[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel removed subtasks: T319288: Implement v0.2 of the mul language code and 
deploy to Test and Beta Wikidata, T313024: Implement v0.3 of the mul language 
code and deploy to Test Wikidata, T312511: Deploy release version v1.0 of mul 
language code to Wikidata, T297393: Implement v0.1 of the mul language code and 
deploy to Test Wikidata.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: abian, dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel added a subtask: T319288: Implement v0.2 of the mul language code and 
deploy to Test and Beta Wikidata.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: abian, dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel removed a subtask: T304976: MUL - Ensure that the Community knows how to 
make WDQS label service fall back to mul labels.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: abian, dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel added a subtask: T312097: [EPIC] Enable language code mul on Wikidata .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel removed a parent task: T312097: [EPIC] Enable language code mul on 
Wikidata .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel added a parent task: T312097: [EPIC] Enable language code mul on 
Wikidata .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel removed a subtask: T312107: Inline search on Wikidata is unable to find 
all mul labels and aliases .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel removed a subtask: T312109: Search for haslabel:mul does not show 
results on Wikidata .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel added a subtask: T313024: Implement v0.2 of the mul language code and 
deploy to Test Wikidata.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases

[Manuel]

Manuel renamed this task from "Add termbox language code mul" to "Add termbox 
language code mul to reduce redundancy in Wikidata Labels and Aliases".

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel changed the subtype of this task from "Task" to "Goal".

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel edited projects, added Wikidata-Campsite; removed Wikidata-Campsite 
(Team A Hearth ).

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel added a subtask: T312109: Enable haslabel:mul for search on Wikidata .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel added a subtask: T312107: Enable the inline search on Wikidata to find 
mul labels and aliases .

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel closed subtask T297393: Implement basic version of mul language code and 
deploy to Test Wikidata as Resolved.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: dcausse, Naseweis520, Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, 
Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, 
Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, mrephabricator, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, 
Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Aklapper, 
Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, 
Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel added a comment.


  Thank you all for your input on this! We will put this in development right 
after the no deploy weeks. Special thanks go to @Nikki and @Mahir256, for 
driving and enlightening this issue, and to @Amire80 and @Epidosis, for your 
valuable input!
  
  @Esc3300: You also gave helpful input and we appreciate the effort! At the 
same time, your style of engagement and your continued disagreement with the 
direction that we took in the deliberation seems to have ultimately led to some 
demotivating arguments and loops in the discussion. I am sad to see that all of 
this resulted in a bad climate and a frustrating experience for some of the 
discussion's participants. It is essential for Lydia and me that - especially 
for hard decisions like these - we still maintain an open and welcoming climate 
for all people involved, as well as a worthwhile and productive discussion. 
This is why we would like to ask you for your help in fostering more open and 
welcoming discussions that respect our process in the future.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, 
Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel edited projects, added Wikidata-Campsite (Team A Hearth ); removed 
Wikidata-Campsite.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Manuel
Cc: Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, 
Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

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To: Manuel
Cc: Abbe98, Winston_Sung, William_Avery, Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, 
Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  What "constraints" will there be (this is currently step #3)
  
  In T285156#7388535 , 
@Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
  
  > - Could this solution somehow backfire? -> several answers in this thread 
that we will weigh and see if they warrant any action
  
  Can yo propose something?
  
  Step #3 mentions constraints. What will they be?

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To: Esc3300
Cc: Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, 
Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  Sure.
  
  - Could this solution somehow backfire? -> several answers in this thread 
that we will weigh and see if they warrant any action
  - What are all the 

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  If this is the only open point, can you summarize how the open points 
mentioned in the task description had been addressed ?

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To: Esc3300
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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  There is no disagreement.
  We are spending a lot of time discussing things that currently don't move 
this forward and do not help get to a meaningful consensus. So one final try. 
We need input on the final remaining discussion points as I laid out in 
T285156#7384455 . Let's 
please concentrate on those now so that we can then update the task description 
once we heard everyone.

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, 
Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Apparently there is a disagreement between Lucas and his manager about 
description editing.
  
  Can you at least explain which parts you consider my personal opinion and 
which ones are not supported by a consensus (ideally with a link to the 
relevant discussion)?

