proposal seems to include rewriting the OT stack, changing the language(s) the client and server are written in, and moving to github. If this is the case, is there any point in still being called Wave? It sounds like not much will be able to be transferred other than knowledge, so is there any reason to not just create a kickstarter for GentleWare (or whatever you want to call it :p)? I guess it is still a wave-y project, but this is kind of like the Theseus's paradox of project naming. (although I'm not that familiar with licensing concerns, so maybe there's part of the federation protocol or the OT spec which can only be used by 'Wave' in which case it makes sense).
Re: Incubation status
Ali , YES do all of that , and make a post about it on your wave server :) im tensy on there btw, actually ive been running a wave server for a while and the one thing im still hung up on is ssl and federation.. i think the biggest thing Everyone on this list could do is to get a wave server up and running on whatever computer they have.. and just run it and play with it , and have them all federated / talking to eachother. Lets all use wave, i know im sounding like a broken record here but its amazing how few people actually go ahead and setup a wave server even ? On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: @Christian: You have summarised it well for me, in the despite repeated attempts to get a community, Wave has been unable to sustain active development here. @Thomas, Jon Am I the only person who is actively still setting up wave servers? (Correct me if I am wrong on this). Setting up RC4 to run, is now about as simple as possible to make Wave function - given the complexity assosciated with what it can do, and the variation in set-ups people seem to want. So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions with people to cover a) Running a server b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT coders around. Ali (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p) On 29 November 2013 13:41, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of commits it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back? For me personally its the learning curve that comes with a massive codebase and little documentation or even overview of how the classes etc relate to each other. Comprehending that takes time in itself and you need to do that before you can actually start contributing in a meaningful way. If I were to tackle wave in the same way I've tackled other projects with massive code bases. I would start with a skeleton, basic functionality. Then build it up by taking components that have already been developed and documenting it as I go connecting it all together. I know you cant do that with Wave but better documentation on how to get the client/server up and running in a consistent way locally, will help people, whoever setup the demo servers on the incubator page could probably do that. You can expand on it form there.
Re: Incubation status
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote: Thomas, Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts, they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought, also defaulted to being recorded. I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command and mouse movement
Re: Incubation status
robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the purpose of wave has been lost. wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use itself doesnt that seem a bit silly? an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions). but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they can interact with the waves you have shared with that account. i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote: Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use wave might be self defeating. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Thomas, Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts, they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought, also defaulted to being recorded. I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command and mouse movement -- Kelly Brumbelow
Re: Incubation status
ok , what i would like to know. who among you on this mailing list is actually using wave in some capacity ? and for what ? do you run your own wave server ? if not why ? personally i run my own wave server, and use it mainly as a google doc replacement. robert, first off which people are you talking about ? people on this list ? or the general populace? if people on this list are too scared to dip there toes into something that may have a few bugs then we are certainly doomed. robert, you are right but you are also wrong, your right in that the way your talking about is nice and orderly and logical. the problem is , expecting all of that will never happen unless you personally do so. what i am proposing is for people to get there hands dirty in any way possible. can you code? great wave needs coders more then anything. but if you cant code, you can atleast use wave and get an idea for what works and what doesnt, what the bugs are, wave needs people to use it just as much as it needs people to make code for it at this point. get your hands dirty, thats all im asking also to answer your question : I DO draw in new users, maybe not at the level or speed any of you deem worthy, but i use wave to share documents with people. as i said i make a dummy account and then have my friends use it to view a document id like them to look at. is it ideal? not at all, but then again wave is not at a point in its software development for there to be anything like an ideal. the point is to use , and to figure out how it can be usefull in its current state, rather then bickering about what it needs to be everyone's dream software. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote: Fleeky, i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. [sic] Probably because you have flawed presuppositions. I assume people who have never seen Wave have never seen Wave, not that they know how to use it. When teaching someone to drive a car, I have them observe, read, study, and after they have done the prerequisites I would put them in a training car. People want to see what Wave can do before they jump in and use it frequently. I am glad you have done all these things on your own, but tell me how is having done them yourself drawing in new users and developers along with generating interest? It may be happening, I don't see it. I am not talking about dogfooding, I am talking about intro and basic training so people can get up to speed. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the purpose of wave has been lost. wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use itself doesnt that seem a bit silly? an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions). but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they can interact with the waves you have shared with that account. i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use wave might be self defeating. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Thomas, Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts, they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought, also defaulted to being recorded. I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command and mouse movement -- Kelly Brumbelow -- Kelly Brumbelow
Re: Incubation status
christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no, its not working out ? pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs right now, not patience. i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago. theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it searchable by google and everyone esle. federation should make propogating this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the discussion. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote: i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you probably have not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All discussions must held public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is mailing lists. Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment. Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are a lot of requirements to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these requirements. We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood these requirements and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet. This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF the right place? Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and become an ASF project? This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the willingness of people. It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not. Christian fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use wave might be self defeating. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Thomas, Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts, they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought, also defaulted to being recorded. I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command and mouse movement -- Kelly Brumbelow --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
thomas, i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start to fix things. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very long discussion threads with lots of comments? I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was final. Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no, its not working out ? pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs right now, not patience. i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago. theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it searchable by google and everyone esle. federation should make propogating this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the discussion. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote: i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you probably have not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All discussions must held public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is mailing lists. Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment. Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are a lot of requirements to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these requirements. We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood these requirements and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet. This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF the right place? Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and become an ASF project? This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the willingness of people. It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not. Christian fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use wave might be self defeating. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Thomas, Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts, they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought, also defaulted to being recorded. I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke
Re: Incubation status
very simple workaround, have everyone reply to everything in one blip, but to append there name to things they say. this way you keep blip count low. the state of wave imo is that its a blank slate, you have to impose your own organizational structure onto each wave, and how you do that dictates how things work in that particular wave. that is the beauty and also the problem of it. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: thomas, i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start to fix things. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.comwrote: So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very long discussion threads with lots of comments? I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was final. Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no, its not working out ? pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs right now, not patience. i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago. theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it searchable by google and everyone esle. federation should make propogating this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the discussion. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote: i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing. If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you probably have not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All discussions must held public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is mailing lists. Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment. Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are a lot of requirements to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these requirements. We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood these requirements and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet. This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF the right place? Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and become an ASF project? This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the willingness of people. It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not. Christian fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote: Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use wave might be self defeating. On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is a problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your problem. -fleeky On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote
Re: Incubation status
i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
@Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). this is precisely Why we have to dogfood it, because when the problems happen in something semi critical like a discussion about wave it will more likely get fixed. im glad someone is finally bringing all of this up though, it needed to be said. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:18, Ali Lown wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Sad :-| Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). The Incubator has a specific goal. Maybe once the project has an active (developing!) community again, the ASF might be the right place again. One large benefit speaking for such an org as the ASF is that we maintain a clean IP. Its reducing risk for companies. However, if you start carefully with that at GitHub too its no problem. Not even to come back. (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) In ASF terms it goes to the attic which is a read-only repository. The code there remains in AL 2.0. With AL 2.0 it is possible for you to fork it to GitHub which is more or less what happens. You can work on the code as you like and release your own packages in the way you like. However you can't simply change the license of some existing code. I don't know the specifics but if you plan to change the license it's better to ask some other folks here at the ASF. If want to keep AL 2.0 which I would love, then no problem. There will be one issue to solve which is the trademarks thing. To my knowledge the trademark has been transferred to the ASF. We need to ask at Apache Branding if you want to keep the current names. Usually the ASF keeps trademarks. In example, the Apache iBatis project renamed itself to MyBatis after moving away. However in incubating projects I have seen people taking away the names too, like Zeta Components. Once this has been cleared it should be no problem for you to move on. Please note that you should set up a new mailinglist before the retirement happens. ML are closed once the project retires. And you certainly want to get people moving to the new resource before that happens. Please let me know if you have any more questions. Cheers Christian @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain
Re: Why does nobody vote on the release? (was: Fwd: Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC4)
