Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Scott MacLeod]

Thanks, John, Erika, and Wikidatans,

As an experiment with Android voice on my smartphone, I just said to the
rectangular object in my hand: "Please add the languages of the United
Kingdom Wikipedia page to the info box for the United Kingdom Wikipedia
page" and at the top of the list on my smartphone arose this link -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom - which is
cool, but no further digital actions occurred after this.

I'm excited for the time when Wikipedia info boxes will do this with both
voice and brain wave headsets, and wonder when this might occur (per this
Stanford Engineering Tweet of Jeff Dean -
https://twitter.com/StanfordEng/status/760571959402909697 - which I posted
here - https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch - also on August 2nd).

Thank you.

Scott
http://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2016/08/rafetus-yangtze-giant-euphrates.html




On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Brill Lyle  wrote:

> Yes. Point taken John. Wow. Thank goodness I use syntax highlighting
> #love... but still: Yikes. Here's the link to the page if anyone wants to
> dig around the madness.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
>
> I guess I see a difference between a casual editor wanting to update a
> piece of data that can be Ctrl+F searched for among a mass of information
> versus battling with P# Wikidata items amongst an endless sea of
> chronological elements and curly brackets. But that's just me.
>
> re: this proposal
>
> I think Putnik has been very patient with my concerns and in trying to
> answer questions. As have others. I really appreciate it.
>
> I am not satisfied, and the majority of my concerns will not be addressed.
> There do not seem to be solutions here that will make me happy. I will be
> interested to see how this proposal progresses.
>
> Best,
>
> - Erika
>
>
> *Erika Herzog*
> Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:12 PM, john cummings 
> wrote:
>
>> I think its important to make a distinction between what is easiest and
>> what people are used to. Perhaps thinking about what new users would find
>> easiest might be helpful.
>>
>> Here is an example of a well developed infobox on English Wikipedia, I
>> think that the knowledge needed to edit this is an unreasonable barrier for
>> casual, new or even fairly experienced if less technical editors like
>> myself.
>>
>> {{about|the country|its largest island|Great Britain|other uses|United
>> Kingdom (disambiguation)|and|UK (disambiguation)}}
>> {{pp-semi-indef}}
>> {{pp-move-indef}}
>> {{Use British English|date=April 2012}}
>> {{Use dmy dates|date=July 2016}}
>> {{Infobox country
>> | name =
>>  {{collapsible list
>>  |titlestyle=background:transparent;font-size:9pt;
>>  |title={{resize|11.5pt|{{nowrap|United Kingdom of Great}}
>> {{nowrap|Britain and Northern Ireland
>>  |{{Infobox |subbox=yes |bodystyle=font-size:9pt;font-weight:normal;
>>  |rowclass1=mergedrow |label1=[[Cornish language|Cornish]]:
>> |data1={{lang|kw|Rywvaneth Unys Breten Veur ha Kledhbarth Iwerdhon}}
>>  |rowclass2 =mergedrow |label2=[[Irish language|Irish]]:
>> |data2={{lang|ga|Ríocht Aontaithe na Breataine Móire agus Thuaisceart
>> Éireann}}
>>  |rowclass3=mergedrow |label3=[[Scots language|Scots]]:
>> |data3={{lang|sco|Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland}}
>>  |rowclass4=mergedrow |label4=[[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster
>> Scots]]:|data4={{lang|sco-UKN|Claught Kängrick o Docht Brätain an Norlin
>> Airlann}}
>>  |rowclass5=mergedrow |label5=[[ScottishGaelic]]:
>> |data5={{lang|gd|Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath}}
>>  |rowclass6=mergedrow |label6=[[Welsh language|Welsh]]:
>> |data6={{lang|cy|Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon}}
>>  }}
>>  }}
>>  | common_name = United Kingdom
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

Yes. Point taken John. Wow. Thank goodness I use syntax highlighting
#love... but still: Yikes. Here's the link to the page if anyone wants to
dig around the madness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom

I guess I see a difference between a casual editor wanting to update a
piece of data that can be Ctrl+F searched for among a mass of information
versus battling with P# Wikidata items amongst an endless sea of
chronological elements and curly brackets. But that's just me.

re: this proposal

I think Putnik has been very patient with my concerns and in trying to
answer questions. As have others. I really appreciate it.