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To: Esc3300
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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Changes for task description are:
  
  | Before my edit  



  | After my edit (later deleted without an explanation or 
justification   




 | Reason   

|
  | 
-
 | 
---
 | 

 |
  | editors having to create and maintain redundant content (copying the same 
thing to most/all languages creates massive amounts of edits and is a huge 
waste of resources) 

 | editors having to create and maintain redundant 
content (copying the same thing to most/all languages could create massive 
amounts of edits and is a huge waste of resources)  



 | all descriptions and labels 
can be added in a single edit   
 |
  | Problem 



  | Problem 





| [header repeated for clarity] 

   |
  | 



  | user tend to fill in empty label fields, especially when a 
description in the language is present  




 |
  | 
  

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  For those who would like a clarification,
  
  > please refrain from editing the task description while the discussion is 
ongoing.
  
  this is the former part of Lucas's message
  
  > It is inappropriate to masquerade your personal opinion as the hard-won 
consensus that we are trying to achieve here.
  
  and this is the latter part.
  
  (More on the "sea lion" term. )

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  In T285156#7388192 , 
@Mahir256 wrote:
  
  >> please refrain from editing the task description while the discussion is 
ongoing. It is inappropriate to masquerade your personal opinion as the 
hard-won consensus that we are trying to achieve here.
  >
  > This message (especially the latter part) is enough of a reason
  
  @Mahir Can you explain which parts the later part covers? If not, please 
refrain from making such comments in phabricator or elsewhere.

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  In T285156#7388183 , 
@Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
  
  > @Esc3300 For clarification: Lucas and I spent a lot of time yesterday on 
getting everything to a point where we believe it is sensible and the remaining 
questions are clarified. It'd be good to concentrate the discussion on those 
remaining points now
  
  Ok. What's to proposal for the various points in how it may backfire? And 
finally which script do you want to start with

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Mahir256]

Mahir256 removed a subscriber: Esc3300.
Mahir256 added a comment.


  > please refrain from editing the task description while the discussion is 
ongoing. It is inappropriate to masquerade your personal opinion as the 
hard-won consensus that we are trying to achieve here.
  
  This message (especially the latter part) is enough of a reason to undo the 
changes made to the ticket since Nikki's comments were added, irrespective of 
what opinions I may hold of any of it (which should not be assumed as was done 
in the diff that stains this task). The sea lion 
 I am removing from this ticket is 
also free to impugn Lucas's or Lydia's credibility or emotional strength as 
well.

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To: Mahir256
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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a subscriber: Esc3300.
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  @Esc3300 For clarification: Lucas and I spent a lot of time yesterday on 
getting everything to a point where we believe it is sensible and the remaining 
questions are clarified. It'd be good to concentrate the discussion on those 
remaining points now because otherwise we can not move this forward. As there 
is a strong desire from several editors to get this done I want to push this to 
the point where we can actually pick it up.

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: Esc3300, Mahir256, Ash_Crow, Moebeus, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, So9q, Ainali, 
Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Can you explain the reminder of your deletions?  Above what you deleted from 
the description.

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  > @Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE that should have been. I removed Mahir256 as they 
seem to be doing nonsensical edits to subscribers.
  
  The presence of the user I am removing—not just here, but in any other 
discussion forum really—has made @Nikki (and others, both actually and 
potentially) sufficiently uncomfortable directly opining here and in those 
other fora that others like myself relay their opinions here for them. Unless 
that user wishes to impugn the credibility or emotional strength of Nikki and 
those other individuals, I contend that my actions in this regard are entirely 
sensical.

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Odd that some of known issues shouldn't be stated in the task description.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 removed a subscriber: LucasWerkmeister.
Esc3300 added a comment.


  @Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE  that should have been. I removed Mahir256 as they 
seem to be doing nonsensical edits to subscribers.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 edited subscribers, added: LucasWerkmeister; removed: Mahir256.
Esc3300 added a comment.


  @LucasWerkmeister  Can you outline which of the deleted points you consider 
problematic?  Lydia generally wants to summary in task descriptions to be up-to 
date. If you just remove stuff, we are missing out on information.