joseph, the latest rc does do federation. also is more stable. christian, i still personally think we need to do things on wave. trying to get people to use wave and not using it ourselves is silly. now we also have federation, so what should really happen is a big push for everyone to upgrade to the current release and to figure out how to federate with eachother. i am currently working on that, my server skills are still a bit weak though so it will take me a bit but i definitely plan to get federation working on my end and then to connect to as many other wiab servers as possibles.. once that happens i think i will try to keep atleast some kind of mirrored discussion, that keeps up on the topics of this mailing list. also, people should idle on irc more on irc.freenode.net #wiab. there are fun interesting talks happening everynow and then :) fleeky On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Am 12.09.13 20:35, schrieb Ali Lown: It seems nobody else is able to give feedback at this point. Christian raised some things that are worth doing, so I may as well start again with RC5, which I will push up in a few weeks time. [It is a bit too busy for me ATM.] Hopefully, by being a bit later, people won't be on holiday, so will be able to review it. :P I would say save the time for now. It has been 2 weeks time for voting. This project has seen messages. It's september, not mid of august. We got 1 (!) community vote. Vincente mentioned he is away (thats fine) and John is not so much into gory technical details (accepted so far). But where were the others? Is it really holidays which prevents the vote? Do we ALL have holidays at the same time? Before we move on with a new RC, i would like to know from the people listed here: http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wave why they didn't vote.** Was it really holidays? No interest? No time? It has been *a lot* of work for Ali to deal with the ASF release procedures and kick out multiple RCs. It would be worth to know if he should continue and if there will be any voters in the future. If there is nobody who is willing to open a zip file, look into it and send out a +1, then its really alarming. It took me 30 minutes or so to check the release. This is not so much. I have hoped the excitement in the project after John and a few others appeared was so big that we would have managed to get a new release out for review. If others, maybe Incubator Shepherds* look at this project now, they would think: no community. Please let me - us - know what you who are on the list above prevented to vote**. Cheers*** Christian * Incubator Shepherds are Incubator PMC people, who look independently from the mentor on the activity of the project and provide a second insight for the report ** Of course I don't want you to speak out anything which should be kept private - remember this is a public list. I just want to know: is there a realistic chance that we ever get more than 3 votes? 3 are required to get it out, but given the huge list of committers we should get more votes. *** I am not a native speaker - and I hope my email doesn't sound to angry. I am not. I would be dissappointed if it finally turns out that we have lost the energy and steam of the past days I was happy a few RCs ago, and I mailed to say so. If most of the changes are in licensing files, well, whatever. I haven't tried to install the current RC. The thing I'd want to check is federation, but unless anything has changed in the last couple years, I expect it to be a nightmare to set up. And without manually trying that out, I don't have any more comments to add. Thats my thoughts, since you asked for them. J Ali
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC4
ive been testing it and so far so good, i say +1 vote for release On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Does anybody else have any thoughts, comments, test results, etc. For this release candidate? Ali On 30 Aug 2013 23:21, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: The time has finally come, after many weeks of anticipation: RC4 is now available for review. Major changes include: - More licensing fixes - Federation works - New and updated translations - And more... Artifacts can be found here: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc4/ (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f $f.sha') This is taken from tag 0.4-rc4: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/tags/0.4-rc4 A summary of useful information can be found in RELEASE-NOTES, and a list of changes in CHANGES at the above artifact distribution url, as well as being included in the tarballs/zips.(zipballs?) If you could test these on some other machines and provide some feedback, that would be great. This vote will close around GMT 3rd June 2013. [ ] +1 Release it! [ ] +0 OK, but... [ ] -0OK, but you really should fix [ ] -1Definitely not because... Thanks. Ali
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC4
im about to test so i cant vote yet. hi there, im updating my server as we spea., is there a tutorial somewhere to get the federation working ? and who else has a server with federation enabled so i can connect to them :) On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: This seems to have been quite quiet again... I will be bumping this each day until we get some votes :) Ali On 31 Aug 2013 09:15, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: Heh. I changed the day, but not the month. It should read 3rd September 2013 Ali Ps. Time travel will be included with the next version (that reminds me, we still haven't got playback implemented). On 31 Aug 2013 09:01, Angus Turner ad...@theangus.org wrote: You forgot to change the vote closing date, unless time travel was part of this release :) Thanks Angus Turner h...@theangus.org On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: The time has finally come, after many weeks of anticipation: RC4 is now available for review. Major changes include: - More licensing fixes - Federation works - New and updated translations - And more... Artifacts can be found here: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc4/ (Remember checksums are from 'gpg --print-md SHA512 $f $f.sha') This is taken from tag 0.4-rc4: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/tags/0.4-rc4 A summary of useful information can be found in RELEASE-NOTES, and a list of changes in CHANGES at the above artifact distribution url, as well as being included in the tarballs/zips.(zipballs?) If you could test these on some other machines and provide some feedback, that would be great. This vote will close around GMT 3rd June 2013. [ ] +1 Release it! [ ] +0 OK, but... [ ] -0OK, but you really should fix [ ] -1Definitely not because... Thanks. Ali
Re: Demo Server
will it be possible to run multiple experiments on one server ? i doubt it but just thought i would ask. i would love to run a bleeding edge wave server since the one i already run doesnt get *that* much use. On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: When the time comes, I'm prepared to have the necessary conversations to see about a VM at Apache. Upayavira On Fri, Jun 21, 2013, at 11:38 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote: Yes the point would be to get federation up and running. An providing a place where we can deploy our new OT containers that will need to communicate in a distributed way. On 6/21/13 3:35 PM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) sten...@gmail.com wrote: That sounds good. Would it be interesting to apply for a VM at apache for that? I was thinking on doing so if/when the email bot is finished... (so that both email and wave discussions of the Apache Wave group can happen under the umbrella of Apache) Also, are you planning on enabling federation in some of those servers? Either way, thanks for the efforts. On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: All, As soon as we have a release, I am going to put the stable release on two servers. One will be my personal server. Another one will be a server hosted by my company. I think we we have a couple environments up and running it will help. Also, I may be able to set up some sandboxes where we can actually deploy some of our experiments when we start looking at P2P / Server / Hybrid OT. ~Michael -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Email bridge bot
