Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 05.03.2014, at 22:50, Klaus Berkling webobje...@berkling.us wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: [...] Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes? If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery. +1 I have quite some ideas regarding the tools, in particular for EntityModeler. And I have ideas for easy installation of the development environment. But then I also need to feed and house me and my family... Off to buy a lottery ticket... ---markus--- Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-) kib We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Walt Disney Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mailinglists%40kataputt.com This email sent to mailingli...@kataputt.com Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Check out the new book about Project Wonder and WebObjects on http://learningthewonders.com/ ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re-implemented the whole process of creating the PDFs. There was an external program reading the database regularly looking for changes to the text snippets and product data. Whatever it found got wrapped up into some XML structure and then sent to a remote receiver. This program failed horribly because of my changing the database structures - and nobody really knew how that transfer program worked. So I reverse engineered the composed XML and built this right into the main application. This application has since grown considerably in functionality and is now being used corporate wide for the maintenance of product data and the related spec sheets. As soon as the user commits any changes to the database all the related PDFs are generated right then and there and the changes are automatically transferred to the remote system. Customer is HAPPY! Oh, and what about cost? The customer had an internal offer to recreate everything in-house in their big SAP system. This was wy to expensive. Total cost I billed was 1 tenth (!!) of what the internal project would have cost. WO rocks!! Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are made elsewhere. We'll see. Another success story: I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module object oriented development of multiuser database applications using Wonder. Fortunately the school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former student and his boss are happy. YEAH! It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way to do anything with WO. I was able to be introduced privately to an older rather rich person who has a lot of his money stuffed away in real estate. For him I could develop a finance tracking application for his investments so that his daughter will be able to maintain the finances once he is gone (which I hope will not be so soon). That's a modern look ERD2W application hosted by my company. Customer is happy so far and plans for more. But I agree, it is very difficult finding WO work. It's not the tools, it's not WO, it's probably not even the closed-source thing, it's just the buzzwords that are completely missing. Nobody in the Java world is even considering something other than JEE and friends because that's the standard. Sad but true. ---markus--- Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Check out the new book about Project Wonder and WebObjects on http://learningthewonders.com/ ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re- Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are made elsewhere. We'll see. Another success story: I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module object oriented development of multiuser database applications using Wonder. Fortunately the school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former student and his boss are happy. YEAH! It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way to do anything with WO. I was able to be introduced privately to an older rather rich person who has a lot of his money stuffed away in real estate. For him I could develop a finance tracking application for his investments so that his daughter will be able to maintain the finances once he is gone (which I hope will not be so soon
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great applications. And so I ask the list. What will be in your wallet without WO? PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the always wonderfully cranky Anjo. Cheers James On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia mej...@evol-tech.com wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re- Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are made elsewhere. We'll see. Another success story: I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module object oriented development of multiuser database applications using Wonder. Fortunately the school has given me quite some slack. One
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
You know, I still get far and away the best results using WO. I’ve been using Mongo and Node and it’s fine…I guess…if you want javascript running your server. People say you can do all these cool things, but it seems to me that mongo stores arbitrary stuff that get you into trouble down the road — frankly, rows and columns still make sense to me. Node? Fine, I guess it’s easy to setup and learn and run— it sure is lightweight! but then you end up with javascript people who hack things, and again, over time it does’t feel that much better to me. NoSql? seems to be a relational database underneath anyway, so it’s fine I guess — but was it something I was needing? so, pick your poisons I guess. WO is dead, long live WO. On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great applications. And so I ask the list. What will be in your wallet without WO? PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the always wonderfully cranky Anjo. Cheers James On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia mej...@evol-tech.com wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where they access the database