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Epidosis, Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
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[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a subscriber: Esc3300.
Mahir256 added a comment.


  In T285156#7387184 , 
@Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE wrote:
  
  > please refrain from editing the task description while the discussion is 
ongoing.
  
  I believe most of the offending task description edits (after my repost of 
Nikki's thoughts) have been removed.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Mahir256, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
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[Mahir256]

Mahir256 removed a subscriber: Esc3300.
Mahir256 updated the task description.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
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[Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE]

Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE added a comment.


  @Esc3300 please refrain from editing the task description while the 
discussion is ongoing. It is inappropriate to masquerade your personal opinion 
as the hard-won consensus that we are trying to achieve here.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Mahir256, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 updated the task description.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
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[Esc3300]

Esc3300 updated the task description.

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Shushugah, Manuel, Nikki, Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, 
ChristianKl, Mahir256, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  OTH, name items only need one label and transliterations could go into 
statements. So the setting would be "mul" + name > no other labels.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  @Epidosis
  
  The problem with "mul" is that we couldn't easily have the software test if 
there should be ru/uk label (as for "John"), but no la/fr/en label on name 
items.
  
  While when we have "mul-latn" and name, we could avoid adding la/fr/en, but 
not ru/uk.
  
  I don't mind testing it with disambiguation pages, but in general, I still 
think T139912  is worthwhile. Maybe 
asteroids could be another test field.
  
  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q59238742 might be tricky. @en and @mul-latn 
would have the same label (unless we decide that such items should only have 
@it and @en)
  
  In any case, I like the idea that all these items would get much lighter.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  In a case like https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q191118, I tend to think a 
general label is not applicable (each language has its name for "tonne"); 
having "mul-lat" and "mul-cyr", I would set "t" as "mul-lat" alias and "т" as 
"mul-cyr" alias; having only "mul", I would set both "t" and "т" as "mul" 
aliases. Anyway, it is reasonable to start applying "mul" (or similar) with 
specific types of items (I tried to list them above; starting with some of 
them, as disambiguations, could work well).
  
  The idea of an apposite code for Latin name of taxa seems very interesting to 
me.
  
  In T285156#7322423 , 
@Epidosis wrote:
  
  > There are at least 3 categories of items which strongly need this:
  >
  > 1. `persons` 
(https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search/haswbstatement:P31=Q5, as of now 
9.2M): in most cases the same label and the same aliases are repeated in 
different languages (e.g. in 
wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q19667413=history I can count 6 
same-label additions: fr, nl, sl, ca, ast, sq; many other items are similar)
  >   - in the case of people, 

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  @Epidosis  for that sample, it seems clear-cut, but for Q191118 
 one could imagine Cyrillic "т" as "mul" 
label.
  
  Interesting question about the fall-back chain from Lydia. Maybe we should 
give more thought about the language code applicable to taxon names. Its code 
could then be part of the fall-back chain and the value displayed when 
available.  There is some discussion on Wikidata 

 what the code should be. Let's assume it's "la-x-taxon". We could have 
languages fall back to that and it could easily be read.
  
  Personally, I rather see a feature that prevents re-additions for items with 
specific types (P31 =..) before we 
experiment with deletions. Maybe some sort of protection setting could work 
too. Sample: if there is mul-latn, there shouldn't be en,it,es, .. This would 
work for name items, but also disambiguation items, possible others.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  If mul is in Cyrillic (e.g. it will probably be in 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29652874), it will happen as follows in my 
opinion:
  
  - "mul" label = Афанасий
  - if a language code has no label, it will default to "Афанасий"
  - if a language code has a transliterated label (e.g. "en" label = Afanasy), 
for this language code one of the aliases is by default "Афанасий"
  
  This seems fine to me.
  
  Regarding deletions: of course there might be some misuses, but in fact I 
think that deleting a lot of duplicate data in labels (and aliases, in my 
opinion) is the reason for which "mul" is most useful, so in my opinion it is 
worth trying.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  @Epidosis What should happen when mul is in Cyrillic ? You seem to assume 
mul-latn.
  
