[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  In T180345#7624467 , @mxn 
wrote:
  
  > Wikidata’s Vietnamese-language lexemes are currently using `vi-x-Q8201` as 
the language code for chữ Nôm, as a workaround for this issue:
  >
  > phở : 얾, 頗
  > râu : 鬍, 酺, 魶, 鯁
  
  
  
  In T180345#7916094 , @mxn 
wrote:
  
  > You do have a point that `vi-x-Q875344` would be more correct than 
`vi-x-Q8201` (and more specific, anyhow).
  
  Due to T236593 , it became 
necessary to split out //chữ Nôm// forms as separate lexemes. A lexeme’s 
language is stored as a QID, so I’ve used chữ Nôm (Q875344) 
 as the lexeme language instead of chữ 
Hán (Q8201) , which is too general. For 
consistency, I’ve changed the lemmas and form representations to use 
`vi-x-Q875344` instead of `vi-x-Q8201`, even though `vi-hani` would be a 
suitable monolingual language code to replace it with.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  In T180345#7916710 , 
@C933103 wrote:
  
  > In T180345#7916540 , 
@GerardM wrote:
  >
  >> So what is the font to be
  >> used?
  >
  > Please see this list of fonts: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Vi-nom/fonts.css
  
  For reference, here are similar font lists used by other WMF wikis:
  
  - English Wiktionary 

  - Vietnamese Wikipedia 

  - Vietnamese Wiktionary 

  
  Some of these fonts are specifically designed for //chữ Nôm//. The //Nôm// 
character repertoire in Unicode has expanded several times. The early favorite 
of the Vietnamese wikis, HAN NOM A/B 
, contains most 
//Nôm//-specific characters, but many of them are encoded in the Private Use 
Area because the font predates CJK Unified Ideographs Extension E in Unicode 
10. Aside from coverage, selecting a dedicated //Nôm// font is important 
because some important characters have distinct forms in each CJKV tradition 
that nevertheless got unified into a single Unicode codepoint.
  
  In T180345#7919332 , 
@Popolon wrote:
  
  >> By 1174, Hán tự/Hanzi had become the official writing script of the 
Vietnamese courts, mainly used by administration and literati, and continued to 
serve this role until the mid-19th century.
  >
  > As said previously, The Hán tự/Hanzi was still used during French 
colonization, there as documents of mid 20th century (including on commons) 
with still both chữ Nôm and lain script vietnamese and some French colony 
stamps. Some continue to use it today, there are several sites wrote using this 
script, and we can still see some videos using it as subtitles.
  
  This ticket tracks adding a monolingual language code, which would be useful 
regardless of exactly when //chữ nho// or //chữ Nôm// fell out of the 
mainstream. After all, we’ve already been resorting to workarounds like 
`vi-x-Q875344` in Wikidata lexemes for a while now, but no such workaround is 
possible for a native label  
statement on a family name item or inscription 
 statement on a commemorative 
plaque item, for example.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  > By 1174, Hán tự/Hanzi had become the official writing script of the 
Vietnamese courts, mainly used by administration and literati, and continued to 
serve this role until the mid-19th century.
  
  As said previously, The Hán tự/Hanzi was still used during French 
colonization, there as documents of mid 20th century (including on commons) 
with still both chữ Nôm and lain script vietnamese and some French colony 
stamps. Some continue to use it today, there are several sites wrote using this 
script, and we can still see some videos using it as subtitles.
  
  - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1938 Vietnamese Birth Certificate 
in Nôm.jpg 1938
  - 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vietnamese_Mixed_Script_in_the_Ho_Chi_Minh_Museum_in_2016.jpg
 1966

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  In T180345#7916540 , 
@GerardM wrote:
  
  > Hoi,
  > We can only support scripts supported in Unicode.
  
  As mentioned in previous posts, chu nom are already supported and added into 
Unicode through CJKV unified ideographic characters extensions.
  
  > So what is the font to be
  > used?
  
  Please see this list of fonts: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Vi-nom/fonts.css
  
  > Thanks,
  >
  >   GerardM

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[GerardM]

GerardM added a comment.