I am not satisfied, and the majority of my concerns will not be addressed.
There do not seem to be solutions here that will make me happy. I will be
interested to see how this proposal progresses.

Best,

- Erika


*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:12 PM, john cummings 
wrote:

> I think its important to make a distinction between what is easiest and
> what people are used to. Perhaps thinking about what new users would find
> easiest might be helpful.
>
> Here is an example of a well developed infobox on English Wikipedia, I
> think that the knowledge needed to edit this is an unreasonable barrier for
> casual, new or even fairly experienced if less technical editors like
> myself.
>
> {{about|the country|its largest island|Great Britain|other uses|United
> Kingdom (disambiguation)|and|UK (disambiguation)}}
> {{pp-semi-indef}}
> {{pp-move-indef}}
> {{Use British English|date=April 2012}}
> {{Use dmy dates|date=July 2016}}
> {{Infobox country
> | name =
>  {{collapsible list
>  |titlestyle=background:transparent;font-size:9pt;
>  |title={{resize|11.5pt|{{nowrap|United Kingdom of Great}}
> {{nowrap|Britain and Northern Ireland
>  |{{Infobox |subbox=yes |bodystyle=font-size:9pt;font-weight:normal;
>  |rowclass1=mergedrow |label1=[[Cornish language|Cornish]]:
> |data1={{lang|kw|Rywvaneth Unys Breten Veur ha Kledhbarth Iwerdhon}}
>  |rowclass2 =mergedrow |label2=[[Irish language|Irish]]:
> |data2={{lang|ga|Ríocht Aontaithe na Breataine Móire agus Thuaisceart
> Éireann}}
>  |rowclass3=mergedrow |label3=[[Scots language|Scots]]:
> |data3={{lang|sco|Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland}}
>  |rowclass4=mergedrow |label4=[[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster
> Scots]]:|data4={{lang|sco-UKN|Claught Kängrick o Docht Brätain an Norlin
> Airlann}}
>  |rowclass5=mergedrow |label5=[[ScottishGaelic]]:
> |data5={{lang|gd|Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath}}
>  |rowclass6=mergedrow |label6=[[Welsh language|Welsh]]:
> |data6={{lang|cy|Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon}}
>  }}
>  }}
>  | common_name = United Kingdom
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[john cummings]

I think its important to make a distinction between what is easiest and
what people are used to. Perhaps thinking about what new users would find
easiest might be helpful.

Here is an example of a well developed infobox on English Wikipedia, I
think that the knowledge needed to edit this is an unreasonable barrier for
casual, new or even fairly experienced if less technical editors like
myself.