  I'm somewhat worried that all these deletions will lead to the people adding 
"Giovanni"@it to "John"@en and we are back to where we were years ago.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  I think "the fallback to mul happens before the implicit fallback to en but 
after any explicit fallback" is preferrable (since I think Amphispiza bilineata 
is preferable to “Black-throated Sparrow”).
  
  Just one more point (probably already expressed): I think that
  
  - when "mul" has a certain X label, it should be technically impossible to 
add the same X label to any other language code
  - when a certain label X gets added to "mul", all identical X labels should 
be removed from other language codes

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  @Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE and I read through everything and spent some more 
time thinking this through. Thank you everyone for providing all the input, 
especially @Nikki. That really helped.
  One thing to still clarify or the discussion (which I also wasn't aware of): 
The language fallback chains do not have to make up a tidy tree. It can (and 
does in places) have cycles and a language can have several fallback languages. 
For example avk falls back to fr, es, ru;  mdf and myv fall back to one another 
(before both fall back to ru).
  
  Based on @Nikki's analysis it makes a lot of sense to us to only do mul for 
now and see how that goes. Then the remaining question is about the exact 
fallbacks we want. The options we see right now are:
  
  - the fallback to mul happens after the fallback to en at the very end of all 
fallback chains (example chain //de-at -> de -> en -> mul//)
  - the fallback to mul happens before the implicit fallback to en but after 
any explicit fallback (even explicit fallback to en from e.g en-gb) (example: 
//en-gb -> en  -> mul// or //de-at -> de -> mul -> en//)
  
  The question boils down to if for non-English languages, a fallback to e.g. 
//Amphispiza bilineata// is preferable to “Black-throated Sparrow” or not.
  
  Do you have thoughts on these options?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Interesting data, the question is what conclusions to draw from it for 
practical use cases at Wikidata.
  
  Initially the property "unit symbol" had string datatype, possibly because of 
a similar reasoning as the above. Latin script unit symbols were deemed useful 
for any language.
  
  After property proposal for what would be "unit symbol" (P5061) 

 this was changed to monolingual string as the units for languages written in 
Cyrillic don't use Latin script symbols. Essentially, we would have "t"@en for 
all Latin script languages and "т"@ru, "т"@uk (sample from Q191118 
).
  
  If "mul" will be "mul-latn", as other languages wont generally have a use 
"mul", the question is if "mul" should include non-Latin script text at all (or 
not).
  
  - If it does include non-Latin script text, it may include strings that are 
not useful for non Latin script languages
  - If it shouldn't include non-Latin script text, it's not clear what the use 
should be for languages that aren't written in Latin script if any. Also, it 
may be similar to the current use of "en".
  
  The conclusion for use cases above may be that we should create "mul-latn" 
only.
  
  Maybe some insight could be gained from languages where we currently have 
three codes, e.g. sr, sr-Latn, sr-Cyr where "sr" can contain either. I wonder 
how and where it's actually used.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  **//The following is a comment made in another forum regarding this ticket by 
User:Nikki,// ** who has allowed me to repost it here after some copy-editing 
in good faith:
  
  Regarding the fallback chain: English should fall back to mul too (as Mahir 
originally wrote), or otherwise we would have to duplicate everything from mul 
under English as well (and having everything **except** English fall back to 
mul has an icky "English is special" vibe).
  
  Regarding which script subtags to add: I think it would make sense to start 
with **only** mul and revisit whether (and which) script-specific codes would 
be useful later. I think there is a clear use case for a script-independent 
code which applies to any language (e.g. all the examples I provided are things 
which are by definition that string regardless of language—some use Latin 
characters but they're still valid for all languages, e.g. the ISO country code 
for Switzerland is still "CH" in Arabic or Russian, in the same way that the 
symbol for pi is π even in English) but it's less clear how useful individual 
script-specific codes would be.
  
  I did a bit of analysis and there are 521 language codes usable for labels. 
343 are for Latin, 55 for Cyrillic, 34 for Arabic, 16 for Devanagari, 10 for 
Traditional Chinese and 7 for Simplified Chinese. The other 36 scripts are 
associated with fewer than 5 language codes. 2/3 of all the the language codes 
are thus for Latin.
  