uhh, wow that is Amazing actually! On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Zachary “Gamer_Z.” Yaro zmy...@gmail.comwrote: That looks fantastic! —Zachary “Gamer_Z.” Yaro On Jun 21, 2013 4:24 PM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) sten...@gmail.com wrote: I finally added *proper* support for inline replies. Keep in mind the bot is still only converting from wave to email (not the other way around). Here's the result: http://imgur.com/a/Dkefp On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) sten...@gmail.com wrote: So I've been working on this for the past days. Still a work-in-progress, and will need at least another week of development hours (read: 2-4 weeks of actual time) before we can really think about migrating to wave. The apache mailing list is rejecting the emails from my bot, it thinks they're spam. So for the time being, here's a screenshot-based preview: http://imgur.com/a/GtGY6 -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Wave and OpenOffice
john, i was infact using wave as a google docs replacement for a while it worked pretty good the only problem i had with it was that i couldnt 'publish' static updates to a front facing page to share with people who didnt feel like registering on my wave server. an openoffice for wave would be extremely usefull, and could have an extremely large impact imo. wave is also already very very close to having this funcitonality. etherpad lite sortof already does this, but i kept going back to wave because it was actually more responsive, featurefull, and actually crashed less. On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 9:29 AM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: I had the down-the-road thought just now that I wanted to put into circulation before I forgot about it. One of the challenges that we will face in developing open source Wave is that Google and others - but mostly Google - are out there using operational transform technologies also. So far the Google Drive Realtime API hasn't had much impact, but it's being demoed successfully in Drive apps like Docs and Presentations. The advantages of an open source Wave implementation are, of course, that people can own their own data and identity management without having to rely on a specific vendor's infrastructure. But the flip side of that is that you have to look carefully at infrastructure that integrates OT and understand what you have to do similarly to showcase your technologies. That brings me to OpenOffice. At some point it will be beneficial to consider how the Wave API can enable apps in the OpenOffice suite to take advantage of OT technologies in Wave and its other various features. In fact, it's not unthinkable that an OpenOffice for Wave variant might not be feasible at some point, maintaining a familiar office automation paradigm as a user interface for those who relate to that sort of tool but having the power of Wave to drive collaborative document editing, comments, embedded apps and so on, with Wave data structures underneath the OO interface. Just idle thoughts for now, but if we make good progress over the next several months, it's a sub-project that may help to attract more developers to Wave technologies. All the best, John Blossom
Re: A Call To Developers
it would be nice to get things like rizzoma to be all the way open source since they seem to have really attempted to make something useable out of wave. i think its a great idea to bring the code together and also the coders actually working on wave in some form or another, its yet to be seen if they can come together but if they could i think they could really produce something game changing. On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: All I can say is, well said. We need to consider Wave as a young project - one that really doesn't yet have anything set in stone. I've heard Apache described as a 'do-ocracy', that is, he who does, decides. If there's an approach you think would be good, start coding, show us your work (stick it on Github or somewhere), and we can see about getting it a place in the Wave repo itself. In the end, what the Wave project exists for is to release products. To release products, we need real code. Let's get started with some experiments that, if successful, can eventually morph into real products. Upayavira On Wed, Jun 12, 2013, at 09:04 PM, Thomas Wrobel wrote: I have been working on a geolocation (/augmented reality) specific Wave project: arwave.org I am not sure how suitable this is. Its effectively a client that I (badly) want to be compatible with any standard wave server. As there was no standard client/server protocol for the last few years, I gave up, and instead made it work with XMPP/jabber chat. Obviously, losing persistency along the way and crippling its usefulness. Would this project fit under the apache wave umbrella? I still want to make it a wave server client - but untill the servers have the protocol in place to allow that, it will be effectively just a xmpp client for a specific use. -Thomas Wrobel. ps. Of course, I am happy to help out any wave developments I am skilled enough to do anyway. On 12 June 2013 21:48, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: Wavers, It has become clear that there a MANY more people are interested in Wave that we had previously thought. There recent explosion of interest is fantastic. However, what I am seeing is that the wave community is splintered and fragmented. There are a lot of people who have been doing development work on wave related concepts like OT, federation, etc outside of Apache Wave. Maybe they thought they were not welcome. Maybe they though the existing code base was headed in the wrong direction. Maybe they thought we would not be open to their project ideas. Who knows. Whatever the reason, there have been many side projects all over the web some how related to wave. Either inspired by wave, or developed to explore some alternative to the way wave did something. I would like to try to unite these efforts in to one umbrella project. From a code base perspective, we can create multiple folders in our repository were proof of concepts and side projects can exist along side WiaB. If this drives activity and interest to Apache Wave, then fantastic. Sure we would love to have 20 people jump in and help us with the current issues directly in WiaB. If people want to do that, by all means PLEASE HELP. But if that is not what you are interested in, but you ARE interested in some other path forward, please join our community. Please use Apache Wave as your home to develop Wave technology. Be it OT, Clients, Protocols, what have you. There is nothing that says the WiaB in its current form has to be the only product produced by this project. We could have a generic core OT Engine / API that powers wave. We could have the core server that leverages this engine. We could have multiple clients, etc. I specifically named the project Apache Wave and not Apache Wave in a Box, because the vision was the eventually this project would become the home of a whole ecosystem of wave related things. If there is one current truth, it is that none of our groups has been independently successful in developing and distributing a widely used and adopted OT based collaboration project. I think together we can be more successful than apart. Yes that means we have to hash things out on the mailing list occasionally, but I think we are all open to input from anyone. If we can create a place for side projects, then perhaps people will be more free to bring their ideas and efforts here. To that end, I would put a call out to people who are currently working on related projects to officially joint the Apache Wave community. Contribute some code, whatever that may be. Help start a proof of concept for an OT Engine, work on the client server protocol, whatever you want to do, come do it here. Together we can keep our collective momentum. Become a committer
Re: Future of Apache wave [Was: Re: Advantages of P2P messaging?]
