Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

[Richard Farmbrough]

Thanks for the (single) use case: Trouble is it just  pushes the 
question further down the road.


"inadequate for some compelling reason "

On 13/08/2015 09:25, Pine W wrote:

A*few*  legitimate use cases could be:

*Superprotection by stewards of legally or technically sensitive pages, to
prevent damage caused by a hijacked admin account. The theory here is that
admin accounts are more numerous than steward accounts, so the liklihood of
a successful admin account hijack may be higher. Superprotection would
proactively limit possible damage. Admins doing routine maintenance work,
or taking actions with community consent, could simply make a request for a
temporary lift of superprotect by a steward or ask a steward to make an
edit themselves.

*Upon community request, superprotection of pages by a steward where those
pages are the subject of wheel-warring among local admins.

*Superprotection of a page by a steward for legal reasons at the request of
WMF Legal, for example if a page is the subject of a legal dispute and
normal full protection is inadequate for some  compelling reason.

None of this is an endorsement of WMF's first use of superprotect. I would
prefer that if superprotect continues to exist as a tool, that it be in the
hands of the stewards and not WMF directly.

Pine



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

[Richard Farmbrough]

No community would want to change documents issued by the WMF, if it 
did, the stewards would be crazy to do so.


This is reaching.

Why?

On 11/08/2015 22:34, Risker wrote:

However, stewards under their current
process could very well find themselves in a situation where a "community"
wants to do something, like change the (global) terms of use or the
(global) interpretation of copyright policyat which point their current
rules put them smack in the middle of the global community and WMF board
that approved a global policy, and a local community that wants to have its
own.



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

[Richard Farmbrough]

Not a good example.   This could be a special page.

On 11/08/2015 21:56, Risker wrote:

There are situations where not even the administrators of a particular
community should be allowed to edit a page. A good example would be the
pages that describe the copyright and licensing of Wikimedia products.
Individual communities cannot change that (it applies globally), and
individual administrators should not modify it. If there is a problem with
translation, that needs to be brought to the attention of the WMF, because
there may be a similar problem with translation elsewhere.

There are also some examples currently being discussed on the Wikitech-L
list that may require significantly elevated levels of protection above
'all administrators on Project ABC', although they may call for another
level of protection that can be customizable to allowing a much smaller
group or specific individuals to be the only editors.

Risker/Anne




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect's first birthday

[Richard Farmbrough]

Using it for legal disputes is poor form.  We had legal disputes before, 
and managed them with "office actions".  If you don't trust the admins 
not to  purposefully post libel or copyvios, then super-protecting a 
page or two won't help.


Moreover it implies that the Foundation can or will take action in these 
matters to override the community, which opens them up to charges of 
discrimination, favouritism, nepotism, cowardice, corruption or at least 
stupidity.



On 11/08/2015 19:36, John Lewis wrote:
Yes. It was used a few months ago to prevent editing the Germany item 
on Wikidata due to a very serious breaking issue. Also on several 
pages following legal disputes. Superprotect in my opinion if used 
correctly is an essential tool which can prevent legal and technical 
issues that can in theory cause wide disruption. John 



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[James Alexander]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Lane Rasberry 
wrote:

> I wonder if this is related to the recent blocking of reddit.
>
> <
>
> http://www.vocativ.com/news/221534/the-story-behind-russias-reddit-shutdown/


Same law of course, but there doesn't appear to be a direct connection.

James
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Lane Rasberry]

I wonder if this is related to the recent blocking of reddit.

<
http://www.vocativ.com/news/221534/the-story-behind-russias-reddit-shutdown/
>

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> To me the basic step in such a case like this is translating the article
> about the agency in more languages, so that people can get more background
> information. The article:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Service_for_Supervision_in_the_Sphere_of_Telecom,_Information_Technologies_and_Mass_Communications
>
> Creating awareness starts with having a good article about the organisation
> in question.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-24 17:24 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :
>
> > Today, the Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of
> > Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications instructed all
> > Russian internet providers to block all user access to Wikipedia. All
> > involved parties are aware of the development. I am not sure whether only
> > ru.wikipedia.org will be blocked, or all WMF projects. In the latter
> > case, if you are going to travel to Russia, you will need to gen an IP
> > exempt flag in advance in the projects you are going to edit.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > ___
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-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Romaine Wiki]

To me the basic step in such a case like this is translating the article
about the agency in more languages, so that people can get more background
information. The article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Service_for_Supervision_in_the_Sphere_of_Telecom,_Information_Technologies_and_Mass_Communications

Creating awareness starts with having a good article about the organisation
in question.

