Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Since was in WA would have been nice to wait until someone here had commented before making contact I have already emailed Len Collard, they were trying to organise a date to talk 2/3 weeks ago Believe WMF Philippe is also involved because of the negative use of WP name in the press release and the use of WP name to gain $600,000 worth of funding Gideon On 8 March 2014 08:42, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com wrote: When in doubt, ask. Emailing Leonard Collard now ... watch this space ... Kerry -- *From:* wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of * cro0...@gmail.com *Sent:* Saturday, 8 March 2014 10:32 AM *To:* Wikimedia Australia Chapter *Cc:* Wikimedia Australia Chapter *Subject:* Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia Nope I haven't heard anything as of yet - there would be something on Metaif a new Wikipedia was created though. Steve Zhang Sent from my iPad On 8 Mar 2014, at 11:19 am, Charles Gregory wikimediaau.li...@chuq.net wrote: http://www.news.uwa.edu.au/201402116439/arts-and-culture/new-media-throw-lifeline-ancient-language Has anyone seen this? Does it refer to a new website or a language version of Wikipedia? (Wikipedia doesn't appear to be mentioned in the article but I found it from this tweet - https://twitter.com/IndigenousTweet/status/433230348801961985 ) Regards, Charles ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l -- GN. Vice President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Hi Janet, One thing that most of us (who are generally only English speakers) don't take into account is that a lot of the rules that we have on Wikipedia are actually English Wikipedia rules. Verifiability, notability, etc guidelines are pretty broad, but some language Wikipedias may choose to have different standards. It's all decided by the community for that particular language. Regards, Charles On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:52 PM, Janet Reid lucych...@gmail.com wrote: On 8 March 2014 21:54, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: For what it's worth, this is something I thought about a lot during my time involved with WMAU. I don't think an Indigenous language Wikipedia is going to be viable in the short term. It would be nice for there to be a way to recognise Aboriginal perspectives. Citing is likely to be a challenge. Once I showed some community women in Maree the page for Maree It said her language was extinct. She said it was not. I posted to the talk page that local people did still speak the language. But the source was a living person whereas the extinction was citing a published book. Is there a different kind of wiki project which could accommodate that kind of perspective/source. Is it possible to make articles which are relevant in their relevant languages? Not make a full wikipedia but capture descriptions of communities and places in the relevant language? just a thought j ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Also I think something that, given the structure of their society and culture, they should be driving rather than us. I'd be open to helping Aboriginal groups who approached us for technical or other assistance. But we must always remember it's their culture and we're outsiders. At this stage I think it's best to leave it to the contact Gnangarra had with them and see where that goes. kindest regards Andrew On 8 March 2014 19:24, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: For what it's worth, this is something I thought about a lot during my time involved with WMAU. I don't think an Indigenous language Wikipedia is going to be viable in the short term. Collard cites Maori and Welsh as examples of situations where a language has been successfully revived, and both languages have reasonably active Wikipediae. But both, even during their darkest days, had tens of thousands of fluent speakers keeping things alive. Noongar, according to the press release, has less than 300. There are simply not the numbers of fluent speakers available to form a cohesive and active Wikipedia community for the sustained period of time that would be needed to produce something useful. Not that I don't think producing an encyclopaedia in the Noongar language is anything but a laudable and worthy idea, but I don't think that the Wikipedia model is one that is likely to bear fruit in this particular circumstance. On a more practical note, to create a new language edition of Wikipedia there are quite a few hoops to jump through, including the requirement to build a test edition on the Incubator with a viable community, which is quite a high hurdle to jump over. Cheers, Craig Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:19:50 +1100 From: Charles Gregory wikimediaau.li...@chuq.net To: Wikimedia Australia Chapter wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia Message-ID: CADBtOrnpR3u1U92Sa46Kp-= jr8bwsjdkxodjtok4mw4zudv...