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Fashion is fun for a season. Fine clothing gets handed down through the generations My son is currently hiking the Rockies wearing the good flannel shirts I wore in the 70s The WO App we began developing in the late 90s is still in service and simply does't break I know how I prefer to spend my money.. :-) -- Joel M. Benisch CPCU, President 973-992-6300 x303 PaperFree Corporation 973-992- FAX 909 Regal Boulevard j...@paperfree.net Livingston, NJ 07039-8249 WE CREATE PRODUCTS WE WOULD WANT TO USE! On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:02 AM, Jesse Tayler wrote: You know, I still get far and away the best results using WO. I’ve been using Mongo and Node and it’s fine…I guess…if you want javascript running your server. People say you can do all these cool things, but it seems to me that mongo stores arbitrary stuff that get you into trouble down the road — frankly, rows and columns still make sense to me. Node? Fine, I guess it’s easy to setup and learn and run— it sure is lightweight! but then you end up with javascript people who hack things, and again, over time it does’t feel that much better to me. NoSql? seems to be a relational database underneath anyway, so it’s fine I guess — but was it something I was needing? so, pick your poisons I guess. WO is dead, long live WO. On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great applications. And so I ask the list. What will be in your wallet without WO? PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the always wonderfully cranky Anjo. Cheers James On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia mej...@evol-tech.com wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Hah. For WO to be dead it would have first had to have been alive. Java is a dead language… It is static code in a file that has to be compiled to byte code. It is brought back from the dead by Eclipse… like the living dead. Objective-C is also dead in the same manner. WO has always been an exclusive gentleman’s club. It probably always will be. It is filled with arcane masters of thought… some might even draw a comparison with alchemists. Eccentric folk who wield their weapon of choice adeptly, creating solutions for those who need them. Seems like too many of us have forgotten the alchemic laws of “equivalent exchange.” In order to get something we must first give up something of equal value. Stop moaning, grab your tool, fight! PS - with Rails everything is a Direct Action. If that’s cool with you, go ahead. If you just like the syntax and the interactive nature of Ruby… go back to the source… dig deeper… even beyond the beginning of WO to find the truth. AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e: aa...@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great applications. And so I ask the list. What will be in your wallet without WO? PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the always wonderfully cranky Anjo. Cheers James On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia mej...@evol-tech.com wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Hi Daniel, Can you tell us how Entity Framework measures up to EOF? Is it better in some areas? Is it missing features in other areas? Thanks, Chuck On 2014-03-07, 7:22 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.commailto:mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad) success story: I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re- Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are made elsewhere. We'll see. Another success story: I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module object oriented development of multiuser database applications using Wonder. Fortunately the school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former student and his boss are happy. YEAH! It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way to do anything with WO. I
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 7, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig aa...@chatnbike.com wrote: … even beyond the beginning of WO to find the truth. A guess that would fit the result better than any I know would have been SimDBM written for the Dec-10 in Simula 67 around the year 1974 at the Swedish National Defense Institute, we used it at the Univ. of Washington medical research center. It's why I saw the Wonderfulness of WO in the first two hours I saw it in 2000 or thereabouts, ( with Gary Teter ). And I agree, Java sucks, and I say that after beginning its proselytizing at the very, very beginning of its inception. Thanks to Pascal, Chuck, etc. for sharing the magic of WO. -Baiss Eric Magnusson|11540 Alton Ave NEhttp://cascadewebdesign.com |Seattle, WA. 98125, 206-361-0718 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Sure Chuck, First of all, after version 6 Entity Framework is an open source project. You can find the source code in http://entityframework.codeplex.com The first time when I learn EF I thought that they based the development on EOF. As with EOF you have many connector for different Data bases. There is a graphical designer to design you model or you can reverse engineering your database or ya can define the model by code, There is support for all kind of relationships: to-one, to-many, many-to-many They support Spatial types. You can integrate with XAML thru bindings as is made in cocoa There are way to define the relationships configurations (required, optional, cascade delete, etc.) There is a context similar to EOF context You can navigate the relationships in an Object oriented way You can specify the attributes to check the concurrency There is a way to define the resolution of concurrency conflicts To search you can use LINQ, raw SQL, by primary key, store procedures, etc. They use lazy loading for relationship (proxy) Thera is support for migrations (versioning) Of course, it is very well integrated with many other MS technologies Well, I think that everything that I used in EOF is there (I don’t mean that all that is in EOF is in EF, just all that I needed). Well, is what I remember at this moment but if you have something specific in mind let me know and I'll check it to see if there is something similar in EF. I’m not working with this technology anymore, not because I don’t like it, its pretty good and you can find tons of info, books, code examples, etc. but for a new big project (big for us) we decided to use JavaScript. We decided after many discussions what is the best options for this project and we are convinced that JS is the best option for us. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:18, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote: Hi Daniel, Can you tell us how Entity Framework measures up to EOF? Is it better in some areas? Is it missing features in other areas? Thanks, Chuck On 2014-03-07, 7:22 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, I would like to share my experience with WO. We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other companies because all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the systems. For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO. We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect but for many systems has everything that you need. Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy. Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple. Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people). I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating everything to the JavaScript world. Regards, Daniel. On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: From: Markus Ruggiero mailingli...@kataputt.com Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects? Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST To: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen A (sad
