Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason
* Sydney Poore wrote: It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing community members through regular channels is not creating content free of systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of for several years now.) Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and organizations. Proposed projects with a good chance to measurably shrink the gender gap are not being denied adequate funding as far as I can tell. Without actual resource shortages concerning the gender gap topic with respect to grants, be that money or staff time for proposal reviews, what we have here is a solution looking for a problem. We would have a different kind of discussion if we were talking about there is a huge backlog of great gender gap projects in need of funding, but you don't say that it is evident in the *rejection* of requests, you say that's evident in the requests themself. Earlier Siko Bouterse wrote the same, these kinds of projects haven’t emerged organically at any meaningful scale. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015) · http://www.websitedev.de/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason
When I first heard about the idea - I was timid and concerned. However, after reading the responses - I am not sure that everyone is looking at this the right way. My concerns have been addressed, largely by the commitment to accept time-sensitive requests and the description of the idea. It has become increasingly common for grant organizations to encourage applicants to focus their programs on target areas - sometimes that requirement applies to the enter year. However, that generally does not mean you cannot submit your usual programs and ideas - it just challenges you to expand them in a particular focus area. Given the focus on gender gap work in the tech sector, starting with that during a trial run seems logical. It seems to me that this would be a good excuse for events like WLM, Wiki Loves Pride, Wikimedia Conference, and others possibly planning during those months to consider how to increase the focus on the gender gap. Promoting themes that encourage articles about women (we already know there are huge gaps in a lot of professions), Pride could give prizes to great articles about lesbian pioneers, or WLM could promote photos of female inspired or involved architectural projects. With the possible exception of things like specific tech development projects, I think most outreach projects could be challenged to find a way to include addressing the gender gap into their plans for work that would be funded during those months. I'm not sure that this threatens gender gap projects after that period, or threatens projects that are not traditionally seen as gender gap focused. If it does, then we will know it didn't work. But I would encourage folks to think of this as a challenge on how they can help include addressing gender gap in their programming rather than viewing it as an obstacle to funding. Plus, it sounds like the underlying message remains what it always is - if you have an idea and are concerned about the timelines - contact the grantmaking staff or volunteers to talk it through. -greg aka varnent On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.com wrote: Values. It is a matter of values. If you believe, as I do, that lack of diversity of Wikimedia projects is seriously compromising the content of the projects then designing a campaign that addresses one or more aspects of this concern is a reasonable top priority even if it displaces other interests/values. It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing community members through regular channels is not creating content free of systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of for several years now.) Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and organizations. (Of course there are other wikimedians who also share my passion. I greatly appreciate your work!) My inspiration for continuing to do volunteer work for the wikimedia movement has largely come from the people inside the parent WMF and the WMF Board. Despite the constant criticism from the community, I find the folks employed at the WMF to be hard core believers in the Wikimedia movement and share my value of increasing the diversity of the community and content, and working to eliminate systemic bias in content. So it is not surprising to me that there is disconnect between the community and the WMF staff and Board around supporting current volunteers and recruiting a more diverse community. I appreciate the WMF grant team for doing this type of experimentation, and encourage other WMF affiliated organizations (chapters, thematic organization, and user groups) to not be timid in addressing all types of diversity and systemic bias by narrowing their focus in order to get the best results. I sincerely apologize if some people reading my comment feel under appreciated and become dispirited. But creating a diverse wikimedia movement in order to eliminate entrenched systemic bias is a stronger value for me. I hope that hearing from someone like myself who is inspired by the experiment will change the minds of some people. But even if that doesn't happen it is important to me to speak out in support of the Inspire Gender Gap campaign and the staff volunteers who share my vision of collecting and disseminating free content to everyone in the world. Warm regards to all people everywhere in the wikimedia movement! Sydney Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration On Sat,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason
Values. It is a matter of values. If you believe, as I do, that lack of diversity of Wikimedia projects is seriously compromising the content of the projects then designing a campaign that addresses one or more aspects of this concern is a reasonable top priority even if it displaces other interests/values. It has become pretty obvious that funding the interests/values of existing community members through regular channels is not creating content free of systemic bias in general nor closing the human gender gap. (I say this as someone who has read all types of WMF funding proposals and evaluations of for several years now.) Temporarily doing a 3 month targeted Gender Gap experimental campaign is a modest approach to take in addressing one of the biggest weaknesses of Wikimedia Foundation projects. The reaction of some members of the community was predictable, because it is evident in the majority of previous and current funding requests that increasing the diversity of the larger Wikimedia movement is secondary priority of most existing people and organizations. (Of course there are other wikimedians who also share my passion. I greatly appreciate your work!) My inspiration for continuing to do volunteer work for the wikimedia movement has largely come from the people inside the parent WMF and the WMF Board. Despite the constant criticism from the community, I find the folks employed at the WMF to be hard core believers in the Wikimedia movement and share my value of increasing the diversity of the community and content, and working to eliminate systemic bias in content. So it is not surprising to me that there is disconnect between the community and the WMF staff and Board around supporting current volunteers and recruiting a more diverse community. I appreciate the WMF grant team for doing this type of experimentation, and encourage other WMF affiliated organizations (chapters, thematic organization, and user groups) to not be timid in addressing all types of diversity and systemic bias by narrowing their focus in order to get the best results. I sincerely apologize if some people reading my comment feel under appreciated and become dispirited. But creating a diverse wikimedia movement in order to eliminate entrenched systemic bias is a stronger value for me. I hope that hearing from someone like myself who is inspired by the experiment will change the minds of some people. But even if that doesn't happen it is important to me to speak out in support of the Inspire Gender Gap campaign and the staff volunteers who share my vision of collecting and disseminating free content to everyone in the world. Warm regards to all people everywhere in the wikimedia movement! Sydney Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Some disturbing news entered my mailbox the past days. The grant making team is going to shut down the grantmaking process for Project and Event Grants (PEG) and Individual Engagement Grants (IEG) for three full months! They have decided that they want to focus only on a specific strategic priority: the gender gap, and that all other good projects are refused for 3 months (February-April). Having more attention to a strategic priority is fine to me. Having more attention to the problem of the gender gap, sounds good to me as such, we can use much more projects and content in those areas. But that does not mean that many many volunteers who are organizing other projects should become the victim of other projects. This is a negative signal to all those volunteers who are currently working on project plans to be submitted in February, March and April. Good projects to be ignored, just because the WMF think those are less important. They say this is a positive campaign, but this sounds as a negative campaign to me. This discourages many volunteers in doing projects. And even worse: this is only to be generally announced 2 weeks before that period of shutting down starts! (this sounds like a joke, sadly it isn't) To organize a good project volunteers (yes, we are still unpaid! and organize these projects in our spare time!) we need the time to communicate well with all our partners and sponsors, and need the time to come up with a good project plan with a stable basis. Rushing a project in just a couple of weeks time is very unpleasant and does not help in getting a good quality project. And announcing it two weeks before the period indicates that organizers aren't taken seriously (enough). For example, we are currently planning to organize Wiki Loves Monuments in 2015 again, the world wide contest to have a better documentation and better display of all the cultural monuments worldwide, recognised as largest photo contest in the world by Guinness World Records. We are currently working on forming a team and want to have a good