Romaine

2015-08-24 17:24 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :

> Today, the Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of
> Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications instructed all
> Russian internet providers to block all user access to Wikipedia. All
> involved parties are aware of the development. I am not sure whether only
> ru.wikipedia.org will be blocked, or all WMF projects. In the latter
> case, if you are going to travel to Russia, you will need to gen an IP
> exempt flag in advance in the projects you are going to edit.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Laurentius]

Il giorno lun, 24/08/2015 alle 13.08 +0200, Jane Darnell ha scritto:
> What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for
> those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
> situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries,
> ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

In any country you have a list of monuments and you can submit a picture
of one of those monuments. In Italy it's exactly the same.
The problem lies in building the list of monuments! But for the users,
it is not more difficult than in any other country.

What we do is asking to the organizations that have the rights on the
monuments to provide an authorization for uploading the pictures on
Commons during the contest. The participants to the contest do not have
any specific work to do related to this.

Laurentius



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Strainu]

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki :
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner.

It's more like 85-90% in my experience, but still a lot.

> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest
> in Italy and needs a banner as well.

Why not use the sitenotice?

Strainu

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2015-08-24 17:46, Gregory Varnum wrote:

Does anyone know more about the article on an illegal drug they are
referring to?

Sounds like it’s just Russian Wikipedia and not the other languages or
projects. Anyone able to verify?

-greg


This is the article: 
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81_%28%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE%29


(it was moved from the origibal location, which is now a dab).

The intention of the agency was to only block access to this page. What 
they will be actually blocking depends on how the https routing works. I 
do not know, it is either only the Russian Wikipedia, or all WMF 
projects.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Gregory Varnum]

Does anyone know more about the article on an illegal drug they are referring 
to?

Sounds like it’s just Russian Wikipedia and not the other languages or 
projects. Anyone able to verify?

-greg


> On Aug 24, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Mathias Schindler  
> wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> there is a note online at the Roskomnadzor (the russian agency in
> question) web site referring to the block:
> http://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news34253.htm
> 
> Mathias
> 
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>> Today, the Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom,
>> Information Technologies and Mass Communications instructed all Russian
>> internet providers to block all user access to Wikipedia. All involved
>> parties are aware of the development. I am not sure whether only
>> ru.wikipedia.org will be blocked, or all WMF projects. In the latter case,
>> if you are going to travel to Russia, you will need to gen an IP exempt flag
>> in advance in the projects you are going to edit.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Mathias Schindler]

Greetings,

there is a note online at the Roskomnadzor (the russian agency in
question) web site referring to the block:
http://rkn.gov.ru/news/rsoc/news34253.htm

Mathias

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
> Today, the Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom,
> Information Technologies and Mass Communications instructed all Russian
> internet providers to block all user access to Wikipedia. All involved
> parties are aware of the development. I am not sure whether only
> ru.wikipedia.org will be blocked, or all WMF projects. In the latter case,
> if you are going to travel to Russia, you will need to gen an IP exempt flag
> in advance in the projects you are going to edit.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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> 

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[Wikimedia-l] Imminent block of access to Wikipedia in Russia

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

Today, the Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of 
Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications instructed all 
Russian internet providers to block all user access to Wikipedia. All 
involved parties are aware of the development. I am not sure whether 
only ru.wikipedia.org will be blocked, or all WMF projects. In the 
latter case, if you are going to travel to Russia, you will need to gen 
an IP exempt flag in advance in the projects you are going to edit.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Andrea Zanni]

Hello everyone.
Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation for
Wikimedia Italia.
The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some important
points.