  Hoi,
  We can only support scripts supported in Unicode. So what is the font to be
  used?
  Thanks,
  
GerardM

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[Yellowtailshark]

Yellowtailshark added a comment.


  In T180345#7916094 , @mxn 
wrote:
  
  > Is it technically correct to interpret the English name of Hani in ISO 
15924 so literally? After all, chữ Nôm differs from chữ nho in terms of 
language usage and many specific characters, but the CJKV writing systems have 
been unified into a single subset of Unicode, including chữ Nôm. On the other 
hand, ISO 15924 does contain codes for typographic variants of scripts like 
Nastaliq Arabic (Aran) and Gaelic Latin (Latg).
  
  I think we can agree if it were explicit, it's a clear sign of intent and 
leaves little to misinterpretation. I just don't like getting ahead of the 
standards, but this is a minor point in any case. That Latin has variants shows 
that it is possible to distinguish chữ Nôm as its own variant, but equally true 
that chữ Nôm doesn't have a ISO 15924 code point of its own. But yes, with 
C933103's comment, I kinda see the argument for putting all Han orthography 
under the "Hani" code. I found this argument in favor of it from 2006 on a  
Hanja Wikipedia proposal 

 page. While there are constructions/compositions of Han characters into 
combinations that might only be intelligible to the Vietnamese literati of the 
time, it still follows the same rules of construction of Classical Chinese 
script in general. I'm studying the Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et 
Latinum 
, 
and although Latinized Middle Vietnamese had b-with-flourish ꞗ 
, apex diacritic 
, and a few other conventions 
no longer in use in modern Vietnamese orthography, it doesn't mean it merits 
its own Latin variation code.
  
  If we look at an example classical text, Chinh Phụ Ngâm Khúc 
,
 which is written in Han script, and later translated into Nôm script, if I 
were to encode this and give a user a choice between Han and Nôm, it would seem 
to me that Han is 'lzh' (Hani is implied I suppose), and Nôm would be 
'vi-Hani'. As long as there //is// a way to distinguish between the two texts, 
then I'm happy for it.
  
  In T180345#7916105 , 
@C933103 wrote:
  
  > But I think it is also not impossible to apply for another ISO 15924 code, 
given how Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese which have much less 
different from each others still received their individual code.
  
  If it ever happens, then we'll jump on that bandwagon. I think 'vi-Hani' is 
still a step in the right direction, compared to using 'vi-x-Q875344' for a 
rather currently pervasive usage among the Wikimedia projects.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  In T180345#7916094 , @mxn 
wrote:
  
  > Ken Lunde (2009)  
writes that //chữ Nôm// had a dedicated script code of `Cu` in ISO 15924:2004 
(which has since been superseded by ISO 15924:2022). Does anyone have more 
information about these two-letter codes or why //chữ Nôm// didn’t get a 
four-letter code corresponding to this two-letter code?
  
  That table is same as the table in Japanese version of the book, published in 
year 2002.  So it 
would be before the official publication of the ISO 15924. Given Unicode 
maintain a list of changes to ISO 15924 since the standard's official 
publication in 2004, and the list didn't include Chu nom, 
 I would assume the table in the 
book reflect content in the standard's draft that didn't make it to the 
ultimate list.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  "Hani" simply mean "Chinese[Han] characters".
  "vi-Hani" mean "Vietnamese, written in Chinese[Han] characters".
  Chu Nho, despite widely used in Vietnam in ancient time, are written 
according to Classical Chinese grammar, and as such should classify as 
Classical Chinese text, with code "lzh", similar to comparable works from 
Japan, Korea, and other neighboring regions.
  The existence of ISO code Jpan is for the mixed use of Kana together of Kanji 
in Japanese text, which is still the common writing system for Japanese system 
nowadays.
  The existence of the ISO code Kore is for the mixed use of Hangul together 
with Hanja in Korean text. Although Hanja's role in Korean language have 
greatly diminished, it is still not unexpected to see Hanja in modern Korean 
text, hence the code "Kore" which represent Hanja+Hangul is still the default 
code for Korean language writing system, at least in South Korea.
  On the other hand, I do not think the mixed use of Han characters with other 
writing systems, say Latin alphabets, is an expected usage in Vietnam nowadays, 
hence I don't think it is necessary to apply for a new ISO 15924 code for such 
mixed use to reflect this.
  