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Where is anyone whining about this? Nobody here is. The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted. So, to summarise: Please, let's stop complaining on the basis that this excludes men Where is anyone doing that? We're complaining on the basis that this excludes men. On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote: Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Hoi, The only point for this experiment is that there is not enough bandwidth to cope with all the requests for funding as it is. The idea is that by concentrating on one area it is possible to do more. The argument against is that it is highly demotivating for everyone that finds its request for funding on hold. In addition, there is no continuity for a subject once its period of attention is over and another subjects gets the treatment. Thanks, GerardM On 8 January 2015 at 18:03, Oliver Keyes ironho...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Where is anyone whining about this? Nobody here is. The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted. So, to summarise: Please, let's stop complaining on the basis that this excludes men Where is anyone doing that? We're complaining on the basis that this excludes men. On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote: Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Tilman Bayer joins Product Strategy Department
Indeed, although as I understand it he's going to be independent of the actual Research Data team. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Erik Moeller, 07/01/2015 20:36: It’s my pleasure to announce that Tilman Bayer is joining the Foundation’s Product Strategy department as Senior Analyst. I would like to thank Katherine Maher for supporting and helping to prepare this move from the Communications department. Thanks. If I understand correctly and this means we'll see more Tilman in research-y stuff, without reducing WMF transparency, it's great! I have a number of questions though, see * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special: Contributionsdir=prevoffset=20150108212736limit=3target=Nemo+bis * http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/75430/focus=76554 Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is there some Wikimedia project to host contents based on original research?
Wikibooks. 2015-01-06 11:02 GMT-07:00 Castelo Branco michelcastelobra...@gmail.com: +1 Ting Chen Original research in a wiki way = Wikiversity Original report (for recent events) and interviews = Wikinews Regards, Michel Castelo Branco 2015-01-05 12:07 GMT-02:00 Ting Chen wing.phil...@gmx.de: Hello Sucheta, for me this looks like a good restart for Wikiversity. For me beside of providing university courses one of the target of Wikiversity is also always to be actually do crowd sourced research works. Best regards Ting Am 01/05/2015 um 02:30 PM schrieb Sucheta Ghoshal: Hi all, A few of my friends and I have been planning to document the history of counterculture in Bengali art and literature. These friends are also working in that domain professionally, and have access to a huge repository of texts, images, and other relevant details that they are willing to make available digitally in the form of free contents. We wish to have the contents as wikis, and, pictures and video snippets that might be involved - as properly licensed free materials. Now, the concern is if there is some Wikimedia Project that would host contents that are based on such an enormous amount of original research. Wikipedia is certainly not the appropriate place. And, as there exist no earlier works on this particular domain on the internet, references would be negligible. I was thinking about Wikibooks, instead. I am not entirely sure if that fits either, but I assume it fits better than Wikipedia, at least. The last option is to host it ourselves with the MediaWiki setup, and I am considering it very much. But, the idea essentially is to make people edit and enrich it with as much inputs as possible. It would be really helpful, in that case, if it could be placed in one of the Wikimedia projects. Suggestions, of every kind, would be deeply appreciated. Best, Sucheta ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update regarding WMF's reporting practices
Given https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2015-January/076324.html, some questions. Erik Moeller, 06/11/2014 07:57: Format: Effective immediately, we are shifting to a quarterly reporting format. This will impact our reporting, and the October through December https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Report,_September_2014 is still missing. Who's going to compile it? As above, the deadline for publication of the first report, covering October 1 - December 31, is February 15. Is this confirmed? For this first report, we are being conservative with regard to the deadline, as we will have our resources directed at our staff all-hands and developer summit in January. Tilman and I will begin creating a draft structure for this new report in coming weeks, and will do so in public from the get-go. Did this happen? If not, will Tilman still help draft this structure? We will also rethink the “Wikimedia Highlights” alongside other multilingual movements news formats, likely detaching them from reporting functions. Out of scope of this effort for now: - Providing more timely updates on initiatives with high user impact. We’re continuing to provide updates to Tech News [2] and similar newsletters, but we’re not currently doing a major overhaul here. Is https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-October/074889.html still accurate in that Guillaume continues tech reports for now? Nemo [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Dashboard ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Tilman Bayer joins Product Strategy Department
Erik Moeller, 07/01/2015 20:36: It’s my pleasure to announce that Tilman Bayer is joining the Foundation’s Product Strategy department as Senior Analyst. I would like to thank Katherine Maher for supporting and helping to prepare this move from the Communications department. Thanks. If I understand correctly and this means we'll see more Tilman in research-y stuff, without reducing WMF transparency, it's great! I have a number of questions though, see * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributionsdir=prevoffset=20150108212736limit=3target=Nemo+bis * http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/75430/focus=76554 Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] VisualEditor office hour for February
Hi everybody, and apologies for cross-posting. I'd like to announce that the next office hour for VisualEditor is in February, Thursday 19th at 1900 UTC [0]. James Forrester will be available to answer any questions about recent improvements and to provide details about ongoing and planned work. It is also a pleasant occasion to share your experience; the team always looks forward to hearing from you. Previous logs and other information, including how to participate, can be found at Meta [1]. Hope to see you in #wikimedia-office then. Best, Elitre (WMF) https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Community_Engagement_(Product) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Newsletter [0] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=19min=00sec=0day=19month=02year=2015 [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Hoi, Given that a frequent complaint is the male chauvinist piggery that is alive and well and meets not much sanction, this behaviour it being given as one of the main reasons why so many people leave. I do suggest that the hand above the head holding attitude of culprits is why we do so poorly. As this is not acknowledged enough, it is not on the radar of people who are not as flawed as some. Thanks, GerardM On 8 January 2015 at 11:25, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: I partially disagree with this vision. Without the North American and European men there would not be any opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge. Probably Wikimedia would not exist. It is correct to say that Wikimedia must offer to *all people* any opportunity without any difference of culture or gender or religion and probably to promote some disadvantaged potential contributors, but without forgetting that what Wikimedia is now is due to these neglected white men. I agree with your sentence: In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions but we must be clear that the diversity of contribution and of opinions is not automatically connected with the race or with the gender. The neutral point of view has been assured until now, I would not read in your sentence that this is wrong. There may be men or women gathered in a key decision committee but having the same not neutral point of view because the gender doesn't assure automatically the neutrality of point of view. The risk I see in the association of diversity with the gender or with the race is that we can say that having people from different countries or different races or different sex it can assure the neutral point of view. But that is wrong. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people doing that are white North American and European men with (or working towards) masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their own backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives will be missing from those judgements. That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build and share the sum of human knowledge. In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However, they are likely to miss important things in doing so. Regards, Chris * This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:53:47 +0530 Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Need I say anything else? I think you've hit the nail on the head. It should not be easier to dominate a player-killing MUD than to edit an article on Wikipedia. In other words, one should not need to adopt the persona of a snarling dog to successfully edit. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Thank you for this thoughtful response. In the United States, at least, girls routinely test higher than boys on verbal skills and have recently surpassed young men in attaining higher education in nearly all fields. There is a lot of dead time in the lives of many women. They are all over Facebook. Routine child care and housework give ample opportunity to research and edit as do many jobs. Objective factors which might limit editing are minimal. Fred On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:47:22 +0100 Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: I think that the realistic point of view should be another. There is a potential number of people who can be contributors (contributors and not readers) but this potential number must be *realistic*. Anyway these persons should have something to contribute to wikimedia projects an basically: a) ability to write (so a sufficient capacity to be active users and not passive, it means a valid education and knowledge) b) connection to the network (in order to have a continuous contribution to the projects) c) time to spent (volunteers must have time... a woman with children probably will dedicate her free time to the family) So there is a digital divide and a gender gap and so on but probably the barriers cannot be solved within Wikimedia. For this reason I don't think that half the humans could contribute. There are barriers (education, digital divide, freetime, etc.) that can only be partially solved by Wikimedia. Please don't do the same simpler association number of speakers = potential number of contributors because that strategy will be *surely* wrong. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:56 AM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not. Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:25:23 +0100 Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: I partially disagree with this vision. Without the North American and European men there would not be any opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge. Probably Wikimedia would not exist. True, but our goal was to make knowledge and the opportunity to contribute to making knowledge available to everyone. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or participation are counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; anyone should be able to edit without struggle. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 12:09 PM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or participation are counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; anyone should be able to edit without struggle. I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at here, but Liam's point was that it was somewhere between unhelpful and downright harmful to have discussions about the Wikimedia gender gap conducted entirely between men. (It's a bit like having a discussion about Wikipedia conducted entirely by people who've never used the internet.) I would describe this as common sense rather than radical feminism. Chris ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I have one simple question: if the Grants program was to focus on some other key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having this discussion about how horrible it is to waste time this way? Would we see throwing up of hands in this way if the focus was, say, requests from the Global South? A focus on getting great bots built and working across wikis? A focus on events and processes for media collection? (Incidentally the latter more or less happens anyway with several groups applying for funding for WLM within a narrow period...) Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women. I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases. Risker/Anne On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched. People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training. All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects. That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Unlike the published, single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to contribute to it. Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable. They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. If one feels moved to contribute, they do. If not, they don't. It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often. But it's up to them. Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from than them. Identity politics is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character. In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person. Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base. I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives. He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity. (He was not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). I also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with binary switches and punch cards. Her contributions were what was important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her professional achievements go. If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have made modern nursing what it is. Of course there have been and will be male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing. And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: White House response to Aaron Swartz petition
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: For those unfamiliar with American political history in its brief existence, this is entirely expected. The power over who has the right to hire and fire whom has been the center of our politics since near inception[1] as well as crucial points in national development[2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson And, of course, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowsher_v._Synar (so don't bother writing your Congressman). Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Yes. Finally, a voice of reason. On 8 January 2015 at 08:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched. People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training. All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects. That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Unlike the published, single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to contribute to it. Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable. They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. If one feels moved to contribute, they do. If not, they don't. It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often. But it's up to them. Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from than them. Identity politics is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character. In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person. Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base. I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives. He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity. (He was not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). I also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with binary switches and punch cards. Her contributions were what was important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her professional achievements go. If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have made modern nursing what it is. Of course there have been and will be male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing. And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing? If so, it'd be news to me and many others. But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about it? Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively lucrative job of refuse collection? Or, the likewise lucrative jobs of plumber, ordnance disposal engineer, nuclear materials technician, etc.? No. But other fields that are a lot less dirty and/or dangerous, yes. (Think professional STEM fields.) This isn't by accident, nor is the fact that the nursing profession with its high salaries (for RNs, anyway) is in no hurry to recruit men simply because they're men. But why should they? That one receives care from a female vs. male nurse isn't relevant. To trumpet a need for men in nursing minimizes the
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not. Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Warning: Wikimedia-l Google Group