{{about|the country|its largest island|Great Britain|other uses|United
Kingdom (disambiguation)|and|UK (disambiguation)}}
{{pp-semi-indef}}
{{pp-move-indef}}
{{Use British English|date=April 2012}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=July 2016}}
{{Infobox country
| name =
 {{collapsible list
 |titlestyle=background:transparent;font-size:9pt;
 |title={{resize|11.5pt|{{nowrap|United Kingdom of Great}} {{nowrap|Britain
and Northern Ireland
 |{{Infobox |subbox=yes |bodystyle=font-size:9pt;font-weight:normal;
 |rowclass1=mergedrow |label1=[[Cornish language|Cornish]]:
|data1={{lang|kw|Rywvaneth Unys Breten Veur ha Kledhbarth Iwerdhon}}
 |rowclass2 =mergedrow |label2=[[Irish language|Irish]]:
|data2={{lang|ga|Ríocht Aontaithe na Breataine Móire agus Thuaisceart
Éireann}}
 |rowclass3=mergedrow |label3=[[Scots language|Scots]]:
|data3={{lang|sco|Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland}}
 |rowclass4=mergedrow |label4=[[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster
Scots]]:|data4={{lang|sco-UKN|Claught Kängrick o Docht Brätain an Norlin
Airlann}}
 |rowclass5=mergedrow |label5=[[ScottishGaelic]]:
|data5={{lang|gd|Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath}}
 |rowclass6=mergedrow |label6=[[Welsh language|Welsh]]:
|data6={{lang|cy|Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon}}
 }}
 }}
 | common_name = United Kingdom
 | linking_name = the United Kingdom 
 | image_flag = Flag of the United Kingdom.svg
 | alt_flag = A flag featuring both cross and saltire in red, white and blue
 | image_coat = Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom.svg
 | alt_coat = Coat of arms containing shield and crown in centre, flanked
by lion and unicorn
 | symbol_type = {{nowrap|[[Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom|Royal
coat of arms]]{{#tag:ref |An alternative variant of the Royal coat of arms
is used in Scotland: [[:File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom
(Scotland).svg|[click to view image]]].|group="nb"
 | symbol_width = 90px
 | national_anthem = {{nowrap|1="[[God Save the Queen]]"{{#tag:ref |There
is no authorised version of the national anthem as the words are a matter
of tradition; only the first verse is usually sung.{{cite
web|title=National Anthem|url=
https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem|website=Official web site of the
British Royal Family|accessdate=4 June 2016}} No law was passed
making "God Save the Queen" the official anthem. In the English tradition,
such laws are not necessary; proclamation and usage are sufficient to make
it the national anthem. "God Save the Queen" also serves as the [[Honors
music|Royal anthem]] for certain [[Commonwealth realms]]. |group="nb"}}
[[File:United States Navy Band - God Save
the Queen.ogg|center]]}}
 | image_map = EU-United Kingdom.svg
 | alt_map = Two islands to the north-west of continental Europe.
Highlighted are the larger island and the north-eastern fifth of the
smaller island to the west.
 | map_caption = {{map_caption |countryprefix=the
|country={{nobold|UnitedKingdom}} |location_color=dark green
|region=Europe |region_color=dark grey |subregion=the
[[EuropeanUnion]] |subregion_color=green}}
 | languages_type = Official language{{nobold|and national language}}
 | languages = [[English language|English]]
 | languages2_type = Recognised regionallanguages{{#tag:ref |Under
the [[Council of Europe]]'s [[European Charter for Regional or Minority
Languages]], Scots, Ulster Scots, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic and Irish
are officially recognised as [[Regional language|regional]] or [[Minority
language|minority]] languages by the [[Government of the United
Kingdom|British government]] for the purposes of the Charter.{{cite web |url=
http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/Commun/ListeDeclarations.asp?CL=ENG=148=1
|title=List of declarations made with respect to treaty No. 148
|publisher=[[Council of Europe]] |accessdate=12 December 2013}} See
also [[Languages of the United Kingdom]]. |group="nb"}}
 | languages2 =
{{hlist|list_style=line-height:1.3em;|item_style=white-space; |[[Scots
language|Scots]]|[[Ulster Scots dialects|UlsterScots]]|[[Welsh
language|Welsh]]|[[Cornish
language|Cornish]]|[[ScottishGaelic]]|[[Irish language|Irish]]}}
 | ethnic_groups = {{ublist|list_style=line-height:1.3em; |class=nowrap
|87.1% [[White people|White]] |7.0% [[British Asian|Asian]] |3.0% [[Black
British|Black]] |2.0% [[Mixed (United Kingdom ethnicity category)|Mixed]]
|0.9% others}}
 | ethnic_groups_year = [[United Kingdom Census 2011|2011]]
 | demonym = {{hlist|[[British people|British]] | Briton}}
 | capital = [[London]]
 | latd=51 |latm=30 |latNS=N |longd=0 |longm=7 |longEW=W
 | largest_city = capital
 | 

Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Scott MacLeod]

If an easy-to-use Citation Reference Toolbar form emerges as you'd like in
a Wikipedia infobox proposal, Erika (and Wikidatans), I wonder, and am
asking how, in general, it could code for all 358 languages in
Wikipedia/Wikidata with translation (and anticipate all 8k languages with
unicode eventually)? Also how could folks write apps on this to create
referencing programs for a academic papers (e.g. in the Chicago Manual of
Style style, or the American Chemical Engineering citation style - or in
similar styles in Japanese or Swedish? - there are possibly 10s of
thousands of these citation styles in many languages in many academic
disciplines).

Dario shared this 2 days ago - http://allourideas.org/wikidata/results -
and it's good to see that a "Wizard-style dialog for entering references"
in 9 out of 10 on a list of "What's the one thing you wish Wikidata had or
would do but doesn't yet?"

... all in a little info box bridge between wiki and wikidata ... 'tis a
lot to ask of a little info box :)

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Brill Lyle  wrote:

> Because this proposal involves depreciating the infobox to Wikipedia -- my
> biggest concern -- I changed my endorsement to Weak Support but under no
> circumstances implement on English Wikipedia. I think it would be a very
> bad approach.
>
> The Danish examples seemed more ideal, which was why I changed to Support.
>
> I also really don't like this sequential list of elements. The faceted
> element=value relationship is gone, and adding Wikidata numbers to
> Wikipedia is very backwards.
>
> Again, I would like this proposal to involve creating a form (in Wiki
> Markup) that is filled in like with the Cite RefToolbar -- see
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RefToolbar-URL-autofill.png --
> minus the lookups
>
> I am not seeing a value add to this proposal's implementation. The
> barriers to entry for editors is very high.
>
> - Erika
>
>
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
>


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- World University and School
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

Because this proposal involves depreciating the infobox to Wikipedia -- my
biggest concern -- I changed my endorsement to Weak Support but under no
circumstances implement on English Wikipedia. I think it would be a very
bad approach.

The Danish examples seemed more ideal, which was why I changed to Support.

I also really don't like this sequential list of elements. The faceted
element=value relationship is gone, and adding Wikidata numbers to
Wikipedia is very backwards.

Again, I would like this proposal to involve creating a form (in Wiki
Markup) that is filled in like with the Cite RefToolbar -- see
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RefToolbar-URL-autofill.png --
minus the lookups

I am not seeing a value add to this proposal's implementation. The barriers
to entry for editors is very high.

- Erika
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Info WorldUniversity]

Hi Markus and All,

Looking forward to when further parts of this Wikidata-Wikipedia bridging
puzzle come together - and re Wikipedia Info Boxes and Wikidata Items (
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Infoboxes &
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Infoboxes). I wonder in what ways
a templates' approach could FURTHER play a complementary role here (which
might be something for a new different thread than this "info box proposal"
Wikidata thread) and in terms of making easy using Wikidata ITEMS (SQL) in
new ways in conjunction with ongoing ease of end-user editing (e..g. in
wiki or Wikipedia).

While this templates' approach may find best form in MediaWiki (so visual
editor et al), I have in mind this central World University and School
SUBJECT TEMPLATE - http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/SUBJECT_TEMPLATE (and
its related templates: Languages (all), Nation States (all, each a major
university), Museums, etc., at bottom ) - which inform almost all 720 pages
of WUaS currently (which is mostly in English currently, except for the CC
MIT OCW in 7 languages) but plans to be in all 358 Wikipedia languages (and
eventually in all 8k languages) - for thinking further about this. WUaS
donated itself to Wikidata last autumn.