  Regarding mul-latn: I'm not sure what the point of having both mul and 
mul-latn would be. Doesn't that imply that there's a situation where mul would 
be different from mul-latn **and** that people would be specifically requesting 
mul and nothing else (since anything else would fall back to English and 
mul-latn first)?
  
  Regarding mul-cyrl and mul-arab: in theory there's enough language codes 
using those scripts that mul might make sense, but I looked up a bunch of 
leaders of countries which use Cyrillic or Arabic script (as items I thought 
would be likely to have pages in those languages) and the majority only had 3-5 
identical Cyrillic or Arabic labels, so I haven't yet found evidence that it's 
common for a lot of languages to share the same Cyrillic or Arabic label in 
practice.
  
  Regarding mul-deva: I didn't look into Devanagari, but I would be very 
surprised if the situation there is any different from mul-cyrl and mul-arab.
  
  Regarding mul-hans and mul-hant: I don't think there's any obvious benefit to 
having those. All of the Simplified/Traditional Chinese language codes are for 
languages in the zh macrolanguage. zh-classical and zh-yue shouldn't be used—a 
bot already replaces them with lzh and yue. zh, zh-cn, zh-my, zh-sg, gan-hans 
and wuu already fall back to zh-hans and gan, gan-hant, lzh, zh-hk, zh-mo and 
zh-tw already fall back to zh-hant. Only nan-hani and yue don't have any 
fallbacks defined…I don't know why yue doesn't, but nan-hani is a code added 
for Wikidata and **should** really fall back to nan or zh-hant. Either way, 
zh-hans/zh-hant are approximately equal to mul-hans/mul-hant and even if we 
define a distinction between them, I'm very sceptical that we could 
**maintain** a distinction.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 removed a subscriber: Esc3300.
Mahir256 added a comment.


  In T285156#7378750 , 
@Ash_Crow wrote:
  
  > Why? In absence of the proposed mul language code, having the same label 
duplicated in all languages that use it is the expected behaviour.
  
  The assumption with the original edits appears to have been that //all// 
languages used those three Latin-script text values when referring to the 
objects described by those items. My undoings to those examples are an attempt 
to dispel that assumption.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Ash_Crow]

Ash_Crow added a comment.


  In T285156#7247916 , 
@Mahir256 wrote:
  
  > While I've undone edits on the last three of Nikki's examples (since those 
examples are frankly quite ridiculous), I otherwise agree with what is stated 
in that comment.
  
  Why? In absence of the proposed mul language code, having the same label 
duplicated in all languages that use it is the expected behaviour.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher triaged this task as "High" priority.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  A reason we started adding identical labels to different languages for family 
name / given name items is to avoid that users try to translate the label, e.g. 
family name "Taylor"@en shouldn't have "Tailleur"@fr   "Schneider"@de. In 
languages with different scripts, transliterations are ok.
  
  For these items, if there is a constraint, it should definitely not suggest 
to add a different labels for these items.
  
  So if identical labels were to be deleted (or no longer added), there should 
be a feature to prevent (re-)addition of any label to the languages.
  
  A solution I proposed to this once was 
[[Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Names#New_datatype:_monostring_item|monostring_item]]
 (2015). Not sure how that could practically work out today though.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel removed a project: patch-welcome.
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  So langcom review isn't needed here? Ok.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Amire80]

Amire80 added a comment.


  In T285156#7324288 , 
@Esc3300 wrote:
  
  > For clarity's sake, maybe we should hold discussions about editorial 
choices on Wikidata directly. Also langcom members should stated that they are 
expressing the langcom view and reference the policy or procedure they are 
using to base their argument on. It may also be preferable if, when a user who 
is a langcom member, requests a new code, they don't express any langcom view 
on the code. Alternatively, it may seem that the process is somewhat random or 
arbitrary.
  >
  > At this stage, it seems clear that:
  >
  > - the request for the new code is complete with samples
  > - langcom is aware of the request and hasn't raised any concerns within the 
scope of their review activity
  
  To clarify, this is not Langcom approval. What I'm saying is that it's not 
relevant to the usual kind of thing that Langcom is doing. Precisely because of 
this, it's the product developers and designers that should review this and not 
Langcom. By any account, this is not a request for a //language//, but for a 
special case.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  For clarity's sake, maybe we should hold discussions about editorial choices 
on Wikidata directly. Also langcom members should stated that they are 
expressing the langcom view and reference the policy or procedure they are 
using to base their argument on. It may also be preferable if, when a user who 
is a langcom member, requests a new code, they don't express any langcom view 
on the code. Alternatively, it may seem that the process is somewhat random or 
arbitrary.
  