personally for me, ecpecially with the recent whistleblowing about the nsa i see a real need for secure decentralized/federated communication platforms that are easy and attractive to use, if wiab could be run on everyones phone desktop or server it would allow the largest possible cross-section of people to adopt and use this great idea. i specifically say idea because that is what initially attracted to me about wiab when it became open source, it was cool tech that could be run by anyone (anyone technically inclined anyway). as far as the future of wiab, it seems to me that a more p2p rather then client server approach could benefit wiab's adoption. That said i wonder if there is the man power for that, it may be a better idea to develop the ideas behind wiab further and once you have a larger developer base to try to refactor it. that said i think all it really takes is one or two obsessed coders to really make a difference. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: Dave, I guess the question I would ask before going down this road isŠ what is the problem that you are currently seeing in WIAB that you would attributed to either the OT Algorithm and/or its implementation? What problem are we trying to solve through option 1/2? ~Michael On 6/11/13 9:25 PM, Dave w...@glark.co.uk wrote: Cool. Thanks Michael. I guess the reason I'm keen to understand the pros/cons is because it looks as though we're heading to a point where the wave community needs to figure out the direction for Apache wave and the wiab codebase (within appropriate [DISCUSS] and [VOTE] threads of course). Probably as part of the larger conversation that John Blossom started. I'm beginning to think we're talking about two discrete directions: 1) The wave OT or protocol are broken not fit for purpose. We should implement different OT and / or protocol which is (likely) incompatible with the existing implementations. Potentially this could involve junking the current wiab codebase, and implementing a new wave like platform (potentially on top of existing non-wiab code). 2) Wave OT and protocol are good-enough for our immediate / mid-term desires, but the wiab implementations could be stronger. We want to focus on expanding the ecosystem - enabling different clients, simplifying federation, tidying the codebase. I.e. convert what we've got into a useful product. With enough resource, maybe we could aim for Apache wave to take both directions - expand the ecosystem now and work on long-term incompatible changes, but given the lack of an existing install base this might not be an ideal choice. Until recently, I assumed we were just heading for #2, but there's clearly some desire for #1, and some known weaknesses in Wave's current approach. Certainly OT state-of-the-art has moved on significantly since the wave implementation, but should wave be on the bleeding edge of OT? Or are our developers and community more focused on a slick (and feature rich) implementation of the core technology google demo'd a few years back? I've got lots of questions and very few answers, but hopefully we're getting more clarity on what we want/expect from this community. Dave On 11/06/13 19:41, Michael MacFadden wrote: In a sense yes. In a P2P model there is no single canonical wave. All the federated servers would have a copy of the wave. Any server that drops out simply drops out. The isolated server could still server up the wave to its clients if it were still connected. Then when it comes back, it would rejoin the other federating servers. There are some intricacies here, but that is the main idea. ~M On 6/11/13 7:37 PM, Dave w...@glark.co.uk wrote: On 11/06/13 18:48, Michael MacFadden wrote: I have drafted up some ideas on a hybrid system. Actually I have seen two approaches. One uses a natively P2P protocol, which then elects super nodes to act as servers in highly connected clusters. Interesting - so this effectively would allow re-hosting of a wave if the original host goes off line? The underlying OT supports P2P style merging, and there are the efficiency advantages of having OneTrueHost for a given wave, but if that host goes offline the wave can be re-hosted elsewhere. Dave
Re: Community mailing list?
one thing that would be pretty sweet would be if you could subscribe to mailing lists but from your wave server, extra points if the way you do it is federating to the wiab.net server and subscribing to its email wave :) On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Pratik Paranjape pratikparanj...@gmail.comwrote: +1 Upayavira and Bruno. Well said! On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak) sten...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Creating new mailing lists divides communities and should therefore be done with caution. This community was, until recently, extremely quiet. I'm open to the idea of another list, but I want to see that it will have the right effect, and not unnecessarily divide an already small community. Really, the mission that the ASF has taken on is that of the development of WIAB. All other goals are more amorphous, and it will take time to see what shape they will take and how they might fit here. If folks want it, can we start by using message subjects, eg [DEV] or [GENERAL] as subject prefixes? I'm in favour of this suggestion. In my past experience with small/immature communities splitting discussions like this, I also agree it's probably best to wait some weeks/months. So after (not before!) the level of offtopic (i.e. non -dev) threads becomes too high, only then the discussion is split into several lists. -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Community mailing list?
also as much as i really really want to do most of this communication on someone (anyone's) wave server has anyone thought of having an official wave irc channel on freenode or something ? On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:53 AM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: Upayavira, Thanks, those are my thoughts exactly. I will not inundate this community unnecessarily with communications, but I agree that focusing on having a community that's vibrant and engaged is a key function of this list. If we get more developers excited and engaged then that's a good thing - and that's what we need to focus on. Once there's more consensus on development direction, then we can think about a platform-product channel as necessary. Perhaps in the meantime we can agree to some subject line protocol that will make it easier for people to filter messages, such as a hashtag (#waveforward). Best, John email: jblos...@gmail.com phone: 203.293.8511 google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Paulo, I'm not saying we won't separate, I'm just saying I want us to wait a bit. I'm asking you to sit with the pain for a bit longer, so we can allow what the other, non-coding discussions are really about to emerge, and for others to show up and start engaging with the coding part of this project - that's the most important thing in the end. Talk is easy, actually doing takes more effort. Upayavira On Thu, Jun 6, 2013, at 02:51 PM, Paulo Pires wrote: Please, separate things! Political management stuff one way, development/user support another. It's really painful to get dozens of e-mails just because of logo stuff and such, no matter how important the subject is. And yes, I can use filters, but still they're not perfect and are PITA to maintain. PP On Jun 6, 2013, at 1:58 PM, John Blossom - Shore Communications Inc. jblos...@shore.com wrote: Good points all. I am content to continue the Wave:Forward level of discussion in this venue, as long as we're focusing on the re-architecture of the Wave platform it's very much a development focus. Perhaps another list will make sense when there's more of a product management focus for Wave - but first we need a more marketable platform. So I will continue to feed ideas on market requirements and product specifications here for now, unless something else evolves. And yes, it will be nice to eat our own dog food and use Wave itself as the communications platform. John
Re: [VOTE] Release Wave 0.4 based on RC3
michael , in the next couple of days i will try upgrading my server to the latest release. need to check up on how upgrading an instance works and then ill let you know. On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Michael MacFadden michael.macfad...@gmail.com wrote: As a sanity check has any one grabbed the release and tried to run the server? I can give it a try on OSX? On 6/5/13 6:14 PM, Joseph Gentle jose...@gmail.com wrote: +1 if you think its ready Ali. On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote: +1 Thanks Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 4:40 AM, Ali Lown a...@apache.org wrote: Lets try again with this then... Wave 0.4 RC3 is available for review here: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc3/ This is a build from the subversion tag wave-0.4-rc3 at: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/wave/tags/ A summary can be found in the RELEASE-NOTES at: https://people.apache.org/~al/wave_rc/0.4-rc3/RELEASE-NOTES and included in the tarballs. Votes, please. This vote will close at 2000 GMT 8-June 2013. [ ] +1 Release these artifacts [ ] +0 OK, but... [ ] -0OK, but really should fix... [ ] -1I oppose this release because... Thanks. Ali --- The 'minor note' again for those still confused: Only votes from the members of the PMC are binding, however votes from other committers, users, and contributors are welcomed. If your vote is negative, please leave a comment explaining clearly why. Refer to https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html for more information on this process.