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 http://www.news.uwa.edu.au/201402116439/arts-and-culture/new-media-throw-lifeline-ancient-language Has anyone seen this? Does it refer to a new website or a language version of Wikipedia? (Wikipedia doesn't appear to be mentioned in the article but I found it from this tweet - https://twitter.com/IndigenousTweet/status/433230348801961985 ) Regards, Charles -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaau-l/attachments/20140308/9647bbd8/attachment-0001.html ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Absolutely. I've always been firm on this point that a bunch of non-Indigenous people blundering into the area, even if they have the absolute best and purest of intentions, will almost certainly end up doing more harm than good. Leonard Collard, the Professor who is driving this, is actually an elder of the Noongar people, so he's a lot better qualified to determine what's culturally appropriate than we are. Cheers, Craig On 8 March 2014 22:40, Andrew Owens orderinchao...@gmail.com wrote: Also I think something that, given the structure of their society and culture, they should be driving rather than us. I'd be open to helping Aboriginal groups who approached us for technical or other assistance. But we must always remember it's their culture and we're outsiders. At this stage I think it's best to leave it to the contact Gnangarra had with them and see where that goes. kindest regards Andrew On 8 March 2014 19:24, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: For what it's worth, this is something I thought about a lot during my time involved with WMAU. I don't think an Indigenous language Wikipedia is going to be viable in the short term. Collard cites Maori and Welsh as examples of situations where a language has been successfully revived, and both languages have reasonably active Wikipediae. But both, even during their darkest days, had tens of thousands of fluent speakers keeping things alive. Noongar, according to the press release, has less than 300. There are simply not the numbers of fluent speakers available to form a cohesive and active Wikipedia community for the sustained period of time that would be needed to produce something useful. Not that I don't think producing an encyclopaedia in the Noongar language is anything but a laudable and worthy idea, but I don't think that the Wikipedia model is one that is likely to bear fruit in this particular circumstance. On a more practical note, to create a new language edition of Wikipedia there are quite a few hoops to jump through, including the requirement to build a test edition on the Incubator with a viable community, which is quite a high hurdle to jump over. Cheers, Craig Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 11:19:50 +1100 From: Charles Gregory wikimediaau.li...@chuq.net To: Wikimedia Australia Chapter wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia Message-ID: CADBtOrnpR3u1U92Sa46Kp-= jr8bwsjdkxodjtok4mw4zudv...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 http://www.news.uwa.edu.au/201402116439/arts-and-culture/new-media-throw-lifeline-ancient-language Has anyone seen this? Does it refer to a new website or a language version of Wikipedia? (Wikipedia doesn't appear to be mentioned in the article but I found it from this tweet - https://twitter.com/IndigenousTweet/status/433230348801961985 ) Regards, Charles -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaau-l/attachments/20140308/9647bbd8/attachment-0001.html ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Oh, and on the other topic you raise, you're thinking of Oral citations. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research%3aOral_Citations Unfortunately, it didn't end happily on English Wikipedia as it was just too much of a cultural leap for everyone to make, which is why you don't see them anymore. Cheers, Craig On 8 March 2014 22:40, Andrew Owens orderinchao...@gmail.com wrote: Also I think something that, given the structure of their society and culture, they should be driving rather than us. I'd be open to helping Aboriginal groups who approached us for technical or other assistance. But we must always remember it's their culture and we're outsiders. At this stage I think it's best to leave it to the contact Gnangarra had with them and see where that goes. kindest regards Andrew ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Oral histories are better being recorded, stored separately and then used for citation of quotes rather than pure reference sources, I think creating a Wikitionary Noongar language would be a better fit with en articles covering noongar stories and inclusion of Noongar stories, names etc in already existing articles On 8 March 2014 20:47, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: Oh, and on the other topic you raise, you're thinking of Oral citations. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research%3aOral_Citations Unfortunately, it didn't end happily on English Wikipedia as it was just too much of a cultural leap for everyone to make, which is why you don't see them anymore. Cheers, Craig On 8 March 2014 22:40, Andrew Owens orderinchao...