In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been contacted by
Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who explained that the
Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising campaign in Italy
in September.
We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is well-known to
run in September, and it has been like that for years.
Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we discussed for several
days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR banners went live
just for the last days.
It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all September.
This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given the history,
and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and written so in
the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible in matters of
communication.
We are not *happy* with the situation,
the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this appeared in the
middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few weeks before
the beginning of WLM.
We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in constructive
conversation and negotiation.
The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: it's just better
than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a few days in
the middle of September.
Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this does not
mean that we are happy about what is happening.
Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate expected results
for WLM in 2015.

Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a clear negative
impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of Wikimedia Italia.
This will not only likely reduce the number of participants and uploaded
pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in front of our
sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ cultural
institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the Federation of Italian
photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council of Museums),
the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring Club Italiano
(the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT spends
thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste money, but
because we have higher stakes.

This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international renowned
photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve McCurry (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco Fontana (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
This year, in June, we were received by several politicians from the
Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law we are fighting
as WMIT.

Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes beyond being
a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to create
relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures of monuments.

Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of monuments,
even if copyright has expired.
We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. For. Every.
Monument.
We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There is no
official list of monuments in Italy.

There is *extensive* documentation here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects

This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy stats:
http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it is the reason
why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics each. In 2014
alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of number of
photos.

The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the Wikimedia
Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also Wiki Loves
Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from other sources).
The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia movement: but, for
this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of the very
activities it is meant to support.
Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon in a small
library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international competition
who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands of pictures
to the Wikimedia projects.
We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially when it is
done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors money to build
and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect for all the
people who decided to donate their time, their money or their career to the
movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could also have a
negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
We are all part of the sa

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Jane Darnell]

Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if
we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to
the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page
rather than some other way.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds <
richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:

> I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
> attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion
> of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way
> there.
>
> Richard Symonds
> Wikimedia UK
> 0207 065 0992
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
> United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
> movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
> operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
>
> *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
> over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
>
> On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell  wrote:
>
>> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the
>> impact
>> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
>> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian
>> situation
>> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
>> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
>> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Jane,
>> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama.
>> The
>> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
>> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
>> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
>> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
>> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
>> does
>> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
>> >
>> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
>> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
>> >
>> > Romaine
>> >
>> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :
>> >
>> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow
>> freedom
>> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
>> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
>> understand
>> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
>> late
>> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
>> specific
>> >> municipalities that take part now.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki > >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
>> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
>> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is,
>> according to
>> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something.
>> In this
>> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>> >>>
>> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
>> seen
>> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
>> learned
>> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>> >>> underestimate.
>> >>>
>> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
>> countries
>> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
>> tales.
>> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
>> all
>> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
>> have
>> >>> picked the worst possible country.
>> >>>
>> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with
>> what
>> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>> >>>
>> >>> Romaine
>> >>>
>> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating > >:
>> >>>
>>  Hi Romaine,
>> 
>>  > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The
>> Italian
>>  WLM
>>  > team has been crashed under the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi Jane,

The situation is more complicated for the organisers, yes.
But for participants in the contest it is not complicated. The Italian WLM
team has organised it in such way it is easy to participate.

Greetings,
Romaine

2015-08-24 13:08 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :

> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jane,
> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
> does
> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
> >
> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :
> >
> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
> understand
> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
> late
> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
> specific
> >> municipalities that take part now.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
> to
> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
> this
> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
> >>>
> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
> seen
> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
> learned
> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
> >>> underestimate.
> >>>
> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
> countries
> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
> tales.
> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
> all
> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
> have
> >>> picked the worst possible country.
> >>>
> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
> >>>
> >>> Romaine
> >>>
> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :
> >>>
>  Hi Romaine,
> 
>  > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
>  WLM
>  > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>  Wikimedia
>  > Foundation.
> 
>  Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>  understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>  know
>  from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
> WMF
>  staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
>  WLM
>  will be less than you expect in this case).
> 
>  But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
>  with
>  what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
> all
>  and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
>  has
>  the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
>  always
>  be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
> what
>  they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
> 
>  Regards,
> 
>  Chris
>  ___
>  Wikimedia-l mailing 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Richard Symonds]

I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still
attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of
"casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way
there.

Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control
over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*

On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell  wrote:

> I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
> of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
> countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
> is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
> uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
> the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jane,
> > Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> > copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> > Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> > local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> > Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> > comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
> does
> > a great job in getting all the permissions.
> >
> > You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> > impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :
> >
> >> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> >> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> >> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
> understand
> >> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
> late
> >> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
> specific
> >> municipalities that take part now.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
> >>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
> >>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
> to
> >>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
> this
> >>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> >>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> >>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> >>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
> >>>
> >>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
> >>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
> seen
> >>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
> >>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
> learned
> >>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
> >>> underestimate.
> >>>
> >>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> >>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> >>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
> countries
> >>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
> tales.
> >>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
> all
> >>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
> have
> >>> picked the worst possible country.
> >>>
> >>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> >>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
> >>>
> >>> Romaine
> >>>
> >>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :
> >>>
>  Hi Romaine,
> 
>  > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
>  WLM
>  > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>  Wikimedia
>  > Foundation.
> 
>  Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>  understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>  know
>  from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
> WMF
>  staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
>  WLM
>  will be less than you expect in this case).
> 
>  But it is plain

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Jane Darnell]

I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact
of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those
countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation
is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual
uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo,
the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> Hi Jane,
> Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
> copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
> Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
> local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
> Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
> comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
> a great job in getting all the permissions.
>
> You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
> impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :
>
>> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
>> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
>> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
>> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late
>> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
>> municipalities that take part now.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly
>>> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are
>>> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to
>>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
>>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>>>
>>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
>>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
>>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>>> underestimate.
>>>
>>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
>>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
>>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
>>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
>>> picked the worst possible country.
>>>
>>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
>>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>>>
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :
>>>
 Hi Romaine,

 > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
 WLM
 > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
 Wikimedia
 > Foundation.

 Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
 understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
 know
 from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
 staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on
 WLM
 will be less than you expect in this case).

 But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead
 with
 what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
 and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
 has
 the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will
 always
 be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
 they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

 Regards,

 Chris
 ___
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 
 Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>>> wikilovesmonume...@li

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Hi Jane,
Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The
copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia
Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands
local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki
Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in
comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does
a great job in getting all the permissions.

You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the
impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.

Romaine

2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell :

> Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom
> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the
> type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand
> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late
> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
> municipalities that take part now.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
>> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not
>> a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
>> under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
>> dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
>> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
>> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
>> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>>
>> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have,
>> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen
>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have
>> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned
>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not
>> underestimate.
>>
>> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
>> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
>> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
>> picked the worst possible country.
>>
>> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
>> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :
>>
>>> Hi Romaine,
>>>
>>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
>>> WLM
>>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>>> Wikimedia
>>> > Foundation.
>>>
>>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>>> know
>>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
>>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
>>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>>>
>>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
>>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn
>>> has
>>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
>>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> 
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Jane Darnell]

Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of
panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type
of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the
oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to
join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific
municipalities that take part now.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not
> a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
> under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
> dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash
> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer,
> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
>
> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but
> I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each
> time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed
> the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the
> past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
>
> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
> picked the worst possible country.
>
> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what
> you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :
>
>> Hi Romaine,
>>
>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
>> Wikimedia
>> > Foundation.
>>
>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I
>> know
>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
>> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
>> will be less than you expect in this case).
>>
>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chris
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> 
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Romaine Wiki]

Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a
compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed
under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the
dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between
WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect
and other issues. I personally hope not.

You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but
I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each
time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed
the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the
past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.

And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash
somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the
planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have
picked the worst possible country.

You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you
make clear you missed the essence of this case.

Romaine

2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :

> Hi Romaine,
>
> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
> > Foundation.
>
> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
> staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
> will be less than you expect in this case).
>
> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[Chris Keating]

Hi Romaine,

> And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
> team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
> Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
will be less than you expect in this case).

But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

Regards,

Chris
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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