Yes. As stated in my original messages, you can (and should) use the report link at the bottom of the subscription e-mail. Austin On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Nurunnaby Hasive nhas...@wikimedia.org.bd wrote: +1 Karthik. Better to report the group. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Karthik Nadar karthik...@wikimedia.in wrote: I think it will be better if most of us can Report the Group. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched. People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training. All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects. That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Unlike the published, single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to contribute to it. Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable. They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. If one feels moved to contribute, they do. If not, they don't. It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often. But it's up to them. Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from than them. Identity politics is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character. In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person. Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base. I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives. He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity. (He was not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). I also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with binary switches and punch cards. Her contributions were what was important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her professional achievements go. If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have made modern nursing what it is. Of course there have been and will be male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing. And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing? If so, it'd be news to me and many others. But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about it? Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively lucrative job of refuse collection? Or, the likewise lucrative jobs of plumber, ordnance disposal engineer, nuclear materials technician, etc.? No. But other fields that are a lot less dirty and/or dangerous, yes. (Think professional STEM fields.) This isn't by accident, nor is the fact that the nursing profession with its high salaries (for RNs, anyway) is in no hurry to recruit men simply because they're men. But why should they? That one receives care from a female vs. male nurse isn't relevant. To trumpet a need for men in nursing minimizes the huge contributions of women nurses and is a patently false proposition. Nursing needs competent,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Need I say anything else? On 08-Jan-2015 2:45 pm, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not. Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: White House response to Aaron Swartz petition
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: As to the specific personnel-related requests raised in your petitions, our response must be limited. Consistent with the terms we laid out when we began We the People, we will not address agency personnel matters in a petition response, because we do not believe this is the appropriate forum in which to do so. For those unfamiliar with American political history in its brief existence, this is entirely expected. The power over who has the right to hire and fire whom has been the center of our politics since near inception[1] as well as crucial points in national development[2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson -- ~Keegan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address is in a personal capacity. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I think that the realistic point of view should be another. There is a potential number of people who can be contributors (contributors and not readers) but this potential number must be *realistic*. Anyway these persons should have something to contribute to wikimedia projects an basically: a) ability to write (so a sufficient capacity to be active users and not passive, it means a valid education and knowledge) b) connection to the network (in order to have a continuous contribution to the projects) c) time to spent (volunteers must have time... a woman with children probably will dedicate her free time to the family) So there is a digital divide and a gender gap and so on but probably the barriers cannot be solved within Wikimedia. For this reason I don't think that half the humans could contribute. There are barriers (education, digital divide, freetime, etc.) that can only be partially solved by Wikimedia. Please don't do the same simpler association number of speakers = potential number of contributors because that strategy will be *surely* wrong. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:56 AM, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. That's the point; it would not matter if women contributed so long as it's relevant and factual. Half the humans that could contribute are not. Actually many more than half, as there are barriers other than gender. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Hi Matt, as thorough as your characterization of the issue at hand is, as misguided it is as well. The main point of the gender debate isn't the physical differences between men and women and some purported difference in authorship flowing from that. That would rightfully be considered absurd and thus isn't really seriously promoted by anyone. The gender gap debate is rather an acknowledgment that only a surprisingly small subset of half the population contribute to Wikipedia - and the systemic bias that stems from that. In fact, it seems rather obvious that an encyclopedia that aspires to represent all of human knowledge must necessarily be written by a representative subset of humanity - or at least a representative subset of the scientific community. We, so far, spectactularly fail at that with respect to gender but also geography, language, and professional backgrounds and expertise. As a result, it's more than sensible to try to address that with the gender gap as the most prominent failure. I also find your argument that focusing on increasing female participation is devaluing the contribution of the prevalent majority highly dubious. It's unfortunately a rather unoriginal argument as it has been used many many times before in the political arean to combat initiatives aimed at increasing diversity and decreasing discrimination. The incessant fault of the argument is the premise that the value of a particular contribution is dependent on the value of all other contributions rather than viewing it in its own right. To give an example: when someone writes an outstanding article on the Great Wall of China and someone else writes an outstanding article on Jacques Chirac, the value of each of these contributions is completely separate from one another as well as from the fact whether one of the authors was recruited through a drive to increase female participation. They've both made excellent additions to Wikipedia and should be lauded for that. Making moves to increase female participation does not in any way devalue male participation. While I have no knowledge whether this focused approach to grant-making will indeed lead to increased female participation, I find it sensible to at least try it out. We'll see in the end whether it was succesful. Best regards, Sebastian Moleski Schatzmeister / Treasurer - Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin Telefon 030 - 219 158 26-0 www.wikimedia.de Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/ Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I partially disagree with this vision. Without the North American and European men there would not be any opportunity to say: we would share the sum of the human knowledge. Probably Wikimedia would not exist. It is correct to say that Wikimedia must offer to *all people* any opportunity without any difference of culture or gender or religion and probably to promote some disadvantaged potential contributors, but without forgetting that what Wikimedia is now is due to these neglected white men. I agree with your sentence: In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions but we must be clear that the diversity of contribution and of opinions is not automatically connected with the race or with the gender. The neutral point of view has been assured until now, I would not read in your sentence that this is wrong. There may be men or women gathered in a key decision committee but having the same not neutral point of view because the gender doesn't assure automatically the neutrality of point of view. The risk I see in the association of diversity with the gender or with the race is that we can say that having people from different countries or different races or different sex it can assure the neutral point of view. But that is wrong. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people doing that are white North American and European men with (or working towards) masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their own backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives will be missing from those judgements. That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build and share the sum of human knowledge. In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However, they are likely to miss important things in doing so. Regards, Chris * This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Is there any barrier for women to participate? The discussion is open. It would be worth if someone attacks a woman for her opinion. There is more a big barrier in the participation to this thread connected with a strong level of English to be required to read and to answer to this thread. I see more a cultural and linguistic gap that a gender gap. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I agree. Women vs Men has never really stood out as a point of debate before and ideally shouldn't. On 08-Jan-2015 4:11 pm, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: Is there any barrier for women to participate? The discussion is open. It would be worth if someone attacks a woman for her opinion. There is more a big barrier in the participation to this thread connected with a strong level of English to be required to read and to answer to this thread. I see more a cultural and linguistic gap that a gender gap. Regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Hi there, That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Who is to decide what is relevant and factual (or indeed, the other editorial judgements we make in writing aricles)? If the only people doing that are white North American and European men with (or working towards) masters' degrees*, then their judgements will inevitably reflect their own backgrounds and perspectives - and other backgrounds and perspectives will be missing from those judgements. That does not and will not result in us fulfilling our mission to build and share the sum of human knowledge. In my view our consensus-based decision-making model can only work well when there is enough diversity of contributions in the first place. It is easy for a small group of similar people to reach a consensus. However, they are likely to miss important things in doing so. Regards, Chris * This isn't (quite) a description of the status quo but is pretty close ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On 8 January 2015 at 07:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have made modern nursing what it is. Of course there have been and will be male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing. And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing? In fact nurses get paid less than the male national average wage. This is clearly some definition of high salaries I wasn't previously familiar with If so, it'd be news to me and many others. But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about it? Reducing the recruitment pool is less than ideal. However the number of men training to be nurses has been increasing so it is probably felt the problem will solve itself. Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively lucrative job of refuse collection? Ah you can tell the piece you are recycling from is dated. Post privatisation refuse collection has ceased to be a particularly lucrative job. Or, the likewise lucrative jobs of plumber, http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/call-more-women-construction-3m-6942911 Although again due to eastern European labour plumbing isn't as lucrative as it used to be. ordnance disposal engineer, I understand there have been various attempts to recruit women into the military nuclear materials technician, etc.? No. But other fields that are a lot less dirty and/or dangerous, yes. Were you under the impression that nuclear materials technician was dirty and/or dangerous? For very obvious reasons it isn't. However the nuclear industry has been downsizing of late so I don't think there are significant programs to recruit anyone. (Think professional STEM fields.) I'm a chemist you insensitive clod. Depending on what you are doing it can be dirty or dangerous. -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first year undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the diversity and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are underrepresented or missing entirely. And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our projects. The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe and North America. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase the participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is getting shoved aside. I dont see this as sexism and playing that card is counter-productive. What I suggest is that instead of saying that for three months everyone else is sidelined, focus on inclusion. If there arent enough or good enough projects for addressing the number of women participating in Wikipedia, perhaps we should look into why. Perhaps also look into the Foundation directly reaching out to women's groups for collaborative purposes. But the OP does have a point. By telling certain groups we are not interested in you right now you are playing an us-against-them game and quite probably causing more harm than good. Leigh Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:03:40 -0500 From: nawr...@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first year undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the diversity and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are underrepresented or missing entirely. And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our projects. The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe and North America. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
Romaine Wiki, 08/01/2015 18:12: Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Doctorate in what discipline? Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is not connected to a discipline. See http://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/web/Main1/SiteWide/SiteWide11/MaastrichtUniversityAwardsHonoraryDoctoratesToFransTimmermansAndWikipediaFounderJimmyWales.htm for a bit more details - he was nominated by the student members of the University Council. Best, Lodewijk 2015-01-08 19:05 GMT+01:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com: Romaine Wiki, 08/01/2015 18:12: Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Doctorate in what discipline? Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New project idea: WikiTribute
Matt, I think people politely declined to criticize your proposal in the knowledge that it was absolutely sure to fail, meaning vocal opposition was not required. But I can understand your frustration at the lack of response, so I'll briefly provide you with mine. The WikiTribute idea firstly fails to meld with educational purpose of the sum of all human knowledge mission. Secondly, the system you describe for managing it is utterly unworkable in a non-profit, volunteer driven wiki setting. Finally, online repositories for obituaries already exist. These are by no means the only weaknesses of the WikiTribute idea, but they would seem to be fatal. On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:14 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi all, Please take a minute to review a new project idea the page for which I created just today at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiTribute I am interested in feedback, suggestions, etc. Thank you! Matt ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap
Hi Peter, Much of my editing has been without logging into Wikipedia. Typically I don't create new pages but I have a couple times. For example, I started a page for a college that closed in 1981 after finding to my surprise that no one had done so despite it being a beloved place for its alums. I did likewise for a deceased former state chief justice, as 2 examples. But I didn't sign in to do so. I've made numerous other edits to add info such as info about a person's recent demise, further contributions to a field, etc. But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the WikiGods have my uid on an alert trigger now. :) Matt Original message Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:12:39 +0200 From: Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision Message-ID: 005c01d02b3c$65e76500$31b62f00$@telkomsa.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Matt, How much actual editing of Wikipedia have you done? I have looked for some indication in your rather lengthy message, but could not find any. Perhaps I have simply missed it, but maybe you just didn’t mention, thinking that it is not relevant to the point. Nevertheless, I would be interested to know, as it would be an indication of your exposure to the editing environment. For the same reason, I would like to know which Wikipedia(s) you have edited, they are not all the same. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of mcc99 Sent: 08 January 2015 09:07 AM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people people in ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Did someone suggest that men should reduce editing or participation? I missed that. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of FRED BAUDER Sent: 08 January 2015 02:10 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Liam Wyatt Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:29:57 +0100 Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As this thread demonstrates, what discussions about the massive gender imbalance in Wikimedia editorship need is more men discussing why it might or might not be important. /sarcasm Radical feminist notions that men should reduce editing or participation are counter-productive. The solution is OR not NOT; anyone should be able to edit without struggle. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Leigh Thelmadatter osama...@hotmail.com wrote: I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase the participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is getting shoved aside. I don't see how you can come to this conclusion. His entire e-mail is explaining why no effort should be expended on the gender gap. It seems as if the grant initiative is simply the proximate motive for explaining why the gender gap is not a problem and working to address it is harmful and insulting. I did not describe that position as sexist, and I couldn't confidently assert that it is. It is, however, ignorant. Perhaps the grants teams could have gone about this initiative in a better way - that is usually the case when it comes to WMF communication and organization. They could have set aside a specific dollar amount, or some proportion of grants over a period of time. But three months is a short period, and I find the sense of entitlement to WMF funds reflected in some comments to be troubling. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