  As for "characters common between Chinese characters as used in China vs 
characters that only exists in Chu nom", note that both Japanese and Korean 
languages also have some Han characters uniquely created by them for their 
countries, but they simply treat them as part of the Han characters in their 
language, in the same way as all other imported Han characters. And would be 
tagged with script code "Hani".
  
  But I do note that one thing that separate the Vietnamese Chu Nom from those 
unique characters from Japanese/Korean is that, there are large number of them, 
and they are formed according to some rule for many Vietnamese indigenous 
words. They can be treated as Han characters, and also followed typical ways of 
Han characters formation by combining meanings and sounds of characters, and 
thus "Hani" code is applicable. But I think it is also not impossible to apply 
for another ISO 15924 code, given how Traditional Chinese and Simplified 
Chinese which have much less different from each others still received their 
individual code. On the other hand however, the classification of Hans versus 
Hant is necessary in rendering text in two different writing systems that both 
are part of the Chinese language, but it is not really the case for Vietnamese 
when Chu Nho are coded lzh.
  
  As for situation of other ISO 15924 codes like Latg, I don't think they are 
comparable, as they represent different characters and different ways to write 
the language. I guess it would be more comparable to say Seal scripts should 
get their own ISO 15924 codes.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  In T180345#7916018 , 
@Yellowtailshark wrote:
  
  > In other words, "vi-Hani" should refer to Hán tự/Hanzi. A person reading 
Classical Chinese should be able to discern its meaning and not really notice 
the source is from Vietnam.
  
  According to ISO 639, `vi` is the code for Vietnamese. `vi-Hani` cannot 
represent //chữ nho// because //chữ nho// is not a written form of the 
Vietnamese language per se. But `lzh` does represent Classical Chinese, 
including //chữ nho//.
  
  > But even though this is how it should be, one also has to note that "Hani" 
is only understood as "Hanzi, Kanji, Hanja", not "Hanzi, Kanji, Hanja, chữ 
Nôm/Hán tự". I'm worried we would be sidestepping the ISO, even if we know what 
Hán tự is.
  
  Is it technically correct to interpret the English name of `Hani` in ISO 
15924 so literally? After all, //chữ Nôm// differs from //chữ nho// in terms of 
language usage and many specific characters, but the CJKV writing systems have 
been unified 

 into a single subset of Unicode, including //chữ Nôm//. On the other hand, ISO 
15924 does contain codes for typographic variants of scripts like Nastaliq 
Arabic (`Aran`) and Gaelic Latin (`Latg`).
  
  Ken Lunde (2009)  
writes that //chữ Nôm// had a dedicated script code of `Cu` in ISO 15924:2004 
(which has since been superseded by ISO 15924:2022). Does anyone have more 
information about these two-letter codes or why //chữ Nôm// didn’t get a 
four-letter code corresponding to this two-letter code?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[Yellowtailshark]

Yellowtailshark added a comment.


  "Hani" in ISO 15924 is Hanzi, Kanji, Hanja. In Vietnamese it's chữ Hán, Hán 
tự, Hán văn, or chữ Nho.
  
  Chữ Nôm was a script invented and used exclusively in Vietnam. It uses Hán 
tự/Hanzi as a basis, but introduces a host of characters unique to Nôm. The 
Buddhist history Cổ Châu Pháp Vân phật bản hạnh ngữ lục (1752) gives the story 
of early Buddhism in Vietnam both in Hán tự/Hanzi script and in a parallel Nôm 
translation. The Jesuit Girolamo Maiorica (1605–1656) had also used parallel 
Hán tự/Hanzi and Nôm texts. By 1174, Hán tự/Hanzi had become the official 
writing script of the Vietnamese courts, mainly used by administration and 
literati, and continued to serve this role until the mid-19th century. Nôm 
gained parallel popularity among the literati for composing creative works.
  