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600 James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? snip WebObjects as a brand has been DOA for a while. The technology still works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools. Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a tolerance for suckage in general. I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language, then I must be missing something. One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance, the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something has died, why are these concepts still useful? - ray ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 2014-03-07, 4:51 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote: On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600 James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.commailto:ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? snip WebObjects as a brand has been DOA for a while. Ray Kiddy, Master of Understatement :-) If your business is selling WO as a technology, just give up and go home. The winning strategy, as many have pointed out in the past and continue to successfully implement, is to sell solving business problems in a cost effective way. Keep the word “WebObjects” to yourself. Chuck The technology still works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools. Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a tolerance for suckage in general. I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language, then I must be missing something. One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance, the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something has died, why are these concepts still useful? - ray ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.netmailto:ch...@global-village.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Enviado via iPad Em 07/03/2014, às 22:12, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net escreveu: On 2014-03-07, 4:51 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote: On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600 James Cicenia ja...@jimijon.com wrote: Yep. WO is dead. I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts? snip WebObjects as a brand has been DOA for a while. Ray Kiddy, Master of Understatement :-) If your business is selling WO as a technology, just give up and go home. The winning strategy, as many have pointed out in the past and continue to successfully implement, is to sell solving business problems in a cost effective way. Keep the word “WebObjects” to yourself. +1 Nilton Chuck The technology still works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools. Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a tolerance for suckage in general. I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language, then I must be missing something. One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance, the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something has died, why are these concepts still useful? - ray ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/nlessa%40moleque.com.br This email sent to nle...@moleque.com.br ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Hello Jürgen, hello all, as long as I'm in the WO business (since 2001), I've never seen anybody using WO in big business. It has always been small to medium sized projects. I my case 10 to 100 kilo-Euros. Once upon a time there must have been big WO installations outside Apple - but that was in the pre-2000 era. Nevertheless, I'm still using WO as a business. I was mostly successful acquiring new WO projects when the client - had no inhouse IT department (as soon as there are already inhouse IT people, the chance to get WO used in new projects goes to zero), - had no further requirements (such as using a certain technology or wants to use OpenSource), - was only interested in getting the job done. Thanks to WO/Wonder itself as well as the excellent WO community, I was always able to get my customers happy. In functionality, in budget and in time! So, my personal strategy is to find a client with a) a problem (that can be solved) b) money (I had endless discussion with people having a problem and wishing it to get solved - but no business case at all) You won't find such clients in project marketplaces or something alike. I find them - more or less - by accident. But nevertheless I find them. C.U.CW -- Christoph Wick - Diplom Informatiker, Managing Director i4innovation GmbH, Professor-Neu-Allee 39, 53225 Bonn, Germany T +49 2 28 28 62 97 93 M +49 1 51 22 65 78 90 F +49 2 28 28 62 97 99 M c...@i4innovation.de W www.i4innovation.de Skype: christoph_wick Geschäftsführer: Thomas Heep, Christoph Wick Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn | Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 18548 | USt-IdNr.: DE276502600 On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/wicki%40me.com This email sent to wi...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? I doubt that it's just Germany. I think its not a WO problem but rather that projects get outsourced/off-shored to dime-a-dozen web developers that don't use WO - if the project isn't canceled outright. kib The essence of training is to allow error without consequence. Orson Scott Card Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size :O ) and will until I retire :) On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com This email sent to kenli...@anderhome.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 05/03/2014, at 17:42, Ken Anderson kenli...@anderhome.com wrote: I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size :O ) and will until I retire :) +1. On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kenlists%40anderhome.com This email sent to kenli...@anderhome.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to see a lot of new faces around though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.commailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