How is it possible to give a realistic answer to that question? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: 08 January 2015 02:42 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision I have one simple question: if the Grants program was to focus on some other key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having this discussion about how horrible it is to waste time this way? Would we see throwing up of hands in this way if the focus was, say, requests from the Global South? A focus on getting great bots built and working across wikis? A focus on events and processes for media collection? (Incidentally the latter more or less happens anyway with several groups applying for funding for WLM within a narrow period...) Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women. I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases. Risker/Anne On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched. People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training. All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects. That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Unlike the published, single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to contribute to it. Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable. They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. If one feels moved to contribute, they do. If not, they don't. It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often. But it's up to them. Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from than them. Identity politics is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character. In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person. Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base. I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives. He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity. (He was not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). I also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN) wad female, only that she wrote the first computer language compiler so programmers of lesser brain power than her (such as myself) could go on to program computers without struggling with binary switches and punch cards. Her contributions were what was important, not her gender, skin color, or anything else as far as her professional achievements go. If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
+1 to Keilana. The fact that people still believe that valuing women somehow devalues men never fails to amaze me. It's not a zero-sum game. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote: Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Where is anyone whining about this? Nobody here is. The point being made is about why other grants are not being accepted. On 08-Jan-2015 10:06 pm, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote: Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I am optimistic that some great proposals might surface. Fred On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:30:08 +0200 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
Hello all, On Friday 16 January 2015 Wikipedia will receive in the person of Jimmy Wales a honorary doctorate in Maastricht, the Netherlands. He will receive this during the Dies Natalis of Maastricht University. The ceremony starts at 15:00 in the St.Janskerk (Minderbroedersberg). Attendees must be there at 14:45. After the Dies Natalis there is a reception organized by Maastricht University. If anyone wishes to visit the Dies Natalis and needs more information, contact me. You need to register your presence in a form on the website of the university! Jimmy has that day a busy schedule (including a lecture for students) and is not able to have a wikimeet this day. Photos of the event will be published on Commons. On Thursday 15 January Jimmy is in Amsterdam for a symposium. After the symposium we have organised a wikimeet in this building: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waag,_Amsterdam (It is said to be the oldest remaining non-religious building in Amsterdam.) The meeting starts at 20:00. You can sign up to be present in the section Ja, ik kom! (= Yes, I come!) at https://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimeet_in_Amsterdam_met_Jimmy_Wales If you need more information, you can contact me. See you next week! Romaine 2014-11-17 23:01 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com: Hi all, A local newspaper in the Netherlands had today as headline: Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia Translated: Honory degree for Timmermans and Wikipedia * Who is coming to Maastricht? * Can we organize a wikimeet that day in Maastricht? Romaine Rough translation of the newspaper: Maastricht University (UM) awarded an honorary doctorate to Frans Timmermans and the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. They will be honored for the exceptional contributions they, directly or indirectly, have made to academic education and research. Commissioner Frans Timmermans is praised for his great contributions to both European and international relations. The American Jimmy Wales Wikipedia has established a platform accessible to everyone, which (in particular) for students not to imagine that it does not exist as infinite source of information. The honorary doctorates will be awarded during the official celebration of Dies Natalis, which takes place on 16 January 2015 at Sint Janskerk in Maastricht. Besides Timmermans and Wales, are also academics Michelle Craske (nominated by the Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience) and Wolfgang Wahlster (nominated by the Faculty of Humanities and Sciences) awarded an honorary doctorate. Original in Dutch below: Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia De Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Zij worden gehuldigd voor de uitzonderlijke bijdragen die zij, direct of indirect, hebben geleverd aan academisch onderwijs en onderzoek. Eurocommissaris Frans Timmermans wordt geprezen om zijn grote bijdragen aan zowel Europese als internationale relaties. De Amerikaan Jimmy Wales heeft met Wikipedia een voor iedereen toegankelijk platform opgericht, dat (in het bijzonder) voor studenten niet meer weg te denken is als oneindige bron van informatie. De eredoctoraten worden uitgereikt tijdens de officiële viering van de Dies Natalis, die plaatsvindt op 16 januari 2015 in de Sint Janskerk te Maastricht. Naast Timmermand en Wales worden tevens academici Michelle Craske (genomineerd door de Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience) en Wolfgang Wahlster (genomineerd door de Faculty of Humanities and Sciences) onderscheiden met een eredoctoraat. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Sorry to interrupted, just a short question. I'm looking for statistics of how many project ideas/requests were submitted in the past. How many volunteers and WMF-employees were and are involved in evaluating all these submissions and so on. Can anybody provide me with a link or any other kind of reliable informations on that? best regards Jens Best 2015-01-08 15:13 GMT+01:00 Leigh Thelmadatter osama...@hotmail.com: I dont think the issue is the idea of encouraging projects that increase the participation of women, but rather the message that everything else is getting shoved aside. I dont see this as sexism and playing that card is counter-productive. What I suggest is that instead of saying that for three months everyone else is sidelined, focus on inclusion. If there arent enough or good enough projects for addressing the number of women participating in Wikipedia, perhaps we should look into why. Perhaps also look into the Foundation directly reaching out to women's groups for collaborative purposes. But the OP does have a point. By telling certain groups we are not interested in you right now you are playing an us-against-them game and quite probably causing more harm than good. Leigh Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:03:40 -0500 From: nawr...@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision You certainly put a lot of time and effort into being wrong. Any first year undergraduate writing course will tell you that to make an argument you need to address the counter-arguments, which you have failed even to mention. Diversity of contributors isn't a social justice goal, or even a cultural engineering goal. It is aimed squarely at increasing the diversity and caliber of content. Not only does the small proportion of women mean that millions of them with huge amounts of expertise to contribute are unheard, it also means that their perspective and approach are underrepresented or missing entirely. And yes, the same is true for others - not only African-Americans, but Africans. Not only people of Indo-Asian descent, but the people of the Indian subcontinent itself. This is not an American movement, yet the global south is deeply under-represented, and the WMF has been working for years to address this issue. This is, again, because diversity of contributors matters for the breadth and depth of coverage in our projects. The goal of the Wikimedia movement is the sum of all human knowledge, not the sum of knowledge held by white men between 15 and 35 living in Europe and North America. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I am in two grant committees, and I can assure that I comment the value of the project and not the sex or the race of the candidate. I think that a woman would appreciate more that a project is supported because it's a good project than because it is a project submitted by a woman. Anyway the number of the projects focused to reduce the gender gap are not so many, but there are no barriers for submission. Personally I support to dedicate some months for a topic like the gender gap not because the grants can be assigned to the women, but because the expectation is to have a better communication and to widespread that the women can apply for a grant and (last but not least) that some best practices or examples can come up to be replicated in other linguistical communities. regards On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Keilana keilanaw...@gmail.com wrote: Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469 Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