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
Christian , i just tried to make a new account on waveinabox.net, that worked fine but upon trying to make a new wave it keeps crashing over and over. so atm waveinabox.net is unusable for me, so actually im really glad you made the suggestion to use it because it seems like there are some bugs to work out of it. curiously the server i run crashes but not nearly as badly as waveinabox.net. For me i dont care which wave server this runs on (although i do want it to be a pure implementation rather than kune or rizzoma) using the tool we are all interested to actually communicate is what interests me. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: If there were enough impetus, I'd be able to get a test mailing list set up, it isn't hard. It would be good to not pollute this list with lots of test emails early on. Upayavira On Fri, May 31, 2013, at 02:20 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: Thanks Christian, Bruno and Yuri for your feedback. It seems that all other basic conditions are set (or possible) to make a pretty good test case. Now, if someone could find the time, energy and motivation to make this happen some of us are eager to help. Btw, found other links from previous bridge implementations: http://emaily.dlux.hu/ https://code.google.com/p/emaily/ http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Robots API works fine with about ~90% functionality implemented compared to Google Wave Robot API. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Bruno Gonzalez sten...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Alfredo Abambres I know that is easier said than done. But if we have the chance to find out if this is possible, we should grab it, don't you think? Would you help us find out if this is possible? Thats surely possible. Basically you can allow specific senders to post to the mailinglist. We do something like that with Jira already. My guess is, one would just need to maintain some kind of message ids to keep a message thread intact. It looks like a good way to implement this would be a wave robot, but I'm not sure what's the status of robots at the moment in WiaB. For starters, we could hardcode everything for our specific use case, which is *this* mailing list, one specific robot instance, and one specific email thread / wave thread. The usage outline would be: - Create a wave in a wiab provider. - Add apache-wave-to-w...@wiab.provider.com to the wave. - Add apache-wave-to-w...@gmail.com to this mailing list. For starters, the bot will simply listen for all new blips, and send an email for each of them, via gmail SMTP server, to apache-...@incubator.apache.org (or any other mailing list really, this is just for development testing), with a hardcoded thread subject bot test. That way we can test that whatever happens in wave, can reach a mailing list. Then we have to do the reverse: have a daemon (or something...) listening to the gmail POP/IMAP server, and for each email it receives, somehow tell the bot to create append a new blip to the wave. Once that's working, we can worry about correct placement of blips, and correct email headers (so that the conversation tree structure isn't lost). Then we can figure out a way to set up the bot, so that we can use multiple waves and multiple email threads (each with their own email subject and wave ID). Continue generalizing until we can use it for apache-wave discussions, or until anyone can use it in any arbitrary mailing list. Now the question is... words are nice, but the question as usual is, who's willing and has enough time to code it? :-) A while ago I was working on an RSS reader for wave. The concept is very similar to what I just explained, only difference is that RSS is unidirectional, while a mailing list is bidirectional. However the code is simple enough and functional (I think I even got to the point where the RSS url was configurable by user from the wave itself), so maybe it can be taken as a starting point for the mailinglist-gateway: https://github.com/stenyak/bagareader Feel free to fork or do whatever, as long as you respect the Affero GPL v3 license. -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
in that case, could there be a debug server and an official server? On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Bruno Gonzalez sten...@gmail.com wrote: Waveinabox.net is being run in debug mode, probably because yuri was testing new stuff, debugging some problem, working on wiab code. This has also happened several times in the past, though historically I think it's been stable more often than it's been unstable. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: Christian , i just tried to make a new account on waveinabox.net, that worked fine but upon trying to make a new wave it keeps crashing over and over. so atm waveinabox.net is unusable for me, so actually im really glad you made the suggestion to use it because it seems like there are some bugs to work out of it. curiously the server i run crashes but not nearly as badly as waveinabox.net. For me i dont care which wave server this runs on (although i do want it to be a pure implementation rather than kune or rizzoma) using the tool we are all interested to actually communicate is what interests me. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: If there were enough impetus, I'd be able to get a test mailing list set up, it isn't hard. It would be good to not pollute this list with lots of test emails early on. Upayavira On Fri, May 31, 2013, at 02:20 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: Thanks Christian, Bruno and Yuri for your feedback. It seems that all other basic conditions are set (or possible) to make a pretty good test case. Now, if someone could find the time, energy and motivation to make this happen some of us are eager to help. Btw, found other links from previous bridge implementations: http://emaily.dlux.hu/ https://code.google.com/p/emaily/ http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Robots API works fine with about ~90% functionality implemented compared to Google Wave Robot API. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Bruno Gonzalez sten...