  In other words, "vi-Hani" should refer to Hán tự/Hanzi. A person reading 
Classical Chinese should be able to discern its meaning and not really notice 
the source is from Vietnam. But chữ Nôm is a different script altogether, and 
generally cannot be understood by Classical Chinese readers. Now, there might 
be some characters which have no Hanzi/Nôm distinction, like thiên (天) 
"heaven", but just means Hanzi and Nôm have shared lexicons. If it's a 
Vietnamese dictionary entry for 天, I'd annotate it as "vi-Hani". But if it's a 
Nôm-exclusive character like ᦂ (chữ) "letter, character, word", then 
unfortunately there is no script code for chữ Nôm. But even though this is how 
it should be, one also has to note that "Hani" is only understood as "Hanzi, 
Kanji, Hanja", not "Hanzi, Kanji, Hanja, chữ Nôm/Hán tự". I'm worried we would 
be sidestepping the ISO, even if we know what Hán tự is.
  
  Japanese have Jpan for Han (Hani) + Hiragana (Hira) + Katakana (Kana).
  Korean has Kore for Hangul (Hang) + Han (Hani).
  Vietnamese need their own chữ Nôm entry within ISO 15924. There is already 
precedence within it for other ancient and historical scripts. As a workaround, 
I suppose similar to vi-x-Q8201 to refer to Vietnamese written in Hán tự/Hanzi 
(although they should really just annotate it as vi-Hani), chữ Nôm will have to 
be vi-x-Q875344.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  I have removed the Korean part of the ticket and focus on Vietnamese writing, 
due to problem of ambiguity of "Kore" script tag in ISO 15924, as mentioned in 
December 2020.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani

[C933103]

C933103 renamed this task from "Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore" 
to "Add monolingual language code vi-hani".
C933103 updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  It is in standard [https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Category:ISO_15924:Hani ISO 
15924], and it was still used officially until the mid of the 20th century. It 
is still used at least by scholars and some people that like to continue to use 
it in Vietnam.
  
  - [[:File:1938 Vietnamese Birth Certificate in Nôm.jpg]] 1938
  - [[:File:Vietnamese_Mixed_Script_in_the_Ho_Chi_Minh_Museum_in_2016.jpg]] 1966

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  Is vi-x-Q8201 a standard? If it's not, why for create a new name please? They 
are one variant of Hani characters (called Hán tự (漢字) in vietnamese) chữ Nôm

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn changed the task status from "Stalled" to "Open".

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  Wikidata’s Vietnamese-language lexemes are currently using `vi-x-Q8201` as 
the language code for chữ Nôm, as a workaround for this issue:
  
  phở : 얾, 頗
  râu : 鬍, 酺, 魶, 鯁

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  Generally, in en.wiktionary, article in the Category:Sino-Vietnamese_word 
have their vi-Hani version.
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Sino-Vietnamese_words

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  On the vietnamese wikipedia:
  
  https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chữ_Hán
  
  - 名 “danh”
  - 書 “thư”
  - 文 “văn”
  - 字 “tự”
  - 漢字 “Hán tự”.
  
  Or more specialized article: https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chữ_Nôm

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  The Wiktionary as a lot of samples in vi-Hani.
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/留#Vietnamese

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 changed the task status from "Open" to "Stalled".
Esc3300 added a comment.


  This is still lacks samples, despite the request at T180345#6710271 
 (see 
Requirements_for_a_new_language_code 
)
  
  I think we should //decline// this. If still needed, new requests can be made 
(ideally one per language).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  In T180345#6710271 , 
@Nikki wrote:
  
  > I think it would be useful to see some examples of how these would be 
used/what they would be used for.
  >
  > I'm not sure that `ko-kore` (or `ko-hani`) would be the best way to add 
text containing hanja because wouldn't we want it to be linked to the 
corresponding hangul? Years ago, I proposed a "hanja" property for Korean 
(proposal here 
) . 
It was rejected at the time but I still think that would be the best way to do 
it and perhaps it would be a good idea to revisit it.
  >
  > I imagine it's a similar situation for `vi-hani`.
  
  I also proposed a chữ Nôm property 
 for lexemes 
that was similarly rejected in favor of a semantically distinct property 
. I remain convinced about the 
need for the property I proposed, but I haven’t had a chance to press that 
point. For the time being, there isn’t really a path to bring the Vietnamese 
Wiktionary’s large body of chữ Nôm data to Wikidata in a semantically correct 
way.
  