Ah, just in time for ENWP's birthday on January 15. Am 08.01.2015 18:13 schrieb Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com: Hello all, On Friday 16 January 2015 Wikipedia will receive in the person of Jimmy Wales a honorary doctorate in Maastricht, the Netherlands. He will receive this during the Dies Natalis of Maastricht University. The ceremony starts at 15:00 in the St.Janskerk (Minderbroedersberg). Attendees must be there at 14:45. After the Dies Natalis there is a reception organized by Maastricht University. If anyone wishes to visit the Dies Natalis and needs more information, contact me. You need to register your presence in a form on the website of the university! Jimmy has that day a busy schedule (including a lecture for students) and is not able to have a wikimeet this day. Photos of the event will be published on Commons. On Thursday 15 January Jimmy is in Amsterdam for a symposium. After the symposium we have organised a wikimeet in this building: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waag,_Amsterdam (It is said to be the oldest remaining non-religious building in Amsterdam.) The meeting starts at 20:00. You can sign up to be present in the section Ja, ik kom! (= Yes, I come!) at https://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimeet_in_Amsterdam_met_Jimmy_Wales If you need more information, you can contact me. See you next week! Romaine 2014-11-17 23:01 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com: Hi all, A local newspaper in the Netherlands had today as headline: Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia Translated: Honory degree for Timmermans and Wikipedia * Who is coming to Maastricht? * Can we organize a wikimeet that day in Maastricht? Romaine Rough translation of the newspaper: Maastricht University (UM) awarded an honorary doctorate to Frans Timmermans and the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. They will be honored for the exceptional contributions they, directly or indirectly, have made to academic education and research. Commissioner Frans Timmermans is praised for his great contributions to both European and international relations. The American Jimmy Wales Wikipedia has established a platform accessible to everyone, which (in particular) for students not to imagine that it does not exist as infinite source of information. The honorary doctorates will be awarded during the official celebration of Dies Natalis, which takes place on 16 January 2015 at Sint Janskerk in Maastricht. Besides Timmermans and Wales, are also academics Michelle Craske (nominated by the Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience) and Wolfgang Wahlster (nominated by the Faculty of Humanities and Sciences) awarded an honorary doctorate. Original in Dutch below: Eredocteraat voor Timmermans en Wikipedia De Universiteit Maastricht (UM) reikt een eredoctoraat uit aan Frans Timmermans en de oprichter van Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. Zij worden gehuldigd voor de uitzonderlijke bijdragen die zij, direct of indirect, hebben geleverd aan academisch onderwijs en onderzoek. Eurocommissaris Frans Timmermans wordt geprezen om zijn grote bijdragen aan zowel Europese als internationale relaties. De Amerikaan Jimmy Wales heeft met Wikipedia een voor iedereen toegankelijk platform opgericht, dat (in het bijzonder) voor studenten niet meer weg te denken is als oneindige bron van informatie. De eredoctoraten worden uitgereikt tijdens de officiële viering van de Dies Natalis, die plaatsvindt op 16 januari 2015 in de Sint Janskerk te Maastricht. Naast Timmermand en Wales worden tevens academici Michelle Craske (genomineerd door de Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience) en Wolfgang Wahlster (genomineerd door de Faculty of Humanities and Sciences) onderscheiden met een eredoctoraat. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 4:30 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the WikiGods have my uid on an alert trigger now. :) I think the question is only being asked because you're displaying a profound lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and Wikimedia work, not only in your recent proposal, but in commenting on this sensitive topic. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and you've been polite in expressing it—that goes a long way, at least with me. So please don't think that it's a matter of demanding a certain number of WikiCred points before the WikiGods will let you sit at the WikiGrownups table, or anything like that. Just understand that this issue has a lot of people on edge, and at this rate it won't be long before politely ignored becomes less ignored and less polite. Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
It's a rhetorical question, but, based on experience, I would probably chime in if a similar proposal was floated about native people such as African tribes or American Indians; most hardly ever edit, even in their own language, and throwing money at the problem is unlikely to be productive. It may be that a few clever effective proposals about gender participation might surface. I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Fred On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:43:40 +0200 Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: How is it possible to give a realistic answer to that question? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: 08 January 2015 02:42 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision I have one simple question: if the Grants program was to focus on some other key area rather than the gender gap, would we be having this discussion about how horrible it is to waste time this way? Would we see throwing up of hands in this way if the focus was, say, requests from the Global South? A focus on getting great bots built and working across wikis? A focus on events and processes for media collection? (Incidentally the latter more or less happens anyway with several groups applying for funding for WLM within a narrow period...) Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women. I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases. Risker/Anne On 8 January 2015 at 02:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear fellow Wikipedia devotees, While I'm new to this list, I've been an avid fan and proponent of Wikipedia and all the great service it gives people since it launched. People can learn not just all the basics of nearly any topic imaginable, but for a large number, readers can with diligence become expert on more than a few and save themselves the cost of tuition/training. All this, in addition to satisfying their curiosity about millions of subjects. That said, it doesn't matter who writes the content on Wikipedia so long as it's relevant and factual. Unlike the published, single-authority edited encyclopediae of the past, Wikipedia allows anyone with relevant information to contribute to it. Their additions or other edits are checked by volunteers to make sure the edit isn't a defacement, irrelevant, patently unfactual, or unverifiable. They are typically left as written or maybe edited only for grammar/spelling. Wikipedia is a rare success story in democracy of knowledge. If one feels moved to contribute, they do. If not, they don't. It's like voting in a sense, though it's true people in democracies should perhaps take the opportunity to do so more often. But it's up to them. Like voting or anything else, to single out a particular group of people based on their indelible characteristics as being desirable as contributors to any field implicitly devalues the contributions not just of those currently contributing who don't fall into that category, but also says to any other group of a particular identity that you care more about the group you're trying to get more involvement from than them. Identity politics is unfortunately a fact of our current political climate and I hope one day we can, as MLK Jr. hoped, judge one another not by skin color (and I'd add gender, sexuality, and a few others), but by content of character. In the context of Wikipedia, this would translate to the veracity and applicability of contributions made to the vast Wikipedia knowledge-base -- not who in particular is doing the contributing, nor their indelible characteristics of person. Because identity politics is today part of general electoral politics doesn't mean it need be for anything else, and especially given how such things as a person's ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., say nothing about what they know about or can do, I don't see how it's relevant to the veracity and applicability of Wikipedia's knowledge base. I don't care that, for example, a black person (Charles Drew, MD) came up with the process of creating blood plasma, an innovation that has saved millions of lives. He was tragically and mortally injured in a car accident, however, and so his potential future achievements were lost to humanity. (He was not refused treatment for his injuries at the hospital he was taken to because of his ethnicity, as is widely but falsely believed; he was just so badly injured that he died. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_R._Drew#Death ). I also don't care that Adm Grace Hopper (USN)
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap
I was actually wondering if Matt had much experience of the often discussed toxic environment reported for some of the Wikipedias, and cited as a reason for low female participation. Perhaps I should have asked more directly. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Austin Hair Sent: 08 January 2015 06:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 4:30 PM, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: But in future, I think I'll sign in more often, esp. now that half the WikiGods have my uid on an alert trigger now. :) I think the question is only being asked because you're displaying a profound lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and Wikimedia work, not only in your recent proposal, but in commenting on this sensitive topic. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and you've been polite in expressing it—that goes a long way, at least with me. So please don't think that it's a matter of demanding a certain number of WikiCred points before the WikiGods will let you sit at the WikiGrownups table, or anything like that. Just understand that this issue has a lot of people on edge, and at this rate it won't be long before politely ignored becomes less ignored and less polite. Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