Wikipedia info boxes may be the answer to this Templates' approach - by
building in differentially developing Wikipedia info boxes for their
relative ease of use with structured data/Items into Templates for use in
new ways. I'm thinking here about what's ahead with voice for Wikidata, and
how I might be able to say (in Android currently) to my phone "please add
this link to "regional languages in Germany" to the Germany Wikipedia
information box with its links to Wikidata items here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany (e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Germany) - like one sees in
India Wikipedia information box here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India
(e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India). Would using voice
with info boxes into Wikidata facilitate new kinds of ease of use in
Wikidata? Could we dedicate a specific kind of Wikipedia info box to voice
developments (... and later use brain wave headsets for adding information
in a kind of drag and drop a link ... and then even later develop this
voice approach - voice is so easy! - (and beyond that brainwave headsets)
with SQL ad SQID, for example.

I'm wondering further, thinking ahead, re info boxes and the WUaS SUBJECT
TEMPLATE +, whether it might be possible to turn each "subsection" in WUaS
into a kind of dedicated Wikipedia info box <> Wikidata items ... and
anticipate both voice, head sets and SQL. Are these some logical next steps
in this puzzle coming together, Markus and All?

As the pieces of the puzzle come further together, the beauty of a
"templates approach" offering specialization of info boxes (re accessing
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Data_access) - is their ease of
editing - like in Wikipedia - and their potential for exploring interfacing
with structured data in possibly new unfolding ways.

Thank you for these great Wikidata and Wikipedia projects - now in all 358
languages.

Cheers, Scott



On Aug 3, 2016 9:16 AM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)"  wrote:

> Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 13:30:
>
>> Huge barrier for Wikipedia end-users.
>>
>
> What makes you think so? Did you interview or observe users editing? In my
> experience, Wikidata is much easier for newbies to grasp than wikitext or
> even VisualEditor: like VisualEditor's template editor, Wikidata resembles
> a standard form, which people are used to.
>
> We only need to make sure there are direct deep links from each piece of
> displayed (or missing) information to the statement on Wikidata where they
> are (or should be); and later add dialogs for direct editing from the
> client wikis, as was done long ago with the interlanguage links.
>
> Nemo
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

Really appreciate what you wrote here Markus. Thank you.

After doing a bunch of digging around and collecting questions on the
Discussion page of the proposed Grant, Finn Årup Nielsen (fnielsen) (Thank
you!) provided two examples of roughly what I believe this might look like,
which I am sharing here for anyone who hasn't seen it:

Person: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svend_Auken
Company: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bispebjerg_Hospital

Maybe I have comfort with editing template boxes, and assume this is a
minimal barrier, but seeing the possible implementation answered much of my
concerns. This does not seem to be a depreciation away from Wikipedia, I
don't think, like Authority Control was.

I still don't 100% understand how the interface is edited and wonder if
marking the Wikidata page with icons to note the source (i.e., Infobox,
Authority Control) but that might be overkill / unnecessary. (?) But from
these examples I will definitely revise my Endorsement.

Thanks again,

- Erika



*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Markus Kroetzsch <
markus.kroetz...@tu-dresden.de> wrote:

> Mh. Is this actually leading anywhere? I can see both views, but there is
> a danger that things are getting non-constructive here. A particular issue
> in my view is playing the "Wikipedia-vs-Wikidata" card. I don't see things
> in this way, and I hope most Wikipedia and Wikidata editors don't either.
>
> Of course there are different interfaces and different pitfalls for each
> system. Let's face it: both are far from perfect when it comes to UI.
> People use them because they are extremely important projects, in spite --
> not because -- of the UIs. I have also read about missing documentation on
> how to do things. Again, I don't think either project really shines here.
> There often is documentation if you know where to look, but if you just
> come by the page and want to work, it is very difficult to find it. Things
> could be much better.
>
> Therefore, any approach that looks only at current editors (who already
> have made a lot of effort to wrap their heads around one of the
> not-always-intuitive processes and interfaces) is necessarily too limited.
> Their tolerance to the "other" UI will be as low as anybody's (ask someone
> on the street how nice they find either template editing or Wikidata input
> forms -- you'll get similar views). At the same time, current users often
> have a kind of Stockholm syndrome towards the UI they are used to. We have
> to take their views very serious, but we must not build our sites only for
> the people who already use them now.
>
> The question therefore is not at all which of the current UIs is better,
> but rather how both can be improved. For this list, this mainly leads to
> the question how Wikidata can be improved. The practical insights gathered
> with different editor groups around the world are useful here. The findings
> need to be split into small, actionable units and prioritized. Then they
> will be fixed.
>
> For this to work, it is completely irrelevant if more people like one UI
> or more people like the other. Since the UIs are doing completely different
> things, we won't be able to replace one by the other anyway. All we can do
> is to improve on our side. For this reason, any "vs"-themed discussion can
> only be harmful, attracting trolls who love to chime in whenever there is
> critique, and frustrate contributors who would rather like to get things
> done than to argue.
>
> As for the (little) project that started this discussion, I think it
> should not be overrated in its scope. If people don't find the current UI
> usable enough, they will not switch to use it until we have our processes
> improved. But having other pieces of the puzzle in place will increase the
> pressure on Wikidata to fix remaining pain points, and possibly do exactly
> what Erika is asking for: make the voice of current Wikipedia editors
> (even) more relevant to ongoing Wikidata development.
>
> Peace,
>
> Markus
>
>
>
> On 03.08.2016 19:24, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>
>> Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 19:20:
>>
>>> I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on Wikidata. Is that what you are
>>> describing?
>>>
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Nemo
>>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Markus Kroetzsch]

Mh. Is this actually leading anywhere? I can see both views, but there 
is a danger that things are getting non-constructive here. A particular 
issue in my view is playing the "Wikipedia-vs-Wikidata" card. I don't 
see things in this way, and I hope most Wikipedia and Wikidata editors 
don't either.


Of course there are different interfaces and different pitfalls for each 
system. Let's face it: both are far from perfect when it comes to UI. 
People use them because they are extremely important projects, in spite 
-- not because -- of the UIs. I have also read about missing 
documentation on how to do things. Again, I don't think either project 
really shines here. There often is documentation if you know where to 
look, but if you just come by the page and want to work, it is very 
difficult to find it. Things could be much better.


Therefore, any approach that looks only at current editors (who already 
have made a lot of effort to wrap their heads around one of the 
not-always-intuitive processes and interfaces) is necessarily too 
limited. Their tolerance to the "other" UI will be as low as anybody's 
(ask someone on the street how nice they find either template editing or 
Wikidata input forms -- you'll get similar views). At the same time, 
current users often have a kind of Stockholm syndrome towards the UI 
they are used to. We have to take their views very serious, but we must 
not build our sites only for the people who already use them now.


The question therefore is not at all which of the current UIs is better, 
but rather how both can be improved. For this list, this mainly leads to 
the question how Wikidata can be improved. The practical insights 
gathered with different editor groups around the world are useful here. 
The findings need to be split into small, actionable units and 
prioritized. Then they will be fixed.


For this to work, it is completely irrelevant if more people like one UI 
or more people like the other. Since the UIs are doing completely 
different things, we won't be able to replace one by the other anyway. 
All we can do is to improve on our side. For this reason, any 
"vs"-themed discussion can only be harmful, attracting trolls who love 
to chime in whenever there is critique, and frustrate contributors who 
would rather like to get things done than to argue.


As for the (little) project that started this discussion, I think it 
should not be overrated in its scope. If people don't find the current 
UI usable enough, they will not switch to use it until we have our 
processes improved. But having other pieces of the puzzle in place will 
increase the pressure on Wikidata to fix remaining pain points, and 
possibly do exactly what Erika is asking for: make the voice of current 
Wikipedia editors (even) more relevant to ongoing Wikidata development.