  At this stage, it seems clear that:
  
  - the request for the new code is complete with samples
  - langcom is aware of the request and hasn't raised any concerns within the 
scope of their review activity
  - there is a consensus on Wikidata to use new code
  
  If there are any technical points developers or product people want us to 
look into, please say so.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Good question about the fallback. Currently the fallback is to "en", so maybe 
the fallback for English (or French) should be:
  
  en > mul-latn > mul > en
  
  fr > mul-latn > mul > en
  
  Let's bear in mind that the language code on labels doesn't have the same 
function as on monolingual text and incubator.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Manuel]

Manuel updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Amire80]

Amire80 added a comment.


  My skepticism about this proposal is related not so much to my Language 
Committee membership, but my general understanding of how MediaWiki and 
Wikidata work. I really think that it should be solved by a dedicated and 
properly designed Wikibase or Wikidata //feature// and not by using a language 
code in a new way. Wikidata and Wikibase are built around the notion that some 
kinds of values can exist in different languages, and this proposal is trying 
to turn this notion on its head, and this may backfire.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[So9q]

So9q added a comment.


  I totally support finding a way to avoid this redundancy. It's a terrible 
waste of resources and time to input it for all languages in the 
world/supported by the system, and does not add knowledge to the whole at all.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  There are at least 3 categories of items which strongly need this:
  
  1. `persons` 
(https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Search/haswbstatement:P31=Q5, as of now 
9.2M): in most cases the same label and the same aliases are repeated in 
different languages (e.g. in 
wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q19667413=history I can count 6 
same-label additions: fr, nl, sl, ca, ast, sq; many other items are similar)
- in the case of people, 

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  In T285156#7316247 , 
@Shushugah wrote:
  
  > [I]f someone wanted to add the "same" label value on a different language, 
should that trigger a validation error? I can imagine that would potentially 
disrupt bots who copy labels, but maybe that's not a bad thing if the goal is 
cleanup.
  
  Yes, one of the goals is item cleanup, so such an error should be triggered.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Shushugah]

Shushugah added a comment.


  This sounds like it has many positives and not so many cons. If someone wants 
to add a different label that existing behaviour is preserved. One question I 
have is, if someone wanted to add the "same" label value on a different 
language, should that trigger a validation error? I can imagine that would 
potentially disrupt bots who copy labels, but maybe that's not a bad thing if 
the goal is cleanup.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  In T285156#7314227 , 
@Amire80 wrote:
  
  > So, `mul` is kind of the right code for that in general, but it's still a 
special case, and I'm wondering whether it's right to use it as //usual// 
aliases and labels. Can't it be a kind of an extra field in the data model, or 
a property, like "multilingual name" or "universal name"? Using just a language 
code for this sounds like a bit of a hack that can backfire.
  
  I'd be interested to learn of a situation in which the addition of a label in 
this code with the intent described //would// cause things to backfire.
  
  > Are any of these actually useful?
  
  This task is not intended to answer this question; since someone has found it 
useful to have access to this specific string in every language, using 'mul' is 
a more efficient way to address that.
  
  > Wikipedia disambiguation pages are handled very badly in general on 
Wikidata. It requires real structure and not a language code hack.
  
  Can you elaborate of what's not "real" about the mul code with respect to 
disambiguation pages? While I'm sure there's much to improve for that category 
of item, that's not necessarily an argument against the introduction of this 
code for other purposes demonstrated.
  
  > This sounds like the right behavior. What if in some language the label was 
different? Asking seriously.
  