I prefer sunny side up ;-) On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net wrote: On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: [...] Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes? If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery. Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-) kib We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Walt Disney Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups can use whatever they want. - Mail original - De: Gino Pacitti ginok...@mac.com À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is so great! I love WebObjects!! This is not to say WO is bad. WO
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
ROFLMAO! And Look! An @apple.com address broke radio silence! :-P On 2014-03-05, 1:50 PM, Alan Ward wrote: I prefer sunny side up ;-) On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.netmailto:ch...@global-village.net wrote: On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude. We did not own them. Apple offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes engineers happy and compensates them well. Hell, I “poached Miguel first and make a run at some of the others. A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community as they did some years ago. But, really, what is their motivation to do so? What have we given them in the last few years? Chuck 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.commailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.commailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.commailto:si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.comhttp://apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page??http://domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) Tim UCLA GSEIS On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Klaus Berkling webobje...@berkling.us wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com wrote: [...] Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes? If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery. Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-) kib We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Walt Disney Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists%40thetimmy.com This email sent to li...@thetimmy.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman li...@thetimmy.com wrote: Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) YMMV, there's PHP too :-) kib The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences. Winston Churchill Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
how about some server-side javascript? who uses object inheritance or relies on those pesky class types anyway? you can perform an otherwise normal database backup and say “I’m going to take a mongo dump now” at the office. so, it’s not like it’s all about being effective by getting hard problems done in reliably designed foundations and all that sorta crap, now is it? On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Klaus Berkling webobje...@berkling.us wrote: On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman li...@thetimmy.com wrote: Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-) YMMV, there's PHP too :-) kib The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences. Winston Churchill Klaus Berkling www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jtayler%40oeinc.com This email sent to jtay...@oeinc.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects-Projects?
appleseed discussions may use WO as well? Tim UCLA GSEIS On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:51 PM, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups can use whatever they want. - Mail original - De: Gino Pacitti ginok...@mac.com À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? Have they left WO completely? On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca wrote: It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long. 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of being full of stress. - Mail original - De: Ramsey Gurley rgur...@smarthealth.com À: Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49 Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects? On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon si...@webtecc.com wrote: Hello, this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on. Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would you guys think WO really has? Kind Regards, Jürgen Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a limited future. For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside. Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since. Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.” Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing department. Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!” WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in something else. Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare. Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially
Re: WebObjects projects hosting...
This just makes way too much sense. It would be nice to at least see this happen. T On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Francis Labrie wrote: Couldn't Apple gives space and bandwidth for WOLips/Wonder/etc. community projects on http://www.macosforge.org/? Andrus Adamchik wrote: If it comes to bandwidth, I think we can afford it. I am currently paying about $5/month for hosting remote server backups. For 5 bucks my package gives me 100 GB of disk space and 1.2TB of bandwidth (not sure if they actually allow you to use all that; and not sure about the transfer speed, as I am using it only to upload stuff). I can open another such FTP/WWW account dedicated to WOLips if Mike and others think they need it for the download server. Then there's always SourceForge... but it doesn't make it easy to post nightly's. Andrus On Oct 31, 2007, at 5:59 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: What about putting that on a .Mac account and let Apple help a little bit on that one? I have a Mac mini mainly idling around, but it's not my own traffic, so I can't use that one. But I can put a package on my .Mac site and we can link to that. cug -- Francis Labrie Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville, Québec, Canada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists%40thetimmy.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