Peace,

Markus


On 03.08.2016 19:24, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 19:20:

I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on Wikidata. Is that what you are
describing?


No.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 19:20:

I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on Wikidata. Is that what you are
describing?


No.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

I think you are misunderstanding. I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on
Wikidata. Is that what you are describing?

I am talking about editing Wiki Markup on Wikipedia. I am expecting this
interface to be editable on Wikipedia, not having it force Wikipedia
editors to edit infoboxes on Wikipedia only in Wikidata.


*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
wrote:

> Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 18:53:
>
>> Speaking of: Where's the user documentation for Authority Control? Have
>> you tried to update and/or add Authority Control on Wikidata manually?
>>
>
> Sure. I've also taught dozens of persons and none of them preferred
> entering said data via wikitext (despite being taught that option too).
>
>
> Nemo
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 18:53:

Speaking of: Where's the user documentation for Authority Control? Have
you tried to update and/or add Authority Control on Wikidata manually?


Sure. I've also taught dozens of persons and none of them preferred 
entering said data via wikitext (despite being taught that option too).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

I am basing my concerns on my own experience editing Wikidata as well as
two separate workshops where Wikimedia NYC Wikipedia editors were taught
and edited Wikidata and discussed end-user challenges both times.

I disagree that Wikidata is easier to edit than Wiki Markup or Visual
Editor. The null responses when trying to save, those alone, if you are not
using the controlled expected vocabularies presents huge barriers to
editing. Frankly, manual editing takes forever. Sorry totally disagree.

Deep links is well and good but how about user documentation and making it
a seamless experience for Wikipedia editors -- not just for Wikidata
editors? I think you are missing the point of my concerns here. And to make
such a significant change and implement it with no regard for Wikipedia
editors, the whole thing seems very non-ideal and problematic. And biased
towards Wikidata.

There seems to be a lack of focus on the casual Wikipedia editor and their
needs. The focus is on Wikidata, which is fine if you are doing Wikidata
editing or running queries, I guess. But for this to be interoperable
between Wikipedia and Wikidata, the usability for an end-user is an issue.
And more importantly a barrier.

Speaking of: Where's the user documentation for Authority Control? Have you
tried to update and/or add Authority Control on Wikidata manually? It is
clunky and difficult and you need to know Wikidata to do it. I keep
whinging and moaning enough about it maybe I'll try to do a rapid grant to
fund a project so I can carve out time to create something finally.

For the Infobox template it's even more elements, and it's unclear to me
how an Infobox populates on Wikidata.

And are all Infobox templates on Wikipedia considered here? Are all
elements going to translate, exhaustively?

I had the same concern with the RefToolbar Cite templates, which was part
of the bibliographic metadata focus at WikiCite 2016 recently. What is the
point of Wikipedia editors using these great templates in Wikipedia when
there is no effort by Wikidata to create pathways and integrate existing
Wikipedia templates into the semantics of Wikidata? I find this maddening.
And a big problem.

- Erika



*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
wrote:

> Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 13:30:
>
>> Huge barrier for Wikipedia end-users.
>>
>
> What makes you think so? Did you interview or observe users editing? In my
> experience, Wikidata is much easier for newbies to grasp than wikitext or
> even VisualEditor: like VisualEditor's template editor, Wikidata resembles
> a standard form, which people are used to.
>
> We only need to make sure there are direct deep links from each piece of
> displayed (or missing) information to the statement on Wikidata where they
> are (or should be); and later add dialogs for direct editing from the
> client wikis, as was done long ago with the interlanguage links.
>
> Nemo
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Brill Lyle, 03/08/2016 13:30:

Huge barrier for Wikipedia end-users.


What makes you think so? Did you interview or observe users editing? In 
my experience, Wikidata is much easier for newbies to grasp than 
wikitext or even VisualEditor: like VisualEditor's template editor, 
Wikidata resembles a standard form, which people are used to.