@gmail.com wrote: Also I think something that, given the structure of their society and culture, they should be driving rather than us. I'd be open to helping Aboriginal groups who approached us for technical or other assistance. But we must always remember it's their culture and we're outsiders. At this stage I think it's best to leave it to the contact Gnangarra had with them and see where that goes. kindest regards Andrew ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l -- GN. Vice President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Hey all Just as an observation regarding the possibilities and potential for an Aboriginal Australian peoples kind project (see below): 1. the native title determination processes generate a lot of detailed research around the manner and extend to which original Aboriginal 'societies' continue and persist into the present ,, often involving research and expert opinion by some very prominent anthropologists, historians, and linguists 2. the native title determination processes are progressively generating detailed research, and for every successful determination, that are semi pubic claimant statements (giving local Aboriginal expert opinion), plus reports that are filed in Court to support claims, and are semi-public/ not priveledged ,, .. being information that the Aboriginal corporations whom the courts decide should hold particular native title generally hold, and can use as they see fit 3. would be interesting project/exercise to write to all the existing Aboriginal corporations holding native title (called registered prescribed bodies corporate), details of which are publicly available on the Office of the Registrar of Indigenous Corporations (ORIC) website .. inviting them to have Wikipedia articles ,, where the Federal Court has publicly detemined they are Aboriginal societies/ peoples (native title determinations are available on the Austlii website) ,, being articles for which we would like them to make witness statements and reports available Could be an interesting project, not only putting an Aboriginal perspective and record of research into Wikipedia/ the world ,, but also progressively displaying formal Federal Court determinations of the continuing existence of Aboriginal socieities in Australia ,, being contemporary Aboriginal peoples of Australia?? Currently very busy actually working on one of the native title claims in the North-East Queensland area .. but would be interested in assisting an exercise of this kind in couple of months time ,, should it be thought generally viable, agreeable etc Just some thoughts and observations ,, likely to reinvigorate my own editorial contributions to Wikipedia where haven't added anything for quite some time now Bruce [username: bruceanthro] On Sat, 8/3/14, Janet Reid lucych...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia To: cfrank...@halonetwork.net, Wikimedia Australia Chapter wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Received: Saturday, 8 March, 2014, 10:52 PM On 8 March 2014 21:54, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: For what it's worth, this is something I thought about a lot during my time involved with WMAU. I don't think an Indigenous language Wikipedia is going to be viable in the short term. It would be nice for there to be a way to recognise Aboriginal perspectives. Citing is likely to be a challenge. Once I showed some community women in Maree the page for MareeIt said her language was extinct. She said it was not. I posted to the talk page that local people did still speak the language.But the source was a living person whereas the extinction was citing a published book. Is there a different kind of wiki project which could accommodate that kind of perspective/source.Is it possible to make articles which are relevant in their relevant languages? Not make a full wikipedia but capture descriptions of communities and places in the relevant language? just a thought j -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Creation of Noongar (Aboriginal) Wikipedia
Interesting that the question about whether oral history was a valid source came up at yesterday`s Paralympics workshop in Melbourne (great day by the way for anyone who can get to today`s session). If someone publishes an oral history do they usually verify facts before publishing? We thought not. Cheers, Pru Pru Mitchell pru.mitch...@gmail.com On 8 Mar 2014, at 11:37 pm, Andrew Owens orderinchao...@gmail.com wrote: that's a very valid point. I heard something a while ago about an initiative between India and South Africa supported by WMF which was collecting oral information from elders in those places in such a way that it could be used as a verifiable source on Wikipedia on topics not readily covered by regular secondary sources. kindest regards Andrew On 8 March 2014 19:52, Janet Reid lucych...@gmail.com wrote: On 8 March 2014 21:54, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: For what it's worth, this is something I thought about a lot during my time involved with WMAU. I don't think an Indigenous language Wikipedia is going to be viable in the short term. It would be nice for there to be a way to recognise Aboriginal perspectives. Citing is likely to be a challenge. Once I showed some community women in Maree the page for Maree It said her language was extinct. She said it was not. I posted to the talk page that local people did still speak the language. But the source was a living person whereas the extinction was citing a published book. Is there a different kind of wiki project which could accommodate that kind of perspective/source. Is it possible to make articles which are relevant in their relevant languages? Not make a full wikipedia but capture descriptions of communities and places in the relevant language? just a thought j ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