  If the label in some other language is different from the "mul" one, then 
there's absolutely no harm for another language to add a different label. With 
respect to astronomical objects, on the typical multi-labeled item, only the 
Bengali label (and the Malayalam one, if it exists) is different from the rest, 
and thus would be preserved in the presence of a "mul" code; all others, being 
identical to that of the "mul" code, would be eliminated. (Again, if later one 
of those languages needs a different label from that of the 'mul' code, it is 
free to add that //different// label, and //not// the same one.)
  
  > As with the galaxy, it doesn't look wrong.
  
  See the argument re: galaxies.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Amire80]

Amire80 added a comment.


  In T285156#7247315 , 
@Nikki wrote:
  
  > In T285156#7163446 , 
@Amire80 wrote:
  >
  >> I don't understand what is this for.
  >
  > It would be useful for things like codes, symbols and international names, 
where the same string is a plausible label/alias for every language. Copying 
the same thing to most/all languages creates massive amounts of edits and is a 
huge waste of resources, but we don't have a language-neutral place we can add 
them instead. We would have to use English.
  
  So, `mul` is kind of the right code for that in general, but it's still a 
special case, and I'm wondering whether it's right to use it as //usual// 
aliases and labels. Can't it be a kind of an extra field in the data model, or 
a property, like "multilingual name" or "universal name"? Using just a language 
code for this sounds like a bit of a hack that can backfire.
  
  > Examples:
  >
  > - Unicode character "♣"  - has "♣" 
as the label and "U+2663" as an alias 446 times
  > - Switzerland  - has "CH" as an alias 
403 times
  > - carbon  - has "C" as an alias 187 
times
  
  
  
  > - the disambiguation page "C"  - has 
"C" as the label 104 times
  > - the Danish men's national road cycling team 2021 
 - has "DEN 2021" as an alias 411 
times
  > - the galaxy "SDSS J151017.36+160605.3" 
 - has "SDSS J151017.36+160605.3" as 
the label 411 times
  > - the species "Neotrogla curvata"  
- has "Neotrogla curvata" as the label 411 times

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a project: patch-welcome.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  Given some of the samples, I suppose we should have both, "mul" and 

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 changed the task status from "Stalled" to "Open".

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  While I've undone edits on the last three of Nikki's examples (since those 
examples are frankly quite ridiculous), I otherwise agree with what is stated 
in that comment.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Nikki]

Nikki added a comment.


  In T285156#7163446 , 
@Amire80 wrote:
  
  > I don't understand what is this for.
  
  It would be useful for things like codes, symbols and international names, 
where the same string is a plausible label/alias for every language. Copying 
the same thing to most/all languages creates massive amounts of edits and is a 
huge waste of resources, but we don't have a language-neutral place we can add 
them instead. We would have to use English.
  
  Examples:
  
  - Unicode character "♣"  - has "♣" 
as the label and "U+2663" as an alias 446 times
  - Switzerland  - has "CH" as an alias 403 
times
  - carbon  - has "C" as an alias 187 times
  - the disambiguation page "C"  - has 
"C" as the label 104 times
  - the Danish men's national road cycling team 2021 
 - has "DEN 2021" as an alias 411 
times
  - the galaxy "SDSS J151017.36+160605.3" 
 - has "SDSS J151017.36+160605.3" as 
the label 411 times
  - the species "Neotrogla curvata"  - 
has "Neotrogla curvata" as the label 411 times

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Amire80]

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  I think 

[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Amire80]

Amire80 added a comment.


  I don't understand what is this for.

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QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Nikki, 
Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Mbch331]

Mbch331 added subscribers: Amire80, jhsoby, Mbch331.
Mbch331 added a comment.


  @jhsoby @Amire80: What do you say?

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

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To: Mbch331
Cc: Mbch331, jhsoby, Amire80, Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Mahir256, Aklapper, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Nikki, 
Wikidata-bugs, aude
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285156: Add termbox language code mul

[Maintenance_bot]

Maintenance_bot added a project: Wikidata.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T285156

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: Maintenance_bot
Cc: Lydia_Pintscher, ChristianKl, Mahir256, Aklapper, Invadibot, maantietaja, 
Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, 
_jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Nikki, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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