We only need to make sure there are direct deep links from each piece of 
displayed (or missing) information to the statement on Wikidata where 
they are (or should be); and later add dialogs for direct editing from 
the client wikis, as was done long ago with the interlanguage links.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Brill Lyle]

Agree. I will take it to the discussion page. Wanted to get more feedback
and guidance here but this seems to be an ongoing issue that is probably
not resolvable, at least not now.

- Erika


*Erika Herzog*
Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle *

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Lydia Pintscher <
lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Brill Lyle  wrote:
> > The paper focuses, yet again on Visual Editor. And while I understand
> that
> > many editors prefer this, any implementation must service both the Visual
> > Editor users as well as the Wiki Markup users.
> >
> > Again, major concerns. I guess unless I have more off-Wiki conversations
> > about this topic, I will move my concerns to the proposal page.
> >
> > I believe in Wikidata and want to encourage usage -- and am trying to
> use it
> > more -- but unless you are running queries it's quite frankly a flipping
> > nightmare. I love the idea. Usability, not so much. And I know it is
> > improved and there are many smart people I admire involved in this
> project.
> > But the lack of buy-in by Wikipedia editors is happening for a reason.
>
> You are absolutely right that this is a big problem. However I believe
> that this grant proposal will get us closer to a solution than farther
> away.
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
>
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Lucie Kaffee]

Charlie wrote her thesis on how you could integrate Wikidata in Wikipedia,
specifically on Infoboxes, so that might be worth a look when it comes to
this topic, too.
So there is research from the UX perspective and how it'd be able to edit
etc available.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_Wikimedia_projects_with_a_user-centered_design_approach.pdf

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Yuri Astrakhan 
wrote:

> Erika, would building a better wikidata UI help alleviate your concern?
> For example, it used to be that to add a link to the same article in
> another language, one had to edit raw wiki markup and add a weird language
> link. Now with wikidata it is by far more intuitive, with an edit button
> right next to the list, with an auto-complete and language selector. Could
> we try to build something similar for the infoboxes?
>
> On Aug 3, 2016 2:31 PM, "Brill Lyle"  wrote:
>
>> Saw this posted on Twitter.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Project/Putnik/Wikidata_module
>>
>> This proposal is my greatest fear with Wikidata. Depreciate Infoboxes to
>> Wikidata so casual Wikipedia editors can't edit on Wiki, are forced to use
>> Wikidata (comparable to existing Authority Control depreciation). Huge
>> barrier for Wikipedia end-users.
>>
>> Before I voice my concerns on this Grant page, I wondered if the end-user
>> issue has been discussed here -- and if this could be explained why it is
>> such a good idea? And what user issues have been and could be addressed
>> before the project is implemented.
>>
>> I understand something like this is part of Russian Wikipedia. How did
>> that community respond to this what I see as significant change?
>>
>> - Erika
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikidata] Info box proposal

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Erika, would building a better wikidata UI help alleviate your concern?
For example, it used to be that to add a link to the same article in
another language, one had to edit raw wiki markup and add a weird language
link. Now with wikidata it is by far more intuitive, with an edit button
right next to the list, with an auto-complete and language selector. Could
we try to build something similar for the infoboxes?

On Aug 3, 2016 2:31 PM, "Brill Lyle"  wrote:

> Saw this posted on Twitter.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Project/Putnik/Wikidata_module
>
> This proposal is my greatest fear with Wikidata. Depreciate Infoboxes to
> Wikidata so casual Wikipedia editors can't edit on Wiki, are forced to use
> Wikidata (comparable to existing Authority Control depreciation). Huge
> barrier for Wikipedia end-users.
>
> Before I voice my concerns on this Grant page, I wondered if the end-user
> issue has been discussed here -- and if this could be explained why it is
> such a good idea? And what user issues have been and could be addressed
> before the project is implemented.
>
> I understand something like this is part of Russian Wikipedia. How did
> that community respond to this what I see as significant change?
>
> - Erika
>
>
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