I'm just going to preface this by pointing out that I didn't actually read all of the OP due to a philosophical opposition to giant walls of text, but I think you've kind of missed the point in a few places. Also please don't call people names. That's not nice. On 08/01/15 10:52, geni wrote: On 8 January 2015 at 07:07, mcc99 mc...@hotmail.com wrote: If you ask any RN the names of the greatest contributors to the nursing profession, you'll get a stream of women's names. To suggest that nursing needs more men or else it won't be able to achieve its greatest potential would be a crass and inaccurate insult to the many thousands of women who have made modern nursing what it is. Of course there have been and will be male nurses who stand out as contributors, but only a very small percentage, probably in keeping with the ratio of men to women in nursing. And yet, despite the high salaries RNs command, are there any gov't-sponsored initiatives to get men into nursing? In fact nurses get paid less than the male national average wage. This is clearly some definition of high salaries I wasn't previously familiar with Are male nurses paid more than female ones? Otherwise that's not really relevant. If so, it'd be news to me and many others. But I ask, if men by and large, for whatever reasons, aren't interested in becoming nurses, why make a big deal about it? Reducing the recruitment pool is less than ideal. However the number of men training to be nurses has been increasing so it is probably felt the problem will solve itself. Are there gov't-sponsored campaigns to get more women into the relatively lucrative job of refuse collection? Ah you can tell the piece you are recycling from is dated. Post privatisation refuse collection has ceased to be a particularly lucrative job. I think that was supposed to be a joke. Gender disparities exist across the field in both low-paying and high-paying fields, but generally the focus is only to get more women into higher-paying ones, especially ones involving technology. In a way it does seem to be a bit of a tangent here, where contributors aren't necessarily paid in the first place, but research into how we as a movement fit into the overall pattern of field-based gender disparities might show a solid connection. It'd certainly be interesting, if nothing else, especially if folks were to compare both regionally and globally. (Think professional STEM fields.) I'm a chemist you insensitive clod. Depending on what you are doing it can be dirty or dangerous. I get that you disagree, but that's not helping anything. -I ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF is shutting down grantmaking for good projects for 3 months for no reason
* Liam Wyatt wrote: I understand from the explanations that the reason for not accepting any non-gender-gap focused grants for several months is because of the expected workload on the staff in reviewing applications and supporting the projects that do get funded. However, what I don't understand is what added incentive there is for people to submit grant applications on the chosen topic (in this instance it is gender-gap, but it could be other topics in the future)? Since it is already possible to submit a gender-gap focused grant, how does the refusal to accept other kinds of project submissions increase the number/quality/variety of gender-gap grants? One reason would be that anyone interested in applying for a gender- gap focused grant will have to do it now, since odds of success will be very low for such applications after the three months. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015) · http://www.websitedev.de/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
If this was intended as a response to my post I'm afraid I don’t get the relevance. I was also not aware that the grants were awarded to men. I thought they were awarded to projects on merit. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Keilana Sent: 08 January 2015 06:36 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision Hearing people whine “what about the men” because, God forbid, men might not get *every single* grant this time (as they did in the pilot round of IEGs), is incredibly tiresome. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: If you take it entirely at face value, I find it quite inoffensive. As I have no experience with reviewing grant proposals, I can't comment on its accuracy, but I am quite happy to take Fred's word for it. Offence is often available if you search for it hard enough. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 08 January 2015 06:17 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision On 8 Jan 2015 16:11, FRED BAUDER fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: ... I've noticed that women are often quite motivated and good at writing grant proposals. Extending good faith I would presume this is irony. It does not transmit well by email. Please keep in mind how offensive this sort of thing appears. Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8890 - Release Date: 01/08/15 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WaPo Wikipedia's 'complicated; relationship with net neutrality
* Kim Bruning wrote: Found another article calling out Wikipedia. Are there also articles praising us? :-) https://medium.com/backchannel/less-than-zero-199bcb05a868 Quoting, Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp and Wikipedia become “the Internet” for the users of mobile data supported by “zero rating” plans, because accessing these services doesn’t cause users to hit the data caps applied by the carriers, and in many cases the plans don’t require the user to sign up for mobile data at all. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero_Operating_Principles Wikipedia Zero cannot be sold as part of a bundle. Access to the Wikimedia sites through Wikipedia Zero cannot be sold through limited service bundles. It seems pretty clear to me that users of Wikipedia Zero must pay a non-trivial amount for mobile data above and beyond normal telephony services, even if they only access zero-rated services, otherwise it is a limited service bundle which we are lead to believe is forbidden. (It is also possible the intent of the requirement above is that it is entirely okay to sell Wikipedia Zero through limited service bundles so long as an operator does not offer even more limited services; in that case the phrasing is grossly misleading.) I assume the Foundation closely monitors offerings of operators it has made an agreement with to ensure access to Wikipedia Zero is never sold as part of a limited service bundle. Could the relevant records please be released? -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de D-10243 Berlin · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de Available for hire in Berlin (early 2015) · http://www.websitedev.de/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women. I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases. Maybe you're only talking about this specific fork of the thread, but I was happy to see that the previous discussion managed to stay on-topic and largely avoid the specific social issue. I saw a lot of people with specific criticism of the decision, completely separate from the cause. (I appreciate that Leigh was still clinging to that idea while the thread was being dragged into the abyss, only to be insulted in the process.) Having addressed that, I want to say to everybody that Wikimedia-l is a lot of things, not all good, but the previous conversation was at least on-topic. Does anyone seriously think that this one is? Please, please don't make me start content filtering based on words like feminazi or misogynist. Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
Dr. Wikipedia only specializes in treating CN. -greg ___ Sent from my iPhone - a more detailed response may be sent later. On Jan 8, 2015, at 3:09 PM, Austin Hair adh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote: It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is not connected to a discipline. So, wait... you're saying that Wikipedia is not a real doctor, and I *shouldn't* be relying on it for medical advice? Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Honorary degree for Wikipedia + meeting
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote: It is an honorary doctorate, not quite the same. As I understand it, it is not connected to a discipline. So, wait... you're saying that Wikipedia is not a real doctor, and I *shouldn't* be relying on it for medical advice? Austin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Why WMF should reconsider the 3-month gender gap project-related decision
On 08/01/15 20:04, Austin Hair wrote: On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Frankly, there's not a single thing I've read, or a single objection I've seen raised, that wasn't about how unnecessary it is to focus on women. I don't think we've ever heard that about the global south, or non-European languages, or a lot of other areas where there are acknowledged biases. Maybe you're only talking about this specific fork of the thread, but I was happy to see that the previous discussion managed to stay on-topic and largely avoid the specific social issue. I saw a lot of people with specific criticism of the decision, completely separate from the cause. (I appreciate that Leigh was still clinging to that idea while the thread was being dragged into the abyss, only to be insulted in the process.) Having addressed that, I want to say to everybody that Wikimedia-l is a lot of things, not all good, but the previous conversation was at least on-topic. Does anyone seriously think that this one is? Please, please don't make me start content filtering based on words like feminazi or misogynist. Austin As far as I can tell, this is the first time either of those words have shown up in the discussion. It's true that the bulk of this thread is only about the particular topic chosen for the 3-month focus, whereas the previous thread was about the nature of having 3-month focuses in the first place and particularly the chosen implementation, but so long as people remain civil, why can both not be valid topics of discussion? It doesn't even matter what the topic is, really. It ought to be worth discussing if only to clarify what it means to different folks, but even and in doing so, how better to generate possible ideas for projects? -I ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