  Anyhow, that proposal only made sense in the context of a lexeme. A “chữ Nôm 
name” property on an item would have to be qualified by applies to name of item 
(P5168) , with a constraint that 
it could only apply to a Vietnamese label, and there would have to be separate 
properties for “chữ Nôm given name”, “chữ Nôm birth name”, “chữ Nôm 
inscription”, etc. I think a monolingual language code would be cleaner.
  
  Another issue is that the Vietnamese Wikisource currently hosts a number of 
older Vietnamese works with the Latin and chữ Nôm transcriptions either side by 
side  or on 
separate pages . 
I suspect that, in the long term, better supporting this diglossia will require 
software support for `vi-hani` as a language code somewhere or other.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  Should the task be spilt to two?
  
  In T180345#6709988 , 
@Mahir256 wrote:
  
  > I'd just like to note that the Suppress-Script value for Korean according 
to the official subtag registry 

 is in fact Kore (meaning ko-Kore as a code is redundant in the eyes of a 
number of organizations).
  
  The thing with the "Kore" script tag is that, it indicate mixed use of Korean 
Hangul (Phonetic) and Hanja (Ideographic) characters, but it didn't indicate 
the ratio.
  Currently in regular Korean text, almost everything are being written in 
Hangul. But from time to time there can still be a few common shorthand Hanja 
characters in use in Korean text, in addition pf writing out Hanja as 
disambiguation in some situation. So I guess you can say it is a mixed script 
as well.
  On the other hand, what I originally have in mind was that, since many Korean 
term, especially proper noun, are originated or created based on Han characters 
and that they can be written as Hanja completely, it would not be possible to 
write Hanja for terms natively used in Korean or terms imported from Western 
languages in modern time. Such that, there are terms that can partially be 
written in Hanja but other parts need to be written as Hangul instead, like 
"Seoul Special City" or "Asiana Airlines", thus constitute another forn of 
mixed usage.
  I guess one can say it should use the "Hani" script tag instead since the 
intention is to show the Hanja characters of the terms, but then a problem is I 
don't think Hangul characters are to be expected for the Hani scripte value?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Nikki]

Nikki added a comment.


  I think it would be useful to see some examples of how these would be 
used/what they would be used for.
  
  I'm not sure that `ko-kore` (or `ko-hani`) would be the best way to add text 
containing hanja because wouldn't we want it to be linked to the corresponding 
hangul? Years ago, I proposed a "hanja" property for Korean (proposal here 
) . 
It was rejected at the time but I still think that would be the best way to do 
it and perhaps it would be a good idea to revisit it.
  
  I imagine it's a similar situation for `vi-hani`.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  I'd just like to note that the Suppress-Script value for Korean according to 
the official subtag registry 

 is in fact Kore (meaning ko-Kore as a code is redundant in the eyes of a 
number of organizations).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mbch331]

Mbch331 added a comment.


  In T180345#6458503 , 
@jhsoby wrote:
  
  > These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any 
comments.
  
  Ping @Amire80 Could you please respond?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  Adding chữ Nôm would be a nice improvement for Vietnamese-language Wikimedia 
projects as well as for federated projects. For example, an infobox at the 
Vietnamese Wikipedia could display the historical chữ Nôm name of a place or 
person. OpenStreetMap currently has a nonnegligible number of chữ Nôm names 
, even though the 
project is supposed to focus on current details rather than historical details. 
It’s likely that the people who contributed these names would be less likely to 
add them to OSM if they were able to add them to Wikidata, where historical 
nuances could be better accounted for (like the distinction between Ho Chi Minh 
City and Saigon).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mbch331]

Mbch331 added a comment.


  In T180345#6458503 , 
@jhsoby wrote:
  
  > These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any 
comments.
  
  Ping @Amire80 Can you respond to jhsoby?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter removed a parent task: T144272: [DO NOT USE] new monolingual 
language code requests for Wikidata (tracking)  [superseded by #language_codes].

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[jhsoby]

jhsoby added a subscriber: Amire80.
jhsoby added a comment.


  These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any comments.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[jhsoby]

jhsoby added a project: Language codes.

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