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Alfredo Abambres I know that is easier said than done. But if we have the chance to find out if this is possible, we should grab it, don't you think? Would you help us find out if this is possible? Thats surely possible. Basically you can allow specific senders to post to the mailinglist. We do something like that with Jira already. My guess is, one would just need to maintain some kind of message ids to keep a message thread intact. It looks like a good way to implement this would be a wave robot, but I'm not sure what's the status of robots at the moment in WiaB. For starters, we could hardcode everything for our specific use case, which is *this* mailing list, one specific robot instance, and one specific email thread / wave thread. The usage outline would be: - Create a wave in a wiab provider. - Add apache-wave-to-w...@wiab.provider.com to the wave. - Add apache-wave-to-w...@gmail.com to this mailing list. For starters, the bot will simply listen for all new blips, and send an email for each of them, via gmail SMTP server, to apache-...@incubator.apache.org (or any other mailing list really, this is just for development testing), with a hardcoded thread subject bot test. That way we can test that whatever happens in wave, can reach a mailing list. Then we have to do the reverse: have a daemon (or something...) listening to the gmail POP/IMAP server, and for each email it receives, somehow tell the bot to create append a new blip to the wave. Once that's working, we can worry about correct placement of blips, and correct email headers (so that the conversation tree structure isn't lost). Then we can figure out a way to set up the bot, so that we can use multiple waves and multiple email threads (each with their own email subject and wave ID). Continue generalizing until we can use it for apache-wave discussions, or until anyone can use it in any arbitrary mailing list. Now the question is... words are nice, but the question as usual is, who's willing and has enough time to code it? :-) A while ago I was working on an RSS reader for wave. The concept is very similar to what I just explained, only
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
bruno, how bout instead of official we have a demo server and a testing server for wiab? also if you read up a bit ive already stepped up to offer using my own server for discussion, however its not the most ideal but i have no problem with people using it for that purpose. again i really dont care which wiab instance on which server we use, just that i would personally like to be talking and testing wiab with all of you :) -fleeky On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Gonzalez sten...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: in that case, could there be a debug server and an official server? Someone correct me if I'm wrong (yuri?), but all wave in a box deployments are not in any way official (even if they may be hyperlinked from the Apache Wave official website). Specifically, waveinabox.net server and domain is paid for and maintained by Yuri (because one day he decided to volunteer and do it). I have no idea if Apache can let us a share of one of their servers for a wiab install, but if that's not the case then we would have to do it ourselves. And by we, I mean that an actual person would have to step forwards in this mailing list and offer a server for it. I have thought about doing so myself, I recently tried to deploy wiab in a shared host where I currently keep my personal website and other stuff, but have had numerous problems (it's a shared server without root permisions, and my account gets closed everytime I use too much CPU or disk, so it's difficult to work like that). Does anyone know if Apache could let us a server to use (even if it's a VPS with just 200mbs of ram... as long as it can run wiab)? -- Saludos, Bruno González ___ Jabber: stenyak AT gmail.com http://www.stenyak.com
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
upayavira, i strongly agree in shifting discussions like this to wave. since this is exactly what it is designed for, if we cant use it for this then what good is it? also by using it we will see what it truly needs to go forward imo and also at the same time you can market it to new people by showing off the technology in a real world schenario. On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: I'd say build a cool tool that proves it can work. Apache tends to be quite slow to adopt new technologies, notably because the enthusiasm they bring often wanders to the next cool thing, leaving maintenance in the hands of a small and already over-committed group of admins. If a new technology is going to be used, people are going to want to know that it is going to stay around, and that it covers a range of requirements (e.g. archiving), as mailing lists form the 'corporate memory' of the Foundation, and they'll want to be sure that that memory is 'protected'. So I don't see any reason why discussion couldn't move to a Wave server at some point in the future, but it is important that communication happens in a place where all can participate, that includes folks outside the immediate Wave community. Therefore, the best thing you can do to make it happen is to produce an exceptionally cool and compelling tool that other projects might also want to use. Then a discussion can start to happen. Upayavira On Thu, May 30, 2013, at 07:38 PM, Alfredo Abambres wrote: One thing always bothered me (for years), and since I lost my virginity on the previous post about What is Wave? I can now scratch this itch :-) When will this kind of mailing lists be replaced by wave-powered discussions for the Apache Wave community (an internal hosted Wave client)? What needs to happen to make this happen? I'm extremely curious to know because: 1. if we're building a possible email replacement we should have an answer and even try to eat-our-own-dogfood (someday) 2. I, personally find this medium (mailing lists) too inefficient* and noisy, though highly convenient :-) *and lots of great/potential discussions and ideas get lost. 3. (side-effect) I want to learn what will it need, so I could also apply to my other work areas (org/companies). Thanks for your answers. Alfredo
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
another point , since wave is federated cant that lessen the load somewhat ? although that sortof enters p2p rather then federated but still. yet another reason to use wave for discussion, it forces the softare to actually make good on its features that it already has. also heck i cant imagine that many people are even on the mailing list i am tempted to say just try and start the discussion on my own wave server .. its on a 40mb down 5mb up dual bonded dsl line. On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Pratik Paranjape pratikparanj...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome! Then perhaps we should take it as our first use case both to showcase Wave to others and to test how well we are doing. It will drive us towards most of the functional goals we want to have in the end. Most engineers will feel better if they know what the purpose of the building is and where it is supposed to be placed. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: On Thu, May 30, 2013, at 08:28 PM, Pratik Paranjape wrote: There can be a workaround at some point though. We can have discussions going on a Wave server for Wave project and make sure that all messages are forwarded to this mailing list as well. If someone responds here, we can have wave pull it out and merge into wave discussion. Interesting use case and fits with what we are trying accomplish. Realistically, its not going to be easy for a whole organization to replace its primary communication platform unless something equally proven comes along. Another point will be: who reliably pays for the server once it has traffic? In such places, like John mentioned, funding comes handy. The sorts of intermediates you mention would be the right kind of approach - maintaining the accessibility people currently appreciate with mailing lists, while providing another approach also. As to funding, while Apache doesn't pay people to develop software, it does have funds to cover server hardware, if a good case can be put forwards. If folks wanted a place to run a test wave server, for 'collective play', it wouldn't be too hard to arrange a VM for the purpose. Upayavira
Re: Mailing Lists vs Wave
the way i see it new replies in a wave can be emailed, but the big problem is how do you deal with a wave being reply being changed, eg how do you 'bake down' the dynamic nature of a wave into static email form. a few ideas : email every change as a reply in a message thread = extremely tedious emails where you see very miniscule difs, could possibly be solved by only emailing when a data change is past a certain percentage threshold of the original reply. email that a change has taken place in a reply but do not send those contents = same problem as before a server side variable that will send a dif of changes periodically, this would smooth over the tedious minute to minute possible changes in any wave entry? none of these seem ideal, the other option is a 'publish' feature wherein you freeze a reply at that point it will be emailed out and you can no longer make changes to it. curious what others think about dynamic to static content conversion. lastly i really think wave's potential as a fast way to display data to the public internet is also a really big killer application of wave but that is a side point. i am just going to go ahead and start a wave on my own wave server that will be a brainstorm and discussion area for wave. if anyone wants to join up its at http://7rnx.net:9898 i am te...@7rnx.net if you register on it and tell me your username ill add you to that wave. fleeky On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:50 PM, John Blossom jblos...@gmail.com wrote: The acid test, is it not. Hopefully it's done in a way that enables both listserv/email integration and synchronisation as well as the ability to drop other UIs on top of the API to expose different aspects of the data set. The most compelling use case will be a) I really can replace my email server with Wave for collaborative communications whilst synchronising with those who are still on email servers and b) I don't have to duplicate data sets to get more value - I just use different components of a given wave, sometimes with other UIs. All the best, John Blossom On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Alfredo Abambres alfredoabamb...@gmail.com wrote: *Upayavira* * * Thanks for your explanation, the reasons you stated are extremely valid and important. --- About *Upayavira *and *Pratik Paranjape *idea/suggestion of setting up a test project for this * * I can't help much in terms of servers and hard-code, but I can assist on UI design and, if needed?, promoting and helping discussions (the What is Wave? link that I shared before is an example of what we're doing) Would a Wiab like this http://waveinabox.net/http://waveinabox.net/auth/signin?r=/ be enough or we would need to develop a different kind of client? http://alfredo.abambres.com *Moving, always moving, and living inside movement. Rainer Maria Rilke* On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Pratik Paranjape pratikparanj...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome! Then perhaps we should take it as our first use case both to showcase Wave to others and to test how well we are doing. It will drive us towards most of the functional goals we want to have in the end. Most engineers will feel better if they know what the purpose of the building is and where it is supposed to be placed. On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: On Thu, May 30, 2013, at 08:28 PM, Pratik Paranjape wrote: There can be a workaround at some point though. We can have discussions going on a Wave server for Wave project and make sure that all messages are forwarded to this mailing list as well. If someone responds here, we can have wave pull it out and merge into wave discussion. Interesting use case and fits with what we are trying accomplish. Realistically, its not going to be easy for a whole organization to replace its primary communication platform unless something equally proven comes along. Another point will be: who reliably pays for the server once it has traffic? In such places, like John mentioned, funding comes handy. The sorts of intermediates you mention would be the right kind of approach - maintaining the accessibility people currently appreciate with mailing lists, while providing another approach also. As to funding, while Apache doesn't pay people to develop software, it does have funds to cover server hardware, if a good case can be put forwards. If folks wanted a place to run a test wave server, for 'collective play', it wouldn't be too hard to arrange a VM for the purpose. Upayavira
